Trickster Cleric with one level of rogue or bard?

[Dalebert]

Help me decide. I'm leaning toward rogue at the moment but... I've been invited to a game to replace the party rogue but they don't have a cleric or a druid; just a bard for healing and other support. I'm already playing a druid elsewhere and I really like the trickster domain. Rogue would get me great skills compared to crappy cleric choices along with stealth and sneak attack that both synergize well with trickster abilities. It also gets me double prof in two skills at first level. I would pretty much always be rolling stealth with double prof and advantage! The illusion of myself gives me advantage just about any time I want it for sneak attacks though it will always be just a +1d6 as I plan to stay cleric beyond. I could eventually get a breastplate that won't interfere with stealth.

Alternatively, I could go bard and still get good skills including stealth, but not at double proficiency. The things that just fit well with a trickster cleric are things like Silent Image and Minor Illusion. It would be more MAD which is frustrating but I could deal with it somewhat by just avoiding spells that require attack rolls or saves. I'd only have a few 1st level ones anyway though they would be handy forever I think. I would also have full spellcaster slots despite multiclassing.

I'm anticipating a question--how do you want to play this character? What roll(s) do you want to fill? I definitely picture him as a criminal and involved in a rogue guild of some sort regardless of which way I go. I imagine he started involved in a crime guild and cohorts there recognized potential in him (high WIS?) for the divine. If I go bard, I will be a roguish one. I kind of pictured him being okay in a fight which is partly what makes rogue attractive, but it's not that huge a difference--an extra d6 from sneak attack. Never any extra attacks. Neither cleric nor bard gives good attack cantrips, not that they should. So maybe I shouldn't let that impact my decision very much. I can really enjoy a support role if I am able to do it well and I think the combo of cleric spells and my skill list, being crazy sneaky and manipulative, would help a lot with that.

It's pretty much one or the other. The skill choices of clerics just don't fit my character concept at all so that one level seems to be just about the sacrifice I'm willing to make and a lot of bang for the buck.

[Ashrym]

Rogue for expertise and an extra skill unless inspiring allies is part of your character concept.

[Dalebert]

Rogue for expertise and an extra skill unless inspiring allies is part of your character concept.

We already have a full bard who will do it better. However, I would be the only one who could actually inspire him. :)

[Thrathgnar]

I would go rogue since you already have a bard. Rogue gets some good stuffs

[Thrathgnar]

I'd go full rouge with maybe a dip in cleric if you are really bent on it

[Ashrym]

We already have a full bard who will do it better. However, I would be the only one who could actually inspire him. :)

If it fits your concept then go with it. You don't need expertise and can use guidance plus a bonus skill for bard, and more cantrips opens up some interesting choices.

Bard doesn't slow down your spell slot progression or cost you a 7th level spell slot when you hit level 20 either.

[Dalebert]

I would go rogue since you already have a bard. Rogue gets some good stuffs


I'd go full rouge with maybe a dip in cleric if you are really bent on it

I guess this is what I have to be prepared for when I say "help me decide", but that is simply not my character concept. When I asked "A or B" I didn't mean "Q". :)

I started out wanting to play a cleric and trickster was the type I picked as seeming super fun and having some neat abilities. Also, this is in line with what the party needs. In fact they didn't demand it, but they asked me very kindly to play either a cleric or druid. They need a healer/support class pretty badly and I'm very glad to fill that role. They also just happen to be losing a rogue, though they haven't found his skills as useful as a healer/support character, so it's icing that I could fill that role too to some extent, at least in the being stealthy for scouting, finding and disarming traps, picking locks, etc. I can fulfill that role as either a rogue or a bard. But even better, starting as rogue or bard gets me skills that fit better with a trickster cleric who worships a trickster deity.

[Thrathgnar]

I guess this is what I have to be prepared for when I say "help me decide", but that is simply not my character concept. When I asked "A or B" I didn't mean "Q". :)

I started out wanting to play a cleric and trickster was the type I picked as seeming super fun and having some neat abilities. Also, this is in line with what the party needs. They need a healer/support class pretty badly and I'm very glad to fill that role. They also just happen to be losing a rogue, so it's icing that I could fill that role too to some extent, at least in the being stealthy for scouting, finding and disarming traps, picking locks, etc. I can fulfill that as either a rogue or a bard. But even better, starting as rogue or bard gets me skills that fit better with a trickster cleric who worships a trickster deity.

Ok that makes sense i think rogue is the better dip over bard :)

[Ashrym]

As long as option "Q" is available, you could always play a pure rogish lore bard with a priest background who worships the trickster deity. Then run around being the priest of.

[Dalebert]

Rogue Pros
* Expertise, particularly in stealth which synergizes crazily with Blessing of the Trickster (adv on stealth)
* One more skill
* Sneak attack dmg +1d6
* DEX is a better save prof than CHA DERP! They both get DEX saves!
* Mildly better weapon choices (hand crossbows seem fun) DERP! They have the same weapon profs!
* Less MAD. In particular, I want a good DEX on top of needing WIS and don't really want to invest a lot in CHA which would be one of my save profs as a bard.
* Combined with Charlatan background, gets me three trickery-ish tool profs--thieves tools, disguise kit, and forgery kit.
note: I get disguise self as a cleric spell so a disguise kit is maybe not so useful really. And forgery sounds awesome but I have a hard time imagining when I'd use it. Meanwhile, I could get thieve's tools prof as a bard with a slight background change.

Bard Pros
Full spell slot progression (which also means extra 7th level spell eventually)
Four extra fairly useful spells known, including Silent Image which is a favorite and fits the character concept perfectly
Two extra cantrips known, including Minor Illusion which is my favorite and fits the character concept perfectly
Inspiration, which can be used on the other bard, the only character who can't benefit from inspiration right now

[Shadow]

Rogue Pros
* Expertise, particularly in stealth which synergizes crazily with Blessing of the Trickster (adv on stealth)
* One more skill
* DEX is a better save prof than CHA DERP! They both get DEX saves!
* Mildly better weapon choices (hand crossbows seem fun) DERP! They have the same weapon profs!
* Less MAD. In particular, I want a good DEX on top of needing WIS and don't really want to invest a lot in CHA which would be one of my save profs as a bard.
* Combined with Charlatan background, gets me three trickery-ish tool profs--thieves tools, disguise kit, and forgery kit.
note: I get disguise self as a cleric spell so a disguise kit is maybe not so useful really. And forgery sounds awesome but I have a hard time imagining when I'd use it. Meanwhile, I could get thieve's tools prof as a bard with a slight background change.

Bard Pros
Full spell slot progression (which also means extra 7th level spell eventually)
Four extra fairly useful spells known, including Silent Image which is a favorite and fits the character concept perfectly
Two extra cantrips known, including Minor Illusion which is my favorite and fits the character concept perfectly
Inspiration, which can be used on the other bard, the only character who can't benefit from inspiration right now

Probably not what you're interested in, but worth mentioning just in case:
If you dip three levels instead of one, and go arcane trickster, you get both the extra cantrips and the extra spells known that you want/like, and these three levels still count as one of caster progression.

[Dalebert]

Probably not what you're interested in, but worth mentioning just in case:
If you dip three levels instead of one, and go arcane trickster, you get both the extra cantrips and the extra spells known that you want/like, and these three levels still count as one of caster progression.

Yeah, I already decided I don't want to dip that far, but no harm in mentioning. I'm actually leaning pretty hard toward the bard now. I feel like keeping the extra spell slots and the extra spell diversity will be the best in the long run. I mean, how freaking stealthy do I need to be, right? :) And an extra d6 sneak attack? Nice, but I'm never going to be much of a combatant anyway and it will never scale like spells will.

I just noted that Criminal bkgd gets me both Disguise Kit and Thieve's Tools as well as two skills I wanted anyway, and it's the closest fit for my character conception so that's just about perfect.

[TheOOB]

As yourself, is spending half your career without your most powerful spells worth having bonuses on a few skills, especially since you could probabally use your spell slots to help with those skills?

It may in fact be worth it to you, but keep in mind what you're losing.

[Dalebert]

As yourself, is spending half your career without your most powerful spells worth having bonuses on a few skills, especially since you could probabally use your spell slots to help with those skills?

Well, technically I'm still delayed access to my most powerful spells by one level. I'll be getting access to cleric spells one level later, but at least I'll have full spell slots for my character level and that along with the extra bard 1 versatility (including some tricksterish spells) was not worth it to be super extra good at stealth and thieve's tools which will probably generally be over-kill anyway, especially when I also have guidance! And other than that it was one extra skill that I didn't need that much and a d6 of sneak attack damage. Albeit, I'd have been able to finagle that sneak attack damage a lot using Invoke Duplicity but that was never going to scale at all so it won't be missed much.

But changing out the entire array of crappy cleric skills for roguish skills (which I can also get as bard)? Priceless! :)

Here's a stupid question of semantics. Is it accurate to say I'm "dipping" bard when I wasn't yet a cleric or is it more accurate to say I'm a 1st level bard dipping 19 levels of cleric? :smallbiggrin:

[TheOOB]

Well, technically I'm still delayed access to my most powerful spells by one level. I'll be getting access to cleric spells one level later, but at least I'll have full spell slots for my character level and that along with the extra bard 1 versatility (including some tricksterish spells) was not worth it to be super extra good at stealth and thieve's tools which will probably generally be over-kill anyway, especially when I also have guidance! And other than that it was one extra skill that I didn't need that much and a d6 of sneak attack damage. Albeit, I'd have been able to finagle that sneak attack damage a lot using Invoke Duplicity but that was never going to scale at all so it won't be missed much.

But changing out the entire array of crappy cleric skills for roguish skills (which I can also get as bard)? Priceless! :)

Here's a stupid question of semantics. Is it accurate to say I'm "dipping" bard when I wasn't yet a cleric or is it more accurate to say I'm a 1st level bard dipping 19 levels of cleric? :smallbiggrin:

Technically nothing, you are spending half your career without your highest level of spells. Every odd numbered level starting at level 3 you'll be a spell level behind. Something to keep in mind.

A dip is a class you only take a small number(usually 3 or less) to add some abilities to a class.

[Ashrym]

Technically nothing, you are spending half your career without your highest level of spells. Every odd numbered level starting at level 3 you'll be a spell level behind. Something to keep in mind.

A dip is a class you only take a small number(usually 3 or less) to add some abilities to a class.

The slots are still there for use, and it is less than half because first level, 19th level, and every even level works out to a 60%/40% split. The impact is small because 40% of the levels are restricted by spells known available in 2 daily actions out of total daily actions when a lower level spell will simply be cast in a higher level slot.

There is a delay but the impact isn't as severe as posting a large number might indicate. MAD is a bigger drawback.

[Dalebert]

Technically nothing, you are spending half your career without your highest level of spells. Every odd numbered level starting at level 3 you'll be a spell level behind. Something to keep in mind.

Rrrright, but aren't you kind of stating the obvious here? The moment you say you're going to take a level dip, you're accepting being that many levels behind in your primary class. You're trading some "umph!" for some versatility. It's also sometimes a case of getting payoff now versus later to some extent. Like, that extra d6 of sneak attack dmg will seem fun and nice at early levels but will later feel trivial. I of course acknowledge these trade-offs. Are you expecting a light bulb to go off over my head, like "OMG! I won't get third level spells until level 6!" :smallwink:

BTW, I've actually statted up this character for all three options, the last one as pure cleric with a criminal background to get stealth and thieve's tools. Now that I've done that, I find myself going back to rogue dipping. Yes, I am a person who has issues with making decisions in case you haven't figured that out yet. :smallredface:

[Human Paragon 3]

You listed spells as a bard advantage but neglected to list sneak attack as a rogue advantage. Your damage will be that much better with the rogue dip. Also, do not underestimate cunning action. Free dash every turn means you are the fastest character in the game (and you can hide or disengage for free too, giving you a great tactical toolbox).

[Dalebert]

You listed spells as a bard advantage but neglected to list sneak attack as a rogue advantage. Your damage will be that much better with the rogue dip. Also, do not underestimate cunning action. Free dash every turn means you are the fastest character in the game (and you can hide or disengage for free too, giving you a great tactical toolbox).

I did, wow. That was just an oversight. It was a significant factor I was considering.

However, the rest of what you're talking about isn't obtained until level 2 so does not belong in the comparison.

Thank you to everyone for your input. I'm dreadful about making difficult decisions. Here's a side question that's related to the topic.

Let's say you have Invoke Duplicity going so you have a "perfect illusion" of yourself. Now let's say you cast Spiritual Weapon which shockingly does not require concentration. Would you allow it to appear that the illusion is attacking via the spiritual weapon and actually dealing damage? That's assuming they're in the same space, of course. Or would you insist that it's obviously two different effects?

I am strongly inclined to say this should fall under the Rule of Cool. Mechanically it's not huge in that you're not dealing any more damage than otherwise or anything like that, but it would certainly help to make your illusion more convincing and maybe buy you another round or so of them attacking the wrong "you". :smallbiggrin: