D&D 3.5/PF New Years Resolution

[Squirrel_Dude]

AKA an end around to asking "what are some ways you would like to see D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder improved in the coming year."

You have some magical powers to make changing core elements of 3.5 or PF actually possible. Time travel is also allowed, whatever. The only restriction is to try and be a bit creative with your resolutions. No responses consisting entirely of "give martials nice things," "nerf wizards," "make monks less OP," or "better editing," please.

[atemu1234]

AKA an end around to asking "what are some ways you would like to see D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder improved in the coming year."

You have some magical powers to make changing core elements of 3.5 or PF actually possible. Time travel is also allowed, whatever. The only restriction is to try and be a bit creative with your resolutions. No responses consisting entirely of "give martials nice things," "nerf wizards," "make monks less OP," or "better editing," please.

I'd like a wider variety of theurge PrCs, mostly for 3.5.

[Svata]

Warblade an Unarmed Swordsage in core in place of Fighter and Monk. Errata for ToB.

[Vhaidara]

Warblade an Unarmed Swordsage in core in place of Fighter and Monk. Real Errata for ToB.

ftfy

That Ssalarn has the time to write that shadowcaster port he wants to. That would be a great thing for me to toss on my Christmas list.

As far as personal resolutions, to do more silly things. For example, I'm currently making Eidolons for the purpose of making Summoners who are Yu-Gi-Oh duelists. I'm most of the way through a mid level Blue-Eyes White Dragon right now.

[Yael]

Warblade an Unarmed Swordsage in core in place of Fighter and Monk. Errata for ToB.

This.

Fix for Arcane Swordsage.

[Renen]

Id hunt down every poor casting/manifesting progression PrC and make them 9/10 or 10/10. Because some are really cool, but are taken by no one because CL is king.

[Vhaidara]

Id hunt down every poor casting/manifesting progression PrC and make them 9/10 or 10/10. Because some are really cool, but are taken by no one because CL is king.

You see, I would do the opposite I would make it so that, at best PrC advance 9/10, and those would be the ones with crappy main features. 10/10 casting sacrifices nothing when taken on a Wiz/Sorc. For example: Abjurant Champion. A Wizard takes Combat Casting and gets to level 10. Unless he's looking for some better PrC (almost certainly a 10/10), he has no reason not to take Abjurant Champion.

[Renen]

But thats the point of 3.5, multiclassing. Its opportunity cost. You "sacrifice" other potential options you dont take. Staying straight wizard shouldnt even be considered an option.
PF is a different story. There you actually get class features.

[PsyBomb]

Eliminate the Wizard and Sorceror entirely, replaced with six school-specific classes (Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage would be the first three of these).

Similar nerfs to Cleric, Druid, Psion, and any other full-caster/Manifester/etc

[137beth]

While not exactly what you asked for, one of my personal resolutions is to get around to writing reviews for the huge collection of d20 and pathfinder PDFs I have from OBS.


More in line with what the thread asks for, my 3.5 resolutions would be:
--For the fighter to be replaced in the PHB by a beginner-friendly fighter-fix (i.e., one without an extensive subsystem).
--For the warblade to be released earlier in one of the Completes (probably Complete Warrior)
--For the swordsage, crusader, and factotum to replace the monk, paladin, and rogue in the PHB.
--For species alignment to be left out of the Monster Manual (and its successors).
--A completely different spell resistance mechanic, probably involving partial effects, but with fewer or no ways to bypass it.
All of those also effectively apply to pathfinder, since changes to the core rules in 3.5 would most likely have been copied into pathfinder. 3.5 specific resolutions include:
--For the SpC and MiC to be altered to include everything after their releases and the stuff that was left out.
--For many of the 3.0/3.5 Faerun books to have been cancelled and replaced with Planescape books.


For pathfinder, I'd expect most resolutions from 3.5 would be carried over into pathfinder. But by pathfinder-specific resolutions would be:

--For Paizo to start identifying errata as errata, rules updates as rules updates, and FAQs is FAQs. In contrast to the current situation where 'FAQs' explicitly tell the reader to change the rules text to something contradictory to what it currently says, but they refuse to call it errata.
--For Golarion to be replaced by a campaign setting I can stand.
--For the sentence "This is a licensed 3rd party product using another corporations' IP, with permission." to be printed on the cover of the Core Rulebook, preferably in fine print. This would have no actual effect on the game, but might cause some of the snobbery and insults common on the Paizo forums to stop. Or at least be swapped out for another kind of snobbery and insults:smalltongue:

[Ssalarn]

Eliminate the Wizard and Sorceror entirely, replaced with six school-specific classes (Beguiler, Dread Necro, and Warmage would be the first three of these).

Similar nerfs to Cleric, Druid, Psion, and any other full-caster/Manifester/etc

This would be a good one (although I think the Psion already does that pretty well, at least the PF one).

I'd use my magic wand or whatever to shift everything into Tier 3 territory, as I feel like that's the ideal place for classes to be anyways, and is where games tend to be most enjoyable for myself and those I play with.

I'd replace Spell Resistance with something that's actually universally good for all classes, or just make it disappear altogether.

I'd clean up the mess that is the mounted combat rules (and Ride and Handle Animal by association) making them consolidated, simple, and easy to use. Part of this would probably involve changing them so that they follow the unwritten houserules everyone ends up using by default anyways :smalltongue:

I'd make Ultimate Psionics PFS legal, so more people would have opportunities to play with some of my favorite materials


That Ssalarn has the time to write that shadowcaster port he wants to. That would be a great thing for me to toss on my Christmas list.


I'd click send on this draft pitch to DSP to make Keledrath's dream come true....

[Squirrel_Dude]

This would be a good one (although I think the Psion already does that pretty well, at least the PF one).The PF one still has a generalist specialization, but I think that might be a good template for keeping the sorcerer and wizard in the game. Instead of replacing the wizard, just force specialization into beguiler, summoner, dread necro, etc., as suggested by psybomb.

I don't know what I would do with the sorcerer, though. I like the direction they were taken in PF when it comes to PCs. They're wizards, but have some unique powers all their own and some built-in roleplaying concept. At the same time, it's made it so that it's much harder to quickly add class caster levels to NPCs.

[Ssalarn]

The PF one still has a generalist specialization, but I think that might be a good template for keeping the sorcerer and wizard in the game. Instead of replacing the wizard, just force specialization into beguiler, summoner, dread necro, etc.
***

I really hated that PF turned "Specialization" into "a free slot that you can give up to ready a prohibited spell". I'm very much in the same boat as you as wishing that being a "specialist" really meant that you are a "specialist" and are more narrowly focused into a particular field.

Another thing I'd do if I had my magic wand is add prereqs to spells just like feats or maneuvers. It always irked me that a Fighter has to learn how to parry (Combat Expertise) before he can learn how to trip, but a wizard who's never cast a single cold spell can suddenly cast a powerful cold spell like polar ray. I'd prefer to see "Must know at least X levels worth of spells with the [cold] descriptor" or something similar.

[Squirrel_Dude]

I really hated that PF turned "Specialization" into "a free slot that you can give up to ready a prohibited spell". I'm very much in the same boat as you as wishing that being a "specialist" really meant that you are a "specialist" and are more narrowly focused into a particular field.

Another thing I'd do if I had my magic wand is add prereqs to spells just like feats or maneuvers. It always irked me that a Fighter has to learn how to parry (Combat Expertise) before he can learn how to trip, but a wizard who's never cast a single cold spell can suddenly cast a powerful cold spell like polar ray. I'd prefer to see "Must know at least X levels worth of spells with the [cold] descriptor" or something similar.You could probably just follow in the template of Bo9S or PoW and require knowledge of lower level maneuvers spells in a discipline school to gain access to higher level ones.

[Vhaidara]

You could probably just follow in the template of Bo9S or PoW and require knowledge of lower level maneuvers spells in a discipline school to gain access to higher level ones.

That wouldn't accomplish anything. It works for initiators because there are so few maneuvers. But for any given level and any given school, there are at least three spells for every maneuver (not as bad in PF, worse in 3.5). I mean, if you are taking a 6th level conjuration spell, how many conjuration spells will you have already learned?

Also, this change does almost nothing to wizards (scrolls into spellbook to fill out schools), but destroys sorcerers, basically restricting each sorcerer to a single school.

[Ssalarn]

That wouldn't accomplish anything. It works for initiators because there are so few maneuvers. But for any given level and any given school, there are at least three spells for every maneuver (not as bad in PF, worse in 3.5). I mean, if you are taking a 6th level conjuration spell, how many conjuration spells will you have already learned?

Also, this change does almost nothing to wizards (scrolls into spellbook to fill out schools), but destroys sorcerers, basically restricting each sorcerer to a single school.

If I were going to do what Squirrel_Dude suggested and I wanted it to impact Sorcerers and Wizards equally, I'd probably make it so that the Wizard has to have the lower level qualifying spells actively memorized; so a wizard who wanted to memorize a fireball spell that day would have to have at least one burning hands and scorching ray spell memorized, for example.

Realistically though, I think just killing the Wizard in its current incarnation and chopping up the schools so that you've got Beguiler (illusion/enchantment), Warmage (evocation/transmutation), Dread Necromancer (Necromancy), etc. would be the better way to go; then their later spells make sense by default since they're part of the character's field of specialization.

[Vhaidara]

If I were going to do what Squirrel_Dude suggested and I wanted it to impact Sorcerers and Wizards equally, I'd probably make it so that the Wizard has to have the lower level qualifying spells actively memorized; so a wizard who wanted to memorize a fireball spell that day would have to have at least one burning hands and scorching ray spell memorized, for example.

See, now that's just mean, since I feel that would hit low OP spells (like Fireball) more than higher OP spells


Realistically though, I think just killing the Wizard in its current incarnation and chopping up the schools so that you've got Beguiler (illusion/enchantment), Warmage (evocation/transmutation), Dread Necromancer (Necromancy), etc. would be the better way to go; then their later spells make sense by default since they're part of the character's field of specialization.

I would probably go
Beguiler (illusion/Enchantment, can avoid immunity to mind affecting + true seeing)
Warmage (Evocation and blasting + BFC conjuration)
Summoner (Summoning conjuration)
Dread Necromancer (Divination)
Morphic (Transmutation) [more gish-styled]
[Name Pending] (Divination/Abjuration)
Wizard (unspecialized, but only has Bard casting progression, plus crafting and other such utility)

[Ssalarn]

I would probably go
Beguiler (illusion/Enchantment, can avoid immunity to mind affecting + true seeing)
Warmage (Evocation and blasting + BFC conjuration)
Summoner (Summoning conjuration)
Dread Necromancer (Divination)
Morphic (Transmutation) [more gish-styled]
[Name Pending] (Divination/Abjuration)
Wizard (unspecialized, but only has Bard casting progression, plus crafting and other such utility)

You know, the Wizard could just be the Divination/Abjuration specialist. Gandalf on the bridge reciting the names of ancient powers to keep the balrog at bay, the old man peering into his crystal ball to scry a faraway host - most of the imagery that is iconic to the Wizard can be found in those two schools. You could even keep the crafting there as well, since that synergizes well thematically with both schools.

[Vhaidara]

Maybe, but at the same time, I wanted to keep a slower progression generalist.

Maybe call the Abjuration/Divination the Sage?

[Ssalarn]

Maybe, but at the same time, I wanted to keep a slower progression generalist.

Maybe call the Abjuration/Divination the Sage?

That works.

[PsyBomb]

I think I'd like 6-level progression being the typical (PF Bard is pretty ideal), with a short list of 7+ effects meant as DM plot points. MAYBE some kind of PrC that allows access to 7ths on a TERRIBLE frame (read as: d4s, 2+Int Skills, good Will, and spellcasting in total).

EDIT: I think I'm going to start a new thread on this line of thought, we've already taken up a lot of room here.

[Vhaidara]

I think I'd like 6-level progression being the typical (PF Bard is pretty ideal), with a short list of 7+ effects meant as DM plot points. MAYBE some kind of PrC that allows access to 7ths on a TERRIBLE frame (read as: d4s, 2+Int Skills, good Will, and spellcasting in total).

So...3.5 Sorcerer?

[PsyBomb]

So...3.5 Sorcerer?

Yeah, though I did mean that in a PF environment. Literally below-bottom HP and everything.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, though I did mean that in a PF environment. Literally below-bottom HP and everything.

Honestly, I would take it a step further if you want to discourage players from using it (3.5 Sorcerer proved that people are willing to deal with the for 7+). I'm talking like, every level in the class, you take -2 to a physical ability score as your research takes a toll on your body.

[PsyBomb]

Honestly, I would take it a step further if you want to discourage players from using it (3.5 Sorcerer proved that people are willing to deal with the for 7+). I'm talking like, every level in the class, you take -2 to a physical ability score as your research takes a toll on your body.

In a PF environment, you'd be giving up 8-10 levels of class features to get it. That's plenty steep. In 3.5, you'd need something harsh (though losing 20 points of physical ability scores would be more than even I'd demand)

Anyway, new thread posted for this discussion, we can return to OTHER New Year's Wishes

[Squirrel_Dude]

Because I didn't post one earlier, here is my new years resolution for 3.5/PF. I've got a bunch, but I'll start with this one:

Has anyone here played Shadowrun? If you have, you know the game doesn't have character classes, though it does have character archetypes.

For those that aren't familiar with it: Archetypes are suggestions for what a standard team of Shadowrunners will need. Players aren't required to pick one, and they don't limit the abilities you can select at character creation. At character generation characters either pick priorities or use build points to create whatever character they see fit. Most characters start out at something that approaching level 5 or 6 characters in Pathfinder. The rules are simple: Get what you want. That is it. Character advancement is handled by the expenditure of the experience point equivalent and in-game days spent training.

I want all of that in Pathfinder and 3.5

[Psyren]

My only wish would be to be allowed into all the closed portions of Pathfinder Unchained playtesting.

[P.F.]

All copies of Incantatrix PrC ripped form the books and burned. Servers hosting Incatatrix material electromagnetically depolarized. All remaining oral and handwritten information on the class officially deemed sketchy, highly abuse-able home-brew.

Alternately, Incantatrices could be preemptively eradicated via time travel.

Wizards start with 4 prohibited schools, and cast from the remaining four. Three if they are specialist; two if they take a double major.

Sorcerers spell list made up of spells from only two schools, or one school and one energy type.

Fighters (and other martial classes) get new feats which allow them to take interesting non-smashy-actions, improve their positional mobility, and/or increase their damage. Reform the entire tactical combat system so that special combat maneuvers are things that PC's want to use, not just things that DM's can use against the PC's. Fix mounted combat.

Class abilities for monks which give them fun things to do, like stunning enemies or giving them other status effects. Also better save DC's on the status effects, and feats/abilities to improve the DC's like spell fist focus etc. Better defensive abilities. Certain monk weapons upgraded to exotic weapons which other classes might ever want to use, but which monks get automatically.

Something to make a fighter-mage or gish that actually both casts spells and swings a sword, instead of just bastardizing the magic system.

Wow that's a long list.

[atemu1234]

All copies of Incantatrix PrC ripped form the books and burned. Servers hosting Incatatrix material electromagnetically depolarized. All remaining oral and handwritten information on the class officially deemed sketchy, highly abuse-able home-brew.

Alternately, Incantatrices could be preemptively eradicated via time travel.

Wizards start with 4 prohibited schools, and cast from the remaining four. Three if they are specialist; two if they take a double major.

Sorcerers spell list made up of spells from only two schools, or one school and one energy type.

Fighters (and other martial classes) get new feats which allow them to take interesting non-smashy-actions, improve their positional mobility, and/or increase their damage. Reform the entire tactical combat system so that special combat maneuvers are things that PC's want to use, not just things that DM's can use against the PC's. Fix mounted combat.

Class abilities for monks which give them fun things to do, like stunning enemies or giving them other status effects. Also better save DC's on the status effects, and feats/abilities to improve the DC's like spell fist focus etc. Better defensive abilities. Certain monk weapons upgraded to exotic weapons which other classes might ever want to use, but which monks get automatically.

Something to make a fighter-mage or gish that actually both casts spells and swings a sword, instead of just bastardizing the magic system.

Wow that's a long list.

So, "nerf wizards and nice things for martials"?

[P.F.]

So, "nerf wizards and nice things for martials"?

I would characterize it as "make both wizards and martials more fun to play."

[Vhaidara]

Sorcerers spell list made up of spells from only two schools, or one school and one energy type.

First one, maybe, second one HELL NO! Do you realize how crippling it is to be limited to one energy type?



Something to make a fighter-mage or gish that actually both casts spells and swings a sword, instead of just bastardizing the magic system.

So...Duskblade/Magus?

[P.F.]

First one, maybe, second one HELL NO! Do you realize how crippling it is to be limited to one energy type?

Superheroes do it all the time and it works just fine for them.


So...Duskblade/Magus?

Yeah, the trouble is that multiclassing in AD&D (from whence cometh the Gish) made it possible to be both a full caster and a full fighter, and you just advance more slowly. It's similar to gestalt characters, but less so. Almost as if one could take the Eldritch Knight PrC without frontloading the -3 levels in both classes, so you end up as essentially Fighter 17/Wizard 17 ECL 20, but don't have to start out with a sub-par BAB and casting 2nd or 3rd-level meh while your friends are laying down 4th- and 5th-level nukes.

Because essentially, both of the classes you mentioned are 2/3's of a martial and 2/3's caster. However, since you can only really bring one of those to bear at a time, you end up with a character that is about 2/3's as good as either, maybe 3/4ths, total. Now I know there are ways and there are Ways, but essentially the class needs to be about 4/5ths as good a both things as both constituent classes (to the extent that a level of fighter can be considered equivalent to a level of caster at all).

I'd like to see a class that has the 1/1 attack progression, but fewer bonus feats/class abilities than a full martial; and either wizard's casting progression but with a limited spell list, or a broader spell list but with more constrained spells known and spells/day. Basically a class with the BAB to actually hit stuff without using a bunch of gimmicky features or buffs first and also the ability to cast spells when appropriate, maybe not the premiere top-level wizard spells, but the option for some at-level BfC or the occasional AoE/crowd control would be perfect.

The real trouble is that at higher levels, if the spellcasting is any good no one really wants to be a melee combatant at all anymore, only to take actions with all the import and power of spellcasting while upholding the appearance of a martial. So no sort of warrior mage will ever live up to my expectations as long as the primary casters (especially sorczards) are so far-and-away better than any other classes.

[Vhaidara]

Superheroes do it all the time and it works just fine for them.

Superheroes are all Plot powered. If a sorcerer is restricted to Fire spells, then anything with fire resist/immunity shuts them down hard.



However, since you can only really bring one of those to bear at a time

Have you read either of those classes? The entire point of them is that they use spells and weapons at the same time. Magus literally does TWF with a sword and a spell.