Warlocks, and the Spell Point Variant rule.

[Talin]

So I've been DM'ing my first 5e campaign, and so far everyone has had a blast playing in it, however the only real spellcaster we have in the group has been the Warlock and the off and on Wizard, EK, and Bard who only end up casting like 2 spells a session.

So I decided I'm going to start using the spell point variant rule for all the casters so that casting feels more "organic" and not so clunky and boxed. However this gave me an issue as I don't know how to make it work for the Warlock, I feel like they need to be able to do more than just "Two spells and done" seeing as they can decide how strong their spells are instead of "oh look 5th level fireball incoming no choice".

My question to you all is how many points should a Warlock be aloud?

[TheOOB]

The "two spells and done" approach is the point of the warlock. If you want more ability to cast spells in succession, you should play a wizard or a sorcerer. The warlock has amazing at will abilities and most their abilities recharge with a short rest, but they can't go nova like other casters. It's a balance thing, and letting them cast a number of spells would kind of defeat the purpose of the class. There's a reason the DMG doesn't allow for warlock spell points.

Also, an aside, the spell point system really screws over the sorcerer. Swapping slot levels is kind of their schtick.

[Talin]

The "two spells and done" approach is the point of the warlock. If you want more ability to cast spells in succession, you should play a wizard or a sorcerer. The warlock has amazing at will abilities and most their abilities recharge with a short rest, but they can't go nova like other casters. It's a balance thing, and letting them cast a number of spells would kind of defeat the purpose of the class. There's a reason the DMG doesn't allow for warlock spell points.

Also, an aside, the spell point system really screws over the sorcerer. Swapping slot levels is kind of their schtick.

As far as Sorcerer goes the Sorcery Point cost to create slots is equal to the Spell point cost of casting a spell (1st lvl cost 2 points, 2nd 3 points, 3rd 5 points and so on) so it really doesn't hurt them.


But I was just thinking with the Warlock to give him just enough points to cast his spell slots at highest level. So a 5th level Warlock with 2 spell slots that are equal to 3rd level spells would have only 10 points as opposed to the Wizard at the same level who has 27. And when I looked a bit more on it a level 20 Warlock would only have 28 points max, as opposed to a level 20 Wizard who has 133.

The general idea was to give them points so that they could ration the little amount of power they have, using enough points to cast spells at the lowest cost they could at times. Even on short rests they'd have to stop and catch a breather 5 times before barely being able to outcast the Wizard by days end, (and even then if they were to be blasting constant 5th level spells the Wizard would only be short one cast) though the free level 6-9 spells once a day might be the only real problem.


I think the way I can sum it up is the Wizard and Warlock are having a foot race, the Warlock is clearly faster and can outrun the Wizard but runs out of breath very quickly. While the Wizard can just keep going all day, he may lose in the end of the day its just how to Warlock paces himself.

[Malifice]

As far as Sorcerer goes the Sorcery Point cost to create slots is equal to the Spell point cost of casting a spell (1st lvl cost 2 points, 2nd 3 points, 3rd 5 points and so on) so it really doesn't hurt them.


But I was just thinking with the Warlock to give him just enough points to cast his spell slots at highest level. So a 5th level Warlock with 2 spell slots that are equal to 3rd level spells would have only 10 points as opposed to the Wizard at the same level who has 27. And when I looked a bit more on it a level 20 Warlock would only have 28 points max, as opposed to a level 20 Wizard who has 133.

The warlocks spell points regenerate on a short rest. Just like his spell slots.

2-3 short rests per long rest = 2-3 times as many spell points.

Also: Mystic Arcanum.

[Talin]

The warlocks spell points regenerate on a short rest. Just like his spell slots.

2-3 short rests per long rest = 2-3 times as many spell points.

Also: Mystic Arcanum.

Yea I am already noticing the Mystic Arcanum issue as I mentioned above. if it was just point for point casting with the cantrips and a few invocations it would be fine. The big thing on this one is the Warlock in the party found out a way to true name Orcus and now his powers are standalone, so i'm tempted to strip him of any future benefits of the pact and take a few things away from him and basically make a homebrew class for him now.

[Malifice]

Yea I am already noticing the Mystic Arcanum issue as I mentioned above. if it was just point for point casting with the cantrips and a few invocations it would be fine. The big thing on this one is the Warlock in the party found out a way to true name Orcus and now his powers are standalone, so i'm tempted to strip him of any future benefits of the pact and take a few things away from him and basically make a homebrew class for him now.

Why homebrew a whole class? I'd personally let him continue to advance 'safe' in the knowledge that he has his own demonic master by the balls.

Which he doesnt. It just suits Orcus's plans to let him think he knows his true name... for now.

Mortals are easily tricked and all.

[Talin]

Why homebrew a whole class? I'd personally let him continue to advance 'safe' in the knowledge that he has his own demonic master by the balls.

Which he doesnt. It just suits Orcus's plans to let him think he knows his true name... for now.

Mortals are easily tricked and all.

Ooooooooooooooh Clever idea.

[Dalebert]

As far as Sorcerer goes the Sorcery Point cost to create slots is equal to the Spell point cost of casting a spell (1st lvl cost 2 points, 2nd 3 points, 3rd 5 points and so on) so it really doesn't hurt them.

I thought what he was trying to say is that you're giving one of their (very few) class features to all spellcasters. So the comparison would be that you've decided to let all spellcasters have spellbooks and add new spells to it that they find and prepare them. You've just devalued the wizard class feature. Or you've decided to let everyone get sneak attacks. You've just devalued the rogue feature.

The classes were designed with a certain number of features of a certain power level. So they paid an opportunity cost for the features of their respective classes. The sorcerer was designed with that as a feature in place of ... who knows what? So he's relatively weaker now.


Ooooooooooooooh Clever idea.

I assume your players don't follow this forum. :)

[iceifur]

My question to you all is how many points should a Warlock be aloud?

Just give warlocks 2 spell points per level for levels 1-10, and 1 spell point per level for levels 11-20. It works out to 30 spell points at 20th level, and is close enough while being easy to remember. The points are recovered when the warlock finishes a short or long rest, like normal.

Mystic Arcanum spells don't use spell slots, so they don't require spell points, either.

With this modification, a 20th-level warlock has an effective daily spell point total of 133, just like a normal 20th-level spellcaster (30 base + 60 for the assumed two short rests + 43 for the free 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells from Mystic Arcanum).

The other question that pops up when converting to the spell point system is what to do for casters that have a recovery feature based on regaining spell slots (a land druid's Natural Recovery or a wizard's Arcane Recovery). When they use the feature, should they regain a number of spell points equal to their class level? Half their class level? Their spellcasting ability modifier + half their class level? Some other formula?

[Pramxnim]

Giving the Warlock a spell point progression that goes up to 30 like that will be a buff if you let them control the level of their spell slots instead of having to use the highest level slot each time. Otherwise it doesn't do anything.

For recovery mechanics, I suggest letting them recover spell points equal to their level because that's the most efficient use of the feature when converting from slots to points, equivalent to recovering a number of 1st level slots equal to half their class level.

Sorcerers actually get a slight buff with the spell point system, since they don't have to spend a bonus action to convert sorcery points into spell points, and the system allows enough flexibility for spell casting that they can concentrate their sorcery point use on metamagic. You could buff them further by combining the two point systems and just let the sorcerer use his spell points to fuel metamagic. It fits the flavour of a spell caster who burns up a lot of energy to do spectacular things with his spell.

[iceifur]

Giving the Warlock a spell point progression that goes up to 30 like that will be a buff if you let them control the level of their spell slots instead of having to use the highest level slot each time.

That was the intention. Of course, the entire spell point system is a buff for spellcasters.


For recovery mechanics, I suggest letting them recover spell points equal to their level because that's the most efficient use of the feature when converting from slots to points, equivalent to recovering a number of 1st level slots equal to half their class level.

That was my thought. The only niggle is the wizard, where you have to either set a minimum of 2 spell points recovered at 1st level, or move the Arcane Recovery feature to 2nd level. 1 spell point does nothing for you if you only have 1st-level spells, since it takes 2 points to cast them.


You could buff [sorcerers] further by combining the two point systems and just let the sorcerer use his spell points to fuel metamagic. It fits the flavour of a spell caster who burns up a lot of energy to do spectacular things with his spell.

Agreed.

[Ohnoeszz]

I'd be very interested in how this turns out. Can you post an update after a couple sessions?

[Talin]

I thought what he was trying to say is that you're giving one of their (very few) class features to all spellcasters. So the comparison would be that you've decided to let all spellcasters have spellbooks and add new spells to it that they find and prepare them. You've just devalued the wizard class feature. Or you've decided to let everyone get sneak attacks. You've just devalued the rogue feature.

The classes were designed with a certain number of features of a certain power level. So they paid an opportunity cost for the features of their respective classes. The sorcerer was designed with that as a feature in place of ... who knows what? So he's relatively weaker now.



I assume your players don't follow this forum. :)

I advise reading the DMG again and seeing that the spell points were made with Sorcerers in mind still, with Sorcery points they can still make more spell slots per day, they didn't lose anything.

[Talin]

Just give warlocks 2 spell points per level for levels 1-10, and 1 spell point per level for levels 11-20. It works out to 30 spell points at 20th level, and is close enough while being easy to remember. The points are recovered when the warlock finishes a short or long rest, like normal.

Mystic Arcanum spells don't use spell slots, so they don't require spell points, either.

With this modification, a 20th-level warlock has an effective daily spell point total of 133, just like a normal 20th-level spellcaster (30 base + 60 for the assumed two short rests + 43 for the free 6th, 7th, 8th, and 9th-level spells from Mystic Arcanum).

The other question that pops up when converting to the spell point system is what to do for casters that have a recovery feature based on regaining spell slots (a land druid's Natural Recovery or a wizard's Arcane Recovery). When they use the feature, should they regain a number of spell points equal to their class level? Half their class level? Their spellcasting ability modifier + half their class level? Some other formula?

The Variant rule in in the DMG on page 288, and for the effects like Natural Recover, and Arcane Recovery. So the way I see it is like so.

Natural Recovery "Starting at 2nd level, you can regain some of your magical energy by sitting in meditation and communing with nature. During a short rest, you choose expended spell slots to recover. The spell slots can have a combined level that is equal to or less than half your druid level (rounded up), and none of the slots can be 6th level or higher." So what I see here is a 4th level druid instead of getting back a 2nd level slot or two 1st level slots she would instead get back enough points to cast a 2nd level spell or two 1st level spells which would be 3-4 points, and for ease of play I'd say 4 points (enough to cast the two 1st levels). SO by the way I see it here she gets back spell points equal to her level.

The Wizards feature for all mechanical purposes is essentially the same as the druid getting back Spell points equal to his level.

[Talin]

Giving the Warlock a spell point progression that goes up to 30 like that will be a buff if you let them control the level of their spell slots instead of having to use the highest level slot each time. Otherwise it doesn't do anything.

For recovery mechanics, I suggest letting them recover spell points equal to their level because that's the most efficient use of the feature when converting from slots to points, equivalent to recovering a number of 1st level slots equal to half their class level.

Sorcerers actually get a slight buff with the spell point system, since they don't have to spend a bonus action to convert sorcery points into spell points, and the system allows enough flexibility for spell casting that they can concentrate their sorcery point use on metamagic. You could buff them further by combining the two point systems and just let the sorcerer use his spell points to fuel metamagic. It fits the flavour of a spell caster who burns up a lot of energy to do spectacular things with his spell.

I probably should have read everything instead of responding in order and answering everyone, this is pretty close to what I have said so far. I'm going to keep the Sorcery Points separate from the "Mana Pool" however, and as far as the Warlock goes I decided that they get JUST enough points to cast their spell slots at the highest level available which cap stoned them at 28 points, and even then if they are conservative they might only squeeze out 1 or 2 extra spells a rest.