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View Full Version : The "Give The Answer to the Players" gag, and the dilemma it causes



Dachimotsu
2015-01-02, 11:00 AM
So, I've got this cool idea for a trap-puzzle, where the heroes walk up to a door, and I immediately tell them that there's a key sitting on the floor in front of it. Right away, the players will assume that using the key is what I, the malicious DM, want them to do, so they will intentionally ignore it and try to find another way past the door. Humor unfolds as every attempt they make to pass the locked door is met with painful reverberation via randomly-generated traps that foil them time and time again, all the way up until they give in and use the key, which opens the door without a hitch.

On paper, it sounds amazing, but there are few issues, all of which have to do with the unpredictability of players. I have one player who is, for lack of a less-insulting description, "kind of perky". If he saw the key that the others are already assuming is a trap, he might make his character use it immediately just to piss them off, or because he's ready to take the trap head-on for his allies, with zero regard for their pleas and warnings. If he succeeds, the puzzle is undone, and the players wonder what the point of me leaving the key there was. Granted, I could do a double-take where I keep giving them keys, only to make one of them an actual trap and catch them off-guard, but I've lost the opportunity to use the original puzzle idea because the players will know what to do now.

The other problem is the "player reward" factor that solving this puzzle causes. Is it wise to reward a player for reckless behavior, while punishing others for exercising caution? Doesn't that just encourage said "perky" character to keep screwing his allies? Having such a person in the party makes it difficult to challenge everyone with a puzzle that attacks a certain type of thinking, since he's on the other extreme.

Solaris
2015-01-02, 11:19 AM
Give them several keys thematically linked to the answer to a riddle, and then inscribe a riddle over the lock. That way while it may still be fairly obvious, they can at least feel they've done some thinking to get through the puzzle.

Dachimotsu
2015-01-02, 11:26 AM
Give them several keys thematically linked to the answer to a riddle, and then inscribe a riddle over the lock. That way while it may still be fairly obvious, they can at least feel they've done some thinking to get through the puzzle.

Given this advice, the only thing I can think of is to offer them three keys (bronze, silver, and gold). Then, in big, bold letters over the keyhole, it reads "THE GOLD KEY IS THE CORRECT ONE", leading them to realize that there is, in fact, a puzzle to solve, but regarding the true solution as a fabrication.

Altair_the_Vexed
2015-01-02, 11:41 AM
Given this advice, the only thing I can think of is to offer them three keys (bronze, silver, and gold). Then, in big, bold letters over the keyhole, it reads "THE GOLD KEY IS THE CORRECT ONE", leading them to realize that there is, in fact, a puzzle to solve, but regarding the true solution as a fabrication.

Change that to "The gold key is the right one", and arrange the keys from left to right: gold, silver, bronze. :smallbiggrin:

SimonMoon6
2015-01-02, 12:06 PM
The way I'd do this:

Have the key not be immediately apparent. Like, have it be under a door mat or on the lintel (where they have to search (DC 5) to find it). So, on the one hand, they're not sure if they did the amazing "find the key" plot point or if it's a little too obvious.

And it's the sort of thing that an actual person might do when hiding their key (which is what bugs me about most traps: no sane person would set them up the way they are usually set up... like I only want my home invaded by people smart enough to solve a fairly simple riddle).

Solaris
2015-01-02, 12:38 PM
Change that to "The gold key is the right one", and arrange the keys from left to right: gold, silver, bronze. :smallbiggrin:

I like this. Diabolically evil and patently obvious, yet sure to throw the characters off.

Gnome Alone
2015-01-02, 12:45 PM
And it's the sort of thing that an actual person might do when hiding their key (which is what bugs me about most traps: no sane person would set them up the way they are usually set up... like I only want my home invaded by people smart enough to solve a fairly simple riddle).

"Boss, we lost another new minion last night."
"Curses! What happened?"
"He fell into that spiked pit trap; y'know, the one that's right in front of the door to the courtyard."
"Blast! If only there were some other way."

turbo164
2015-01-02, 12:57 PM
Perhaps you could "hide" the key in a sea of Red Herrings. On the ground (or in a box/tray next to the door) is:

*The key that fits in the keyhole and opens the door
*Two small gems that look like they would fit into the eye sockets of the face carved into the door
*A scroll with a series of numbers that might correspond to the notched wheel on the door that can be spun
*A tarnished statuette of a preening chicken
*A stick covered in obscure runes
*A vial of Holy Water
*Crumbling remains of a dried plant that a Nature check can identify as a sprig of Juniper, tied with a ribbon
*A clay tablet that reads "Knock ye three lest ye be knocked by Gree"
*An hourglass filled with tiny blue pebbles
*A jar of salt
*A lockpick
*A small brass bell
etc

On the door are carvings, wheels, levers, doorknockers, runes, skulls, etc, with a welcome mat on the floor and a (nonliving) gargoyle looming overhead.

On the other side of the door is a mostly empty room. Inscribed on the walls are images of everything from outside, in every conceiveable combination (ie a stick figure pouring holy water on the chicken while spinning the wheel, a stick figure placing juniper in the skull while holding the hourglass, etc), as well as images of treasure chests brimming with jewels and flaming swords and the like. On the floor is one copper coin.

...the key opened the door, but would using the items in a different combination before trying the key have led to a different reward? Mwuhaha! :P (Maybe some of the "fake keys" can be sold for a nice reward at least? But if you don't want to reward reckless behavior, maybe you don't want to encourage the classic "stuff the adamantine door into our bag of holding" behavior either hehe)

LokiRagnarok
2015-01-02, 01:48 PM
I am reminded of this riddle:

http://www.goblinscomic.org/12222013/
The solution:
http://www.goblinscomic.org/01162014/

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-02, 03:34 PM
The other problem is the "player reward" factor that solving this puzzle causes. Is it wise to reward a player for reckless behavior, while punishing others for exercising caution? Doesn't that just encourage said "perky" character to keep screwing his allies? Having such a person in the party makes it difficult to challenge everyone with a puzzle that attacks a certain type of thinking, since he's on the other extreme.

Honestly? Fortune favors the bold, even by accident. I'd just let things play out as intended. If they luck out, they luck out. If they don't...They don't. He's likely to die anyway. As long as they are role playing it, eh, fine in my book.

Now, if the player has the tendency to run off with objects and charge headlong into danger risking everyone and this is annoying people OoC as they want to act as a group, talk to him about group cohesion and being more mindful of other players. And tell him to knock it off if he's doing it to piss others off, that sort of behavior should not be tolerated.

Personally, I'd consider putting down two keys, which must be used in conjunction with each other. The trap fries anyone who does it alone. But maybe that is a wee bit too much...

Milodiah
2015-01-02, 05:24 PM
Obviously the solution is to translate the riddle into the universal language of TTRPG players:

Monty Python references.

daemonaetea
2015-01-02, 05:56 PM
The way I'd do this:

Have the key not be immediately apparent. Like, have it be under a door mat or on the lintel (where they have to search (DC 5) to find it). So, on the one hand, they're not sure if they did the amazing "find the key" plot point or if it's a little too obvious.

And it's the sort of thing that an actual person might do when hiding their key (which is what bugs me about most traps: no sane person would set them up the way they are usually set up... like I only want my home invaded by people smart enough to solve a fairly simple riddle).

Reminds me of the favorite trick room I ever put before my players, a situation which the OP may be able to use elements of.

The players are breaking into an ancient mage's lab area. To get in, all they have to do is drop a small token, which has his emblem upon it and they got earlier in the adventure, into a slot in the door. The next room is a foyer, with an obviously trapped hallway leading further into the compound. In front of the hallway was a podium with nine slots, in a grid pattern, which the same emblem could be placed upon. They had no clues, so were mystified on what to do. They eventually set the emblem into one of the slots, summoned a monster, and bid it walk down the hallway. As soon as it reached the halfway point of the hallway, a door slid down, and noises could be heard beyond. Thirty seconds later, the door rises, and no more summon.

The solution? Just walk down the hallway, ignore the pedestal. The wizard who made this place wanted defenses, but nothing that would inconvenience him. So anyone who made it past the front door, and obviously had already stolen his emblem, would reach this room. Every slot on the pedestal corresponded to a different trap in the hallway. For every spot they tried the key in, it activated an additional trap in the hallway. The solution was to simply walk down the hallway, either immediately (as the wizard) or after sending a summon down it to reset it back to base by activating the traps.

Man, was I laughing. Funnily enough, they didn't seem to think it was so funny.


On the same theme of traps that are simple, or self inflicted, there's also the classic "clock is ticking down, pull the lever to reset" trap, which I also used on my players. Have the room look obviously trapped, but there isn't actually a trap. In your situation? Maybe a door with an ornate lock, and a dozen keys in front of it, and look trapped. None of the keys actually do anything, of course, the door isn't locked. How long will it take them to realize it, do you think?

the_david
2015-01-02, 06:41 PM
I never understood the need for riddles and puzzles in RPGs. They feel out of place to me. The same with traps, why would anyone boobytrap his own home? Would you?

I try to only add things that add something to the story. If you can make up a reason for that key to be there, add it. If not, don't add it.

jaydubs
2015-01-02, 07:19 PM
So, I've got this cool idea for a trap-puzzle, where the heroes walk up to a door, and I immediately tell them that there's a key sitting on the floor in front of it. Right away, the players will assume that using the key is what I, the malicious DM, want them to do, so they will intentionally ignore it and try to find another way past the door. Humor unfolds as every attempt they make to pass the locked door is met with painful reverberation via randomly-generated traps that foil them time and time again, all the way up until they give in and use the key, which opens the door without a hitch..

On paper, it sounds amazing, but there are few issues, all of which have to do with the unpredictability of players. I have one player who is, for lack of a less-insulting description, "kind of perky". If he saw the key that the others are already assuming is a trap, he might make his character use it immediately just to piss them off, or because he's ready to take the trap head-on for his allies, with zero regard for their pleas and warnings. If he succeeds, the puzzle is undone, and the players wonder what the point of me leaving the key there was. Granted, I could do a double-take where I keep giving them keys, only to make one of them an actual trap and catch them off-guard, but I've lost the opportunity to use the original puzzle idea because the players will know what to do now.

Unpredictability isn't a defect, it's a feature. Remember - the DM's job is not to write a script, which the players then follow. It's to present a situation, and to let the players decide how the story then unfolds.

Sometimes that means they solve the puzzle immediately. Sometimes they take forever on something simple. Trying to prevent that and steer players toward the "right" choices will eventually lead to railroading.

Also, even if they immediately figure it out and then wonder why the key was left out in the open, you can still work with that. Just look mischevious, and say "huh, that's an interesting question." It makes players jumpy and paranoid for quite awhile, even if nothing is going to happen.


The other problem is the "player reward" factor that solving this puzzle causes. Is it wise to reward a player for reckless behavior, while punishing others for exercising caution? Doesn't that just encourage said "perky" character to keep screwing his allies? Having such a person in the party makes it difficult to challenge everyone with a puzzle that attacks a certain type of thinking, since he's on the other extreme.

If the person is purposely trying to piss of his fellow players, that's a problem to solve out-of-character. But it's generally not a good idea to DM with the objective to teach people the "right" way to play. You're a DM, not a schoolmarm.

So I wouldn't worry at all, one way or the other, about what kind of messages are sent. Just put together an interesting and immersive campaign, and leave it at that.

Vitruviansquid
2015-01-02, 08:37 PM
In my experience, players enjoy sessions where lots of things get done and they feel like they're making a lot of progress through the plot or dungeon or whatever. They appreciate a lot less the sessions where the GM jerks them around and then shows them how silly or stupid they are (trust me, I've been there).

But I digress. The way I figure it, if they take the correct key and use it immediately, you might as well concede that they've beaten the puzzle and move on. After all, it wouldn't be very sporting if you didn't let the players win, right?

Solaris
2015-01-02, 09:07 PM
The same with traps, why would anyone boobytrap his own home? Would you?

You don't?
Huh.


I try to only add things that add something to the story. If you can make up a reason for that key to be there, add it. If not, don't add it.

As a general rule, traps and puzzles should go in places you don't want other people to go - not in places that you (the dungeon-maker) want to go. If they're someplace you want to go, they should be fairly nonlethal and have an off switch or some other means of bypassing them.

SimonMoon6
2015-01-03, 12:23 PM
As a general rule, traps and puzzles should go in places you don't want other people to go - not in places that you (the dungeon-maker) want to go. If they're someplace you want to go, they should be fairly nonlethal and have an off switch or some other means of bypassing them.

Traps are one things. Puzzles are a completely different matter.

Suppose I want to booby-trap my home so that anybody who tries to enter illegally gets killed. Fair enough. Now, suppose the trap has a riddle that lets you bypass all the traps if you can solve the riddle. Would you put that on your home? Would you want dumb crooks to be killed, but smart crooks... smart crooks, they can steal anything they want.

No.

Puzzles are just wrong.

Solaris
2015-01-03, 12:32 PM
Again, that depends on what you're protecting. Combination locks and computer passwords are a thing, after all.

If you're making a paladin's tomb and protecting his holy avenger, you'd want to make it so that it's a puzzle someone familiar with the paladin's exploits and/or religion could stand a reasonable chance of solving the puzzle. If it's the gates to Moria, you'd want to make it so only a friend could enter. Stuff like that. Puzzles aren't a replacement for a trap; they control access, not prevent access.

Milodiah
2015-01-04, 05:11 AM
But still, you end up with the issue that any smart person with access to a library could take a bit of time and crack your puzzle, regardless of their actual intent.

If you wouldn't be comfortable putting this stuff as your bank account's password (including the hints and everything) then it's not something that's going to be protecting an important entry point.

The only reason I've ever used a puzzle-locking-mechanism was because the owner of the tomb (who wasn't actually dead - he was a quasi-lich via Necropolitan template) wanted anyone who visited him to see his life-story through thematic puzzle solution (which of course happened to feature several powerful monsters and lethal traps) before they encountered him. After all, he was a "misunderstood" lieutenant in the biggest evil army to hit the kingdom in recent history, so most people came in a little bit biased against him.


Also, booby trapping your own home isn't entirely psychotic - so long as you're not in danger of one day forgetting to disarm it and taking yourself out. When I design a dungeon with one, usually I incorporate them into door locks so the actual key also disarms the trap (while unauthorized entry does not).

Nice way to give those Wizards the middle finger, too...by RAW, Knock just turns an un-openable door into an openable one, i.e. locks, welding, barring, deadbolts, chains, etc. Doesn't say anything about making it safe to open.

Zeofar
2015-01-04, 11:18 AM
On paper, it sounds amazing, but there are few issues, all of which have to do with the unpredictability of players. I have one player who is, for lack of a less-insulting description, "kind of perky". If he saw the key that the others are already assuming is a trap, he might make his character use it immediately just to piss them off, or because he's ready to take the trap head-on for his allies, with zero regard for their pleas and warnings. If he succeeds, the puzzle is undone, and the players wonder what the point of me leaving the key there was.


If your goal is consternation about the obvious solution being the correct one, doesn't this achieve it? And isn't the reaction to this solution possible if they responded to the "puzzle" in the way you wanted anyway?