Stat maximum houserule question

[mrumsey]

I have a player who hearkens back from the AD&D age. My dad...ahem...*THEY* may or may not have a huge difficulty overcoming the fact that a Halfling can, in fact, become as strong as a Half-Orc. So here is the question:

Does anyone see a huge balance issue with allowing the Racial Attribute Maximum to be 20+Racial modifier to help alleviate this? I am interested in hearing from everyone, but I frequently see @Odigity and @Eslin posting on balance issues (with differing views) so hearing from them could be useful.

I know this could hinder humans (maybe they get one 'chosen' attribute), but it might not as they aren't supposed to be as good as everyone else, but very flexible.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

You could make it 18 or 19 instead of 20 and not have to worry about balance, since the max modifier would still be the same.

[Demonic Spoon]

There's already a strong disincentive to making a strength-based halfling character - the lack of a racial bonus makes it worse than a half-orc. For that reason alone, you'll rarely see a 20-STR halfling character.

If you set the cap differently, you turn an already-suboptimal option into an outright bad one.


I would leave it as-is. If you do run into a 20-STR halfling and it is causing problems for you, fluff it as them using their strength more effectively/skillfully - e.g. the halfling isn't as strong as the half-orc, but he can wedge himself further underneath the rock allowing him to get more leverage in rolling it.

[Nagalipton]

I agree with Demonic Spoon.

I'm away from book but I believe that carrying capacity backs up what he is saying. A halfling is a small sized creature, and thus can't carry as much. Also they surely would need to use the optional DMG rules for climbing on larger creatures for anything involved in grappling. I've been telling my players that stats are less static representations of prowess, but more fluid abstractions of making use of what they have.

[mrumsey]

It has nothing to do with mechanics. In reality, the +1 means relatively little, and few people would ever roll a STR Halfling. However, this is all in his head. It comes from racial maximums and dwarves not being able to cast magic.."even using healing magic on them required you to bypass their resistance."

I'm not sure that raising the limits would hinder that much on normal character choice. I don't remember any of the Half-Orc's racials being tied to STR, or the Halfling's being tied to DEX. Do any racials have a distinct tie to an attribute, aside from cantrips?

How would a 22str orc be better enough than a 20str halfling to say it is a bad option? +1 to hit/dmg, but the halfling would have a higher dex by default (assuming equal attribute distribution). Since no class that loves STR hates Dex, it is a bit of a trade-off isn't it?

Obviously I am using Half-Orc/Halfling, but other inequalities could also exist.

Thank you everyone for commenting!

[Demonic Spoon]

How would a 22str orc be better enough than a 20str halfling to say it is a bad option? +1 to hit/dmg, but the halfling would have a higher dex by default (assuming equal attribute distribution). Since no class that loves STR hates Dex, it is a bit of a trade-off isn't it?


Any class likes one more than the other. If you're a strength-fighter, you care a whole lot more about taking your strength from 16 to 18 then taking your DEX from 12 to 14. Players will generally try to get their class' primary stat maxed out at some point.

Of course, a halfling capped at 20 can still take feats, but the fighter can take a bunch of bonus ASIs so they're likely to be hurt by this.


You're not likely to completely break the game this way (though I'd lean towards setting the base cap at 18 and increasing it to 20 for certain races). However, you do further penalize unusual races for particular classes just a bit more than they currently are.

[mrumsey]

However, you do further penalize unusual races for particular classes just a bit more than they currently are.

Sadly, I believe that is the fluff that my olde tyme dad is used to. Dwarves were better at fighting than Halflings who were better than Humans at thieving. And elves were better than everybody else -_-.

I may try the 'flexible interpretation' approach with him, but I find it hard to explain how a Halfling leverages his body to move a boulder, bash a door, or grapple (using Strength, not Dexterity) equally to a 6.5 ft. Half-Orc.

All in all, I appreciate the P.o.Vs, as they will help come to a healthy conclusion for everybody. After all, this isn't the only rule he has issue with.

[Flickerdart]

I may try the 'flexible interpretation' approach with him, but I find it hard to explain how a Halfling leverages his body to move a boulder, bash a door, or grapple (using Strength, not Dexterity) equally to a 6.5 ft. Half-Orc.
The same way that a dragon can fly without having the wingspan the size of an aircraft carrier.

[mrumsey]

The same way that a dragon can fly without having the wingspan the size of an aircraft carrier.

"Magic" [Insert "ALIENS" Meme here]. :smalltongue:

[Ashrym]

Halflings already have related restrictions from size, but it won't hurt anything to cap them at 16 STR or something. It will only create incentive to not make characters who might want 20 STR and change the builds. It creates less options but won't impact other options.

[RedMage125]

The same way that a dragon can fly without having the wingspan the size of an aircraft carrier.

2 things:
1) you ever seen a C-130? they're HUGE and they can fly
2) If you mean the WIDTH of an Aircraft Carrier and not the LENGTH, a Gargantuan Dragon DOES have said wingspan. The Nimitz Class Nuclear Aircraft Carriers used by the US Navy are a lot more narrow than people think

[mrumsey]

Maybe I was too specific. A half-orc as spart and spell savy as an elf is also on his list. Or any charismatic dwarf/half orc compared to other races.

[Laserlight]

Maybe I was too specific. A half-orc as spart and spell savy as an elf is also on his list. Or any charismatic dwarf/half orc compared to other races.

Tell him "Indeed, the average, normal, everyday halfling is not as strong as the average, normal, everyday half orc. But this is Odo Proudfoot, legendary warrior, renowned in story and song; average, normal and everyday do not apply to such as him."

Or tell him "He's actually a half-orc-ling. But we try not to think about that."

[TheOOB]

Keep in mind the price paid by the halfling as well. A halfling needs to spend at least 2 and a half ability score increases to max their strength, as opposed to the one and a half a half-orc has a spend. That means the half-orc has more ability score points to have other good abilities/have feats that make them a strong fighter.

Also, by the point they max str you're already at a level where I'd expect characters to be super human and their race to matter less.

[Eslin]

2 things:
1) you ever seen a C-130? they're HUGE and they can fly
2) If you mean the WIDTH of an Aircraft Carrier and not the LENGTH, a Gargantuan Dragon DOES have said wingspan. The Nimitz Class Nuclear Aircraft Carriers used by the US Navy are a lot more narrow than people think

Look at how dragons are built, they're basically scaly cats with wings. The wings are too small to carry them and they definitely don't have anywhere near the amount of muscles they'd need in the chest and shoulders to fly.

[OldTrees1]

Setting the cap higher for some races would change balance (probably even noticeably). However I expect easy going tables would not have any problems with that.

[Eslin]

Setting the cap higher for some races would change balance (probably even noticeably). However I expect easy going tables would not have any problems with that.

Yeah, but why do it? If a halfling's managed to get to 20 strength, good for him. The difference between him and the orc is the orc needs 4 less strength to get there, what is the actual point of penalising the halfling further?

[OldTrees1]

Yeah, but why do it? If a halfling's managed to get to 20 strength, good for him. The difference between him and the orc is the orc needs 4 less strength to get there, what is the actual point of penalising the halfling further?

1)
If a rule change does not change the cap on the Halfing's Strength, is it proper to claim that it is penalizing the halfing's strength further? (remember races do not have racial ability penalties anymore)

2)
If the one player wants it and the rest of the players are ambivalent or in favor of it, why not do it? I did qualify my expectation with the assumption that it was an easy going group did I not?

[Eslin]

1)
If a rule change does not change the cap on the Halfing's Strength, is it proper to claim that it is penalizing the halfing's strength further?

2)
If the one player wants it and the rest of the players are ambivalent or in favor of it, why not do it? I did qualify my expectation with the assumption that it was an easy going group did I not?

If everyone wants it, no real reason for any more discussion. I certainly wouldn't, but if it makes for greater enjoyment of the game then go nuts.

[OldTrees1]

If everyone wants it, no real reason for any more discussion. I certainly wouldn't, but if it makes for greater enjoyment of the game then go nuts.

Likewise if it makes for lesser enjoyment of the game(as would be in your case), then I would recommend against it. :smallsmile:

[Dizlag]

Come on. I'll put my halfling barbarian (STR 24) up against your half-orc fighter (STR 20) anyday. =)

Seriously though. If you're gonna implement ability score maximums on races, then look at the Character Race Table III in the 1st Edition Advanced D&D Player's Handbook. They capped Strength for male halflings at 17 and females at 14 with the half-orc being 18. So, maybe 15/12 for the halflings. And believe it or not, halflings had a 19/19 cap for Constitution with Dwarves and Half-orcs and the rest of the races being 18/18. Kinda cool cracking open that book again.

Dizlag

[pwykersotz]

To answer the original question, no it would not cause balance issues. That said, the less you break the limits the system imposes, the fewer unfortunate surprises you end up with. If it's an immersion thing, I'd personally rather cap stats at 18 and allow racial modifiers to push to 20.

[Dizlag]

I agree. I would make the racial maximums for each race be 18 + racial modifiers, so that would put the halfling's max STR at 18 and the half-orc's at 20. With DEX maximums being 20 for the halfling and 18 for the half-orc. I actually like that a lot and it would harken back to the old AD&D days for your dad, the old grognard like me that he is. =)

Dizlag

[Theodoxus]

Tell your dad to stop being a grognard, throw out the old concepts from previous editions and play the game the way it's written. It harkens back to the whole 'it's not 3.5 (or 1st, or 2nd, etc) with some changes - it's a new game.'

As for dragons and flying, they're birds (not cats) with scales. Hollow bones - just the bones happen to be proto-mithril, so super strong, but super light. Dwarves and elves mine old ancient fossilized dragons (without even knowing it) and smelt the fossilized bone now known as mithril ore.


BTW, Halflings have that silly rule about being at disadvantage when using heavy weapons. Because apparently, you can't make a halfling sized maul... they need to borrow a bigger race to put up their circus tents. /boggle.

[pwykersotz]

BTW, Halflings have that silly rule about being at disadvantage when using heavy weapons. Because apparently, you can't make a halfling sized maul... they need to borrow a bigger race to put up their circus tents. /boggle.

I believe those would just be Warhammers.

[Dizlag]

Tell your dad to stop being a grognard, throw out the old concepts from previous editions and play the game the way it's written. It harkens back to the whole 'it's not 3.5 (or 1st, or 2nd, etc) with some changes - it's a new game.'

Dude, don't be a jerk. The developers have been telling us from the first playtest that this is our game and we should make it so. If this guy wants to make his players (his dad, in this case) feel more immersed in the game or make the game more fun for his group by tweeking the stat maximums, then who are you to tell him otherwise?

mrumsey, don't listen to someone telling you to play this game as written. In the 5E Player's Handbook, second to the last paragraph in the preface written my Mike Mearls he says ... "Above all else, D&D is yours." I love this statement! It is what makes this game great and always has. D&D is yours to make it whatever you want and have fun doing it.

It makes me think of the Moldvay Basic Rules written over 30 years ago and the foreward written my Tom Moldvay ... "In a sense, the D&D game has no rules, only rule suggestions. No rule is inviolate, particularly if a new or altered rule will encourage creativity and imagination. The important thing is to enjoy the adventure."

Dizlag

[Demonic Spoon]

I agree. I would make the racial maximums for each race be 18 + racial modifiers, so that would put the halfling's max STR at 18 and the half-orc's at 20. With DEX maximums being 20 for the halfling and 18 for the half-orc. I actually like that a lot and it would harken back to the old AD&D days for your dad, the old grognard like me that he is. =)

Dizlag

I would amend this a bit and say that the max score is 18, but is actually 20 if any racial attribute bonus exists. Otherwise, the +1 bonus granted by many races isn't useful, and humans get shafted.

[Dizlag]

I would amend this a bit and say that the max score is 18, but is actually 20 if any racial attribute bonus exists. Otherwise, the +1 bonus granted by many races isn't useful, and humans get shafted.

Oh yeah, didn't think about that and I like your amendment to it. So, if we take our halfling, human, and half-orc races their stat maximums would be the following:

Lightfoot Halfling: Str 18, Dex 20, Con 18, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 20
Stout Halfling: Str 18, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
Half-orc: Str 20, Dex 18, Con 20, Int 18, Wis 18, Cha 18
Human: All 20
Variant Human: 2 Ability Scores picked 20, rest 18

I like it. Feels kinda "old school" to me. But, would this "tweek" do anything to make the variant human a less attractive option? Is the extra skill proficiency and feat worth only having two scores to be able to take to 20? I dunno. I don't play humans. =)

Dizlag

[mrumsey]

I don't think variant human will be an issue. At this point, my dad thinks feats are going to bog the game down. I think he just needs to play through a couple of games to get the feel of new DnD and how much less time is spent on mechanics. I think it frees up a lot of time to remember that you can beat someones face in with the butt of your glaive because you trained with sticks that one time (instead of just lifting weights like a good bro).

[Louro]

So your dad's confused with halflings who can be as strong as an orc. Wait till he sees he can play a black gnome female paladin with less than 12 in CHA.

[Amnoriath]

There is nothing wrong with the house rule, though I will point out that size does in fact represent strength as well. Even the 20th level maxed strength halfling barbarian(unless he is a bear at 6th) still can't carry as much as the maxed strength Half-Orc fighter. When it comes down to it is just a couple of numbers. If you want to show the Half-Orc as stronger the way it is have them perform feats of strength that factor in weight or relative size.

[odigity]

Does anyone see a huge balance issue with allowing the Racial Attribute Maximum to be 20+Racial modifier to help alleviate this? I am interested in hearing from everyone, but I frequently see @Odigity and @Eslin posting on balance issues (with differing views) so hearing from them could be useful.

I know this could hinder humans (maybe they get one 'chosen' attribute), but it might not as they aren't supposed to be as good as everyone else, but very flexible.

Hey, someone noticed me. :)

This is a totally interesting point, flavor-wise.

It's true that 5e is fairly carefully balanced, and it's not generally wise to upset that balance. If 22 is possible, it means that the level-appropriate encounters will be slightly easier than they're supposed to be for that char. And since people tend to pick the race that has bonuses in their core stats, and like to max core stats, you can assume all the chars in your party will have 21/22 in their core stats eventually.

Now, the good news re your proposal (mechanically):

1) At least all players have equal opportunity, so in that sense, it's still balanced *between* players.
2) Even if it wasn't, it's still less unbalancing than having players roll for scores, or having some roll and some do point-buy. Rolling gives you a shot at a 20 at level 1, while point-buy limits you to 17 (usually 16). This happened in my game, and every time one of the rolled-char players said "DC14", it always surprised me until I remembered "oh yeah, they rolled and started with an 18..." Yet this is all perfectly legal (and even suggested) by the PHB...
3) The suggested encounter rules aren't perfect. In my current main game, the DM keeps upping the encounters (slowly and carefully to avoid killing us all) because we're an obsessively tactical party and keep demolishing encounters with CRs 2 levels above us -- at least, when the creature doesn't have an especially deadly powers. (We took off rather than try to take on a Basislisk for the same reason we're highly tactical -- because we don't want to die.) So, if your party is buffer than normal (21/22 scores), just up the encounters to match, no big.
4) You can also compensate by delaying access to higher + magic weapons/armor, since you can assume your chars will already have +1 more than they're expected to in Str/Dex/Con whatever.

My opinion on your concern relative to the status quo:

I completely agree that most Halflings can never be as strong as most Half-Orcs, no matter how hard they work at it. However, you can still have outliers, and adventurers are exactly that. So if a char builds a Str 20 Halfling, you can have him be the equivalent of the world halfling weight-lifting/body-building champion, with a ridiculous and eye-catching physique, who makes it a point to arm-wrestle Half-Orcs for coppers during army campaigns...

Another flavor-mitigating factor is that while Halflings can get as strong as Half-Orcs (20), it will take them longer, since they don't start with a +2. So they'll be behind by 2-4 levels on the Str build-up, but can catch up eventually if they keep hitting the gym.

Lastly, there's the fact that D&D isn't/can't be completely realistic, and trying to fix that is often a fool's errand. For example, if you want to be realistic, your same proposal would have to be applied along the gender axis, unless someone can point me to a year when a female won the real world champion in some strength-based contest (I don't follow sports or weight lifting, but I don't think that's happened). And that would suck for female chars (except those that would really enjoy the realism and challenge of fighting other warriors in a world where they're often going to be stronger than her).

If you really wanted realism, you could even propose that it takes more points-per-point for a Halfling to gain strength than a Half-Orc because it's not their natural aptitude, which would be even crueler... :)


You could make it 18 or 19 instead of 20 and not have to worry about balance, since the max modifier would still be the same.

True, you could protect the upper bound AND the flavor by doing this, but it seems cruel to place limitations more strict than that which is in core already.

And as other said, in the end, the only thing that matters is that you and your group do/try what you want and agree to, and be willing to change it later if it doesn't work.