What happens if the Material Plane's populace shifts to Chaotic?

[AirApparent]

If, say, an artifact or elder evil (Elder Chaos?) exerted a global influence that caused all sentient creatures to shift towards chaotic alignments (either by one step or both) what would happen in populated areas and to individuals? Nothing about their moral alignment changes (at least initially).

The only thing I can think of is the alignment-shifting spell Morality Undone from BoVD, from anything to Evil. I'm having trouble thinking of individual alignment shifts and the larger implications.

Any ideas?

[Honest Tiefling]

I think it matters if we are talking about initially good or evil people being shifted. But one problem is that a whole lot of magic stops working. People no longer meet alignment requires and every paladin and lawful cleric/divine caster has fallen.

As for the implications of society, I imagine that the environment factors in. If the environment is so hostile as to discourage people running off and forming new settlements, then suddenly you have a bunch of people trying to work together. Without a good legal framework to accommodate this, I imagine a lot of political infighting occurs. Change to actual fighting in more evil settlements.

[AirApparent]

I figured in a worldwide scale, including good, neutral, and evil. Like in Morality Undone, it doesn't change the other axis.

I understand the magical implications, plus all of the clerics and paladins eventually falling. I mean for this to be a progressing thing (and honestly it's for 5e, but my mind thought to 3e where there's a spell that almost does this and alignments seem a bit more concrete).

Thank you for the input!

[atemu1234]

Are we talking by RAW here, or just what would be awesome?

[Flickerdart]

Devils and Angels would be showing up all over the place to try and convert people back. Demons and Eladrin will be showing up all over the place to take advantage of their new position in the world and do stuff they used to not be able to do. Modrons would collectively flip.

The Material Plane is very important, and the consequences of this would spread everywhere.

[Troacctid]

Inhibitions would be lowered. People would act on their emotions and impulses instead of holding them back. Imagine if everyone were drunk, but without the puking.

[Thrice Dead Cat]

Devils and Angels would be showing up all over the place to try and convert people back. Demons and Eladrin will be showing up all over the place to take advantage of their new position in the world and do stuff they used to not be able to do. Modrons would collectively flip.

The Material Plane is very important, and the consequences of this would spread everywhere.

Adding to this, I imagine the Inevitables would also go crazy hunting down people affected by the change, plus whatever caused it.

Devils would certainly do everything they could to get more pacts made, possibly even enacting some sort of contingency on active pacts to get more souls.

[darksolitaire]

Imagine if everyone were drunk, but without the puking.

This sounds dangerously awesome.

[AirApparent]

I'm not talking RAW, as this may not be for a 3rd edition thing. Basically I'm thinking up a new campaign idea where at one point the world becomes more chaotic. Now that I think about it I might just force a shift on 3 failed saves (save once a week) and shift one step towards chaos. Just one step. That way there is some people trying to keep a working society together, though not as strongly as if they were lawful.

By math I ran, the generic populace would all shift by about the 2nd month, with the half-life being about 3-4 weeks.

Some things I started spit-balling

-as mentioned above the lack of impulse control.
-a corollary to this, there may be an influx of wandering adventurers, as people who may have retired or stayed at their business/farm drop their jobs to wander the world

-people begin protesting bigger restrictions. Many countries previously peaceful erupt into revolution or civil war

-people disregarding smaller (eventually bigger) laws, like open alcohol laws for example. In later stages, law enforcement drops all attempts at regulating all but the more heinous crimes. Those hat do impose order are more likely to be met with violence.

-people in law enforcement (particularly NG/TN folks) start to have misgivings about their role in an "overbearing" government and find other jobs. Vigilante justice becomes the only kind of law enforcement, and usually over personal slights and vendettas or extremely malevolent crimes like murder or grand theft.

-People begin to adopt a Darwinist approach to life. Business owners either learn to defend their business

-as governments continue to break down, they cease to mint coins. Barter becomes more and more common.

-Demons, eladrin, and slaadi enjoy their new footholds int he world. Succubi find it easier to corrupt souls as people are more willing to enjoy there services (probably also an increase in brothels and other such establishments)
-Modron and other lawful outsiders desperately try to reinstate their influence. Ironically, devils may. E able to survive, as the lack of impulse control plus the promise of relatively immediate power lead to a group of new souls who previously wanted to deal with them, but now lack the restraint to hold themselves back. Contracts now carefully avoid blatant language such as "slave" or "eternal servitude" (though if anybody wants to subtly screw somebody over, the devils can). To use fiendish codex language, the pact insidious becomes more common.

[Honest Tiefling]

I figured in a worldwide scale, including good, neutral, and evil. Like in Morality Undone, it doesn't change the other axis.

I know, but I still think a community that is evil is going to react much differently then one which is good.

I do have to wonder where the Impluse Control and Darwinist approaches come in, however...They're moving to chaos, not stupid.

[AirApparent]

I know, but I still think a community that is evil is going to react much differently then one which is good.

I do have to wonder where the Impluse Control and Darwinist approaches come in, however...They're moving to chaos, not stupid.

Impulse control: chaotic people tend to act more in their own interests as opposed to the interests of society. I may be leaping a bit, but people who suddenly stopped caring about society as a whole may begin to take risks they normally wouldn't have, like not keeping up their farm in order to find your destiny out yonder.

Darwinist: this is probably more of a leap than the first one, but I kind of thought of it as a product of the influx of chaotic evil. It's probably too far of a leap since the more I think of it, the less water it holds. My initial image was somebody walking into a tavern and saying "this is my bar now" and thanks to the recent dissolution of laws to say otherwise, the tavern owner would have to defend his property or move out. But that's probably not too big a problem the more I think of it.

[Honest Tiefling]

Again, chaotic, not stupid. Chaotic characters seek their own fortunes and want to be the master of their own destiny. Personal freedoms matter to them. Their ideals and beliefs change, not their wisdom score. Poor impulse control is a mental disorder, not an alignment.

[AirApparent]

Poor impulse control is a mental disorder, not an alignment.

Ok, thanks. I guess at times I throw out words without considering what they actually mean. Dangerous habit on the internet.

[Honest Tiefling]

Then perhaps I am not fully grasping what aspect you meant. Maybe I'm just being dense.

[AirApparent]

I think when I said impulse control, it was largely attached to this quote:


Inhibitions would be lowered. People would act on their emotions and impulses instead of holding them back. Imagine if everyone were drunk, but without the puking.

Which in some ways is chaotic, though can easily lead to chaotic stupid.

To put it in another perspective, I often think of the chaotic alignment axis being the Red color of magic from Magic: the Gathering. If you don't know what that means, here's a summary:

Above all else, red values freedom of expression. It wants to do what it wants, when it wants, to whom it wants, and nobody can tell it otherwise. It believes that life would be much more fun if everyone stopped caring about rules, laws and personal appearances and just spent their time indulging their desires. This leads into red's other core value: chaos. Red sees order of any kind as pointlessly inhibiting, believing that only through embracing anarchy could everyone really be free to enjoy life to the fullest. Finally, Red is the color of immediate action and immediate gratification. If it wants something it will act on its impulses and take it, regardless of the consequences.

This is opposed to the lawful axis, best translated to White mana:
White puts value in the group, the community, and its civilization as a whole. White's ultimate goal is peace, harmony, and perfection — a world where everyone gets along and no one seeks to disturb the bonds of unity that White had worked so long to forge. To govern and protect its community, White makes use of and puts value in a number of broad concepts; morality (ethics, grace, truth), order (law, discipline, duty), uniformity (conformity, religion), and structure (government, planning, reason).

[Honest Tiefling]

I am not so sure that is a good example of chaos. Yes, they will be more free to truly express themselves and perhaps not hold back. However, I don't think that chaos is inherently more emotional then law. Drunkeness is, after all, the result of a poison mucking about in your brain. There is the problem that again, chaos is not stupid. If being uninhibited impedes your goals as a chaotic character, you won't do it.

Succubi are dangerous because they hide their true nature until they strike. If they were completely uninhibited, they'd start humping everything in sight. Visits from Eladrin, beings of supreme good, would end up with death, destruction and probably more then a few hurt feelings.

Patience, scheming and trickery, and yes, even self-restraint, are all parts of the chaotic spectrum. A chaotic character can show self-restraint because it comes from the self, not outside forces.

[Jeff the Green]

People no longer meet alignment requires and every paladin and lawful cleric/divine caster has fallen.

That's only true of LN clerics of a lawful god; you can be one step away from your god as long as you're not neutral.


Poor impulse control is a mental disorder, not an alignment.

Not really. I mean, extreme lack of it is, but otherwise it's a personality trait (based off of this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait_theory#List_of_personality_traits), high novelty seeking, impulsivity, or disinhibition or low conscientiousness).

Honestly I interpret the Law-Chaos divide as just that, plus the belief that it's a good thing. Lawful creatures follow rules and think that's how to lead a good/fulfilling life while Chaotic creatures follow whims and think that's how to lead a good/fulfilling life.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's only true of LN clerics of a lawful god; you can be one step away from your god as long as you're not neutral.

Unless you were Neutral to begin with. As it keeps going, only those who allow chaotic worshippers would have any of the right alignment.


Not really. I mean, extreme lack of it is, but otherwise it's a personality trait (based off of this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trait_theory#List_of_personality_traits), high novelty seeking, impulsivity, or disinhibition or low conscientiousness).

Honestly I interpret the Law-Chaos divide as just that, plus the belief that it's a good thing. Lawful creatures follow rules and think that's how to lead a good/fulfilling life while Chaotic creatures follow whims and think that's how to lead a good/fulfilling life.

I'd still argue that a personality trait isn't an alignment. Alignment is beliefs, personal values. Also, if there is enough lack of impulse control that you'd start making deals with devils, it is both a mental disorder and pretty stupid.

[Jeff the Green]

Unless you were Neutral to begin with. As it keeps going, only those who allow chaotic worshippers would have any of the right alignment.

A cleric can only be True Neutral if their deity is, so any True Neutral clerics are still within one step of their deity. But yes, as it progresses Lawful deities are in trouble.


I'd still argue that a personality trait isn't an alignment. Alignment is beliefs, personal values. Also, if there is enough lack of impulse control that you'd start making deals with devils, it is both a mental disorder and pretty stupid.

Conscientiousness correlates pretty strongly with Good, actually, depending on which idea of Good you accept. (In BoED it's implied that everyone's conscience points toward Good and only faulty logic and ignoring it lead to Evil.)

A lot of personality traits have to do with belief and personal values. There are a number that correlate strongly with certain political views, for instance. Also, alignment very clearly has more to do with actions than intent, and personality traits are one of the primary determinants of behavior; genocide is Evil even if it's the only way to stop a demonic invasion.

[Shalist]

Before you read too much into the lawful / chaotic bit, consider some preexisting chaotic-individual societies of various ethical moral alignments, like dark / wood / regular elves, various towns and settlements on chaotic outer planes, or any other 'generally chaotic' critters that have perfectly functional (well...) societies.

edit: d20srd's monster filter (http://www.d20srd.org/extras/d20monsterfilter/) for a convenient list of chaotic critters.

[Troacctid]

I think when I said impulse control, it was largely attached to this quote:


Inhibitions would be lowered. People would act on their emotions and impulses instead of holding them back. Imagine if everyone were drunk, but without the puking.

Which in some ways is chaotic, though can easily lead to chaotic stupid.

To put it in another perspective, I often think of the chaotic alignment axis being the Red color of magic from Magic: the Gathering. If you don't know what that means, here's a summary:

Above all else, red values freedom of expression. It wants to do what it wants, when it wants, to whom it wants, and nobody can tell it otherwise. It believes that life would be much more fun if everyone stopped caring about rules, laws and personal appearances and just spent their time indulging their desires. This leads into red's other core value: chaos. Red sees order of any kind as pointlessly inhibiting, believing that only through embracing anarchy could everyone really be free to enjoy life to the fullest. Finally, Red is the color of immediate action and immediate gratification. If it wants something it will act on its impulses and take it, regardless of the consequences.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I had in mind too. For those not familiar with the color pie, here (http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mm/smart-thinking-2014-11-03) is a great article about Red's relationship with White and Blue, the two Lawful colors.

[goto124]

Also, if there is enough lack of impulse control that you'd start making deals with devils, it is both a mental disorder and pretty stupid.

That reasoning will apply to some people, but not everyone. There will be a trend towards it (more impluse and devil deals) compared to a more Lawful society, but it doesn't mean everyone will do it. Not everyone is stupid, but stupid people exist after all :P

[Flickerdart]

That reasoning will apply to some people, but not everyone. There will be a trend towards it (more impluse and devil deals) compared to a more Lawful society, but it doesn't mean everyone will do it. Not everyone is stupid, but stupid people exist after all :P
There are plenty of stupid Lawful people, too. Stupidity is not tied to alignment.

[Duke of Urrel]

If, say, an artifact or elder evil (Elder Chaos?) exerted a global influence that caused all sentient creatures to shift towards chaotic alignments (either by one step or both) what would happen in populated areas and to individuals? Nothing about their moral alignment changes (at least initially).

The only thing I can think of is the alignment-shifting spell Morality Undone from BoVD, from anything to Evil. I'm having trouble thinking of individual alignment shifts and the larger implications.

Any ideas?

Here's how I imagine a general shift from Law to Chaos.

I think the general organization of many societies would break down somewhat, creating strife where there was once obedience to a single ruler. Large empires would break up into smaller kingdoms, and smaller kingdoms would break up into smaller independent duchies. Nation-states would break up into local tribes and clans. A few aristocrats would undoubtedly lose their heads. Thousands of slaves would win freedom from bondage, though they might not gain any land of their own and might become migrant workers.

Chaotic beings, in my understanding, have fewer qualms than Lawful ones about stealing under the right circumstances, but the upshot of this is that they would eventually use money less, because it's too easy for others to steal. Consequently, there would be more small-scale bartering and less large-scale banking. With weakened guilds, industry would be less organized and probably smaller in scale. With weakened police, big cities would lose some population as laborers and craftspeople moved to smaller towns where everybody would know and trust everybody else, so that they would be able to build workable economies based upon handshakes rather than laws.

Assembled in smaller political units, predominantly Chaotic beings would participate more in their own self-government, perhaps even democratically in places where Chaotic-Good strongly outweighed Chaotic-Evil. With no large, organized armies to stop them, Chaotic-Evil marauders would be greatly encouraged to plunder and pillage, but with all industry reduced to a smaller scale, they would get less booty for their efforts.

Chaotic beings might have raised expectations with respect to their New Birth of Freedom, but they might also find themselves disappointed, as the Lawful societies that they had once exploited in various clever and creative ways (both helpful and harmful) would now be weaker and poorer. They might take out their frustrations against each other, with increased war as a result, at least in the short term.

The world's more Chaotic population might eventually reach a new equilibrium – and a little more peace – on a more primitive level, and with a lower global population. Urbanites might become rural, and farmers might become nomads or hunter-gatherers. In more isolated bands, Chaotic-Good beings might avoid war by artful diplomacy and perpetual vigilance, and Chaotic-Evil beings might keep their population low by means of perpetual small-scale warfare.

This is how I imagine society would develop if Chaos were simply allowed to prevail over Law on the Material Plane. However, I agree with other commenters that Lawful extraplanar beings will not just stand by and allow all sentient beings on the Material Plane to lean toward Chaos. Eventually, they will intervene and try to restore Law and order. Since Lawful creatures are methodical, they may take a long time planning their counter-revolution, but when they do strike, they will probably strike all at once. This might be the beginning of a new period of strife, in which the opposition between Law and Chaos would nearly rival the opposition between Good and Evil as the main cause of strife. But I believe this ethical rather than moral conflict can be managed (and made really interesting) only by a dungeon master who very clearly lays out what Law and Chaos mean and gives plausible motives for both Lawful and Chaotic antagonists.

[atemu1234]

I wouldn't be surprised if normal structures of society stayed the same: After all, society exists for a reason, and that reason is self-preservation. It might prove a last straw in a revolution, but a stable society would remain as such.

[goto124]

I think the general organization of many societies would break down somewhat, creating strife where there was once obedience to a single ruler. Large empires would break up into smaller kingdoms, and smaller kingdoms would break up into smaller independent duchies...

What's the timescale? All these would take years to happen. If the campaign only cares about the short-term events after the Chaos Spell was cast, the players would only see... well... chaos, and mostly of the bad kind.

[AirApparent]

What's the timescale? All these would take years to happen. If the campaign only cares about the short-term events after the Chaos Spell was cast, the players would only see... well... chaos, and mostly of the bad kind.

Both short and long term. I plan on giving players a choice to reverse the process or live with the new world and what joys and sorrows it may bring.

They would probably be given a run-down of a wise political sage's predictions and be allowed to choose from that.

[Seto]

Patience, scheming and trickery, and yes, even self-restraint, are all parts of the chaotic spectrum. A chaotic character can show self-restraint because it comes from the self, not outside forces.

That's true, but as you become chaotic, your goals have a tendency to change. Philosophically, you start giving life a different meaning. To a Lawful person, "to exist" can mean "to function within the world and strive toward the perpetuation and the betterment of both yourself and your society/values" ; to a Chaotic person, "to exist" might begin to mean "to express yourself, to expand your inner light (emotions, thoughts, choices and overall being) on the world and be recognized as a lit beacon by anyone watching". For what is true existence, if not a flash of freedom and expansion without constraints ? And freedom is nothing if it is not immediately recognizable, if it leaves no mark on the world, and if it leaves not in the eyes of your peers the awe that comes from watching a majestic bird soar.
Sure, you won't do anything stupid that gets in the way of your goals, but no goal is worth spending your life restraining yourself in order to attain it. A life without enjoyment is a sad life to live, even if you achieve everything you set out for. And ultimately, if it comes to it, going out with a bang is having been more alive than fading away.
And that's not about mental disorder or lack of wisdom, it's not about personality, it's about beliefs and worldview.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's true, but as you become chaotic, your goals have a tendency to change. Philosophically, you start giving life a different meaning. To a Lawful person, "to exist" can mean "to function within the world and strive toward the perpetuation and the betterment of both yourself and your society/values" ; to a Chaotic person, "to exist" might begin to mean "to express yourself, to expand your inner light (emotions, thoughts, choices and overall being) on the world and be recognized as a lit beacon by anyone watching".

On the flipside, a chaotic person can also just not give a rat's rear end about any of that. A lawful person can also become an artist and express emotions for the benefit of society as well.


For what is true existence, if not a flash of freedom and expansion without constraints ? And freedom is nothing if it is not immediately recognizable, if it leaves no mark on the world, and if it leaves not in the eyes of your peers the awe that comes from watching a majestic bird soar.

Uh...What? Why on earth would every chaotic character have to think this way? Demanding chaotic characters think philosophically or metaphorically or want to leave an impression on the world seems about as silly to me as demanding that all lawful types like mangoes. Alignments are supposed to be looser then this.


Sure, you won't do anything stupid that gets in the way of your goals, but no goal is worth spending your life restraining yourself in order to attain it. A life without enjoyment is a sad life to live, even if you achieve everything you set out for. And ultimately, if it comes to it, going out with a bang is having been more alive than fading away.
And that's not about mental disorder or lack of wisdom, it's not about personality, it's about beliefs and worldview.

...So Chaotic Good doesn't exist, because they will never restrain themselves for their goals of helping others? Chaotic characters can only enjoy life in one particular way?

Perhaps I disagree with the forums in general on alignment, which I admit is quite possible. But for the sake of the game, I think it might be better to strongly hint to the players that you are playing with the MTG colors for alignments, so they'll get the idea of what might be going on. The DM ultimately decides alignment, but I'd toss in hints just to avoid confusion.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

It will probably result in a French-revolution kind of thing, except worldwide and with a higher demon/eladrin quotient. Which sounds kinda awesome.


Unless you're of the ruling class, of course.

[Seto]

On the flipside, a chaotic person can also just not give a rat's rear end about any of that. A lawful person can also become an artist and express emotions for the benefit of society as well.

I have trouble picturing a chaotic person whose decisions don't have anything to do with emotions. Regarding your second sentence, the key word is "for the benefit of society". They'll express their emotions when it's wise to do so, but if emotions get in the way of everyone's well-being, they'll probably be able to shut them down (with individual differences) and still gain gratification from that. A chaotic character might do that, but they'll never consider it a proper way of life.


Uh...What? Why on earth would every chaotic character have to think this way? Demanding chaotic characters think philosophically or metaphorically or want to leave an impression on the world seems about as silly to me as demanding that all lawful types like mangoes. Alignments are supposed to be looser then this.

Of course. My goal was to show how it's possible to both not restrain oneself and not be stupid. There are several possible chaotic philosophies, and not everyone has a philosophy. I did not mention anything about "every chaotic character" in the paragraph you're quoting. But now that it comes up, I do think that every chaotic character would like to avoid self-restraint whenever reasonally possible, and have more trouble sublimating it as "what needs to be done for reasons the importance of which overrides my mere self" than neutral or lawful characters.


...So Chaotic Good doesn't exist, because they will never restrain themselves for their goals of helping others? Chaotic characters can only enjoy life in one particular way?

That's not at all what I said. Chaotic, Good or otherwise, can and will restraint itself, but it's never essential to the character and always temporary. I specifically mentioned lifelong restraint. When you're CG, there has to be something in it for you, be it only happiness that comes from putting a smile on people's faces. In cases where doing Good makes you miserable, requires that you relinquish your own desires, and you still make it a lifelong committment, you're looking at something else than CG.


Perhaps I disagree with the forums in general on alignment, which I admit is quite possible. But for the sake of the game, I think it might be better to strongly hint to the players that you are playing with the MTG colors for alignments, so they'll get the idea of what might be going on. The DM ultimately decides alignment, but I'd toss in hints just to avoid confusion.

"The forums in general" has hardly reached a consensus on alignment. I don't know the MTG colors. But of course if anyone suspects that their interpretation of alignment differs from their players', and that it might come up, there should be a talk about it.

[Honest Tiefling]

That's just the thing. Just as you have problems picturing a Chaotic character not caring about emotions, I have troubles picturing them doing so to a great extent.

And good is self-sacrifice for the sake of others, regardless of where you are on the law-chaos spectrum. If the character is incapable of making themselves miserable or relinquish their own desires for others...They aren't good, just Chaotic Neutral.

Lawful Good paladins would sacrifice ANYTHING for the sake of good. On the flipside, Chaotic Good will not make the same sacrifice for others...Much like their evil and neutral counterparts.

[Belial_the_Leveler]

Lawful Good doesn't sacrifice its own integrity for others. It doesn't sacrifice the good of society for the individual. It doesn't break law and tradition even if that would mean doing more good. It is Lawful in addition to Good.

On the contrary, Chaotic Good will lie and cheat because being a liar to keep your friends safe is desirable. It will cheerfully throw tradition down the dustbin of history to combat racism and sexism. It will steal from the government to feed the poor. Hell, it will bomb the government for no other reason than nobody having the right to rule another.




BTW, emotions have nothing to do with Law/Chaos or Good/Evil. The chessmaster that suppresses his love with secrecy and aloofness because they might be a distraction in his fight against tyranny is still chaotic good (hey there, V-man!). The guy who will subjugate planets because tyranny feeds his power, who feels nothing about using both his family and his enemies in the altar of his power is still Lawful Evil (hey there, Darkseid!).