I like Epic and I cannot lie...

[HJPotter]

Hey all,

I'm the DM in an IRL campaign, and we're nearing 20th level (gratz to the team for making it this far!). We are considering playing with the epic rules, but we have a Wizard and a Sorcerer, and neither of them like the epic spellcasting rules. Neither do I. So I came up with a different way of epic spellcaster progression, and I'd like your opinions, please.

Notable house rules we currently play with: No metamagic reducers to make metamagic cost less than +1; also, sorcerers get no delay when applying metamagic to their spells.

My proposed system is as follows:

You take the Epic Level Handbook rules, minus Epic Spellcasting. In its place, we have the following:

Classes continue to gain spell slots/spells per day as before, so a 21st level wiz/sorc/druid/etc gets 10th level spell slots, bards get 7ths, etc.
You can also learn new spells at a similar rate as before. The trick is, that there are no epic level spells, but you can use the new slots to cast metamagically modified spells. Since your spellcasting keeps improving--which to me is a bigger bonus than the Epic Spellcasting system from the Epic Handbook--the Epic Handbook's rate of (epic) bonus feats gained by all classes will be brought down by 2 for full spellcasting classes, and reduced by 1 for partial spellcasting classes. For example Wizards get an (epic) bonus feat every five levels, not every three levels as they would with the 'normal' Epic Level rules.

The thinking behind this change is that, however broken the current magic system may be, at least it's broken in a way we've all played with for twenty levels, so what could go wrong? Also, this should still represent a significant increase in power compared to non-epic casting.

I'd love your feedback, or hear how you've handled this in your own campaigns that went beyond level 20 (as a DM or a player).

[qazzquimby]

This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?247756-Librim-Eternia-Tome-of-Epic-Prestige-%28Completed%29) might be helpful?

Though I think its magic users still use epic casting.

[Tvtyrant]

Oddly the Pathfinder Words of Power fixes most of the casting bloat issues in D&D. For epic I would simply continue the spell slot progression to higher slots (10th, 11th, etc.) The spells get more effects as time goes on, but they don't become so OP that the game breaks down (as already happens with 9th level spells.)

[HJPotter]

The progression + words of power thing is interesting, though it's a whole new casting system, and it might break immersion a bit to change systems halfway through. But it's definitely interesting, and it tells me I'm onto something with my plan/looks like a fun system.

The Librim Eternia looks cool too, but this guy seems to keep the epic spellcasting system (unless I don't understand/misread after skimming the first 5 posts), which is something I specifically want to avoid. Still looks like a phenomenal resource.

Could I be so bold as to ask for a review of my proposed 'system'?

(Also tyvm for contributing, all resources help. I'll probably end up proposing my personal top 2-3 of epic systems to my table and let them choose.)

[Tvtyrant]

The system you are talking about seems fine. On the one hand it quickly becomes brokenly powerful with persist spell and multispell, on the other hand most of what you can do with those you could do with sufficient optimization before level 20.

[Doorhandle]

Also, if the do want to expand their spell list, eclipse: the codex persona has a list of spells from 10-21st level. Most of them aren't evocation, though.

[JBPuffin]

Also, if the do want to expand their spell list, eclipse: the codex persona has a list of spells from 10-21st level. Most of them aren't evocation, though.

...Thank you for knowing what that book is. Just...thank you, Doorhandle.

Seems legit, but what about paladins, bards and such who could technically get some more spells? Would you be willing to, perhaps, select spells from an appropriate list/school/whatever group at higher levels, rather than leaving them with meta'd 4th (pally, ranger) and 6th (bard, others) level spells? I mean, what paladin is going to take DMM? (...that may be a stupid question. Maybe...<.<)

[nonsi]

.
Don't know if this is what you're looking for, but here are some high power spells I've collected.
I haven't had time to do much with them, so they're not really formatted, but you might be able to make use of them in some way.


{Removed because I don't know if any of them violates copyrights}

[iceifur]

You could always crib the PF rules for advancing beyond 20th level (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/character-advancement) (found towards the bottom of the page), particularly the spellcasting.


Spells

A spellcaster's caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.

For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot, in which he can prepare any spell of level 1st through 9th, or in which he can prepare a metamagic spell that results in an effective spell level of 10 (such as extended summon monster IX, or quickened disintegrate). At 22nd level he gains 10 spell-levels' worth of new spell slots, and can gain 10 1st-level spells per day, two 5th-level spells per day, one 7th-level and one 3rd-level spell per day, or one more 10th-level spell per day. At 23rd level, he gains a single 11th-level spell slot, and so on.

Spellcasters who have a limited number of spells known (such as bards and sorcerers) can opt out of the benefits they gain (either a new level of spells or a number of spell slots) for that level and in exchange learn two more spells of any level they can currently cast.

You might want to further adjust the rate of spell level gain for classes (like paladins and rangers) who gain spells more slowly than more dedicated spellcaster classes.


You might also want to look into the PF Mythic rules (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/mythic) for more ideas.

[HJPotter]

...Thank you for knowing what that book is. Just...thank you, Doorhandle.

Seems legit, but what about paladins, bards and such who could technically get some more spells? Would you be willing to, perhaps, select spells from an appropriate list/school/whatever group at higher levels, rather than leaving them with meta'd 4th (pally, ranger) and 6th (bard, others) level spells? I mean, what paladin is going to take DMM? (...that may be a stupid question. Maybe...<.<)

That's exactly what I'm planning to do, I foresee some quiet evenings with my spellbooks to select spell lists for those classes. Should be a good exercise, and good prep for epic level villainy.

[HJPotter]

Useful stuff

Wow, I knew I couldn't be the first one to come up with this idea. I especially like their solution for partial casting classes, great info, thanks!
I've never played Pathfinder myself, shame on me, I know, but I've heard that it isn't very different. Do you think the numbers mentioned need a lot of tweaking for 3.5?

[HJPotter]

Also, if the do want to expand their spell list, eclipse: the codex persona has a list of spells from 10-21st level. Most of them aren't evocation, though.

cool, googling that now. Thanks for the info :D