Using Diplomacy, Bluff, or Intimidate to Influence Enemies

[Mehangel]

I am currently playing in a campaign as the party tank. My biggest issue is that I am having trouble forcing the enemies to focus on myself. I understand that in 3.5 the Knight class had the class feature "Test of Mettle" which forced intelligent creatures to make a will save or become compelled to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets.

However, I am finding difficulty finding any ability like this in Pathfinder. I do find feats and abilities that cause opponents to get negatives when not facing myself, but nothing that forces them to target myself.

In 3.5 a character could make a diplomacy check with a -10 penalty as a full-round action.

If this was possible in Pathfinder, I could intentionally fail my Diplomacy check by 5 or more and cause the monsters attitude to drop by one step. Unfortunately, I cannot find Pathfinder rules on rushing diplomacy like in 3.5 and I am trying to stay away from Homebrew if it isnt necessary.

I suppose what I am asking is, does anyone know of a feat, item, or spell for Pathfinder (including 3rd party content) that will force enemies to target myself much like the 3.5 Knights "Test of Mettle?"

[Red Fel]

I am currently playing in a campaign as the party tank. My biggest issue is that I am having trouble forcing the enemies to focus on myself. I understand that in 3.5 the Knight class had the class feature "Test of Mettle" which forced intelligent creatures to make a will save or become compelled to attack you with their ranged or melee attacks in preference over other available targets.

However, I am finding difficulty finding any ability like this in Pathfinder. I do find feats and abilities that cause opponents to get negatives when not facing myself, but nothing that forces them to target myself.

In 3.5 a character could make a diplomacy check with a -10 penalty as a full-round action.

If this was possible in Pathfinder, I could intentionally fail my Diplomacy check by 5 or more and cause the monsters attitude to drop by one step. Unfortunately, I cannot find Pathfinder rules on rushing diplomacy like in 3.5 and I am trying to stay away from Homebrew if it isnt necessary.

I suppose what I am asking is, does anyone know of a feat, item, or spell for Pathfinder (including 3rd party content) that will force enemies to target myself much like the 3.5 Knights "Test of Mettle?"

First off, "tanking" in tabletop RPGs doesn't work well. It just doesn't, and one reason is that "tanking" in the MMORPG sense means temporarily overriding the enemy intelligence to force them to attack, and that doesn't work nearly as well in TTRPGs as it does online. That said, the Knight's ability in 3.5 was one way; the Crusader's abilities were generally better, because they used a different mechanic. Although some did use the whole "take a penalty unless you attack me" method, others used the "and if you don't attack me I get an AoO" method, and still others used the "screw it, I'm going to take an AoO anyway and trip you, so you're not a threat to anybody" method. Crusader did it better.

The bottom line is that the more effective method of tanking wasn't to force enemies to attack you; it was to lock them down so that they couldn't attack anybody.

Fast-forward to PF. Take a look at the Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) class, which combines the Crusader's tanking style with the Warblade's Int-based abilities and tactical acumen, and manages to do a pretty solid job of locking enemies down. (Have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348363-Defending-the-Weak-A-Guide-to-the-PoW-Warder-WIP).) For example, the Warder gains the Aegis ability, granting anyone within radius a bonus to AC and Will saves. The Warder does not, by default, gain this bonus, which makes the Warder a more desirable target. There's Defensive Focus, which, among other things, turns your threatened area into difficult terrain, slowing enemies down as they pass through. There's also the Armiger's Mark ability, which penalizes enemies you hit in combat unless they focus on you. And of course, there are maneuvers, which take these abilities and crank them up.

[BWR]

I'd also suggest talking to your DM to see if you can use demoralize for this, with the reasoning that if you intimidate someone sufficiently, they not only suffer mechanical penalties from your presence but feel you are dangerous and should be taken care of first. The DM can either just roleplay this (most, but not necessarily all, enemies who you demoralize will target you first) or add some sort of house rule that if you exceed the DC needed to demoralize a target by a certain amount, they also feel compelled to attack or hamper you first.

[Sileniy]

There are a couple of low-level spells on the Paladin list (and on others too) that forces will either force a creature to attack you, like Compel Hostility, or give them negative consequences if they don't, like Challenge Evil.

[Mehangel]

Thanks alot,

So I think what I may end up doing is making a slotted magical item with a continuous Compel Hostility.

<Slot> of Compel Hostility
Whenever a creature you can see that threatens you makes an attack against one of your allies, as an immediate action, you can compel that creature to attack you instead. When you compel a creature to attack you, you must first overcome that creature’s spell resistance, and the creature can attempt a Will saving throw to ignore the compulsion.

If I understand the rules for item creation correctly I am looking at a minimum creation cost of 8000 gold (([Spell Level] 1 x [Caster Level] 1 x [Continuous] 2000) x 4 [rounds/level]) for a DC 11 will save. The will save is ridiculously low, and any creature with Spell Resistance is likely to overcome it.

If I make the item with a Heightened Compel Hostility (Fills a Level 6 slot) I end up with an item costing 528000 gold (([Spell Level] 6 x [Caster Level] 11 x [Continuous] 2000) x4 [rounds/level]) for a DC 19 Will Save. This will save while not high in any regards, may prove far more useful.

If I make the item with a Persistant Heightened Compel Hostility (Fills a Level 9 slot) I end up with an item costing 1224000 gold for a DC 20 Will Save. Because of the added Persistant, the target must make 2 will saves against the effect (more chances for the enemy to roll a nat 1). Of course by the time I can afford such an item, 90% of enemies I will be facing will be immune to mind affecting abilities..

[avr]

The Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) feat does what you want, though only against one target and at the cost of a standard action.

[Mehangel]

The Antagonize (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/general-feats/antagonize) feat does what you want, though only against one target and at the cost of a standard action.

This is exactly what I was looking for, Thanks! Yes, it only works against an individual creature 1/day. Yes it only affects the creature until it attacks. And yes it costs a standard action. But other than that, it gives me what I need. Because in all reality, I just needed an ability to keep the enemy off the casters for 1 round. Thankyou again..

[Elricaltovilla]

First off, "tanking" in tabletop RPGs doesn't work well. It just doesn't, and one reason is that "tanking" in the MMORPG sense means temporarily overriding the enemy intelligence to force them to attack, and that doesn't work nearly as well in TTRPGs as it does online. That said, the Knight's ability in 3.5 was one way; the Crusader's abilities were generally better, because they used a different mechanic. Although some did use the whole "take a penalty unless you attack me" method, others used the "and if you don't attack me I get an AoO" method, and still others used the "screw it, I'm going to take an AoO anyway and trip you, so you're not a threat to anybody" method. Crusader did it better.

The bottom line is that the more effective method of tanking wasn't to force enemies to attack you; it was to lock them down so that they couldn't attack anybody.

Fast-forward to PF. Take a look at the Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) class, which combines the Crusader's tanking style with the Warblade's Int-based abilities and tactical acumen, and manages to do a pretty solid job of locking enemies down. (Have a handbook (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?348363-Defending-the-Weak-A-Guide-to-the-PoW-Warder-WIP).) For example, the Warder gains the Aegis ability, granting anyone within radius a bonus to AC and Will saves. The Warder does not, by default, gain this bonus, which makes the Warder a more desirable target. There's Defensive Focus, which, among other things, turns your threatened area into difficult terrain, slowing enemies down as they pass through. There's also the Armiger's Mark ability, which penalizes enemies you hit in combat unless they focus on you. And of course, there are maneuvers, which take these abilities and crank them up.

Hey Red Fel, stop trying to do my job! Are you trying to put me out of work?:smalltongue:

[Red Fel]

Hey Red Fel, stop trying to do my job! Are you trying to put me out of work?:smalltongue:

Hey, I linked your handbook, I gave you some credit! :smallbiggrin:

Seriously, though, OP, you're really limiting yourself if you're just using methods like Antagonize. More importantly: If you're using your standard action to perform Antagonize and tricks like it, your character isn't very threatening. After the effects wear off, enemies have no reason to keep attacking you. The best way to keep an enemy focused on you is to be a threat; to be dangerous and have an impact on combat. That's another problem with the "tanking" mentality - being a big block of AC and HP is worth less (but not worthless) in the long run, because (1) any sensible enemy will ignore you in favor of squishier targets who hurl fireballs, and (2) none of that prevents the enemy from locking you down, with BFC and debuffs. Being an opponent who deals damage, or locks enemies down, is a way to ensure that, once you have their attention, you keep it. No saves or skill checks required.

[Elricaltovilla]

Hey, I linked your handbook, I gave you some credit! :smallbiggrin:


You linked the old handbook though. I should really get the mods to delete those. OP, here's an updated link: Warder Guide (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit?usp=sharing).

Red Fel is right though. Action economy is king. If you spend a standard action to make one enemy target you, what are you going to do when:

a) There are other enemies on the field
b) You fail the check against your target
c) You can no longer influence the target because 1 round has passed

You wasted your most important action for the turn to try and make one enemy attack you. What you need to note as well is that this doesn't even specify a melee attack. They can just shoot you with a bow, a fireball or dominate you into being their new *****. All of those are attacks allowed by the Antagonize feat.

Even if you don't want to use Path of War (but you totally should) there are better options. Lore Warden (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/lore-warden) Martial Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) Fighter (the archetypes stack) with a whip build and a focus on the Dirty Trick and Trip combat maneuvers can unload a massive number of debuffs on your enemies and trigger a bunch of AoOs from tripped targets. With Martial Master you get some feat flexibility in case your normal setup isn't quite working or you want to try something different (like disarm or sunder). With the right feats you can threaten a 15 ft. area around you, and use your attacks of opportunity to shut down your enemies before they can get to your allies. And that's the core tenet of tanking, not crappy 1/day abilities.

[Mehangel]

In the campaign I am playing our party consists of a Magus {Spellblade & Spiderblade Archetypes I think}, Marksman, Monk/Wizard {Zen Archer Archetype}, Psychic Warrior/Machinesmith, and myself as a Soulknife {Nimble & Gifted Archetypes}. With each of us at or around level 12, we have a variety of skills at our disposal. I have the 2nd-3rd highest damage output in the group, I have the highest BAB in the group aswell as the highest AC [Mid 40 (which I can easily increase to 50 if I manifest the powers)]

I am most definitely a threat against whatever I face. However, sometimes the other players (most notably the wizard and marksman) decide that they want a bit of action in the melee (only to find that they bit off more than they could chew).

As for the points listed below:


a) There are other enemies on the field

Well, that is why you travel in a party. And if their are multiple enemies ganging up on the ally, I will pop my Nimble Blades Adaptive Form [Immediate Action] to gain the Mental Power Blade Skill, to acquire the Gifted Blade Power: Dimension Swap which I will then Manifest [Standard Action] to swap places with the ally. I will then regain my Psionic Focus [Move Action thanks to Psionic Mediation].


b) You fail the check against your target

While this is always a possibility, I already have my Intimidate maxed out, and have equipment that also boosts my Intimidate even further. So while it is possible that I fail, it isnt all that likely.


c) You can no longer influence the target because 1 round has passed

If my allies find themselves in trouble against a single opponent that they cannot take on, all they need is one round to put distance between them and the enemy.


You wasted your most important action for the turn to try and make one enemy attack you. What you need to note as well is that this doesn't even specify a melee attack.

True, no arguments there.


They can just shoot you with a bow

Yes they can, but how likely is it that the enemy will be wielding a bow at point blank range against a monk or marksman?


a fireball

Yes they can. But now they spent a spell against me (who has a decent amount of hp, not to mention ridiculous saves especially REFLEX and who also has evasion... Yes they could've cast another spell like I dont know maybe Magic Missile but seriously, Not a big issue for me)


or dominate you into being their new *****.

This actually happened more than once against my character. Eventually, I got myself a permanent means of protection against such.


All of those are attacks allowed by the Antagonize feat.

Yes, but the way I see it, if it is a ranged attack, they just spent their highest attack roll against someone who they have only a 5% chance of hitting (they usually need a Nat 20). And also probably provoked attacks of opportunity against the enemy they were attacking.

If they cast a spell, they just spent a Standard Action and possibly important resources i.e. spells (unless the DM decided to cast a cantrip at myself...)

But if it was a melee attack, it forces them to move toward myself allowing my ally time to escape. Even if it means that I did not deal alot of damage that round.


And that's the core tenet of tanking, not crappy 1/day abilities.

In all honesty, I understand what you are saying, but I encounter corner-case fights where something like the feat antagonize would've been especially useful. As for the feat being 1/day, unless I am reading it wrong, I can only use Antagonize 1/day against a particular enemy. There is no limit to the actual number of times per day that it can be used. Not that I would want to use it in every fight. Just that if I had three encounters that day with different enemies, I could use it in each.

[Elricaltovilla]

I'll apologize in advance if this comes off as a little harsh, but Antagonize makes me angry. Its a bad feat that doesn't do what's advertised and leads people to make awful choices.


In the campaign I am playing our party consists of a Magus {Spellblade & Spiderblade Archetypes I think}, Marksman, Monk/Wizard {Zen Archer Archetype}, Psychic Warrior/Machinesmith, and myself as a Soulknife {Nimble & Gifted Archetypes}. With each of us at or around level 12, we have a variety of skills at our disposal. I have the 2nd-3rd highest damage output in the group, I have the highest BAB in the group aswell as the highest AC [Mid 40 (which I can easily increase to 50 if I manifest the powers)]

I am most definitely a threat against whatever I face. However, sometimes the other players (most notably the wizard and marksman) decide that they want a bit of action in the melee (only to find that they bit off more than they could chew).

I want you to look at the numbers you listed and realize that they matter far less than you think. You have high AC, that's great. How's your Flat-footed? How's your Touch AC? Fortitude? Reflex? Will? There are dozens of ways to hit you that make an AC of 40 mean nothing. And if you want to tank, you need to anticipate all of them.


Well, that is why you travel in a party. And if their are multiple enemies ganging up on the ally, I will pop my Nimble Blades Adaptive Form [Immediate Action] to gain the Mental Power Blade Skill, to acquire the Gifted Blade Power: Dimension Swap which I will then Manifest [Standard Action] to swap places with the ally. I will then regain my Psionic Focus [Move Action thanks to Psionic Mediation].

Not if you're a tank. If you're a Tank, the party travels with you so that you can protect them from enemies while they lay down the hurt. That's your job, and if you can't do it, then don't tank.

If there are three enemies, and you use antagonize on one of them, then you just gave the other two free reign to go eat your allies.


While this is always a possibility, I already have my Intimidate maxed out, and have equipment that also boosts my Intimidate even further. So while it is possible that I fail, it isnt all that likely.

But it can still happen. At which point, you're useless. Worse than useless, actually since now you've left your allies open to a charging barbarian pounce attack.


If my allies find themselves in trouble against a single opponent that they cannot take on, all they need is one round to put distance between them and the enemy.

Or, and here's a thought, you could actually be effective at the role and then your allies would almost never have to worry about that enemy hitting them in the first place. I get that mistakes sometimes happen, and you can't always protect everyone, but "Oh, then its their problem" isn't the answer to a missed enemy. You think your allies will just run away from the enemy, but if you've spent any time playing MMOs then you know how stupid DPS can get.

The job of a tank is to keep enemies off of the DPS so they don't have to waste time running away. That double move action that the wizard had to use because you let an enemy get past you? That's two spells he could have used to take out enemies. When you don't tank properly, you're hurting the entire team.


Yes they can, but how likely is it that the enemy will be wielding a bow at point blank range against a monk or marksman?

They won't be. They'll be 20+ ft. away unloading a full attack with haste, rapid shot, clustered shots and deadly aim to put eleven arrows into your ally before they can even move.


Yes they can. But now they spent a spell against me (who has a decent amount of hp, not to mention ridiculous saves especially REFLEX and who also has evasion... Yes they could've cast another spell like I dont know maybe Magic Missile but seriously, Not a big issue for me)

Look at the wizard/sorcerer spell list. How many of those spells target Fortitude? How about Will? What about Touch AC? How many just make you suck without even giving you a chance to fight back? Magic Missile isn't the issue. Black tentacles, Stinking Cloud, Wall of Fire/Ice/Force, Dominate/Charm Person, Hold Person, heck even compel hostility can put you at a serious disadvantage. And quite a few of those I listed are area effects that can still hit your allies. You might be able to make the save against a Maximized Empowered Fireball and walk away unscathed, but the rest of your party might not.


This actually happened more than once against my character. Eventually, I got myself a permanent means of protection against such.

It sucked didn't it? Now think about all the other spells that you could fail to save against. Think about the spells your party could fail to save against.


Yes, but the way I see it, if it is a ranged attack, they just spent their highest attack roll against someone who they have only a 5% chance of hitting (they usually need a Nat 20). And also probably provoked attacks of opportunity against the enemy they were attacking.

If they cast a spell, they just spent a Standard Action and possibly important resources i.e. spells (unless the DM decided to cast a cantrip at myself...)

But if it was a melee attack, it forces them to move toward myself allowing my ally time to escape. Even if it means that I did not deal alot of damage that round.

As a tank, your job is to anticipate every worst case scenario and figure out how to beat it.

NPCs don't have important resources, they don't live long enough to bother, so they will nova all over you until you are dead. You and your party are the BBEGs of their campaign.

Again, you managed to successfully distract one enemy for one round. What about the other enemies, the other rounds? And you're not going to remove that guy from the board on the turn you Antagonize, meaning that he's got at least one more turn to make you regret your decision.


In all honesty, I understand what you are saying, but I encounter corner-case fights where something like the feat antagonize would've been especially useful. As for the feat being 1/day, unless I am reading it wrong, I can only use Antagonize 1/day against a particular enemy. There is no limit to the actual number of times per day that it can be used. Not that I would want to use it in every fight. Just that if I had three encounters that day with different enemies, I could use it in each.

Yes, 1/day against each enemy. Which is still effectively 1/day, because at the start of that enemy's turn he is not dead, not staggered, stunned or otherwise inconvenienced and not even a little bit distraught. Your best case scenario is that you get a guy to move adjacent to you and set him up to make a full attack against you. That's your best case scenario. Your worst case scenario is you target an enemy wizard or dragon and wipes out your entire party with an AOE attack.

The good news is that as a Soulknife, you have some options for tanking that are unique to you. You can use Emulate Melee weapon to make your Mindblade a Whip for whip based goodies such as adjacent+reach attacks, tripping, dirty trick, and grapple bonuses via the whip mastery feats. The ice blade and freezing ice blade skills can lock enemies in place, keeping them from getting to your allies. Lightning Blade can impose a penalty on attack rolls. Thunder Blade can stagger enemies, preventing them from moving and attacking at the same time. Trade Blows is a bit like the 3.5 Karmic Strike, allowing you to hit enemies who try to attack you.

The best way to tank in Pathfinder is to stand between your enemies and your allies and set up some sort of zone through which enemies either can't cross or if they do so are debilitated, damaged and disabled by doing so. AoOs are your friends, as are actions which stop enemy movement or apply debuffs like entangled, blinded, staggered, prone, etc.

[Red Fel]

Elric may come across as a bit angry, but he's making a very solid point. This feat will not solve your problems, not even remotely, unless your DM is basically just throwing you bones. (If he is, feel free to disregard the rest of this post - if your DM is giving you an easy game, and you like it, then sit back and enjoy it, and more power to you.)

In particular, I'd like to focus on this comment:

The best way to tank in Pathfinder is to stand between your enemies and your allies and set up some sort of zone through which enemies either can't cross or if they do so are debilitated, damaged and disabled by doing so. AoOs are your friends, as are actions which stop enemy movement or apply debuffs like entangled, blinded, staggered, prone, etc.
This is the gist of it.

The thing about Antagonize, specifically the Intimidate function, is that it gives you a net negative. Let me explain. You use your standard action against one opponent to force it to attack you. That's your standard action, gone. If it can, it will then attack you. Let us assume that it is within melee range - it will then make a full attack against you. That's it's full action. On the next turn, it is immune, and can easily ignore you. You have only delayed it by one round, and you have come out the worse for wear. Now, consider what would happen if it had area attacks, as Elric mentioned. Unless you are standing far away from the people you are supposed to protect, an area attack that hits you will likely hit them, rendering your Antagonize action completely wasted.

This is all assuming that: Your target can understand you (i.e. you can speak its language) Your target has an Int score greater than three (i.e. is not an animal) Your target is not immune to mind-affecting effects (i.e. is not undead) You make your skill check (possible, but not guaranteed, particularly against enemies with high HD and Wis)Because if you face something that doesn't satisfy one of these rules, or you don't make your skill check, your Antagonize is, again, completely wasted.

There are certain abilities that do not require a check at all. Others that provide a passive benefit, without requiring action on your part, allowing a net positive in the action economy. Still others that last for more than one round, or combine with an attack to allow you to deal damage and disable an opponent. Antagonize does none of these things - it wastes your action in exchange for a one-shot possibility of getting your PC mauled for one round. You're hurting yourself more than you realize. Literally.

What you need isn't an ability that makes you a target, or rather, isn't an ability that just makes you a target. You need things that do more. As Elric points out, you need your abilities to lock down enemies. If an enemy can move away from you and towards a juicier target, it will; find a way to stop it. If an enemy can target your squishies from afar, it will; find a way to stop it. If your enemy can take an action, it will; find a way to stop it from doing anything. An enemy that can't perform any actions is no threat to anybody, yourself included. Tanking doesn't necessarily mean you have to take abuse; it means you have to stop an enemy from inflicting it. There is a world of difference between the two.

That said, as I mentioned earlier, if your DM lets you get away with it, then bask in the glow - you've entered easy-mode, and you can live it up.

[Mehangel]

This is all assuming that:

Your target can understand you (i.e. you can speak its language)
Your target has an Int score greater than three (i.e. is not an animal)
Your target is not immune to mind-affecting effects (i.e. is not undead)
You make your skill check (possible, but not guaranteed, particularly against enemies with high HD and Wis)

Because if you face something that doesn't satisfy one of these rules, or you don't make your skill check, your Antagonize is, again, completely wasted.

I will start off by saying that I was surprised at the conviction that Elric had about how horrible the feat was. Needless to say both Elric and Red Fel have addressed it in such a manner that I will not be taking the feat.

I will say that my character already employs tactics that slow, stun, trip, etc. And if we adventured in dungeons or crypts with passages no wider than 15ft, tanking wouldn't be an issue. The thing is however, is that our party usually adventures in wide open spaces (currently in a desert) and usually have enemies either:

A) Come in on multiple flanks.
B) Fly in from above. or
C) Teleport all over the field.

In situations like this, I cannot possibly keep every single enemy from attacking the squishies. And because we have had experience with spellcasters in the past, we usually spread out.

I understand now that action economy says that me wasting a standard action isnt worth what Antagonizes accomplishes. But I was really hoping for something effective to draw enemies toward myself instead of chasing after opponents.

[Elricaltovilla]

The thing is however, is that our party usually adventures in wide open spaces (currently in a desert) and usually have enemies either:

A) Come in on multiple flanks.
B) Fly in from above. or
C) Teleport all over the field.

Fortunately this is still a solvable problem.:smallamused:

The first step is to maximize your threatened area. As I've mentioned before, whips are really good for this, they're like the spiked chain of Pathfinder. With a whip and the Improved Whip Master feat, you threaten squares within 5 and 10 ft. of you. Add Lunge for an extra 5 ft. to your threatened area for 15 ft. at a measly -2 AC. Then, enlarge person or equivalent (i.e. expansion) to add another 5 ft. to your reach and make you Large size so you take up more space. So now that you've got a threatened area of 20 ft. we need to increase your mobility.

In Pathfinder and 3.5 its very difficult if not impossible to force a creature to come to you without resorting to mind control (at which point you might as well mind control them to just sit down and do nothing). So instead you need to find ways to get to your enemies. First, increase your movement speed. Boots of Striding and Sprining for +10 ft. and haste for another +30 ft. That should get you up to 70 ft. of movement per round, plenty to cover most maps.

Now that you have the threatened area and the move speed, you need a way to use that movement speed outside your turn. For that, we turn to Combat Patrol (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/combat-patrol-combat). The prerequisites are a little stiff (dodge and mobility aren't too useful), but read what the feat does. It increases your threatened area by 5 ft. per 5 points of BAB, at level 20 you've added another 20 ft. to your already massive threatened area. But wait! There's more! You can move and make attacks of opportunity against targets within this threatened area even when its not your turn. This feat is actually the secret ingredient of the Warder's Defensive Focus that makes it so deliciously dangerous.

With the Whip, Improved Whip Mastery, Lunge and Combat Patrol you have a 40 ft. threatened area and a 70 ft. movement speed in which to use it. Monitor your movement carefully, so that you don't exceed your limit, and make your AoO trip, stagger, entangle attempts against targets to keep them preoccupied while your party fights. Check with your DM as to whether your threatened area moves with you or not, since Combat Patrol doesn't specify, but if it does, you're even more golden than you were before since you can keep moving and not worry about leaving your patrol zone.


In situations like this, I cannot possibly keep every single enemy from attacking the squishies. And because we have had experience with spellcasters in the past, we usually spread out.

When the enemy always ambushes you and comes in from multiple edges it can definitely get tricky. That's going to take some proper communication with the party, unfortunately. But if the party learns that you can set up a 40 ft. zone of nope to protect them, then they'll learn to be more comfortable with bunching up a bit so you can protect them all.


I understand now that action economy says that me wasting a standard action isnt worth what Antagonizes accomplishes. But I was really hoping for something effective to draw enemies toward myself instead of chasing after opponents.

I'm glad you learned your lesson.:smalltongue:

Unfortunately, forcing enemies to move towards you isn't really something you can do in Pathfinder. As a tank, you have to stick to them in order to make them stick to you.

[BWR]

Add Lunge for an extra 5 ft. to your threatened area for 15 ft. at a measly -2 AC.

Unless I am misremembering, Lunge only lasts until the end of your turn, so no extra threatened area.

[Elricaltovilla]

Unless I am misremembering, Lunge only lasts until the end of your turn, so no extra threatened area.

Sadly you seem to be correct. Which is weird, because it means that mythic lunge doesn't work. Maybe I'll go press Paizo for a FAQ.

But even without lunge, you still have a 35 ft. threatened area which is pretty impressive.