Just had my first TPK as a DM, how should I feel?

[Manatee]

So, in all my years playing and DMing, we have always pulled punches to allow either mid fight rescues or quick retreats. This campaign though, my players decided they wanted to play it straight, and all deaths are final.

Playing one of the Pathfinder adventure paths, Second Darkness, they are going into the side quest where they clear out a church full of bandits. The bandits completely Tucker's Kobolds them. This was in part to me playing the bandits correctly and the players making some bad rolls and bad choices (like splitting the party). Now my players are laughing it up and really enjoying trying to come up with better characters.

The question is, should I be as happy as I am about this? I do not feel bad for the players, as they wanted it and one of them specifically said, today, that they had never had a character die during a quest. I do however think my personal alignment may have shifted south a bit due to the personal joy I felt from this experience.

I would also like to open this discussion up to any stories of other TPKs that seemed to improve the mood of the game.

[Honest Tiefling]

A well-written tragedy can be an enjoyable experience. A game lost well can be satisfying. As long as everyone had fun you are doing it well. Your players asked for something, you delivered honestly. If your alignment went south, then you just turned evil for doing what they wanted and providing a good time. And good on them for being mature and open with what they want too.

[Vhaidara]

As long as no one is upset, no harm done. There is a perverse pleasure to be gained from a well executed TPK. By well executed, I mean more Tucker's Kobolds and less "Hey, you guys are level 3. Have 5 million Pit Fiend!"

[redwizard007]

I can't remember the exact setup , but the party is traveling in a swamp on an ACTUAL hunt for a Dragon that they KNOW is going to be a bit rough based on CR but there are clerics in town... Somebody always survives... Blah, blah... They miff a bunch of spot/listen checks. Black Dragon casts darkness and leaves its watery hiding place to go airborne... Party clusters... Bard starts singing... Acid breath... Garbage saves... TPK.

It's my only TPK ever and I still feel a little guilty, but the good kind of guilty, whenever it's brought up. My players have fought multiple dragons of different DCs since with varying degrees of success, but they treat dragons with the caution and respect the big lizards deserve. I might feel bad with a TPK from a lot of big bads, but never from dragons.

[Squirrel_Dude]

Feel proud you were able to no pull punches and that you were able to smartly run the encounter. It's hard and uncommon to outthink 4 other people with you have 4 times as many people to manage.

[Troacctid]

If everyone was still excited and having fun, you must have done something right. :smallwink:

[Yahzi]

So, in all my years playing and DMing,
And in all your years going forward, this is the game they will remember the most.

[Manatee]

This will be the game they remember the most, but mostly from their own bad choices costing them. They skipped making a search check that would reveal the next plot point, and instead tracked down a druid to cast speak with animals to talk to the snake they just beat up, they intentionally split the party multiple times, They regularly threatened helpful NPCs before talking to them causing the NPC to distrust the players.

They wanted to play LE and I let them. They just had to pay the price for playing CE instead of their listed alignments. All said and done though, they loved it and one of them is STILL working on their character's replacement in my kitchen for when we pick this back up. Not pulling punches was fun, but I hope they can actually advance the plot next time.

[Gnome Alone]

Wouldn't be nearly as much of a thrill in surviving crazy **** if you couldn't actually die; this sourness shall make every victory all the sweeter, which is why they're all gleeful about it, I think. That and it sounds hilarious.

So, the game was bad and you should feel bad!

...sorry, I'm just contractually obligated to throw in as many Futurama quotes and paraphrases as is humanly possible.↓

[atemu1234]

If there's no hard feelings, then feel free to laugh it up with them.

[RoboEmperor]

In some of my games TPK is very common. Consequence is not game over but my DM gives these instead
1. Total annihilation of all equipment (including gold)
2. 1 con penalty
3. Massive debt (half of your WBL). Failure to pay off results in slavery, which is an escape "quest"

Our rescuers is some insurance company.Their branch in any area has a level 20 wizard and cleric, and lower level wizards scrying their potential customers 24/7

My DM says he doesn't want to lower the difficulty so it's "beatable" at our skill level, neither does he wants the campaign to just end prematurely because of our noobiness or unlucky die rolls.

As for recovering from WBL (which is especially devastating to wizards), buy backup gear and hide them here and there, put money in a bank, spend some time making money with profession, crafting, etc., or roll a character completely independent of equipment.

[The Insanity]

Praud. 10 letter limit

[goto124]

Just... how was it possible to make a TPK that's actually satisfying?

[Genoin]

As one of the 2 players in the original scenario (the one who was actually playing as LE), the only real mistake I made was going back to help the other player after initially escaping out the back door when they went full CE and started threatening to murderhobo a random priest. It just went downhill from there.

[skypse]

Just... how was it possible to make a TPK that's actually satisfying?

A well organized scenario, no overwhelming stuff for the group unless they do something stupid like the OP mentioned they split. In general, a satisfying TPK can happen if the group has an actual chance of NOT dying if they think all their options, fight strategically and have average rolls.

[BWR]

Just... how was it possible to make a TPK that's actually satisfying?

You do it like the one where we wiped against a glabrezu. We were not terribly high-level, something like 7th . We had passed a trapped glabrezu - obviously meant as a piece of flavor rather than a combat encounter, curbstomped all other opposition in the dungeon, leaving everyone at almost full power. Tactics and the dice were with us. "Let's take that trapped demon" some idiot player then said, and all the other idiot players agreed. I protested both in character and out of character, saying that monster was a bit too powerful for us. Everyone else ignored my protests and I went along with them.
First thing it does upon being released is hit me with PW:stun for 14 rounds. Had I gotten out one round earlier we would have won, since the bastard was down to 2 hp then. Technically I would have won because the last PC but mine died round 13.
It was at the time a rather annoying TPK since it was entirely due to our own overconfidence yet awesome because we were that close to taking down something far more powerful than us.

[redwizard007]

You do it like the one where we wiped against a glabrezu. We were not terribly high-level, something like 7th . We had passed a trapped glabrezu - obviously meant as a piece of flavor rather than a combat encounter, curbstomped all other opposition in the dungeon, leaving everyone at almost full power. Tactics and the dice were with us. "Let's take that trapped demon" some idiot player then said, and all the other idiot players agreed. I protested both in character and out of character, saying that monster was a bit too powerful for us. Everyone else ignored my protests and I went along with them.
First thing it does upon being released is hit me with PW:stun for 14 rounds. Had I gotten out one round earlier we would have won, since the bastard was down to 2 hp then. Technically I would have won because the last PC but mine died round 13.
It was at the time a rather annoying TPK sine it was entirely due to our own overconfidence yet awesome because we were that close to taking down something far more powerful than we had almost no chance to win against.

I can only imagine what was going through your DM's head... Poor guy must have sounded like Yosemite Sam. Fight the glabrezu...

Love it!

[Spore]

Just... how was it possible to make a TPK that's actually satisfying?

Personally I enjoy a tactical defeat from a meta level however this doesn't mean TPK depending on the fought NPCs and monsters. An ogre or shadow will kill you (and possibly spawn you as a minor shadow) but a bandit would possibly hold ransom if you are worth something alive.

As for Manatee I would really try for your PCs to create characters loosely related to the killed PCs. Not all PCs should be related though but a simple "those vile people killed my fellow paladin brother" can spawn enough tension for your PCs to go directly to the place of defeat, invoke enough seriousness to not get butchered a second time and continue the work of your fallen friend.

[Elkad]

Feel proud you were able to no pull punches and that you were able to smartly run the encounter. It's hard and uncommon to outthink 4 other people with you have 4 times as many people to manage.

What? It's far EASIER to coordinate a mass of creatures as DM than it is to get your fellow adventurers to work in a cohesive fashion.

That's exactly what Tucker's Kobolds is. Superior teamwork and tactics guided by a single hand. The carefully crafted terrain was only necessary because of the large level disparity.

[Honest Tiefling]

What? It's far EASIER to coordinate a mass of creatures as DM than it is to get your fellow adventurers to work in a cohesive fashion...

Coordinate, yes. Manage, as in, remember all of the details and use every unit to full effectiveness...Sometimes.

I think PCs work in two ways, either they want to kill each other and everything associated with them, or they scarily think alike for all the wrong reasons.

[atemu1234]

Coordinate, yes. Manage, as in, remember all of the details and use every unit to full effectiveness...Sometimes.

I think PCs work in two ways, either they want to kill each other and everything associated with them, or they scarily think alike for all the wrong reasons.

Read: Bum rush the glabrezu.

[Grommen]

If I don't kill a man every now and then, they forget who I am.
-Blackbeard, Pirates of the Caribbean IV

[PsyBomb]

TPKs can be entertaining, and I find that as long as the players either had a legitimate chance and things just turned out poorly, or else they really just bought it for themselves, there aren't hard feelings.

Best one I ever had actually came against a very overconfident party of level 15-ish characters, going for a city defense. Now, I had a lot of skirmishes planned in the streets, ambushes, city at war kind of chapter planned. They looked at it differently, and five of them went out of the gates against a literal army. It wasn't pretty.

To their credit, they killed something on the order of two hundred opponents. However, when the enemy is two THOUSAND strong, simple statistics state that eventually enough hits are going to get through. Doubly true with a smart general and a party wizard who enjoyed the Merlin look. The Barbarian ended up taking a direct hit from a ballista to take down. An hour of dice after the decision, they all basically apologized and we got to start a new campaign, now having learned the perils of hubris.

[The Insanity]

Five 15th level adventurers died to an army? Man, what wimps.

[goto124]

TPKs can be entertaining, and I find that as long as the players either had a legitimate chance and things just turned out poorly, or else they really just bought it for themselves, there aren't hard feelings.

They looked at it differently, and five of them went out of the gates against a literal army. It wasn't pretty.

To their credit, they killed something on the order of two hundred opponents. However, when the enemy is two THOUSAND strong, simple statistics state that eventually enough hits are going to get through.

Apologies, but I'm not sure why the party didn't think of this as the DM trying to wipe out the party. They didn't realise there was a real war going on. Does this count as 'bought it for themselves'? Why not let them retreat to plan and prepare properly?

I guess part of the reason is that they'd had an epic and enjoyable fight. Still...

[MrMercury]

Five 15th level adventurers died to an army? Man, what wimps.


Depends on what kind of Army, really. And if they had spellcasters or not (I'm thinking a 2000 strong army would have quite a few spellcasters). Unlucky rolls against slay living humbles us all.

Edit:


Apologies, but I'm not sure why the party didn't think of this as the DM trying to wipe out the party. They didn't realise there was a real war going on. Does this count as 'bought it for themselves'? Why not let them retreat to plan and prepare properly?

I guess part of the reason is that they'd had an epic and enjoyable fight. Still...

Well come on. They charged out against an Army 2000 strong. So I guess it does count as "bought it on themselves"

[PsyBomb]

Apologies, but I'm not sure why the party didn't think of this as the DM trying to wipe out the party. They didn't realise there was a real war going on. Does this count as 'bought it for themselves'? Why not let them retreat to plan and prepare properly?

I guess part of the reason is that they'd had an epic and enjoyable fight. Still...

By the time they realized what the numbers of enemies meant, it would have been difficult at best for anyone but the wizard to get out. They charged, basically.

[MrMercury]

By the time they realized what the numbers of enemies meant, it would have been difficult at best for anyone but the wizard to get out. They charged, basically.

And again, if the army had spellcasters (Dimension Lock, True seeing, ect.) the wizard would have trouble escaping

[Bucky]

A 2000-man army is nominally at least CR 20. Higher if even a few % of the army is mid-level spellcasters. Which means the 5 15th levels should generally be in trouble if they can't take the fight on their own terms.