Jack B. Quick doubt and help

[bootzin]

Ok, Firstly and most importantly, I have a doubt that I'm desperate to find out the answer: How does Jack B. Quick make 6 attacks when he is hit by one? I mean, you can only perform a single attack in an Attack of Opportunity, so he can't possibly hit with his Sword AND Axe to get the free trip (Or can he?) and even so, he may only make one (or 2 with ITWF) additional attack using his off hand per round, which means he wouldn't be able to use all of his AoOs effectively using both Robilar's Gambit and Karmic Strike. Can someone clarify this for me? I'm in love with the build, but I just can't figure how does it works

The second question is secondary, but I wanted some help building a Jack B. Faster build. I want to keep the idea of a main fighter, but I want to buff him a little bit.
Basically, it is as follows: I'm planning on going Fighter 16/Any 4, where this any I thought about barbarian Whirling Frenzy, Psywar 2 and maybe a level of monk, but suggestions are accepted.
Moreover, the feat progression of our campaign is like PF: every odd level, so I have around 3 feats more. Feat retraining is allowed. Any suggestions?

[OldTrees1]

Karmic Strike + Robilar's Gambit give you 2 AoOs per attack/hit the opponent makes (until you exhaust your 1+Dex modifier AoOs per round)

Double Hit allows you to use 1 AoO to attack once each with both weapons you are dual wielding.

High Sword Low Axe gives you a free Trip attack if you hit an opponent with each weapon at least once in a round.


So 1 Hit -> 2 AoOs -> 4 Attacks -> Trigger HSLA for +1 Trip -> Trigger Improved Trip for +1 Attack.
5 Attacks and 1 Trip

[bootzin]

Got it.. That's pretty much clarifying, thx a lot
I guess what messed me up was the fact that the original post says the build works at level 9 while he only gets Double Hit at level 10, so I wondered how did he made an extra attack to trigger the trip at 9th level, but I guess the autor made a typo or sth :P

Also, I think I could do this without Double strike, as long as I had Whirling Frenzy ACF, as it gives me an extra attack, that can be made on an AoO

Anyway, thx for the help :)

If anyone has any build advices, they'd be appreciated (:

[OldTrees1]

Got it.. That's pretty much clarifying, thx a lot
I guess what messed me up was the fact that the original post says the build works at level 9 while he only gets Double Hit at level 10, so I wondered how did he made an extra attack to trigger the trip at 9th level, but I guess the autor made a typo or sth :P

Also, I think I could do this without Double strike, as long as I had Whirling Frenzy ACF, as it gives me an extra attack, that can be made on an AoO

Anyway, thx for the help :)

If anyone has any build advices, they'd be appreciated (:

IIRC Whirling Frenzy only gives an extra attack during a full attack (like Speed and Haste that it is modeled after)

[Baroknik]

Got it.. That's pretty much clarifying, thx a lot
I guess what messed me up was the fact that the original post says the build works at level 9 while he only gets Double Hit at level 10, so I wondered how did he made an extra attack to trigger the trip at 9th level, but I guess the autor made a typo or sth :P

Also, I think I could do this without Double strike, as long as I had Whirling Frenzy ACF, as it gives me an extra attack, that can be made on an AoO

Anyway, thx for the help :)

If anyone has any build advices, they'd be appreciated (:

Not a typo, but you only get 3 attacks, +1 trip:
Karmic Strike --> weapon 1
Robilar's Gambit --> weapon 2
HSLA --> trip attempt
Improved Trip. --> attack 3

[AvatarVecna]

IIRC Whirling Frenzy only gives an extra attack during a full attack (like Speed and Haste that it is modeled after)

Not quite...


A barbarian with this variant form of rage doesn't gain the normal bonuses when he enters a rage. Instead, when a barbarian with whirling frenzy enters a rage, he temporarily gains a +4 bonus to Strength and a +2 dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves.

While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round, this penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action.

Whirling frenzy is otherwise identical to the standard barbarian rage in all other ways. At 11th level (when a standard barbarian gains greater rage), the Strength bonus increases to +6, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +3. At 20th level (when a standard barbarian gains might rage), the Strength bonus increases to +8, and the dodge bonus to Armor Class and on Reflex saves increases to +4.

A barbarian using this variant doesn't gain indomitable will at 14th level. Instead, he gains evasion, but only while in a whirling frenzy.

A character can't use whirling frenzy at the same time that he uses any other form of rage (or similar ability).

"While in a whirling frenzy, the barbarian may make one extra attack in a round at his highest base attack bonus, but this attack takes a -2 penalty, as does each other attack made that round, this penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the barbarian might make before his next action."

The important words here are "may", "extra", and "round". Here's my take on it:


A barbarian with the Whirling Frenzy ACF can enter a Whirling Frenzy as they would enter a normal rage. While in a WF, if the barbarian intends to attack during their turn, they can make an additional attack at full BAB; in exchange, all attacks made that round (whether on their turn or AoOs) take a -2 penalty to the attack roll. Since the ability doesn't specify that it can only be applied to a full round action, I would argue that it applies in any situation where the barbarian attacks during their turn.

It should be noted that, while almost universally a superior option, the extra attack is, in fact, optional; if the situation calls for far more accuracy than speed, the extra attack option can be ignored so that the character can focus on hitting. That said, I'm pretty sure that the only situation where taking an extra attack with all attacks at -2 is the inferior option is if your opponents AC is so high that taking the attack means you need a 19-20 to hit them; if the barbarian is having trouble hitting the enemies AC, it's likely that force of arms isn't the best method for defeating this opponent, even if they're anywhere near your level.

Now, for some caveats:

1) Although the ACF uses the word "round", since the extra attack is an option that must be specifically chosen on a round-to-round basis, I would say that, in order to make use of the ability, the option would have to be chosen on the characters turn, rather than as a reaction to another's actions. This is based on a similar principle with the Power Attack feat: as a general rule, I wouldn't allow a player to activate Power Attack outside of their turn, so I wouldn't allow them to activate this or similar abilities outside of their turn either.

2) Due to the use of the word "extra", being interpreted here as "additional", I wouldn't allow the player to make use of this option if they weren't already attacking in a round; simply put, I would say you have to make an attack to make an extra attack; if you don't attack, you don't get an extra attack.

3) I'm only bringing up this caveat because this thread is about AoO abuse, and bootzin brought this up specifically: I would be extremely leery of any player who wanted to use this option, but wanted to save the extra attack for an AoO they expected to make this round; the RAW is unclear on this matter (due to the confusing use of both "round" and "action" in the ACF description), the RAI seems definitely against it, and it seems like the kind of thing that would only come up when munchkinry and cheese were involved. Thus, my gut feeling would be to say no to allowing such a thing, although I could probably be persuaded by a decent RAW argument (assuming the player didn't abuse it).

Just thought I'd share my thoughts on this ACF.

[bootzin]

Not a typo, but you only get 3 attacks, +1 trip:
Karmic Strike --> weapon 1
Robilar's Gambit --> weapon 2
HSLA --> trip attempt
Improved Trip. --> attack 3
That's why I said it was a typo, you don't have Robilar's gambit on level 9, nor Double Hit, which won't allow your second attack to trigger the trip

Whirling Frenzy actually gives you an extra attack in the whole round, which, IMO, means you may use it in one of yours AoO but not on all of them.

My DM said the following: Although I can use it in any point at the turn, all of the attacks I make in the turn takes the -2 penalty, which means that if I plan to use it on an AoO, I have to take a -2 penalty on my normal attack as well. That said, it basically means I won't receive the bonus for the WF extra STR bonus.

Also, I've looked around, and found somethings that could help me improve the build, although it's a little bit cheesy: I get a high critical range weapon with aptitude enhancement, get lightning maces feat and improved critical, which would get me a 75% chance to get an extra attack.

The whole problem I see on this build is that, as Jack needs a high dex for the AoO, high con to get all the Karmic Strikes attacks and high str to hit, he can't max out str to pass every trip attempt, which can lead to quite a lot of trips over Jack.. Any ideas on this?