Packmaster All Vermin Companions Help

[Scolopendra]

So I'm still pretty new about the whole Pathfinder and D&D thing in general and need some advice so bear with me :smallfrown: . I have only done one full campaign. Was a Grippli Alchemist and I did pretty well. But time for a new campaign and I really want to be a Hunter and more specifically a Packmaster.

Campaign is going to be primarily in warm and tropical environment( mainly jungles but possibly some desert or tropical island stuff too). We are expecting to get to at least 13 in levels starting from level 1.

I prefer both a variety and a theme and my DM said since they know how much I love bugs if I want to I can combine the Packmaster with the Verminous Hunter so I can have a weird swarm at my command.

My problem is I haven't the slightest clue how to make a good combo of companions especially if they are all vermin. From what i can tell a lot of the vermin companions aren't exactly the best thing ever compared to a lot of animals. Here is what I was thinking:

Level 1 take a giant scorpion
Level 2 take a giant mantis (as far as I can tell these two are the best two vermin companions)
I want to use Boon Companion on both to get both of them to 7th level as soon as possible because both seem significantly more deadly.
I would like a third but I honestly don't know... I was thinking about a wasp or ant. I would take a centipede but they seem almost useless...I might use the 3rd as a mount since despite how awesome riding a scorpion or mantis seems that seems like it might hinder them a lot in combat.
If I get all 3 two 7th level I was thinking of getting a giant spider as a scout due to small size,decent speed and tremor sense and a venomous bite though this may be kinda useless.
Or I may just put 1 level into a leech just so i can sick it on one of my party members in her sleep :smallbiggrin:

Should I raise the intelligence of all of them as high as possible? The mindless seems like more of a drawback than a help in anyway.Would it be a good idea to be a human with the Eye for Talent trait and give all my bugs +2 in Int so with one more point from the 4th level stat boost or companions they would hit 3 Int and get some decent feats and whatnot. And since Humans can have a bonus feat I take Boon companion at first level so I can start with a Scorpion or Mantis more intelligent than a dog.

Sorry for the massive post and the weird question. Just needed some advice on how to do this. I may ditch the bugs in the end and go with a dino theme so any suggestions on that end? Thanks in advance.

[grarrrg]

First off, Mindless means an Intelligence score of [null]. [null] is NOT the same as 0.
0 +3 equals 3
[null] +3 still equals "-"
So you can never boost your Vermin companion's Intelligence score.


Secondly, Pack-type archetypes are generally considered weak because "horde of weaklings" winds up being worthless at higher levels. Even if Boon Companion shenanigans* are allowed, your companions will fall behind eventually. A level 13 character with _2_ Companions (and shenanigans) will have somewhere between a level 13 and a level 8, or a level 11 and a level 10. Adding a third (or more) companion will only steal levels from your "good" companions, and cost you an extra feat of Boon to get them to a semi-reasonable level.

Packs can be handy at low levels though (do note that Boon Companion caps your companions equal to your level, so "rushing" them to level 7 means you still need to _be_ level 7).
If you want to pursue the Packlord idea, then I highly recommend you stick to TWO companions and no more.


*I am of the belief that Boon Companion applies to _total_ Druid level, not _split_ Druid level, ergo a single class Packmaster would receive ZERO benefit from Boon Companion, as their _total_ Druid level already equals their Character level.

[Scolopendra]

First off, Mindless means an Intelligence score of [null]. [null] is NOT the same as 0.
0 +3 equals 3
[null] +3 still equals "-"
So you can never boost your Vermin companion's Intelligence score.


Secondly, Pack-type archetypes are generally considered weak because "horde of weaklings" winds up being worthless at higher levels. Even if Boon Companion shenanigans* are allowed, your companions will fall behind eventually. A level 13 character with _2_ Companions (and shenanigans) will have somewhere between a level 13 and a level 8, or a level 11 and a level 10. Adding a third (or more) companion will only steal levels from your "good" companions, and cost you an extra feat of Boon to get them to a semi-reasonable level.

Packs can be handy at low levels though (do note that Boon Companion caps your companions equal to your level, so "rushing" them to level 7 means you still need to _be_ level 7).
If you want to pursue the Packlord idea, then I highly recommend you stick to TWO companions and no more.


*I am of the belief that Boon Companion applies to _total_ Druid level, not _split_ Druid level, ergo a single class Packmaster would receive ZERO benefit from Boon Companion, as their _total_ Druid level already equals their Character level.

Thanks for the advice. I know that Packs fall of pretty quickly but most people in my party will be fairly new to the game so I don't think the DM is going to be too harsh on encounters I may not lag too much. But yeah you are right I should probably only have two so they aren't TOO weak.

Yeah I realized after i posted that Boon Companion only scales up to player level. So I can at least keep both of them near my level early on.

On the Intelligence thing I looked it up and apparently( at least through the bonus from level up at 4, 9 and so on) that if applied to the intelligence score of a Vermin companion the Vermin loses mindless and the - changes to 1(Source: Ultimate Magic).I'm not sure if I can get away with applying the racial shenanigans to it though :smallwink:

Mantis/Scorpion combo seems best to me. Or do you think I should just drop it and do something like T-rex/Spino?

Also thanks again. You're a big help.

[Feint's End]

If you are not too concerned about optimisation I would stick with the vermin idea. It sounds pretty awesome and fairly unique compared to the dinos. I think you'll do fairly fine in a new group regardless.

As for the intelligence part. I'm fairly sure that you can't raise it with the +2 by RAW but you might want to ask your dm if it's important to you. in general it isn't necessary though.

[stack]

The packmaster works great in E6, presuming boon companion applies to split druid level.

[Scolopendra]

Hmmm yeah I think I might do more flavor less optimization at this point. If I can't boost intelligence with the human trait I probably won't play a human except that extra feat might come in handy so i can save extra feats that Boon Companion would replace. My problem is there aren't many races that I think would fit with the vermin master concept while also making a somewhat decent hunter. If Lizardfolk had gotten a little love in the Advanced Race Guide that would seem perfect but alas the only thing that screams bug master to me is Grippli. A Kobold with beast bond would be fine but I kinda detest the kobold's massive strength penalty... I suppose a Nagaji would be pretty cool though I wish their handle animal bonus wasn't just on reptiles.... Maybe another campaign if I ever felt like doing the Packmaster thing again a Nagaji with two constrictors would be fun!

Actually i'm thinking about going for max style points and having two mantis instead of having a scorpion and then dual wielding saw-tooth sabers like a Red Mantis Assassin :smallbiggrin: Mantis Master should be fun in a jungle heavy campaign

[grarrrg]

On the Intelligence thing I looked it up and apparently( at least through the bonus from level up at 4, 9 and so on) that if applied to the intelligence score of a Vermin companion the Vermin loses mindless and the - changes to 1(Source: Ultimate Magic)

Upon rereading, this is correct (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/druid/animal-companions).
"Mindless: Vermin companions have no Intelligence score and possess the mindless trait. ... If a vermin animal companion gains an ability score increase (at 4 Hit Dice, 8 Hit Dice, and so on), the druid can apply this increase to the companion's Intelligence, changing it from — to 1,"


As for the intelligence part. I'm fairly sure that you can't raise it with the +2 by RAW but you might want to ask your dm if it's important to you. in general it isn't necessary though.

So the Human +2 INT thing should still work, just not until/unless the Companions are effective level 4.


My problem is there aren't many races that I think would fit with the vermin master concept while also making a somewhat decent hunter. If Lizardfolk ...Grippli. A Kobold ...Nagaji

Have you considered Ratfolk (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/featured-races/arg-ratfolk)? They could fit the flavor, and have fair stats +DEX/INT -STR

[Scolopendra]

Hmmm Ratfolk seems like a good idea. My only thing is I don't really know if getting them to 3 Int is worth it. At 3 Int they can take any feat they are physically capable of but I don't have any experience with companions so I don't know if this will be very helpful at all. I may just take a human regardless and give them +2 in something else plus it might be nice to be a human just once.