Shadow Caller rules clarification and help

[skypse]

Hello Giants!!!!! Happy new year to everyone! Wish you the best and always roll a natural 20 in your lives!

To the point now, I wanted to make a Shadow Caller summoner and I am dealing with some unanswered (yes I did take a look around) problems:

When a shadow caller uses his summon monster ability or casts the summon monster spell, he typically summons creatures from the Shadow Plane or creatures closely associated with shadow. When a creature on the summon monster spell list indicates that it is summoned with either the celestial or the fiendish template based on the alignment of the caster, the creature summoned by the shadow caller has the shadow creature template instead. Furthermore, the summon monster lists are modified in the following ways (these changes also apply to using a higher-level summon spell to summon multiple creatures from a lower-level list).

Summon Monster I: No changes.

Summon Monster II: A shadow caller cannot summon Small elementals or lemures, but instead can summon zoogs.

Summon Monster III: A shadow caller cannot summon dretches or lantern archons, but can summon augur kytons.

Summon Monster IV: A shadow caller cannot summon Medium elementals, hell hounds, hound archons, or mephits, but can summon allips, gloomwings, and shadows.

Summon Monster V: A shadow caller cannot summon babau, bearded devils, bralani azatas, Large elementals, salamanders, or xills, but can summon shadow mastiffs and shae.

Summon Monster VI: A shadow caller cannot summon Huge elementals, erinyes, lillend azatas, or succubi, but can summon cloakers.

Summon Monster VII: A shadow caller cannot summon bebiliths, bone devils, greater elementals, or vrocks, but can summon greater shadows.

Summon Monster VIII: A shadow caller can only summon derghodaemons and young umbral dragons.

Summon Monster IX: A shadow caller can only summon interlocutor kytons and nightwings.

This ability otherwise functions as, and replaces, the summoner's normal summon monster spell-like abilities.

A shadow caller's eidolon is at once a thing of shadow called from the deep of the Shadow Plane and his own shadow; the two are inseparable. When his eidolon manifests, his shadow lengthens and finally detaches from him as a creature unto itself. For as long as the shadow caller's eidolon is manifested, he and the eidolon do not have distinct shadows, regardless of the presence or absence of light. This lack of a shadow replaces the magical symbol that identifies the summoner and his eidolon.

This ability alters the summoner's eidolon ability


1) Does my Eidolon take the Shadow Template or not? It does not specifically says it does in the text, but it says it is summoned from the Shadow Plane which by logic means that it should have the Shadow Template by default.
2) Can someone explain to me the difference between the two highlighted parts?

[stack]

It does not say that you apply the any template to your eidolon, so you do not.

Functionally, there is little difference between the highlighted portions. The part about the eidolon is just a modification, given that all it changes mechanically is the mark you and the eidolon display. Summon monster gets a bigger change. Its also easier to get a dm to let you stack templates if abilities are only altered instead of replaced, though I don't believe any other archetypes change the mark.

[skypse]

So how can a creature summoned directly from the Shadow Plane NOT have the Shadow Template on it? :S

[Yanisa]

1) Nope. Technically all eidolon are summoned from a different plane, but the only way to emulate templates native to that plane is by giving the eidolon the right evolutions.

2) I guess Shadow Summoning is telling you that the is ability is replaced, so you cannot take another archetype that changes or replaces Summon monster, but still uses the core of the ability for uses per day and durations. In contrast the Shadow Eidolon has a small cosmetic part changed, but it doesn't replace the ability nor change any of the rule mechanics.

Edit: Sort of ninjad, but let me add this: There are creature native to the shadow plane without the shadow template. Coming from a plane doesn't grand a template by default.

[Feint's End]

So how can a creature summoned directly from the Shadow Plane NOT have the Shadow Template on it? :S

The shadow template is to turn non specific creatures (like a human for example) into shadow creatures. As has been said this doesn't apply to your Eidolon which already stems from that plane. You can pick evolutions to get the crunch if you need it.

Also there is no much sense in discussing this since RAW and RAI are both clear.

[skypse]

In contrast the Shadow Eidolon has a small cosmetic part changed, but it doesn't replace the ability nor change any of the rule mechanics.

Would this mean that I could combine Shadow Caller with let's say Synthesist?

Thanks for all the replies.

[Feint's End]

Would this mean that I could combine Shadow Caller with let's say Synthesist?

Thanks for all the replies.

The wording is a bit off but it should work. So yes.

[Yanisa]

The wording is a bit off but it should work. So yes.

A word for word strict will DM says no, because archetype stacking uses both replace and alter.

A character can take more than one archetype and garner additional alternate class features, but none of the alternate class features can replace or alter the same class feature from the base class as another alternate class feature.

But oddly enough the term alter is rarely used to indicate a changed class feature, instead they often use "works like and replaces". Hence I feel the "alter" in Shadowcaller is not the "alter" referenced in the rules about archetype stacking, especially because they use the common term earlier. But a strict DM won't allow it... it's dubious at best.

(However ACG seems to use alter a lot... (I guess to safe ink. That was a huge point in ACP archetypes, 1 page per class) Shadowcaller is the only archetypes that uses alter before ACG it seems.)