Diehard Feat on a Vampire

[Fallenreality]

Would taking diehard on a vampire have any benefit? I'm assuming it doesn't but I just want to make sure.

[Namfuak]

Would taking diehard on a vampire have any benefit? I'm assuming it doesn't but I just want to make sure.

If the vampire is a player, it may be ruled that he gets the 0 to -9 grace zone, in which case it would still have some use. If not or if it's an NPC the feat is indeed useless since they are immediately destroyed when they have <= 0 HP, so becoming stable doesn't help. There is also the point that the prerequisite feat only helps with fortitude and constitution saves which an undead would never have to make.

[stack]

Diehard won't help a vampire, RAW or RAI as far as I can tell. Unless it is being used as a pre-req for something I wouldn't bother anyhow.

A similar issue comes up with summon good monster (PF feat), since summons poof at 0.

[Fallenreality]

Yeah, I'm mainly asking due to the character I'm making.

There is a very solid chance he'll become a vampire at some point (possibly using the Lords of the Night stuff from DSP) but as I'm gestaling with Occultist I was thinking of binding http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/binding-spirits/spirits/hexus. I just wanted to check if I would get any use out of the Undying ability.

[stack]

Well, you die at -(con score * 2), so 2*0=0. It technically works!

Caveat - need to read Lords of Night to see if the vampires are Con - to be certain, only briefly skimmed it.

[BWR]

As a DM I'd allow Diehard to key off Charisma, considering undeads have this little thing:


No Constitution score. Undead use their Charisma score in place of their Constitution score when calculating hit points, Fortitude saves, and any special ability that relies on Constitution (such as when calculating a breath weapon's DC).

I suppose you can argue that this doesn't apply to feats but I see no reason to not allow it.

[Jeraa]

As a DM I'd allow Diehard to key off Charisma, considering undeads have this little thing:
I suppose you can argue that this doesn't apply to feats but I see no reason to not allow it.

It doesn't matter what score it uses. The point is, undead are automatically destroyed at 0 hit points, and Diehard only has an effect when you are at negative hitpoints. Undead can't go to negative hit points, so it doesn't matter what score is used.

[stack]

Well, the specific wording of the spirit in question may grant a loophole then.

" you do not die until your negative hit points equal twice your Constitution score."

Combined with undead using CHA instead of CON (this application isn't on the list, but it could be a special ability that relies on CON), you could argue that the specific wording of the spirit trumps the general rules that undead are destroyed at 0. Could run into issues with destroyed vs dieing, since dieing is something rather in the vampire's past.

[BWR]

It doesn't matter what score it uses. The point is, undead are automatically destroyed at 0 hit points, and Diehard only has an effect when you are at negative hitpoints. Undead can't go to negative hit points, so it doesn't matter what score is used.

Which is why I'd allow the feat to let them break the rules a bit at that point.

[Fallenreality]

Well, the specific wording of the spirit in question may grant a loophole then.

" you do not die until your negative hit points equal twice your Constitution score."

Yeah, this is the part I was questioning. It would certainly make life as a vampire PC easier, as you won't instantly die upon being dropped to 0. The rest of the spirit is very flavorful. Possessing beasts, commanding undead, cursing with a touch.

[AnonymousPepper]

This is one of those things that by the rules doesn't work, but it's still worth asking your DM. It's not as though Diehard is a gamebreaking feat anyway. I'd ask, making sure that you admit that it doesn't work by rules and explaining why if he asks, but pointing out that it's still within the spirit of the rules, and if you think it'd help you could pass on our recommendation to allow it.

I legitimately do not see any harm that could come of it, really.

tl;dr: ask your DM and lay all the cards on the table; he should allow it, although if he doesn't he doesn't.

[leonfenrir]

I'm a bit late to the party, but in Lords of the Night, we kept vampires as undead (so, no con score).
diehard is essentially just extra hit points for them, as they don't bleed/stagger below 0 (they normally just get destroyed).

In my game I'd rule that they can take diehard, but are staggered if below 0.

[CGNefarious]

As awesome as it would to not be destroyed at zero as a vampire, there is still the whole issue of having to waste a feat slot on endurance. It is quite literally absolutely useless for undead.

[Psyren]

A similar issue comes up with summon good monster (PF feat), since summons poof at 0.

This also came up with the Half-Orc's Ferocious Summons, which got FAQ'd: (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1gh#v5748eaic9qli)

"Half-Orc, Ferocious Summons: How does this ability work if a summoned creature disappears when it reaches 0 hp?
The summoned creature does not disappear at 0 hp, instead it disappears when killed (when its current hp get to a negative amount equal to its Constitution score)."

I'm guessing that this would apply to Summon Good Monster too. No dice for vampires though.