Rogue/Assassin build help

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

Hi everyone. i'm starting a new campaign. we are starting at level 3 with a level three budget and we might be gestalt characters. i'm planning to become a assassin and naturally chose rogue as my base class. what would you guys suggest that i gestalt with, and is there any other prestige classes that would mess well with the assassin ability's, also any feats suggestions would be nice and my DM might replace the evil alignment with chaotic neutral, so i'm not restrain from any feats.

[Honest Tiefling]

Before we go any further, what are you attempting to do with the character, and what else is in your party?

[Vhaidara]

Also, Pathfinder or 3.5?

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

sorry about that, i forgot . it's a 3.5 campaign and we are allowed all 3.0-3.5 books and dragon magazine material as long we show the DM it first. The character concept that trying to build is an assassin that can get as close to the target as possible and deal his death attack, i know this is a very basic concept for a assassin but i don't know any other concept that i could. as of now i have no idea what the other players are playing, all i know is that we might be a band of mercenaries going from town to town.

[Vhaidara]

Swordsage (Tome of Battle) is probably a better starting point than rogue then. The Shadow Hand discipline is basically built for assassins, including a feat you can take to get Dexterity to damage. If you do get gestalt, I would recommend Swordsage//Rogue/Assassin. You'll get a lot of Sneak Attack, and Swordsage gives you the ability to force your opponent to be flat footed.

[Optimator]

Death Attack is terribad. Uncanny Dodge, Hide In Plain Sight, and Spells are the heat. Ignore Death Attack and focus your build as if it were just a Rogue. Melee? Go for your standard TWF blender. Craven, Shadow Blade, a two-level dip in Swordsage works wonders. A three-level Factotum dip can be good for melee precision-damage builds, and you'll have at least some Int being an Assassin.

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

a swordsage would be good but there any other classes that would be interesting. why is death attack bad. and if it's bad how can i make it better.

[ace rooster]

Wizard. Snipers shot, insightful feint, invisibility, the list of spells that fit goes on. Even acid splash is decent once you add sneak attack, though with snipers shot acid arrow can deal sneak attack at 500+ feet. If you are using your death attack (which actually sucks a bit, not the reason for the class) then you will want a good int anyway. Additionally using shocking grasp to deal your death attack will make it a touch attack, and if you do it from invisible it is flat footed too. Chill touch gives you a supply of touch attacks for sneak attacking with too.

Edit: Death attack takes too long to set up, and the fort save only overtakes the save DC of a wizard spell at level 12 even if you really focus and the wizard does not.

[Vhaidara]

a swordsage would be good but there any other classes that would be interesting. why is death attack bad. and if it's bad how can i make it better.

Using Ninja instead of Rogue can be very fitting. Swordsage is basically a more combat focused Rogue, which is why I recommend i getting a full 20 levels.

As far as Death Attack: It takes too long to charge up. You could spend three rounds getting ready to kill one enemy (and hope they don't make their save), or you could kill an enemy each round for three rounds (no save because damage)

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

why ninja over rogue? rogue sneak attack is better then the ninja sudden strike. i know that it takes three rounds to use death attack but we are going to be hired mercenaries and my character is going to be the stealthy assassin that can sneak in and either kill or paralyses with one strike instead hoping on the damage to kill them. i like the concept of death attack and wounder if there is any way to make death attack better such as increasing the DC or reducing the time it takes to perform it. are there any templates that would be useful.

[Vhaidara]

why ninja over rogue? rogue sneak attack is better then the ninja sudden strike.

Ninja also gets the ability to turn invisible, which is useful for mobility. Further, with Swordsage, you have Wisdom synergy and you have multiple ways of making the enemy flat-footed. Also, Ninja has stronger assassin flavor than Rogue.


i know that it takes three rounds to use death attack but we are going to be hired mercenaries and my character is going to be the stealthy assassin that can sneak in and either kill or paralyses with one strike instead hoping on the damage to kill them. i like the concept of death attack and wounder if there is any way to make death attack better such as increasing the DC or reducing the time it takes to perform it. are there any templates that would be useful.

It works for an initiation, but you will get off one death attack (at best) and then the ability is dead, since you would need to spend 3 rounds not fighting to use it again.

There are the Bracers of Murder, page 98 of Drow of the Underdark, which increase the save DC of Death Attack by 2

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

okay, i now know what you mean, ninja would go well with swordsage, i'm just concern that when i go into the assassin class there going to be MAD because i will need DEX for stealth base skills, WIS for AC and abilities, CHA for certain useful skills such as bluff and disguise, and INT for death attack DC. STR and CON i'm not worried about since i can take certain feats to replace them.

[Vhaidara]

Honestly, you're just adding Wis to the list. And that isn't even overly important because you can focus more on miss chance. Also, you are getting x2 Wis to AC, since you have Ninja and Swordsage.

Cha isn't as important as ranks in the skills are.

An alternative to Ninja is Factotum. Makes you very Int focused, and you can spam up standard actions or sneak attack dice

[Turion]

I'm kinda surprised nobody's mentioned Pluto's Assassin's Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=8273.0) yet. It's generally got some pretty decent advice.

Don't forget to check out the assassin spells in the Spell Compendium. The spell list is actually one of the better parts of the prc, so don't neglect it :smallwink:

[Seharvepernfan]

As far as Death Attack: It takes too long to charge up. You could spend three rounds getting ready to kill one enemy (and hope they don't make their save), or you could kill an enemy each round for three rounds (no save because damage)

It's for surprise rounds, not combat. It's not a bad ability, it's just not super-awesome-pwnzorx or whatever.

Since you're gestalting, it would be kinda wasteful to have two very similar classes on both sides. Swordsage is the best of it's type of class (sneaky stabby), so go with that. You'll want maxed dex and good wis, but don't neglect Str/Con/Int (try to get at least 12's in those).

You might consider duskblade for your other half, as it will give you good base attack bonus, good fort saves, and lot's of damage on single attacks. You'll also get some casting. Problem is you'll need a bit higher int to get the better spells.

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

you can't stack wisdom for AC, they both come from the same ability so they don't stack.

[WesleyVos]

Last time I ran an assassin character, it was a combination rogue/swordsage. I ignored the assassin PrC because the swordsage douse pretty much everything the assassin does, but better. And two or four levels of rogue adding some sneak attack in doesn't hurt.

If you're gestalting, swordsage on one side with rogue and maybe warblade on the other. Nasty combo, that.

[The Grue]

you can't stack wisdom for AC, they both come from the same ability so they don't stack.

Not true; the AC bonuses are untyped. Untyped bonuses stack.

The Ninja's AC bonus explicitly doesn't stack with the Monk's...but a Swordsage is a Swordsage and not a Monk, so it should still stack. Since specific trumps general, if Wis to AC from different classes doesn't stack by default then the Ninja's entry wouldn't need the specific exemption.

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

i still can't stack WIS AC due to the the fact that ninjas get their WIS AC when unarmored while swordsages get their WIS AC when wearing light armor. and i'm not alloyed the unarmed swordsage.

[Lloyd-Starbuck]

sorry, my brother just told me about the tome of battle errata that says that swordsages get their WIS AC when wearing light or no armor. but the errata also say that this bonus does not stack with other abilities named AC Bonus unless those abilities apply to a different ability score.

[Callin]

2 levels of Invisible Fist Monk wouldnt hurt along with Carmendine Monk. If you have a decent Int.

[Jigawatts]

Its a shame you aren't playing Pathfinder, because a Stalker (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/stalker)//Soulknife (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/psionics-unleashed/classes/soulknife) would probably be one of the coolest and most thematic assassin type characters out there.

"Of coarse you can search me, as I said the first time, I'm unarmed" he said as he walked into the ritzy nobles masquerade ball.

Full BAB, good Ref and Will, and literally tons of tricks up your sleeve. Focus on Veiled Moon, Thrashing Dragon, and Steel Serpent.

Unfortunately the 3.5 Soulknife sucks donkey balls.