spellcasting question

[Spacehamster]

Hey playground.

Just checking if I remember right on this one, away from books atm.
You can only cast one spell on your turn even if you have a bonus action spell
and a 1 action spell right? Were wondering cause of the metamagic skill that
makes a 1 action spell into a bonus action and if it lets you cast 2 spells per turn
or it just lets you cast a 1 action spell as a bonus action and use your action for
something else that turn?

[Shadow]

If you cast a spell as a bonus action, the only other spell that may be cast on that same turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one Action.
The single exception to this rule that currently exists is the use of Action Surge, which allows another Action, and that Action can be anything that can normally be done as an Action.
So theoretically, a fighter2/any-spellcaster can cast a spell as a bonus action, then cast a cantrip as your Action, then use Action Surge to cast another spell.

[Spacehamster]

If you cast a spell as a bonus action, the only other spell that may be cast on that same turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one Action.
The single exception to this rule that currently exists is the use of Action Surge, which allows another Action, and that Action can be anything that can normally be done as an Action.
So theoretically, a fighter2/any-spellcaster can cast a spell as a bonus action, then cast a cantrip as your Action, then use Action Surge to cast another spell.

Thanks did not know the cantrip part. :)

[Shadow]

Thanks did not know the cantrip part. :)

PHB page 202

[Feldarove]

Shadow, can you give me a ref for the cantrip bit. I believe you, just wanna see it with my own two eyes!

[Shadow]

Shadow, can you give me a ref for the cantrip bit. I believe you, just wanna see it with my own two eyes!

Already did. That's what this was:

PHB page 202

[Feldarove]

Thanks. Yeah, I have a tendency to click open a bunch of threads and then go through reading them, and often this leads to late replies by me.

[MeeposFire]

If you cast a spell as a bonus action, the only other spell that may be cast on that same turn is a cantrip with a casting time of one Action.
The single exception to this rule that currently exists is the use of Action Surge, which allows another Action, and that Action can be anything that can normally be done as an Action.
So theoretically, a fighter2/any-spellcaster can cast a spell as a bonus action, then cast a cantrip as your Action, then use Action Surge to cast another spell.

Actually I don't think you can. On that page it says "You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action". Since action surge says it is used on your turn and does not constitute a different turn then it is still beholden to this rule and so even with an action surge you would have to use a cantrip after using a bonus action spell though oddly if you did not cast a bonus action spell you could cast any two spells you wanted that turn with action surge.

Of course this ignores the issue with the rules about how it seems to assume you cast the bonus action spell first rather than after the normal action spell. I can see how it would assume that if you cast a non-cantrip that then you cannot cast a bonus action spell at all but it really should have spelled that out for sure to limit questions.

[RedMage125]

Yeah, I gotta go with MeeposFire on this one.

Even with Action Surge, you are still limited to one spell/round.

[Shadow]

Nope.
The extra action granted by Action Surge can be anything that you could normally do with an action. It breaks the normal rules. Specific vs General.
Check sageadvice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/23/action-surge-spell-2/) if you don't believe me.

[MeeposFire]

Nope.
The extra action granted by Action Surge can be anything that you could normally do with an action. It breaks the normal rules. Specific vs General.
Check sageadvice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/23/action-surge-spell-2/) if you don't believe me.

Yes it can do anything an action do but even an action cannot break the rule of cantrips only after casting a bonus action spell.

Note I already said you can cast two non-cantrips in a round using action surge...you just can't do it after a bonus action spell.


Also note that the sage advice you posted has nothing to do with the question at hand. We are not questioning whether you can normally use it to cast any spell but whether you can in the specific situation after a bonus action spell.

Remember actions are not not normally restricted just like with action surge this is a specific exception called out on page 202.

[Shadow]

Specific vs General.
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
Anything. Because Action Surge breaks the normal action economy. That is Action Surge's entire purpose. That's the reason that Action Surge exists. To break the normal action economy once per short rest.
It doesn't matter what else happens during the round. You take the regular actions that you could normally take that round. Then you Action Surge and you get one more action, with no stipulations other than it has to be something that can normally be done in one action.

What you're basically saying is that Action Surge is allowed to break the normal action economy of one spell per turn.... but only if you haven't cast a bonus spell that turn.
You're letting Action Surge break action economy in some circumstances, but not in others.
But Action Surge has no stipulations on it other than the fact that it only grants a single action. You're adding rules where rules don't exist.

"Action Surge - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and possible bonus action."
You regular action: Cast a cantrip
Your possible bonus action: Cast a bonus action spell
Your Action Surge: One additional action beyond the two above

So once again:
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
General rule: One spell per turn. This is the general rule for the normal limit.
Specific rule: Two spells if one is a bonus action cast and the other is a cantrip. This changes your normal limits under one specific circumstance.
Even more specific rule: Action surge gives an additional action, with zero stipulations, once per short rest. This lets you go beyond your normal limits, and even uses that exact wording in its description.

[MeeposFire]

Specific vs General.
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
Anything. Because Action Surge breaks the normal action economy. That is Action Surge's entire purpose. That's the reason that Action Surge exists. To break the normal action economy once per short rest.
It doesn't matter what else happens during the round. You take the regular actions that you could normally take that round. Then you Action Surge and you get one more action, with no stipulations other than it has to be something that can normally be done in one action.

What you're basically saying is that Action Surge is allowed to break the normal action economy of one spell per turn.... but only if you haven't cast a bonus spell that turn.
You're letting Action Surge break action economy in some circumstances, but not in others.
But Action Surge has no stipulations on it other than the fact that it only grants a single action. You're adding rules where rules don't exist.

"Action Surge - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and possible bonus action."
You regular action: Cast a cantrip
Your possible bonus action: Cast a bonus action spell
Your Action Surge: One additional action beyond the two above

So once again:
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
General rule: One spell per turn. This is the general rule for the normal limit.
Specific rule: Two spells if one is a bonus action cast and the other is a cantrip. This changes your normal limits under one specific circumstance.
Even more specific rule: Action surge gives an additional action, with zero stipulations, once per short rest. This lets you go beyond your normal limits, and even uses that exact wording in its description.

If action surge granted you an additional turn it could work but it does not. The action surge action is no more limited nor is it less limited than any other action. It is exactly the same which means it follows all the rules for actions which includes the bonus action spell rules. So yes like every other action in the game it is held to the same standards as all other actions.

[Eslin]

Just cast the normal action spell before the bonus action and you're fine.

[yutikohyla]

Sorry, but Action Surge does not negate any limitations on actions that can be taken.
Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/action-surge/)

[Louro]

Despite of what Mearls said I'd go for the general VS specific rule, allowing the action surge to be a spell.

[pwykersotz]

How is Crawford's tweet not relevant? The full question was asking "Can Action surge be used to cast another spell during the same turn one has already been cast"

His answer of "Yes" seems pretty unambiguous. That said, I'm not sure I'm a fan of that particular ruling.



Just cast the normal action spell before the bonus action and you're fine.

That's...a very special interpretation of that rule. I applaud your ingenuity.

[Shadow]

Sorry, but Action Surge does not negate any limitations on actions that can be taken.
Sage Advice (http://www.sageadvice.eu/2014/09/16/action-surge/)

Can you find the actual question for that "answer?"
Follow that link and read the rest from the actual Twitter page.
There is no question. There is only an answer that doesn't make any sense because action surge doesn't grant a bonus action.

"Action Surge doesn't place any limits on what you do with the bonus actions, but it doesn't negate any limits imposed by other things."

What he's saying is irrelevant, because the question at hand has nothing to do with bonus actions. Those limitations haven't changed. We're talking about an action, not a bonus action.

[Dalebert]

Just cast the normal action spell before the bonus action and you're fine.

I don't see how this gets around it. The order you do the actions in does not seem to have any effect on the restriction. So is it then safe to presume that if you started with a 1 action spell, you cannot then cast a bonus action spell?

Action surge is an extra action specifically on the same turn so it still appears to fall within the restriction, i.e. no spells other than a cantrip on the same turn. So it seems you could cast two 1 action spells but not a bonus spell and a 1 action spell (other than a cantrip)... which is just odd.

[Shadow]

Action surge is an extra action specifically on the same turn so it still appears to fall within the restriction, i.e. no spells other than a cantrip on the same turn even though you have an extra action.

Nope. Yet again, nope.
Action surge has no restrictions. That's why it specifically states that you push yourself beyond your normal limits. Because it has no restrictions. Your normal actions during your turn have restrictions. An action from Action Surge does not.
That is the entire purpose of Action Surge.

Answer me one question:
Are you saying that you can or that you can not cast a spell of 1st level or higher and then use Action Surge to cast another spell?

[Ashrym]

The rule is a PC cannot cast another spell in the same turn as a spell cast with a bonus action unless the spell is a cantrip with a casting time of one action. Action surge grants an additional action but not an additional turn. I would allow a bonus action spell, a cantrip, and another cantrip but not 2 spells and a cantrip.

[TheOOB]

Specific vs General.
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
Anything. Because Action Surge breaks the normal action economy. That is Action Surge's entire purpose. That's the reason that Action Surge exists. To break the normal action economy once per short rest.
It doesn't matter what else happens during the round. You take the regular actions that you could normally take that round. Then you Action Surge and you get one more action, with no stipulations other than it has to be something that can normally be done in one action.

What you're basically saying is that Action Surge is allowed to break the normal action economy of one spell per turn.... but only if you haven't cast a bonus spell that turn.
You're letting Action Surge break action economy in some circumstances, but not in others.
But Action Surge has no stipulations on it other than the fact that it only grants a single action. You're adding rules where rules don't exist.

"Action Surge - Starting at 2nd level, you can push yourself beyond your normal limits for a moment. On your turn, you can take one additional action on top of your regular action and possible bonus action."
You regular action: Cast a cantrip
Your possible bonus action: Cast a bonus action spell
Your Action Surge: One additional action beyond the two above

So once again:
"Yes, Action Surge can be used to do anything an action can normally do."
General rule: One spell per turn. This is the general rule for the normal limit.
Specific rule: Two spells if one is a bonus action cast and the other is a cantrip. This changes your normal limits under one specific circumstance.
Even more specific rule: Action surge gives an additional action, with zero stipulations, once per short rest. This lets you go beyond your normal limits, and even uses that exact wording in its description.

It's not really a case of specific beats general though, the rules don't conflict. Action surge gives you an action, and you could decide to cast a spell with said action regardless of what you did with your previous action. However, the rules for bonus actions forbid you from casting spells other than cantrips w/a casting time of one action if you cast a spell as a bonus action.

Both actions you take follow the exact same criteria, and for both actions they'll check if you cast a spell a bonus action. You can do anything you normally can do with an action, which does not include casting a spell the same turn you cast a spell as a bonus action.

The sage advice you mentioned even supports this. It doesn't limit your bonus actions in any particular way, but the action surge itself can be affected by limits.

[Shadow]

Well, there have been tweets stating that the action "can be anything you can normally do with an action," and there have been tweets stating " I don't see any restrictions on what you can do with the extra action."

So I'm going to hopefully put this one to rest (https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/551913084353536001) for good.
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls @wotc_rodney
Bonus action spell + cantrip action + spell as Action Surge = allowed or disallowed via PHBp202

[MeeposFire]

How is Crawford's tweet not relevant? The full question was asking "Can Action surge be used to cast another spell during the same turn one has already been cast"

His answer of "Yes" seems pretty unambiguous. That said, I'm not sure I'm a fan of that particular ruling.




That's...a very special interpretation of that rule. I applaud your ingenuity.

His answer is correct in the general sense that you can cast two spells using action surge. The only problem occurs when you cast a bonus action spell which has additional rules.

So for example

wizard has action surge uses it to cast magic missile and then uses his normal action to cast it again. This is legal.

Same wizard decides to cast a bonus action spell cannot cast magic missile with either action due to the rule on page 202 that states you can only cast cantrips of the action variety after casting a bonus action spell on that turn.

As for casting a spell and using action surge before casting the bonus action spell that was the thing I was referencing in my initial post and was trying to avoid since it would further confuse the issue and allowing that to work essentially means you might as well not have the rue at all.

[Dalebert]

Answer me one question:
Are you saying that you can or that you can not cast a spell of 1st level or higher and then use Action Surge to cast another spell?

Yes. It's as Meepsfire already said. You can cast two Magic Missiles, for instance. You could cast Feather Fall and two Fire Bolts (one regular action, one during action surge). You could not cast Feather Fall AND Magic Missile in the same turn with either your regular action or your action surge action. It's kind of weird that you can cast two regular action spells but not a bonus and a regular, but that's how it reads.


Well, there have been tweets stating that the action "can be anything you can normally do with an action," and there have been tweets stating " I don't see any restrictions on what you can do with the extra action."

Right. It can be anything you "can normally do" with an action. You can't normally cast a spell other than a cantrip with an action if you cast a bonus action spell the same turn. I don't know the context of the second quote, but unless it was specifically in response to pg 202, then I assume he means it's just as good as your regular action. It has no restrictions beyond what your regular action has. It's not superior or inferior. And it specifically states it to happen on the same turn so it still falls under the same restriction that your original action does with regard to a bonus action spell and a regular action spell during the same turn, regardless of whether you have 5 actions in the same turn.

[Shadow]

I'll repeat this once more and then I'll not argue it further.
General vs Specific.
Specific trumps general.
General rules in the Index are listed in lower case.
Specific rules are listed capitalized.
casting a spell, and every single one of its derivations and subheadings are listed in lower case. It's a general rule.
bonus action spells are also listed in lower case. It's a special circumstance on a general rule, but it's still a general rule.

Action Surge is capitalized. It's a specific rule.
Once again, specific trumps general. As there are no restrictions listed, and we have designer tweets stating that there are no restrictions, and we have designer tweets stating that it can do anything that an action can normally do, casting a spell is allowable, regardless of the previous actions taken that round.
That is the entire purpose of Action Surge, one extra action, above and beyond what you can normally do, which can be anything that an action can normally be.

[Symphony]

Yes. It's as Meepsfire already said. You can cast two Magic Missiles, for instance. You could cast Feather Fall and two Fire Bolts (one regular action, one during action surge). You could not cast Feather Fall AND Magic Missile in the same turn with either your regular action or your action surge action. It's kind of weird that you can cast two regular action spells but not a bonus and a regular, but that's how it reads.

Slight correction: Feather Fall is a reaction spell, which has no restrictions (other than what triggers it).

Bonus action spells include Healing Word, Hex, and Expeditious Retreat.

[Dalebert]

Slight correction: Feather Fall is a reaction spell, which has no restrictions (other than what triggers it).

Oh, derp. My bad. I was trying to think of something to go with Magic Missile. Shillelagh is the spell that comes to mind but that's druid. I probably should have used Healing Word with Faerie Fire as an example of what you can't do, Faerie Fire (reg action) and Cure Wounds (action surge action) as something you could do. Also Healing Word plus Produce Flame (reg action) and another Produce Flame (action surge) as something you can do.

EDIT: Actually a strict reading of the Bonus Spell section could be taken to mean you can only cast one cantrip that turn, assuming you cast a bonus action spell.

[MeeposFire]

I'll repeat this once more and then I'll not argue it further.
General vs Specific.
Specific trumps general.
General rules in the Index are listed in lower case.
Specific rules are listed capitalized.
casting a spell, and every single one of its derivations and subheadings are listed in lower case. It's a general rule.
bonus action spells are also listed in lower case. It's a special circumstance on a general rule, but it's still a general rule.

Action Surge is capitalized. It's a specific rule.
Once again, specific trumps general. As there are no restrictions listed, and we have designer tweets stating that there are no restrictions, and we have designer tweets stating that it can do anything that an action can normally do, casting a spell is allowable, regardless of the previous actions taken that round.
That is the entire purpose of Action Surge, one extra action, above and beyond what you can normally do, which can be anything that an action can normally be.

You keep saying that but your biggest piece of evidence is an out of context tweet. You also keep talking about specific vs general which does not really apply because it does not specifically address the actual problem so it is not specific to this particular situation. To me in order for you to be right you would need to have the ability specifically saying that it breaks the rules on actions whereas the ability merely says you gain an action to use.

In particular it says it gives you an action to use. Nobody is arguing that and we are arguing that it is an action like any other.

You are in fact arguing that action surge is more than an action. You are actually arguing that the action surge action is different and can do things that an action cannot do and your only rational is that since it did not specifically say "this action follows all the rules given for actions" you assume that it can in fact break the rules for how actions work. To me that is an extremely weak argument because more often you do not need to have the normal rules specifically mentioned to still be in effect rather than telling you when they are no longer in effect ie most of the time they list out the exceptions rather than remind on how the rules generally work.

[Feldarove]

I am actually split down the middle with this. I am curious to the specific response.

I think i would allow action surge to cast a spell, regardless of what else happens on your turn. I think the ruling on phb p.202 wasn't intended to cover abilities that might grant additional actions, like action surge. I think the limitation of action surge once per rest doesn't break the economy of casting a bonus spell, cantrip, and action surge-spell

[MeeposFire]

I would like to mention that I am not against allowing you to use action surge to cast an action spell (non-cantrip) in my game just that this is what the rules actually say. Two different things.

[mrumsey]

So does this mean that the Quicken Spell sorcerer feature essentially boils down to:
Spend X Sorcery Points to cast an extra Cantrip?

[Symphony]

So does this mean that the Quicken Spell sorcerer feature essentially boils down to:
Spend X Sorcery Points to cast an extra Cantrip?

There are many things you can do with your action besides cast a spell, including maintaining another spell, using an item, dashing, dodging, disengaging, etc.

[CrusaderJoe]

Side note.

There was a tweet... Sometime last month? Where Mike Mearles said he wasn't the go to guy for rules answers and actually it's the Sage.

So any ruling that Mike had made that goes against Sage is over rulled.