Optimized Meat-Shield?

[atemu1234]

I have a player who has requested a melee character with high HP, high AC, and can charge into combat. Any build suggestions? Apart from the above, he's having me design it, and he's in a large (6+) member group, with usually two casters.

[JDL]

Rule system? (3.5e, PF, d20?)
Level?
Approved/forbidden sourcebooks?
Character wealth?

A little more detail would help immensely.

[atemu1234]

Rule system? (3.5e, PF, d20?)
Level?
Approved/forbidden sourcebooks?
Character wealth?

A little more detail would help immensely.

3.5, 16th level, all 3.5 and Pathfinder material allowed.

[NecessaryWeevil]

How optimized do you want it?

[atemu1234]

How optimized do you want it?

Powerful enough to keep up with the party Sorcadin, so pretty much everything you've got, but hopefully nothing too cheesy.

[sparky9042]

Crusader comes to mind. Go with a reach weapon, Thicket of Blades, and Improved Trip.

[Snowbluff]

Powerful enough to keep up with the party Sorcadin, so pretty much everything you've got, but hopefully nothing too cheesy.
That's a mighty tall order.

Crusader comes to mind. Go with a reach weapon, Thicket of Blades, and Improved Trip.

This is good advice. Adding some Ruby Knight Vindicator so you have some buffs and Righteous Might to improve your size/reach would be really good. I suggest a spike chain.

For AC, the (greater) Luminous Armor spell (Book of Exalted Deeds) is usually a good start.

EDIT: A Q pony feels redundant if we already have Discord. :smalltongue:

[AnonymousPepper]

I'm going to point out that the only way I'm aware of to force somebody to attack you is Knight levels for Knight's Challenge.

[Coidzor]

I'm going to point out that the only way I'm aware of to force somebody to attack you is Knight levels for Knight's Challenge.

The Pathfinder feat Antagonize, especially before the errata made the wording really open and basically useless for the Intimidate option, and the 3.5 feat Goad if they threaten you in melee and don't have any spells or ranged weapons.

[Faily]

Crusader got access to Stances that penalize the opponent for not attacking you. With a reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, and Stand Still, not many will get past you either to have the chance to attack others. Lunge feat can also help with increasing your range for a short while too if nescessary.

[Extra Anchovies]

Reach-based Knight or Reach-based Crusader, yes. Take the Half-Ogre template (+1 LA) for better size shenanigans. It leaves you a humanoid, which means Enlarge Person makes you Huge. Get the spell permanencied.

[Red Fel]

Well, let's start with first principles: "Optimized Meat-Shield" is an oxymoron. Being a meat shield isn't effective. Relying on HP won't help you with save-or-suck effects; relying on AC won't help you against saves or touch AC spells; trying to face-tank doesn't work when enemies can simply navigate around you.

The best, the very best, way to tank is to one-shot murder anything that comes near your friends with menacing intent. A dead enemy is no threat. (Unless it's undead. But that's different.) Since I assume straight-up insta-gibbing cheese is off the table, I'm going to second (third? fourth?) Crusader, with some modifications.

First, take two levels of Barbarian. You're going to take three options here. Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion): This replaces Fast Movement with Pounce. There's no better way to lock down the battlefield than by charging into it and straight-up dropping an opponent. Using Pounce, your meatshield can charge into a group of enemies to prepare them for his zone of "if you move I will straight-up murder you", and kill one of them in the process. Whirling Frenzy (Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/classFeatureVariants.htm#rageVariantWhirlingFrenzy )): Replace "hit harder" with "hit more." Replace a Con bonus, Will save bonus and AC penalty with a dodge AC bonus and a Reflex save bonus. This is a very good thing. Wolf Totem (Unearthed Arcana (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures )): At Barbarian 2, you get Improved Trip, even if you don't qualify. This will become valuable. As an alternative to Wolf Totem, there is a Half-Orc racial substitution level at Barbarian 2, that replaces Uncanny Dodge with Reckless Charge. Reckless Charge gives you a +4 to attack rolls but a -4 to AC while charging. This makes your charges more lethal, and makes you a more desirable target than your allies.You say he wants to charge into battle and protect his allies? Spirit Lion Barbarian makes charging into battle fun.

Then switch over to full Crusader, and ride that elevator to the top. Yes, you could take RKV, but Crusader will do everything you need. At this point, I start asking whether 3.0 is also on the table, because the Knock-Down feat, when combined with Thicket of Blades stance, can make you an impassable barrier. Enemy tries to leave, AoO, trip attempt. If 3.0 isn't on the table, mix your standard Crusader array with feats like Karmic Strike and Robilar's Gambit to ensure that enemies will have to hit you, and will be penalized whether they do or they don't. Stand Still is also a useful feat for freezing an enemy in place.

If PF is on the table, however, I'd suggest skipping the Barb/Crusader mix and high-tailing it into Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder). (Have a handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Nuni1TCzVXyhx4rFWjNcEjuDS6goL9hLQDE4il_tzH8/edit?pli=1).) Basically, it lets you share defensive bonuses with your allies and create an entire threatened area where enemies become useless and, in short order, dead. It does what you need, and has an ample supply of maneuvers for a custom feel.

[RolkFlameraven]

If all Pathfinder is on the table as stated I would more then 2nd Red's idea on the Warder. The different Archetypes and Orders can let you make very different 'Tanks' in short order.

Keep in mind that PoW is a 3PP even if its from DreamScared and might not fall under that 'all Pathfinder' tag.

[atemu1234]

I forgot to mention, I'm DM, so I can approve anything if need be.

[Jigawatts]

I third the suggestion for the Warder from Path of War. It is literally the only class I have seen that performs the "tank" role as it is intended, without having to pull from 18 different sources to make some cheesy character build, it is all just baked into the core class. Also, unlike 3.5, going 1-20 it completely viable, no need for 3 different prestige classes.

I dont know if you ever read the Wheel of Time series, but the whole thing is Lan to a T.

[Fenryr]

I also say Warder is cool. Even if they don't have Thicket of Blades they may get a bigger threaten area (spend full round action and get +5 reach for every 5 level) and at level 10 that threatened area is difficult terrain. Also a discipline focused on shields.

[Callin]

Also suggesting the Warder. Its a great class with really cool Archetypes.

[Elricaltovilla]

Red Fel already linked my Warder guide, but I'll go ahead and throw in my suggestion for Warder as well. Armiger's Mark is great for incentivizing enemies to attack you, Aegis makes your allies harder to hit and dominate and Defensive Focus gives you the AoOs and threatened area you need in order to control an area.

The class also includes a lot of options for customization, and its archetypes are also great alternatives to your standard S&B tank (although going standard loadout can pretty easily make you nearly untouchable). Hawkguard is a ranged tank, Zweihander Sentinel emphasizes your threatened area over passive buffs, Sworn Protector is great for smaller parties, and Dervish Defender gives you a more aggressive character if you prefer to tank by laying down the hurt.

You can also swap out a discipline for the Silver Crane discipline, which gives in-combat healing that can rival the best clerics and a stance that gives you wings (unlike RedBull). Requires you to be good aligned, but since he's playing with a Sorcadin, I assume that's pretty ok.

EDIT: I got Stalkered (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1f468j7r7cQyAoiTfUAJD-2VaeazoYCm8ThC96c_mRYQ/edit?usp=sharing) by a BUNCH of people. :smalltongue:

[RolandDeschain]

Bit of a one-trick-pony, but you could do something like barbarian, ranger(wildshape variant), bear warrior, warshaper, primeval, and end up with stupid-high strength and constitution. Just a thought, the other builds presented here have greater versatility.

[Extra Anchovies]

Bit of a one-trick-pony, but you could do something like barbarian, ranger(wildshape variant), bear warrior, warshaper, primeval, and end up with stupid-high strength and constitution. Just a thought, the other builds presented here have greater versatility.

Hm. Possibly a size-increase build? Start with half-Ogre, then Enlarge Person, then find out if any of the shape-changing abilities can provide direct size increases rather than setting a specific size and use those. Being Gargantuan (or bigger!) is a nice way to lock down a battlefield.

[Red Fel]

Hm. Possibly a size-increase build? Start with half-Ogre, then Enlarge Person, then find out if any of the shape-changing abilities can provide direct size increases rather than setting a specific size and use those. Being Gargantuan (or bigger!) is a nice way to lock down a battlefield.

If you're going with that (and staying in 3.5), consider the Large and in Charge feat from Draconomicon. It requires Large or larger size, and 10+ feet of natural reach, but it gives you a nice perk: When you make an AoO against someone moving in your threatened area, you can make an opposed Str check to force them back where they came from. And if you're dealing with a big threatened area, that's a whole lot of territorial control.

[Snowbluff]

Or be a Goliath and add knockback. By having a little bit of power attack set up, you can throw your enemies around.

[RolandDeschain]

So a Goliath barbarian 1/wild shape ranger/Warshaper/primeval or some such...

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

3.5, 16th level, all 3.5 and Pathfinder material allowed.


Powerful enough to keep up with the party Sorcadin, so pretty much everything you've got, but hopefully nothing too cheesy.

Assuming the Sorcadin uses (Draconic) Polymorph, (Grater) Luminous Armor, Shield, and (Persistent/Wand of) Wraithstrike, he'll probably need to make some kind of spellcaster to keep up, especially at 16th level.

I would recommend a Druid or a Cleric, or possibly another arcane gish. Here's a good start:

Human, any good alignment, no particular deity, Cloistered Cleric 6/ Divine Oracle 4/ Contemplative 6.

Ability score priority: Wisdom > Constitution > all others. Str at least 13 for Power Attack, Cha preferably at least 10 for turn undead uses, Int preferably at least 10 for skill points, Dex is irrelevant.

Domains/ACFs: Divine Magician (CM), Spell, Knowledge, Oracle, War (Falchion), Destiny. Trade the Spell domain's bonus to skill checks for Divine Restoration in Dungeonscape.

Considerations: Gain the feat Skill Focus: Knowledge (Religion) from visiting the Frog God's Fane detailed in Complete Scoundrel for 2,000 gp (the cost of the expedition).

Flaws: Aligned Devotion and Love of Nature (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?258440-The-quot-Best-quot-Flaws#30) (DC 12).

Feats: Extend Spell, Persistent Spell, Divine Metamagic: Persistent, Knowledge Devotion, Extra Turning, Power Attack, Craft Rod, Weapon Proficiency/Focus: Falchion, Holy Warrior, Combat Reflexes.

Skills and skill tricks: At least one rank in every knowledge skill useful for Knowledge Devotion, Collector of Stories skill trick, max ranks in Concentration, Swift Concentration, preferably at least five cross-class ranks each in Balance and Tumble, any skill tricks associated with either of those skills that may be useful, and your prerequisites for feats and prestige classes.

Equipment: Monk's Belt, two Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell*, 6th level Pearl of Power, two Lesser Metamagic Rods of Extend Spell*, a standard Strand of Prayer Beads with the Bead of Smiting removed (only 9,000 gp total per DMG pricing), Masterwork Falchion (+1 Keen Spell Storing if desired, Spellblade: Greater Dispel Magic if necessary) with a Wand Chamber, Armbands of Might, Ring of Freedom of Movement, Ring of Enduring Arcana, Circlet of Rapid Casting with +6 Wisdom added per MIC p234, Reliquary Holy Symbol, many many Night Sticks*. He could have crafted any items marked with an asterisk* himself. I did not calculate any costs whatsoever, but it's most likely grossly under budget. There are tons of other useful items to consider (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), but many of those effects can be gained from spell buffs.

Divine Magician spells: Shield (1st), Karmic Backlash (3rd), Ray Deflection (4th), Greater Anticipate Teleportation (6th), Mind Blank (8th). Pick whatever Abjuration, Divination, or Necromancy spells you want for 2nd, 5th, 7th, and 9th level.

Always activate the Bead of Karma from the Strand of Prayer Beads prior to buffing so all the spells are at a caster level of 20th.

With Anyspell and Greater Anyspell he could have used Permanency to make several spells permanent on himself. He could have used Greater Anyspell to prepare and cast the spell to be made permanent, recovered Greater Anyspell with his 6th level Pearl of Power, and then prepared and cast Permanency to make it permanent.

Buffs with Divine Metamagic, you may not have enough Turn Undead uses for all of these every day: Persistent: Shield, Karmic Backlash, Ray Deflection, Divine Favor, Divine Power, Mass Lesser Vigor, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Wraithstrike (via Anyspell), Draconic Polymorph: War Troll (via Greater Anyspell), Righteous Might, Holy Star x3 (one in each mode, once one's Spell Turning effect is used up switch it to another mode and switch another to Spell Turning).

Buffs cast normally (LRE indicates a Lesser Rod of Extend was used, RE indicates a standard Metamagic Rod of Extend was used): Greater Luminous Armor (RE), Magic Vestment on the Greater Luminous Armor effect (LRE), Magic Vestment on the Shield spell's effect (LRE), Mind Blank, Greater Anticipate Teleportation, Greater Magic Weapon on his Falchion (RE), Heroe's Feast (RE, no Bead of Karma due to cast time).

Special buff sequence: Every day he uses two 6th level spell slots, his 6th level Pearl of Power, and all three uses of one Metamagic Rod of Extend Spell on the following buffs. Every other day he prepares Energy Immunity twice and uses the pearl to cast it three times, using the rod on each so they last 48 hours. On the days in between he prepares and casts Superior Resistance and Energy Immunity each once, and uses the pearl to cast Energy Immunity a second time, again using the rod for each so those last 48 hours. This gives him constant immunity to all five energy types, and a +6 Resistance bonus to his saving throws.


His buffed physical stats will be as follows:
Large size, or Huge size with Righteous Might.
Str 45 or 49 (31 War Troll, +8 Draconic Polymorph, +6 Divine Power, +4 Righteous Might post-errata)
Dex 16 (16 War Troll)
Con 31 or 33 (29 War Troll, +2 Draconic Polymorph, +2 Righteous Might post-errata)
Wis 28 (18 base, +4 levels, +6 Enhancement)

AC: 80 large size, 81 huge size (+13 armor Greater Luminous Armor with Magic Vestment, +9 shield Shield spell with Magic Vestment, +14 natural War Troll or +16 with Righteous Might, +10 monk with Monk's Belt and Wis 28, +6 circumstance with Holy Star, +3 Dex, -1 size Large or -2 size Huge)

Attacks are resolved as touch attacks thanks to Wraithstrike, so he'll Power Attack for -16 every round.
Full Attack: +28/+28/+23/+18/+13 large or +29/+29/+24/+19/+14 huge, each hit deals 2d6+74 large or 3d6+77 huge.
He also gets a free fire bolt attack per Holy Star spell in that mode, each of which deals 10d6 fire damage.