Is tumbling still a thing?

[Dalebert]

What is acrobatics good for in a battlefield? Will it help me get around the way tumbling did in 3.5? Can I potentially move through an enemies space at all? What about without provoking an AoO? If so, with what kind of DCs?

Fighting in cramped spaces seems to be a common dynamic to have to deal with. If not with acrobatics, how else does one try to prepare better for this issue? Am I better off trying to shove my way through enemies to get to a certain space with athletics or just a high STR?

[Sindeloke]

There's an optional rule in the DMG for using acrobatics vs enemy athletics to move through an enemy's space. It doesn't mention AoOs, sadly.

[Yorrin]

Be a Rogue with Cunning Action + Disengage? Acrobatics as such no longer officially has a "tumble" effect like it did in 3.5, though it would not be hard to houserule one (DC 15 to move at half speed with no AOs, DC 20 to do so through someone's space).

[Louro]

As DM I love narrow corridors because...
How are you supposed to wield an axe or great sword in such a tight space? Disadvantage on slashing weapons.

Acrobatics would allow you to jump over an enemy to surround him, impose disadvantage on the AoO, run across a wall (prince of Persia stuff), balance on a chandelier to reach a spot or attack from the air (Errol Flin's Robin Hood stuff), run & slide below a giant to attempt a very critical attack (stunned for 1 round at least), ready your action to dodge the axe attack in the last second and attempt to disarm the enemy, jump from falling rock to falling rock... no, this is way too stupid even for D&D.

[odigity]

What is acrobatics good for in a battlefield? Will it help me get around the way tumbling did in 3.5? Can I potentially move through an enemies space at all? What about without provoking an AoO? If so, with what kind of DCs?

Fighting in cramped spaces seems to be a common dynamic to have to deal with. If not with acrobatics, how else does one try to prepare better for this issue? Am I better off trying to shove my way through enemies to get to a certain space with athletics or just a high STR?

I've been meaning to ask this for a while. Tumbling is one of the first things I looked for when I got the PHB, and was sad to see it gone (and to see how the skill section had almost zero rules about actually using the skills -- just a high-level paragraph description for each). Tumbling was one of my favorite skills in 3.5, both for avoiding AoOs and reducing falling damage.

As Yorrin pointed out, Disengage accomplishes the first, now, which everyone has access to. I've seen nothing for the second (reducing falling damage) other than the obvious class abilities (Slow Fall, Feather Fall spell, etc).


Acrobatics would allow you to jump over an enemy to surround him, impose disadvantage on the AoO, run across a wall (prince of Persia stuff), balance on a chandelier to reach a spot or attack from the air (Errol Flin's Robin Hood stuff), run & slide below a giant to attempt a very critical attack (stunned for 1 round at least), ready your action to dodge the axe attack in the last second and attempt to disarm the enemy, jump from falling rock to falling rock... no, this is way too stupid even for D&D.

Dude, you just rattled off a bunch of your house rules. None of that is RAW. In fact, the very first thing you said (jumping) is actually Athletics by RAW. It's one of the few skills for which they actually defined the rules/math. It controls exactly how far/high you can jump...

[KhorashIronfist]

Am I better off trying to shove my way through enemies to get to a certain space with athletics or just a high STR?

There are already rules for this, see page 195 of the phb.

"...make a special melee attack to shove a creature, either to knock it prone or push it away from you ... make a strength (athletics) check contested by the targets strength (athletics) or dexterity (acrobatics) check, target's choice. If you win the contest, knock the target prone or push it 5 feet away from you."

[pwykersotz]

Dude, you just rattled off a bunch of your house rules. None of that is RAW. In fact, the very first thing you said (jumping) is actually Athletics by RAW. It's one of the few skills for which they actually defined the rules/math. It controls exactly how far/high you can jump...

He's poking fun at the latest Hobbit movie regarding what Legolas does. (At least that's how I read it.)

The jumping from falling rock to falling rock is dumb, but darned if it isn't a cool image. I blame anime for being the first place I saw it.

[Louro]

Odigity, house rules?
Maybe I messed jump with acrobatics but this is RAW now. Player says what he want to do and DM tells him the DC, and I love it this way: no more time wasted throughout the thousands of feats to check if you can do that or not.
Fast and open to imagination, just the way it is meant to be.

[odigity]

He's poking fun at the latest Hobbit movie regarding what Legolas does. (At least that's how I read it.)

The jumping from falling rock to falling rock is dumb, but darned if it isn't a cool image. I blame anime for being the first place I saw it.

That would be hilarious if it was true. I haven't seen the 3rd film because they're just so meh (compared to LotR, of which I am a hard-core fan) -- very cartoony. The action sequence of escaping in barrels was quite clever and fun, but lasted too long and broke suspension of disbelief when the dwarf in the barrel bounced on to land to knock more orcs down. Ugh.

However, I think he was serious:


Odigity, house rules?
Maybe I messed jump with acrobatics but this is RAW now. Player says what he want to do and DM tells him the DC, and I love it this way: no more time wasted throughout the thousands of feats to check if you can do that or not.
Fast and open to imagination, just the way it is meant to be.

It is absolutely true that the skill system in 5e is very loose and undefined on purpose to put the power in DM hands. But that just means that there are far more DM rulings for skill applications now -- each of which is technically now a house-rule. Meaning, just because you let a player use Acrobatics to jump doesn't mean you can post here that that's what Acrobatics is for.

[KhorashIronfist]

ready your action to dodge the axe attack in the last second and attempt to disarm the enemy

If you were indeed serious, this is definitely not a legitimate usage of acrobatics RAW. The battle master fighter has, to my mind, the only disarm ability actually mentioned in the game (in fifth edition, mind you), and that is the enemy strength check opposed to your set maneuver DC, after hitting with your attack roll. To me this sets a certain precedent, for what reason would a battlemaster with acrobatics have to take the disarm maneuver?

[Jeraa]

If you were indeed serious, this is definitely not a legitimate usage of acrobatics RAW. The battle master fighter has, to my mind, the only disarm ability actually mentioned in the game (in fifth edition, mind you), and that is the enemy strength check opposed to your set maneuver DC, after hitting with your attack roll. To me this sets a certain precedent, for what reason would a battlemaster with acrobatics have to take the disarm maneuver?

The Disarm action (for everyone) is described on page 271 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Your attack roll vs the opponents Athletics or Acrobatics check.

Tumbling also appears on the next page.


TUMBLE
A creature can try to tumble through a hostile creature's space, ducking and weaving past the opponent. As an action or a bonus action, the tumbler makes a Dexterity (Acrobatics) check contested by the hostile creature's Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the tumbler wins the contest, it can move through the hostile creature's space once this turn.

[Louro]

Yeah, the legolas reference was a joke but skill checks go that way in our games. BTW, if the jump is difficult because if the fancy maneuver attempt instead of being too large I would rather go for acrobatics instead of athletics.

Yes, battlemaster has a disarm maneuver. Does that mean that the only ones who can attempt to disarm an enemy are the battlemasters? I don't think so, therefore I would allow anyone to attempt it, if the situation seems plausible and at a cost of course. On the example I gave that player is deliberately waiting to dodge an attack which means the enemy attacks with advantage and he needs to succeed both a dex saving and an attack to just disarm the opponent without inflicting normal damage. Risky, fancy and useful.

I really like 5e system as I always hated the hard coded rules of 3ed. Imagination over rules. Adaptation over stuckness.

[Dalebert]

It's just such a common problem to open a door and monsters swarm up to the door before most of the party can even get into the room. It's worth devoting some resources to dealing with it. There are spells like misty step or dimension door, but it's usually not the casters who you want to stick into the few spaces in the middle of the room in order to make room for more party members to enter, right?


There are already rules for this, see page 195 of the phb.

Yes, that's what I was referring to. Thank you though. I should have clarified. But what about the dex-based meleers? What about the rogue who's trying to get in just the right position for sneak attacks? Seems like a glaring oversight to not even mention this as like a suggested DC example in acrobatics.


The jumping from falling rock to falling rock is dumb, but darned if it isn't a cool image. I blame anime for being the first place I saw it.

Legolas basically has superhero level dexterity as firmly established in LotR. :) The physics is actually sound, fwiw.

[odigity]

Legolas basically has superhero level dexterity as firmly established in LotR. :) The physics is actually sound, fwiw.

What? No: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgt9qiGdJ7c

[KhorashIronfist]

The Disarm action (for everyone) is described on page 271 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Your attack roll vs the opponents Athletics or Acrobatics check.

Tumbling also appears on the next page.

I had not actually seen either of these, thank you for pointing that out. But of course, this, as everything in the dmg, is an optional rule. Taking the game at face value - as one is wont to do in any hard discussion of the rules in a game where the DM has ultimate authority - the battlemaster fighter is the only way defined by the basic rules to disarm someone. Technically the players shouldn't really look at the dmg. If the DM chooses to use the optional rules for extra methods of attack, so much the better. Personally, were I the DM in question, I would allow all of the extra attack options - and probably more besides. In my mind the player can ATTEMPT to do anything they like, the question is only that of their chances of success.

[Dalebert]

The Disarm action (for everyone) is described on page 271 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. Your attack roll vs the opponents Athletics or Acrobatics check.

Tumbling also appears on the next page.

I don't know how I missed this post but fortunately it got quoted and I scrolled up and saw it. Thanks. I still haven't devoted some time to really sit down with the books and check things out. I keep learning as I go and looking things up as they become relevant.


What? No: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgt9qiGdJ7c

Yes.

ADD version: You can push off of a big heavy rock that just started falling to get yourself higher. You can't push off of a little flimsy piece of wood. The piece of wood will go flying down and you will hardly get any push off of it in the upward direction at all.

Longer version: That rope bridge is very light and flimsy and still all in one piece. The chunks of rock Legolas was pushing off of were MASSIVE relative to his body weight. Each one was breaking off a moment before he stepped on them so hadn't gained much speed from gravity. Momentum is a measure of kinetic energy that involves both speed and mass. Legolas would be increasing the downward momentum of the rocks by pushing down on them while at the same time increasing his own momentum upward. The increase to the rocks momentum would be equal to the increase in his own momentum, but the SPEED increase to the rocks fall would be just a fraction relative to the increase in his own upward speed because his mass is so much lower than those huge chunks of dense rock.

[Once a Fool]

I don't know how I missed this post but fortunately it got quoted and I scrolled up and saw it. Thanks. I still haven't devoted some time to really sit down with the books and check things out. I keep learning as I go and looking things up as they become relevant.



Yes.

ADD version: You can push off of a big heavy rock that just started falling to get yourself higher. You can't push off of a little flimsy piece of wood. The piece of wood will go flying down and you will hardly get any push off of it in the upward direction at all.

Longer version: That rope bridge is very light and flimsy and still all in one piece. The chunks of rock Legolas was pushing off of were MASSIVE relative to his body weight. Each one was breaking off a moment before he stepped on them so hadn't gained much speed from gravity. Momentum is a measure of kinetic energy that involves both speed and mass. Legolas would be increasing the downward momentum of the rocks by pushing down on them while at the same time increasing his own momentum upward. The increase to the rocks momentum would be equal to the increase in his own momentum, but the SPEED increase to the rocks fall would be just a fraction relative to the increase in his own upward speed because his mass is so much lower than those huge chunks of dense rock.

As much as that scene made me roll my eyes, I do have to note that Legolas is virtually weightless (at least when he wants to be). In LotR he demonstrates the ability to walk on the surface of snow without sinking in. And that's Tolkien's fault, not Peter Jackson's.

[Once a Fool]

As for the issue of moving around an enemy without provoking opportunity attacks, this can be done by anyone without using the disengage action as long as they don't leave the enemy's threatened area.

[Once a Fool]

It's just such a common problem to open a door and monsters swarm up to the door before most of the party can even get into the room.

This strikes me as a particularly bad tactic for monsters to employ, particularly if there are enough of them to swarm.

They aren't just allowing the party doorstop(s) to create a choke point, they're actually doing it for them.

Crowding an entry completely negates their advantage of numbers by keeping them from making all of the attacks that would otherwise be available to them during a round. Further, it makes focusing fire easier for the party (not to mention area of effect effects).

Far better to lure some (if not all) of the party into the room and attack from all sides.

Exceptions, of course, exist. For example, one or two monsters could hold the line while archers pepper the PCs, especially if they can ignore cover.

[PinkysBrain]

But that just means that there are far more DM rulings for skill applications now -- each of which is technically now a house-rule.

Some people might have an old school binder and write in every such decision ... but I think most DMs will just make up the DCs on the fly and change them every time without much rhyme or reason.

[Justin Sane]

As much as that scene made me roll my eyes, I do have to note that Legolas is virtually weightlessNow I kinda want to know if Legolas could double-jump by shooting an arrow downwards.

[Dalebert]

Crowding an entry completely negates their advantage of numbers by keeping them from making all of the attacks that would otherwise be available to them during a round. Further, it makes focusing fire easier for the party (not to mention area of effect effects).

Why are you assuming they have the advantage of numbers? We have a fairly large party and this can go both ways. Even characters with ranged attacks have difficulty targeting through a narrow doorway, particularly if they'd really like to select a different target than the one standing in it. Even when they have numbers, we can often change that if we can get in there and start focusing attacks and we often have ways of reducing risk and harm to ourselves to offset their initial numbers like defensive spells or crowd control, many of which are difficult to use if we've been bottle-necked. On top of that, even if it represents a tactical advantage for us, it's just no fun for the characters who are all but left out while someone tries to do enough dmg on their own to clear a little space.

[Once a Fool]

Why are you assuming they have the advantage of numbers?

Well, you said "swarm," which connotes a largish (generally overwhelming) group. But even in other situations, crowding an entrance point is not generally a great tactic for the reasons I gave above (the boredom it perpetuates is just further reason to avoid the tactic).

Of course, as I said before, it is certainly possible create tactics that run counter to this generality.


We have a fairly large party and this can go both ways. Even characters with ranged attacks have difficulty targeting through a narrow doorway, particularly if they'd really like to select a different target than the one standing in it.

If the ranged enemies can ignore cover, this isn't an issue. Even if they can't, that's only -2 for most of them (if they're positioned well). This is one area where the side that's in a room has an advantage over the side coming in from a corridor.


Even when they have numbers, we can often change that if we can get in there and start focusing attacks and we often have ways of reducing risk and harm to ourselves to offset their initial numbers like defensive spells or crowd control, many of which are difficult to use if we've been bottle-necked.

This I don't get. Most area of effect spells aren't attacks and, so, don't care about cover. If the enemies are all bunched up together, that just makes them more effective.


On top of that, even if it represents a tactical advantage for us, it's just no fun for the characters who are all but left out while someone tries to do enough dmg on their own to clear a little space.

Again, I don't get it. You started out by claiming that a monster tactic you frequently see is boring. I responded that the tactic isn't great, anyway; there are better tactics that will also be more fun for the players.

So, again, if it's boring, don't do it. Luring the PCs into the room will give all of the PCs interesting things to do, and will also, generally, let the monsters all also do interesting things.

[Dalebert]

What do you mean "don't do it"? I don't control the monsters.

[Once a Fool]

If you are not the DM, may I suggest that you suggest to your DM that, not only would allowing your party to actually get into a room for a combat be more fun for the players, it is often a better tactic for the monsters to use (for reasons I have laid out upthread).

And, in addition to reasons previously stated, having monsters crowd a doorway gives away perhaps the most significant advantage that a defending force (no matter the number) has against an attacking force: home field advantage--the ability to choose and make use of terrain, cover, choke points, and paths of flow (not to mention setting traps).

[Person_Man]

I'm glad Tumble is gone. It does not fit into 5E game design.

In 5E, Theater of the Mind (http://geek-related.com/2014/05/27/theater-of-the-mind/) is the default game mechanic, not a physical tabletop map with miniatures. The movement, Opportunity Attack, reach, and targeting rules are all built to support this play style. As it pertains to Opportunity Attacks; "You can make an opportunity attack when a hostile creature that you can see moves out of your reach." Not out of a space that you threaten (which was the rule in 3.X, PF, 4E, and Essentials) because discrete 5 ft spaces that you threaten do not exist in the Theater of the Mind. And nothing else provokes an Opportunity Attack by default (such as standing up from being prone or casting a spell, although a couple of Feats allow for additional circumstances).

Each creature has a "doughnut" of reach around them that you can safely move about, without provoking an Opportunity Attack. An enemy must move away from you to provoke using their own movement, Action, or Reaction. (Shoving them or using Thunderwave or whatever does not provoke, though using Command or other similar enchantments to force them to use their own movement does). Using a Reach weapon does not improve your ability to make Opportunity Attacks.

Opportunity Attacks are generally quite rare, and even if you take all the right Feats and spells to get more, you're still getting just one per round. Therefore, the ability to avoid Opportunity Attacks should also be quite rare, and not universally accessible through a Skill. Otherwise Opportunity Attacks become very easy to avoid, and Acrobatics Proficiency becomes a "mandatory" part of every build in order to do so. And if that's your preference, you might as well just eliminate them entirely.

[Dalebert]

I'm in three games (sort of four) and everyone one of them uses some kind of map with figures or dice to represent creatures and players. So I still don't know of anyone who is using a theater of the mind play style. Even if a DM says it's only good for moving through enemy spaces but not for avoiding AoO, acrobatics already feels mandatory just to fight in cramped spaces based on how I've seen DM design enclosed spaces and run monsters.

Once a Fool, you have good points, but I am reluctant to be a backseat driver to my DMs and say "You're running your monsters wrawng!" :)

[Once a Fool]

I'm in three games (sort of four) and everyone one of them uses some kind of map with figures or dice to represent creatures and players. So I still don't know of anyone who is using a theater of the mind play style. Even if a DM says it's only good for moving through enemy spaces but not for avoiding AoO, acrobatics already feels mandatory just to fight in cramped spaces based on how I've seen DM design enclosed spaces and run monsters.

For what it's worth, I've found that the things I've said are as true with maps and minis as they are with theater of the mind.


Once a Fool, you have good points, but I am reluctant to be a backseat driver to my DMs and say "You're running your monsters wrawng!" :)

Eh. Drop enough AoEs on them and they'll eventually figure it out on their own. In the meantime, if you're bored (and reckless), you can always force the issue yourself by tumbling through enemies' spaces into the room (using the DMG rule, if allowed), teleporting (as with misty step), grappling (and moving them with you), or using shove attacks.