Dealing with mechanically compelx encoutners and adventures in mid- high levels.

[Kol Korran]

Hi there folks! :smallsmile:

So, in the last two sessions my group was in levels 8-9 in pathfinder, facing slightly- al ot above normal encounters (Usually CR 10-13). Combined with a complex environment and battle scenes with a few features or effects, I find myself slightly overwhelmed by the mechanics:
1) There seem to be so many effects in play at once times, that it gets confusing- "So a +2 from that, +1 from that, that one gives you a +4 to X, and +2 to Y, but lets not forget that the enemy's aura gives -2, but only if you got that and that descriptor, and lets not forget the miss chance and..." you get the idea. One player had a +25 to attack, and it took us 5-10 minutes to understand how he got there.
2) The breath of options and little rules. Sometimes a monster has so many things, possible items and so on, that in the midst of the game I keep forgetting stuff. Like a special rune's maddening power, or a ghost corrupting gaze. Things that might have swayed the battle. The players, even though more familiar with their characters, sometime forget too...

Though this mainly affect combat encounters, this in a way also affects the bigger adventure. Less the modifiers problem, but rather the sheer amount of stuff you need to keep track off- NPCs, affects, environment, magical shenanigans, and so on.

I've tried a few things to help me in this:
1) I do thoroughly prepare for a session. I believe in being prepared. I go over the monsters, the effects, key features, even make a short list of every encounter of what to keep track off.
2) In every session I have a small table or page with the main key points to keep track of in the adventure, in bolded big letters. This is in the center of my table, but still...
3) I've tried to simplify stat blocks and such, remove everything unnecessary.
4) I've made a separate table to help distribution of loot and XP.
5) Players help keep track of stuff in encounters- they do the initiative, they keep track of all durations (Including enemy ones), they even roll all of the dice! (Special rule variation) and such small stuff.

But still ,things get missed. It's not THAT bad currently, as they are usually a few, and it generally evens out with players missing stuff, but I don't like to miss on flavor or development points, as that IS a real miss, and I worry that at higher levels, and higher CRs, this problem will just get worse. We're playing a PF adventure path (Which I highly modified) which is supposed to go up till level 20/ mythic tier 10. :smalleek::smallfrown: We've never played beyond level 12, and even that was a bit hard to deal with. But we will play it out, as the players wish so.

So... how do you deal with high complexity encounters and adventures? Any useful tips?

[Zombimode]

There is only so much you (the DM) can do.
For D&D, organisation is king. I always prepare stat blocks for the expected enemies - in a form that I can comprehend quickly AND that contains all necessary information. If I'm unsure on, say, how a certain SLA works, I will write a short description and include it in my stat block. The same for certain feats.

Some players underestimate the organisational effort needed to play some characters efficiently. They NEED to learn that.
You've talked about bonuses. Well, lets be honest, most of the time the configuration of your bonuses doesn't change much. So write them down beforehand.
For this reason I'm not a big fan of actual character sheets. Most do not provide the space needed.
First, the main attack forms should include all boni that are more or less permanent. But be sure to not the nature of the bonus. Don't just write: "Greatsword +15/+10 (2d6+10/17-20)". Instead include something like "Greatsword +15/+10 = 7 bab + 5 Str + 2 Enhancement + 1 Insight (+1 racial vs. orcs); 2d6 base + 7 Str + 2 Enhancement + 1 Insight (+2 vs. arcanists) = 2d6+10"
There, easy.
Then, right down common buff configurations or attack modes. If there is a bard in the party, write down a line for your most commonly used attacks that include his bonus. Maybe include a "full buffs" line for when you have time to prepare.
If a charge attack smite attack with Divine Might up is a common tactic for your character, write a line for that.

A properly organized player with a solid grasp of the rules (that is for instance someone who doesn't have to ask how Power Attack work each time he wants to use it and can remember that Bless provide a +1 morale bonus to attack and saves) should have no problem to know his attack bonus, AC or saves in most situations. Again, organisation is king. No one has to remember everything.

For not remembering certain options, feats, items the characters have at their disposal, well there is not much you can do about. At least, I don't know what to do about it. It has caused the death of characters in my group in the past. Maybe they will learn...

[Glimbur]

You might also make some note cards for monster abilities, similar to the ToB maneuver cards. Having a physical reminder of each thing the monster can do would help me more than having a written list of its options. Your mileage may vary.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I generally make a note card with a short list with a monsters abilities + one line description if they have any special abilities, in addition to their stat block.

As a player i have a seperate sheet for myself that's similar, and one for my inventory. Since i like druids i also have a small A5 binder full of stat cards for the different forms, with stat adjustments for common buffs in easy view. And similar cards for summons.
You have to adjust those when you level up, but that's the price for playing a class with lots of options.

[HJPotter]

snip, but that's the price for playing a class with lots of options.

Ain't that the truth. I currently play an Wiz5/Beguiler 1/Ultimate Magus 9, and you wouldn't believe the insane number of spell combinations I have available (uncanny forethought, versatile spellcaster, and rings of wizardry==options galore).

So I sat down one evening, and wrote up scenarios for spellcasting for the 'standard' four encounters per day. Just generally thinking through some ways to dish out my battery of spells. What to do vs undead, how to deal with a large group of minions, when to cast what high level spell slot... Bizarrely, this caused a deeper game experience for me, as it feels very wizardly to have a plan.

Now as we all know, no plan survives meeting the enemy, but simply being aware of the different options I have available has made me a more better player IMO.


I DM for the same group every other week, in an even more highpowered game--we're nearing epic levels in 4-5 sessions.
My approach: grab a piece of paper, and take notes of what's going on in big threats. What are the big things on the PCs' side? And on Team Evil?

To me, the biggest difference between DMing at lvl 19 and DMing a low-level campaing, is that I need to keep track of more variables than just everyone's AC and HP. At low levels, those are basically the answers that a PC has to most things I throw at them. Action economy alone almost guarantees that, no matter how inept the party may be at first, they'll beat the challenge.

Things get interesting when the invisibility race begins; after that comes grounded vs aerial combat, then SR/other resistances, then my baddies' SLAs/spells vs the PCs' magic items/suck-or-die spells/insane amounts of damage/whatever is new for mid/high level monks.
At some point in this fun, fun mess, tactics and positioning become a more important aspect of the game. On both sides. Enemies making intelligent use of composition and terrain? you can add +1 to the CR, at the very least.

So my advice: remain aware of the answers your PCs have to problems. Be aware of the answers you have to the party. And that's it, really.

[Faily]

You might also make some note cards for monster abilities, similar to the ToB maneuver cards. Having a physical reminder of each thing the monster can do would help me more than having a written list of its options. Your mileage may vary.

I second this. That or slap bright yellow Post-it notes on your side of the GM-screen to really-really remind you.

I personally find that even if I prepare, I still forget things, so big notes or cards help sometimes. As a player in Pathfinder, I've told my GM that I always use Power Attack unless I specifically say I don't, and I have the modified bonus to account for it on my sheet (as well as Smite attacks, since I play Paladin), and it's saved me from earlier blunders of playing characters with that option where I would almost always forget to say it. It's still something I often forget in 3.5. As a GM, I streamline Pathfinder-monsters' statblock into always including Power Attack if they have that option.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I second this. That or slap bright yellow Post-it notes on your side of the GM-screen to really-really remind you.


I third this. I am planning on running a dragon heavy campaign and I have cards with notes all over just because of the sheer number of options a dragon has in combat (and out).

[AlanBruce]

Have you considered bringing a laptop to your games? Mythweavers has a very nice way to organize your NPC sheets, allowing you to copy/paste important information under Notes or even a quick easy reference under the Weapons and Armor section.

I run high level parties and they throw spells around granting at least 7-6 bonuses each, of differing types. I do trust my players enough that, if they are playing buffers and casters, they ought to know what stacks and what doesn't. What is on and what isn't.

If they check their sheets after an encounter and go "But I had haste and bless! Forgot about them... can we redo?" The answer will most likely be no. If a player has chosen to play a caster (and has ran one for a long time), they are expected to know what their spells can do.

Of course, as a DM, it is your responsibility as well to know what your player's PCs have on during an encounter, but when you are running a likewise NPC, similarly buffed, you need to trust that your players know what they are doing. If they mess up with their buffs and forgot about them, too bad.

[Kol Korran]

I've done quite a few of the things you mention: I use a lap-top. I trusted my players to run their characters, so I don't keep track of that, we run by the "If you forgot, it's in the past" way of dealing with things, I tried to keep aware of the main options (But I keep losing some with all the possibilities), and I tried making stat blocks more easy to use.

But... I didn't try the colorful stickers approach. That might be something. I guess I could do color themes in my Lap top, or a small paper with color themes of things to remember in encounters. I will try that out, thanks! :smallsmile:

[Nibbens]

If my monster's stench aura gives my players a -2 to their attack rolls, but only if they failed their save - I say screw it. I add +2 to the ac of my monsters when writing their base stats on my info sheets and then tell my PC's the stench is horrible and affecting their ability to fight back and have all the affects already added in.

At a certain point, I just start adding the bonuses to my monster regardless of what my players roll. Too much information means I have to spend too much time calculating what an AC or attack modifier is for each player - and that means I'm wasting six people's time. My players would much rather have the rules be simplified. Sure, they keep their bonuses and can fiddle around with their +1's and +2 additives. I'm just going to streamline the process as much as possible and just make it an inherent part of the baddie they're fighting.

If they wanna take 20 minutes with their turns, that's fine. But my monsters can and will be done in under 30 seconds. That's the rules I play by.