Is it ok for a player to use efreetis to scribe scrolls of wish?

[gogogome]

Planar binding efreetis for wish is broken, and as DM I will do everything I can to pervert the wish, or make the efreetis use wish to kill the players themselves.

But a player (level 11 wizard) wants to scribe a scroll of wish using the efreeti for cooperative crafting, and pay the 5,000xp himself. Is this balanced? Is this ok?

[Brookshw]

If he's actually paying the cost its not too bad though it is sorta early access. Do you know what he wants it for?

[gogogome]

If he's actually paying the cost its not too bad though it is sorta early access. Do you know what he wants it for?

1. Make a completely filled out spell book (10k) with the spells he wants so he can use spell mastery on them early.
2. Make a scribing kit, supposed to be 25k worth of magical ink for spell book stuff
3. Make a blended quartz or mithral equipment (non magical) or add twilight and nimble for additional XP cost in the initial wish scroll scribing.
4. Increase intelligence
5. Material for golem crafting

The list goes on, but he wants to stay at level 11 for a while to get massive XP per encounter and just craft scrolls of wish until he got everything he wants.

The campaign I'm running is somewhat limited (shops only have common magical items, no high level scrolls until the party reaches a metropolis), and little down time for crafting. I don't know why he wants #2, but he just does.

[AnonymousPepper]

By RAW, he doesn't even have to pay the cost - the efreet (or noble djinn or whatever other outsider you can bind with a Wish SLA) doesn't, so neither does he.

It comes down to what he wants the scroll for, tbh. Planar Binding for something like that is one of those things that you're perfectly within your rights to drop the nerfhammer on regardless of its actual legality; he's sort of at your mercy.

Like, if he wants to PB for Wishes in order to add inherents, that's usually not hyper-game-breaking. If he wants to PB for Wishes in order to have free ones laying around, that ain't gon fly. Just because we're talking about a Wish SLA here. Personally, I'd say no to actual scrolls of Wish - if he wants to create scrolls of various spells (True Res for example) then that's perfectly fine to an extent, but scrolls of Wish are no bueno in most situations, too much gamebreaking potential.

Tl;dr: find out what he WANTS the Wishes for and go from there.

[gogogome]

I disagree on the RAW part. The cooperative spell provider merely provides the spell, it is the crafter who pays the spell's cost upon beginning the scribing process no?

Anyways, free wishes, even for just inherents are absolutely not allowed in my games, but this is early access... so I dunno.

[AnonymousPepper]

1. Make a completely filled out spell book (10k) with the spells he wants so he can use spell mastery on them early.
2. Make a scribing kit, supposed to be 25k worth of magical ink for spell book stuff
3. Make a blended quartz or mithral equipment (non magical) or add twilight and nimble for additional XP cost in the initial wish scroll scribing.
4. Increase intelligence
5. Material for golem crafting

The list goes on, but he wants to stay at level 11 for a while to get massive XP per encounter and just craft scrolls of wish until he got everything he wants.

The campaign I'm running is somewhat limited (shops only have common magical items, no high level scrolls until the party reaches a metropolis), and little down time for crafting. I don't know why he wants #2, but he just does.

1. Okay, I'd say, although it'd be just as easy to allow him to retrain his spell mastery spells when he levels or something like that, and much less potentially gamebreaking?
2. A Blessed Book would be significantly cheaper and save a ton of money in the long run, you know. But okay, sure.
3. I see nothing wrong with this tbh.
4. Inherents? Yeah, he'd want to have five Wishes in a row for that, ideally (or wish for metamagic'd scrolls or something), so that's... yeah. And honestly this is like the least-gamebreaking thing he could have. +5INT is good but I mean it's not amazing - plus 2 or 3 to his save DCs, a couple extra bonus spells, and some more skill points? Not THAT great considering the cost.
5. Not the golems themselves? Huh, okay, but, I wouldn't say this'd be too bad - especially not since you mentioned it's low-downtime. Golems imo are total XP sinks on an individual scale anyway.

It seems to me like part of the problem is that he wants way more downtime for crafting and such than he can get. Some of this stuff seems to fall under the category of "stuff he could normally do if he had the time but he doesn't." Suggesting a fast-flowing time demiplane to him might be a decent idea?

And as far as getting magical gear, it seems like a metropolis would still have most of the stuff he wants, and he's a wizard of sufficient level, so why the heck doesn't he just teleport around for the stuff?

[gogogome]

Crafting magical items with wish doubles their XP cost, so it is not a good idea to craft wondrous items, especially since the initial 5000xp cost is in addition to that double cost.

I know his intentions of using wish like this is not game breaking, but can it lead to some huge abuse? He specifically said he was going to stay at level 11 until he got all the wishes he wanted.

It's also a WBL thing. By paying 5000xp cost, which is decreased since xp is a river, he gets 25k worth of stuff.

[goto124]

If you pay enough XP, do you level down?

[gogogome]

If you pay enough XP, do you level down?

You can't craft an item if its XP cost results in a level loss.

[P.F.]

I disagree on the RAW part. The cooperative spell provider merely provides the spell, it is the crafter who pays the spell's cost upon beginning the scribing process no?

Anyways, free wishes, even for just inherents are absolutely not allowed in my games, but this is early access... so I dunno.

Well they're not exactly free, are they? I mean first you have the four-day srcibing time, and the 2000 gp & 5000 xp cost, followed by the 5% chance of messing up whilst using spellcraft to read the scroll, even if it doesn't result in a mishap. Add to that the possibility of a Planar Binding Gone Horribly Wrong and the rapidly expanding Parliament of Seriously Aggravated Efreet ...

It's an early access workaround for sure, but I think if it blows up in his face a couple of times he might decide against the whole "stay at level 11 for a while" xp system thing.

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't think spell-like abilities count as spells for the purposes of crafting magic items.

For scrolls, how would that even work? A scroll is supposed to be the magical writing of a spell, the arcane thoughts, words, and gestures that a magic user employs to bring forth the magic of the spell. Spell-like abilities don't have those things.

Also, I thought you had to cast the spell, or expend a spell slot on the spell, in each day of an item's creation.

[atemu1234]

I don't think spell-like abilities count as spells for the purposes of crafting magic items.

For scrolls, how would that even work? A scroll is supposed to be the magical writing of a spell, the arcane thoughts, words, and gestures that a magic user employs to bring forth the magic of the spell. Spell-like abilities don't have those things.

I wish for a scroll of wish.

[Mr Adventurer]

I wish for a scroll of wish.

That's not what's in the OP.

[DeltaEmil]

I don't think spell-like abilities count as spells for the purposes of crafting magic items.They do according to Complete Arcane. Supernatural wish ability on the other hand might not.

[RoboEmperor]

I don't think spell-like abilities count as spells for the purposes of crafting magic items.

For scrolls, how would that even work? A scroll is supposed to be the magical writing of a spell, the arcane thoughts, words, and gestures that a magic user employs to bring forth the magic of the spell. Spell-like abilities don't have those things.

Also, I thought you had to cast the spell, or expend a spell slot on the spell, in each day of an item's creation.

You can use divine spells to create arcane scrolls. So you just need the magical power of the spell to imbue it into the scroll.

You don't cast the spell. The spell slot is expended, as in the magical energies go into the item while you're working on it.

As for cost, you only pay the cost once at the start of the creation process. Unless it's a wand or staff, then you pay 50 times the cost.


They do according to Complete Arcane.

Can you provide the exact page number or quote on this? It's always super helpful to have a piece of RAW to shove into other people's faces :D.

[Jack_Simth]

I don't think spell-like abilities count as spells for the purposes of crafting magic items.They explicitly do, actually. Check here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm#prerequisites):
Prerequisites

Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item’s caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s level must be known. The character designated as the creator pays the XP required to make the item.

Typically, a list of prerequisites includes one feat and one or more spells (or some other requirement in addition to the feat).

When two spells at the end of a list are separated by "or," one of those spells is required in addition to every other spell mentioned prior to the last two. (emphasis added)


Edit: As to the OP:
Read the description of Efreeti in the monster manual. Seriously, they HATE that sort of thing. And they're lawful, so they work well(ish) together. They're Evil, so there's a lot of things they'll do towards their goals. And while they can't use their Wishes themselves... Efreeti are native to the same plane as Fire Memphits. A stock Efreeti literally cannot fail an Intimidate check against a stock Fire Memphit (at least, not without situational modifiers or some such). A Fire Memphit is a valid creature to be granted a Wish. You do the math for what happens when you really anger an Efreeti.

[HJPotter]

Planar binding efreetis for wish is broken, and as DM I will do everything I can to pervert the wish, or make the efreetis use wish to kill the players themselves.

That's your choice, and you have your answer right there. You don't want to allow this in your games, so you don't. Personally, I think most mechanics can make sense in context, and would judge each case individually, but you say this isn't okay, so stick with it. (BTW, not a judgement on your stance; it's your game, your rules, have fun, and all that).
Just give the guy downtime in a metropolis for a month, let him sell his spells/spell slots to an arcane guild/the wealthy (plot hooks galore!), so he can save up some cash, and buy the stuff he wants if it's reasonable. He's obviously interested in playing a high powered character, so decide how you want to deal with that, and make it happen XD

[gogogome]

That's your choice, and you have your answer right there. You don't want to allow this in your games, so you don't. Personally, I think most mechanics can make sense in context, and would judge each case individually, but you say this isn't okay, so stick with it. (BTW, not a judgement on your stance; it's your game, your rules, have fun, and all that).
Just give the guy downtime in a metropolis for a month, let him sell his spells/spell slots to an arcane guild/the wealthy (plot hooks galore!), so he can save up some cash, and buy the stuff he wants if it's reasonable. He's obviously interested in playing a high powered character, so decide how you want to deal with that, and make it happen XD

The campaign I'm running is time-sensitive, as in if the bad guy isn't stopped now the whole nation dies.

I'm not ok with free wishes, but I'm open to the idea of early access wishes, but I'm not sure how abusive this could get due to lack of experience.

In my campaigns I just declare hydras and efreetis don't exist to avoid the whole thing but, I dunno. Somehow spending 5,000xp for a wish hit my soft spot which may make me allow it.

[Mr Adventurer]

Huh! You learn something every day.

[HJPotter]

The campaign I'm running is time-sensitive, as in if the bad guy isn't stopped now the whole nation dies.

I'm not ok with free wishes, but I'm open to the idea of early access wishes, but I'm not sure how abusive this could get due to lack of experience.

In my campaigns I just declare hydras and efreetis don't exist to avoid the whole thing but, I dunno. Somehow spending 5,000xp for a wish hit my soft spot which may make me allow it.

Then you allow it under special circumstances, and report back how abusive it is. :smallbiggrin: Ninth level scrolls and spells are priced in the PHB, and I agree, with the player contributing the 5000 xp at lvl 11, that sounds, if not completely balanced, at least not free. Maybe the PCs patron god/High level old mentor/Head of the Arcane Order/Random Devil takes notice of the attempt to get the wish(es), supports the PCs cause by providing the wishes in return for a favor/quest/? at a later point in time?

If I understand correctly, the PC feels the need to become more powerful overnight, because the world as s/he knows it is threatened. Is their response appropriate? If so, I think they've come up with a cool solution, and take it from there. If, on the other hand, they're using a cannonball to end a mosquito, maybe have the powers that be in this world take notice, and respond. I could see some lawful beings becoming upset about 'the natural order' of level/spell access being disturbed, and become involved. Have the PC explain the necessity of his actions to aforementioned Deity/High level NPC/Whoever and take it from there. This way, effreeti!wishes don't become the solution to every problem you throw at the PCs.

[Bronk]

I'm not ok with free wishes, but I'm open to the idea of early access wishes, but I'm not sure how abusive this could get due to lack of experience.

In my campaigns I just declare hydras and efreetis don't exist to avoid the whole thing but, I dunno. Somehow spending 5,000xp for a wish hit my soft spot which may make me allow it.

If you already don't have efreeti in your game, then it sounds like you don't have much of an issue.

I would say that planar binding something isn't free though, it's more like a mini adventure.

For an average efreeti, the PC has to prepare and set up the magic circle spell, then cast the planar binding spell, then have the efreeti lose a will save to show up, then have the efreeti lose a charisma check to break free. Once all that's done, the PC then has to bribe it to make one deal (how effective the bribe is is up to the DM) then finally win a charisma check against it for that deal. The PC can keep it for more than one day, but each day the efreeti gets to try to break free again.

If they try this with a particular efreeti, it might be more powerful, more charismatic, and have access to dimensional travel or spell resistance, making it easier for it to escape.

Finally, as has been mentioned, these are real efreeti who are going to be angry afterwards, and the PC should be aware that he's probably making a number of evil enemies, not just the efreeti itself but its friends and allies.

As for the wish aspect of it... Normally, the PC wouldn't need to ask the efreeti to scribe a scroll for him, he'd just need to wish for one. Wishing for a magic item is a safe wish, and they wouldn't have to pay any additional money or XP for it. That's the part most people find 'broken'... by this point, they could also request any of the +5 manuals or tomes for no additional cost in money or XP to either the PC or the efreeti. Normally the limiting factor for wishing for magic items is that you have to pay the 5000XP for the wish (or get it through some other means like the scroll, a luckblade, a ring of three wishes, etc.) but then you have to pay an extra 5000XP + double the XP it would take to make the item. At level 11 (the PC using scrolls of wish), that's a serious limiter, since you can't use so much XP that it would cause you to lose a level. However, SLAs don't use either material components or XP.

That's what you're really going to have to watch out for with this kind of thing, especially if you wanted to limit or forbid them in the first place.

[sideswipe]

isnt it true that a SLA is not a spell for the purposes of crafting?

[DeltaEmil]

isnt it true that a SLA is not a spell for the purposes of crafting?Jack_Simth wrote the relevant quote. Spell-like abilities are absolutely valid.

[sideswipe]

Jack_Simth wrote the relevant quote. Spell-like abilities are absolutely valid.

ok, i got very bored of reading long posts about half way :smallbiggrin:

[Telok]

In my games "stock" efreeti have a Circlet of Persuasion, a +4 Cloak of Charisma and Saves, +5 inherent bonuses to all stats, and a Simulacrum of a tiny non-genie person in a Glove of Storing.

On the other hand the efreeti usually also wait to see what you want. Because you might have something that they want. But if you don't want to be a good capitalist and trade then they are prefectly capable of abusing that transport function of Wish to go home and send you some elder fire elementals to play with.

[DeltaEmil]

In my games "stock" efreeti have a Circlet of Persuasion, a +4 Cloak of Charisma and Saves, +5 inherent bonuses to all stats, and a Simulacrum of a tiny non-genie person in a Glove of Storing.

On the other hand the efreeti usually also wait to see what you want. Because you might have something that they want. But if you don't want to be a good capitalist and trade then they are prefectly capable of abusing that transport function of Wish to go home and send you some elder fire elementals to play with.That simply means more treasure for the spellcaster.

Although in truth, we all know that everything is happy with everyone, because everything and its dog has a simulacrum of a wish-granting genie. That way, the real wish-granting genies won't have to be magically abducted anymore against their will all the time, and the rest of the multiverse doesn't have to enter into a pissing contest with the wish-granting genies to get the wishes. Even the simulacrum of a simulacrum of a simulacrum of an efreeti with a total of only 1 hit dice can still grant three wishes per day.

[SiuiS]

I disagree on the RAW part. The cooperative spell provider merely provides the spell, it is the crafter who pays the spell's cost upon beginning the scribing process no?

Anyways, free wishes, even for just inherents are absolutely not allowed in my games, but this is early access... so I dunno.

No. When more than one person is involved in crafting, they split the stuff any way they want (though I assume using the cleric's spell and the wizards caster level). WotC's only official word was that a wizard could have someone else provide the XP cost if needed although it is assumed to be the full cost, not a split.

Doesn't matter though. Wish (SLA) has no XP cost.

[icefractal]

I feel like a lot of people are replying without actually reading the entire OP. :smallamused:

Anyway, regarding the actual method - doesn't sound like it'll be a balance issue. Wish (when it's not free) is a somewhat niche spell anyway, only worth the high cost on the rare occasion where it saves your ass. This campaign setup (players have lots of resources, but simply buying items is difficult/impossible) is probably the best case scenario for it, but still, it's not going to be any huge leap in power.

The only case it'd lead to craziness is if he had a reliable non-dangerous source of XP, and could just say "I craft Wish scrolls for ten years, now I have tons of everything." But it doesn't sound like that's possible.

[Flickerdart]

The only case it'd lead to craziness is if he had a reliable non-dangerous source of XP, and could just say "I craft Wish scrolls for ten years, now I have tons of everything." But it doesn't sound like that's possible.
Well, the thing to do is get Wish as a supernatural ability so you never pay the XP cost (or considerably less brokenly, use a Thought Bottle to repeatedly use a whole level's worth of XP to wish up super expensive magic items).

[icefractal]

Sure, the thing to do if you want your game to collapse into a singularity of sending arbitrarily powerful forces against each-other continuously, no longer having anything resolvable with D&D mechanics. :smallyuk:

Wish without the XP cost: Just say no.

[SiuiS]

I feel like a lot of people are replying without actually reading the entire OP. :smallamused:


This one right?

"Planar binding efreetis for wish is broken, and as DM I will do everything I can to pervert the wish, or make the efreetis use wish to kill the players themselves.

But a player (level 11 wizard) wants to scribe a scroll of wish using the efreeti for cooperative crafting, and pay the 5,000xp himself. Is this balanced? Is this ok?"

Even given this, there shouldn't be a payment of 5,000 XP for use of wish outside the proscribed. Maybe I'm wrong but that was always the thing; very few people ever want to use wish for something that requires XP cost like that.


Sure, the thing to do if you want your game to collapse into a singularity of sending arbitrarily powerful forces against each-other continuously, no longer having anything resolvable with D&D mechanics. :smallyuk:

Wish without the XP cost: Just say no.

Poppycock. If this were true then the entire epic magic system would be a sham and


—Oh.

[Psyren]

This one right?

"Planar binding efreetis for wish is broken, and as DM I will do everything I can to pervert the wish, or make the efreetis use wish to kill the players themselves.

But a player (level 11 wizard) wants to scribe a scroll of wish using the efreeti for cooperative crafting, and pay the 5,000xp himself. Is this balanced? Is this ok?"

Even given this, there shouldn't be a payment of 5,000 XP for use of wish outside the proscribed. Maybe I'm wrong but that was always the thing; very few people ever want to use wish for something that requires XP cost like that.

The big advantage to Wishing for a spell, in addition to handing the Wizard a bunch of divine effects on a platter, is its speed - it can make any legal spell a standard action. Resurrection/Reincarnation? <6 seconds. Atonement? <6 seconds. Discern Location? <6 seconds. Geas, Forbiddance, Hallow? <6 seconds. And of course, you can use it to get that item you really need right away too.

Now, does being free make Miracle better? Absolutely. But Miracle can always be answered simply with "No" - and a DM (roleplaying as the deity) might even be inclined to do this if he/she feels there is a much simpler solution staring the PCs in the face and wants them to think more. In this case, the 5000XP price tag on wish is the equivalent of paying for a hint. (Miracle can also be "no" to simply ratchet up tension, or if the DM doesn't want the players getting off just with a paltry spell slot payment.)

In summary, if you need a critical effect or a specific item RIGHT NOW, 5000 XP can be a relatively small price to pay. (Though of course, if you can get what you need via Limited Wish, even better.)