O death where is thy sting?

[Edhelras]

I guess death is not that bad (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0399.html), really, in a DnD universe, where ressurrection is available even though high-lvl clerics may be hard to come by (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0566.html). And your loved one is only a Plane shift (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0530.html) or Speak with dead (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0015.html) away anyway.

I found it very funny, too, with Roy's logics (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0669.html) that the certain knowledge of what awaits beyond death, and that death may even be reversed, might be one thing increasing the tendency of mortals for warfare and killing.

Still, if the game is to be any fun at all, if the story is to have some tension - there ought to be at least some sting to dying. In computer games, those versions where you simply revive after dying/after the encounter is over swiftly get boring. And the inability to simply "reload" a saved game is something that makes PnP even more thrilling than computer games, despite the fancy graphics.

So, the way we die is important in DnD as well as in Real Life. The concept of being "dying" between -1 and-9 HP is an invention of 3.x, I believe? At least I think it used to be "dead at zero HP" in the older editions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).
However, 3.5 in particular does have this rule, which creates a short period of time during which the character is out of the action, dying, but not yet beyond the last threshold of death. Depending on the damage you took in the round that took you down, you may have several or just a few rounds during which to stabilize spontaneously or by healing/first aid.

From a medical point of view, this kind of makes sense: For many cases of "real life death", there may be a very brief period when the patient is unconscious and dying, but might still be salvagable through heroic action. Similarly, there may often be a prolonged period after initial stabilization, where the person can collapse and start dying again.

Game-wise, I also think this is cool: That there is still something your buddies can do for you, but with the clock of death ticking at an alarming rate. Rich has painted this in Elan's near-death (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0058.html). I think the steady loss of HP towards the irrevocable "-10" makes for great tension and gives a thrilling sense of urgency. The desperate attempts at rescueing, and the rare instant of spontaneous stabilization (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0472.html) makes the game - and the story - more fun.

What then with the new rules for dying in 5th Edition? I bought the "Starter set" for 5ED just to have a look at it. There, you becoming dying at 0 HP. After that, each round you make a unmodified (and unmodifiable!) d20 check, which you fail at <10. If you fail 3 such rolls (whether on row or with successes in between), you die.
Stabilization is possible, but with a WISDOM check (which may be strengthened by skill points in Medicine) with only DC10.

In my opinion, this new version lacks something that 3.5 had. 1) The question of whether you live or die is more up to chance, instead of the slow dying process of 3.5. On the other hand - the new version is better suited for characters in high-lvl games, where the final stroke may do a lot more damage than just put you into negatives.
2) The healing check to stabilize seems a lot easier than the "old" DC15 Heal check, making death in combat a less threat than it was. I kind of liked the idea that it was a true challenge to provide first aid in the middle of combat, an that you really, really wanted to have a cleric in your party in order to provide it.

I'm grateful that Rich still gives us dying in the old-fashioned way, waiting, round for round, for those X-s to appear (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0444.html) in the eyes...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

There is also some sting to death in that bringing someone back from the dead can be quite expensive, and many ways of bringing people back cause them to lose a level. That is a very cool point you bring up, though, about tension when someone is about to die.

[veti]

So, the way we die is important in DnD as well as in Real Life. The concept of being "dying" between -1 and-9 HP is an invention of 3.x, I believe? At least I think it used to be "dead at zero HP" in the older editions (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0572.html).

Not quite an "invention", the concept was there in 1st edition (which said something like "Optionally, when a character is reduced to between 0 and -3 HP, they may not die immediately but instead begin bleeding to death at 1 HP per round, until they reach -10". And we played it without the cutoff point at -3. The game was lethal enough anyway...)


What then with the new rules for dying in 5th Edition? I bought the "Starter set" for 5ED just to have a look at it. There, you becoming dying at 0 HP. After that, each round you make a unmodified (and unmodifiable!) d20 check, which you fail at <10. If you fail 3 such rolls (whether on row or with successes in between), you die.

Haven't played it, but intuitively - that doesn't appeal to me as much. So now it's a matter of pure luck, and may be as little as 3 rounds? Nasty.

Is there any rule about how low your HP have to go to inflict an instant kill, with no possible 'saving' period?

[wumpus]

Except in the OOTS-verse, Belkar can expect to feel death's sting:
The party is operating on the assumption that they aren't raising him.
He long since punched his ticket to a plane nearly everyone would find unpleasant. The best I can hope for him is to wind up on the plane of battle [presumably gated in with a demonic army, since the battlefield is nominally NE] to give him a start on literally becoming a "sexy shoeless god of war".

Eugene's afterlife is somewhat questionable for someone who would at worst get booted "down" to Arcadia (count me as one who thinks Miko is in Arcadaia). As Xykon could tell you: liches exist for a looooong time. Eugene isn't getting in till Xykon is destroyed.

As far as D&D (and similar games) are concerned, any sufficiently high power world that can otherwise pretty much guarantee death by old age to anyone who can afford 5k gp, I'd expect some such powerful people to have at least equally powerful enemies. Animate dead is just a third level spell and not only doubles the material component cost, it raises the needed level of the cleric from 11th to 15th, seriously altering the "supply" in "supply and demand" (the OOTS seems to act like they can find a 15th level good cleric to raise Durkon, but I don't expect to find one in every town). Disintegrate/dust of wind is one combination to require True Resurection. I like the idea of teleporting the body to a known sphere of annihilation, but I'm pretty sure that a sufficiently thorough cremation followed by scattering the ashes (using the planes of fire and air gets the style points a *proper* BEEG needs) ought to do the job (just making sure they aren't recoverable).

For epic play (the OOTS not only has an epic BEEG, a near-epic henchman, Durkula's ECL is likely epic, and there still should be an epic NPC or two to meddle in the plot) you need to prevent true ressurection. Trap the soul seems obvious (trap the soul then destroy the object), and is "only" 8th level. Similar things should exist, but don't appear to be part of srd20.org and are presumed campaign dependant (how old school DMs said "homeruled").

[kierthos]

Except in the OOTS-verse, Belkar can expect to feel death's sting:
The party is operating on the assumption that they aren't raising him.
Or that they won't be able to raise him.

Raise Dead, Resurrection and True Resurrection all have similar requirements in that "the subject’s soul must be free and willing to return".

[Goosefarble]

Haven't played it, but intuitively - that doesn't appeal to me as much. So now it's a matter of pure luck, and may be as little as 3 rounds? Nasty.

Is there any rule about how low your HP have to go to inflict an instant kill, with no possible 'saving' period?

Actually it can be as little as 2 rounds in 5e, as rolling a natural 1 on your save (as one of my players did during our third session) counts as two losses. I believe if an attack's damage brings you to zero and then half your health again (minus bloodied as we called it in 4e), you die instantly.

It's a lot more unforgiving than the previous edition, which are the only two I've played, but I rather like the system.

[Czhorat]

There are also ways in OOTS (and D&D) to die and STAY dead.

Nale, for example, is not coming back from having his body disintegrated. Neither is Malack.

I'll add that the idea that one goes to an afterlife has never, in the real world, eliminated people's fear of death altogether. I don't think it would be all THAT different in a fantasy universe; believers in a literal heaven still want, for various reasons, to live.

[veti]

Eugene's afterlife is somewhat questionable for someone who would at worst get booted "down" to Arcadia (count me as one who thinks Miko is in Arcadaia).

Would anyone else like to see an afterlife in which Miko and Eugene are an item?

Do them both a power of good, I expect.

[SoC175]

First of all the concept of the death save was taken over from 4th edition.


After that, each round you make a unmodified (and unmodifiable!) d20 check, It's normally modifiable by everything that modifies saving throws. It's right on the very paragraph introducing the death save ("You are in the hands o fate now, aided only by spells and features that improve your chances of succeeding on a saving throw.")

Haven't played it, but intuitively - that doesn't appeal to me as much. So now it's a matter of pure luck, and may be as little as 3 rounds? Nasty. Not as deadly as higher level 3.x, where the chance of lading between 0 and -9 was rather small and also a matter of pure luck.

Is there any rule about how low your HP have to go to inflict an instant kill, with no possible 'saving' period? If an attack that drops you to 0 has enough leftover damage that it equals your full hp you die instandly. Also any damage you suffer while dying counts as a failed death saving throw and can kill instandly if it's equal to your max hp (but you don't go into negative hp, the damage equal to your hp has to come from a single source). Also if you are hit by crit while dying you suffer two failures (and any melee hit against a dying creature is an automatical crit)

Trap the soul seems obvious (trap the soul then destroy the object), Actually drestroying the object ends the spells and frees the soul

Nale, for example, is not coming back from having his body disintegrated. Neither is Malack. Only because there are no clerics with true ress available

[ti'esar]

Would anyone else like to see an afterlife in which Miko and Eugene are an item?

While Eugene and Miko were both deeply flawed people, I think we can all agree that neither of them deserves eternal damnation.

:smallwink:

[Peelee]

Only because there are no clerics with true ress available

Doesn't matter for Malack. He'd need an epic-level caster for even True Res to work.

[veti]

While Eugene and Miko were both deeply flawed people, I think we can all agree that neither of them deserves eternal damnation.

I dunno, I think it'd be neat if one of the very last strips is a callback to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html), but with you-know-who...

[littlebum2002]

I dunno, I think it'd be neat if one of the very last strips is a callback to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html), but with you-know-who...

Voldemort?

[Emperordaniel]

I dunno, I think it'd be neat if one of the very last strips is a callback to this (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0039.html), but with you-know-who...

The Doctor?

[dps]

I'll add that the idea that one goes to an afterlife has never, in the real world, eliminated people's fear of death altogether. I don't think it would be all THAT different in a fantasy universe; believers in a literal heaven still want, for various reasons, to live.

I'm not afraid of death, but I'm afraid of dying. Dying will likely hurt.

[Procyonpi]

Eugene's afterlife is somewhat questionable for someone who would at worst get booted "down" to Arcadia (count me as one who thinks Miko is in Arcadaia). As Xykon could tell you: liches exist for a looooong time. Eugene isn't getting in till Xykon is destroyed.

Honestly, Eugene being "Lawful Good" has always struck me as being an artifact of him needing to be the same alignment as Roy. The way he's been characterized (even in life in OtOotPCs and SoD) has always struck me as more True Neutral to Chaotic Neutral.

[factotum]

So you're judging a 70+ year life (plus some years of afterlife) from the maybe 20 minutes we've seen of Eugene on-panel? His wife (who you'd assume would know him quite well) specifically said that Eugene "picks one goal and pursues it with single-minded devotion"--in what kind of bizarre world is that a Chaotic trait? Sure, he may get bored of his projects before he finishes them, but in a lot of cases (his chase of Xykon, making Roy's mother a happy woman) he spends *years* on them before that happens. As for the Good/Evil axis, please name me anything that Eugene did which was actively Evil while he was still alive. Go on. I'll wait.

[Procyonpi]

So you're judging a 70+ year life (plus some years of afterlife) from the maybe 20 minutes we've seen of Eugene on-panel? His wife (who you'd assume would know him quite well) specifically said that Eugene "picks one goal and pursues it with single-minded devotion"--in what kind of bizarre world is that a Chaotic trait? Sure, he may get bored of his projects before he finishes them, but in a lot of cases (his chase of Xykon, making Roy's mother a happy woman) he spends *years* on them before that happens. As for the Good/Evil axis, please name me anything that Eugene did which was actively Evil while he was still alive. Go on. I'll wait.

You don't have to commit active evil to be non-good. Julio Scoundrel is chaotic Neutral per word of Giant. Eugene isn't so much Neutral because of a balance of evil and good, he's just not particularly motivated by doing good and is mostly motivated by selfishness / power / personal relationships. Also, Eugene's "single minded-devotion" is because of his ego / OCD, not because he feels any obligation to uphold some code.

[Keltest]

You don't have to commit active evil to be non-good. Julio Scoundrel is chaotic Neutral per word of Giant. Eugene isn't so much Neutral because of a balance of evil and good, he's just not particularly motivated by doing good and is mostly motivated by selfishness / power / personal relationships. Also, Eugene's "single minded-devotion" is because of his ego / OCD, not because he feels any obligation to uphold some code.

I believe this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?293540-No-love-for-Neutral-alignments-in-OOTS/page5&p=15675045#post15675045) quote from the Giant is now relevant.

Besides that, we know Eugene was part of an adventuring party for years that did things besides hunting Xykon.

[Bob of Mage]

As far as D&D (and similar games) are concerned, any sufficiently high power world that can otherwise pretty much guarantee death by old age to anyone who can afford 5k gp, I'd expect some such powerful people to have at least equally powerful enemies.

Druidic magic gets around old age in 3.x quite easily. In fact it only costs 1K gp in rare oils which would be qiute a bit easier to get your hands on. Sure you are reborn in a new body, but first you get around old age, and second you can restore your body during your second lifetime (you also have quite the head start).

About the only thing keeping people dead is them not wanting to come back (might be more common then one would think if the afterlife is nice), no one caring enough to raise them (AKA 99.999% of NPCs), and a few rare epic tier "you can not raise" effects (there's an example in the Epic Level Hankbook of an assassin guild using an item with this effect due to assassins being pointless otherwise at epic levels).

[Keltest]

Druidic magic gets around old age in 3.x quite easily. In fact it only costs 1K gp in rare oils which would be qiute a bit easier to get your hands on. Sure you are reborn in a new body, but first you get around old age, and second you can restore your body during your second lifetime (you also have quite the head start).

About the only thing keeping people dead is them not wanting to come back (might be more common then one would think if the afterlife is nice), no one caring enough to raise them (AKA 99.999% of NPCs), and a few rare epic tier "you can not raise" effects (there's an example in the Epic Level Hankbook of an assassin guild using an item with this effect due to assassins being pointless otherwise at epic levels).

I think youre over-estimating the availability of reincarnation spells. Even if your average joe-schmoe adventurer manages to get enough gold to pay for the components, theres the problem of actually finding one of those forest-dwelling druids.

[factotum]

Plus, you might not *want* to be brought back as a troglodyte or bugbear... :smallsmile:

[Bob of Mage]

I think youre over-estimating the availability of reincarnation spells. Even if your average joe-schmoe adventurer manages to get enough gold to pay for the components, theres the problem of actually finding one of those forest-dwelling druids.

You only need to find one who can cast fourth level spells (or someone with Limited Wish a seventh level wizard spell). So you need to find a level 7 Druid, which is two levels lower then Raise Dead (level 9). I'm pretty sure there are enough druids in the world for someone who needed a reincarnation spell to find one.

My point was more that old age was also dealt with in D&D. I was mostly pointing out the seemly forgotten druid option. The fact is that any powerful mortal could only be stopped by an epic effect that out right stops bringing them back, or killing them and wiping out all knowlegde that they every lived.


Plus, you might not *want* to be brought back as a troglodyte or bugbear... :smallsmile:

Well which would you rather being alive or being dead? It only changes you on the outside, which can lead you to being better overall then you were. Humans for example woukld keep their starting feat (not sure about gaining more skills as they level, but they would keep what they have already) and in the case of bugbears they would gain better stats. Of course being a kobold fighter is not going to be that good.

If you are worried about how some level 1 commoners would react there is always magic to hid your looks. Also at higher levels you can undo the body change with a wish and return to your old body.

[Keltest]

You only need to find one who can cast fourth level spells (or someone with Limited Wish a seventh level wizard spell). So you need to find a level 7 Druid, which is two levels lower then Raise Dead (level 9). I'm pretty sure there are enough druids in the world for someone who needed a reincarnation spell to find one.

My point was more that old age was also dealt with in D&D. I was mostly pointing out the seemly forgotten druid option. The fact is that any powerful mortal could only be stopped by an epic effect that out right stops bringing them back, or killing them and wiping out all knowlegde that they every lived.



Well which would you rather being alive or being dead? It only changes you on the outside, which can lead you to being better overall then you were. Humans for example woukld keep their starting feat (not sure about gaining more skills as they level, but they would keep what they have already) and in the case of bugbears they would gain better stats. Of course being a kobold fighter is not going to be that good.

If you are worried about how some level 1 commoners would react there is always magic to hid your looks. Also at higher levels you can undo the body change with a wish and return to your old body.

That's all well and good, except the spell (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/reincarnate.htm)explicitly does not work on deaths from old age.

For that matter, there are plenty of non-epic effects that stop reincarnation. Anything that destroys the body, any form of soul trap, various death effects. Pretty much everything that stymies the Raise Dead spell also prevents reincarnation.

[SirKazum]

I think the idea is to use Reincarnation on the regular to "reset" your age, so you never reach your maximum lifespan to begin with. And while that seems legit by RAW, it also seems like an all too easy way to circumvent something that's supposed to be unbeatable, which is the fact that everyone reaches an unrecoverable death sooner or later. RAW rules say nothing about how old your reincarnated body can be and whether that can be a way to escape old age, but I'd rule-0 that you come back in a body as old as your previous one was (adjusted for each race's lifespan; for example, a 35-year-old human who comes back as an elf would have a 175-year-old body).

[Keltest]

I think the idea is to use Reincarnation on the regular to "reset" your age, so you never reach your maximum lifespan to begin with. And while that seems legit by RAW, it also seems like an all too easy way to circumvent something that's supposed to be unbeatable, which is the fact that everyone reaches an unrecoverable death sooner or later. RAW rules say nothing about how old your reincarnated body can be and whether that can be a way to escape old age, but I'd rule-0 that you come back in a body as old as your previous one was (adjusted for each race's lifespan; for example, a 35-year-old human who comes back as an elf would have a 175-year-old body).

Personally, id just Rule 0 that if some strange person came up to a level 7+ druid with a head in a sack, the druid would just sic a bear on them until they went away. People who walk around with heads in sacks aren't to be trusted.

[SirKazum]

Well yeah, but you never know. People are strange beasts, you never know when a greedy would-be immortal actually manages to find a druid who's corruptible enough to play along with that. Maybe they'd figure that if it wasn't for Reincarnation spells, the guy would be trying to become a lich, so better attain immortality through the cycle of reincarnation than through unnatural undeath.

[Keltest]

Well yeah, but you never know. People are strange beasts, you never know when a greedy would-be immortal actually manages to find a druid who's corruptible enough to play along with that. Maybe they'd figure that if it wasn't for Reincarnation spells, the guy would be trying to become a lich, so better attain immortality through the cycle of reincarnation than through unnatural undeath.

Well, in that case, the DRUID now gets old and dies. So you need to now find another druid that corruptible.

Although id think that eventually youd get tired of changing races and losing those levels. There are easier ways to gain immortality than reincarnating ad infinium.

[SirKazum]

Well I guess it's a sort of a proof-of-concept thing. It's not about how practical it is, it's just the fact that it's technically possible to beat the restriction of old age via a 4th-level spell and 1000 gp worth of material components. Hell, you could get a druid to make a half-dozen scrolls, get some underling with high enough UMD to have a 100% success rate to use them on your corpse whenever you hit Venerable, and you're set for a looong time. (And the decades you'll have between applications of the spell should be enough to find and train your scroll user, and replenish your scroll stash). The point is, no matter if it's easily accomplished, it can be done.

[veti]

I think the idea is to use Reincarnation on the regular to "reset" your age, so you never reach your maximum lifespan to begin with. And while that seems legit by RAW, it also seems like an all too easy way to circumvent something that's supposed to be unbeatable, which is the fact that everyone reaches an unrecoverable death sooner or later. RAW rules say nothing about how old your reincarnated body can be and whether that can be a way to escape old age, but I'd rule-0 that you come back in a body as old as your previous one was (adjusted for each race's lifespan; for example, a 35-year-old human who comes back as an elf would have a 175-year-old body).

I've never understood how the "Reincarnate" spell is supposed to work. Does the soul get plonked into a random body of the appropriate race that was already walking around? But then what happens to the body's previous owner? Or does a new body get created out of thin air? If so, that seems like a really powerful spell for 4th level.

I'd be tempted to houserule that the new body is a newborn, and you're going to have to wait X years before it becomes playable. That seems to me more in keeping with what "reincarnation" is supposed to mean.

[Keltest]

I've never understood how the "Reincarnate" spell is supposed to work. Does the soul get plonked into a random body of the appropriate race that was already walking around? But then what happens to the body's previous owner? Or does a new body get created out of thin air? If so, that seems like a really powerful spell for 4th level.

I'd be tempted to houserule that the new body is a newborn, and you're going to have to wait X years before it becomes playable. That seems to me more in keeping with what "reincarnation" is supposed to mean.

I believe the new body gets constructed out of fairy dust and the wishes of children, much like we see happen to Roy's body when he gets resurrected.

Also, it is a 4th level spell, which is not the same thing as being available at druid level 4.

[ti'esar]

How did this thread become about using reincarnation to achieve immortality, exactly?

[factotum]

How did this thread become about using reincarnation to achieve immortality, exactly?

It's a thread about resurrection in D&D, why is it a surprise that it's headed off on that particular tangent?

[SirKazum]

I've never understood how the "Reincarnate" spell is supposed to work. Does the soul get plonked into a random body of the appropriate race that was already walking around? But then what happens to the body's previous owner? Or does a new body get created out of thin air? If so, that seems like a really powerful spell for 4th level.

I'd be tempted to houserule that the new body is a newborn, and you're going to have to wait X years before it becomes playable. That seems to me more in keeping with what "reincarnation" is supposed to mean.

Yeah, it would make more sense, thematically speaking, to have the soul come back into a newborn baby or whatever race it is, but that's not very practical at all. Keep in mind that, once again keeping with the whole "reincarnation" theme, in 2E you had a decent chance of coming back as an animal, but they scrapped that as it's not very practical either. And yeah, a new body gets constructed out of thin air and magically aged into adulthood, which is pretty powerful for a 4th-level spell, but spell level considerations take into effect just game balance, not the in-world implications of what you're doing. And coming back into a random body isn't that great in practical terms for your average adventurer.

[Chronos]

So, the OP is saying that he just can't Handel how easy it is for people to come back?