Haggling

[Spacehamster]

What skill should be used for haggling, persuasion? And also when you haggle would you as a DM do it as a contest or just set a DC to beat?

Spacehamster to infinity and beyond!

[KhorashIronfist]

Yes, persuasion would be the most appropriate skill in my mind.

Per DMG page 130, it is a charisma (persuasion) check in the case of trying to sell a magical item, and it seems to involve a set DC.

[archaeo]

Seems like whatever the applicable Charisma check would be would work, Persuasion or Intimidation.

Setting a DC seems like an easier solution than assigning every shopkeeper a Cha score for the purposes of an opposed check. I'd be more likely to just skip setting a DC altogether and base my response on the results of the roll.

[Louro]

What about appraise?
I don't feel like with one roll a character could know the value of a weapon, statue, gem, painting, dragon bone, religious cup, whatever...
Would you set the DC for a weapon lower for the fighter?

[Feldarove]

,fInvestigation for appraise. And the randomness of it deals with the oddities of the item.

Most adventurers know the price of a longsword, but what about one with silver inlays and a emerald in the hilt?

[JAL_1138]

Make the player actually haggle with you. This works amazingly well if you're a pawnbroker or a lawyer who does settlement negotiations. By "well," I mean the PC trying to sell something ends up owing your shopkeeper his shirt in exchange for taking all said PC's other possessions off his hands. </kidding>

[MadGrady]

Set DC is fine and all, but I would actually like to make it a contest of persuasion (perhaps intimidation depending on player) vs Shopkeep's Wisdom save. A haggle shouldn't be resolved in 2 quick seconds. - it should be a process - make it fun as a DM. If the player actually roleplays it out and does a decent job, give advantage to their roll. If the player loses the 1st roll, they can try again, but this time either at disadvantage themselves, or the Shopkeep has advantage.

Set DC's (imho) cause a problem if a player sort of figures them out. They may avoid roleplay due to knowing DC is difficult, vs not knowing anything about this shopkeep, and ther andomness of the die rolling actually enhances the roleplayability.

[Spacehamster]

Set DC is fine and all, but I would actually like to make it a contest of persuasion (perhaps intimidation depending on player) vs Shopkeep's Wisdom save. A haggle shouldn't be resolved in 2 quick seconds. - it should be a process - make it fun as a DM. If the player actually roleplays it out and does a decent job, give advantage to their roll. If the player loses the 1st roll, they can try again, but this time either at disadvantage themselves, or the Shopkeep has advantage.

Set DC's (imho) cause a problem if a player sort of figures them out. They may avoid roleplay due to knowing DC is difficult, vs not knowing anything about this shopkeep, and ther andomness of the die rolling actually enhances the roleplayability.

true in a way but you can also make different shopkeeps have different dc, but making it a contest sounds nice enough. need to be rolls tho cause
my players is not very roleplay-y. :)

[Slipperychicken]

Opposed charisma(persuasion) contest between buyer and seller, and the winner may adjust the price in his favor (probably up to 5% or so from book price for most transactions), while the loser faces a final non-negotiable "take it or leave it" ultimatum. Since this contest represents the entire negotiation process, no further haggling is possible; the loser must choose at the end.

[EDIT: If the loser (if a buyer) knows that he can buy a similar product for a better price elsewhere, he will usually reject an upwards-adjusted price. Similarly, if the loser (if a seller) is not desperate to move his product, and knows that many other customers will buy his product or service for a better price, he will usually reject a downwards-adjusted price. This provides incentives for winners to keep prices at or near market price for commonly-traded items. If both parties would stick to market price, then no contest is necessary, and the two may simply trade at the market price.]

Either side may also attempt to lie to or threaten the other, attempting a charisma(deception) or charisma(intimidation) check, both opposed by wisdom(insight); success provides advantage on the negotiation check, failure imposes disadvantage. Either option may later carry repercussions at the DM's discretion. Most people are antagonized by such lies or threats, and most civilized societies are keen to punish negotiators who consistently use such underhanded tactics.

[Spacehamster]

Opposed charisma(persuasion) contest between buyer and seller, and the winner may adjust the price in his favor (probably up to 5% or so from book price for most transactions), while the loser faces a final non-negotiable "take it or leave it" ultimatum. Since this contest represents the entire negotiation process, no further haggling is possible; the loser must choose at the end.

[EDIT: If the loser (if a buyer) knows that he can buy a similar product for a better price elsewhere, he will usually reject an upwards-adjusted price. Similarly, if the loser (if a seller) is not desperate to move his product, and knows that many other customers will buy his product or service for a better price, he will usually reject a downwards-adjusted price. This provides incentives for winners to keep prices at or near market price for commonly-traded items. If both parties would stick to market price, then no contest is necessary, and the two may simply trade at the market price.]

Either side may also attempt to lie to or threaten the other, attempting a charisma(deception) or charisma(intimidation) check, both opposed by wisdom(insight); success provides advantage on the negotiation check, failure imposes disadvantage. Either option may later carry repercussions at the DM's discretion. Most people are antagonized by such lies or threats, and most civilized societies are keen to punish negotiators who consistently use such underhanded tactics.

sounds like a nice idea, could add or remove percentage amount depending by how much you win/loose the roll, win by 1-7 means 5% price in your favor, 8-11 means 10% and 12+ means 15%,
think I will do it like this. :)

[MadGrady]

sounds like a nice idea, could add or remove percentage amount depending by how much you win/loose the roll, win by 1-7 means 5% price in your favor, 8-11 means 10% and 12+ means 15%,
think I will do it like this. :)

This mechanic seems fiddly. I like it :)

[Camman1984]

Anyone ever been faced by players who almost see haggling or negotiation as a mechanical process. They walk in, say i want to buy an item. I say the price then they just say "i got a 15 for my haggle roll" no role play nothing. Then they get annoyed when you dont reward their natural 20 with some freebie.

The worst case, playing with a low rp group was one rolled and got a 10% discount, then he said he wanted to haggle again for another 10% and got annoyed that i wouldnt let him.

[Spacehamster]

Anyone ever been faced by players who almost see haggling or negotiation as a mechanical process. They walk in, say i want to buy an item. I say the price then they just say "i got a 15 for my haggle roll" no role play nothing. Then they get annoyed when you dont reward their natural 20 with some freebie.

The worst case, playing with a low rp group was one rolled and got a 10% discount, then he said he wanted to haggle again for another 10% and got annoyed that i wouldnt let him.

Should have let him, had he rolled perfect lower it by a really small amount, but if he had rolled a bad roll the price should have gone up again(merchant gets annoyed by pc's constant haggling). :)

[Slipperychicken]

Anyone ever been faced by players who almost see haggling or negotiation as a mechanical process. They walk in, say i want to buy an item. I say the price then they just say "i got a 15 for my haggle roll" no role play nothing. Then they get annoyed when you dont reward their natural 20 with some freebie.


Personally, I don't like haggling, so that's how I try to do it. I just want to walk into the market district, make as few rolls as possible, maybe hear some flavor text, and get right back to the action. If I enjoyed trading and negotiations so much, I'd have gone into marketing.

Also, wasting time by dragging out negotiations is why I recommend that only one roll be permitted to determine the final outcome of a negotiation (with the exception of optional rolls to deceive or threaten the other party). Even if the PC's strategy is to wear down the other party with extended talks, that should be covered as part of the charisma(persuasion) roll, rather than wasting the DM's time until he gives a discount. Of course, an affair which warrants such extended in-character talks (like a huge corporate merger or similarly complicated deal) would likely be a background element rather than something determined by a series of rolls.

[MadGrady]

Personally, I don't like haggling, so that's how I try to do it. I just want to walk into the market district, make as few rolls as possible, maybe hear some flavor text, and get right back to the action. If I enjoyed trading and negotiations so much, I'd have gone into marketing.



The beauty of this system, is that your opinion here is completely validated by the system, as well as a more fiddly system. :smallbiggrin:

This type of mechanic is definitely going to be more group dependent on how it sees use.

As far as the interactions with really low rp group, you have to judge your players. Some people really enjoy the game, the story, the adventure, but just for the life of them can't roleplay or think quickly on their feet like that. If that's your player/group, then there shouldn't be anything wrong with them just saying I roll. The game IS designed around rolling dice afterall to determine results.

As a DM - my job is to facilitate the story around the actions of my players. It's cooperative. I shouldn't penalize them just because they can't be a great actor.

[metaridley18]

Anyone ever been faced by players who almost see haggling or negotiation as a mechanical process. They walk in, say i want to buy an item. I say the price then they just say "i got a 15 for my haggle roll" no role play nothing. Then they get annoyed when you dont reward their natural 20 with some freebie.

The worst case, playing with a low rp group was one rolled and got a 10% discount, then he said he wanted to haggle again for another 10% and got annoyed that i wouldnt let him.

I see people complain about this a lot, but it feels like a punishment to charismatic players. DMs (usually) don't make fighters role play how they would slash their sword, with a bonus if they do it well, and we don't make mages say how they would actually cast their spell. You may have them give a line of fluff ("Arthur charges in and slashes down boldly"), but then it's mechanical after that.

I never understood why charismatic players get the shaft so often. Almost every DM I've ever seen makes you say exactly what your character is going to say, and then penalizes or grants a bonus based on how effective THAT EXACT SPEECH would be.

Maybe that's just me and other people play it out mechanically.

[Louro]

If you just roll for every social interaction.... then why are you playing a RPG?

As DM I like to reward players for being ingenious, and I don't allow important encounters to rely on charisma checks. They might roll to sound resolute or to hide their doubts, but I (and every master I met) like to RP such things.

Is a waste of time to RP a haggle scene? I don't think so.

[Justin Sane]

Is a waste of time to RP a haggle scene? I don't think so.The first haggle scene? Can be very nice to showcase some hidden facets of your character, sure. The 73rd haggling scene? Yeah, I just want to throw some dice at it until it goes away.

[metaridley18]

If you just roll for every social interaction.... then why are you playing a RPG?

As DM I like to reward players for being ingenious, and I don't allow important encounters to rely on charisma checks. They might roll to sound resolute or to hide their doubts, but I (and every master I met) like to RP such things.

Is a waste of time to RP a haggle scene? I don't think so.

I don't have my players roll for every social interaction, and I don't have them roll for every combat or mile traveled either. Sometimes I hand wave those things as simply succeeding, sometimes we RP it to see how well their real words would convince someone, or their real combat tactics affect some battle.

However, if you're not relying on the character sheet and only relying on the RP, then why bother with the mechanics at all? Why are you playing D&D? You could just as easily be telling a story around a campfire together.

And I think that not allowing ability checks to contribute to success in important situations does a great disservice to charisma based characters. You would never say that you don't allow knowledge rolls to grant the character information that the player doesn't know.

In both cases I wouldn't allow the skill check to circumvent the entire adventure. You can't roll History to find out how to destroy the Hammer of Jok Tor, part of the adventure is learning that information in the first place. You can't roll Persuasion to get the Duke to send an army to slay the dragon, the adventure is slaying the dragon, or finding proof for the Duke that the dragon is a threat.

But that's just an example of having skill checks not be too powerful. I wouldn't allow a party to RP their way into getting an army either, no matter how skilled they are in real life.

I'm just saying, in any circumstance where I call for a Charisma type check, I'll ask the player the angle they're going for, RP it a little bit, and call for the check unmodified by the RP. Essentially, I treat it the same as a knowledge roll, or an Athletics check.

To do otherwise is to force Charisma based PCs to rely on the charisma of their player, which seems like a punishment to me.

Granted, I care little for haggling or appraising either, as that seems a bit too like Accountancy: 5th Edition to worry about for my games. As 'unrealistic' as it is, prices are set the same everywhere, everyone can identify the approximate value of any item, and no merchant will pay more than half value or take less than PHB listed value for any object. I can see why others enjoy that, but my players don't.

[Feldarove]

The first haggle scene? Can be very nice to showcase some hidden facets of your character, sure. The 73rd haggling scene? Yeah, I just want to throw some dice at it until it goes away.

If your players always try to haggle it can get annoying

But as a DM you can counter against that

Maybe the NPC doesn't want to be Haggled and refuses to do business or the classic....

PC - "How much for this healing potion?"

NPC - "Same as anywhere else, 50 gold pieces"

PC - "I'll give you 40 gold pieces"

NPC - "60 gold pieces, final offer"

[Justin Sane]

If your players always try to haggle it can get annoying

But as a DM you can counter against that

Maybe the NPC doesn't want to be Haggled and refuses to do business or the classic....

PC - "How much for this healing potion?"

NPC - "Same as anywhere else, 50 gold pieces"

PC - "I'll give you 40 gold pieces"

NPC - "60 gold pieces, final offer"I meant the other way around, when the DM expects us to RP every little monetary interaction with an NPC, including, but not limited to: stabling our mounts, getting a drink at the inn, getting some food at the inn, selling off some random gems, buying some arrows.

[Doug Lampert]

Everyone in a Medieval economy haggles, it's part of going shopping. There are no standardized prices because there are no standardized goods, effectively EVERYTHING an adventurer buys is one off hand made. (And most is actually commissioned in advance, but who wants to wait around while the armorer and his assistants make your armor at 15 GP or so in total value per day.)

There are presumably differences in quality and function of various "identical" items from the equipment list, they're simply too small to represent in game with only a 5% resolution on most action. IMAO haggling should normally be abstracted out along with the small quality differences that eliminate actual standardized prices.

You probably don't play out every trip to the bathroom, "roll constitution to check for quality of bowel movement". I see no reason to play out most purchases either. You have money, you want goods, this is an arrangement that people have been successfully managing for the most part for the past several thousand years.

But if for some reason a player insists on haggling, then remember that the the prices in the book are presumably what you'd normally pay for a relatively big ticket item in your home town with plenty of time and maybe some friends to assist. That's why that's the cost for starting gear. Thus book prices represent what a decent haggler gets under those extremely favorable circumstances. Start the price at 3 times normal or so, persuasion 15-19 gets you to the normal price, 20+ gets you to 1/3rd off. No rerolls, but you have advantage on the roll if you spend several extra hours going from shop to shop and comparison shopping.

Locals have no problem, +2 circumstance for being local, take 10, +5 for advantage for a major purchase, POOF, normal price; if you or a relative have persuasion trained and decent charisma, or if the rest of your family assists, 20+ isn't hard at all. Thos numbers are if anything too low.

But I'm not playing papers and paychecks. Let's just skip all this.

[Louro]

However, if you're not relying on the character sheet and only relying on the RP, then why bother with the mechanics at all? Why are you playing D&D? You could just as easily be telling a story around a campfire together.
I didn't say I were not relying on the character sheets at all.

And I think that not allowing ability checks to contribute to success in important situations does a great disservice to charisma based characters. You would never say that you don't allow knowledge rolls to grant the character information that the player doesn't know.

To do otherwise is to force Charisma based PCs to rely on the charisma of their player, which seems like a punishment to me.
We usually do both, and for me is the most natural way, as it has been that way on most tables I played.

It's not like the player needs charisma at all, he just speaks. If his demand/trick/lie/persuasion seems plausible and is supported by facts that the NPC might consider true/profitable/interesting I give automatic success (according to NPC behavior).
If the player wants to change someone's behavior but doesn't have the tools/facts to enforce it, I let him speak and then he rolls. The DC will depend on his words.
So, rather than charisma it is about intelligence and ingenious.


Granted, I care little for haggling or appraising either, as that seems a bit too like Accountancy: 5th Edition to worry about for my games. As 'unrealistic' as it is, prices are set the same everywhere, everyone can identify the approximate value of any item, and no merchant will pay more than half value or take less than PHB listed value for any object. I can see why others enjoy that, but my players don't.
Why are prices set the same everywhere? Yup, it's rules but unrealistic as you said. Healing potions on a small town will cost more, horses from a nomad community will cost less. Iron/steel items will be prohibitive if the mines are being raided by orcs constantly.
Thus, RPing the buy/sell scenes helps me adding flavour to the world and keep the suspension of disbelief manageable. Or something like that.

[metaridley18]

Why are prices set the same everywhere? Yup, it's rules but unrealistic as you said. Healing potions on a small town will cost more, horses from a nomad community will cost less. Iron/steel items will be prohibitive if the mines are being raided by orcs constantly.
Thus, RPing the buy/sell scenes helps me adding flavour to the world and keep the suspension of disbelief manageable. Or something like that.

Like I said, I can see why people do it (it's to help build the world and support verisimilitude), but it's just not important to my group. If I need to flavor the limitations of supplies, the thing will be unavailable, or only available in a limited amount. I guess we just don't focus on inventory and supply management.

[GiantOctopodes]

My best recommendation is to vary it up- in large cities where you're dealing with a subordinate and not the owner, use "the price is the price", against someone exceptionally shrewd or skilled, Roleplay it or use an opposed content. Against generic shopkeep with a one person shop in a random village, have it a set DC and have them make a check (though don't crazy with the impact it has, regardless, no one is going to buy a sword for more than they can sell it for, and compare the results you give them vs what practicing a profession provides in general). The mere act of varying how you respond to the situation can in and of itself provide some verisimilitude and depth to the world, so that's something to keep in mind. Definitely check that against your PCs expected wealth by level and time spent in real time on the activity, though. If you reward the players for any activity, you will see it happen more and more, so similar to how if you don't want your players torturing enemies you shouldn't have that activity provide actionable evidence, if you don't want them spending an hour real time haggling with shopkeeps, don't let doing so double their wealth obtained from selling items.

[D.U.P.A.]

To do otherwise is to force Charisma based PCs to rely on the charisma of their player, which seems like a punishment to me.


I agree, after all you roleplay to be someone else, not having the character the same skills as you have. Like if I want to play a playboy, but I can't get a GF in RL. Now I can't at least roleplay someone who can? Because if I would be able to be a playboy like my character, then I will rather be hanging with b*tches than playing dnd. :smallcool: