How can I defeat Charging Minotaur and Battle Leader's Charge?

[Melkior]

Hello, I'm running a game of dnd that has two ToB characters in it. I created an NPC character whose strategy was based around using a ranseur in combination with combat reflexes, Hold the Line (which provokes AOOs when someone enteres threatened space) and a warblade manuever to jump away as a free action. This character would have absolutely wrecekd the warblade charger character. Now the players have hit level 3, and he gained a manuever that allows him to ignore AOOs during a charge. How can I disrupt this?

Ideas: If I could make the path be considered difficult terrain, this would ruin the ability. To this end, the ranseur man could deploy caltrops, but that wastes actions and requires a bit more prepration than I'd like. Is there some feat I could give him that would produce the desired affect? If not how should I handle this when it comes time to actually fight the party with this guy and his allies?

[Lathund]

- Use readied actions instead of AoOs.
- Have the NPC be invisible and stand between the charger and his victim. Unless the PC has Improved Overrun, that's going to problematic for his charge.
- Let the fight take place in a room with lots of obstacles, like bookcases and tables.
- Fatigue (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#fascinated).

[deuxhero]

He has allies? Tell us about them. Even a level 1 commoner or familiar with hands can throw marbles and caltrops down for him. Caltrops is a wizard cantrip that instantly layers an area with caltrops (grease is also an option and other classes have options too).

You could utilize solid terrain he has to walk around (or climb over), almost any battlefield could easily hold something that works without being implausible.

[Melkior]

He is a knight of the round table, his allies are the other knights, who are all mechanically different. There is an ubercharger with a martial throw manuever, a swashbuckler, a sword and board fighter, Merlin, a sorcerer (who will look into that cantrip) and depending on the circumstances tehres also Arthurs level 1-2 unremarkable fighter followers. (this is an E6 campaign).

But this palyer has his own allies, and if it takes multiple people working together to take down this one player, it wouldn't look good for the knights. There are 6 PCs, and they may have their own level 1-2 followers.

[Troacctid]

The Earth Devotion feat would let him create difficult terrain as an immediate action.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Battle Leader's Charge:
As part of this maneuver, you charge an opponent. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge. If your charge attack hits, it deals an extra 10 points of damage.

The Hold the Line attack of opportunity is not like regular AoOs: it doesn't happen when your opponent leaves a threatened square, but when they enter it.

If you say that "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge" refers only to the normal movement AoOs, then Hold the Line still works. Alternatively, you can rule that Hold the Line is a more specific exception than Battle Leader's Charge, and therefore trumps it, but I don't know how sound that is.

You can also use Counter Charge, a first-level Setting Sun maneuver. That will be a bit less "I want the rules to make my counter work", although I do feel the above arguments have some merit.

[Troacctid]

Battle Leader's Charge:
As part of this maneuver, you charge an opponent. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge. If your charge attack hits, it deals an extra 10 points of damage.

The Hold the Line attack of opportunity is not like regular AoOs: it doesn't happen when your opponent leaves a threatened square, but when they enter it.

If you say that "You do not provoke attacks of opportunity for moving as part of this charge" refers only to the normal movement AoOs, then Hold the Line still works. Alternatively, you can rule that Hold the Line is a more specific exception than Battle Leader's Charge, and therefore trumps it, but I don't know how sound that is.

The maneuver is crystal clear that movement as part of the charge doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity. Leaving and entering a threatened square are both movement, made as part of the charge, so neither provokes. I don't see how you could argue otherwise.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, it's a bit of a specific reading, but this is in the PHB AoO rules:
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing an action within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes an attack of opportunity from the threatening opponent. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot-step (see page 144) and the withdraw action (see page 143).

The argument is essentially that the phrase "moving as part of a charge" strictly refers to the above definition, and that all other ways to get AoOs still apply. Another way of phrasing it is that "attacking as part of a charge" is a distracting action made in a threatened square, similar to unarmed attacks, trip attacks and so on (normally, it wouldn't be, but that'd be the feat benefit). The AoO from Hold the Line is resolved "immediately before the charge attack is resolved", which suggests that the movement must already have ended when you get the AoO. This also means that you wouldn't be able to get an AoO against someone who was charging through your threatened area, although the first sentence ("You may make an attack of opportunity against a charging opponent who enters an area you threaten"), on its own, suggests you can stop a charge halfway.

'nother edit: I think Hold the Line was originally meant to be used only against people charging you (and as a consequence, only against people next to you, because reach weapons don't exist), not anyone who happened to be charging in your threat range. Incidentally, a halfling in full plate charging near a colossal spiked chain user would be hilarious. The halfling wouldn't be able to reach the colossus (in fact could be moving away from them), but would still provoke.

[Renen]

You can have a follower with a greatshield and a readied action who moves in front of you if you get charged.

[Baroknik]

Cometary Collision from PHB2 lets you charge in response to an enemies charge to ruin their action, you could look into this.
Also the knight class can treat adjacent squares as difficult terrain.

[fishyfishyfishy]

I'm going to propose an alternative idea: let the player kick some knight butt. It's not often melee types get to shine so why not? I'm not suggesting you hand the encounter over to them, just that you leave the build as is and try to work with what you have. The player has the advantage here and the knight will have to adapt to that. If the knight gets the higher initiative have him ready his polearm against the charge and go from there.

[Melkior]

Fishy, I would normally agree with you, but there is something I didn't mention. The players already fought the knight in a tournament, and he observed the crusaders ability to get through his defensive line with a manuever. Since that time, this knight has had the opportunity to go on a quest with King Arthur and level up, and wants to patch a hole in his defenses.

[Know(Nothing)]

Kelgore's Grave Mist is a no-save AoE that fatigues and does cold damage. Great for stopping one or many chargers. Keep as a last resort, as using it against martial PCs is pretty cruel.

[Andreaz]

Ready an action against charge. Use a spear or similar anti-charge weapon. It's not an AoO, so there's no worries there.
Anti-charge weapons deal double damage against a charging target in such readied action.

So you wanna charge? go right ahead. +10 damage? No problem. Here, take my 1d8+1,5*str....twice.
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Force the character to turn around. Use cover to stay out of charge lining until the character is too close to charge.

[Melkior]

Ready an action against charge. Use a spear or similar anti-charge weapon. It's not an AoO, so there's no worries there.
Anti-charge weapons deal double damage against a charging target in such readied action.

So you wanna charge? go right ahead. +10 damage? No problem. Here, take my 1d8+1,5*str....twice.
-------------------------------------------------------
Force the character to turn around. Use cover to stay out of charge lining until the character is too close to charge.

If I could get more damage on this reaction attack this would begin to look like a solid plan. Does anyone know of a way to do that?

[Troacctid]

If I could get more damage on this reaction attack this would begin to look like a solid plan. Does anyone know of a way to do that?

The Braced For Charge feat lets you set any polearm against a charge to deal double damage. The Pike Hedge feat lets you set any weapon against a charge to deal double damage, or if the weapon can already be set against a charge, it deals triple damage instead. Both are from Dragon Compendium.

[thesilentx]

According to the Tome of Battle Errata, the 3rd level Devoted Spirit Stance "Thicket of Blades" stops the any lower level maneuvers that specifically state they do not provoke AoO. In other words, Charging Minotaur and Battle Leader's Charge are nullified by Thicket, provided you are using the errata.

Also important to note, Knight's Bulwark of Defense ability only applies to opponents that begin their turn within the knight's threatened area.

[Sian]

there is no Tome of Battle Errata ... theres a file that for the most part is Complete Mage, being named Tome of Battle errata ... What you're thinking of is most likely the (well made) homebrew errata from Brilliantgameologists

[fishyfishyfishy]

Fishy, I would normally agree with you, but there is something I didn't mention. The players already fought the knight in a tournament, and he observed the crusaders ability to get through his defensive line with a manuever. Since that time, this knight has had the opportunity to go on a quest with King Arthur and level up, and wants to patch a hole in his defenses.

Oh I see. That is a little bit different. Well I don't have any specific advice that hasn't already been mentioned as an option. Happy gaming!

[Cenric]

Have you thought of adding to your lockdown capabilities?

Being able to trip is great for ruining chargers, plus it takes him out for the next round where standing will provoke AoOs.

Disarming is also good, but is more easily countered by locked gauntlets.

I'd suggest sunder but a player might hate you for breaking their beatstick, especially when its 90% of their class.

You have a wizard, so enlarge person him for range and have him ready against a charge to protect the others

He can still be very effective locking down other movement with hold the line, but against your warblade id suggest readying a trip

[Deophaun]

Steadfast Boots. MIC pg 138. For the low price of 1800 gp, when holding a two-handed weapon you are always treated as if it is readied against anything that charges you. Might be a tad bit on the generous side for loot at this stage, but it's not totally unreasonable.