factotum problem

[kaffalidjmah]

Hi guys i have a problem. A serious problem. Factotum level 19, when gain access to all the EX ability from base class. The guys just asked me "can i choose spellcasting? Or maneuver from tome of battle?" for spellcasting i said no, correct me if i am wrong. For tome of battle i don't know. In similar situation, how do you handle this? Before anyone ask out, "base class" in the factotum ability descrption for me is every class that have 20 level, not just player handbook.

Thank for the attention

[Sian]

as spellcasting is a supernatural ability (read the definition of (Su)), thats quite easy to handle

as for maneuvers, read the maneuver in question as some of them explicitly call themselves out as being supernatural

[kaffalidjmah]

as spellcasting is a supernatural ability (read the definition of (Su)), thats quite easy to handle

as for maneuvers, read the maneuver in question as some of them explicitly call themselves out as being supernatural

so the answer is like

Yes you can choose maneuver BUT not the supernatural one. But then again, the factotum gain acces for this stuff just for one minute, and reading the maneuver require 1 minute. How i handle this? The factotum start with all the maneuver readied? And have the recovery from all the class he choosed? Is seriously difficult, i don't know how to handle this kind of stuff, and this will be an heavy ToB campaign. Emperor tippy, i am asking for your help

[Troacctid]

Factotums can only copy abilities that are marked as (Ex) in the text description for a class. While maneuvers are (Ex), the class ability that grants them is not marked as (Ex), (Sp), or (Su), making it a natural ability, not an extraordinary ability.


Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like.

So you cannot gain an initiator's maneuvers with Cunning Brilliance.

[eggynack]

This is an ancient and highly problematic problem, and I don't think it has much in the way of a clear resolution. It's not even just a silly factotum thing, as the way you label those unlabeled abilities has a lot of ramifications for other tricks of various kinds. I'm mostly just hoping the argument doesn't span for dozens of pages this time, though I'm not counting on it. My advice is to just do whatever you think is right. I'd say that you should be consistent with it, making all unlabeled abilities either extraordinary or natural, but that might not even be the best way. It's probably the simplest way though. One interesting way to go could be putting casting in natural or something, because having it as extraordinary is borked as all hell, and sticking everything else in extraordinary. Doing this stuff on a case by case basis could work also, but it seems really onerous to me.

[kaffalidjmah]

Factotums can only copy abilities that are marked as (Ex) in the text description for a class. While maneuvers are (Ex), the class ability that grants them is not marked as (Ex), (Sp), or (Su), making it a natural ability, not an extraordinary ability.



So you cannot gain an initiator's maneuvers with Cunning Brilliance.


This is an ancient and highly problematic problem, and I don't think it has much in the way of a clear resolution. It's not even just a silly factotum thing, as the way you label those unlabeled abilities has a lot of ramifications for other tricks of various kinds. I'm mostly just hoping the argument doesn't span for dozens of pages this time, though I'm not counting on it. My advice is to just do whatever you think is right. I'd say that you should be consistent with it, making all unlabeled abilities either extraordinary or natural, but that might not even be the best way. It's probably the simplest way though. One interesting way to go could be putting casting in natural or something, because having it as extraordinary is borked as all hell, and sticking everything else in extraordinary. Doing this stuff on a case by case basis could work also, but it seems really onerous to me.

thank for the answers. the factotum is one of hell class if played smartly, and both of you give me some advice of how to use it. for now, i stick with troacctid and say no when asking me for maneuver-like. than, case by case

[Rubik]

as spellcasting is a supernatural ability (read the definition of (Su)), thats quite easy to handleIt is not. Any unmarked ability is either (Ex) or (Na), with the latter being a function of a creature's physiology.

So spellcasting is (Ex).

It's not (Su) anyway, otherwise it wouldn't be subject to Concentration checks, interruption via damage, or SR.

[Chronos]

Personally, I think that the simplest resolution to the spellcasting question is to say that spellcasting is a spell-like ability. It's got some extra details to it, but then again, so does a warlock's invocations, which are also spell-like.

On the matter of maneuvers, I refer to the quote from the Cunning Brilliance ability:

Each ability must be available to a standard character class at 15th level or lower, and must appear on the advancement table or in the text description for that class.
I would interpret the "must appear on the table or in the text" requirement to rule out Tome of Battle maneuvers, as well as the Bonus Feats ability of the fighter: No maneuver actually appears in the warblade, crusader, or swordsage entry, and no feat appears in the fighter entry, so there's no maneuver or feat you can gain.

At least, I think that that's what that clause means. But it's really not worded very clearly.

[EyethatBinds]

I'd allow the Factorum to choose spellcasting. The downside is that the player would have to follow all rules of that casting. So for sorcerers, bye-bye armor, wizards you'll need a spellbook, clerics you'll need to fit their alignment and have a patron deity to pray to, and bard spells require you to be chaotic. You get the idea.

All non-prepared spells also require 15 minutes of meditation, so the Factorum wouldn't be able to pull it out at a moment's notice.

[Troacctid]

Doesn't the Factotum only get the ability for 1 minute? That's not enough time to prepare spells.

[EyethatBinds]

Doesn't the Factotum only get the ability for 1 minute? That's not enough time to prepare spells.

Seems that combined with the SRD/PHB's statement on Bards and Sorcerers is pretty concrete.
"Each day, sorcerers and bards must focus their minds on the task of casting their spells. A sorcerer or bard needs 8 hours of rest (just like a wizard), after which he spends 15 minutes concentrating. (A bard must sing, recite, or play an instrument of some kind while concentrating.) During this period, the sorcerer or bard readies his mind to cast his daily allotment of spells. Without such a period to refresh himself, the character does not regain the spell slots he used up the day before. "

So a factorum cannot cast spells as an extraordinary ability. Oh well. And if the player says that they haven't used their previous day's allotment of spells, just let them know they have to refresh empty spell slots prior to using them if they've just gained them. It's a DM call, but I'd say a pretty fair one.

[Flickerdart]

I would interpret the "must appear on the table or in the text" requirement to rule out Tome of Battle maneuvers, as well as the Bonus Feats ability of the fighter: No maneuver actually appears in the warblade, crusader, or swordsage entry, and no feat appears in the fighter entry, so there's no maneuver or feat you can gain.
The ability to gain and use maneuvers/feats is what appears in the table. This is what the factotum gets.

[sleepyphoenixx]

The problem with making spellcasting (ex) or (su) is that you can then also gain full cleric/sorcerer/bard casting by using Shapeshift, Metamorphic Transfer, Enhance Wild Shape, the Master of Many Forms extraordinary wild shape ability, Planar Shepherds outsider wild shape, Master Transmogrifist and several other options, and those options have enough time to prepare spells.

It has been discussed/argued over many times with no satisfactory conclusion on either side, but the fact is that if you do allow it you'll only make some of the classes who are already at the top even more powerful.

[eggynack]

The problem with making spellcasting (ex) or (su) is that you can then also gain full cleric/sorcerer/bard casting by using Shapeshift, Metamorphic Transfer, Enhance Wild Shape, the Master of Many Forms extraordinary wild shape ability, Planar Shepherds outsider wild shape, Master Transmogrifist and several other options, and those options have enough time to prepare spells.

It has been discussed/argued over many times with no satisfactory conclusion on either side, but the fact is that if you do allow it you'll only make some of the classes who are already at the top even more powerful.
True. Spell-likes might be among the hardest to pick up with abilities, which inclines me to agree with Chronos, even if it makes virtually no sense by RAW.

[sleepyphoenixx]

True. Spell-likes might be among the hardest to pick up with abilities, which inclines me to agree with Chronos, even if it makes virtually no sense by RAW.
I just rule it as "none of them". There's no reason why it should have one of those types, and plenty of reasons to define it as "something else".
Spell-likes may be harder, but they're not impossible to pick up either. And no one should pick up full casting progression in a different class that easily.

[kaffalidjmah]

Personally, I think that the simplest resolution to the spellcasting question is to say that spellcasting is a spell-like ability. It's got some extra details to it, but then again, so does a warlock's invocations, which are also spell-like.

On the matter of maneuvers, I refer to the quote from the Cunning Brilliance ability:

I would interpret the "must appear on the table or in the text" requirement to rule out Tome of Battle maneuvers, as well as the Bonus Feats ability of the fighter: No maneuver actually appears in the warblade, crusader, or swordsage entry, and no feat appears in the fighter entry, so there's no maneuver or feat you can gain.

At least, I think that that's what that clause means. But it's really not worded very clearly.

your analisys is nice, i have the player in question read it and he agreed. Then he have seen your skillmonkey guide. You have made a person very happy, he LOVE making skill monkey and your guide is perfect. I don't think he wanna go with 19 level factotum, the original problem should have resolved. Most probably i will have a super skill monkey to deal with it

-go in a corner and start crying-

Thanks for the help :)

[Rubik]

Factorum"Factorum"? What's that?

[Chronos]

A factorum is "do a bagel".

flickerdart, I can't say that what you say doesn't make sense, but in that case, just what do they mean by that line about "must appear in the table or text"? What else could that possibly mean? Where else would a class ability appear but in the class text or table?

[Flickerdart]

A factorum is "do a bagel".

flickerdart, I can't say that what you say doesn't make sense, but in that case, just what do they mean by that line about "must appear in the table or text"? What else could that possibly mean? Where else would a class ability appear but in the class text or table?
There are rare instances of abilities (commonly found in items intended for certain classes) that say things like "clerics can XX" or "divine casters can YY" that the factotum would be unable to emulate. I think they were just trying to cover their asses in case people started trying to rules lawyer weird off-handed mentions of classes in other places.

[atemu1234]

This is an ancient and highly problematic problem
ancient and highly problematic problem
highly problematic problem
problematic problem

This makes my internal grammar nazi sad.

[eggynack]

This makes my internal grammar nazi sad.
Feh. It's grammatical. Just somewhat redundant. I actually rather like the construction of it, though I suppose I could have gone with something like intractable. However, what's the point in understanding the building blocks of language if you can't use that understanding to screw around with them on occasion? As long as the core meaning of a sentence isn't obfuscated, which is a thing that can occur if you break some of the actually important rules, then I figure that everything is hunky dory. Point is, problematic problem is way more fun to say than intractable problem, even if the latter hews closer to some arbitrary standard of language.

[Chronos]

"Problematic problem" also doesn't mean the same thing as "intractable problem". An intractable problem can't be solved. A problematic problem might be solvable, but it's difficult.

[Bakkan]

A factorum is "do a bagel".



You have made this Latin-loving mathematician smile.

[Curmudgeon]

It is not. Any unmarked ability is either (Ex) or (Na), with the latter being a function of a creature's physiology.
That's not in accord with the rules.
Natural Abilities: This category includes abilities a creature has because of its physical nature, such as a bird’s ability to fly. Natural abilities are those not otherwise designated as extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like. Natural abilities include physiology-based features, but are not defined as exclusive to that category.

[Necroticplague]

No, he can't select spells. He can only emulate (ex) abilities. Spellcasting is a natural ability (since its not labelled). And even if he did, he'd have to take the time to renew/prepare his spells, by which time his ability would have run out.

Same for Maneuvers. Except maneuvers also has a problem by which the ability to use maneuvers and the ability to ready them are different abilities. And both of them aren't (EX), instead being natural abilities.

So this simply flat-out doesn't work on one level, and would be useless on another.