two rocs vs three wyverns; any bets on the wyverns?

[Occasional Sage]

Rocs (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/roc) hit 95% of the time (+18 vs AC 19). Wyverns (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/dragons/wyvern), 45% (+10 vs AC 22).

Rocs save vs wyvern venom 90% of the time (DC 17, Fort +14), so ignore poisoning outright 81% of the time. It *is* CON poison, but still.

Three wyverns deal roughly the same average damage per round as one roc with the above accuracies, discounting poison.

HP are roughly equal: 219 for the wyverns, 240 for the rocs.

Both have grappling abilities, which the wyverns can't use against larger foes. The rocs could certainly use them effectively once the first wyvern is dropped.

With an inferior Fly speed, what chance to the wyverns have? I can't see how they'd be able to drop even one of the rocs, much less both.

[Snowbluff]

Full attacks might not be possible, so the poison might edge out in the longer fight. It's such a random ability that it could have a verge large or small effect.

I'd like to point out that Wyverns are dumb, but they aren't animal dumb. They may be able to figure something out.

[Renen]

If wyverns focus on one rock, poison it, and then switch to the other, they might have a chance. But its mostly about luck.

[Erik Vale]

Wyverns are int 7, that means they're inteligent.
*Checks*
Rocs however, are not.

Now, if you were a dragon and were about to take on a foe that you might win against in a 3-1 fight but are taking 3-2 odds, what would you do?

*Takes another look, including ecology*
They may also use their greater inteligence to lure the Roc into fights with other animals first, weakening them.
An ambush situation could be set up, with one as distraction [they have stealth ranks, but worse than the Roc's perception, so distance modifiers are key]. For example, be bait in such a manner that they chase, then your buddies charge from an area.
They could poison their wing claws pre-combat for some bonus poison attempts.

[Eldan]

The wyverns are also considerably smaller, so they might try to hide in caves or forests.

[Knaight]

With an inferior Fly speed, what chance to the wyverns have? I can't see how they'd be able to drop even one of the rocs, much less both.

That's not surprising. Two Roc are CR 11, 3 wyverns are a CR 8-9, which makes the expected even fight 6 wyverns by CR. The poison also doesn't help much, as the roc save on a 4.

So the wyverns are going to need a real edge. I see a few things that might help them:

The ground speeds are equal. In a ground fight, the wyvern aren't at such a disadvantage.
The wyverns have dark vision, the roc only have low light vision.
The wyvern are smaller, and can fit in tighter spaces.


If the wyvern are on offense, their best bet is attacking at night. The Roc do have pretty good perception (+15), but circumstances can easily offset that, and the wyvern have surprisingly good stealth (+7). If they can go for a rainy, windy, moonless night, the chances start looking far better, particularly as it just buys time for the poison to work, which it desperately needs with the Roc fort save against it.

On defense, tight caverns are where it's at. The wyvern can easily move where the Roc can't very well, and can potentially gang up 3 on 1 twice in a row, while benefiting from the cover of darkness. This bumps the wyvern hit rate to 65% (-2 Roc AC from blinded, -2 Roc AC from no dex), and kicks the Roc hit rate down to 47.5% if they even target the right square. That alone might make up the difference. I don't know the rules for squeezing into excessively tight areas off the top of my head, but they might help yet further.

[Eldan]

When squeezing, you move at half speed, with a -4 to hit and a -4 to AC. If a Roc is ever stupid enough to try that, it's probably dead.

Could the Wyverns try something like dropping nets on a Roc to entangle it?

[Occasional Sage]

Assuming the rocs are the aggressors then, I'm feeling pretty good about placing money on them.

In our current scenario, the rocs and wyverns have lived rather near one anothers' nest and have all left well enough alone. Our PCs have nudged the rocs into initiating hostilities, likely resulting in an ambush. That limits the wyverns' ability to play to their intelligence.

[Spore]

Does poison DC stacking work when the target is hit and saves its DC? If yes then the wyverns just have to gang up on one roc and push the DC. They still have to be lucky since the Roc can grapple a single wyvern while still attacking the third one with their beaks. Unless the wyverns get a surprise round on the rocs, they rocs straight out win.

The main problem is Wyverns have +10 on their attacks vs. AC 22 while the Roc has +18 on AC 19.

[Eldan]

Assuming the rocs are the aggressors then, I'm feeling pretty good about placing money on them.

In our current scenario, the rocs and wyverns have lived rather near one anothers' nest and have all left well enough alone. Our PCs have nudged the rocs into initiating hostilities, likely resulting in an ambush. That limits the wyverns' ability to play to their intelligence.

The Wyverns, though, would likely nest in a place that is to their advantage. Dragons are mentioned to often lair in caves, I don't see why this should be different for wyverns.

So, I'm thinking absolutely dark cave with a narrow entrance. They don't have proper hands, as such, but I think with their intelligence and just using their mouths, claws and feet, like a bird would, they could potentially rig a simple trap.

So, they are only really in danger if they go out to hunt or forage. Have them only come out at night and they should be relatively safe.

[Occasional Sage]

The Wyverns, though, would likely nest in a place that is to their advantage. Dragons are mentioned to often lair in caves, I don't see why this should be different for wyverns.

So, I'm thinking absolutely dark cave with a narrow entrance. They don't have proper hands, as such, but I think with their intelligence and just using their mouths, claws and feet, like a bird would, they could potentially rig a simple trap.

So, they are only really in danger if they go out to hunt or forage. Have them only come out at night and they should be relatively safe.

Rocs have low-light vision though, which treats moonlight as normal daytime. It's only indoors that the wyverns can press a vision advantage.

Also, the idea of wyvern trap-makers is fantastic. The trio does have a cave in a sheer cliff-face, but interior details are unknown.

[Eldan]

Hm. Anything with ropes or any kind of mechanism is probably out, they just can't build that. But just a simple rockfall should be possible.

[Feint's End]

They have a 90% to save vs the poison not 85%.

I can't see the wyverns winning this without more of them.

[Occasional Sage]

They have a 90% to save vs the poison not 85%.

I can't see the wyverns winning this without more of them.

Um, yes. Editing first post now.

Thanks for catching that.

[Knaight]

Rocs have low-light vision though, which treats moonlight as normal daytime. It's only indoors that the wyverns can press a vision advantage.

Caves certainly qualify here, better than just about any building. Moonless nights also work, though with the rocs as aggressors that's not particularly viable, seeing as one can't retreat to a different day where the night is moonless.

Still, leveraging darkvision and wyverns being smaller, it looks pretty viable. Initially we have:
Roc: AC 22, +18 Attack (+17 for the bite)
Wyvern: AC 19, +10 Attack (+5 for the wings).

Between blinded and tight spaces, we get:
Roc: AC 14, +14 Attack, 50% miss chance.
40% chance of talon hits (2*2d6+9), 37.5% chance of bite (2d8+9).
Wyvern: AC 19, +10 Attack
85% chance of sting and bite (1d6+4, 2d6+4), 60% chance of wings (2*1d6+2).

We can also get three wyverns ganging up against one roc, then the other roc. Average damage is pretty easy to calculate; it's getting late enough here that I'm just eyeballing it. Even without poison, the numbers clearly favor the wyverns. Attrition complicates things a bit on their end, so it might be worth doing actual calculations, but I'd be betting on the wyverns under those circumstances.