My 3.5 Wizard feels underpowered...

[arishardin]

So I've always wanted to play a Wizard in 3.5 because I've frequently heard how powerful they are. We are level three and I am playing my wizard as a domain conjuration wizard. I took spell focus conjuration, I'm a human. I took Imp Initiative and Obtain Familiar as my other feats. (I took the acf abrupt jaunt in place of my familiar).

So, I've heard that trying to prepare evocation spells and blast everything in sight is the wrong way to play a Wizard from the guides that more experienced wizard player have written. Controlling the battle is a more effective way to play the wizard. Although, what I've found so far is that most of the conjuration spells that D&D players speak so highly of such as web or grease or glitter dust almost ALWAYS get negated by passed saving throws...

Am I doing this all wrong? Am I not grasping what I'm supposed to be doing here? I feel like I cast spell after spell that my enemies just walk through while laughing and hacking down my fellow compatriots... Web seems alright sometimes because it's so big and gives cover, but usually enemies never loose the save...

[Milodiah]

The issue is you're level three. Most magic users take time to cultivate their abilities. Linear warriors, quadratic wizards, you know.

[With a box]

So I've always wanted to play a Wizard in 3.5 because I've frequently heard how powerful they are. We are level three and I am playing my wizard as a domain conjuration wizard. I took spell focus conjuration, I'm a human. I took Imp Initiative and Obtain Familiar as my other feats. (I took the acf abrupt jaunt in place of my familiar).

So, I've heard that trying to prepare evocation spells and blast everything in sight is the wrong way to play a Wizard from the guides that more experienced wizard player have written. Controlling the battle is a more effective way to play the wizard. Although, what I've found so far is that most of the conjuration spells that D&D players speak so highly of such as web or grease or glitter dust almost ALWAYS get negated by passed saving throws...

Am I doing this all wrong? Am I not grasping what I'm supposed to be doing here? I feel like I cast spell after spell that my enemies just walk through while laughing and hacking down my fellow compatriots... Web seems alright sometimes because it's so big and gives cover, but usually enemies never loose the save...

Did you targeted right(weak save of enemy) save?
Rouges are likely to make reflex save easily
and there are some no-save-just-suck spell are there
and buffs
and ranged touch attack rays

[Crake]

So I've always wanted to play a Wizard in 3.5 because I've frequently heard how powerful they are. We are level three and I am playing my wizard as a domain conjuration wizard. I took spell focus conjuration, I'm a human. I took Imp Initiative and Obtain Familiar as my other feats. (I took the acf abrupt jaunt in place of my familiar).

So, I've heard that trying to prepare evocation spells and blast everything in sight is the wrong way to play a Wizard from the guides that more experienced wizard player have written. Controlling the battle is a more effective way to play the wizard. Although, what I've found so far is that most of the conjuration spells that D&D players speak so highly of such as web or grease or glitter dust almost ALWAYS get negated by passed saving throws...

Am I doing this all wrong? Am I not grasping what I'm supposed to be doing here? I feel like I cast spell after spell that my enemies just walk through while laughing and hacking down my fellow compatriots... Web seems alright sometimes because it's so big and gives cover, but usually enemies never loose the save...

Even if enemies pass the save on web, they still cant move through it without making absurd strength checks. Since enemies will be moving so slowly through it, you can focus them one at a time as they make their way through it, just be careful not to burn it down with fire. As for grease and glitterdust, enemies standing on grease are flat footed unless they have 5 or more ranks in balance, due to the rule about balancing creatures being flat footed, so that would allow your friends to hit them easier, and let the rogue get sneak attack.

Glitterdust is very hit and miss, when it works, it's great, when it doesn't it's useless, same with color spray. But unless your DM is fudging rolls, then you should be hitting at least 1/2 of your enemies with it.

I got through the first 3 levels on my beguiler almost completely using color spray, it's such a huge low level spell, and can change the tide of entire battles, not just small scale skirmishes.

But if your DM is fudging rolls because he doesn't like his monsters being completely incapacitated, which ok, I kinda get it, it sucks when your challenge is just completely goofed over by some save or suck spells, but that's what it's like being DM. Some DMs just fudge rolls to stop that from happening to their monsters, i've seen it happen more than enough. You may need to gauge whether your DM is being legit about his rolls or not, or whether your DM is the kind of DM who just wants hit point damage to be the extent of how encounters function.

If your DM is the latter kind of DM by the way, direct him to 5th edition, he will likely enjoy that more, magic got a huge nerf, and combat is almost entirely about hit points

[jedipotter]

Am I doing this all wrong? ..

Not ''wrong'' exactly....

First off, level three is ''weak''......you don't get real power until 6-7+

But after that....it kinda depends on the ''style'' you want. You do have more then the Core spells right?

[Troacctid]

Wizards dominate the high levels. It's the initiators who are overpowered at the low levels.

[JDL]

At level 1-5 you will probably play very much like a non-spellcasting class. Get a light crossbow and a few dozen bolts and shoot the bad guys in the face. At this level the difference between your BAB and the BSF (Big Stupid Fighter) is at most 3 points. It's not enough to make a big statistical difference, and aside from your lower hit points there's not too much else stopping you from getting into melee and giving your allies a flanking bonus.

Your spells should focus on longer lasting defensive abilities and things that make the party function better as a group. Enlarge Person is a great level 1 spell to pop on your BSF and can last long enough to finish a few encounters inside a dungeon. Glitterdust is best used on enemies with low Will saves, Blindness for those with low Fort saves. If you really want to pop out some evocation damage, a True Strike followed by a Scorching Ray will give you 95% guaranteed 4d6 fire damage, but at the cost of 2 spells and 2 rounds of combat, you're probably better off using Grease and giving your BSF Bull's Strength instead.

That's not to say a Wizard can't optimize for godlike power at this level. An Elven Generalist Wizard with the Otherworldly feat at level 3 can Alter Self into a Minor Xorn and use Mage Armor to achieve 27 AC and attack for +4 in melee, dealing 2d8+2 bite damage and 3 1d3+1 claws. There's nothing with an appropriate CR that could touch that kind of AC, and you've only used two spells to achieve it, without even considering adding extras like Shield, Protection from X, Mirror Image and the like. Just bear in mind that at low levels, a Wizard is not going to have the kind of versatility that makes them the gods of mid to high level play. Their power is their ability to have a silver bullet for every encounter, but when you have only low level spells that's not gonna happen.

[Deophaun]

If your enemies are always making their saving throws against grease and glitterdust and you're low level, something has gone wrong. Glitterdust should be removing packs of wolves fights and grease should take out the enemy's BSF. I've never much liked web, although that's because I've fought too much in wide open spaces for it to be useful (lack of anchor points). It's all about hitting enemies where they're weakest.

Don't confine yourself only to conjuration spells. Ray of clumsiness can be used to help your grease stick, in addition to being a great debuff on its own. Don't forget enlarge person, expeditious retreat, and ray of enfeeblement. If you're level 3, you can pick up dragoneye rune, which is a campaign-altering spell provided you're doing something more than hacking and slashing. There's alter self which can get you flight early, or a swim speed, or the ability to run around with a base speed of 60ft. Invisibility gives your party an awesome scout. Ray of stupidity will take out anything with animal-level intelligence, no matter how big it is. Dark way gives you an unbreakable wall. Heroics will make you question why you bothered to pick up Improved Initiative. Don't pass up silent image as a means of battlefield control, either. As long as you limit its manifestation to something insubstantial, such as a wall of green smoke or a swirl of floating embers, you can make it difficult for anyone to even think of disbelieving it.

Evocation is not that terrible if you need it, either. Scorching ray is decent, but it really only shines when you start throwing metamagic on it. Shatter, however, is a gem of a spell. Use it on buckles. Use it on chains. Use it on ropes. Use it on locks.

Finally, if you're a conjuror, are allowed non-core spells, and do not have benign transposition on your spell list, then you are doing it wrong. :smallbiggrin:

Edi: Forgot, pick up Cloudy Conjuration from Complete Mage. It's basically a single-target +2 to the save DCs of your Conjuration spells.

[Feint's End]

A lot of responses here seem to miss a big part of the information in the original post (all but Deophaun and Crake tbh). It seems to me that this is not a case of the Wizard being underpowered or "weak". In fact he is playing one of the most effective low level builds without going into very high op.

The issue seems to be that the enemies are making their saves too often and/or spells not used fully (as has been mentioned web even has very good cc without failing the save). Both of those (the first more than the second) have to do with the dm so I'd talk to him/her and ask why your saves are failing that often. Is there some fudging involved?
It is quite common at least for inexperienced dms to sometimes fall into bad habits and one of those can be fudging sadly.
The reason for this might be that the dm is playing another game where hp damage is the only way to resolve damage.

These are of course just guesses but it seems like your group might still be quite inexperienced and you are the first/only one who is trying to play the smart gameplay.

To sum it up the answer is "TTYDM" talk to your dungeonmaster.

[eggynack]

Indeed, the enemies always making their saves seems like either DM trickery or bad luck, rather than any fundamental problem with your build. It would be similarly likely for your fighter friend to nearly always miss on their attacks, I think. I mean, your save DC on a web should be something like a 17. Looking through the first ten entries in the SRD alphabetically with a CR of 2, the odds are 80%, 80%, 80%, 50%, 70% (though teleportation makes this less useful), 60%, 60%, 60%, 45% (+teleportation), and finally 65%. In other words, I think you should be hitting more than half the time, and that doesn't seem to be happening, so something weird is occurring. This is obviously way more true if you're hitting multiple opponents, and that's a thing you can do. Even a third level rogue with a 20 in dexterity should only be saving 40% of the time, which again seems to be not what's happening.

As was also noted though, it seems odd that this would matter. Web doesn't care all that much if the enemy saves, because they're pretty trapped either way. Similarly, glitterdust always applies its invisibility and hide negating effect, and grease always forces continual balance checks and reflex saves, helping out the rogue and forcing enemy placement. You can benefit a lot from things like that, relying more on spells which have their effects no matter how the enemy rolls. Enlarge person will always do its thing, as will all of your buffs, and silent image has some effects that are difficult for the enemy to get their interaction roll against. Long story short, a 3rd level wizard should already be doing very well, if not yet dominating, and odd things seem to be happening to make the opposite the case.

[DMVerdandi]

Also, if you want to blast a little bit, rather than having a crossbow or some physical weapon, Pick up a reserve feat. Fiery blast is pretty decent.
Now you can actually do damage after you Debuff if you need to.

It's not necessarily "optimized", but what it will do is keep you feeling magical all day. Which is necessary when you are playing a mage, right?

[StreamOfTheSky]

A lot of responses here seem to miss a big part of the information in the original post (all but Deophaun and Crake tbh). It seems to me that this is not a case of the Wizard being underpowered or "weak". In fact he is playing one of the most effective low level builds without going into very high op.

The issue seems to be that the enemies are making their saves too often and/or spells not used fully (as has been mentioned web even has very good cc without failing the save). Both of those (the first more than the second) have to do with the dm so I'd talk to him/her and ask why your saves are failing that often. Is there some fudging involved?
It is quite common at least for inexperienced dms to sometimes fall into bad habits and one of those can be fudging sadly.
The reason for this might be that the dm is playing another game where hp damage is the only way to resolve damage.

These are of course just guesses but it seems like your group might still be quite inexperienced and you are the first/only one who is trying to play the smart gameplay.

To sum it up the answer is "TTYDM" talk to your dungeonmaster.

This. Wizards, especially Abrupt Jaunt Conjurors spamming the low level GOD spells, are absolutely not "weak" at level 3, they're overpowered even then. Web and to a lesser extent grease work just fine even if the foe(s) save, and all the spells should be targeting enemy weak saves if you have any sense for what they'd be (knowledge skill investment is nice to ID monsters). Sounds like it's just bad luck or DM cheating.

OP should also realize that when the spells do work, he's not going to be "scoring the kills," either. GOD Wizards render the opposition practically helpless and let the big stupid fighter mop up.

[arishardin]

I appreciate everyone's feed back on this, first of all.

Second, I'd like to clear up a few things so people understand the situation a little better...
My DM never fudges rolls... He rolls them directly in front of us where we can see it or else I wouldn't even sit at the table. But yeah, I can see where this would be a concern if he were.

What I think is happening here is that I'm just having bad luck and he is rolling well against my spells and I've yet to see their full power. I'm not saying I've been completely useless, I just haven't felt as useful as I thought I would be and I started to get a little skeptical and needed some reassurance... So where else to go than the Giantitp forums? Am I right? :D

Anyway, I saw mention that I might be the only player actually trying to build my character in a slightly optimal way, and yes, I would have to agree that it's true. Most of the other players I've sat at the table with in any game I've ever played pretty much built their characters as they went based on what looked "good" at that point in time without much consideration for what was a closer to optimal choice based on what they had already taken so far. I usually try to step in and guide them down a less wasteful path, but it's not fun building everyone else's character for them while I'm over here trying to play my own.

In the past I have made a pretty nasty melee cleric using DMM: Persist combined with as many turn attempts I could muster(slight limitation actually) to great effect. This Wizard business just looses me... With my Cleric I was trying to build something that could basically carry the party by being powerful enough to deal with all the problems without seeming like I was killing everything before anyone else could touch it. And maybe that class is a better suited one for this kind of job based on the buffs it provides making everyone feel like they are carrying some weight. I've just played it out and want to play a Wizard to the same or similar effect. ANY suggestions are welcome.

Cloudy Conjuration sounds like a winner...
I would love to find a list of optimal spells with spell level and book origin if at all possible... I NEED it... haha

[Endarire]

Does your GM use dice or/and roll in such a way as to favor his success? I had a GM who understood how to roll d20s to tremendously favor him. I switched to things that didn't require him to roll against me, like telekinesis, buffs, summons, and rays.

[Heliomance]

Cloudy Conjuration sounds like a winner...
I would love to find a list of optimal spells with spell level and book origin if at all possible... I NEED it... haha

Google "treantmonk God's tools". You'll find a series of threads on the old Wizards forums, one for each school of magic, listing some of the best spells, and some of the biggest traps.

[Bronk]

Second, I'd like to clear up a few things so people understand the situation a little better...
My DM never fudges rolls... He rolls them directly in front of us where we can see it or else I wouldn't even sit at the table. But yeah, I can see where this would be a concern if he were.

I was recently in a game where a few of us who were using spells realized there was a problem similar to this. For us, it was because the DM had us make 3.5 characters but got confused and used the 4.0 rules for saves.

Best I could tell, instead of a static number that you beat, 4.0 uses an opposed roll and adds 10 to that, meaning the NPCs always saved and the PCs always failed. It was a mess, but we straightened it out after a couple of games.

Long story short, it could be that he or she is rolling in the open but messing up the math in his or her head.

[atemu1234]

Invest in spells that don't allow a save; if you can Mage Armor and Shield yourself you can wield that crossbow with the best of them. Magic Missile also springs to mind as a useful low-level spell. Not to mention that things like goblins tend to have low-ish hit points to go with low levels, so you could quite possibly have some power with cantrips like Acid Splash.

[ericgrau]

It is because you are level 3. Grease and glitterdust are fairly mediocre at your level too, because yes foes save. Try this:
0: daze x 3, detect magic, whatever
1 (4): color spray, burning hands, shocking grasp, mage armor if about to go into a dungeon or ray of enfeeblement otherwise
2 (3): web, flaming sphere, 2nd flaming sphere or 2nd web or levitate.

Scrolls: 1x alarm, 1x hold portal, 2x protection from evil, 1x shield, 1x obscuring mist, 2x magic weapon, 2x enlarge person if any party melee, 2x unseen servant

The nice thing about web is that even if foe does save it takes some time to get out. And it has a large area so it can hit multiple foes. It combos well with flaming sphere too, or flaming sphere is good on its own at level 3. Plus that gives you one good multi-target spell and one good single target spell. Levitate is great for rescuing allies or yourself, or for overcoming many dungeon challenges. It's not good for taking out foes but it's very versatile. If you fight humanoids then daze is at least better than a crossbow. At level 1 you likewise have color spray and burning hands for 2+ foes and ray of enfeeblement for taking big bad single targets down to size. If your dex is poor or if allied melee get in the way you might want to skip it and get magic missile instead. Weak, but at least it hits reliably as a backup tactic when nothing else works well. Since you have a familiar share a shocking grasp with it well ahead of time so that round one it can shock a foe for free damage and then you can cast something else. At your level it's often a free kill.

Scrolls are for utility, buffing rounds and emergencies. If you get buffing rounds nearly every fight then you might prepare a buff or two instead. Otherwise don't sweat blowing 25 gp without hesitation. Even without using any restraint it'll still only be 1-6 times a session. Replace scrolls as needed and stock up on a greater variety and quantity as you get more money. Note that if you cast a buff or utility while your familiar is holding a shocking grasp it loses the spell. Plan ahead if possible or perhaps prepare two shocking grasps.

There aren't many conjuration spells on that list but soon you'll get sleet storm and solid fog which are both amazing. And get zero benefit from spell focus. And web doesn't need it that badly. Spell focus conjuration may have been a bad choice. Likewise burning hands, color spray and flaming sphere won't get used at higher level. Damage will become less important except for fireball, while the great battlefield control spells come online.

[Feint's End]

I have a question. If they are almost always passing the saves (again this doesn't really matter for web but it's an issue) and the dm is rolling in the open how close are those rolls to the dcs of your spells?

Because fudging can also be applied to the stats of your enemies (which I guess you don't see). Let's assume they would fail the save by 1 but your dm decides it shouldn't affect them so the opponents saves get raised.
This might generally be a thing ... above average saves for their level. It might also be you having a very low intelligence (how high is it?).

Another one might be unbalanced dice (a lot of dice actually are even if they people being are unaware).

[ericgrau]

It's not that uncommon at low level for them to pass saves 40% of the time, and more than that on foes that matter and wouldn't be one shotted by damage. The thing is even if it's not quite the majority of the time, a passed save and a wasted turn is really annoying. Especially when it happens twice in a row and you say "What did I do that fight?"

[Milodiah]

I remember that my first time DMing I screwed up saves versus magic; I seem to recall doing caster level instead of spell level in the DC calculation, so you could imagine how obscene the save wound up being against the first BBEG who I'd built as level 10.

You may just want to double-check that it's being done properly, just because I think that's something that gets screwed up sometimes.

[arishardin]

Okay, again, I want to thank everyone fro their input on this... I have come to what seems to be a conclusion on my Wizard, but I will submit it to the board here for approval and maybe some critique.

So far this is where my Wizard is going:

Int: 18
Con: 16
Dex: 16

Specialization: Domain Wizard(Conjuration)

ACF: Immediate Magic(Conjuration): Abrupt Jaunt

Feat progression(Just a note: I like using free metamagic stuff but this is just what I saw with at least a little value. It seems that Wizards aren't as reliant on their feats for power/optimization as other classes such as a Cleric):
Human- Obtain Familiar(Got my raven back to transport those free damage touch spells for me!)
1st- Improved Initiative(I don't mind being first I guess...)
3rd- Spell Focus(Conjuration)(This is mainly for prerequisite purpose)
5th- Metamagic School Focus(Conjuration)
6th- Sculpt Spell
9th- Extend Spell
10th- Spell Focus(Transmutation)
12th- Metamagic School Focus(Transmutation)
15th- Craft Rod
15th- I don't really know from here.

Spells at 4th Level(These are the spells I have chosen to learn up until this point):

1st- Color Spray, Burning Hands, Shocking Grasp, Ray of Enfeeblement, Grease, Enlarge Person, Wall of Smoke, Shield, Ray of Clumsiness, Mage Armor(I didn't actually have to learn MA since my domain provides it.)

2nd- Flaming Sphere, Scorching Ray, Levitate, Seeking Ray, Web(the same for Web; my domain provides it.)

With my Domain ACF I automatically have 2x Mage Armor and 2x Web prepared outside of my normally prepared spell list of four 1st level and three 2nd level spells prepared.

I will make a note of one thing that worries me: The rays as far as I know usually require a ranged touch attack and so I'm worried that as I get higher in level that I may begin to miss on these rolls a lot therefore making my spells I have chosen useless. So is this something I should build around or ignore? Also, any suggestions to what I have planned so far are very welcome. Please make me change it to something better... I mean, I do have to carry a rogue, a ranger, and a healer through dungeon after dungeon... They literally know nothing other than, YEAH LET'S RUN IN AN ATTACK... Especially the brat rogue. He knows nothing of planning or taking a moment to stop and rest. As long as someone tops his life total off for him, he cares for no one else's readiness or willingness to address the next encounter. I have cute day dreams of blasting his face off sometimes when he talks.

[eggynack]

You definitely shouldn't worry much about the success of your rays in future levels. Touch AC doesn't really scale at all, and actually trends a bit downward on monsters because you leave behind the smaller and lither enemies for big hulking beasts. As some examples, look at the balor with 35 AC and 16 touch AC, or the tarrasque with 35 AC and 5 touch AC. It's a number that can be boosted with some work, but not every enemy is going to do that work.

As for your spell list, some are good but some are decidedly mediocre. Your blasting spells, particularly burning hands, shocking grasp, and flaming sphere, aren't all that useful, though your rays are decent. I'm not really sure what scorching ray is doing over seeking at this level, however. Levitate is in something of the same boat, quality-wise. If you're not preparing these spells, then that's fine, but if you are, consider replacing them with stuff like silent image, alter self, and maybe mirror image over shield if you have the slots.

[ericgrau]

I wouldn't worry about rays hitting at high level. I'd worry about them hitting at low level. You're going to have to hit a flat 11 touch at low level. At high level it might sometimes be lower than 11, or go up to maybe 14. So as your BAB scales it'll get easier and easier. I'm not sure if scorching ray will be all that great unless you can hit an 11 pretty reliably and your allies aren't in the way. Foes get +4 AC to your foe if an ally is in melee with it, unless you have precise shot. And an additional +4 if someone is standing between you and the foe. That's why even ray of enfeeblement was iffy, though it is nice for debuffing lone big bads. Especially when empowered.

I suggested burning hands and shocking grasp because while they will be sucktastic later on, at level 3 they will 1 shot kill one or multiple foes. And even if they save, burning hands still partly hurts foes. Also works well against a foe who is just about to escape a web, for bonus no save web fire damage. Sometimes you get a +3 on your shocking grasp attack roll, and it has no save. Plus it can be shared with his familiar for a free round 1 attack. Plus abrupt jaunt means he's pretty safe in melee. Flaming sphere is likewise good damage over time if you cast it early in the fight, and will often result in a kill by itself. And combos with web. In a couple levels you of course drop these like the plague now that you have real spells, i.e. 3rd level spells, and now that foes have more hp. Though shocking grasp might still be so-so to share with your familiar if you don't have a better touch spell to give him.

A 4 man level 3 party facing 4 CR 1 foes faces an EL 5 or difficult fight. The average CR 1 foe has 12 HP which is about 3d6 to 4d6. A less challenging and more routine fight may have CR 1/2 foes with 7 HP which is about 2d6. Or it may be more weaker foes, less stronger foes, or a mix. At level 5 facing 4 CR 3 foes it jumps to 27 HP. The OP at the time of his original build and playgrounders may be confused because the usual forum wisdom fails at level 3. OP: Once you hit level 5 or so it's time to switch away from damage and more towards battlefield control, mass buffs/debuffs, etc. Not much damage unless you have no choice. Though fireball is still ok against multiple foes until SR and energy resistance appear around level 8-12. Single target damage not so much. At best they're backup spells for when others won't work.