Does caster level increase for PrC's beyond 5/10, when adding a '+1 level' PrC?

[Madhava]

My question is specific to PrC's with their own casting progression table (Assassin, etc.).

Example 1: If one were to take Trapsmith 1, followed by Swiftblade 10, then spells-per-day would cap-out at Swiftblade 6... but would caster level continue to improve (to caster level 7 @ Swiftblade 10)? Or do all spell progression benefits end at caster level 5, simply because a regular Trapsmith would end here?

Example 2: Divine Crusader 10 with Contemplative 1, would this be caster level 10 or 11? And if the former is true, would caster level 11 kick-in at level 21 (since epic levels for 10-level PrC's are a thing)?

I'm hoping to find some kind of answer supported by RAW, or official FAQ, if it exists. And if it does exist, then my search-fu is weak!

Thank you all.

[SiuiS]

Yes. Caster level is not tied to your maximum spells know or anything. It's the level of the class(es) which give you casting.

You could use a +1 caster level class on a paladin (caps at four levels of spells) as well as a cleric, and she continues to gain caster level even if there are no more levels of spells to learn.

[rockdeworld]

No. The tables in the class description provide the upper limit on casting progression/level, and prestige classes advancing caster level don't override that.

Generally equal to the number of class levels (see below) in a spellcasting class.

When a new [prestige class] level is gained, the character gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable) as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that she adds the level of [prestige class] to the level of some other spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly.
Emphasis mine. The second quote came from the Loremaster description.

So if PrC A has it's own casting, and PrC Z advances casting, the bold parts mean:
1. You add your levels in Z to your levels in A
2. That number is your caster level for class A, unless:
a. it's higher than the max class levels of A
b. A has special rules regarding caster level, eg. Paladin caster level is equal to class level / 2.

For your examples:
1. They end at 5, for the reason you stated.
2. CL 10. And Yes.

For spellcasters, caster level continues to increase after 20th level.
Edit: That quote also means that the Trapsmith would gain CL after level 20, as would any other class (in other words, the above answer changes from "no" to "yes" after level 20).

That's my understanding barring any Rules Compendium errata, with sources drawn from the srd.

[Renen]

So what happens in the following scenario then:
I have a PrC with 10 lvls of its own casting (PrC a). I take 1 lvl and then take 9 in one that progresses this casting (PrC b). Then I take one more level in the PrC a again?

[Urpriest]

No. The tables in the class description provide the upper limit on casting progression/level, and prestige classes advancing caster level don't override that.


Emphasis mine. The second quote came from the Loremaster description.

So if PrC A has it's own casting, and PrC Z advances casting, the bold parts mean:
1. You add your levels in Z to your levels in A
2. That number is your caster level for class A, unless:
a. it's higher than the max class levels of A
b. A has special rules regarding caster level, eg. Paladin caster level is equal to class level / 2.

For your examples:
1. They end at 5, for the reason you stated.
2. CL 10. And Yes.

Edit: That quote also means that the Trapsmith would gain CL after level 20, as would any other class (in other words, the above answer changes from "no" to "yes" after level 20).

That's my understanding barring any Rules Compendium errata, with sources drawn from the srd.

I think there is plenty of room in those quotes for the other interpretation, actually. The procedure, as stated, is that you add your PrC level to the level of the class it's progressing to determine spells per day, spells known, and caster level.

Say you're a Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10. Following the rules you quoted to the letter, you calculate your caster level as if you were a Trapsmith 7. While there is no such thing as Trapsmith 7, if there were we would be able to calculate its caster level: as your first quote indicates, it would have caster level 7. We would not be able to calculate its spells known or spells per day, so those are fixed to Trapsmith 5 levels.

Essentially, even though Trapsmith 7 does not exist, we still can calculate its caster level, so a Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10 should still have caster level 7.

[AvatarVecna]

Say you're a Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10. Following the rules you quoted to the letter, you calculate your caster level as if you were a Trapsmith 7. While there is no such thing as Trapsmith 7, if there were we would be able to calculate its caster level: as your first quote indicates, it would have caster level 7. We would not be able to calculate its spells known or spells per day, so those are fixed to Trapsmith 5 levels.

Essentially, even though Trapsmith 7 does not exist, we still can calculate its caster level, so a Trapsmith 1/Swiftblade 10 should still have caster level 7.

Bolded for emphasis. Going purely by RAW, you would indeed cast as a 7th level Trapsmith would cast. That said, by RAW, Trapsmith is a 5 level PrC, and gains no additional casting beyond what it's capable of at Trapsmith 5.

Now, most class features (including spellcasting) advance according to formulaic patterns that players can figure out. If you could deduce Trapsmith's casting pattern, and your DM allowed it, you could continue advancing Trapsmith in this fashion...but doing it that way wouldn't be following RAW.

To see why something like this would be easily broken, compare to the Ur-Priest PrC: it would be totally broken to allow other PrCs to advance its casting beyond Ur-Priest 10, especially pre-epic. Advancing caster level, sure, there's tons of precedent for allowing them to advance caster level. But the actual PrC-gained casting should be left alone beyond the existing levels, both to adhere to RAW and to avoid this kind of cheesy mess.

Honestly, in the case of Trapsmith, I can't see too many DMs reflexively rejecting this. It seems it would be easier to ask for the DM to handwave it than it would be for you to hunt down a way to achieve this by RAW,

[Urpriest]

Bolded for emphasis. Going purely by RAW, you would indeed cast as a 7th level Trapsmith would cast. That said, by RAW, Trapsmith is a 5 level PrC, and gains no additional casting beyond what it's capable of at Trapsmith 5.

Now, most class features (including spellcasting) advance according to formulaic patterns that players can figure out. If you could deduce Trapsmith's casting pattern, and your DM allowed it, you could continue advancing Trapsmith in this fashion...but doing it that way wouldn't be following RAW.

To see why something like this would be easily broken, compare to the Ur-Priest PrC: it would be totally broken to allow other PrCs to advance its casting beyond Ur-Priest 10, especially pre-epic. Advancing caster level, sure, there's tons of precedent for allowing them to advance caster level. But the actual PrC-gained casting should be left alone beyond the existing levels, both to adhere to RAW and to avoid this kind of cheesy mess.

Honestly, in the case of Trapsmith, I can't see too many DMs reflexively rejecting this. It seems it would be easier to ask for the DM to handwave it than it would be for you to hunt down a way to achieve this by RAW,

There's a difference between recognizable patterns and explicit ones, though. Even if you recognize that Trapsmith gains X spell slots per Y levels, there is nothing in the RAW that tells you that that pattern would continue for a Trapsmith 7. On the other hand, the RAW explicitly sets caster level equal to class level, so if there were Trapsmith 7s we already have explicit instructions for how to calculate their caster level.

[SiuiS]

Interesting. Urpriest, you're counting "+1 caster level" PrCs as additional base levels, yes?

I always thought it was clear that caster level was a power metric almost completely detached from class or spell level. But going through all the stuff in the books to check? Nah.

[Urpriest]

Interesting. Urpriest, you're counting "+1 caster level" PrCs as additional base levels, yes?

I always thought it was clear that caster level was a power metric almost completely detached from class or spell level. But going through all the stuff in the books to check? Nah.

The link only goes one direction. So class level generates caster level (according to the quotes in this thread, and in other places), which is then modified by other things, but caster level doesn't itself affect spellcaster level or the like.

[Khedrac]

It's also worth noting that with prestige classes, those with less than 10 levels explicitly do not have progressions beyond that, and those of 10 (or more) levels only progress once you reach epic. This means that you cannot cast "as a Trapsmith 7" - you can cast "as a Trapsmith 5 but at caster level 7" - as Urpriest says.

Note - this is also why the common trick of using legacy champion to extend Hellfire Warlock's bonus eldritch blast damage does not work - there is not additional dice for "as HfW 4" since there is no HfW 4.

[A_S]

It's also worth noting that with prestige classes, those with less than 10 levels explicitly do not have progressions beyond that, and those of 10 (or more) levels only progress once you reach epic. This means that you cannot cast "as a Trapsmith 7" - you can cast "as a Trapsmith 5 but at caster level 7" - as Urpriest says.

Note - this is also why the common trick of using legacy champion to extend Hellfire Warlock's bonus eldritch blast damage does not work - there is not additional dice for "as HfW 4" since there is no HfW 4.
The HfW advancement trick depends on exactly the same kind of reasoning Urpriest is describing for advancing Trapsmith casting. You wouldn't gain an ability that you get at certain levels (say, Sneak Attack), because those levels don't exist. But since the damage on your Hellfire Blast is explicitly given as a formula based on your class level, we have, as Urpriest put it above, "explicit instructions for how to calculate" that damage, just like we do for caster level.


A hellfire blast deals your normal eldritch blast damage plus an extra 2d6 points of damage per class level.

I'd say if you can cast as a Trapsmith 7, you can super-advance HfW.