Ki/level Imbalanced

[Easy_Lee]

I think the Ki system in 5e is imbalanced. Being able to bonus action dodge or land a stunning strike is equally useful at all levels, but monks get only a small few Ki to use at early levels. High-Ki-cost abilities could be imbalanced at low levels, but they aren't available until high levels. Compare this to rogues, who can sneak attack and cunning action all they want.

I'm considering a house rule to set Ki progression to 10+(level/2), rounded down; 20 at 20 and 10 at 1. What do you guys think?

[Z3ro]

The main problem is stunning; that much ki at low levels means monks can lock down multiple encounters easily. The simplest solution is probably let the dodge and dash bonus actions be ki free; they're competing with martial arts, after all, and that doesn't cost ki to use.

[Easy_Lee]

The main problem is stunning; that much ki at low levels means monks can lock down multiple encounters easily. The simplest solution is probably let the dodge and dash bonus actions be ki free; they're competing with martial arts, after all, and that doesn't cost ki to use.

Seems to me that's an equal problem at all levels, though, not just low. But I'm unsure. I'll have to run some tests. Does anyone know a good source for "standard" encounters at various levels?

[Feldarove]

Seems to me that's an equal problem at all levels, though, not just low. But I'm unsure. I'll have to run some tests. Does anyone know a good source for "standard" encounters at various levels?

For encounters....the DMG should provide that in one of its million tables.

Rogues are OP, just get over that to start.

While they have cunning action and it allows them to stabbedy stab and gtfo all over the place....that's really the only tactic. A smart DM can plan around that if the rogue just constantly does it.

But dodging is awesome. It needs to use up ki, and being able to do it a lot (or all the time) at early levels is, imo, too powerful.

Once stunning fist gets online, like another poster said, you can't have your monk stun locking all your encounters...

I think the ki is decently balanced as is. If you wanted to boost it slightly, say they gain additional ki = wisdom modifier.

[CrusaderJoe]

Set up a table for the monk's stunning fist.

CR 0 or Lower = 0 Ki

CR 1 - 5 = 1 Ki

CR 6 - 10 = 2 Ki

CR 11 - 15 = 3 Ki

CR 16 - 20 = 4 Ki

CR 21+ = 5 Ki

Then you can increase the number of Ki the monk gains without having the at-will stun lock against higher level creatures. However with this if you have a bunch of low CR creatures then your monk can stun all she wants... She is just that awesome. Of course the monk may be killing those creatures... But if not then they are stunned.

[Amnoriath]

1. The problem with that is it makes dipping even more optimal.
2. Let us also consider what this means for a 3rd Shadow Monk being able to cast its abilities more times than a 20th level Warlock with Pact Magic.
3. This also means Flurry can better consistently out damage a lot of builds at that level.

[Feldarove]

Set up a table for the monk's stunning fist.

CR 0 or Lower = 0 Ki


do you mean <CR1

[CrusaderJoe]

1. The problem with that is it makes dipping even more optimal.
2. Let us also consider what this means for a 3rd Shadow Monk being able to cast its abilities more times than a 20th level Warlock with Pact Magic.
3. This also means Flurry can better consistently out damage a lot of builds at that level.

So for once monks are top tier?

The warlock has way more versatility than the monk. The monk gets cantrips compared to what the warlock gains.

But the answer isn't monk versus warlock but perhaps resource management versus reward.

[silveralen]

I think the Ki system in 5e is imbalanced. Being able to bonus action dodge or land a stunning strike is equally useful at all levels, but monks get only a small few Ki to use at early levels. High-Ki-cost abilities could be imbalanced at low levels, but they aren't available until high levels. Compare this to rogues, who can sneak attack and cunning action all they want.

I'm considering a house rule to set Ki progression to 10+(level/2), rounded down; 20 at 20 and 10 at 1. What do you guys think?

I certainly don't think they need to be able to dodge or attack three time in a round 10 times per short rest at lvl 1. That's absurdly broken. Like... how does that seem balanced? It's out of line with what anyone can do at that level. He is out damaging an action surging fighter when he uses flurry of blows.

Rogue sneak attack isn't beating either honestly. At lvl one, a rogue is dealing 11 damage (1d8+1d6+ability bonus) while a monk's martial arts is hitting for 13 (1d8+1d4+ 2*ability bonus). If the rogue uses two short swords instead of a rapier, he is barely beating the monk by half a point of damage on average.

By level four the monk is at 15 (assume he boosts dexterity) and the rogue is at 18 for base damage each round. By level 6 monk is at 24.5 damage at will, the rogue is 21.5, by level 8, 27.5 vs 25, and and at lvl 10 rogue can leapfrog by going up to 28.5 damage, though at this point the monk has enough ki to be flurrying fairly often and his unarmed damage scales slightly as well.

Monk doesn't need to flurry to match rogues sneak attack, his martial arts matches rogue's sneak attack damage roughly. Rogue can't dodge as a bonus action, so I don't see how cunning action requires that. Make dashing as a bonus action not cost ki maybe, but that's all.

I have no idea why you made the comparisons you did. A lvl 1 monk shouldn't be flurrying 10 times per short rest. No no no.

Have you even run a monk? They aren't weak at low levels at all.

[Easy_Lee]

Many seem to have missed my core point, so I'll restate it here. I'm not talking about whether monks are strong or weak. I'm not trying to say this or that class is better or worse. What I'm saying is that Ki is equally useful at atl levels.

At level 2, one point of Ki yields one bonus action dodge, dash, flurry, or a stunning strike. At level 20, the monk has the exact same options and more. So why can a level 20 monk do those things 20x as often?

Compare that to warlocks, who go from 1 to 4 spells/short rest. That's a much more reasonable progression, and it's similar to normal spell progression. Monks start with a pathetic amount of Ki which becomes slightly less pathetic at 5 and reasonable at 10. By 20, their Ki levels are absurd, but so is everyone else by then.

None have explained how 10 dodges/rest is broken at 1 but not at 10. The action is equally useful at all levels. The same is true of flurry and stunning strike, which produce one extra attack and one stun respectively. Since both of those things scale with level, a level 10's flurry or stun are already better than a level 1's, since the DC and hit dice are higher. I don't see how it makes sense that level 10's get 10x as many uses of those scaling abilities. It means a level 10 monk compares to a level 10 fighter far better than a level 1 monk compares to a level 1 fighter.

I think starting with 10 and going from there grants options. Stunning someone for 10 rounds is equally useful at all levels. Damage scales, as do DCs and proficient saves, so it's not like fights last significantly longer at high levels. Starting with 5 is also something I might consider. But 1 point is not very useful.

[CrusaderJoe]

Many seem to have missed my core point, so I'll restate it here. I'm not talking about whether monks are strong or weak. I'm not trying to say this or that class is better or worse. What I'm saying is that Ki is equally useful at atl levels.

At level 2, one point of Ki yields one bonus action dodge, dash, flurry, or a stunning strike. At level 20, the monk has the exact same options and more. So why can a level 20 monk do those things 20x as often?

Compare that to warlocks, who go from 1 to 4 spells/short rest. That's a much more reasonable progression, and it's similar to normal spell progression. Monks start with a pathetic amount of Ki which becomes slightly less pathetic at 5 and reasonable at 10. By 20, their Ki levels are absurd, but so is everyone else by then.

None have explained how 10 dodges/rest is broken at 1 but not at 10. The action is equally useful at all levels. The same is true of flurry and stunning strike, which produce one extra attack and one stun respectively. Since both of those things scale with level, a level 10's flurry or stun are already better than a level 1's. I don't see how it makes sense that level 10's get 10x as many uses of those scales abilities. It means a level 10 monk compares to a level 10 fighter far better than a level 1 monk compares to a level 1 fighter.

I think starting with 10 and going from there grants options. Stunning someone for 10 rounds is equally useful at all levels. Damage scales, as do DCs and proficient saves, so it's not like fights last significantly longer at high levels. Starting with 5 is also something I might consider. But 1 point is not very useful.


The way I see it is that most monk abilities are rather Meh when you put a ki cost to them and people tend to not use them. Who the hell is using their ki to dodge or dash? Those are so weak compared to everything else you can do with ki.

I think the Monk could have been made without ki and things would be better. Make a pool specifically for the good stuff (stunning and some spells) and leave all the cantrip level stuff alone.

Slow Fall and Deflect Missiles show that having cool and interesting options is possible and you don't need a resource management system for them. I would put both of them as cantrip-1st level spell in power and yet they are on a reaction based system. I would have ki to allow you to take a second reaction (since you get 1) so that you can be cool and catch an arrow while falling. Giving an additional reaction is worth a ki point or two but some of the things just aren't worth the ki.

And that is the problem. Some abilities just aren't worth ki and some are worth more ki. So small things seem crazy when you add more ki but the big things aren't as big cause you don't have enough ki.

[archaeo]

None have explained how 10 dodges/rest is broken at 1 but not at 10.

Frankly, I'm not sure what you're saying. Why would three attacks be broken at 5 but not at 15? Why are level 3 spells broken at 1 but not at 5?

I don't really see the Monk as starving for features, since my read of the class makes it seem like you're routinely getting substantial upgrades across levels 1-20. And your options for using Ki become far more numerous as you gain levels. Maybe I'm just dense and not seeing your point?

---------

edited to add:


I think the Monk could have been made without ki and things would be better. Make a pool specifically for the good stuff (stunning and some spells) and leave all the cantrip level stuff alone.

I mean, the things Monks do with Ki are very definitely the sort of things all non-Rogues have to spend resources to do; freely dodging and cartwheeling around the battlefield is kind of Rogue's schtick. To stack on bonus damage, do bonus dodges, and other junk like that, you expect casters to expend spells, Battle Masters to expect dice, and so on and so forth. Seems pretty on par for the expectation of class resource allotment.

[Iolo Morganwg]

AFB right now, but would ten ki at level one or two make the Shadow Monk cast five-ish spells per short rest?

[CrusaderJoe]

AFB right now, but would ten ki at level one or two make the Shadow Monk cast five-ish spells per short rest?

No. You become a shadow monk at level 3.

Edit

Also the spells you do get are quite good for what you want to do but the only two battle spells are darkness and silence which needs terrain and can hurt your allies just as well.

Level 6's shadow jump doesn't even use ki!

Level 11's cloak of shadow uses no ki!

So the ki for a shadow monk is fueling the low level spells. Warlocks can cast some of these at-will...

[Person_Man]

Since it is restored with a Short Rest, I think Ki scales fine. At low levels you're using it in boss fights to Dodge or Stun or Flurry. At high levels you have enough to use some in every combat, and you get some additional options. (Of course, my group tends to get 1-2 Short Rests per game day plus one Long Rest. If your group doesn't Rest as often, I could see why its a problem). The only imbalance I see is that every non-full caster gets very few big/interesting options at high levels compared to full casters. So I would add more Ki stuff that's not already covered by spells at high levels, to give Monks a broader range of options.

[silveralen]

Many seem to have missed my core point, so I'll restate it here. I'm not talking about whether monks are strong or weak. I'm not trying to say this or that class is better or worse. What I'm saying is that Ki is equally useful at atl levels.

At level 2, one point of Ki yields one bonus action dodge, dash, flurry, or a stunning strike. At level 20, the monk has the exact same options and more. So why can a level 20 monk do those things 20x as often?

Compare that to warlocks, who go from 1 to 4 spells/short rest. That's a much more reasonable progression, and it's similar to normal spell progression. Monks start with a pathetic amount of Ki which becomes slightly less pathetic at 5 and reasonable at 10. By 20, their Ki levels are absurd, but so is everyone else by then.

None have explained how 10 dodges/rest is broken at 1 but not at 10. The action is equally useful at all levels. The same is true of flurry and stunning strike, which produce one extra attack and one stun respectively. Since both of those things scale with level, a level 10's flurry or stun are already better than a level 1's, since the DC and hit dice are higher. I don't see how it makes sense that level 10's get 10x as many uses of those scaling abilities. It means a level 10 monk compares to a level 10 fighter far better than a level 1 monk compares to a level 1 fighter.

I think starting with 10 and going from there grants options. Stunning someone for 10 rounds is equally useful at all levels. Damage scales, as do DCs and proficient saves, so it's not like fights last significantly longer at high levels. Starting with 5 is also something I might consider. But 1 point is not very useful.

Why do casters start with 2 spells per day and end up with 25ish?

No, all abilities are not equally useful at all levels. At lvl 1 flurry of blows can out damage any other character hands down, by lvl 20 it is going to be giving the monk a slight boost, or possibly none at all if the party member is a fighter.

Abilities scale. By lvl 1, most classes don't have many options, so giving monk 10 ki makes him much better than others. By lvl 10, most classes have an array of options, so monk having an array of options is balanced. I'm sure how that's even slightly confusing, it's the basic principle behind leveling.

At lvl 10-11, a paladin can now smite more often than he could at lvl 1, and has more powerful smites. A monk has features he lacked at lvl 1 (stunning blow for example) and can use his weaker features more often. A barbarian can rage more often and rage better by lvl 10 than he can at lvl 1. I don't understand how this is confusing in the slightest, gaining more uses of weaker abilities is a corner stone of level based systems.

[Fwiffo86]

None have explained how 10 dodges/rest is broken at 1 but not at 10.

Let me try. We aren't discussing 10 dodges/rest. Every character can dodge an unlimited number of times / rest. We are discussing 10 attacks+dodges.

You are imposing essentially adding +5 to AC (I think that's the number people came to consensus on for advantage/disadvantage average) In addition to being able to attack, where every other character has to sacrifice their attack action.

This is why it is broken at level 1. It is less so at level 10 because the options of attacks to defend against greatly outweigh and ignore the ability to dodge. Spell saves for instance, area of effects for another.

[CrusaderJoe]

Why do casters start with 2 spells per day and end up with 25ish?

No, all abilities are not equally useful at all levels. At lvl 1 flurry of blows can out damage any other character hands down, by lvl 20 it is going to be giving the monk a slight boost, or possibly none at all if the party member is a fighter.

Abilities scale. By lvl 1, most classes don't have many options, so giving monk 10 ki makes him much better than others. By lvl 10, most classes have an array of options, so monk having an array of options is balanced. I'm sure how that's even slightly confusing, it's the basic principle behind leveling.

Wait, are you counting it as a negative that one class can out damage it?

I call that a win if you are in the top 3 or whatever.

The fighter has to optimize a lot more to hit that damage potential (and needs magic weapons) whereas the monk does not.

Abilities do scale, I like scaling abilities, however what we have here is non-scaling abilities with a resource mechanic that scales.

Dodge doesn't scale, dash doesn't scale, many of the other monk abilities (that aren't directly spells) don't scale (open hand pushing or tripping). You can just use them more times per day as you level.

That isn't scaling abilities, that is scaling resource mechanics. The fighter's second wind scales both with the number of times it can be used (resource mechanics) and how well it heals (ability scaling) based on level. It sucks, but it foes scale. Most of the monk's abilities don't scale, just their resource mechanic does.

[CrusaderJoe]

Let me try. We aren't discussing 10 dodges/rest. Every character can dodge an unlimited number of times / rest. We are discussing 10 attacks+dodges.

You are imposing essentially adding +5 to AC (I think that's the number people came to consensus on for advantage/disadvantage average) In addition to being able to attack, where every other character has to sacrifice their attack action.

This is why it is broken at level 1. It is less so at level 10 because the options of attacks to defend against greatly outweigh and ignore the ability to dodge. Spell saves for instance, area of effects for another.

But you are giving up using ki, bonus action, and more damage by dodging and doing 1 attack per round. Even with bonus action dodge you are giving up a lot if you made it ki-less.

The wizard has 8 hours or whatever of mage armor. That's a net of what, +3 to AC, by giving up 1 action. I think ki-less dodge BA dodge gives up way more for a monk than Mage armor will for the wizard. Especially as you go up in level.

Now, if dodge scaled with level... It would be worth a ki.

Why not make all monk abilities work off the slow fall or deflect arrows mechanic. I might know my next homebrew...

[archaeo]

(Of course, my group tends to get 1-2 Short Rests per game day plus one Long Rest. If your group doesn't Rest as often, I could see why its a problem).

As a point of order, the DMG specifically says that you should be averaging about 2 short rests per day. The system's expectation seems to be that, every 2-3 combats, you get a short rest.


The only imbalance I see is that every non-full caster gets very few big/interesting options at high levels compared to full casters. So I would add more Ki stuff that's not already covered by spells at high levels, to give Monks a broader range of options.

I don't know, I think Monk is a poor class to point that out in; at high levels, they can start doing some really cool things. It's also a choice you make advisedly at first level, which doesn't bum me out. My level 20 Monk isn't going to be left in the dust by a level 20 Wizard, I just won't be spending as much time hovering over my character sheet making decisions about spells and whatnot nearly as much.

[CrusaderJoe]

[QUOTE=Person_Man;18616784](Of course, my group tends to get 1-2 Short Rests per game day plus one Long Rest. If your group doesn't Rest as often, I could see why its a problem).

As a point of order, the DMG specifically says that you should be averaging about 2 short rests per day. The system's expectation seems to be that, every 2-3 combats, you get a short rest.



I don't know, I think Monk is a poor class to point that out in; at high levels, they can start doing some really cool things. It's also a choice you make advisedly at first level, which doesn't bum me out. My level 20 Monk isn't going to be left in the dust by a level 20 Wizard, I just won't be spending as much time hovering over my character sheet making decisions about spells and whatnot nearly as much.


I think the point wasn't that the monk can't keep up, just that the monk doesn't get their own interesting options. They pretty much piggy back a lot of other things onto themselves and don't bring a lot of new things to the table.

Also, how many DMs actually go with 1-2 short rests per game? And how many players trust a perfectly defensible room? So far I've seen way to many games go with no short rests or only 1 short rests because of DM ignorance or Player Paranoia.

[Amnoriath]

So for once monks are top tier?

The warlock has way more versatility than the monk. The monk gets cantrips compared to what the warlock gains.

But the answer isn't monk versus warlock but perhaps resource management versus reward.

In which at the same level a Warlock casts once and its versatility doesn't show very well since its invocations are either bonuses to one attack or proficiencies. All in all the options actually match the same since Shadow Monk gets 3 spells plus the other 4 options at that level. The point is it is an egregious oversight of spamming at low levels in which it becomes too good especially since they are all 2nd level spells or out classes other martials in damage and mobility. Versatility is only good if you actually can use it more than once.

[archaeo]

I think the point wasn't that the monk can't keep up, just that the monk doesn't get their own interesting options. They pretty much piggy back a lot of other things onto themselves and don't bring a lot of new things to the table.

What do you mean, "new things"? Monk sure looks like it's printed before Wizard in the class guide. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, while I can appreciate the desire to have one's "own interesting options," I can just as easily see things from the designers' perspective. The "piggy back" effect holds true across all classes -- the full casters definitely have a fair share of overlap, after all -- and seems largely based around the idea that something being "supernatural but not a spell" is not justification in and of itself to add complexity to the game.

I would submit that the level 20 Monk is going to be fun to play in a totally different way than the level 20 Wizard, and I'm cool with that. You should be too; if they were just fun to play in the same way, we could make Person_Man way happier by just getting rid of classes altogether.


Also, how many DMs actually go with 1-2 short rests per game? And how many players trust a perfectly defensible room? So far I've seen way to many games go with no short rests or only 1 short rests because of DM ignorance or Player Paranoia.

Seems like the kind of thing that will shake out as people get more familiar with the system. It's still brand new, after all! It's also nice to consider moving to the heroic resting model, if people end up getting really stingy with resources and the game suffers because of it.

[CrusaderJoe]

What do you mean, "new things"? Monk sure looks like it's printed before Wizard in the class guide. :smallbiggrin:

But seriously, while I can appreciate the desire to have one's "own interesting options," I can just as easily see things from the designers' perspective. The "piggy back" effect holds true across all classes -- the full casters definitely have a fair share of overlap, after all -- and seems largely based around the idea that something being "supernatural but not a spell" is not justification in and of itself to add complexity to the game.

I would submit that the level 20 Monk is going to be fun to play in a totally different way than the level 20 Wizard, and I'm cool with that. You should be too; if they were just fun to play in the same way, we could make Person_Man way happier by just getting rid of classes altogether.



Seems like the kind of thing that will shake out as people get more familiar with the system. It's still brand new, after all! It's also nice to consider moving to the heroic resting model, if people end up getting really stingy with resources and the game suffers because of it.

You are changing the point. It isn't the monk isn't fun to play. It is that they don't have their own interesting and awesome abilities.

It may shake out that way but for now, and possibly later, so many people get shafted on short rests it isn't even funny. This is due to both sides of the DM screen and no one person or side is at fault. This could have been fixed though by making a better refresh mechanic than "hey it's time to rest".

[Easy_Lee]

This thread has derailed a bit, but I like the direction it's going. Honestly, I think I see what the problem is. Ki for stunning strikes or bonus dodge is one thing, regardless of whether I like the scaling (monk isn't the only class that doesn't really come online until 5 or 6). But having to spend it on basic stuff, like slow fall or dash, is silly. I suspect my house rule will just be to allow those things for free.


Some may think that's too good, since casters have to spend spell slots to do similar things. Trouble is, casters can spend spell slots to do almost anything. Monks can only use Ki points to do a small few things, so it makes sense that, like sorcerers, they get more frequent or more powerful versions of those things they can do.

Why is rogue lockpicking better than knock? Because it doesn't take a spell slot and is quiet. I'd apply the same mentality when balancing mundane spell-likes against casters.

Edit: real quick, just to nip this short rest thing in the bud, I give my players as many short rests as I suspect they need, so long as they can reasonably find a place to rest. I feel that limiting to one short rest a day is unfair to many classes, monks and warlocks most of all. If I was in a game with a DM who did that, then I would play a wizard or rogue and proceed to **** all over the campaign. Two can play that game.

[Amnoriath]

Why is rogue lockpicking better than knock? Because it doesn't take a spell slot and is quiet. I'd apply the same mentality when balancing mundane spell-likes against casters.


I know this is being very selective but a Thief can explicitly do this as a bonus action.

[silveralen]

This thread has derailed a bit, but I like the direction it's going. Honestly, I think I see what the problem is. Ki for stunning strikes or bonus dodge is one thing, regardless of whether I like the scaling (monk isn't the only class that doesn't really come online until 5 or 6). But having to spend it on basic stuff, like slow fall or dash, is silly. I suspect my house rule will just be to allow those things for free.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me. I've yet to see a monk burn ki to dash at table, giving up your bonus action alone is plenty of cost. Disengage is probably safe to allow for free as well, I've seen people use it at table but lately they've decided it is easier to just absorb the damage. I actually think action economy hurts the disengage action worse than the ki cost, as you give up at least one attack, possibly two, as a monk.

Slow fall doesn't cost ki as is, though I agree it would be silly if it did (the fact it doesn't, nor do a lot of other later monk abilities, makes the dash/disengage issue even weirder by comparison).

[Ghost Nappa]

Again, you could always create some sort of feature where successfully hitting an opponent regenerates some amount of Ki in battle.
As I understood it, one of the problems Monk has it that doesn't have a way of regenerating Ki in battle.

Here's an example based off of a mechanic from the Tales series.

As an example:

Battle Energy Flow
Prerequisite: Monk Level 5 (because it needs Extra Attack)
If you use successfully hit with four attacks - against any number of targets - on your turn, you regenerate 1 Ki point.
This improves to 2 Ki Points at Level 20.


In theory, this gives Monks extra incentive to go after easy to hit targets irrespective of damage: it makes Flurrying free. It also helps buff that mediocre capstone somewhat.

[Fwiffo86]

In theory, this gives Monks extra incentive to go after easy to hit targets irrespective of damage: it makes Flurrying free. It also helps buff that mediocre capstone somewhat.

Why does the monk need to flurry for free? You are hijacking the main reason for fighters, and often, eclipsing them for most levels. It costs Ki for this very reason.

Capstone:
how to make the monk and bard resource regeneration OP. Roll initiative every round, not once per combat.

[CrusaderJoe]

Why does the monk need to flurry for free? You are hijacking the main reason for fighters, and often, eclipsing them for most levels. It costs Ki for this very reason.

Capstone:
how to make the monk and bard resource regeneration OP. Roll initiative every round, not once per combat.

Really the answer here is to give the fighter cool things and not just moar attacks and damage (sigh, such wasted potential).

[Fwiffo86]

Really the answer here is to give the fighter cool things and not just moar attacks and damage (sigh, such wasted potential).

Isn't making flurry free the same thing? After all, you're granting the monk 2 additional attacks per round. More attacks. More damage. Fiddling with the fighter doesn't do a thing for perceived Ki issues.

[Ghost Nappa]

Why does the monk need to flurry for free? You are hijacking the main reason for fighters, and often, eclipsing them for most levels. It costs Ki for this very reason.

Capstone:
how to make the monk and bard resource regeneration OP. Roll initiative every round, not once per combat.


Really the answer here is to give the fighter cool things and not just moar attacks and damage (sigh, such wasted potential).


The Monk is not flurrying for free...100% of the time.

The Fighter should absolutely get something like it too if you make this change, but it doesn't already have a guaranteed built-in resource management system which makes it a bit harder.

(Nor is this thread on the Fighter....but....You could just as easily rephrase it for the Battlemaster (regain 1 maneuver) and Eldritch Knight (regain lowest level spell slot) but the Champion needs his own little thing for it, and I have no idea what it could include.

Or you could make it so a Fighter regens his Action Surge if he makes four successful hits in 1 round.)

[CrusaderJoe]

Isn't making flurry free the same thing? After all, you're granting the monk 2 additional attacks per round. More attacks. More damage. Fiddling with the fighter doesn't do a thing for perceived Ki issues.

Oh yeah, but more ki gives way to more other things rather than just flurry.

Actually with more ki, the monk may not flurry as much instead of using other abilities if they are a shadow or avatar monk.

[Ashrym]

A few comments:


1) If the group doesn't follow the standard number of expected short rests per day that is their option. It's also their fault and their ability to correct. There's no need to change game rules based on behavioural choices.


2) Low level monk abilities cost ki not because they are spending ki to do the same thing other players don't pay for. It's because they already have that bonus and increase it with ki.

Ki for an extra attack is expensive compared to other classes simply getting extra attack but monks get extra attack plus a free unarmed attack plus ki for yet another attack.

Similarly, monks are not paying for the ability to dash. They pay for the ability to dash as a bonus action. They are not worse off than rogues because monks get a free movement increase for no cost and spending ki is a free movement bonus that is bigger than the rogue's bonus and a bigger base. A monk with 60 movement already is starting where rogues need to spend cunning action.

Monks are also not paying an action and ki for the equivalent of mage armor. Monks get better than that equivalent in adding WIS bonus to AC for no cost and spend KI for a big bonus plus the ability to attack when others could not.

All 3 of those options are situational and worthwhile on top of the basic class bonuses.


3) Monks are not casters. Ki progression parallels half caster spell slot progression and uses abilities modified to short rest frequency. That's why ki starts at 2nd level and progresses at it's existing rate. We're looking at a combination of battlemaster maneuvers style with increased potency of abilities similar to ranger spell progression. This becomes more evident with 5th level spell access for elemental monks at 17th level. 3rd level monks certainly do not need to get more frequent use out of their subclass abilities.

[Starsinger]

[QUOTE=archaeo;18616877]
Also, how many DMs actually go with 1-2 short rests per game? And how many players trust a perfectly defensible room? So far I've seen way to many games go with no short rests or only 1 short rests because of DM ignorance or Player Paranoia.

I give plenty of rests, and my players tend to trust rooms. What have you done to your players to engender such mistrust? :smallwink:

[CrusaderJoe]

[QUOTE=CrusaderJoe;18616891]

I give plenty of rests, and my players tend to trust rooms. What have you done to your players to engender such mistrust? :smallwink:

I actually blame forums like this. Forums like this bring out ideas of worst case scenerio DM/Players and then you get the DM ignorance/Player paranoia.

It is a nasty by product and not intentional of course.