Raptoran Rage

[RingofThorns]

Hello everyone I find my self once again with a bit of a new problem. I was invited to a new gaming group by an old DM friend of mine, the setting was his own thought up world set in 3.5 DnD. I was looking through everything and nothing was really out of the ordinary, huge cities protected by massive walls, giant primordial type forests Etc. Everything was pretty stock high fantasy type set up, so I asked what other kind of character/race combos I would be joining. Things looked pretty typical,fighters,spell casters,rogue again all standard fair for classes with some pretty non standard races. I cant recall all of them of the top of my head but I know most of them had some pretty powerful racial passives. Any way I asked the DM if I could roll up a Raptoran Druid, DM said it was perfectly fine so I rolled up my character and showed to play the game. We didnt get more then ten minutes into the game before I used my wings to make a jump since I wasnt leveled enough to full out fly yet, then one of the other players flipped out. He almost went full verbal hulk rage about how it was so game breaking BS that my character had wings and could eventually fly. Are Raptorans that broken as a race? I am kind of hoping to get a point of view from the community at large.

[Azoth]

EX flight can be a strong option to have under your belt, but far from game breaking. Raptorans are an okay race with a few niche builds that are strong, but they are far from being broken or even overly strong as a race.

[Forrestfire]

No, they're not broken. They do eventually get flight, but by the time it fully comes online, it's simple to get flight anyway. Overall, they're weaker than the strongest of the LA +0 races, and I'd probably put them in the second or third tier of starting races.

It's easy to understand why someone would think that they were overpowered, though. They break the standard mold and have more "visible" power than, say, Human (whose bonus feat makes them one of the best possible races, only eclipsed by a few who are broken. However, it's not super obvious that this is so).

[Red Fel]

Hello everyone I find my self once again with a bit of a new problem. I was invited to a new gaming group by an old DM friend of mine, the setting was his own thought up world set in 3.5 DnD. I was looking through everything and nothing was really out of the ordinary, huge cities protected by massive walls, giant primordial type forests Etc. Everything was pretty stock high fantasy type set up, so I asked what other kind of character/race combos I would be joining. Things looked pretty typical,fighters,spell casters,rogue again all standard fair for classes with some pretty non standard races. I cant recall all of them of the top of my head but I know most of them had some pretty powerful racial passives. Any way I asked the DM if I could roll up a Raptoran Druid, DM said it was perfectly fine so I rolled up my character and showed to play the game. We didnt get more then ten minutes into the game before I used my wings to make a jump since I wasnt leveled enough to full out fly yet, then one of the other players flipped out. He almost went full verbal hulk rage about how it was so game breaking BS that my character had wings and could eventually fly. Are Raptorans that broken as a race? I am kind of hoping to get a point of view from the community at large.

On the one hand, (Ex) flight is an incredibly useful and powerful thing. Admittedly, it's less impressive for a Druid, who can pretty much do it whenever they like, and more or less as soon as they get Wild Shape. But still, being able to fly under your own power, in an AMF, and in pretty much any circumstance which might require it, is always valuable. Many challenges can be altogether bypassed by flight, and an ordinary opponent can become incredibly dangerous if airborne.

That said, I do think your friend is overreacting a bit. Aside from flight, some skill checks, and +1 CL to [Air] spells (a fairly small group of spells), Raptorans don't have a lot to recommend themselves. Really, the big draw is the flight. And frankly, if Raptorans were available and it was such a big deal, your friend could have rolled a Raptoran. He chose not to, for any number of reasons; that was his call, and you made yours. Life's full of tough choices, innit?

In sum: No, Raptorans are not overpowered or broken. Their big claim to fame is (Ex) flight. Frankly, you could take any race, slap on Dragonborn with the Wings aspect and get the same result, plus other goodies, for no LA. This guy just overreacted. If it bothers him that much, reroll as a Warforged or a Necropolitan, and be immune to everything.

[atemu1234]

If it bothers him that much, reroll as a Warforged Necropolitan, and be immune to everything.

Fixed it for you.

[Troacctid]

Raptoran flight would be overpowered at level 1. It's not overpowered at level 5, and it's certainly not overpowered at level 10. As is, they're a pretty sweet race, but not more powerful than humans.

[Andezzar]

Fixed it for you.The fix does not work. Necropolitan can only be added to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Warforged are constructs.

[Forrestfire]

The fix does not work. Necropolitan can only be added to humanoids and monstrous humanoids. Warforged are constructs.

If your game includes Flaws, then you can be a warforged with the Illithid Heritage feat, setting you up to take the Human Heritage feat at the same level (because you're descended from Illithids, which are descended from humans).

Now that you're a Humanoid (Human, Living Construct), you can become a Necropolitan just fine :smallwink:

[Andezzar]

If your game includes Flaws, then you can be a warforged with the Illithid Heritage feat, setting you up to take the Human Heritage feat at the same level (because you're descended from Illithids, which are descended from humans).

Now that you're a Humanoid (Human, Living Construct), you can become a Necropolitan just fine :smallwink:Are you sure you aren't thinking about a different feat? Illithid Heritage (CPsi p. 62) only gives a bonus to certain saving throws and intimidate as a class skill.

[torrasque666]

Are you sure you aren't thinking about a different feat? Illithid Heritage (CPsi p. 62) only gives a bonus to certain saving throws and intimidate as a class skill.

True, but the fluff implies that its because you are descended from Illithids.

[Flickerdart]

Remind him that you can turn into an eagle before you gain the ability to fly from being a raptoran.

[Vhaidara]

Remind him that you can turn into an eagle before you gain the ability to fly from being a raptoran.

This guy is complaining about him using them for a bonus to Jump. He's not whining about flight. He's whining about a bonus to Jump checks

Also, predicted response: Yeah, but you had to spend 5 levels in that godawful druid class to get that, and you can't do anything useful while screwing around as a bird.

[Andezzar]

Oh that guy. I bet he thinks wizards are awful because of their d4 hit dice and poor BAB. [insert rolling eyes smilie here]

[OldTrees1]

Overpowered is always relative.

Raptorians get Ex Flight which is nice at forum OP levels. Just guessing from the information provided (Fighter, Rogue, and spellcasters. Non standard races.) but it sounds like you are using a higher OP level than the outraged player.

[Vhaidara]

Overpowered is always relative.

Raptorians get Ex Flight which is nice at forum OP levels. Just guessing from the information provided (Fighter, Rogue, and spellcasters. Non standard races.) but it sounds like you are using a higher OP level than the outraged player.

It's Ex flight for (given druid with non +Con race) up to 3 rounds at a time, up to 100 rounds/day, starting at level 5. At level 10 you do finally get it unlimited.

But again, this guy is currently raging over a +10 to Jump checks.

Wait, someone show him Thri-Kreen. Please.

[Andezzar]

True, but the fluff implies that its because you are descended from Illithids.If you argue fluff, warforged aren't descended from anyone in a biological sense. They are made and cannot reproduce. So either you won't need the feat because of the warforged human creators or it won't work.


Overpowered is always relative.

Raptorians get Ex Flight which is nice at forum OP levels. Just guessing from the information provided (Fighter, Rogue, and spellcasters. Non standard races.) but it sounds like you are using a higher OP level than the outraged player.The guy wasn't complaining about Ex Flight or even Ex Gliding, he was complaining about a +10 bonus to jump checks - on a character that doesn't even use Leap Attack.

[OldTrees1]

It's Ex flight for (given druid with non +Con race) up to 3 rounds at a time, up to 100 rounds/day, starting at level 5. At level 10 you do finally get it unlimited.

But again, this guy is currently raging over a +10 to Jump checks.

The guy wasn't complaining about Ex Flight or even Ex Gliding, he was complaining about a +10 bonus to jump checks - on a character that doesn't even use Leap Attack.



Perhaps you should show me which opening post you are reading? Let us not get so carried away picking sides that we invent things about the absent party.


He almost went full verbal hulk rage about how it was so game breaking BS that my character had wings and could eventually fly.

The OP inferred outraged player was outraged at the presence of wings and the implication of flight.

[Vhaidara]

Because here's the trigger.


I used my wings to make a jump since I wasnt leveled enough to full out fly yet, then one of the other players flipped out

[OldTrees1]

Because here's the trigger.

Listening to the outraged rant is much more informative than making assumptions from the trigger.

The trigger was getting out the wings and using them to jump.
The rant was about the presence of wings and the implication of flight.

[RingofThorns]

I went back and looked through my notes and so far according to my notes, I am at level 3, one guy is at level four because of something that happened before I got there. Then two others are at level five which is supposed to be the average level of the party, and mister hulk rage is actually a level six sword sage/ shadow hand. I am not sure how he got to six before everyone else, no one gave me a straight answer about it but I think he pulled off some really epic feat during a past session that got him extra xp.

[Vhaidara]

Wait, so the guy who is three levels above everyone else is calling you OP?

[OldTrees1]

So a ToB martial character without flight is complaining about a lower leveled spellcaster whose race gives wings and eventually flight?

While they are not entirely wrong, it does sound like Raptorian ought to be fine in that group.

[RingofThorns]

To try and help out the debate I see brewing. When the game started one of the other characters 'new' my character and had invited him to join the group to help out with some quest or another they were running. As I normally do my character was wearing a full hood and cloak, mainly because in the town where we met alot of the local thugs didnt like things that were not human. It wasnt until I had to make that one jump check to gain entrance to a locked house through an upstairs window that was open. No one else in the party had enough jump check to make it, and no one wanted to risk leaving a rope hanging from the side of the house to be spotted. So without thinking about it I just pulled off my cloak and jumped up to the window. That is when everything started.

[atemu1234]

If you argue fluff, warforged aren't descended from anyone in a biological sense. They are made and cannot reproduce. So either you won't need the feat because of the warforged human creators or it won't work.

The guy wasn't complaining about Ex Flight or even Ex Gliding, he was complaining about a +10 bonus to jump checks - on a character that doesn't even use Leap Attack.

But you can: you just have to be in some part human, like a piece of you or a drop of blood came from a human. If it works for half- templates, it'll work for this.

[Andezzar]

How does that apply to warforged? While they are partly composed of flesh, I don't remember reading that it is human flesh.

[Forrestfire]

The fact is that Illithid Heritage makes you descended from an illithid at some point, and since illithids are made from humans, there was a human somewhere in your line. Thus, you are descended from a human. The fact that Warforged aren't "born" doesn't come into it, the RAW (FAW? The distinction is muddled when a prerequisite is based on fluff) of the feats' fluff technically works :smallwink:

[Barbarian Horde]

Binder /Cloistered Cleric /Anima Mage Raptoran
This is what you want.
Take three flaws
Take skill tricks from complete scoundrel
Domains (Knowledge ,Planning, War Domain)

I agree though Raptoran race is far from broken. Want a broken race? Go with half minotaur. Get +12str level 1.

[The Viscount]

To throw in my voice to the consensus, no, Raptoran is not broken. I'm playing one right now, and the advantage of flight is really not that big. OP, remind your friend that even if you weren't a Raptoran, you could have gotten the same +10 bonus to Jump by just casting the jump spell. Hell, jump is stronger since it increases to +20 at cl 5.

Also remind your friend that as a swordsage he can eventually fly with no limit. Right now your friend could have reached the same window with dance of the spider. Your friend actually currently has access to the same jump bonus with leaping dragon stance.

[RingofThorns]

Ok, this all started a few weeks back by this point and things have gotten worse with that guy every session. According to a friend of mine that is in the same group the guy is trying to square it with the DM to kill my guy, so I was wanting to ask I know that giant eagles are a thing but is there a class a Druid can spec into that can ride them? I remember reading something about it a while back but cant recall what book it was in, I think it was a 3.5 book that wasnt wizards of the coast. Since mostly it seems A-hole guy is bound and determine to either whine and complain enough to get everyone to agree that I re roll a new character or he is going to try and off my guy himself.

[Andezzar]

I think this warrants a OOC discussion. Has there been any agreement to CVC (usually the abbreviation PVP is used but there really shouldn't be any hostility between players)? How are the other players including the DM stand on this? If you are confident that the others aren't fond of the whiner's destructive behavior either, politely but firmly tell him why his behavior doe s not work for the group and then ask him to either quit whining or leave. If the other don't agree leave yourself. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

[Darrin]

Ok, this all started a few weeks back by this point and things have gotten worse with that guy every session. According to a friend of mine that is in the same group the guy is trying to square it with the DM to kill my guy


Over a bonus to a jump check. Hmm. Good luck with that.



I was wanting to ask I know that giant eagles are a thing but is there a class a Druid can spec into that can ride them? I remember reading something about it a while back but cant recall what book it was in, I think it was a 3.5 book that wasnt wizards of the coast.


Druids can gain a Dire Eagle as an animal companion at 4th level (Races of Stone p. 187).

As far as PrCs go, there aren't any that are worth giving up levels of Druid, but Skylord (Book of Exalted Deeds) isn't too terribad: if you meditate on a mountaintop for a week, you can call a giant eagle as a mount. Half-caster progression, full BAB, but elf-only.

Zhentarim Skymage (Lords of Darkness) can get a giant eagle with just their own charisma (presumably an EEEEEVIL giant eagle), but the spell requirements (detect thoughts, invisibility, suggestion, and summon monster) are not treehugger-friendly.

Windrider (Masters of the Wild) is another "flying mount" PrC, but you have to provide the mount yourself (Warbeasts are cheap, about 75 GP per HD). Full BAB, but gets its own restricted spellcasting.



Since mostly it seems A-hole guy is bound and determine to either whine and complain enough to get everyone to agree that I re roll a new character or he is going to try and off my guy himself.

Swordsages have weak Fort saves. Introduce him to the wonders of an Extended creeping cold (you can do this at 3rd level with 100 GP of Fairy Dust, see Complete Mage p. 136). Even if he makes the save, it's six rounds of pure terror.

[Arc_knight25]

For my 2 cents, I would say leave. It's not worth the aggravation from this one guy. Maybe talk to your friend that invited you to the game and see if this is normal for this guy.

If this is how he always is and you chose not to be apart of the group you can leave nicely or burn some bridges. Killing this guys Character will certainly set him off, and if you do be sure that your stuff is already packed, slide your shades down and say, "Deal with it" as you walk away from the table, the guy freaking out will be your cool explosion as you walk calmly away.

May want to bounce the killing the players character idea off your friend first.

And we all know that Raptoran is not an OP race. Its flavourful, but not OP.

[Barbarian Horde]

Flavor for Anger

[RingofThorns]

Allright this might need to be a new thread I am not sure though so here goes.

The DM thinks that maybe we just need a change of pace for a little while to help everyone cool down over the whole stupid rage about my raptoran character. So he is wanting to do more or less a hunger games type one shot, there are going to be five player characters, plus a couple the DM is throwing in just for hazards. So just to really troll the guy that wanted to get ticked off over raptorans eventually being able to fly I asked the DM if I could make a fey'ri character. They are found in races of Faerun, they are supposed to favor being sorcerers, however I am wondering what kind of magical type class to make him, or even just a really nice class in general for the character traits they have. The game I believe is going to be around level 8.

[Andezzar]

Beware, Fey'ri can also fly - from character creation on. And they have the special snow flake syndrome. IIRC less than a hundred still exist on Faerun.

Any fey'ri caster will suffer form the LA. So instead of sorcerer I would rather take wizard, if I were to make a spellcaster (INT bonus does not hurt either).

Native Flight can be interesting, especially on a ranged attacker. Fey'ri Warlock sounds like an interesting combination.

[WeaselGuy]

Maybe the rager will take a leaf out of your book and make a flier too? Also, Fey'ri Warlock... sounds fun. My wife loved her Pixie Scout, just throwing that out there. Would probably be better as a ranged rogue, better sneak attack support than skirmish support. She also played a Pixie Sorcerer Lich for our Halloween 1 shot. It was ridiculous.

But, if I were to guess, with the premise of "Hunger Games", you'll probably be fighting other created characters, and in any fight with other characters, ranged is gonna beat melee (especially if you can keep them away from you, i.e. flight), and magic is gonna beat just about anything.

I'd play it smug, and make a Halfling Druid that abuses Natural Spell to blast people with Call Lightning while in bird form. Nothing to rage over there, it's all in core. Cause, you know, druid's are cool like that.


As an aside, one of my old table-mates (let's call him B) got a bit frustrated at the cheese me and 2 others (J and T) were bringing to the table (B played a glaive fighter, and not even a tripper. J played a Metamagic Wizard and T played a Sacred Fist. I was playing a Shadowcaster/Rogue at the time). Anywho, he said that when he had a turn behind the DM screen, he was going to play Core Only. We agreed that that was acceptable, and we proceeded to tell him that we would play a Cleric, Wizard and Druid each, respectively. My wife maintained she would play a Chain Tripper Barbarian, since someone has to find the traps. Unrelatedly, he has since left the table (His new job doesn't leave him time to play).

[RingofThorns]

I know Fey'ri can fly thats the whole reason I picked them is just to troll the guy that got ticked off about me making a raptoran. This has happened a couple times before he always complains my characters are over powered or broken just because I make a good concept after reading and re reading through books to see if it would work out. The DM said not to worry about the basic fluff since it also mentioned they had well 'breeding programs' so they could in fact have alot more numbers then what was in the book. The hater guy normally always makes the same type of character, or well murder hobo since his characters never have back story, history etc. He picks something from the book of nine swords and then picks race and weapons around it to make it as powerful as possible, I believe if I recall his bragging correctly he is making a goliath that is either iron heart, or stone dragon.

[A Tad Insane]

Even better idea:
Get a way to persist a fly spell on a race that can't fly.
???????
Profit

[RingofThorns]

Well the Hunger Games thing came and went, things went alot like was predicted. I made a Fey'ri warlock and proceded to either fly around and avoid fighting the big bruisers on the table, or just blasting them into submission. At one point I actually got hit by a trap and got grounded, well before I could slip off the guy that had been mad at me over the whole raptoran thing and another guy came across me. The rager guy was a goliath warblade stone dragon style using melee character, the fun though was that he had almost no willpower so I used the Fey'ri racial passive for charm person and had him turn on his friend and one shot him with a massive crit. Well rager was not surprisingly angry saying that had been a cheap cheater move, the guy that had been cleaved in twain though thought it was funny as hell. Any way the rager wound up finally getting blasted to death though it took forever, he got up throwing a fit, the DM who normally doesnt mind thing like player rivalries and other in game type things finally told the rager that it was getting out of control. He needed to leave and see if he could get a handle on it or he wasnt welcome back, still waiting to see how that turns out. Anyway I thought I had it in the bag except the only other guy left was some kind of deep wood sniper, or order of the bow character, after a big bout of trading shots the guy landed a massive crit with arrows that gave him +2 damage. I lost by getting sniped right at the end. However the DM has expressed interest in seeing me play another character like him in the future, so things could get interesting.