+20 ability score vs gestalt

[maniacalmojo]

A Dm wants to start a high powered game and have everyone roll their stats and THEN add +20 ability scores to all stats +5 per level afterwords and i am trying to explain why this is a bad idea and suggested gestalt if he wants an overpowered campaign. Can someone help me remind him of how op this can get?

[Vhaidara]

Well, the ability scores are terrifying, and I hope he's ready for an entire party that runs around in bathrobes. No one will want to use armor when their Dex is that bloody high. Still, could be fun, so long as no one starts stacking +X to Y (I found a horrific 3.PF combination that results, through outright torture of wording, in x7 Dex to damage).

Gestalt can be higher powered, but it is entirely possible for a gestalt character to be weaker than a non-gestalt. IIRC, gestalting every single class that lack 9th level spells/powers resulted in something roughly on par with a sorcerer.

[OldTrees1]

Um. Why do you think he doesn't know? That sounds like the start of a "PCs are fledgling godlings" campaign.

[eggynack]

Numbers can do a lot, but they're still just numbers. I would expect most of the power range of the high ability score game to be above the power range of the gestalt game, but the high end of the gestalt game, defined by options like wizard//factotum or any full caster//factotum really, or perhaps psionic class//caster, to be significantly higher than the high end of the high ability score game. The problem with that is that any description of the potential hell wrought through the introduction of these scores can be easily matched by a description of a greater hell wrought by gestalt. Thus, your specific request is unlikely to yield much in the way of meaningful results.

[Svata]

Or, for truly horrifying action economy abuse, Factotum//Psion.

[Vhaidara]

Or, for truly horrifying action economy abuse, Factotum//Psion.

Hell, even the mundanes get truly silly abuse of action economy. Factotum/Warblade//Eternal Blade

[rockdeworld]

Numbers can do a lot, but they're still just numbers.
The "Abilities and Spellcasters" table suggests otherwise.
Supposing I'm a level 1 cleric with 18 wis, now add +20 and it's 38. I get 4 bonus spells, tripling my base total for that level.
By level 3, it's 48 wis, so I have 5 bonus 2nd level spells, more than tripling my base total for that level.
By Level 5, it's 58 wis, for 6 3rd level bonus spells, quadrupling my base total for that level and making my Blindness spell a DC 34. Requiring the DM to increase encounters to CR 7 before he finds a creature that can save on anything other than a natural 20 (or use a creature immune to fortitude saves, because that never gets old).

At each level I get more and more bonus spells, and saves that quickly grow off the charts. Those ability increases are pretty good.

Having seen some TO gestalt builds, I'm not sure gestalt is less theoretically broken, but it seems to me that it's easier to not break the game with gestalt.

[eggynack]

The "Abilities and Spellcasters" table suggests otherwise.
Supposing I'm a level 1 cleric with 18 wis, now +20 it's 38. I get 4 bonus spells, tripling my base total.
By level 3, it's 48 wis, so I have 5 bonus 2nd level spells, more than tripling my base total.
By Level 5, it's 58 wis, for 6 bonus spells, quadrupling my base total and making my Blindness spell a DC 34 and requiring the DM to increase encounters to CR 7 before he finds a creature that can save on anything other than a natural 20.

At each level I get more and more bonus spells, and saves that quickly grow off the charts. Those ability increases are pretty good.

Having seen some TO gestalt builds, I'm not sure gestalt is less theoretically broken, but it seems to me that it's easier to not break the game with gestalt.
Those effects are certainly strong, and as I noted, high scores are easier to break the game with due to simple things like that. However, gestalt provides things greater than a pile of difficult to resist spells. It grants the ability to break the action economy, and do so consistently, and it allows for a level of total versatility much greater than anything that exists in a normal game. Point is, the OP's request was essentially for the high end that could exist in a relatively normal game, and if his goal is to replace that high end with the high end of gestalt, then he's definitely not going to reduce power.

[Svata]

Could we maybe even combine that? Maybe like this? Warblade 1/Psion 3/Warblade+1Psion+17//Factotum 10/Eternal Blade 10? Ultimate master of the action economy, perhaps? (short of punpun, obviously)

[Renen]

Yeh. In this case casters would be OP. Unless monsters ALSO all get +20. In which case you gotta wonder... if everything is OP, is ANYTHING op? (Please dont actually answer that)

[Baroknik]

Yeh. In this case casters would be OP. Unless monsters ALSO all get +20. In which case you gotta wonder... if everything is OP, is ANYTHING op? (Please dont actually answer that)

Yes, maniacalmojo is OP

[Heliomance]

Yeh. In this case casters would be OP. Unless monsters ALSO all get +20. In which case you gotta wonder... if everything is OP, is ANYTHING op? (Please dont actually answer that)

Monks are OP.

[Hamste]

I shudder to think what the disparity in strengths with in the party will be. A paladin with a monks belt (or a level in monk) would have considerably more ac and higher saves than the rest of the party to the point that if a monster hits them on anything other than a natural 20 the rest of the party who didn't go this way get hit almost every time. Basically anything that adds a stat's bonus onto something else is going to be massively strong as the stats are high enough to result in it being almost irresistible.

[Necroticplague]

Which one is stronger depends on the way the characers are built. If the characters built are SAD with a relatively narrow focus, then using gestalt would allow them to branch out without significant loss, making them much more powerful then simply what making them better at the one thing with a large stat would do. Meanwhile, if the characters are making good use of +x to y, then the +20 to everything can be a significant boost. Dip enough of paladin to get +cha to saves, then battledancer and monk and fist of the forest. Watch nothing scratch you. Of course, armor can be relevant in gestalt, while it will quickly become obsolete in the high stat game. Meanwhile, gestalt also has templates be more available (since you have more levels to blow, making LA less of a big deal), while the large amounts of stats make many templates much less good of a deal (lolth touched becomes just +1 to two stats and fear immunity vs getting a class level).

[Sam K]

+20 ability scores give higher power to everyone, with a bit more power to MAD builds (like the previously mentioned monk/paladin). It does have some interesting effects like armor becoming useless because of the high dex bonuses, though.

Gestalt doesn't really add that much pure power you your average level of optimization (it improves flexibility, though), but in high OP it becomes INCREDIBLY powerful because of the ways to break the action economy and to qualify for multiple hard-to-enter PRCs. Gestalt is more book-keeping, but far more fun (in my opinion) for a higher-than-average powered game.

[Psyren]

Those effects are certainly strong, and as I noted, high scores are easier to break the game with due to simple things like that. However, gestalt provides things greater than a pile of difficult to resist spells. It grants the ability to break the action economy, and do so consistently, and it allows for a level of total versatility much greater than anything that exists in a normal game. Point is, the OP's request was essentially for the high end that could exist in a relatively normal game, and if his goal is to replace that high end with the high end of gestalt, then he's definitely not going to reduce power.

With the right class, high ability scores can also break action economy. A Psion with 42+ Int is going to have few problems twinning most of his powers or augmenting TA to activate his schism at the beginning of every fight.

[Fouredged Sword]

Psion // Factotum 8 / Turn undead accessing class 2 / DMM persist Ur-priest 10. (who persists ALL the spells due to near unlimited turn attempts)

[StoneCipher]

What is even the point of rolling stats if you get an auto-20 anyways? The higher power you get, the less base stats will matter.

[SinsI]

A Dm wants to start a high powered game and have everyone roll their stats and THEN add +20 ability scores to all stats +5 per level afterwords and i am trying to explain why this is a bad idea and suggested gestalt if he wants an overpowered campaign. Can someone help me remind him of how op this can get?
It's not going to be a "high powered game". It's not going to be a game at all.
D&D rules were made for a certain range of parameters and completely fail outside them:
Characters die at -10 HP.
If you receive more than 50 damage from one hit, you can insta-die from Massive Damage rule.
You automiss on 1, you autohit on 20

Not to mention all the crazy things you become able to do with things like Diplomacy if your bonuses become arbitrarily large...

[Fallenreality]

It's not going to be a "high powered game". It's not going to be a game at all.
D&D rules were made for a certain range of parameters and completely fail outside them:
Characters die at -10 HP.
If you receive more than 50 damage from one hit, you can insta-die from Massive Damage rule.
You automiss on 1, you autohit on 20

Not to mention all the crazy things you become able to do with things like Diplomacy if your bonuses become arbitrarily large...

I agree, except that massive damage is an alternate rule, not the base rule.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I agree, except that massive damage is an alternate rule, not the base rule.
In 3.5, it's the base rule. Player's Handbook, page 145, right column, third in-line bolded caption from the top. It's just commonly ignored.

As for the original question, I would tell your DM that gestalt gives you far more interesting builds and flexibility.

Something else which I'd find more interesting, is reducing all LA by a set number (to a minimum of zero). That would allow you to add some templates and things you wouldn't normally get, especially for casters. You can do the same thing with RHD. A 1 HD dragonkin (Draconomicon 150, normally 7 RHD, +2 LA) would be pretty fun as a lockdown crusader, taking advantage of large size for tripping and Hover for concealment (dust cloud! it looks awesome! who cares you can't see through it yourself?). They are super slow though, get your DM to grant you double speed at least.