Durkon can be resurrected immediately.

[dangenet]

The OOTS is unlikely to find a 13th level cleric able to raise Durkon. Durkula is obviously counting on this.

However, the Order has overcome this sort of obstacle before, thanks to V's quick and logical thinking.

In #058, Elan is dying and Durkon is unconscious. V cast's Owl's Wisdom on Belkar to allow him to use a scroll of Cure Light scavenged from Durkon's pack.

In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.

In #650, Durkon does NOT use the scroll to resurrect Roy. This is precisely the reason V leaves to fight Xykon without waiting for the rest of the Order.

So how to get around the absence of 13th level NPC clerics? Obtain a scroll of resurrection, which the party already has, and V knows it. Whack Durkula, and take him to the temple with the highest level cleric (or to the artificer, perhaps). Buff the NPC with all resources available to enable him to make the caster level check to cast resurrection from the scroll.

This plan is directly analogous to the plan that V came up with to save Elan in strip #058. V knows that a scroll of Resurrection exists, his logic is inexorable, and her memory practically photographic. Buffing a cleric to make that caster level check would be relatively easy if the party devoted effort to it.

However, execution of such a plan would prematurely reveal Durkula as unwilling to be resurrected, which I think would change Roy's opinion significantly and cause problems for the storyline.

The Giant has taught me well: it's not about efficient or clever use of the rules. It's about the story.

I apologize if this is somewhere else. I did not search exhaustively. If it is, I'll gladly take this down.

[Peelee]

In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.

Potential flaw: That the IFCC claimed it does not necessarily mean it is true.

[dangenet]

Good point. Corroborating evidence would be necessary in order to validate the IFCC's statement. However, even if the IFCC lied, Durkon could scribe the scroll himself. Others have noted that the NPC cleric + scroll is a possibility.

I think the most interesting thing here is that V has all the pieces and has put them together in this way before. This is not a story about what you can do with the rules, it's about the characters. Is there a reason that V would be reticent about this, given his/her experiences since Azure City? I'm not sure.

Perhaps I should have titled the thread, "Durkon can be raised immediately, and V knows it", because I am very interested in V's ongoing internal struggle to understand and accept his/her own actions.

[Porthos]

The fatal flaw in this theory is finding a sucker NPC willing to take the chance. Even if you find one that is co-operative, narrative shenanigans come into play. As Haley and Celia discovered to their frustration when Roy was dead. :smallwink:

Hell, might as well ask why they don't try to pump up Haley's UMD through the roof (they were planning/did have Haley use a scroll of Sending after all). Well, one might ask that if we hadn't just seen Haley UMD shenanigans this last strip. :smalltongue:

As for why V hasn't suggested it? Might be something as simple as him running the odds and deciding that they have a better chance at running into a level appropriate NPC once they reach a major town versus trying their luck with a scroll and a low level person. More to the point he might think the risk/reward at the moment isn't worth killing "Durkon". After all, Durkon seems "good" enough for right now. Why run the risk of killing him and have the scroll gambit fail?

Furthermore, one of the points of his recent conversation with Belkar, I felt, was that he was uncomfortable with dealing with judgments about who deserves to live or die with limited information given his recent experiences.

So maybe he just doesn't want to take the chance/make a decision when he doesn't have to.

[theNater]

In #634, the IFCC indicates to V that Durkon has saved a scroll of Resurrection in case he needs to resurrect someone quickly.
In #634 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html), they indicate that Durkon has a scroll of Sending, which also has a 10-minute casting time. Vaarsuvius knows about that cast time, unlike the cast time for Resurrection (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html), because Sending is also a wizard spell.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

Good point. Corroborating evidence would be necessary in order to validate the IFCC's statement. However, even if the IFCC lied, Durkon could scribe the scroll himself. Others have noted that the NPC cleric + scroll is a possibility.
I would also like to point out that the IFCC simply dont strike me as the lying type. they manipulate the truth for sure, but i have yet to see any evidence of them outright lying to there prey. Also, even if they were to lie about this, they have nothing to gain, and they seem like the sort who would avoid lying outright over minutia when it could compromise there entire plan. they needed V to trust them (as much as you can trust powerful beings of pure evil) so lying to her simply wouldnt have served their purposes

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I would also like to point out that the IFCC simply dont strike me as the lying type. they manipulate the truth for sure, but i have yet to see any evidence of them outright lying to there prey. Also, even if they were to lie about this, they have nothing to gain, and they seem like the sort who would avoid lying outright over minutia when it could compromise there entire plan. they needed V to trust them (as much as you can trust powerful beings of pure evil) so lying to her simply wouldnt have served their purposes

One thing they lied about was Durkon's presence on the ship, since Kazumi says that they hadn't seen him in days. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0643.html) In addition, I agree with theNater that it seems they were referring to a scroll of Sending. I think they main point of the IFCC's alternate plan was not to actually suggest a viable plan, but to show that Vaarsuvius's motives were not entirely honorable.

Now, Durkon could write them another scroll. However, that would probably take several days that the Order doesn't have.

[theNater]

...Durkon could scribe the scroll himself.

Now, Durkon could write them another scroll.
Are we sure of that? It requires the Scribe Scroll feat; clerics don't get that automatically, the way wizards do.


However, that would probably take several days that the Order doesn't have.
A little over 2 days, if my math is right. Theoretically, if he could do it at all, he could have done it during the airship trip.

[Quartz]

Perhaps there's no need to find a cleric? Could not Haley read the scroll thanks to her Use Magic Device skill?

But I continue to wonder which spirit would be resurrected, Durkon or Durkula/HPoH? Maybe the latter is sincere in his wish to be resurrected for this reason? If so, he doesn't know about the scroll.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Are we sure of that? It requires the Scribe Scroll feat; clerics don't get that automatically, the way wizards do.
That's a good point. I've been assuming that he has it, but I can't find any solid evidence.



A little over 2 days, if my math is right. Theoretically, if he could do it at all, he could have done it during the airship trip.

For some reason I thought it took longer.

[Quartz]

Perhaps there's no need to find a cleric? Could not Haley read the scroll thanks to her Use Magic Device skill?

The DC for casting the spell would be 33, and she'd have to succeed at a DC 38 roll to decipher it (probably not an issue if she can Take 20), but she'd also need Wis 17 to cast the spell. She likely does not have Wis 17, but if she has Wis 13+ V could cast Owl's Wisdom on her, or she would need to succeed at a DC 32 UMD check. I'm not sure if she could Take 10 or Take 20 on this.

[littlebum2002]

Hell, might as well ask why they don't try to pump up Haley's UMD through the roof (they were planning/did have Haley use a scroll of Sending after all). Well, one might ask that if we hadn't just seen Haley UMD shenanigans this last strip. :smalltongue:


This. We know Haley put skill ranks into UMD last level, but how many? If they really wanted Durkon rezzed, they could have just had Haley put ALL her skill points from last level into UMD, and between that and an Eagle's Splendor spell, she might have enough to be able to have a 100% chance of using the scroll correctly.

[Keltest]

I think if they REALLY wanted Durkon resurrected above all other things, they would fly for Cliffport and post a sign on a tavern wall that they were looking for a cleric who could resurrect a vampire. Even if they couldn't find one on hand, they could certainly get directions to one.

However getting Durkon resurrected is, at this point, not a pressing concern. They are trying it because the temples are conveniently located and theres little advantage to keeping him a vampire.

[littlebum2002]

I think if they REALLY wanted Durkon resurrected above all other things, they would fly for Cliffport and post a sign on a tavern wall that they were looking for a cleric who could resurrect a vampire. Even if they couldn't find one on hand, they could certainly get directions to one.

However getting Durkon resurrected is, at this point, not a pressing concern. They are trying it because the temples are conveniently located and theres little advantage to keeping him a vampire.

I don't think that's really a valid plan. The weeks it would take to fly to Cliffport and back would pretty much guarantee that Xykon gets to the gate and completes the ritual. We're trying to think of ways to resurrect Durkon that don't involve the BBEG taking over the world.

[Keltest]

I don't think that's really a valid plan. The weeks it would take to fly to Cliffport and back would pretty much guarantee that Xykon gets to the gate and completes the ritual. We're trying to think of ways to resurrect Durkon that don't involve the BBEG taking over the world.

Of course its not a practical plan, that's my point. Any plan that involves anything other than hoping they pass by someone who can help them at this point is a distraction from their larger goal. From Roy's perspective, there isn't any gain in allowing themselves to be distracted like that. Whether or not that's actually true due to the Vampire Spirit remains to be seen.

[NerdyKris]

Agreed. They (well, most of the party) think Durkon is still Durkon. They don't see any reason to go out of their way to raise him when he's supposedly on their side and helping. Raising him can wait until after they defeat Xykon. That's why Haley picked up that wand for Elan so he can cover some of the healing ability they've lost now that Durkon can't spontaneously cast healing spells. We the readers know he's evil, but Roy, Haley, and Elan all think this is just Durkon with fangs and an aversion to sunlight, and that there is a more pressing concern of Xykon. It's not worth their time to go out of their way to attempt to raise him in a manner that might fail, leaving them short a cleric, instead of just having a cleric with a few downsides.

[Lathund]

This is ambiguous. Does Durkon have a scroll of Sending or a scroll of Resurrection? Personally, a scroll of Sending would make more sense to me.

[Keltest]

This is ambiguous. Does Durkon have a scroll of Sending or a scroll of Resurrection? Personally, a scroll of Sending would make more sense to me.

It is definitely sending. In the comic in question (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0634.html) you can see Durkon casting from a scroll after V has been resurrected. V would certainly not be alive if that were the resurrect scroll.

[littlebum2002]

Of course its not a practical plan, that's my point. Any plan that involves anything other than hoping they pass by someone who can help them at this point is a distraction from their larger goal. From Roy's perspective, there isn't any gain in allowing themselves to be distracted like that. Whether or not that's actually true due to the Vampire Spirit remains to be seen.


Agreed. They (well, most of the party) think Durkon is still Durkon. They don't see any reason to go out of their way to raise him when he's supposedly on their side and helping. Raising him can wait until after they defeat Xykon. That's why Haley picked up that wand for Elan so he can cover some of the healing ability they've lost now that Durkon can't spontaneously cast healing spells. We the readers know he's evil, but Roy, Haley, and Elan all think this is just Durkon with fangs and an aversion to sunlight, and that there is a more pressing concern of Xykon. It's not worth their time to go out of their way to attempt to raise him in a manner that might fail, leaving them short a cleric, instead of just having a cleric with a few downsides.

Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.

[Keltest]

Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.

The OP is based on the assumption that Durkon has a scroll of resurrection burning a hole in his pocket. That is pretty definitely not the case.

[SirKazum]

That comes from misreading the comic with the IFCC fiends, where they say he has a scroll of sending AND can ressurrect Vaarsuvius (but no mention of scrolls is made in that regard). So I guess that's it for this theory.

[NerdyKris]

Right, but if you look at the OP of this thread, he is attempting to discuss ways of resurrecting Durkon WITHOUT going out of the Order's way. Like finding a way to have an NPC cleric in their town successfully read a scroll. Or, like I suggested, spamming Haley's UMD score until she can successfully read it. Flying to Cliffport is an incredibly self-defeating waste of time. Spending a few hours to search for an NPC cleric or train using a wand is not.

But it's ignoring the chance that the plan could fail. That would be a pretty major part of the calculations. Raise Dead would work 100% of the time. Haley trying to use a scroll could fail, leaving them without a cleric at all. That's not worth the risk when Roy, Haley, and Elan all think Durkon is the same old Durkon with fangs. They have no reason to risk losing him before the final battle when they think he's on their side still.

That's assuming they could even find a scroll. Assuming they can find the neccesary magical item for a plan to work, you could also assume they find the teleporation scroll/wand Vaarsuvius needs, which would allow them to teleport to Cliffport and find a cleric to raise Durkon without any risk or wasted time, because we know there are clerics out there and that Roy knows their location, Eugene was raised several times, and they attempted to raise Eric several times.

[Rogar Demonblud]

Time is not an issue. The Mechane will arrive in the nick of time. Not before, and not later.

[Porthos]

I think that one can fairly easily deduce from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) that the Order didn't have a spare scroll of Resurrection lying around. Durkon would have/should have mentioned having a scroll instead of talking about the material component cost of casting the ten minute spell.

Moreover, since casting from a scroll in OotsWorld canonically does NOT take the same time that it does to cast a spell normally (yes, I know what the official clarified 3.5 rules say - unimportant :smallwink:), one might think that Durkon would have used his handy spare scroll rather than cast it "fresh" as it were. And even if one ignores the casting time debate (please please ignore it :smalltongue:) the fact that the supposed scroll already had the cost of the 10,000 gp diamond [dust] in it makes one think that they should have used that rather than a fresh diamond [dust].

Yeah, yeah. Optimal play. I know. Still. :smalltongue:

I think the fact that this scroll hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than the IFCC makes me doubt it exists.

*suddenly remembers*

Especially since the lack of a diamond became a throw away joke plot point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) during the attempt to get Roy rezzed. :smallwink:

So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument. :smallwink:

[Psyren]

So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument. :smallwink:

Agreed.

Also, that conversation would likely go "I dinna have Scribe scroll laddie" and V shrugging since he never learned how to cooperate with divine casters to scribe anything. (Not "real magic." (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0650.html)) Roy would swallow it and the plot would keep going.

[littlebum2002]

I think that one can fairly easily deduce from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) that the Order didn't have a spare scroll of Resurrection lying around. Durkon would have/should have mentioned having a scroll instead of talking about the material component cost of casting the ten minute spell.

Moreover, since casting from a scroll in OotsWorld canonically does NOT take the same time that it does to cast a spell normally (yes, I know what the official clarified 3.5 rules say - unimportant :smallwink:), one might think that Durkon would have used his handy spare scroll rather than cast it "fresh" as it were. And even if one ignores the casting time debate (please please ignore it :smalltongue:) the fact that the supposed scroll already had the cost of the 10,000 gp diamond [dust] in it makes one think that they should have used that rather than a fresh diamond [dust].

Yeah, yeah. Optimal play. I know. Still. :smalltongue:

I think the fact that this scroll hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than the IFCC makes me doubt it exists.

*suddenly remembers*

Especially since the lack of a diamond became a throw away joke plot point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) during the attempt to get Roy rezzed. :smallwink:

So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument. :smallwink:

Sending also takes 10 minutes to cast. I think that is the scroll the IFCC was talking about.

[dangenet]

I have misread #634, as a number of posters have observed. The scroll referred to is a scroll of Sending, not of Resurrection. Since the party does not have that scroll, I retract the "immediately" part of my argument.

I (reluctantly) accept that Durkula is going to be with us for a long time to come, even if a technically feasible solution to the resurrection problem does exist.

Really, the question is: does V want to raise Durkon? Roy is trying - will V?

Even though V is biased towards balance, and the party is now balanced between Good and Evil, and V is inclined to be tolerant of others' alignments, I don't see V tolerating this change.

V developed some respect for Durkon when he apologized after V returned from fighting Xykon. V also knows that the living Durkon would never have tolerated a creature like a vampire; so it boggles the mind that V would remain neutral about what has happened to him.

Being superficially "neutral" in this case means V ignoring everything V knows about Durkon as a person.

Thanks all for your observations about the meanings of some of the details in these strips. It's hard to recognize assumptions one doesn't realize that one has made :smallwink:

[Keltest]

I have misread #634, as a number of posters have observed. The scroll referred to is a scroll of Sending, not of Resurrection. Since the party does not have that scroll, I retract the "immediately" part of my argument.

I (reluctantly) accept that Durkula is going to be with us for a long time to come, even if a technically feasible solution to the resurrection problem does exist.

Really, the question is: does V want to raise Durkon? Roy is trying - will V?

Even though V is biased towards balance, and the party is now balanced between Good and Evil, and V is inclined to be tolerant of others' alignments, I don't see V tolerating this change.

V developed some respect for Durkon when he apologized after V returned from fighting Xykon. V also knows that the living Durkon would never have tolerated a creature like a vampire; so it boggles the mind that V would remain neutral about what has happened to him.

Being superficially "neutral" in this case means V ignoring everything V knows about Durkon as a person.

Thanks all for your observations about the meanings of some of the details in these strips. It's hard to recognize assumptions one doesn't realize that one has made :smallwink:

"Durkon" has expressed a desire to be resurrected. If V is able to quickly solve that problem, he would likely do so.

[Peelee]

stuff

Dude, as far as forum theories go, that was pretty good comparatively.

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Dude, as far as forum theories go, that was pretty good comparatively.

That is true. It merely suffered a misreading of text, otherwise it was well-thought out.

[dangenet]

Jaxzan Proditor, Peelee, I appreciate the kind words. I misread the strip the first time I read it, and every time I reread it I never realized the mistake I'd made.

Having a scroll would have been the most convenient, but there are other more complicated ways of doing it (that don't bear going into). So I don't regard the option as completely dead, just perhaps less simple.

As a player in this situation I would be trying so hard to overcome the obstacles set up by the GM [and I tend to play analytical characters like V]. But we only see Roy doing that, and that's what puzzles me.

I single V out because V has shown the ability to solve these problems without breaking the fourth wall. Where's the passion from V? It's a challenge to be overcome, not with 'ultimate arcane power' but with logic, which V has always been passionate in applying.

[Ridin'TheCrash]

I single V out because V has shown the ability to solve these problems without breaking the fourth wall. Where's the passion from V? It's a challenge to be overcome, not with 'ultimate arcane power' but with logic, which V has always been passionate in applying.

But I dont think V feels that passion. Yes she has become more logical, but to him, Durkula isnt a problem to be solved. His change in creature type, to V's knoledge, could have no major negative side effects worthy of her intervention. She's become more cautious, so why fix what hasnt been broken?

[Reboot]

But it's ignoring the chance that the plan could fail. That would be a pretty major part of the calculations. Raise Dead would work 100% of the time.

100 percentage points off there. Raise Dead doesn't work on undead, even "destroyed" ones. They need Resurrection or better (and to "destroy" Durkula first).

[theNater]

Having a scroll would have been the most convenient, but there are other more complicated ways of doing it (that don't bear going into). So I don't regard the option as completely dead, just perhaps less simple.

As a player in this situation I would be trying so hard to overcome the obstacles set up by the GM [and I tend to play analytical characters like V]. But we only see Roy doing that, and that's what puzzles me.

I single V out because V has shown the ability to solve these problems without breaking the fourth wall. Where's the passion from V? It's a challenge to be overcome, not with 'ultimate arcane power' but with logic, which V has always been passionate in applying.
If a reasonable method of restoring Durkon to life presents itself, I have no doubt that Vaarsuvius will share it with Roy. However, that is not the only problem the Order is currently facing, and they can't afford to indulge in a convoluted scheme in an attempt to solve a problem which is not pressing.

[Heksefatter]

I would also like to point out that the IFCC simply dont strike me as the lying type. they manipulate the truth for sure, but i have yet to see any evidence of them outright lying to there prey. Also, even if they were to lie about this, they have nothing to gain, and they seem like the sort who would avoid lying outright over minutia when it could compromise there entire plan. they needed V to trust them (as much as you can trust powerful beings of pure evil) so lying to her simply wouldnt have served their purposes

As a matter of fact, the IFCC have lied to V. They did so relating to the effect of the soul splice and how it might affect V's alignment:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

Also it is pretty clear that the alternate plan that the IFCC presented to V was a lie too, as Qarr rightly points out that it is ridiculous. This is not solid proof, but a pretty clear indication:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html

[Jaxzan Proditor]

Jaxzan Proditor, Peelee, I appreciate the kind words. I misread the strip the first time I read it, and every time I reread it I never realized the mistake I'd made.

Having a scroll would have been the most convenient, but there are other more complicated ways of doing it (that don't bear going into). So I don't regard the option as completely dead, just perhaps less simple.

As a player in this situation I would be trying so hard to overcome the obstacles set up by the GM [and I tend to play analytical characters like V]. But we only see Roy doing that, and that's what puzzles me.

I single V out because V has shown the ability to solve these problems without breaking the fourth wall. Where's the passion from V? It's a challenge to be overcome, not with 'ultimate arcane power' but with logic, which V has always been passionate in applying.

Keep in mind that the High Priest of Hel only said that he wanted to be resurrected relatively recently. It is quite likely that Vaarsuvius doesn't know or hasn't had any time to work on resurrecting him. Since Vaarsuvius doesn't think that being a vampire is necessarily a bad thing, it is unlikely that they would try to resurrect him without the High Priest of Hel's intention being to do so.

[theNater]

Keep in mind that the High Priest of Hel only said that he wanted to be resurrected relatively recently. It is quite likely that Vaarsuvius doesn't know or hasn't had any time to work on resurrecting him. Since Vaarsuvius doesn't think that being a vampire is necessarily a bad thing, it is unlikely that they would try to resurrect him without the High Priest of Hel's intention being to do so.
Vaarsuvius does know that Roy isn't happy with the way events worked out. It's reasonable to assume that Vaarsuvius is thinking about it, and will inform Roy of any practical ideas.

[Keltest]

As a matter of fact, the IFCC have lied to V. They did so relating to the effect of the soul splice and how it might affect V's alignment:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0640.html

Also it is pretty clear that the alternate plan that the IFCC presented to V was a lie too, as Qarr rightly points out that it is ridiculous. This is not solid proof, but a pretty clear indication:
http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0637.html

I think its an important detail that neither of those examples are outright lies. In the first case, they said he may be getting some feedback, alignment wise. Apparently, he did! They did not say it would be because of the spirits, and in fact said they have no ability to control his actions.

The plan itself was factually accurate as far as V (and therefore the IFCC) knew, it just had an incredibly low chance of working.

[Peelee]

The plan itself was factually accurate as far as V (and therefore the IFCC) knew, it just had an incredibly low chance of working.

They ignored the 10 minute casting time for Resurrection because V did not know how it worked. And they know damn well how divine spells work. Lie by omission.

[Keltest]

They ignored the 10 minute casting time for Resurrection because V did not know how it worked. And they know damn well how divine spells work. Lie by omission.

Actually they appear to have taken that into account as well, when the specified that V's master may not be able to arrive in time to save V's family from death, but could save them from being soul bound and dropped in different planes.

[Reboot]

They ignored the 10 minute casting time for Resurrection because V did not know how it worked. And they know damn well how divine spells work. Lie by omission.

Oh, if you count lies by omission it is pretty inevitable that devils (and demons. And dæmons) aren't going to state every last detail - they also lied-by-omission in leaving V to assume that they would only get his soul after his death (V even says "the brief time my soul will spend being tortured in your collective care after my eventual death..." in #634, and they even say when they claim him in #897 "We never said that./You assumed--/--and we saw no reason to correct.").

When you talk about "lies" in this context, it's pretty much of the "says b, q is true" school, not the "says b, b+c is true" scenario...

[Peelee]

Oh, if you count lies by omission it is pretty inevitable that devils (and demons. And dæmons) aren't going to state every last detail - they also lied-by-omission in leaving V to assume that they would only get his soul after his death (V even says "the brief time my soul will spend being tortured in your collective care after my eventual death..." in #634, and they even say when they claim him in #897 "We never said that./You assumed--/--and we saw no reason to correct.").

When you talk about "lies" in this context, it's pretty much of the "says b, q is true" school, not the "says b, b+c is true" scenario...

Semantically, yes, you may be right. Realistically, no. That's a pretty freaking big detail to leave out, which would invalidate the entire plan. They mentioned the casting time for one spell with a 10-minute cast, but not the other? And when V took the deal and went instantly, the ABD was nearly done. If he'd waited for the Res (assuming the rest of the plan wasn't hooey to start with), by the time Inky even knew, there'd almost definitely be nothing left.

When you talk about "lies" in this context, it's pretty much "any kind of lie of great significance that would fundamentally invalidate the efficacy of the alternate plan."

[Jaxzan Proditor]

As I said earlier, the IFCC must either be lying or not very knowledgeable of the state of Vaarsuvius's companions, or they would have said that Durkon had in fact left the fleet several days earlier.

[137beth]

Are we sure of that? It requires the Scribe Scroll feat; clerics don't get that automatically, the way wizards do.

In 3.5, IIRC, multiple crafters who collectively have all the prerequisites can team up to craft an item. Hence, V (who has scribe scroll due to being a wizard) and HPoH (who knows resurrection) could make a scroll together.
Not everyone is aware of that rule, and many house-rule that it cannot be done without even realizing they are house ruling. Since the Giant doesn't really care about RAW, I suspect he will decide team-scroll-scribing is not a possibility for the Order.

[littlebum2002]

In 3.5, IIRC, multiple crafters who collectively have all the prerequisites can team up to craft an item. Hence, V (who has scribe scroll due to being a wizard) and HPoH (who knows resurrection) could make a scroll together.
Not everyone is aware of that rule, and many house-rule that it cannot be done without even realizing they are house ruling. Since the Giant doesn't really care about RAW, I suspect he will decide team-scroll-scribing is not a possibility for the Order.

But without this ruling by Rich (which i certainly agree he will do), the point remains that the OP was correct: There IS a way by which the Order can Resurrect Durkon with minimal effort. Just scribe, say, 4 scrolls of Resurrection and give them to a Rogue or Cleric who is buffed enough to only fail on a Natural 1. Then you can get your healthy Cleric back with only a 1/160,000 chance of fouling up. Any higher than that and you venture into "one in a million is a sure thing" territory.

Of course, the HPoH will balk at such an idea, but that would tip Roy off that something's not right.

[Keltest]

But without this ruling by Rich (which i certainly agree he will do), the point remains that the OP was correct: There IS a way by which the Order can Resurrect Durkon with minimal effort. Just scribe, say, 4 scrolls of Resurrection and give them to a Rogue or Cleric who is buffed enough to only fail on a Natural 1. Then you can get your healthy Cleric back with only a 1/160,000 chance of fouling up. Any higher than that and you venture into "one in a million is a sure thing" territory.

Of course, the HPoH will balk at such an idea, but that would tip Roy off that something's not right.

That is, of course, assuming that anyone in the order knows that multiple people can work together to scribe a scroll in the first place. V or Elan would certainly have chirped up by now if they knew they could do that.

[MrMercury]

I think that one can fairly easily deduce from this strip (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0845.html) that the Order didn't have a spare scroll of Resurrection lying around. Durkon would have/should have mentioned having a scroll instead of talking about the material component cost of casting the ten minute spell.

Moreover, since casting from a scroll in OotsWorld canonically does NOT take the same time that it does to cast a spell normally (yes, I know what the official clarified 3.5 rules say - unimportant :smallwink:), one might think that Durkon would have used his handy spare scroll rather than cast it "fresh" as it were. And even if one ignores the casting time debate (please please ignore it :smalltongue:) the fact that the supposed scroll already had the cost of the 10,000 gp diamond [dust] in it makes one think that they should have used that rather than a fresh diamond [dust].

Yeah, yeah. Optimal play. I know. Still. :smalltongue:

I think the fact that this scroll hasn't been mentioned by anyone other than the IFCC makes me doubt it exists.

*suddenly remembers*

Especially since the lack of a diamond became a throw away joke plot point (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0649.html) during the attempt to get Roy rezzed. :smallwink:

So, yeah, no. There is no Scroll of Resurrection here. Not at the moment at least. Now asking Durkon to make one could be interesting to see from a Calling His Bluff standpoint. But that's a whole separate argument. :smallwink:


1) A casting scroll is still a use of resources

2) I don't know what you're talking about, the rules for resurrection say a 10 minute casting time, which has been stuck to

3) The IFCC wouldn't really lie, I think

[theNater]

In 3.5, IIRC, multiple crafters who collectively have all the prerequisites can team up to craft an item.
That's a new one on me. Can anybody provide a source for this rule?


There IS a way by which the Order can Resurrect Durkon with minimal effort. Just scribe, say, 4 scrolls of Resurrection and give them to a Rogue or Cleric who is buffed enough to only fail on a Natural 1.
Scribing four scrolls of Resurrection would take over a week, and require enough diamond dust to cast Resurrection four times.

I also doubt that Rogues and Clerics who only fail on a natural 1 are going to be particularly thick on the ground, even with the buffs at the Order's disposal. Using such a scroll is not an easy task.

[goto124]

That is, of course, assuming that anyone in the order knows that multiple people can work together to scribe a scroll in the first place. V or Elan would certainly have chirped up by now if they knew they could do that.

I really wonder if they can even work together to scribe a scroll of Ressurection...

[littlebum2002]

That's a new one on me. Can anybody provide a source for this rule?

Magic Item Basics
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm)
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.




Scribing four scrolls of Resurrection would take over a week
I know! Too bad they don't have a slow method of travel (like an airship or something) that would take over a week with nothing else to do to go to their destination!



and require enough diamond dust to cast Resurrection four times.

Haley has (or had, prior to her shopping spree) at least 200,000 GP (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html). 40,000 GP is a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world.


I also doubt that Rogues and Clerics who only fail on a natural 1 are going to be particularly thick on the ground, even with the buffs at the Order's disposal. Using such a scroll is not an easy task.

We already know she had ranks in UMD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) (I don't feel like doing the math right now, but Geekery says this gives her at least 7 ranks, and they know everything, so I trust them). When she just leveled up, she gained at least 9 skill points, which if she invested them all in UMD (again, a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world), and +2 extra from Eagle's Splendor, that gives her +18, and I think 33 is required for a Scroll of Resurrection. A magic item that gives +15 to UMD would be 22,500 GP. 62,500 GP is certainly a lot of money, I'd probably say you're right, it's not worth it. For a Rogue.

However, all you need to find is a Cleric with at least 13 Wisdom (which makes 17 with Owl's Wisdom) and they only need to roll equal to the difference between Level 13 and their level. So if they can find, say, a Level 9 Cleric, they have a 1/625 chance of not resurrecting him given 4 scrolls. A 1/3125 chance if they have 5 scrolls. A 1/15,625 chance if they make 6 scrolls. And so what if you make too many scrolls? You can always just sell the remainder once the adventure is done.

[Peelee]

And so what if you make too many scrolls? You can always just sell the remainder once the adventure is done.

In a game, maybe. In OotS world? Don't count your chickens before they're hatched.

That is all.

[theNater]

Magic Item Basics
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicItemBasics.htm)
Learn something new every day. Thanks!


I know! Too bad they don't have a slow method of travel (like an airship or something) that would take over a week with nothing else to do to go to their destination!
It was eight days when they started (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html), and they've been traveling for three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html). That gives five days remaining; they have time to scribe two scrolls before reaching Kraagor's gate.


Haley has (or had, prior to her shopping spree) at least 200,000 GP (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html).
More recently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html), finances are tight enough that airship repairs may exceed them.


40,000 GP is a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world.
40,000 GP is not the same as 40,000 GP worth of diamond dust. This is a relatively small town; there's no guarantee there will be substantial quantities of diamond dust for sale.


We already know she had ranks in UMD (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0834.html) (I don't feel like doing the math right now, but Geekery says this gives her at least 7 ranks, and they know everything, so I trust them). When she just leveled up, she gained at least 9 skill points, which if she invested them all in UMD (again, a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world), and +2 extra from Eagle's Splendor, that gives her +18, and I think 33 is required for a Scroll of Resurrection. A magic item that gives +15 to UMD would be 22,500 GP.
Are they going to craft the +15 UMD item? Because that's going to eat into their scroll-creating time. Or do you assume the people of Tinkertown have +15 UMD items just burning holes in their pockets?


However, all you need to find is a Cleric with at least 13 Wisdom (which makes 17 with Owl's Wisdom) and they only need to roll equal to the difference between Level 13 and their level. So if they can find, say, a Level 9 Cleric, they have a 1/625 chance of not resurrecting him given 4 scrolls. A 1/3125 chance if they have 5 scrolls. A 1/15,625 chance if they make 6 scrolls. And so what if you make too many scrolls? You can always just sell the remainder once the adventure is done.
How many clerics, of any level, do you expect them to find at Kraagor's gate? My understanding was that it's a tomb filled with the nastiest creatures in the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), not a city.

[Keltest]

40,000 GP is not the same as 40,000 GP worth of diamond dust. This is a relatively small town; there's no guarantee there will be substantial quantities of diamond dust for sale.

Id just like to point out that per a (lampshaded) quirk of the system, the actual amount of the component doesn't matter in the OOTS verse, only the cost. If there are 5 granules of diamond dust, and each granule costs 40,000 GP, then each granule can be used as a component (unless it no longer qualifies as dust at that point, but you get the idea).

Yes, if I were DMing it, that would never actually hold as an argument, but apparently that's how it works in the Stickverse.

[littlebum2002]

It was eight days when they started (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0937.html), and they've been traveling for three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0948.html). That gives five days remaining; they have time to scribe two scrolls before reaching Kraagor's gate.

Good point!



More recently (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0959.html), finances are tight enough that airship repairs may exceed them.


That was before Haley's discount.




Are they going to craft the +15 UMD item? Because that's going to eat into their scroll-creating time. Or do you assume the people of Tinkertown have +15 UMD items just burning holes in their pockets?


Good point




How many clerics, of any level, do you expect them to find at Kraagor's gate? My understanding was that it's a tomb filled with the nastiest creatures in the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), not a city.

Good point



I venture to say I have been proven wrong, there is no reliable way to raise Durkon.

[dangenet]

If the requirement for resurrection is not "immediately" but merely "before we fight Xykon", then...

My take on the geography was that they are going to pass through Dwarven lands after this stop. I don't think any of the PCs have asked Durkon whether the dwarves would have the resources to resurrect him, though it seems likely that the High Priest of Thor might be able to do it. This doesn't require any rules gymnastics, just logic.

I know that the prophecy says that Durkon will bring doom if he ever returns to the dwarven lands, and so far prophecies have pretty good record in OOTS, so I figure "resurrection by High Priest of Thor" is unlikely.

[SirKazum]

Hmmmm... Does "turned into a vampire" count as "posthumously"? :smalleek:

[rodneyAnonymous]

Yes. He died. "Posthumously" means "after death".

[SirKazum]

So... that could be it! At some point (probably before Kraagor's Gate, since that's shaping up to be the big final showdown) the OOTS finds itself in Durkon's homeland somehow... possibly due to the HPoH's influence/manipulation. When he returns there - posthumously, of course - he brings great doom and ruin or whatever it is that was prophesied... because he is, after all, the vampiric high priest of an evil deity who just found a way to get back at those uppity dwarves! Then, after a suitably kickass storyline, the HPoH gets defeated and Durkon gets ressurrected, just in time for the OOTS to get back on track and face Xykon at the final dungeon!

[Aquillion]

V has expressed reservations about whether Durkula is actually Durkon, here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0960.html). (In fact, reading carefully, V seems to be explicitly expressing a belief that they're separate people.)

[littlebum2002]

There is a far fetched, but plausible, theory that Durkon adopted Malacks domains of Death and Destruction and that is what the prophecy foretold. That Durkon would bring the power of the Death and Destruction domains, not actual death and destruction.

It's farfetched, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that those were Malacks two domains.

[ObadiahtheSlim]

Problem with the theory. We see a resurrected V when Durkon is casting from the scroll. This means he's using a scroll of sending and not resurrection. Second, they used scroll, singular. So it's just the one scroll. That means Durkon has a scroll of sending for emergency use and not resurrection.

[SirKazum]

There is a far fetched, but plausible, theory that Durkon adopted Malacks domains of Death and Destruction and that is what the prophecy foretold. That Durkon would bring the power of the Death and Destruction domains, not actual death and destruction.

It's farfetched, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that those were Malacks two domains.

Eh... that sounds a bit too "when the goat turns red strike true -> kill the chimera when it gets angry" (in other words, too underwhelming) to me. Maybe if it's one of two possible interpretations of the same prophecy - again, like the "goat turns red strike true" prophecy? Something like:

*Durkula arrives home*
High Priest of Odin: "Oh noes, you'll bring death and destruction here!"
Durkula: "It jus' so happens those are me two domains, so... guess that's it! Har har!"
HPoO: "Oh, that lovable rascal Odin! Tee hee! Here, creepy vampire friend, feel at home."
Durkula: "Thanks!" *proceeds to kill and destroy many and blame the trees*
HPoO: "Oops, guess the prophecy was literal after all! My bad!"
Everyone: *facepalm*

[gorocz]

Haley has (or had, prior to her shopping spree) at least 200,000 GP (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0680.html). 40,000 GP is a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world.

As others have already pointed out, 40k gp isn't the same as 40k gp worth of diamond dust.



When she just leveled up, she gained at least 9 skill points, which if she invested them all in UMD (again, a small price to pay to get you Cleric back in optimal (for them) condition for a fight against an epic lich who wants to take over the world)

A lich that can trap the dungeon behind himself as he has done in the past, meaning she wants to take a rank in spot, search and disarm as well. She is the party trapper, not the party artifice.



and +2 extra from Eagle's Splendor

Unless she already has that 4+ bonus to charisma from an item, which would make sense for a money loving rogue. Those bonuses don't stack.



, that gives her +18, and I think 33 is required for a Scroll of Resurrection. A magic item that gives +15 to UMD would be 22,500 GP. 62,500 GP is certainly a lot of money, I'd probably say you're right, it's not worth it. For a Rogue.

UMD boosting items are not really that common. It's up to individual DM's if they allow them made custom, but afaik there are not in the rulebooks. UMD is usually much rarer or "more valuable" than other skills, specifically for this reason.



However, all you need to find is a Cleric with at least 13 Wisdom (which makes 17 with Owl's Wisdom) and they only need to roll equal to the difference between Level 13 and their level. So if they can find, say, a Level 9 Cleric, they have a 1/625 chance of not resurrecting him given 4 scrolls. A 1/3125 chance if they have 5 scrolls. A 1/15,625 chance if they make 6 scrolls. And so what if you make too many scrolls? You can always just sell the remainder once the adventure is done.
Just a note here, the caster level check DC on scrolls is 1 + Caster Level of the spell, so 14, not 13. So that chance for a 9th level Cleric would be 1/256, 1/1024 and 1/4096 respectively, but your point still stands.

I think the main problem is the amount of diamond dust. Any less scrolls (3 scrolls would be a 1/64 chance for the 9th level cleric to screw it up, 2 would be 1/16) or any lower level cleric (8th level cleric would mean 1/123 with 4 scrolls, 1/37 with 3, 7th level is 1/66 and 1/23 respectively) and you have a decent chance to screw it up and end up with no cleric at all and how good a cleric can you really expect to be in a gnomish town? I think Roy would want to go with the bird in the hand, rather than with the two in the bush...

[Jaxzan Proditor]

The Order does have enough diamond dust for one Resurrection, since Durkon didn't use all of it on the Draketooths. However, I doubt they can acquire enough for four scrolls.

The theory that Durkon's vampirism is in some way related to his prophecies is an almost undisputed theory. Most people assume that the prophecy will be fulfilled in a literal fashion, from what a I've seen, though there are other predictions.

[kierthos]

The theory that Durkon's vampirism is in some way related to his prophecies is an almost undisputed theory. Most people assume that the prophecy will be fulfilled in a literal fashion, from what a I've seen, though there are other predictions.

Yeah, on an outside chance Xykon will attack the OotS when they're in the dwarven homelands and that will count for the prophecy, but that's slim.

[Peelee]

Yeah, on an outside chance Xykon will attack the OotS when they're in the dwarven homelands and that will count for the prophecy, but that's slim.

Aaaaand you've lost me.

[Keltest]

Aaaaand you've lost me.

Durkon returns, Xykon follows his group and causes mayhem. he "brought" Death and Destruction.

[SirKazum]

I'd guess they meant that Xykon will cause death and destruction upon the dwarves as collateral damage, as a result of attacking the OOTS when they're in the area, and the fact that Durkon is there makes it the fulfillment of the prophecy.

edit: Shadowdancer'd :smalltongue:

[Amphiox]

Eh... that sounds a bit too "when the goat turns red strike true -> kill the chimera when it gets angry" (in other words, too underwhelming) to me.

I thought "when the goat turns red strikes true" meant "when the goateed villain(Nale) betrays his brother, the redheaded rogue(Haley) will roll a natural 20 to make an impossible shot and save the day"....

[Jaxzan Proditor]

I thought "when the goat turns red strikes true" meant "when the goateed villain(Nale) betrays his brother, the redheaded rogue(Haley) will roll a natural 20 to make an impossible shot and save the day"....
Ultimately, yes. However, Roy and Vaarsuvius first came up with the hypothesis that it revered to Trigak's death, remarking that it would be a rather lame prophecy.

[SirKazum]

Yes (to Jaxzan), that's what I meant. If the prophecy is just that Durkon will walk into his homeland while having access to the Death and Destruction domains, that sounds kinda lame to me, just like the first interpretation of the "goat turns" prophecy (the one with the chimera) was. Rich could use that, then go "psych!" and have the prophecy be fulfilled "for real", but that would be retreading an already-used joke...

[littlebum2002]

Eh... that sounds a bit too "when the goat turns red strike true -> kill the chimera when it gets angry" (in other words, too underwhelming) to me. Maybe if it's one of two possible interpretations of the same prophecy - again, like the "goat turns red strike true" prophecy? Something like:

*Durkula arrives home*
High Priest of Odin: "Oh noes, you'll bring death and destruction here!"
Durkula: "It jus' so happens those are me two domains, so... guess that's it! Har har!"
HPoO: "Oh, that lovable rascal Odin! Tee hee! Here, creepy vampire friend, feel at home."
Durkula: "Thanks!" *proceeds to kill and destroy many and blame the trees*
HPoO: "Oops, guess the prophecy was literal after all! My bad!"
Everyone: *facepalm*

I think this is pretty much on the mark. I really doubt Malacks domains are a coincidence, but I also really doubt it's gonna be Durkon just showing up and everything is peaceful and he's just bringing those domains.

[Peelee]

I think this is pretty much on the mark. I really doubt Malacks domains are a coincidence, but I also really doubt it's gonna be Durkon just showing up and everything is peaceful and he's just bringing those domains.

Also, Malack's domains are not necessarily the vampire's domains. After all, Malack worshiped Nergal, and the vampire is a follower of Hel, who may not even have Destruction as a domain.

[Ninja Dragon]

I think if they REALLY wanted Durkon resurrected above all other things, they would fly for Cliffport and post a sign on a tavern wall that they were looking for a cleric who could resurrect a vampire. Even if they couldn't find one on hand, they could certainly get directions to one.

However getting Durkon resurrected is, at this point, not a pressing concern. They are trying it because the temples are conveniently located and theres little advantage to keeping him a vampire.

That's the point. With the whole "Xykon closer to the last gate than they are" thing, ressurecting Durkon is not a priority. Specially since he is cooperating, and there is little evidence, for people other than Belkar, that he is going to betray them.

If there is an easy way to do it, then fine. But if there is not, they absolutely can't afford to waste time on it.

[Elenna]

If Durkon is resurrected, would it be Durkon, or the HpoH controlling his newly un-vampirified body?

[Jaxzan Proditor]

If Durkon is resurrected, would it be Durkon, or the HpoH controlling his newly un-vampirified body?

It should be Durkon, since the resurrection spell would target his soul, not the High Priest of Hel.

[Coat]

Eh, makes no sense to destroy HPoH/raise Durkon now. Much smarter to push on to Kraagor's Tomb and do it there.


How many clerics, of any level, do you expect them to find at Kraagor's gate? My understanding was that it's a tomb filled with the nastiest creatures in the world (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0277.html), not a city.

At a tomb filled with the nastiest creatures in the world? It'll be a blooming holiday park! High level adventurers will be queuing for hours just to get close to the entrance.

Stand by the entrance to Kraagor's tomb and hurl a rock: the resulting cries of 'Heal' will deafen you.

[Kish]

It's farfetched, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that those were Malacks two domains.
It's not a coincidence because it's not anything. Nergal was a god of death and destruction (and thus Rich described Malack as a cleric of Death and Destruction), but Malack never mentioned what his domains were, nor did he cast any domain-exclusive spells, nor demonstrate the granted power of any domain. If all Nergal's priests have the Death and Destruction domains Nergal is the only god I ever heard of who grants so few domains*.

*Also, the High Priest of Hel isn't even a cleric of Nergal, which means Malack's domains really have nothing to do with Durkon's; Malack chose two domains from the probably four to six domains Nergal offers, the High Priest chose two domains from the probably four to six domains Hel offers. It is likely that both of them offered Death and Destruction as choices, along with Evil...quite possibly Fire for Nergal considering that his fiery rage heralds the end of all things...Law if either of them (the deities) is Lawful Evil but not if they're Neutral Evil (if Hel gets all undead dwarves by special dispensation but is Chaotic Evil, she probably offers the Chaos domain but her Lawful Evil high priest would not be able to take it...), maybe a Dwarf domain for Hel...anyway.

[SirKazum]

*Also, the High Priest of Hel isn't even a cleric of Nergal, which means Malack's domains really have nothing to do with Durkon's; Malack chose two domains from the probably four to six domains Nergal offers, the High Priest chose two domains from the probably four to six domains Hel offers. It is likely that both of them offered Death and Destruction as choices, along with Evil...quite possibly Fire for Nergal considering that his fiery rage heralds the end of all things...Law if either of them (the deities) is Lawful Evil but not if they're Neutral Evil (if Hel gets all undead dwarves by special dispensation but is Chaotic Evil, she probably offers the Chaos domain but her Lawful Evil high priest would not be able to take it...), maybe a Dwarf domain for Hel...anyway.

Or, if Rich strictly follows the book (which admittedly isn't a given, even less so when it comes to vampires), both Malack and HPoH select two domains between Chaos, Destruction, Evil, or Trickery. (See here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/vampire.htm), under "Vampire Characters / Clerics".

[Porthos]

It's farfetched, but I also don't think it's a coincidence that those were Malacks two domains.

You might be looking at it from the wrong angle. It might not be a coincidence that Nergal had the domains Death and Destruction. But the fact that it is not a coincidence could be that.... Rich put it in as a red herring.

He knows his fanbase, after all. So introducing a cleric of a death god that worshiped Death and Destruction was sure to get a segment of the base speculating that said cleric would be involved somehow with the prophecy regarding the death and destruction.

And so we did. Endlessly. :smalltongue:

That said cleric did end up being involved, just not in the way we might have initially thought just shows Rich's chops at being a writer. :smallwink: