Any one else think this is kind of odd?

[Rowan Wolf]

I was thinking about how they chose to have Rangers have a spells known list while, the Paladin is a spells prepared class. It almost seem like that decision was made more for the sake of difference than for any other reasons. The Paladin being a Charisma based caster only kind of compounds this issue a bit for me.

So as the title states anyone else find it odd?

[Edge of Dreams]

Yeah, it's pretty odd.

Honestly, I kind of wish they would have just gone with EITHER spells known OR spells prepared as one unified mechanic across all casters. As it is, it's just too confusing for new players to read so many different implementations of spellcasting that are extremely similar but not quite the same.

[Rowan Wolf]

I never thought about how the differences would effect new players as most of my experience teaching an edition to players was third (partially because its release made it easier to find the needed books and THAC0 made my friends make unhealthy faces)

Another note is they kind of opened up the same problem that 3.0/3.5/Pathfinder has as in adding spells in splat books will basically be power creep to divine prepared casters as they get access to those spells with only the cost of a long rest switch.

[Celcey]

As a completely new player, I didn't find the mechanics confusing at all. I think the prepared spells are necessary, both to differentiate flavor-wise, and (more importantly) to keep it balanced. Look at the wizard spell list. Do you think it would be fair to give them access to every spell on that list all the time?

I do wonder at the paladin being charisma based and prepping, but I guess they do get their power from sew here, be it a god or nature or whatever, so maybe that's why they have to prep.

[Camman1984]

I think its give a flavour of the class, the ranger is more independant, casting the spells he knows when he needs them.

The paladin on the other hand is entirely linked to his god (like the cleric) and has to ask permission for the spells each day. The reward for such piety is greater flexibility.

[Keko]

Yeah I was quite bugged seeing that ranger had spell known.
And it is quite unfair I think: ranger is supposed (at least in my mind) to shine in utility and his spell list apart archery spells and a few others are generally situational (speak with plant/animals, detect poison, animal messanger, beast sense, locate creature/object, just to name some).
With so few spell known you'll probably want to take the often useful spells (hunter's mark, at least some archery) and the others are situational so they won't often come up but more often you'll be the ranger who can't (never ever) speak with animals or commune with nature.
Also, is the only divine caster with known spells, the ones with spell known are generally cha-based arcane casters.
I could accept spontaneous paladins as their list is more adapt for it (for every level there are smite spells but is enough to know one or two, the other can be buffs) but still I prefer arcane casters with spell known and divine casters knowing all the list, so the two sources of magic are more clearly defined.

Actually in the game I'm DMing I changed the ranger to cast as druids but they just reached level 4 so as now he has always prepared the same spells. But if the need arises he will be able to change and I doubt this will create balance issues.

As a side note am I the only one bugged that they took expertise from the ranger but the bard has it? The bard should be the jack of all trades one so having expertise too isn't a contradiction?

(I admit ranger is always one of my favourite classes :smallredface: )

[Person_Man]

I think it nerfs the Ranger, which is sad, because the Ranger is arguably already the weakest class at certain levels. (Although this can be highly DM and play style dependent).

My opinion is that all of the spellcaster lists should have been more like the 3.5 Beguiler or Dread Necromancer. You know everything on your list and can cast any of the spells you know spontaneously, but your list is balanced and focused on specific roles. I would have no problem with a house rule that just let Rangers, Paladins, Arcane Tricksters, and Eldritch Knights cast all of their spells known. They have very limited uses per day, and they scale poorly compared to full casters.

[Fwiffo86]

I come from the age of Rangers being able to cast Magic-User spells AND druid spells, so no, this doesn't seem odd to me at all.

7th 8th and 9th level cleric spells - that's odd.

[Amnoriath]

Yes, it really is especially when the Paladin can easily have 20+ spells known vs. the Ranger's 11. I think the reason why is they felt they gave lots of base utility on the Ranger chasis even if it is only against certain foes, terrain, and/or situations. I also think they wanted to stay away from Gods, Oaths, academics..etc and keep to a self-reliant flavor even if in most cases it is worse.
An easy way to balance this without going against the intentions would be to stick at a dead level a specified amount of spells they can prepare for the day.

[Louro]

I feel like the paladin is the weakest class now. You are still heavily tied to your god/oath, which comes with a lot of limitations to your RP, but you don't get anything really special for that cost.
In 2nd edition they were extremely powerfully to compensate the straightforward social role you were forced to play.

Rangers in the other hand are still independent, just avoid burning forests and you should be fine, although if the campaign takes place mostly in city environment he is a bit... out of place.

[Edge of Dreams]

I feel like the paladin is the weakest class now. You are still heavily tied to your god/oath, which comes with a lot of limitations to your RP, but you don't get anything really special for that cost.
In 2nd edition they were extremely powerfully to compensate the straightforward social role you were forced to play.

Um, really? Paladins can have the highest AC in the game at low levels (Chain Mail eventually upgraded to Plate Mail, a shield, Defense fighting style, Shield of Faith spell) AND have incredible amounts of nova damage via Divine Smite. How about taking Oath of the Ancients and getting resistance to all damage from spells? How about adding your Charisma modifier to all your saving throws?

5e Paladins are badass.

[Rowan Wolf]

Edge shows on the doll where the Paladin smote you.

Just kidding, I hope this thread doesn't turn into this is better than that one. I just found the designer's choice there to be kind of odd and at least to me seemed made only to really make the Ranger stand out different from the Paladin.

I guess this might be more of a issue with the ranger being all over the place as an archetype. You got some that are that independent wilderness guy/gal, but some were the Paladin to the Druid's Cleric. Maybe they want the Oath of the Ancient to be that role instead.

[Ashrym]

It's part of the focus on characterization over optimization. Rangers choosing known spells downplay their magical aspect and customizes character concepts while paladins draw attention to spellcasting with oath spells and spell preparation.

This creates the opportunity for more subtle magic rangers for those players who want to take the magic out of their ranger.

*based on developer comments during and after playtest with personal interpretation and opinion

[Rowan Wolf]

It would seem to me that in doing that they should have left the Expertise option in the ranger class to at least give them something.

[Ashrym]

It would seem to me that in doing that they should have left the Expertise option in the ranger class to at least give them something.

The get expertise based on several skills within favored terrain, and advantage on some check with favored enemies. They have both tracking favored enemies in their favored terrain. What they don't have is the ability to decide in which skills they have such bonuses but the total number of checks is higher than classes with expertise, just limited by area.

The easiest thing to do is simply splash 1 level of rogue because the capstone isn't so great and then skills are widened plus expertise.

[silveralen]

After level 11 you really have no reason not to take a level or two in rogue as ranger, so yeah that's not an awful idea. Or take a few in bard. Or the rest in bard.

Actually.... just play a valor bard instead. Ranger sadly manages to be that lame this time around.

[Amnoriath]

After level 11 you really have no reason not to take a level or two in rogue as ranger, so yeah that's not an awful idea. Or take a few in bard. Or the rest in bard.

Actually.... just play a valor bard instead. Ranger sadly manages to be that lame this time around.

While the Bard this time around has the tools to be good at quite a few things this time, a base Bard can't benefit from its own inspiration die. Only a 14th level Lore Bard can. While they can get Haste it is concentration just like a few of the good ranger spells. So, they can't stack and only end up getting a few needed proficiencies, a bonus rider for others in battle, an extra attack, and an attack with a spell for your turn. While it makes up the difference for a fighting character it doesn't fully replace a Ranger.

[Person_Man]

I feel like the paladin is the weakest class now.

You may have missed a few mechanical benefits that you don't necessarily pick up on the first time you read the Paladin.

1) You can burn a spell to use the Smite ability, while also casting any of the Paladin's Smite related spells (which are a bonus action to cast, and add 1d8 to 5d8ish damage plus a status effect), and at high enough level you also add another 1d8 automatically to every attack, and if you took the Great Weapon Fighting style you also re-roll any 1 or 2, plus if you're lucky and its a critical hit all of the damage dice are rolled twice. This gives them some of the best burst damage in the game (albeit only a very few times per day), on par with an Assassin Rogue, Fighter (Action Surge), or Sorcerer (Metamagic).

2) Find Steed (Paladin 2) spell gives you a permanent special mount with the Share Spells ability. Your spell list has a number of other gems on it as well, like Bless, Command, Crusader's Mantle, and Shield of Faith.

3) Your Auras are very potent, and apply to all allies near to you (and your mount). Making everyone near you 25%ish more likely to pass Saves and have Resistance to Magic is a big deal.

Having said that, I think there's not many reasons to take Paladin beyond mid levels. (A problem that also befalls all other non-full casters). But its a solid class.