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Nowhere Girl
2007-03-31, 06:36 PM
I touched on my ideas on this in another thread, but it occurred to me that I perhaps should really make a separate one just for this. This issue that concerns me here is as follows: Forcecage, as written, is a "must-have" tool in the Iwinzard toolbox. It allows no spell resistance and no save, it starts out lasting longer than a full day, and combined with Dimensional Lock, it's virtually inescapable for non-casters. It allows a caster to basically render a powerful opponent instantly helpless and then destroy said opponent at his or her leisure.

(Ab)used properly, it is -- in a word -- too good, even given the costly material component.

Okay, none of that is news, so let's get to my proposed fix:

First of all, force effects seem to be purely magical and specifically not "things." Magic Missile -- a force effect -- is a perfect example. Purely magical. The missiles are not "things" of any kind. And ... sure enough ... spell resistance works on them.

"Ah," you say, "but Magic Missile is an attack! It's direct, whereas Forcecage is not!"

That's true. But then what about Bigby's Interposing Hand? It's a force effect, too, and unlike Magic Missile, it's neither an attack nor direct. Sure, it appears "between you and one opponent," but it doesn't pursue or harass the opponent, or even really try to touch him or her. It just indirectly gets in the way. And ... spell resistance applies.

And what does Forcecage do? The same thing: it indirectly gets in the way. Logically, following the pattern already established by every other force effect save for Wall of Force (which should also be changed to spell resistance: yes), spell resistance should apply. The only other way to make all of these spells agree with one another would be to change all of them to spell resistance: no. That would also make them consistent. Raise your hand if you think wizards need more power.

Setting spell resistance aside for a moment, let's look at the physical weaknesses in Wall of Force (and, by extension, Forcecage). Yes, physical weaknesses. There's an epic usage of Escape Artist that allows slipping through a Wall of Force ... but, admittedly, that's probably not really going to help anyone who isn't around level 80 or so. However, it establishes a precedent (the wall isn't perfectly impenetrable), which is further supported by the Legendary Dreadnought's special usage of the Unstoppable ability, which allows a DC 32 Strength check to break(!!) a Wall of Force. Since that ability also grants the Legendary Dreadnought a +20 to the Strength check to do it, I don't think it's unreasonable to extend that and say that anyone can break a Wall of Force with a DC 32 Strength check. That's not really as unreasonable as it sounds at first, since nobody else is going to get that +20 to the check, so you're looking at needing a +12 bonus from Strength, or a Strength score of at least 34, to have any chance whatsoever of doing this. And at 34 Strength, you still need a natural 20.

Finally, consider the Evasion ability. It allows a Reflex Save to escape all damage from spells that normally only allow a save for half (such as Fireball and Lightning Bolt) -- spells that are normally "impossible" to completely avoid because they're either big blasts (Fireball) or just too fast (Lightning Bolt). Admittedly, there's not much direct prececent for it, but given how Evasion works, I think it'd not hard to imagine a character with it being able to "evade" a Forcecage. It's a physical effect that suddenly impacts an area -- not unlike Fireball in that respect. It probably appears very suddenly, but hello, so does a Lightning Bolt -- around one-third to one-half the speed of light, anyone? If you can completely evade that ...

With those balancing options in place, I'd also consider changing the Forcecage material component to a focus. It would still be a very, very powerful spell -- as a 7th-level spell should be -- but at least it would not be quite the "I always win" spell that it currently is against non-casters who don't happen to be Colossal-sized.

Okay, it's just an idea. I can already see the flames building. I'm going to go hide now. :smalleek:

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-31, 06:50 PM
SR: Yes and breakable with a DC 32 Strength check, in exchange for turning the material component into a focus?

Hell, that just makes it better. Without the focus, those qualifiers don't matter much--a wizard can and will beat SR (all adding SR: Yes does is let golems walk through Walls of Force and Forcecages, really), and while that strength check could eventually be made, the forcecage is very likely to keep you busy long enough for the wizard to killify you.

Nowhere Girl
2007-03-31, 06:53 PM
SR: Yes and breakable with a DC 32 Strength check, in exchange for turning the material component into a focus?

Hell, that just makes it better. Without the focus, those qualifiers don't matter much--a wizard can and will beat SR (all adding SR: Yes does is let golems walk through Walls of Force and Forcecages, really), and while that strength check could eventually be made, the forcecage is very likely to keep you busy long enough for the wizard to killify you.

Well, there are other things I'd want to do as well, such as completely disallow Assay Spell Resistance, which is a broken "neener neener" ability, ironically created to fight so-called "neener neener" abilities. If you want to beat spell resistance, you have a caster level check. Period. If you want to be better at it, you have Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration. Assay Spell Resistance is grossly unfair and breaks entire class features (Diamond Soul).

I'm also not sure about the focus part. I'd only ... consider ... it. And maybe not.

ken-do-nim
2007-03-31, 07:01 PM
I just wanted to chime in and say I really like your thinking. Yes, all the spells of a specific type should work the same way; I'm going to use this. Spell resistance should always allow you to bypass a force effect.

Btw, I've decided that I *cannot* DM 3.5 as written. I have gone through my 3.5 disillusionment phase and with a heavy sigh I have decided to create a lengthy house rules document just like I had in 1st edition. So fixes like this really help. Thanks!

Edit: Also, a rod of cancellation should be able to cancel any force effect. Most of the force effect spells already have this listed. I know blade barrier doesn't, but it should. If forcecage doesn't list a rod of cancellation then I'd add it to that too.

I'm currently working on fixes for touch & ranged touch spells myself. I'm comparing the 3.5 versions to how they worked in 2nd edition, which btw I am looking back and thinking was the most balanced version of D&D.

Edit 2: Notice in wall of stone that it says a reflex save is granted if you try to trap a mobile opponent with the wall. Makes sense that would go for forcecage as well.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-31, 07:28 PM
Wall of Stone is poorly written. For example, making the reflex save doesn't move them out of the area, explicitly. So, does it? Do they get to pick where to? Do I? Can you use this to move your party members around, if they make their saves?

greenknight
2007-03-31, 07:38 PM
I like the idea of allowing SR and a Reflex save. The DC 32 Strength check should also work, but it's so high I don't see that as a significant weakness for the spell. Someone suggested allowing trapped characters to destroy the forcecage, which I think is a good idea. Make it Hardness 15 (bypassed only by magic and adamantine weapons) with 20 HP. Unlike normal items, if the Forcecage isn't destroyed in a single attack, it immediately regenerates to full strength.

This means that characters with SR have some chance of resisting the spell, characters with high Reflex saves (like Rogues and Monks) can avoid it, and characters with Power Attack and a magical Adamantine weapon which can be used two handed (definately possible at the level Forcecage would be around) can Sunder it with a single attack. Then you probably could change it to a Focus rather than an expensive material component.

martyboy74
2007-03-31, 07:42 PM
DC 32? High? Are you kidding me? Any half-decent fighter build can make that without breaking a sweat.

Bears With Lasers
2007-03-31, 07:48 PM
DC 32 Strength check. A high-level human fighter will have at most, what, 18 base STR (more likely 16) + 5 from levels + 5 from a Tome + 6 from an item, for an STR of 34. That's +12. He needs to roll a 20.

greenknight
2007-03-31, 07:52 PM
DC 32 Strength check. A high-level human fighter will have at most, what, 18 base STR (more likely 16) + 5 from levels + 5 from a Tome + 6 from an item, for an STR of 34. That's +12. He needs to roll a 20.

I was thinking exactly the same thing. I'm guessing martyboy74 allows a lot of other boosts to ability scores through custom magical items.

Dausuul
2007-03-31, 09:53 PM
I like giving it a Reflex save. If you make the save, you end up in the nearest square that is outside of the forcecage (if there are multiple squares that are equally close, you can pick where you land). At that point, it's effectively a finger of death that gives a Reflex save instead of a Fort save and has an expensive material component.

Yes, you can move your fellow PCs around with this. If you really want to blow a 7th-level spell and 1,500 gold to move another character ten feet...

Corolinth
2007-03-31, 10:13 PM
Someone sounds bitter about getting beaten by a wizard in NWN2.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-01, 12:35 AM
Someone sounds bitter about getting beaten by a wizard in NWN2.

I've never even played NWN2 (I have played the first one -- in fact, I play on Amia :smallsmile: ).

I just put this here to share my brainstorm with others, both for their benefit (they can use my ideas if they like them) and mine (I get to look for constructive criticism and take it into account). So far, I'm pleasantly surprised to find it well-received. :smallsmile:

As an aside, with respect to Assay Spell Resistance, I would personally only ever consider allowing that spell as, possibly, an epic spell. Even then, it's more than twice as powerful as a two-feat resistance-breaking chain and still more powerful than an epic feat: Epic Spell Penetration. Even if it were a 9th-level spell requiring a full round to cast, I'd be looking really hard at it. What's next? Assay Armor Class? Assay Hit Points? Perhaps Assay Initiative? Oh, I forgot, that spell actually exists; it's just called Celerity. Another spell to look at, laugh about, and then say, "Not a chance in hell" to any player asking about taking it. :smallamused:

Corolinth
2007-04-01, 01:34 AM
Except that it lasts 1 round per level (as opposed to the feats that are always active), only effects one target (as opposed to the feats which apply the bonus to everything), and requires you use a fourth level spell slot to memorize it (requiring you planned on having to use it), or use up a known spell as a sorcerer (which you only get four, barring epic feats).

So no, the spell isn't nearly so powerful as you seem to think.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-01, 02:20 AM
Except that it lasts 1 round per level (as opposed to the feats that are always active)

... and it casts as a swift action. You're a wizard. You're probably using "save or lose" or "save or suck" spells, right? How many rounds do you really need?


only effects one target (as opposed to the feats which apply the bonus to everything)

... until you get your 7th-level slots and start using it with Chain Spell. "Look, a group of drow! They all have spell resistance!" *snaps fingers* "Well, they used to."


and requires you use a fourth level spell slot to memorize it (requiring you planned on having to use it)

You mean you'd actually consider not having this spell somehow handy?


or use up a known spell as a sorcerer (which you only get four, barring epic feats).

Again, if you're a sorcerer, and this spell is open to you, and you don't take it, well ... you can also choose not to take Time Stop, but that doesn't make the spell less broken.


So no, the spell isn't nearly so powerful as you seem to think.

No, it's probably more powerful. I'm not nearly as good at this Iwinzard stuff as Tippy yet. I'm still learning how it works.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 02:35 AM
... until you get your 7th-level slots and start using it with Chain Spell. "Look, a group of drow! They all have spell resistance!" *snaps fingers* "Well, they used to."
There are other, better uses of 7th-level slots.



You mean you'd actually consider not having this spell somehow handy?
I play diviners, so, no. But I'm not gonna have four copies memorized. I have other things to do with my fourth-level slots.


Again, if you're a sorcerer, and this spell is open to you, and you don't take it, well ... you can also choose not to take Time Stop, but that doesn't make the spell less broken.
There are a whole LOT of fourth-level spells. Assay Spell Resistance, Polymorph and Confusion, say? You're missing out on Enervation, Black Tentacles, D-Door, Solid Fog, Greater Invisibility, Orb of X... to take a spell that's very situational (after all, a good caster can already beat SR most of the time; Assay Resistance is only for enemies with SR that is significantly above the norm isn't a good idea for a sorcerer.

Assay Spell Resistance is good. It negates the strength of a certain kind of enemy. It is NOT so good that it should be memorized more than once or twice, or even on a daily basis if you're not a diviner. Against most enemies, it won't help you at all. It's a situationally very useful spell, great. There are a bunch of those.

marjan
2007-04-01, 03:26 AM
... until you get your 7th-level slots and start using it with Chain Spell. "Look, a group of drow! They all have spell resistance!" *snaps fingers* "Well, they used to."


And realize that Assay Resistance is personal spell and can't be chained.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-01, 06:46 AM
I agree that assay resistance is situational and isn't nearly as broken as at first glance, but ... the feat arcane mastery is. That's where you just take 10 on spell penetration and dispel magic checks. Sorry to go off topic, just wanted to mention that.

Edit: I change my mind. Assay resistance is totally, completely broken. Since it is situational, a sorcerer will rarely take it, but a wizard ... that's another story. Know you'll be going up against the BBEG? Memorize it, and you can be guaranteed to neutralize his or her spell resistance. All at the cost of a swift action, so you don't even have to waste a turn doing so.

nyjastul69
2007-04-01, 07:45 AM
I think Forcecage is a bit overrated. It's a good spell, but I don't think it's broken. Where in the spell description does it state that it renders a creature helpless?

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 07:54 AM
The part where it creates a 10' cube with no way (barring extradimesional travel) out. Then the wizard hits them with a Dimensional Anchor. Unless they have a disintegrate, rod of cancellation, or dispel magic and teleport, they're totally screwed, and at the wizard's mercy.

nyjastul69
2007-04-01, 08:11 AM
From the SRD:

Helpless: A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (–5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.


Forcecage doesn't impose this condition. Nothing in the spell description stops a creature from acting. It certainly stops some actions, but not most, or all actions.

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 08:36 AM
...it's figurative language...

nyjastul69
2007-04-01, 08:54 AM
I apologize then. It seemed otherwise to me.

Talya
2007-04-01, 08:55 AM
Oooh. This thread had me marginally worried. I would NEVER take a spell with a 1500gp component as a sorceror spell. In fact, i'm partial to spells without components at all. or even focuses, but I certainly don't limit myself to those.

But suddenly remembering i've always got a metric ton of castings of disintegrate handy means any wizard who forcecage's me is spending 1500gp to get me to waste a 6th level spell slot.

squishycube
2007-04-01, 10:43 AM
Well not helpless as in Helpless (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#helpless), but you might as well be.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-01, 11:09 AM
I play diviners, so, no. But I'm not gonna have four copies memorized. I have other things to do with my fourth-level slots.

Well I never said four copies. :smalltongue:


And realize that Assay Resistance is personal spell and can't be chained.

Oops. You're right actually. For some reason, I managed to miss that.

Well gee. Since it's "only" almost twice as powerful as a three-feat spell-resistance breaking chain ending in an epic feat, and since it requires a whole swift action to set up and eats up a massive 4th-level spell slot, I guess it's just fine after all since it can only be used against one powerful opponent who has the spell resistance that's giving you fits and not the hordes of mooks who don't. Silly me. :smallamused:

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-01, 11:17 AM
Oooh. This thread had me marginally worried. I would NEVER take a spell with a 1500gp component as a sorceror spell. In fact, i'm partial to spells without components at all. or even focuses, but I certainly don't limit myself to those.

But suddenly remembering i've always got a metric ton of castings of disintegrate handy means any wizard who forcecage's me is spending 1500gp to get me to waste a 6th level spell slot.

Forcecage isn't an instant win against casters; it's an instant win against non-casters. When fighting other casters, you'll have to actually work a little since they're potentially mortal demigods, too.

The complaint with Forcecage is that you're basically required to be a spellcaster to have any chance against it. (Yes, I know you can walk around buried up to your eyeballs in Rods of Cancellation, Potions of Gaseous Form, and even Scrolls of Disentigrate if you happen to have access to UMD, but let's pretend for a moment that non-caster classes -- even the ones with UMD -- have something they're supposed to be doing with their money besides just trying to become spellcaster lites. :smallamused:)

Well ... that, and the other complaint is that neither it nor Wall of Force are consistent with any other force effect, all of which are otherwise subject to spell resistance. So it's both a game-balance issue and a consistency issue.

Corolinth
2007-04-01, 06:00 PM
Forcecage isn't an instant win unless you use the barred cage, and want to throw a fireball inside of it. Of course if you do that, whoever's inside can shoot arrows through the bars. Forcecage is an instant, "Time to retreat!" Furthermore, it's way too expensive to be employed on a whim. It's a spell you plan to need. Allow me to explain to you the flaw in your example.

You're using Forcecage. Then you're following it up with Dimensional Lock (8th level spell, which seems to allow SR). You could use Dimensional Anchor, but you're probably not hitting your target through a barred cage, and you're definitely not getting it through the windowless version. So you've just used a 7th and an 8th level spell slot to trap someone for about a day (duration of Forcecage). You're escaping. If you've used a windowless cage, you can't attack them. If you've used a barred cage, anyone inside with a means of escape that requires you use Dimensional Lock has a way to hurt you (be it a spellcaster or a powerful fiend). If you've gone through that much trouble to get an instant win, when you could have used some less expensive method... Let me put it this way, if you've blown those spell slots just to trap something within a 20x20 square, and you're sticking around to kill it, you've got some serious guns. You were probably better off using different spells to begin with. Either that, or you're just trying to make sure a balor or a pit fiend doesn't escape while you finish it off - either of which can still hurt you through the forcecage. You're trying to match it spell for spell, only your enemy has more hit points, better saves, spell resistance, and energy resistance. This isn't your instant win scenario. You've already had a major ruckus, your companions got the snot beat out of them, and this is you making damn sure the villain doesn't get away to terrorize another city.

Alternatively Forcecage is used against you, in that the bad guy wizard locks your mean nasty fighter in a cage so that swords = no touchy (which is smart). Now, the fact that the bad guy wizard can and will do this is taken into account to determine his CR. Also, although your big mean fighter is locked in a forcecage, that doesn't say anything about maybe the gaming group's rogue and cleric. So that wizard, who probably has 60hp or so, still has huge problems. Alternatively, for everybody with a hard-on for the mean and invincible CoDzilla, it's the cleric in the cage, which means that there's a fighter on the loose, and the bad guy still has a big problem. Then there's also the fact that a cleric could conceivably cast a summon monster spell and make the critter appear outside the cage.

So Forcecage takes a seventh level spell slot, and costs 1500gp in order to not be the solution to all of life's problems.

Want another instant win? Reverse Gravity doesn't check SR, either. No real save either, unless the victims are standing near a handhold. Just reverse gravity in the middle of a grassy field, walk away, and wait for the spell to expire. Barring magical items that grant levitation or flight, they're not going anywhere. Falling damage probably won't kill anyone at that level, but they won't be a problem.

So far, the only actual "issue" you've raised is that the Bigby's Hand spells probably shouldn't check SR. Well, that and you don't like casters. I'm guessing you play a monk, and you're cheesed that your high saves and spell resistance don't effectively make you immune to magic. Either that or you're running a campaign where you're too nice to your PCs. Don't worry, I've made that mistake, too. I really need to wear away their resources more and make them think before they start blowing up stuff with fireballs. But I at least understand that my woes regarding my PCs is largely my fault.

Frankly, the problem is the way fights in D&D tend to play out. Most fights end up being three rounds long. That's because you don't have many anymore, unless you're in a large dungeon with wandering monster tables. Incidentally, Neverwinter Nights is the main (and perhaps sole) reason why Bull's Strength and similar spells had their durations reduced from 1hr/level to 1min/level. Spellcasters are enormously powerful in computer games where you can rest after every fight. Once they've gone several encounters without a chance to rest, the rules regarding daily spell slots starts to bring them into balance.

Now, I'm not sure what Chain Spell is. It's not an archmage high arcana, and I can't find it on either my feats index or my spell indices that I picked up off of Crystalkeep. It's not a core rulebook item (PH, DMG, MM), that much I'm sure of. It's something new out of one of the rules supplements released this year, I'm going to guess Complete Mage or PHII. Guess what that means? It means that no player is entitled to it. It means if a DM decides it doesn't fit his campaign, you don't get it. A lot of people who bitch about munchkin spell/feat/class ability/magic item combinations, usually really specific builds that rely on a series of events that would never actually come to fruition over a year at the gaming table, tend to forget that all of the stuff in those spiffy rules supplements are entirely optional. Yes, this means that Assay Spell Resistance is likewise optional, and any caster wanting to take it is completely at the mercy of whether his or her DM wants to allow it. Frankly, from time to time, I regret allowing my firebunny sorceress to take a PrC out of Faiths and Pantheons that raises her charisma, and I also sometimes regret allowing her to have one of the Orb of [Energy Subtype] spells.

I'm sure there is some combination of spells and effects that she could use to provide a +10 bonus to pierce spell resistance on a number of creatures and then fireball them (it would be wasted spells, but that's another story). Or, rather than use up a 4th and a 7th level spell slot to use 3rd level spell slot to fireball, she could just use up one 3rd level slot to haste the ranger, paladin, and cleric. Frankly, between her and the party's bard, that's probably all the more she needs to do.

Basically, what you're griping about is that if you end up in a duel against a wizard who has the right spells for the job memorized, you're toast. Regardless of SR, regardless of saves, you're toast. Well, see, that's sort of the bone of being a wizard. You have to plan your fights. You have to know enough about your enemies to know exactly what spells to memorize, and what you're going to cast. That's the advantage of having a high intelligence. The disadvantages are that your saves suck, and you have jack for hit points. Traditionally, guess who dies in the first level campaign and ends up having to roll a new character? So yes, upper level wizard spells are going to seem ridiculously powerful. You started off with a bunch of cantrips, two first level spells, and one or two first level spell slots. You had 4-6 hit points, and no AC. You sucked. You got neater tricks, but had severe limitations on how many spells you could memorize. You spent a year a the gaming table watching everyone else be heroic, while you pretty much sat on the sidelines. So yes, high level arcane spells are nasty. And if you plan your day out, and select your daily spell setup intelligently, you're a powerful archwizard who can turn the tide of any battle. If you pick the wrong spells, you're a sitting duck. Furthermore, no spell is a one size fits all. Not even Assay Spell Resistance or Forcecage.

The_Snark
2007-04-01, 06:09 PM
Forcecage isn't an instant win unless you use the barred cage, and want to throw a fireball inside of it. Of course if you do that, whoever's inside can shoot arrows through the bars. Forcecage is an instant, "Time to retreat!" Furthermore, it's way too expensive to be employed on a whim. It's a spell you plan to need. Allow me to explain to you the flaw in your example.

You're using Forcecage. Then you're following it up with Dimensional Lock (8th level spell, which seems to allow SR). You could use Dimensional Anchor, but you're probably not hitting your target through a barred cage, and you're definitely not getting it through the windowless version. So you've just used a 7th and an 8th level spell slot to trap someone for about a day (duration of Forcecage). You're escaping. If you've used a windowless cage, you can't attack them. If you've used a barred cage, anyone inside with a means of escape that requires you use Dimensional Lock has a way to hurt you (be it a spellcaster or a powerful fiend). If you've gone through that much trouble to get an instant win, when you could have used some less expensive method... Let me put it this way, if you've blown those spell slots just to trap something within a 20x20 square, and you're sticking around to kill it, you've got some serious guns. You were probably better off using different spells to begin with. Either that, or you're just trying to make sure a balor or a pit fiend doesn't escape while you finish it off - either of which can still hurt you through the forcecage. You're trying to match it spell for spell, only your enemy has more hit points, better saves, spell resistance, and energy resistance. This isn't your instant win scenario. You've already had a major ruckus, your companions got the snot beat out of them, and this is you making damn sure the villain doesn't get away to terrorize another city.

So once you've used the windowless cage option of Forcecage, your only option is to run away? I can see several other uses. The first one that comes to mind is using Forcecage+Dimension Lock against an enemy that you know is going to be hard, then resting for 8 hours to regain spells, health, etc. Your enemy regains health and spells too, if they were damaged, but in general it's more likely that a damaged party will come across an undamaged enemy than vice versa. More than that, the Wizard who cast Forcecage now knows exactly what he's fighting, can prepare appropriate spells, and has several hours to spend prepping the battlefield and buffing him and his party members. That's basically perfect conditions for a wizard.

Talya
2007-04-01, 06:12 PM
Either that or you're running a campaign where you're too nice to your PCs. Don't worry, I've made that mistake, too. I really need to wear away their resources more and make them think before they start blowing up stuff with fireballs. But I at least understand that my woes regarding my PCs is largely my fault.
..... Frankly, from time to time, I regret allowing my firebunny sorceress to take a PrC out of Faiths and Pantheons that raises her charisma, and I also sometimes regret allowing her to have one of the Orb of [Energy Subtype] spells.


Nowhere girl, stop arguing with my DM.

He's saying scary ****.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 06:21 PM
Corolinth, you trap them in a windowless cube with a Cloudkill or something similar. Mmm, CON damage.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-01, 06:26 PM
Corolinth, you have no idea what you are talking about. The way you use forcecage as an instant win is: Quickened Disjunction, Maximized Timestop Dimensional Lock, Maximized Cloudkill, Forcecage.

The odds of a fighters items saving against the disjunction are horrible. The fighter is now trapped in a cage with a cloudkill and they can't be teleported out because of the dimensional lock. The cloudkill does a minimum of 2 Con damage per round and lasts 200 rounds.


You can do the above 4 times per day. And when you run low on money you just go and solo a dragon to get some more for the ruby dust.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-01, 06:31 PM
Mage's Disjunction is a 9th level spell. How are you quickening it four times a day? Time Stop is also a 9th level spell. How are you maximizing it four times per day? How are you casting both quickened Disjunction AND maximized Time Stop four times each at the same time? Also, soloing a dragon is generally suicidal. Unless it's a very stupid dragon.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 06:35 PM
Three times a day, not four, via Greater Metamagic rods. 3 disjunctions + 3 timestops = 6 9th level spells, which a specialist can have (he needs to be an Abjurer or a Transmuter, or have a Pearl of Power IX, which is 81k of the 760k ECL 20 WBL).

Soloing a dragon isn't suicidal, especially if it isn't expecting you. Dispel, Irresistable Dance + Arcane Reach, bam. You've pretty much won.

Talya
2007-04-01, 06:36 PM
Mage's Disjunction is a 9th level spell. How are you quickening it four times a day? Time Stop is also a 9th level spell. How are you maximizing it four times per day? How are you casting both quickened Disjunction AND maximized Time Stop four times each at the same time? Also, soloing a dragon is generally suicidal. Unless it's a very stupid dragon.



If you have to cast two ninth level spells, a 7th level spell, a maximized 5th level spell, spend 1500gp on a material component, and have metamagic rods even then, just to kill a fighter, you're doing something wrong. Heck, he's got no will save. Just dominate his ass.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 06:41 PM
That's "guaranteed" vs. "potential". A fighter can work up an okay Will save if he splurges on Wisdom, or with noncore feats like Steadfast Determination and the like.

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 06:42 PM
Or if he's a diamond mind. Then you're just totally screwed trying to get past his saves.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-01, 06:43 PM
Bears, that's more an illustration of why Irresistable Dance is-- wait, you'd have to overcome the dragon's buffs, each one requiring a caster level check. Then you'd have to beat its spell resistance. And then you'd have to kill it in 1d4+1 rounds. Don't dragons usually have minions? And defenses in place for exactly this kind of thing?

I dunno, maybe I'm overestimating what kind of dragon we're talking about.

Hamster_Ninja
2007-04-01, 06:52 PM
Or you could just replace irressistable dance with shivering touch, no save and you have assay spell resistence to beat its SR, then 1/CL rounds to kill it.

Talya
2007-04-01, 06:54 PM
I'm of the opinion that any wizard who just cast 2 metamagicked 9th level spells, a 7th level spell with a 1500gp component, and a 5th level spell metamagicked up to 9th level, really should have just exploded a small moon somewhere. No one fighter anywhere in the universe should be a match for that.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-01, 06:59 PM
Getting back to the "how to balance" topic as opposed to the inevitable "does it need to be balanced" that always comes up...

I did my homework. First off, in 1st & 2nd edition, forcecage allowed the captured individual to get one chance at using their magic resistance to escape. The spell still had a 1000 gp material component even then. Also the duration in 1E & 2E is much shorter. It can still get to be 3-4 hours, but not enough time for the party to rest & rememorize spells.

Second, compare the spell to Otiluke's Telekinetic Sphere, an 8th level spell. It says, "reflex negates (object)". I assume that means that all creatures enclosed in the sphere can save and if so ... well I'm not entirely sure. Like BWL said, wall of stone is poorly written & I think telekinetic sphere is too regarding the placement of those who save successfully. But either way, you make the reflex save, you are not trapped. [Also note, if you use a wall spell to cut off a room horizontally, does that still count as trapping someone?]

So at the very least, forcecage should allow sr & a reflex save. Then I'd also tone down the duration to 10 min/level.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 06:59 PM
Bears, that's more an illustration of why Irresistable Dance is-- wait, you'd have to overcome the dragon's buffs, each one requiring a caster level check. Then you'd have to beat its spell resistance. And then you'd have to kill it in 1d4+1 rounds. Don't dragons usually have minions? And defenses in place for exactly this kind of thing?

I dunno, maybe I'm overestimating what kind of dragon we're talking about.

The toughest CR 20 dragon is a Black Wyrm. Its CL is 13. I'm... I'm pretty sure I can dispel it. I'm also pretty sure it won't have TOO many long-term buffs, since, well, it's a CL 13 Sorcerer.

Plus, you can, you know, go pick on a CR 15 dragon, which should still have enough of a hoard to buy you a bunch of Forcecage components.

As for minions--no. Dragons don't automatically come with minions. Dragons are mighty, solitary predators. They don't like lesser species. They don't want them hanging around all the time. They're certainly not afraid of adventurers, 95% of whom any given high-CR dragon could make complete mincemeat out of. Besides--dragon CR is for a dragon, not for a dragon plus powerful minions. Non-powerful minions can't hurt you and can therefore be disregarded.

Dragon SR is unremarkable. The Black Wyrm's got SR 26. A level 20 caster should have CL 22 pretty easily (Spell Power from Archmage, Orange Ioun Stone). Add in a Robe of the Archmagi or Spell Penetration and that's +24 to beat SR; +26 if you've got them both. Or you could cross-class UMD and use a Bead of Karma before you teleport on over.

Killing it in 1d4+1 rounds (or in 5, with the maximize rod you've got) shouldn't be much of a problem. A couple of Enervations, metamagicked; then a couple of save-or-lose spells. Dominate Monster? Finger of Death?

Yes, Irresistible Dance is pretty damn good. Normally, the drawback is that it's a touch spell; Arcane Reach makes that moot. Also, it offers SR--not much of a problem, as we saw--and is Mind-Affecting, which means there's a whole bunch of enemies who are immune to it... a bunch that doesn't include dragons.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 07:03 PM
That's "guaranteed" vs. "potential". A fighter can work up an okay Will save if he splurges on Wisdom, or with noncore feats like Steadfast Determination and the like.

Forcecage + Cloudkill isn't guaranteed, because any character immune to poison (which includes any character wearing a Periapt of Proof against Poison, and Monks of 11th level or higher) will be unaffected by the Cloudkill. That said, if you hit a Fighter (and most other non-spellcasters) with Disjunction and follow up with Forcecage, Dimensional Anchor (or Dimensional Lock) and Cloudkill, there is a very high probability of success.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:06 PM
I've never seen anyone buy a Periapt of Proof against Poison. Ever. Generally, they want important things for their amulet slots, like, oh, amulets of Natural Armor, Periapts of Wisdom, that sort of thing.

Talya
2007-04-01, 07:09 PM
I've never seen anyone buy a Periapt of Proof against Poison. Ever. Generally, they want important things for their amulet slots, like, oh, amulets of Natural Armor, Periapts of Wisdom, that sort of thing.

I've got one for my sorceror. Disease, too. And some other amulets, can only use one a time. Not that I bought them.

99.99999% of the equipment you'll ever see in an average campaign is randomly rolled, unless someone gets heavily into crafting...but then they gimp themselves for other uses and end up levels behind the party.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:14 PM
Um, in an average campaign, you can, you know, buy things you want with the cash you find (and the cash you get from selling things like the Periapt of Proof against Poison). The game assumes you'll be able to purchase things like Rings of Protection, Gloves of Dexterity, Periapts of Wisdom, Amulets of Natural Armor, etc.

Craft Wondrous Item is also not that uncommon, and will put you at most one level behind. You will gain levels faster if you are a level behind, so you would have to craft truly exorbitant quantities of Stuff to be two levels behind (and even then, you'd catch up to One Level Behind really fast).

Talya
2007-04-01, 07:17 PM
I have lots of cash. Very little to spend it on, though...

I've never played in a campaign where a DM made anything but minor items available for direct purchase...and even those were rarities left to big cities.

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 07:20 PM
Killing it in 1d4+1 rounds (or in 5, with the maximize rod you've got) shouldn't be much of a problem. A couple of Enervations, metamagicked; then a couple of save-or-lose spells. Dominate Monster? Finger of Death?
Don't forget the Maximized Reach Shivering Touch, for all your dragon slaying needs.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:23 PM
The DMG gives GP limits for towns of various sizes. It specifies that you should be able to purchase most things of value X or less in a certain city size. It's not unreasonable for there to be some fluctuation, but it IS kinda unreasonable if you've got fifty thousand gold and you can't find a (+6 stat) item in some metropolis (GP limit 100,000), especially since you can teleport around from big city to big city, as a normal party.

The GM doesn't have to run things that way, of course, but the PC's power level is significantly dependent on it.


Edit: shivering touch is horribly broken, even more so than the stuff already being discussed. Plus, I was staying core.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 07:23 PM
I've never seen anyone buy a Periapt of Proof against Poison. Ever.

Just because you haven't seen it used doesn't mean it doesn't exist. And that's not the only thing which will stop a Cloudkill either. I have a Necklace of Adaptation for my Rogue, and that stops it. Keoghtom's Ointment (Restorative Ointment) has a Neutralize Poison effect, which makes the character immune to poison for 50 minutes. Saying Cloudkill is a guaranteed win just isn't correct, but it does have a very high chance of success against a non-spellcaster, especially if the caster uses Disjunction first.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:26 PM
50 minutes won't saave you. Necklace of Adaptation--again, really rare.

It's not quite guaranteed, but--especially with the Disjunction disjoining those (already unlikely to be present) items--it's pretty damn close.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 07:31 PM
50 minutes won't saave you.

An Extended Cloudkill from a 20th level caster lasts 40 minutes, so why is 50 minutes not enough?


It's not quite guaranteed, but--especially with the Disjunction disjoining those (already unlikely to be present) items--it's pretty damn close.

I've already agreed with that. It's a tactic worth trying, but against 11th level (and higher) Monks, and characters who happen to have the right magical items (which survive the Disjunction), it won't work.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:33 PM
My bad on Cloudkill's duration. Still, the rogue's not likely to make that save vs. Disjunction.

Besides, if you see that the cloudkill isn't affecting them, you just port on out, rest up, come back, and set up another horrific deathtrap.

Clementx
2007-04-01, 07:39 PM
I've never seen anyone buy a Periapt of Proof against Poison. Ever. Generally, they want important things for their amulet slots, like, oh, amulets of Natural Armor, Periapts of Wisdom, that sort of thing.
I point you to the rules regarding layering multiple enchantments on items. You can have both. Any adventurer that didn't think getting Adaptation added to their Amulet was worth 13,500gp would have been killed before getting to this wizard with infinite lvl9 spells. Proof Against Poison is a bit much when command word or potions of Delay Poison also give the Fighter a minimum of 3 hours to get rescued per use, as well. So you really need that Disjunction to work on both his gas/poison protections as well as his extradimensional travel items. A Fighter that didn't think to boost his Will save also would never be fighting the infinite spell per round wizard either.

Just because Fighters don't have magic as a class feature, you can't assume they don't have access to magic from other sources. With that reasoning, wizards wouldn't be able to get more than 38 spells added to their spell book. So much for being Batman.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-01, 07:41 PM
I was working off of the "no custom items" assumption. Since, you know, those rules are pretty damn easy to abuse, and even more so for the wizard than for others.

Clementx
2007-04-01, 07:43 PM
I was working off of the "no custom items" assumption. Since, you know, those rules are pretty damn easy to abuse, and even more so for the wizard than for others.
Then the Fighter spends the first round digging in his backpack for the Necklace of Adaptation to wear because he needs it right now. No one is smacking him with AoOs for retrieving stored items inside a Forcecage, now are they? And potions of Delay Poison are very much core.

And another thing- half these spells allow SR. Why didn't the Fighter get an SR item/spell cast on him? After all, this wizard has perfect tactical knowledge. Why doesn't the Fighter's party wizard figure this stuff out?

greenknight
2007-04-01, 07:46 PM
Besides, if you see that the cloudkill isn't affecting them, you just port on out, rest up, come back, and set up another horrific deathtrap.

I hope you've set up a Dimensional Lock then, because a Dimensional Anchor would have worn off, giving the victim a chance to get out of there.

Keoghtom's Ointment should be a very popular item for Fighters who don't have spellcaster (Cleric or Druid) support, because it fixes up Poison, Disease and cures a few hitpoints (1d8+5). And there's 5 applications for 4,000gp. Fighters aren't that susceptable to poisons or diseases, but it's a handy backup for when they fail their save. We just don't normally see it much because I don't know too many Fighters who don't travel with a Cleric or Druid at higher levels (maybe they've already been killed off?).

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 07:47 PM
Then the Fighter spends the first round digging in his backpack for the Necklace of Adaptation to wear because he needs it right now. No one is smacking him with AoOs for retrieving stored items inside a Forcecage, now are they? And potions of Delay Poison are very much core.
How many of those does he have? The wizard could just drop a Persistant Cloudkill. Does the fighter have enough potions to last a full day?

\/ *thinks*
*thinks harder*
*gives up*

Clementx
2007-04-01, 07:53 PM
How many of those does he have? The wizard could just drop a Persistant Cloudkill. Does the fighter have enough potions to last a full day?
The question is- is his party so stupid they can't get rid of a Forcecage or get SR to negate the Dimensional Lock in the 3 hours ONE potion at minimum caster level protects him for?

And good luck adding another lvl11 spell into this flurry of metamagic. You ever seen the price of a midlevel Rod of Persist? Exponential cost increases are a b!tch, even if your DM allowed it. And that requires custom items, which brings in the combination Adaptation item, which lets the Fighter breathe in those noxious vapors until he runs out of air. Plus he might also have a Bottle of Air in his pack, too.

PS I just did an exponential regression on the middle metamagic rods. A Persist rod capable of affecting a lvl5 spell is 180,000gp, going by the existing prices. 24% of a lvl20 character's wealth. Have a nice day Maximizing all those Time Stops while you do it.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 07:54 PM
How many of those does he have? The wizard could just drop a Persistant Cloudkill. Does the fighter have enough potions to last a full day?

How in the world do you make Cloudkill Persistant? If you're referring to Persistant Spell from Complete Arcane, that only works for spells with a Fixed or Personal range, and Cloudkill's range is Medium (ie, it varies with caster level, so it's neither fixed nor personal). Not to mention that it adds 6 spell levels, so you'd either need an expensive Metamagic Rod (and there's no mention of a Rod of Persistant Spell in Complete Arcane) or be Epic level to do it.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 08:00 PM
And that requires custom items, which brings in the combination Adaptation item, which lets the Fighter breathe in those noxious vapors until he runs out of air. Plus he might also have a Bottle of Air in his pack, too.

Someone wearing a Necklace of Adaptation doesn't need air - they can even breathe underwater or in a vacuum.

Clementx
2007-04-01, 08:02 PM
What do you know? It does. So the Fighter spends 9,000gp to negate 1/3 of the daily use of a 180,000gp item for the wizard. And people say noncasters are overpowered.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-01, 08:03 PM
Hey Clementx, remember the disjunction. Every item the fighter wasn't wearing or holding doesn't even get a save.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-01, 08:14 PM
Point. So he digs into his backpack, and... crap. Wasn't wearing that, was I.

greenknight
2007-04-01, 08:16 PM
Hey Clementx, remember the disjunction. Every item the fighter wasn't wearing or holding doesn't even get a save.

The spell allows a save for all items the character is carrying, not just holding or touching. With a typical Fighter, most items are going to fail the save anyway, but they could survive.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-01, 10:13 PM
The spell allows a save for all items the character is carrying, not just holding or touching. With a typical Fighter, most items are going to fail the save anyway, but they could survive.

Why sure. They "could." Anything "could" happen, but the odds are heavily against the fighter. (Of course, if the wizard in question also happens to be a fatespinner, it gets nastier still: "Reroll that incredibly lucky successful save. Ah, a failure. Much better.")

Most of the arguments in favor of the fighter surviving that have real merit (Tippy pretty much shot down every argument about equipment doing much to help) are focused on the assumption that the fighter's party -- specifically the spellcasters in it -- should be saving him. What you people who are saying that are saying, and I think without even really realizing it, is, "Okay, yes, fighters are pathetic and basically helpless, but they usually travel with spellcasters who aren't helpless, so why aren't those spellcasters bailing their helpless fighter tag-along out?"

And where we're assuming that the wizard's target is alone, the only other thing anyone can come up with is that the victim "could" survive, either due to having a magic item that protects and being really, really lucky on the save, or due to being an 11th or higher level monk. And I get that that would let you survive the Cloudkill -- especially the latter. But is it really a win? You're still completely stuck in the Forcecage for better than a full day. Probably most of your magic items are now non-magical junk. The wizard can easily teleport out and rest up ... have a nice meal, smoke a bowl, whatever. Hell, if that wizard really hates you, he can just keep popping back in and renewing the Forcecage and Dimensional Lock until you finally die of thirst or starvation. Maybe you had a Ring of Sustenance, but ... oh yeah. The Disjunction.

(Mind you, that would be a really expensive and inefficient way to kill the person; I mention it only because it would technically be possible. If a wizard actually did it, I assume it would be out of pure spite. :smalltongue:)

None of this means that this is the way it should be; it just means that it's the way it is per the rules as written. After all, changing that is the point of the suggested fix. :smallwink:

Clementx
2007-04-01, 10:33 PM
Hey Clementx, remember the disjunction. Every item the fighter wasn't wearing or holding doesn't even get a save.
Hey, Tippy, remember that "possession" means carrying as well.
Hey, Tippy, remember that magic items also have a Will save no matter what.
Hey, Tippy, remember that a Fighter's Will save is only 6 lower AT LVL20 than a character with a good Will save, and classes have more reason to improve their weak saves than better their good ones. That makes his magic items 30% more susceptible than a wizard's. You target weak saves- you don't get to ignore them.

And let's go over this spell combo that is so devastating. You need to drop Disjunction, Cloudkill, Dimensional Anchor, and Forcecage before the Fighter or his party neutralizes any one of them. The simple fact that you need a Maximized Time Stop tells you how hard this is to do. Without the Time Stop, it just doesn't work. Even with the Time Stop, each step has potential failures that ruin the effort and leave the Wizard with all his daily resources and highest level spells expended. In these threads, people always ignore the SR, saves, timing, and other assorted chances of failure, working against an isolated and maximally-stupid Fighter that isn't meant to be a well-rounded challenge to spellcasters. Dominate all in all is just as effective. Immunity to mild-effective spells is easy to get. Negation of this combo is just as easily, especially because it is stretched out over so many rounds.

Single duels are not what DnD is about, either. The party is a basic assumption. Your lvl20 wizard would have died at lvl2 when he got stopped by the second locked door and was out of Knock spells. Your lvl20 wizard is going to die when that Balor greater teleports next to him. These are the facts of DnD.

And as for, "the odds are stacked against him", the odds are just as against the wizard making his massive damage save half a dozen times in a row when the greater invisible rogue TWF-full-attacks him the round after he Forcecages the fighter. They take the the wizard's stuff, True Res the Fighter on the off-chance he dies, and thank him whole-heartedly for making the wizard spend so much time and resources neutralizing him that everyone else got to RAPE THE HELL out of the wizard.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-02, 12:23 AM
And let's go over this spell combo that is so devastating. You need to drop Disjunction, Cloudkill, Dimensional Anchor, and Forcecage before the Fighter or his party neutralizes any one of them. The simple fact that you need a Maximized Time Stop tells you how hard this is to do. Without the Time Stop, it just doesn't work. Even with the Time Stop, each step has potential failures that ruin the effort and leave the Wizard with all his daily resources and highest level spells expended. In these threads, people always ignore the SR, saves, timing, and other assorted chances of failure, working against an isolated and maximally-stupid Fighter that isn't meant to be a well-rounded challenge to spellcasters. Dominate all in all is just as effective. Immunity to mild-effective spells is easy to get. Negation of this combo is just as easily, especially because it is stretched out over so many rounds.

It's accomplished in a single round. Time Stop, remember?


Single duels are not what DnD is about, either.

No, but there's still a problem when one class that has infinitely more utility anyway is also incredibly more powerful in combat, to the point of virtual unstoppability, than another class that really only can do combat. And can cast spells that instantly put people into situations they can't hope to get out of, while allowing them neither saves nor spell resistance. That's ... a little broken.


The party is a basic assumption. Your lvl20 wizard would have died at lvl2 when he got stopped by the second locked door and was out of Knock spells. Your lvl20 wizard is going to die when that Balor greater teleports next to him.

Well, no. Foresight gives the wizard advance warning of the incoming teleport, and Celerity pre-empts whatever the balor was about to do and allows the wizard to have his way more or less with impunity. That's without taking into account whatever contingencies the wizard might have had up, or wards if the wizard is also an initiate of the sevenfold veil. Even I know that by now.


And as for, "the odds are stacked against him", the odds are just as against the wizard making his massive damage save half a dozen times in a row when the greater invisible rogue TWF-full-attacks him the round after he Forcecages the fighter.

The wizard didn't have See Invisible up as a constant effect? By level 20? Why the hell not? Even if he didn't, if he had a halfway intelligent Contingency in place, he'll be okay. And of course there's Foresight once again preventing even a sneak attack from actual hiding from working. And Celerity turns it further around so that the wizard actually has the drop on the rogue now, not the other way around. That will be a really quick fight.

No offense, but I imagine I'm probably at least as good as, if not better than, you at building powerful rogues, and even I can't come up with a way to kill a rules-as-written wizard who's played right. I've tried; believe me. I admit and accept my failure. It just can't be done.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 12:46 AM
And let's go over this spell combo that is so devastating. You need to drop Disjunction, Cloudkill, Dimensional Anchor, and Forcecage before the Fighter or his party neutralizes any one of them. The simple fact that you need a Maximized Time Stop tells you how hard this is to do. Without the Time Stop, it just doesn't work. Even with the Time Stop, each step has potential failures that ruin the effort and leave the Wizard with all his daily resources and highest level spells expended. In these threads, people always ignore the SR, saves, timing, and other assorted chances of failure, working against an isolated and maximally-stupid Fighter that isn't meant to be a well-rounded challenge to spellcasters. Dominate all in all is just as effective. Immunity to mild-effective spells is easy to get. Negation of this combo is just as easily, especially because it is stretched out over so many rounds.
Time Stop is vital to this. Negation of this combo is NOT easy. It requires a very specific immunity--and if you don't have elemental resistances, an Acid Fog and Burning Cloud can replace the Cloudkill. That, or the wizard can just trap you, examine your magic items and such with spells, disable the most important ones (like your ring of Freedom of Movement) with Dispel + Shatter, go off, memorize spells meant specifically to kill your ass, and come back.


Single duels are not what DnD is about, either. The party is a basic assumption. Your lvl20 wizard would have died at lvl2 when he got stopped by the second locked door and was out of Knock spells. Your lvl20 wizard is going to die when that Balor greater teleports next to him. These are the facts of DnD.
At level two, nobody's saying the wizard can go around facing enemies alone. A level two wizard needs the party to cover him, and he can throw out Sleeps for them.
As for the balor, Anticipate Teleport. Even without that, i.e. core only, the teleport uses the balor's standard action. Foresight means he doesn't surprise the wizard. The wizard goes and tumbles away (cross-class ranks--massive INT, lots of skill points, few important class skills) out of reach, casts Time Stop (or, you know what, just casts defensively), and then pulls the Cloudkill/Dimension Lock/Forcecage combo above. The balor dies.


And as for, "the odds are stacked against him", the odds are just as against the wizard making his massive damage save half a dozen times in a row when the greater invisible rogue TWF-full-attacks him the round after he Forcecages the fighter. They take the the wizard's stuff, True Res the Fighter on the off-chance he dies, and thank him whole-heartedly for making the wizard spend so much time and resources neutralizing him that everyone else got to RAPE THE HELL out of the wizard.
The odds are NOT just as stacked against the wizard.
The greater invisible rogue is picked up by the wizard's See Invisibility. He doesn't get sneak attack without flanking (flanking a flying, highly mobile, dimension-door-quickening-if-need-be wizard is hard). And even then, a +1 mithral buckler of Heavy Fortification is cheap at twice the price for a level 20 character. The wizard doesn't take the sneak attack damage.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-02, 12:50 AM
Hey, Tippy, remember that "possession" means carrying as well.
Hey, Tippy, remember that magic items also have a Will save no matter what.
Hey, Tippy, remember that a Fighter's Will save is only 6 lower AT LVL20 than a character with a good Will save, and classes have more reason to improve their weak saves than better their good ones. That makes his magic items 30% more susceptible than a wizard's. You target weak saves- you don't get to ignore them.
You will have about a 45% chance of making any given save for an item. I can even push it lower if I really try. And that is with a pretty close to maxed will save for the fighter.


And let's go over this spell combo that is so devastating. You need to drop Disjunction, Cloudkill, Dimensional Anchor, and Forcecage before the Fighter or his party neutralizes any one of them.

Its all done in the first round. When the wizard acts before anyone else. Quickened Disjunction, Maximized Timestop, the rest.


The simple fact that you need a Maximized Time Stop tells you how hard this is to do. Without the Time Stop, it just doesn't work.
No. It just isn't as dependable. Dimensional Lock + Force Cage is enough to defeat most fighters.


Even with the Time Stop, each step has potential failures that ruin the effort and leave the Wizard with all his daily resources and highest level spells expended.
No. There is no real chance for any failure. And a wizard can do this at least 3 times per day at level 20.


In these threads, people always ignore the SR, saves, timing, and other assorted chances of failure, working against an isolated and maximally-stupid Fighter that isn't meant to be a well-rounded challenge to spellcasters.
SR that a fighter coudl get by level 20 is a joke for a level 20 wizard. It really doesn't matter. None of the spells except disjunction even allows a save, and it is one that most fighters will fail most of the time.


Dominate all in all is just as effective. Immunity to mild-effective spells is easy to get. Negation of this combo is just as easily, especially because it is stretched out over so many rounds.
Timestop fool. It makes it all happen in 1 round and it can't be countered by a fighter.


Single duels are not what DnD is about, either. The party is a basic assumption. Your lvl20 wizard would have died at lvl2 when he got stopped by the second locked door and was out of Knock spells. Your lvl20 wizard is going to die when that Balor greater teleports next to him. These are the facts of DnD.
No. After level 17 I can build you a wizard who really can't be killed short of DM fiat. Ask around. I've done it. In fact I end up having to do it every 2 weeks or so.


And as for, "the odds are stacked against him", the odds are just as against the wizard making his massive damage save half a dozen times in a row when the greater invisible rogue TWF-full-attacks him the round after he Forcecages the fighter. They take the the wizard's stuff, True Res the Fighter on the off-chance he dies, and thank him whole-heartedly for making the wizard spend so much time and resources neutralizing him that everyone else got to RAPE THE HELL out of the wizard.

You will never touch a wizard that I have played to the best of my abilities. BWL could make one thats even more untouchable.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 01:01 AM
As a note, I'd never want to actually play such a wizard, because he'd be horrifically paranoid and prioritize removing even the tiniest possibility that someone could in some way hurt him over pretty much everything else.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-02, 01:02 AM
As a note, I'd never want to actually play such a wizard, because he'd be horrifically paranoid and prioritize removing even the tiniest possibility that someone could in some way hurt him over pretty much everything else.
Same. I've played one once to prove a point. Never again. It's no fun.

marjan
2007-04-02, 06:05 AM
Not really on topic but is related: What happens with items in Bag of Holding when you cast Disjunction?

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 06:10 AM
Not really on topic but is related: What happens with items in Bag of Holding when you cast Disjunction?

Well, that depends on whether the bag of holding, survives the disjunction.

If it does, all the items in an extra dimensional space inside the bag probably aren't affected, as they're not on the same bit of reality as the spell was cast. Note that this would be a house rule.

If it doesn't, they're all lost, forever. Or at least a very large portion of same. Note that this is not a house rule.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 06:14 AM
Presumably they dissapear to the Astral Plane, unless the bag's open.

Rigeld2
2007-04-02, 06:20 AM
If the bag is open, they all need to save. MD is a burst so it "fills" the open bag with magic killing energy. Itd be interesting if the bag was dispelled while open.

Zincorium
2007-04-02, 06:22 AM
I was assuming a closed bag, like you'd usually be carrying around when getting hit with spells. If you have it open, to get out a potion or something similar, yeah, you hit it right on the money rigeld.

Clementx
2007-04-02, 10:03 AM
The invisible rogue was just something off the top of my head. I'm not working off a wizard-script someone wrote 3 years ago like Time Stop-Cloudkill-Forcecage. There are plenty of ways around any defense the wizard can throw up, such as the opposing wizard casting Celerity and Disjunction as well, so now its down to initiative again. And of course, there is the wonderful counter of Celerity-Time Stop, which does give the opposing wizard time to neutralize all this effort with fewer spells.

Thanks, everyone, for yelling, "Time Stop" at me as loud as you can. You have proven my point- there is nothing wrong with Forcecage. First step of any reaction- find the limiting reactant. If none of this works all that well without Time Stop (and even then you are ignoring the saves of Disjunction and the SR of Lock), then Cloudkill, Forcecage, and even Celerity are fine. All your power comes from one lvl9 spell.

NullAshton
2007-04-02, 10:10 AM
Hmmm...

I just thought of something. In a large group of four or more... how is forcecage/other save or lose or save and still lose spells overpowered? They either can affect one person, or they have an area effect. If it's an area effect... SPREAD OUT! Don't congregate into a nice little blob for your enemies to section off! Forcecage, the barless kind only effects a 10 foot by 10 foot area, which isn't a whole lot.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 10:13 AM
The invisible rogue was just something off the top of my head. I'm not working off a wizard-script someone wrote 3 years ago like Time Stop-Cloudkill-Forcecage. There are plenty of ways around any defense the wizard can throw up, such as the opposing wizard casting Celerity and Disjunction as well, so now its down to initiative again. And of course, there is the wonderful counter of Celerity-Time Stop, which does give the opposing wizard time to neutralize all this effort with fewer spells.

Thanks, everyone, for yelling, "Time Stop" at me as loud as you can. You have proven my point- there is nothing wrong with Forcecage. First step of any reaction- find the limiting reactant. If none of this works all that well without Time Stop (and even then you are ignoring the saves of Disjunction and the SR of Lock), then Cloudkill, Forcecage, and even Celerity are fine. All your power comes from one lvl9 spell.

Alright, drop a Quickened Multispell. There're plenty of ways to get these off in one round, but there's just no point in listing all of them.

Pocket lint
2007-04-02, 11:49 AM
I'm curious how Foresight helps against much of anything? It only has a duration of 10 minutes per level, so how many slots do you want to spend if you want it up constantly? Every day? Even with a greater extend rod, even three castings won't cover you full-time.

Granted, you cast it once and the rogue has a lot more trouble... in which case, the rogue starts getting creative using Improved Feint and such. Guess what - a rogue has a lot more skill points to spend on Bluff than a wizard does on Sense Motive...

And then there's all those other high-level spells you have to cast, all those cross-class skills to train. This whole debate smacks of Calvinball to me. "I do X!" "Haha, I had Y cast, so nyah" "Ok, so I try Z" "Doesn't work with my W" ... etc.

Clementx
2007-04-02, 01:25 PM
Alright, drop a Quickened Multispell. There're plenty of ways to get these off in one round, but there's just no point in listing all of them.
Care to point out the source of Multispell? It isn't on WotC compiled spell list, and the spells that do what you suggest have limits on level that are steeper than Time Stop (since it allows effectively the casting of 3 and a half quickened lvl9 spells without adjustment and a couple restrictions). Unless of course you are talking about the 3.0 epic feat, which is the only WotC item with that name. So it looks like there is a point in listing all the ways you can do it without Time Stop.

Oh, and on the off-chance that Multispell works as you imply, have nice time trying to Quicken it after you used Celerity to take initiative.

OzymandiasVolt
2007-04-02, 01:27 PM
Indeed. Yes, there's pretty much a Wizard spell for any situation. But it is EXTREMELY UNLIKELY that the wizard A) has that particular spell in his book, B) had it prepared, C) decided to cast it for some reason, and D) had time to cast it during the battle up to that point. Sure, he might have SOME of the spells up, but not one for every situation.

Corolinth
2007-04-02, 02:26 PM
I love how you guys are jumping all over me with examples of ideal battlefield conditions for a level 20 wizard. Under ideal conditions, a level 20 wizard is kicking anybody's ass in a one-on-one fight. (Actually, under ideal conditions, your chosen protagonist is winning - that's sort of the definition of ideal conditions, but I digress).

The advantage of being a level 20 wizard is that most likely, you can kill anyone in a one-on-one fight, even if you're not under ideal conditions. Now I want you all to consider who always used to die in the first battle of their very first adventure of the 1st or 2nd edition campaign because they had an AC of 9, 4hp, and one first level spell?

Anybody read 8-Bit Theater? Who always gets stabbed in the head (by his own party), yet has never died? That's right. Fighter! Who's always dead? Black Mage!

I'm reading lots of one-on-one encounters, and it's occurring to me that the CR-rating system is balanced around a party of four adventurers. Okay, so we'll assume the wizard casting a maximized time stop has a metamagic rod, because otherwise he's using a level 12 spell slot (which means he's close to level 30, and is undoubtedly capable of killing a pansy level 20 fighter without breaking a sweat, just like a level 20 anything can do a level 10 anything). So he's just expended two level 9 spells, a level 5 spell, and a level 7 spell with a 1,500gp material component. My next question is how is he living long enough to cast all of these spells?

So our hypothetical level 20 wizard has also cast flight, and a slew of other protection spells. Stoneskin, Ironguard (probably greater), some other happy fancy. So that's another 4th level spell with a 250gp material component, a 3rd level spell, and a 7th level spell (not 100% sure on Ironguard, but the good one is around 7th). That's a lot of money and resources to deal with one fighter. Furthermore, a forcecage leaves a lot up to the discretion of the DM. For example, does air pass through the cage? We know breath weapons don't, but since the target doesn't suffocate from stale air, we can go places with this.

So let's review. Mordenkainen's Disjunction + Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage takes two rounds (for the victim) at the very least, unless you're quickening Mordenkainen's Disjunction - that's a level 13 spell slot, by the way - you need yet another metamagic rod (or epic feats). Your instant win is anything but instant. It relies on luck, and possibly epic feats combined with the right combination of metamagic feats and very high level spell slots, or the right combination of very expensive magical items (and still requiring multiple level 9 spell slots). If you're bringing that kind of firepower, you'd better damn well win. However, this isn't a guaranteed win because it's completely shot to hell by a cleric or wizard casting Anti-Magic Field. Which brings me to my next point...

Now, what are the other three party members doing? Remember! CRs are balanced around a party of 4! We'll assume you don't have a wizard of your own to cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction after time stop wears off (or to use it to counter the bad guy, because the wizard definitely has a vested interest in seeing that spell get countered). Or maybe you're level 16, and just don't have it. Or we're talking purely about level 20s, so you just don't have a wizard. Your bad guy wizard has just unloaded about 1/3 of his spells to neutralize one of you. There are three of you left, and that's not even mentioning what you're all doing while this guaranteed win is being set up.

That's the great thing about these scenarios. Optimal builds and guaranteed win scenarios are always devised by munchkin powergamers that are nowhere near as brilliant as they think they are. There are always things that can go wrong. The biggest flaw is that any self-respecting DM takes one look at your character and says, "Yeah, you just keep right on thinking I'm going to let you have that prestige class." I've listened to enough bitching and complaining about class balance to understand how it works. The vast majority of the time, you have a pissed off munchkin with a hair up his ass because he could conceivably be defeated. Alternatively, you have a munchkin with a raging hard-on for his latest invincible character scheme (that probably isn't half as invincible as he thinks - see above). Every now and then there's a real game balance issue at stake, but that's the exception rather than the rule. The fact that a level 20 wizard could put another character in an inescapable situation of almost certain death, after expending 1/3 of his spell slots to do so (most of which are in the level 7-9 range) is not one of those exceptions. Keep in mind that we're counting the defensive spells that said wizard must undoubtedly employ in order to keep from getting stabbed before casting Time Stop. Bear in mind, a level 20 fighter with no magical items still has significant advantages that you have to compensate for. Eleven fighter bonus feats and a +20 BAB lets him do all kinds of crazy stuff.

But we'll go back to the issue at hand of one-on-one fights under ideal circumstances for whoever we want to win in order to prove that a certain class or ability is unbalanced.

Ready?

The core rulebooks are written from the understanding that you start your characters at level 1. You play through a multitude of sessions, enduring many trials and tribulations to reach the later character levels. Your obtain magical items either through random treasure generation, or party members with item creation feats. Classes are not balanced with the assumption that they can buy this or that magical item listed in the back of the DMG. You may have noticed that level 20 characters don't tend to have any form of inherent bonus to any of their ability scores resulting from wish spells, magic tomes, or magic manuals. And frankly, that would probably be the most obvious thing to spend all of that money on.

Character survivability over prolonged play is a factor in determining how powerful the class should be at level 20. People will argue that they screwed up there with clerics, druids, and monks. I'm not entirely convinced that the infamous CoDzilla actually exists. The arguments for it rely on a lot of ideal circumstances in one-on-one fights. Furthermore, even if it does, they can only do it for one or two fights (game balance assumes you're involved in six between resting). Wizards and sorcerers have the absolute lowest survivability out of all of the classes, bar none. This improves later with more powerful defensive spells, many of which are more beneficial if cast on other people. Stoneskin is more useful cast on your party's fighter than on yourself under most circumstances. Even with these spells, a wizard or sorcerer can achieve roughly the survivability of the more martial classes, but is only able to do so for a short amount of time (whereas the fighter and barbarian is always that tough to kill). This is why level 7-9 wizard spells tend to be ridiculously powerful. They only get a few of them, which is a major limitation when you're expected to have six battles between resting.

Furthermore, wizards are largely reliant on the mercy of DM die rolls, or DM placed loot, insofar as what scrolls they are able to scribe, as a level 20 wizard's spellbook is largely determined by what scrolls he was able to scribe over his career. A sorcerer knows certain spells automatically, but he can never learn any more. That's his balancing act. The spells he needs, he may not have, and may never have. Clerics and druids automatically know all of the spells on their list. Bards gain spells like sorcerers. They actually get more of them too, albeit their most powerful spells are somewhat weaker. Wizards, however, have the lowest number of spells that they learn automatically. They have the potential to learn the most spells out of all of the classes, but they have to find them over their adventures, or purchase them as scrolls. Any DM with half a brain is going to assign a sort of rarity to the higher level spells. For instance, you can't just go to Walmart and buy Time Stop. How many level 17+ wizards are actually in the world? How many of them are willing to pay the exp cost to scribe scrolls on a regular basis so that some random schmuck can go to a shop and buy 9th level spells? Furthermore, finding a spell scroll requires that someone scribed it, which means that someone else has to know the spell to do so. First level scrolls are common as dirt, because that's how we teach our apprentices the ropes. Ninth level spells, not so much. What archwizard wants his rival, Joe, killing him with the very Meteor Swarm spell that he sold Bob last week?

Wizards get a slight bone in that rather than being totally dependent on random die rolls and the mercy of the DM, a wizard is able to pick and choose his magic items. At least, he's able to do so within the restrictions and limitations of the feats he possesses and the spells he knows. Also within the limitations of however much exp he's willing to spend (exp that he has to earn back the hard way). Wizards tend to level a lot slower than other classes. So yes, the level 20 wizard is going to be a badass. They really do earn it in the long run. So does the sorcerer. They've played at the gaming table for two years with the severe disadvantage of dying if something looks at them wrong.

A level 20 wizard might very well kick anybody's ass in scenarios that aren't even remotely ideal (the true mark of power). These monumental ass-kickings are anything but instant. On top of that, it takes a lot of work, emphasis on the word "lot," in order to be a level 20 wizard. You still only have about 100 hit points. One cast of Magic Missle, and then Power Word: Kill rubs you out with no save. Compare that with all of the business you unloaded to work over that fighter. We don't even need to maximize a level 5 and a level 9 spell for it, which either requires a level 12 spell slot or a 121,500gp magic item, let alone cap it off with a 1500gp level 7 spell. Furthermore, a quickened Magic Missle is a level 5 slot. You can be killed in one round without your assailant even needing to do anything fancy like quicken and maximize level 9 spells.

So while you're going on and on about how a level 7 spell is unbalanced because it allows an "inescapable death trap" to be set up with the help of multiple level 9 spells, I feel it's important to point out how difficult it actually is to play a wizard all the way up to level 20, as well as how easy it still is to die once you get there.

excrtd
2007-04-02, 02:37 PM
I do believe that casting a quickened magic missile and power word kill requires our caster to be fighting another caster with access to 9th level spells.

Arbitrarity
2007-04-02, 02:57 PM
Furthermore, players are very dependant on the mercy of the DM. If the DM wants to screw them, he CAN.

So that's nice, that the DM is screwing the wizard as written. If we're doing that, how about the wizard screws things over with use of inane cheese. Instant? No. But making a variable time trait demi-plane (it's in the SRD!) basically mops up any resistance.

And saying "Wizards aren't OP, because they can be owned by other wizards!" doesn't say much.

Wait. Wait. So... it's OK that wizards can screw anyone, because they suck at low levels?

Meet my friend "occasionally starts above level 1". Omg.

And CoDzilla exists, and you obviously don't get it. The druid can wildshape all day. The cleric has persistant divine metacheese.

EDIT: How about we all read the Message to the Forum, actually, and stop this inanity. It tires me, and I'm probably annoying you.

NullAshton
2007-04-02, 03:37 PM
Furthermore, players are very dependant on the mercy of the DM. If the DM wants to screw them, he CAN.

So that's nice, that the DM is screwing the wizard as written. If we're doing that, how about the wizard screws things over with use of inane cheese. Instant? No. But making a variable time trait demi-plane (it's in the SRD!) basically mops up any resistance.

And saying "Wizards aren't OP, because they can be owned by other wizards!" doesn't say much.

Wait. Wait. So... it's OK that wizards can screw anyone, because they suck at low levels?

Meet my friend "occasionally starts above level 1". Omg.

And CoDzilla exists, and you obviously don't get it. The druid can wildshape all day. The cleric has persistant divine metacheese.

EDIT: How about we all read the Message to the Forum, actually, and stop this inanity. It tires me, and I'm probably annoying you.

Uh.... actually, it's relevant to the conversation. Sorta relevant, the original post was about forcecage.

A couple things about you.... the druid can wildshape all day, yes. The druid can also not TALK while wildshaped, and it takes a standard action to use wildshape. And persistent cheese... why not use that persistent cheese on the fighter, or rogue? Those two would love something like persistent vigor, being healed after each and every single encounter. You never have to rest!

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 03:40 PM
A couple things about you.... the druid can wildshape all day, yes. The druid can also not TALK while wildshaped, and it takes a standard action to use wildshape. And persistent cheese... why not use that persistent cheese on the fighter, or rogue? Those two would love something like persistent vigor, being healed after each and every single encounter. You never have to rest!

The druid uses that standard action at the beginning of the day. He communicates, at higher levels, via a Telepathic Bond.

Persistent Cheese doesn't work very well on the fighter or the rogue, since there are so few relevant spells with a fixed range. The Vigor spells have a maximum number of rounds they work regardless of actual spell duration. There are, however, tons of useful things you can persist on yourself.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-02, 03:52 PM
I love how you guys are jumping all over me with examples of ideal battlefield conditions for a level 20 wizard. Under ideal conditions, a level 20 wizard is kicking anybody's ass in a one-on-one fight. (Actually, under ideal conditions, your chosen protagonist is winning - that's sort of the definition of ideal conditions, but I digress).
Pick any location you want short of a dead magic zone. The people who mention battlefield are almost always the ones arguing against wizards being effectively unbeatable.


The advantage of being a level 20 wizard is that most likely, you can kill anyone in a one-on-one fight, even if you're not under ideal conditions. Now I want you all to consider who always used to die in the first battle of their very first adventure of the 1st or 2nd edition campaign because they had an AC of 9, 4hp, and one first level spell?
No one who knows anything has claimed that wizards are overpowered until at least level 10. And they really don't start becoming all powerful until level 15+


Anybody read 8-Bit Theater? Who always gets stabbed in the head (by his own party), yet has never died? That's right. Fighter! Who's always dead? Black Mage!
Good for them. It's a comic. It has no bearing on this discussion at all.


I'm reading lots of one-on-one encounters, and it's occurring to me that the CR-rating system is balanced around a party of four adventurers.
Sure. Put 4 adventurer's on each side. You can play the generic wizard,fighter,rogue,cleric and I'll play the wizard, cleric, druid, beguiler. Lets see who wins. Or you can play 4 fighters and I'll play 1 wizard and we will see who wins.


Okay, so we'll assume the wizard casting a maximized time stop has a metamagic rod, because otherwise he's using a level 12 spell slot (which means he's close to level 30, and is undoubtedly capable of killing a pansy level 20 fighter without breaking a sweat, just like a level 20 anything can do a level 10 anything). So he's just expended two level 9 spells, a level 5 spell, and a level 7 spell with a 1,500gp material component. My next question is how is he living long enough to cast all of these spells?
What do you mean. He acts first. And no one ahs ever said taht you don't need metamagic rods.

Well you could use sudden maximize and sudden quicken and get it done once per day that way.


So our hypothetical level 20 wizard has also cast flight, and a slew of other protection spells. Stoneskin, Ironguard (probably greater), some other happy fancy. So that's another 4th level spell with a 250gp material component, a 3rd level spell, and a 7th level spell (not 100% sure on Ironguard, but the good one is around 7th).
Flight? Phantom Steed is much better. So is overland flight. Stoneskin? Why. My contigencies will keep me safe.


That's a lot of money and resources to deal with one fighter.
Sure. And it doesn't matter. When you run low just go solo a dragon for its horde.


Furthermore, a forcecage leaves a lot up to the discretion of the DM. For example, does air pass through the cage? We know breath weapons don't, but since the target doesn't suffocate from stale air, we can go places with this.
What makes you think that the target doesn't suffocate?



This version of the spell produces a 10-foot cube with no way in and no way out. Solid walls of force form its six sides.




without openings or breaks: a solid wall.


No openings or breaks means no air gets it.



So let's review. Mordenkainen's Disjunction + Time Stop + Cloudkill + Forcecage takes two rounds (for the victim) at the very least, unless you're quickening Mordenkainen's Disjunction - that's a level 13 spell slot, by the way - you need yet another metamagic rod (or epic feats).
Yeah. It requires a rod. No one said it didn't. All that you require are 2 metamagic rods (1 of quicken and 1 of maximize).


Your instant win is anything but instant. It relies on luck, and possibly epic feats combined with the right combination of metamagic feats and very high level spell slots, or the right combination of very expensive magical items (and still requiring multiple level 9 spell slots).
It doesn't even take up half my WBL. A fighter spends that much or more on his weapon. Metamagic rods are akin to a wizards weapons.


If you're bringing that kind of firepower, you'd better damn well win. However, this isn't a guaranteed win because it's completely shot to hell by a cleric or wizard casting Anti-Magic Field. Which brings me to my next point...
You now require a caster. And AMF doesn't matter at all. Forcecage and most other force affects are unaffected by it. And the AMF has to be on the cleric. Which keeps him from bothering me for a good 10 minutes.


Now, what are the other three party members doing? Remember! CRs are balanced around a party of 4! We'll assume you don't have a wizard of your own to cast Mordenkainen's Disjunction after time stop wears off (or to use it to counter the bad guy, because the wizard definitely has a vested interest in seeing that spell get countered). Or maybe you're level 16, and just don't have it. Or we're talking purely about level 20s, so you just don't have a wizard. Your bad guy wizard has just unloaded about 1/3 of his spells to neutralize one of you. There are three of you left, and that's not even mentioning what you're all doing while this guaranteed win is being set up.
Has nothing at all to do with teh topic at hand. Magic counters magic. That is well established. Any non caster is screwed. Which is what I have been saying this whole time.


That's the great thing about these scenarios. Optimal builds and guaranteed win scenarios are always devised by munchkin powergamers that are nowhere near as brilliant as they think they are. There are always things that can go wrong.
Really. Provide soms way for a level 20 core only fighter to counter what I have said. Him alone. You can choose the environment. No one has been able to do it yet.


The biggest flaw is that any self-respecting DM takes one look at your character and says, "Yeah, you just keep right on thinking I'm going to let you have that prestige class."
Prestige class? I've been talking about a strait level 20 wizard. If you want prestige classes the fighter has an even harder time.


I've listened to enough bitching and complaining about class balance to understand how it works. The vast majority of the time, you have a pissed off munchkin with a hair up his ass because he could conceivably be defeated. Alternatively, you have a munchkin with a raging hard-on for his latest invincible character scheme (that probably isn't half as invincible as he thinks - see above).

You sir have no idea what you are talking about. In game I don't munckin or powergame. Neither does BWL. But so long as people continue to espouse the idea that fighters can stand up to wizards at level 20 or that wizards aren't overpowered I at least will sit here and show that person the error of their ways.


Every now and then there's a real game balance issue at stake, but that's the exception rather than the rule. The fact that a level 20 wizard could put another character in an inescapable situation of almost certain death, after expending 1/3 of his spell slots to do so (most of which are in the level 7-9 range) is not one of those exceptions. Keep in mind that we're counting the defensive spells that said wizard must undoubtedly employ in order to keep from getting stabbed before casting Time Stop. Bear in mind, a level 20 fighter with no magical items still has significant advantages that you have to compensate for. Eleven fighter bonus feats and a +20 BAB lets him do all kinds of crazy stuff.
No one of that really matters. As I have said. We do this every 2 weeks or so. Your side always loses. A coup0le of weeks ago I showed how you can't (RAW) kill a wizard that is played to the best of its abilities.


But we'll go back to the issue at hand of one-on-one fights under ideal circumstances for whoever we want to win in order to prove that a certain class or ability is unbalanced.

Ready?

The core rulebooks are written from the understanding that you start your characters at level 1. You play through a multitude of sessions, enduring many trials and tribulations to reach the later character levels. Your obtain magical items either through random treasure generation, or party members with item creation feats. Classes are not balanced with the assumption that they can buy this or that magical item listed in the back of the DMG. You may have noticed that level 20 characters don't tend to have any form of inherent bonus to any of their ability scores resulting from wish spells, magic tomes, or magic manuals. And frankly, that would probably be the most obvious thing to spend all of that money on.
Haha. To you really believe this? Playing a wizard from level 1 to level 20 and ending up with all the items you need to become unkillable isn't hard. It's even doable if you never have a party. It just requires lots of rest and a lot of time.


Character survivability over prolonged play is a factor in determining how powerful the class should be at level 20. People will argue that they screwed up there with clerics, druids, and monks. I'm not entirely convinced that the infamous CoDzilla actually exists.
Go read. It exists.


The arguments for it rely on a lot of ideal circumstances in one-on-one fights. Furthermore, even if it does, they can only do it for one or two fights (game balance assumes you're involved in six between resting).
Actually game balance assumes 4 CR appropriate challenges between rests. CoDzilla can do all 4. My wizard can do 3. And then he ports away and goes to sleep for 8 hours.


Wizards and sorcerers have the absolute lowest survivability out of all of the classes, bar none. This improves later with more powerful defensive spells, many of which are more beneficial if cast on other people. Stoneskin is more useful cast on your party's fighter than on yourself under most circumstances. Even with these spells, a wizard or sorcerer can achieve roughly the survivability of the more martial classes, but is only able to do so for a short amount of time (whereas the fighter and barbarian is always that tough to kill). This is why level 7-9 wizard spells tend to be ridiculously powerful. They only get a few of them, which is a major limitation when you're expected to have six battles between resting.

Sigh. You will never ever hit a well played wizard as a fighter. Never. It can be made RAW impossible.


Furthermore, wizards are largely reliant on the mercy of DM die rolls, or DM placed loot, insofar as what scrolls they are able to scribe, as a level 20 wizard's spellbook is largely determined by what scrolls he was able to scribe over his career. A sorcerer knows certain spells automatically, but he can never learn any more. That's his balancing act. The spells he needs, he may not have, and may never have.
You can make an unkillable wizard with only the level up spells. And the RAW assumes that you have access to all of them.


Clerics and druids automatically know all of the spells on their list. Bards gain spells like sorcerers. They actually get more of them too, albeit their most powerful spells are somewhat weaker. Wizards, however, have the lowest number of spells that they learn automatically. They have the potential to learn the most spells out of all of the classes, but they have to find them over their adventures, or purchase them as scrolls. Any DM with half a brain is going to assign a sort of rarity to the higher level spells. For instance, you can't just go to Walmart and buy Time Stop. How many level 17+ wizards are actually in the world? How many of them are willing to pay the exp cost to scribe scrolls on a regular basis so that some random schmuck can go to a shop and buy 9th level spells? Furthermore, finding a spell scroll requires that someone scribed it, which means that someone else has to know the spell to do so. First level scrolls are common as dirt, because that's how we teach our apprentices the ropes. Ninth level spells, not so much. What archwizard wants his rival, Joe, killing him with the very Meteor Swarm spell that he sold Bob last week?
Meteror Swarm? Why would you ever get that? With only level up spells you can make the unbeatable wizard.


Wizards get a slight bone in that rather than being totally dependent on random die rolls and the mercy of the DM, a wizard is able to pick and choose his magic items. At least, he's able to do so within the restrictions and limitations of the feats he possesses and the spells he knows. Also within the limitations of however much exp he's willing to spend (exp that he has to earn back the hard way). Wizards tend to level a lot slower than other classes. So yes, the level 20 wizard is going to be a badass. They really do earn it in the long run. So does the sorcerer. They've played at the gaming table for two years with the severe disadvantage of dying if something looks at them wrong.
Those are idiot wizards. You are supposed to level every 13 encounters. In game that is about a level per week.


A level 20 wizard might very well kick anybody's ass in scenarios that aren't even remotely ideal (the true mark of power). These monumental ass-kickings are anything but instant. On top of that, it takes a lot of work, emphasis on the word "lot," in order to be a level 20 wizard. You still only have about 100 hit points. One cast of Magic Missle, and then Power Word: Kill rubs you out with no save. Compare that with all of the business you unloaded to work over that fighter. We don't even need to maximize a level 5 and a level 9 spell for it, which either requires a level 12 spell slot or a 121,500gp magic item, let alone cap it off with a 1500gp level 7 spell. Furthermore, a quickened Magic Missle is a level 5 slot. You can be killed in one round without your assailant even needing to do anything fancy like quicken and maximize level 9 spells.
Still requires a high level caster. No one has said that another level 20 caster can't kill a level 20 wizard.


So while you're going on and on about how a level 7 spell is unbalanced because it allows an "inescapable death trap" to be set up with the help of multiple level 9 spells, I feel it's important to point out how difficult it actually is to play a wizard all the way up to level 20, as well as how easy it still is to die once you get there.

It isn't difficult at all. And it isn't easy to die once your there if your half way competent.

Talya
2007-04-02, 05:11 PM
99 times out of 100...the balance issues BWL and others raise with casters vs. melee indicate a flaw in the DMing, as opposed to a flaw in the RAW.

Caught off his guard and unprepared, 1 round is how long it takes the wizard to die to (insert random martial class).


You don't go around with contingencies on yourself all the time, prepared to the hilt. it's impossible. Any DM worth anything would never allow it, they'd keep you off balance.

Many of the arguments given treat the game as if it were an MMO or some other computer game. Like, you can just go out and find a nearby dragon to solo to make some money and exp. Go grind a bit...where's your DM that you're able to do this? D&D doesn't work that way...

Corolinth
2007-04-02, 05:15 PM
Druids can't wildshape in and out of forms all day. It has a duration, and a number of uses per day. Likewise, they have a certain number of spells per day. Likewise, cleric spells are limited to their daily spell slots. The fact that you can click a button to rest and regain those spells and such at any time you feel like in a computer game does not mean they're unbalancing in a pen and paper campaign. Wild shape appears to have issues, and compelling arguments do exist that it needs to be tweaked, but they're far from conclusive. Every scenario I've seen presented has been a hand-crafted scenario that completely ignores the way a game actually unfolds at the table. A big component of wild shape insofar as game mechanics is the lack of opposable thumbs. Those can come in really handy in a dungeon. Furthermore, it's not wild shape that's unbalanced, it's natural spell (a feat added in the 3.5 revisions), and even that isn't all that unbalanced unless a druid happens to have certain spells memorized. More and more variables have to be thrown in before we have an overpowered scenario. Righteous Might is essential to the mean nasty cleric badass, and while you could theoretically load up all of your level 5 slots so that you can do it in every fight (hopefully), but consider the following scenario:

Fighter: We're boned.
Rogue: Yeah, we're pretty screwed.
Fighter: That wizard is going to destroy the town of Hozd.
Cleric: Yeah. It sucks to be them.
Wizard: You know what would really help?
Cleric: What's that?
Wizard: If I weren't a frog!
Cleric: It's not my fault! You failed your fortitude save!
Wizard: Well, if you weren't a complete moron, you could turn me back.

If you happen to have certain specific spells memorized, you just might be unstoppable. However, most people will have an assortment of spells memorized to accommodate for the old adage, "schtuff happens." There's a lot of stuff that can happen in a typical night at the table. Some of that stuff really sucks. It sucks even worse if you're not prepared because your cleric or druid thinks he's He-Man.

As for your DM screwing you not contributing to game balance... what are you smoking? Having a competent DM is an absolute requirement to having any semblance of balance within a campaign. That's the biggest problem with most complaints about game balance - a stupid DM. Money and experience costs tend to be prohobitive. Feats and spells from supplemental rules sources are labeled as supplemental and optional for a reason. They're not suited to all campaigns. Magical items are listed in the DMG for a reason. The need for a DM to serve as a judge is especially necessary in a campaign where you're not starting at level 1. It's very popular these days to start off characters in the mid range. Why do you think that is? I'll give you a hint: lots of level 1 characters die. Also, players get to go shopping for magic items, and get to customize their character in a manner that otherwise wouldn't have played itself out at the table.

As for my example of a level 20 wizard killing a wizard far easier than he kills a fighter. That was meant to illustrate a point. This thread started off as a post about why a spell was overpowered, and went the direction of, "well you could cast this, this, and this spell in succession and..." We went to great lengths to concoct an instant win scenario. That's a lot of work to kill off one fighter. Then we look how easy a wizard dies. That's survivability. That's part of the balance. Two spells compared to seven or eight. The wizard is paying for his perceived advantage. We didn't go into the ways in which a fighter might conceiveably throw a wrench into the plan, like grappling for instance. Yes, a wizard could conceivably fly, but that's another spell that he has to cast - a point that seems lost on many people.

Finally, all of this overlooks one overarching theme. Using one-on-one battles between character classes to determine game balance has completely missed the point. At level 20, the wizard, or the cleric, or whatever class might very well beat every other character class, and they might do it every time, regardless of the circumstances of our rigged fight. That's completely irrelevant. If anybody honestly believes that actually has the slightest thing to do with whether the classes are balanced, then I weep for their overall gaming experience.

All it takes to stop the raging CoDzilla is an anti-magic shell. Now they're sub-par fighters with a lower hit die, lower BAB, and a few feats that aren't doing them any good. A sorcerer is a glass cannon. He would've died long ago if it weren't for the rest of the gaming group. Probably would've been goblins that did him in. The only person with the slightest hope of defeating the evil wizard terrorizing the countryside from his tower might be another wizard, but how is he going to get there if he has to save all of his most powerful spells for that one battle?

For a test, I picked a monster out of the Fiend Folio and threw it at my players. I pulled a CR11 monster out and sent it at a level 13 party. There's five of them, instead of the four that the CR rating system balances around, and I was rather generous and lenient in the feats and such that I allowed them. They have a Clericzilla, and their unstoppable glass cannon firebunny sorceress. I almost wiped out half the party. The creature was well within the range of what they can defeat, in fact it's below them. I didn't do anything fancy, and I didn't fudge any rolls. The fact that CoDzilla, with the right spells, can outperform a fighter, or the fact that a level 20 wizard always beats a level 20 fighter didn't mean a damn thing in that fight. Classes are balanced around how well they can contribute towards overcoming whatever challenges they're presented by their DM.

Talya
2007-04-02, 05:21 PM
*cough*

I will point out that your cannon firebunny sorceress and her amazing improved-blink, enlarged melee prowess saved the party!

/rude DM

NullAshton
2007-04-02, 05:30 PM
I believe that most us agree, YES, a wizard will defeat a fighter on a one on one battle. What us disagree on is if fighters are still useful in a party. My opinion on that is yes, that there are sufficient weaknesses to both the cleric, druid, and wizard that fighters and other non-magical classes still contribute enough to make the players who play those classes happy.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 06:06 PM
99 times out of 100...the balance issues BWL and others raise with casters vs. melee indicate a flaw in the DMing, as opposed to a flaw in the RAW.
Sorry, but NO. In order to make a wizard be on the same level of effectiveness (and, at higher levels, in as much danger) as other characters, a DM has to go to a lot of trouble. It becomes very apparent that he's "picking on" the wizard. And, yes, a DM can always just give all the enemies he wants to be tough SR HD+15 or something, or have a pit fiend gate in, take the level 11 wizard's spellbook, and gate out, or something.
But the DM has to go to a lot more trouble to challenge the wizard than anyone else.


Caught off his guard and unprepared, 1 round is how long it takes the wizard to die to (insert random martial class).
Sure... unless they fly off, or teleport away, or... etc.
Like Batman, wizards prepare. A number of useful spells are hours/level (like Overland Flight). Extended with a rod (11k for a Regular extend rod) or just normally, that will last *more* than a day.


You don't go around with contingencies on yourself all the time, prepared to the hilt. it's impossible. Any DM worth anything would never allow it, they'd keep you off balance.
...any DM worth his salt wouldn't let you cast Contingency, and cast various hours/level spells? Why not?


Many of the arguments given treat the game as if it were an MMO or some other computer game. Like, you can just go out and find a nearby dragon to solo to make some money and exp. Go grind a bit...where's your DM that you're able to do this? D&D doesn't work that way...
...with all the spells that he has availible, why can't a wizard locate a dragon? Presuming the game world has them, of course.

Talya
2007-04-02, 08:08 PM
...any DM worth his salt wouldn't let you cast Contingency, and cast various hours/level spells? Why not?

Sure he will. But then he'll trigger it, and shortly thereafter induce the same circumstances again that the contingency was to protect against, now that it's gone.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 08:18 PM
A wizard can have scrolls, but there's only so many, and he likely won't, no.
That wouldn't be unreasonable, but Contingency is for last-ditch circumstances--i.e. they trigger when everything else has gone wrong. That has to happen in the first place, and doing it repeatedly certainly wouldn't be easy.

greenknight
2007-04-02, 08:30 PM
I love how you guys are jumping all over me with examples of ideal battlefield conditions for a level 20 wizard. Under ideal conditions, a level 20 wizard is kicking anybody's ass in a one-on-one fight. (Actually, under ideal conditions, your chosen protagonist is winning - that's sort of the definition of ideal conditions, but I digress).

The obvious answer then is to create a single classed 20th level Fighter and show a scenario where the character can beat a 20th level single classed Cleric, Druid or Wizard, allowing each of those to have optimal builds. It can be done, but the only way I've seen it involves luring the spellcaster into a dead magic zone. Exclude that possibility and see how well you do. As for books, you can choose to either keep it Core, or allow splatbooks. I've even seen Core only Clerics, Druids and Wizards beat Fighters using Core + Splatbooks.


The advantage of being a level 20 wizard is that most likely, you can kill anyone in a one-on-one fight, even if you're not under ideal conditions. Now I want you all to consider who always used to die in the first battle of their very first adventure of the 1st or 2nd edition campaign because they had an AC of 9, 4hp, and one first level spell?

Balance didn't really exist in the earlier editions either, and the earlier editions of the game aren't really all that relevant to 3.5e anyway. But yes, from levels 1 - 4, the Fighter (and Barbarian) pretty much dominate combat. Once you start to go beyond those levels, the Druid comes into the picture, then the Cleric (at around level 9 - 10) and finally the Wizard (around level 14). Those levels are for Core only characters, if you use splatbooks, they might change.


Anybody read 8-Bit Theater? Who always gets stabbed in the head (by his own party), yet has never died? That's right. Fighter! Who's always dead? Black Mage!

And in OOTS, Roy is still quite effective, and Elan is doing great at melee combat. It's a comic, don't expect it to match what will happen in-game, particularly if all the players optimize their characters.


I'm reading lots of one-on-one encounters, and it's occurring to me that the CR-rating system is balanced around a party of four adventurers.

It is, but at higher levels, one full spellcaster can pretty much put paid to an equal CR encounter, so the whole party isn't needed. Don't believe me? Come up with any CR 20 creature, and provided that creature doesn't have the spellcasting ability of a 16th level full caster (or more), I can show how a Cleric or Wizard can defeat it (assuming you haven't placed the encounter in a dead magic area). BWL and Emperor Tippy could probably come up with an even better way. A Druid could probably do it too, but I'm not as familiar with that class so I won't try, but someone else might want to give it a go.


However, this isn't a guaranteed win because it's completely shot to hell by a cleric or wizard casting Anti-Magic Field.

Spellcaster vs Spellcaster is a very different scenario to Spellcaster vs non-Spellcaster. But whichever one gets the edge in that battle is pretty much going to determine what happens to the Fighter in the end.


Now, what are the other three party members doing?

Sitting around drinking tea, for all the Cleric, Druid or Wizard care. If it's an adventuring party, 4 Level 20 characters are supposed to be able to handle a CR 20 encounter. But as a foe, 1 ECL 20 character is considered to be CR 20, provided those 20 levels (or whatever is needed to make up ECL 20) are in an appropriate adventuring class. In other words, as a foe, 1 20th level Human Fighter is considered to be CR20, and a well played 20th level Wizard could easily defeat that character without working up too much of a sweat. A party of 4 16th level characters would also be a CR20 encounter. According to the Epic Level Handbook, 4 20th level characters would be a CR24 encounter.


I've listened to enough bitching and complaining about class balance to understand how it works. The vast majority of the time, you have a pissed off munchkin with a hair up his ass because he could conceivably be defeated. Alternatively, you have a munchkin with a raging hard-on for his latest invincible character scheme (that probably isn't half as invincible as he thinks - see above). Every now and then there's a real game balance issue at stake, but that's the exception rather than the rule.

Sigh. Most of the people who talk about "unbeatable" characters are doing so to point out that there is a real game balance issue at stake. Sure, some do it just to brag, but usually the idea is to highlight things which are broken in the rules.


The fact that a level 20 wizard could put another character in an inescapable situation of almost certain death, after expending 1/3 of his spell slots to do so (most of which are in the level 7-9 range) is not one of those exceptions.

Ok. So, a character who can singlehandedly defeat a CR20 encounter while only using 1/3 of his/her/it's spell resources is not a balance issue? One CR20 encounter is the equivalent of 4 CR20 encounters if the character is doing it solo! In order to do that, the character should have used practically all the available resources, just like if the character faced 4 of those challenges with the support of an adventuring party. Instead, we have a scenario where the Wizard is good to solo another 1 or 2 CR20 encounters that same day (which would almost take the character to 21st level in a single day).


Eleven fighter bonus feats and a +20 BAB lets him do all kinds of crazy stuff.

And the best thing that Fighter could do with those Feats is use one of them to get a full spellcaster Cohort, because that Fighter desperately needs magical support.


Classes are not balanced with the assumption that they can buy this or that magical item listed in the back of the DMG. You may have noticed that level 20 characters don't tend to have any form of inherent bonus to any of their ability scores resulting from wish spells, magic tomes, or magic manuals. And frankly, that would probably be the most obvious thing to spend all of that money on.

All of what money? The characters outlined in the DMG are NPCs, so they use the NPC WBL charts. At 20th level, an NPC's WBL is 220,000gp, and there's a lot of other stuff to buy with that. By comparison, a 20th level PC's WBL is 760,000gp, so there's a lot more gold for the character to throw around.


I'm not entirely convinced that the infamous CoDzilla actually exists.

Really? I tried to create one with this post, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2244519&postcount=389) using Core Only rules. Further discussion showed that the CZilla tactic would probably be best from 10th through to 16th level, after which casting spells (Gate, in particular) would be even more effective. But even then, the boosts chosen for CZilla were useful for defence.


Furthermore, even if it does, they can only do it for one or two fights (game balance assumes you're involved in six between resting).

SIX??? Read "What's Challenging?" (DMG, p49). There it states that one encounter with an equal CR foe should take up about 20% of an adventuring party's resources, and after about 4 equal CR encounters, the party should rest because a 5th would probably wipe them out. So if you're giving them 6, I hope they are lower CR than the party, because otherwise you're going for a TPK.


Furthermore, wizards are largely reliant on the mercy of DM die rolls, or DM placed loot, insofar as what scrolls they are able to scribe, as a level 20 wizard's spellbook is largely determined by what scrolls he was able to scribe over his career.

There are those spells gained automatically each level, and if necessary the Wizard could always do some research.


Wizards, however, have the lowest number of spells that they learn automatically. They have the potential to learn the most spells out of all of the classes

I think Clerics have access to more, unless you count splatbooks. It's not terribly important anyway, since quality beats quantity every time.


For instance, you can't just go to Walmart and buy Time Stop.

No, but you might be able to automatically pick it up with a level gain. Or you could do a bit of research to find out where the best place to buy magic items in all the planes is and then Plane Shift to get there. You probably won't arrive at the precise location, but it shouldn't be too hard to cover the remaining distance.


How many level 17+ wizards are actually in the world?

A better question is how many level 17+ Wizards exist, because at higher levels a character can travel the planes to find them.


How many of them are willing to pay the exp cost to scribe scrolls on a regular basis so that some random schmuck can go to a shop and buy 9th level spells?

You know, I never understand why people insist on Wizards learning spells from scrolls. A Wizard can learn spells from a spellbook just as easily as from a scroll, the spellbook is still there once the Wizard has learned the spell, and it costs no XP for a Wizard to write spells in a spellbook. So, a high level Wizard could easily spend a few weeks to duplicate his spellbook, and then charge other Wizards for access to that duplicate and make good money with no XP loss. Or the Wizard could insist on a spell trade - one spell from the book in exchange for another spell that isn't there. And that's not even considering spell books obtained as treasure when one Wizard defeats another.


I feel it's important to point out how difficult it actually is to play a wizard all the way up to level 20, as well as how easy it still is to die once you get there.

A Wizard starts getting powerful around level 5 or 6, so it's not really that much suffering. And at high levels, it's not all that easy to kill off a Wizard, unless it's a spellcaster vs spellcaster battle.


Druids can't wildshape in and out of forms all day. It has a duration, and a number of uses per day

For a 20th level Druid, that's a duration of 20 hours (per Wild Shape change) and 6 Wild Shapes per day (plus another 3 in Elemental form, and the potential to use Shapechange). Assuming a maximum of 4 encounters per day, that seems close enough to me.


Likewise, they have a certain number of spells per day. Likewise, cleric spells are limited to their daily spell slots.

And Scrolls, and Wands, and Staffs. That's assuming they don't have enough spell slots available to do the job (my example Cleric has 69 spell slots available, so it takes a while to run out of them).


A big component of wild shape insofar as game mechanics is the lack of opposable thumbs.

Until you can start Wild Shaping into tool using forms like a Baboon or Legendary Ape (MM2).


Fighter: We're boned.

....

Cleric: It's not my fault! You failed your fortitude save!
Wizard: Well, if you weren't a complete moron, you could turn me back

There's a very simple solution here. Change that Fighter to a Druid, and then you have a 3rd full spellcaster (with animal companion), with many more spells available per day (and a wider variety of them too). See, the real weakness in that party at higher levels is the Fighter, not the Cleric or Wizard.


All it takes to stop the raging CoDzilla is an anti-magic shell.

And this anti-magic shell is cast by a non-spellcaster? Because as we all know, spellcasters can counter spellcasters quite effectively, it's the non-spellcasters who have trouble countering spellcasters.


I pulled a CR11 monster out and sent it at a level 13 party. There's five of them, instead of the four that the CR rating system balances around, and I was rather generous and lenient in the feats and such that I allowed them. They have a Clericzilla, and their unstoppable glass cannon firebunny sorceress. I almost wiped out half the party.

No disrespect to the player, but firebunny isn't really an optimal build for a spellcaster. It can be good fun to play though. But if you want to see a real struggle, try pitting a group of 4 or 5 5th or 6th level Fighters (and/or Barbarians) against a Troll. Forget about wiping out half the party, that can easily lead to a TPK. At higher levels, put them up against a CR appropriate Dragon and see how they do.

martyboy74
2007-04-02, 08:32 PM
Sure he will. But then he'll trigger it, and shortly thereafter induce the same circumstances again that the contingency was to protect against, now that it's gone.
So the DM purposefully mobs the wizard to wear down his contingencies? Yep. Real balanced there. That DM definitely isn't picking on the wizard to balance the game.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-02, 08:35 PM
Why oh why does every balancing thread have to end up in these endless debates of warrior vs. caster? It's so so tiresome. This thread should be discussing whether forcecage should allow a reflex save, sr, whether it would then still require the material component, and so forth.

Talya
2007-04-02, 08:43 PM
I'm the firebunny in question.

I have a pretty diverse spell selection though. I just have +2 caster level to fire spells, "Bloodline of Fire" feat, efreeti blood, so he thinks of me as fire bunny.

More specifically, I play an enchantment-themed sorceress with a some nasty burning thingies.

He put us up against a construct that was utterly immune to to magic in almost all forms, the exception being spells that specifically target plants or wood. (How many of those do you keep memorized on your spellcaster?) It was also immune to fire damage, peircing, cold, pretty much everything but slashing and acid. (Note that a spell that does acid damage was still useless...but the scimitar my arabian-themed sorceress carries was an acidic burst thing.)

The main attack the thing had was touch-ac/grapple based...so the poor heavily armored cleric was completely screwed. The fact that I had set it on fire (oh yes, it burns, it just takes no damage while burning) didn't help the poor guy when he got grappled.

Talya
2007-04-02, 08:44 PM
So the DM purposefully mobs the wizard to wear down his contingencies? Yep. Real balanced there. That DM definitely isn't picking on the wizard to balance the game.


Absolutely balanced. You pick on whichever person works the hardest to make themselves munchkin. Heck, the more invulnerable they think they are, the more likely you should be to kill them. That's what the DM is for.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-02, 08:53 PM
So, it was a custom golem that was immune to no-SR spells? Real RAW, there. Yes, if you make a monster completely immune to magic, spellcasters will have a hard time.

And I don't think you understand. The fact that you have to mob the wizard goes to show that the wizard is more powerful. Few people worry about challenging their fighter. It's easy--too easy.
A wizard casting Contingency and Overland Flight is hardly a munchkin.

greenknight
2007-04-02, 08:59 PM
He put us up against a construct that was utterly immune to to magic in almost all forms, the exception being spells that specifically target plants or wood. (How many of those do you keep memorized on your spellcaster?) It was also immune to fire damage, peircing, cold, pretty much everything but slashing and acid. (Note that a spell that does acid damage was still useless...but the scimitar my arabian-themed sorceress carries was an acidic burst thing.)

The main attack the thing had was touch-ac/grapple based...so the poor heavily armored cleric was completely screwed. The fact that I had set it on fire (oh yes, it burns, it just takes no damage while burning) didn't help the poor guy when he got grappled.

Not sure just how immune to magic that construct was, but a 13th level Wizard could probably have dropped a Forcecage on it and defeated it right there. Solid Fog might have helped a little too, to give the party buffing time. But it's interesting that the creature was pretty much designed to ignore most spell effects, almost like the DM was worried that the encounter would be too easy otherwise. But again, I wonder just how a group of heavily armoured Fighters would work out in that situation....

Talya
2007-04-02, 09:04 PM
The construct was from the fiend folio, I think. He didn't create it for the situation.

And the paladin actually got immobilized first. Then the cleric. It was the ranger and I doing melee damage to kill it...

And any 13th level wizard who blows a 1500gp spell component on a CR11 target deserves to beat it, anyway. Especially a target that gives no treasure...

greenknight
2007-04-02, 09:05 PM
Why oh why does every balancing thread have to end up in these endless debates of warrior vs. caster?

It's because someone comes along and points out how this obviously unbalanced spell is actually quite balanced after all. Then come the examples of what this spell can do, and the most likely target is a Fighter, who usually can't do much about it. However, the same arguement usually also works against many non-spellcasting monsters, so even though the Fighter is the example specified, it shouldn't be all that difficult to apply it to any non-spellcaster - PC, NPC or monster.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:11 PM
A 10' cube would be worthless against creatures larger than medium.

Talya
2007-04-02, 09:11 PM
There it is. Fiend Folio, pg. 188. The "Wicker Man." It's huge, bigger than a force cage.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-02, 09:17 PM
A 10' cube would be worthless against creatures larger than medium.

Fine, it's not quite the uber-beats-all spell like shapechange is. But tell that to a death knight (typical BBEG) trapped in it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:26 PM
How many enemies do you fight in your typical campaign that are LA 0 humanoid fights of level equal to the party wizard?

There are so many ways around forcecage for a DM to take, it's not even funny.

Question:
If forcecage is cast on rough ground, where, say, the target is standing in a hole 1' deep, while the surrounding terrain ranges from foot level to +1 feet above him, does it form?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-02, 09:51 PM
A 10' cube would be worthless against creatures larger than medium.

Re-read page 149 of the PBB, Table 8-4, "Creature Size and Scale." A 10-foot cube will trap up to a Large creature (uncomfortably cramped perhaps, but it's unlikely that the caster is concerned about the creature's comfort).


There it is. Fiend Folio, pg. 188. The "Wicker Man." It's huge, bigger than a force cage.

Oops! You're right. Well, darn. The Forcecage won't ... oh, wait. No, I'm sorry. It turns out that the "barred cage" version of Forcecage produces a 20-foot cube, large enough to trap anything up to and including Gargantuan.

You know, I think some of you are getting the wrong idea about all of this. This isn't people saying, "Wizardz pwnz0r all!" and crowing with glee about it. This is more a case of concerned people trying to bring to light very real balance issues. Quite the opposite of what you seem to think it is, this is a call either for wizards (and, to a slightly lesser extent, other spellcasters) to be brought back down and into balance or for other classes to be brought up to the spellcasters' level somehow. The goal is for the game to be fun for everyone, not just the people who play casters.

Or at least it should be.

Talya
2007-04-02, 09:54 PM
Now...epic wizard with "ignore material components" casting forcecage is rather unbalanced...but I don't think ANYTHING is balanced at epic levels really.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 09:56 PM
Re-read page 149 of the PBB, Table 8-4, "Creature Size and Scale." A 10-foot cube will trap up to a Large creature (uncomfortably cramped perhaps, but it's unlikely that the caster is concerned about the creature's comfort).

Right. But is that creature just standing around, waiting for the wizard to put it in a cage, maybe curling up into a convenient size so he can be trapped? Unlikely.

I like the idea of giving all the creatures a reflex save if they're within 5' of the cage to negate it, similar to the wall of ice spell. Add a +4 to the DC if the caster uses the bars method.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-02, 10:22 PM
Right. But is that creature just standing around, waiting for the wizard to put it in a cage, maybe curling up into a convenient size so he can be trapped? Unlikely.

I like the idea of giving all the creatures a reflex save if they're within 5' of the cage to negate it, similar to the wall of ice spell. Add a +4 to the DC if the caster uses the bars method.

Um ... I was the one who suggested that Forcecage should have a Reflex save (and be subject to spell resistance, and even breakable) to begin with. That was the original point of this thread.

Again, the point is not to show how wizards are "t3h ub3r." It's to point out grossly unfair imbalances and look at how they might be fixed.

Forcecage, as written, is grossly unfair. It needs to be fixed.

There's a lot more that needs to be fixed, mind you. But ... one step at a time.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 10:33 PM
Um ... I was the one who suggested that Forcecage should have a Reflex save (and be subject to spell resistance, and even breakable) to begin with. That was the original point of this thread.

I know. Am I not allowed to like the idea?


Giving it a concentration +1 round duration would be another pretty good fix.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-02, 11:03 PM
I know. Am I not allowed to like the idea?


Giving it a concentration +1 round duration would be another pretty good fix.

Sorry, I took it as you telling me ... well, I clearly misunderstood your intent.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-02, 11:22 PM
Giving it a concentration duration won't do anything. Once the wizard captures the fighter he sits around and taunts him for a minute or two while the cloudkill kills him.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-02, 11:54 PM
Giving it a concentration duration won't do anything. Once the wizard captures the fighter he sits around and taunts him for a minute or two while the cloudkill kills him.

Who said anything about a fighter?

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-03, 12:10 AM
The fighter is who you Forcecage. You don't use it on casters.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:14 AM
The fighter is who you Forcecage. You don't use it on casters.

Oh. My bad. I didn't realize all enemy NPCs were LA 0 humanoid fighters of equal level to the party's wizard.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-03, 12:21 AM
sigh. Fighter is a synonym for any non caster of a size that can be crammed into a forcecage.

lord_khaine
2007-04-03, 08:59 AM
to drive this back on track, yes i belive forcecage is out of line with other lv 7 spells, and it should allow at least a reflex save to get out of the way, of course, in that case i also think it would be fair to change the component to a focus.

NullAshton
2007-04-03, 10:07 AM
I don't really think forcecage is that overpowered. One, it's material component is about 1,500gp, which adds up when you use it encounter after encouner. That already relegates it to 'when you need' only. Second, the barred version just prevents most melee attacks, but there are several disadvantages. One, spells and breath weapons can go through it just fine, so this is where the pit fiend or whatever hits the wizard with a meteor swarm for nasty damage(Or some other attack.) The solid version isn't that solid, a huge green dragon is a CR 13, exactly when you'd get forcecage(Said pit fiend is large, but he has greater teleport at will and dispel magic).

Now lets look at a few things. Hmmm... cloudkill is ineffective against anyone immune to posion... oh look, pitfiends are immune to posion! So are most demons and devils with a higher CR than 13! Note that I'm just using demons and devils as an example, as they are a staple enemy for stereotypical good alligned adventurers to fight. There are other things for you to use, like acid fog, but they incidentally have immunity to acid as well.

In conclusion, it is powerful, yes. But it is offset by several things, and generally is not a spell you would want to use often. It is a battlefield control spell like wall of stone, that would be used to get something out of your hair long enough to prepare longer for it.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 10:59 AM
sigh. Fighter is a synonym for any non caster of a size that can be crammed into a forcecage.

It's a spurious metric.

1. Cloudkill does not effect things with immunity to poison, the undead, or constructs. That happens to be a lot of creatures. Additionally, many creatures can move out of the cage extradimensionally.

2. The disparity in power and party contribution between a high level fighter and a wizard of equal level is not in dispute, nor is it being disputed in this thread. (As a side note, 6 levels of horzon walker, or a psiwarrior with dimension door, psionic, will port out. If the psiwarrior spends the additional 6 pp, he also gets an attack in that round.)

3. In a space with a ceiling lower than 10', the spell fails. In a space less than 10' wide, the spell also fails.

4. We are looking at the effectiveness of forcecage compared to other 7th level spells vs. monsters, not the effectiveness of a fighter vs. a wizard of equal gear and equipment on featureless plain.


As to other level 7 spells that are really great- reverse gravity. No material cost, no save, and no SR. Problem with the duration being by round, though.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-03, 11:21 AM
Some good points there Tor but I have to disagree on one thing:
The disparity in power and party contribution between a high level fighter and a wizard of equal level is not in dispute, nor is it being disputed in this thread.Discussing that disparity actually is quite relevant to this thread (and no matter what you say, people are discussing it here), even though the stated question is more along the lines of "does forcecage need a fix." That is because part of the argument for forcecage being too strong is "it allows wizards to win too easily in X situation," which happens to be vs noncasters (or 'fighters,' by which is meant enemies with primarily melee capabilities, NOT the party fighter) in this case. So arguing whether it does in fact allow wizards to do that, is very relevant.

That's what the argument is about: one side says "yes, forcecage needs a fix because you can autowin" and the other side says "no, forcecage does not let you autowin, so that's not a good argument for it needing a fix."

Further,
We are looking at the effectiveness of forcecage compared to other 7th level spells vs. monsters, not the effectiveness of a fighter vs. a wizard of equal gear and equipment on featureless plain.
You honestly don't believe those two comparisons are related? Again, calling the enemy "a fighter" isn't meant to refer to an NPC with that class: it also refers to melee-type non-casting monsters. If forcecage can be used to set up an unbeatable win condition vs. such monsters (which may or may not be true, thus the discussion) it might be more powerful than other 7th-level spells, which cannot be so used.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 11:29 AM
Some good points there Tor but I have to disagree on one thing:Discussing that disparity actually is quite relevant to this thread (and no matter what you say, people are discussing it here),

Yes, you're right. I should have said "isn't the point of the thread" or some such thing.


even though the stated question is more along the lines of "does forcecage need a fix." That is because part of the argument for forcecage being too strong is "it allows wizards to win too easily in X situation," which happens to be vs noncasters (or 'fighters,' by which is meant enemies with primarily melee capabilities, NOT the party fighter) in this case. So arguing whether it does in fact allow wizards to do that, is very relevant.

That's what the argument is about: one side says "yes, forcecage needs a fix because you can autowin" and the other side says "no, forcecage does not let you autowin, so that's not a good argument for it needing a fix."

Further,You honestly don't believe those two comparisons are related? Again, calling the enemy "a fighter" isn't meant to refer to an NPC with that class: it also refers to melee-type non-casting monsters. If forcecage can be used to set up an unbeatable win condition vs. such monsters (which may or may not be true, thus the discussion) it might be more powerful than other 7th-level spells, which cannot be so used.

Forcecage isn't a win button, except in situations versus enemies that the fighter will also have little trouble defeating.

Unless, of course, the wizard makes his ranged touch attack and overcomes SR to bar dimensional movement.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 11:42 AM
Now lets look at a few things. Hmmm... cloudkill is ineffective against anyone immune to posion... oh look, pitfiends are immune to posion! So are most demons and devils with a higher CR than 13! Note that I'm just using demons and devils as an example, as they are a staple enemy for stereotypical good alligned adventurers to fight. There are other things for you to use, like acid fog, but they incidentally have immunity to acid as well.

Yes, because Tippy would have any difficulty, whatsoever, killing a pit fiend in about a round or two with a wizard of a level equal to its CR. Nevermind balors and the like have been brought up more or less constantly, and the explanation of how effortlessly they would be killed, even if they tried to surprise the wizard by teleporting in, has been laid out ... constantly. It's like dealing with a broken record, as the same already-demolished arguments keep clawing their way back out of their graves, horribly disfigured and rotting, yet vaguely recognizable to those of us who once knew them in life.

Wizards can autowin against PC non-spellcasters (and most monster non-spellcasters) using Forcecage. This has not yet been successfully disputed. Certain creatures require other tactics, but that doesn't make the spell's ability to automatically, unfairly win equal- or even higher-CR encounters with just the wizard working alone not broken.


It's a spurious metric.

1. Cloudkill does not effect things with immunity to poison, the undead, or constructs. That happens to be a lot of creatures. Additionally, many creatures can move out of the cage extradimensionally.

I assume you either don't know what Dimensional Lock does, or you didn't really read the explanations before posting this. In the former case, I recommend reviewing the rules. In the latter case, I recommend reviewing the scenarios presented here.


2. The disparity in power and party contribution between a high level fighter and a wizard of equal level is not in dispute, nor is it being disputed in this thread. (As a side note, 6 levels of horzon walker, or a psiwarrior with dimension door, psionic, will port out. If the psiwarrior spends the additional 6 pp, he also gets an attack in that round.)

Again, Dimensional Lock says you're wrong.


3. In a space with a ceiling lower than 10', the spell fails. In a space less than 10' wide, the spell also fails.

Golly gee. You're right. The spell is perfectly fair because occasionally, the wizard might encounter something in a cramped hallway. Because, you know, the wizard couldn't use something else or, if all else failed, simply Teleport away and deal with it later.

Clearly, the existance of relatively rare situational battlefield conditions makes the spell's autowin properties perfectly reasonable.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 11:46 AM
I do know about dimensional lock, yes. What happens when, on the next round, the creature moves out of the 20ft area?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:00 PM
I do know about dimensional lock, yes. What happens when, on the next round, the creature moves out of the 20ft area?

How? It's in a Forcecage, remember?

If you read the whole scenario, you should already know both were cast during Time Stop.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:08 PM
How? It's in a Forcecage, remember?

If you read the whole scenario, you should already know both were cast during Time Stop.

Oh. So it's vs a wizard who can cast level 9 spells. That's at least a level 17 character. Yeah, those can do some awesome stuff.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that forcecage was highest level spell known. Of course a level 20 wizard is really good. It's a level 20 wizard.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-03, 12:12 PM
How? It's in a Forcecage, remember?

If you read the whole scenario, you should already know both were cast during Time Stop.

I recommend you don't get dragged down into arguing this any further. I think those reading this thread in the future will get the main point and either adopt the house rule or not. You can never convince everyone of everything. 95% of the folks on this forum are not arguing from actual game experience with the game feature in question anyway.

By the way, little trick I've learned as a DM. When your players argue and moan that their favorite spell/feat is actually balanced, just use it back on them.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-03, 12:15 PM
By the way, little trick I've learned as a DM. When your players argue and moan that their favorite spell/feat is actually balanced, just use it back on them.

Yeah. I like that one.

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:40 PM
Oh. So it's vs a wizard who can cast level 9 spells. That's at least a level 17 character. Yeah, those can do some awesome stuff.

I'm sorry, I was under the impression that forcecage was highest level spell known. Of course a level 20 wizard is really good. It's a level 20 wizard.

Yes, but that should apply to a level 20 fighter as well. The problem is that the level 20 wizard can annihilate the level 20 fighter with essentially no chance of failure. In fact, he/she can probably annihilate a level 30 fighter just as effortlessly ...

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-03, 12:43 PM
By the way, little trick I've learned as a DM. When your players argue and moan that their favorite spell/feat is actually balanced, just use it back on them.

... and then discover that that level 17-or-higher wizard can counter that tactic, as can any spellcaster. After all, we were talking about how non-spellcasters are the ones who are instantly rendered helpless by this trick.

I have another idea! Instead, as a DM, you could proactively fix the broken spell!

Just a thought. :smallsmile:

StarWarz2
2007-04-03, 12:52 PM
One thing that I've noticed (both in this discussion and my experience w/ D&D over the last 25 years or so) - spells tend to be in balance (more or less) for the level that you get them at. It's when you start combining the spells with OTHER (usually higher level) spells where the imbalance starts appearing.

That brings to mind (mine, at least) that the problem isn't, necessarily, with Forcecage. The problem is with Forcecage combined with Time Stop, Disjunction, and Dimensional Anchor.

Given that the spell requires a 1500gp material component, I'm satisfied with the balance of the spell. No SR? Sure - you're creating a cage of force (or a hollow cube of force) AROUND an individual, not ON the individual. No save? Sure. That's fair enough. There are multiple options to get out of it.

A Wizard that's willing to blow a 7th level spell (and 1500gp worth of non-reusable components) plus 3 9th level spells, to take out one melee type? Sounds like a wizard that's got problems with tactics.

3 9th level spells. That's the full complement of spells for a 19th level caster w/o accounting for bonus spells due to high casting stat (and what's the min stat needed for a bonus 9th level spell? 40? Seriously asking ... don't have my books handy right now.) What 19th level wizard is going to blow his full allotment of 9th level spells on one mook?

As for the "turnabout is fair play" idea, it's one that I use all the time. :) Makes my players VERY careful about giving me extra ideas.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-03, 01:38 PM
Star: a [Casting Stat] bonus of +X is enough to get you one bonus spell of level [X].

You can see the table here: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/theBasics.htm#abilitiesAndSpellcasters

martyboy74
2007-04-03, 01:44 PM
your post
You can just drop a Forcecage, but then people can teleport out. The Dimensional Anchor stops that, and the Time Stop is only so you can put something in there with them.

ken-do-nim
2007-04-03, 01:49 PM
... and then discover that that level 17-or-higher wizard can counter that tactic, as can any spellcaster. After all, we were talking about how non-spellcasters are the ones who are instantly rendered helpless by this trick.

I have another idea! Instead, as a DM, you could proactively fix the broken spell!

Just a thought. :smallsmile:

Actually I was referring to a more general issue, not just forcecage.

DM: Okay players, after what occurred last session I am going to nerf forcecage, ray of enfeeblement, and polymorph
Players: No! They're really balanced, see? Forcecage has that expensive material component, and the ray doesn't work on constructs, and polymorph doesn't let your equipment still work for you.

At this point, what I've found is that if you go ahead and do it anyway, your players will resent you. You need to change RAW by mutual agreement or you get animosity at the table.

So instead you show the players:

DM: Well, gee it's looking grim. The fighter is enfeebled and is no longer able to get through the golem's damage reduction. The party wizard is helplessly grappled by the enemy wizard's polymorphed familiar, and the paladin and rogue are doing time in the forcecage, choking to death on the cloudkill.
Players: This is ridiculous. The fighter should have a chance to resist the enfeeblement - his touch ac is really bad after all but his fortitude save is very high, familiars were never meant to be combat brute dire bears, the rogue has improved evasion and should have been able to jump out of the forcecage, and the paladin has spell resistance from his holy avenger and should have a chance to resist this force effect.
DM: Hmm... maybe you're right.

PS: Yes I know that it may not always turn out this way, sometimes the party will still triumph, but I'm just giving an example here.

Edit: I had a previous thread going about making rule changes in the middle of a campaign. I can dig it up if you'd like, but most people said they waited until a new campaign started before they made changes. That's an approach that doesn't work if you're in year 2 of a projected 6 year campaign.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-03, 01:53 PM
ken-do-nim: yes. Even better, if you do it before they abuse those spells. Because if it's really obvious that you're trying to teach them that lesson, it's less likely to work. They're more likely to argue that some other quality of the encounter was unfair, rather than those spells.

Corolinth
2007-04-03, 03:56 PM
This is a derail by this point in the thread, but I had to go hunting after the CoDzilla tangent. I'm reading wildshape, because oh god druids just sound like complete broken, overpowered badasses. That's when I notice this:


Any gear worn or carried by the druid melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional.

The form chosen must be that of an animal the druid is familiar with.

Alternate Form revealed these gems:


The creature loses the natural weapons, natural armor, and movement modes of its original form, as well as any extraordinary special attacks of its original form not derived from class levels (such as the barbarian’s rage class feature).

The creature gains the natural weapons, natural armor, movement modes, and extraordinary special attacks of its new form.

Except as described elsewhere, the creature retains all other game statistics of its original form, including (but not necessarily limited to) HD, hit points, skill ranks, feats, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses.

So that's fun. Now I'm looking at assorted dire animals and huge elementals on the SRD, and I'm noticing a prevailing theme. My AC blows. I have AC buffs as a druid, of course, but not really all that fantastically overpowering. I also have no functioning magical items. That hurts. A lot. I have to burn several spells just to compensate for that. I can't penetrate either alignment or special material based damage reduction. I'm more fighter than a fighter! Except that all of his magical items work, his attack bonus is probably still higher than mine even after my new feats and strength bonus, and most of these spells I used to make myself more fighter than fighter could've been cast on the fighter instead of me. I'm really making the most of myself as a druid.

Now, I could get around this magical item dilemma by going out and purchasing certain items that specifically function in wild shape. There are a few of those, if my DM will let me have them. I could also have my party hold all of my magic items and then put them back on me after I wild shape. Nothing in the rules says it won't work. Of course, nothing in the rules says my DM can't reach across the table and smack me in the mouth after telling him that's what we're planning to do, either. There are lines, and then there are LINES. We haven't really drawn any of them at the moment.

I'm sure that, on paper, it looks like the druid wins. I realize Tom is going to win when he fights Joe. I understand that. That's rather the point of this exercise. Tom wins. No matter what class or monster we make Joe, Tom wins. Mike is asleep, Chris didn't show up tonight, and Tom beats Joe. Frankly, Tom's looking right at Joe's character sheet, and he's looking up tonight's monster on the SRD so that he can optimally min/max his spell selection. He's also looking through the Monster Manuals 1, 2, 3, and 4, as well as the Fiend Folio, Monsters of Faerun, and several Eberron sourcebooks to find the best elemental or animal to turn into. This doesn't prove anything about druids, it just tells us that Tom is a jackass.

Now let's pretend for a moment that we're in the real world, where the DM jacked his copy of the MM3 while Tom was halfway through it, and beat Tom over the head with it. Tom can't pick his uber wild shape animal now, because his blood is staining the pages, and we can't read the animal's stats. Tom has to stick to something standard, like a dire tiger. Let's suppose we're fighting a monster from the MM4. Tom didn't get to read its stats before the DM beat him retarded, so he has to guess what spells he's going to need tonight. He's also going to have to take a wild guess as to what its AC is, and what it's attack options are.

Tom has an AC of 22 with barkskin. Can the mean nasty monster hit him? How reliably can it hit him? Is Tom going to get owned? (Smart money says "yes"). What's its AC? How well can Tom hit with his +20/+20/+14 attacks? Can he bypass damage reduction? If not, can he at least overpower it with his 2d4+8 and 2d6+4 damage attacks? Tom can still pull out some happy in the shape of his spells, but at that point, he's winning because of his druid spells and not his wild shape.

Tom could turn into an elemental, which would beef up his protective ability some. Depending on which elemental form he picks, he could have a beefy movement rate. Now he's got two attacks which may or may not hit harder. Attack bonus changes a little (goes down, actually). His AC improves some, and he's got some damage reduction. Not a lot, but some. Is it enough to prevent a beating?

These are questions that we can look up monsters on the SRD and answer. It sounds good on paper. We can pick and choose Tom's spells to suit the occaision, because those spells are probably on the druid list somewhere. Tom is winning. I understand that. If I pick any monster, from any book, someone is going to tell me exactly how Tom wins. Mighty convenient that Tom just happened to have those spells memorized (because any self-respecting druid always has those prepared, obviously), and the monster happens to conveniently fail all requisite saving throws. We have all of the numbers available to us, and we know what the weak saves are. Nevermind that every now and then the die happens to roll an 18 and blow that plan to hell. Tom of course makes all of his saving throws because he has good fortitude and will saves, and any reflex save he fails is conveniently counteracted with spells that he conveniently had memorized because any self-respecting druid always has it prepared.

Tom always wins, especially on paper. His low AC is never a problem, his average BAB never puts him at a disadvantage, and classes who suffer neither of those drawbacks never have an edge. On paper, we're never surprised. On paper, the bad guys always wear black hats so we can tell them apart. On paper, we can teleport away and rest for eight hours to regain any lost spells, and then nothing has changed when we return, so we can leap right back into the fray. On paper, our DM is a moron who lets us run amok.

At the table, we get hosed. The DM throws things at us that we never saw coming, and we turn around and stick some unforseen monkey wrench into his grand plans. We miss our rogue. We wish we had a paladin. We regret nobody rolling a monk. We think about how a bard would really be useful right about now. And yes, sometimes we bemoan how having a measly fighter would have made a battle play out entirely different. There are a lot of things that are rather tricky to calculate on paper. That's the thing about CoDzilla. He's a monster on paper, but that amounts to jack in an actual game setting.

On the subject of magical divination, none of those spells, regardless of who's spell list they're on, are catch-all spells for every situation. You can spend weeks and weeks studying your opponent to learn their weaknesses, and that's a smart use of player resources. The fact that you can then proceed to lay waste to them without raising a sweat isn't a game balance issue. You spent weeks using divination spells! How many spell slots did you expend before you even engaged? How much time did you use up that could have been spent doing something else?

That doesn't even get in to the possibility that your own divinations can be used against you. Ever contemplate the possibility that happening? That your opponent is feeding you false information? Oh hey, you're in the Big Bad's dungeon, right outside his door. You've been scrying and other fancy happy stuff for weeks. You even have Foresight cast just in case there's a nasty surprise. There is, of course, but you already know there's one waiting on the other side so you're going to blow off the warning. You burst into the room ready to dispense justice and... Holy crap! When did he summon a pit fiend?

I love players who think they're invincible because of magical divinations. Talk about overconfidence. You practically kill yourself. All I need to do is give you some rope, and you start tying the noose. A couple of red herrings, some false information, and you're racing into a dragon's lair with a full assortment of fire spells and protection from cold up, only to find out it's a red's lair. You could port out and rest for eight hours to change your spells, but that presents two problems. The first is that if you were being fed that kind of misinformation, the dragon knew you were coming and could've dimensional locked his lair. The second problem is that if he didn't know you were coming, he does now. The PCs aren't the only ones with plans, goals, and ambitions. This is why I said earlier that I weep for the gaming experiences that some of you have had, because it's clear to me in the MMO-style class balance discussion that's going on that a lot of you seem to think a D&D campaign is run by a computer AI. Class balance is a lot more complicated than contrived arena combat. It takes into account the nebulous realm of unforseen events that can and will pop up, things that you can not assign a numerical value to.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 04:01 PM
Yes, everything is balanced because the DM can make whatever houserule he wants.

Wait... thats not right.

NullAshton
2007-04-03, 04:06 PM
Okay, so casters can kill PC non-casters with a forcecage.

So? It's not PC characters vs. PC characters, and why can't the DM simply not USE forcecage against player characters? Besides, the wizard/sorcerer/cleric would probably have disintegrate for just this situation.

Just arguing against forcecage itself not being unbalanced, by using tactics made possible by forcecage. The other tactics like save-or-dies I'm not concerned about here, because it's not the topic.

Talya
2007-04-03, 04:07 PM
Yes, everything is balanced because the DM can make whatever houserule he wants.

Wait... thats not right.


Did you read what he posted? There's nothing about house-rules there. Very curious where you're getting house rules...that's all RAW.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 04:16 PM
The DM beating for looking through the MMs. The DM beating him for trying to wear items while wildshaped. The DM manipulating divination spells. The following statement shows that the poster has zero experience playing a CoD/Wizard to its full extent.


He's a monster on paper, but that amounts to jack in an actual game setting.

Talya
2007-04-03, 04:29 PM
The DM beating for looking through the MMs. The DM beating him for trying to wear items while wildshaped. The DM manipulating divination spells. The following statement shows that the poster has zero experience playing a CoD/Wizard to its full extent.

Those aren't house rules. Those are the DM excersizing the authority that the RAW gives him. You know players are highly discouraged from metagaming? Looking through the monster manual to find how best to kill what you are fighting is metagaming to the extreme. You know what your characters know. Your characters don't have the monster manuals.

As for putting on all your gear after you wildshape...well....most of it won't fit anyway, and those that do...that's a good way to lose your gear...it's not designed for animal bodies.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 04:50 PM
Those aren't house rules. Those are the DM excersizing the authority that the RAW gives him.
Quoting Rule 0 as a fix doesnt mean things are balanced. The fact that you have to Rule 0 something to fix it means that it isnt balanced.


You know players are highly discouraged from metagaming? Looking through the monster manual to find how best to kill what you are fighting is metagaming to the extreme. You know what your characters know. Your characters don't have the monster manuals.
Nope, they dont. They do have a massive Knowledge (Wilderness Lore) check tho, and many of the things I would want to Wildshape into are things that, I dunno... would have made it into legends? So I wouldve heard about them? Enough to... try and study them? Nah. That doesnt make sense at all. Knowledge skills are useless.


As for putting on all your gear after you wildshape...well....most of it won't fit anyway, and those that do...that's a good way to lose your gear...it's not designed for animal bodies.
Rings, Circlets, Amulets, Bracers, etc are explicitly designed for humanoid shaped bodies. Apes, among other animals, are humanoid shaped. Everything you could wear as a human, you can wear as an ape, as long as its sized correctly (Armor and Weapons only - Misc. magic items resize automatically).

Talya
2007-04-03, 05:06 PM
Quoting Rule 0 as a fix doesnt mean things are balanced. The fact that you have to Rule 0 something to fix it means that it isnt balanced.

I'm unfamiliar with "rule 0." I'm not referring to the DM prerogative to change whatever the heck he wants, however, if that's what "Rule 0" is.


Nope, they dont. They do have a massive Knowledge (Wilderness Lore) check tho, and many of the things I would want to Wildshape into are things that, I dunno... would have made it into legends? So I wouldve heard about them? Enough to... try and study them? Nah. That doesnt make sense at all. Knowledge skills are useless.

Assuming they put the points into it, and met the DC for the check. Regardless, familiarity would need to include a fair bit more than a mere knowledge they existed. The DM's going to make you try to find and study one before you can wildshape it.




Rings, Circlets, Amulets, Bracers, etc are explicitly designed for humanoid shaped bodies. Apes, among other animals, are humanoid shaped. Everything you could wear as a human, you can wear as an ape, as long as its sized correctly (Armor and Weapons only - Misc. magic items resize automatically).

1) Apes are not shaped like humans, at all. They're shaped more like bears with opposable thumbs. (and their front and rear limbs reversed.) It doesn't take a "house rule" to say they'd need barding, not humanoid armor. It takes a house rule to allow them to use humanoid equipment. They do NOT have the [humanoid] subtype.

2) Try doing that in the thick of combat.

Clementx
2007-04-03, 05:07 PM
That brings to mind (mine, at least) that the problem isn't, necessarily, with Forcecage. The problem is with Forcecage combined with Time Stop, Disjunction, and Dimensional Anchor.
Which I've said twice. The tactic only looks good on paper when Time Stop lets you eliminate a big chuck of magic items (and Disjunction is a horrible spell because if a DM ever used it on a player, no matter the situation, a fistfight is going to break out), bar extradimensional travel, and put a fire-and-forget area-effecting spell. So the big problem is Time Stop giving you, for one lvl9 spell slot, the effect of quickening any three and a half (on average) spell you can cast. That means for each spell, you have used what would have otherwise required a whole day's usage of a 170,000gp Greater Rod of Quickening, and 3 Epic feats spent on Multispell to actually get those Quickens off in one round.

Now, compare that to Greater Spell Matrix. It lets you spend its lvl9 spell slot 10 minutes per level ahead of time and store 3 lvl3 or lower spells to release together as a single swift action (or separately as separate actions- you have to decide ahead of time). You also lose 3d6 HP until you cast them. In no possible world are those both lvl9 spells.

Without Time Stop, Forcecage is not dangerous. It can be negated with one action (often swift) by numerous magic items noncasters carry, as well as by nearby spellcasters. Every spell you cast before to close those loopholes makes it harder to close the trap. Preparation and lucky guessing about your opponent helps. That is a fair challenge. A Fighter confronting a lvl20 wizard alone and without obvious magic items like tactical teleportation, ways to cancel stubborn magical barriers, etc., deserves to lose. No one deserves to lose because of Time Stop.

Personally, the only good thing about Time Stop is the inevitable situation where a wizard casts it against another caster, who immediately Celerity-Time Stops himself. A good DM would not miss the opportunity to have both Stops run at once, which leaves both casters looking at each other. Next thing anyone else knows, the wizards suddenly have black eyes and both say in unison, "I don't want to talk about it."

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 05:17 PM
I'm unfamiliar with "rule 0." I'm not referring to the DM prerogative to change whatever the heck he wants, however, if that's what "Rule 0" is.
It seems like you are.


Assuming they put the points into it, and met the DC for the check. Regardless, familiarity would need to include a fair bit more than a mere knowledge they existed. The DM's going to make you try to find and study one before you can wildshape it.
Define familiarity, per RAW.


1) Apes are not shaped like humans, at all. They're shaped more like bears with opposable thumbs. (and their front and rear limbs reversed.) It doesn't take a "house rule" to say they'd need barding, not humanoid armor. It takes a house rule to allow them to use humanoid equipment. They do NOT have the [humanoid] subtype.
Neither do demons, succibi, Night Hags, Nymphs, Aasimars, Tieflings, and many many other things. You dont have to have the humanoid subtype - if you did, the rules would specify that. As it is, the rules specify that
A humanoid-shaped body can be decked out in magic gear consisting of one item from each of the following groups, keyed to which place on the body the item is worn.
One headband, hat, helmet, or phylactery on the head
One pair of eye lenses or goggles on or over the eyes
One amulet, brooch, medallion, necklace, periapt, or scarab around the neck
One vest, vestment, or shirt on the torso
One robe or suit of armor on the body (over a vest, vestment, or shirt)
One belt around the waist (over a robe or suit of armor)
One cloak, cape, or mantle around the shoulders (over a robe or suit of armor)
One pair of bracers or bracelets on the arms or wrists
One glove, pair of gloves, or pair of gauntlets (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#gauntlet) on the hands
One ring on each hand (or two rings on one hand)
One pair of boots or shoes on the feetApes (cf http://www.gorillahub.com/dreamstime_gorilla%206.jpg) look more humainoid that ursoid (cf http://www.fresnochaffeezoo.com/images/polar-bear.gif) to me. But... thats just me and thousands of other people. If you can find a link saying that theyre more closely related shapewise than I think, great, I'll look into it.


2) Try doing that in the thick of combat.
Who needs to? With the duration on Wildshape, theres zero need.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 05:20 PM
Which I've said twice. The tactic only looks good on paper when Time Stop lets you eliminate a big chuck of magic items (and Disjunction is a horrible spell because if a DM ever used it on a player, no matter the situation, a fistfight is going to break out), bar extradimensional travel, and put a fire-and-forget area-effecting spell.
Actually, I've used Disjunction, and had it used on me multiple times. I dont have a black eye due to D&D yet, and neither have my DMs or players.

Poor assumption. You assume that since noone uses it, its okay to have it (the combo) exist.

greenknight
2007-04-03, 07:20 PM
Now I'm looking at assorted dire animals and huge elementals on the SRD, and I'm noticing a prevailing theme. My AC blows. I have AC buffs as a druid, of course, but not really all that fantastically overpowering.

You aren't looking in the right place, and magic items do work in some forms. Here's one 20th level Druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11764370&postcount=35) with an AC of 69 and 400 HPs. That's one pretty tough Druid.


I'm more fighter than a fighter! Except that all of his magical items work, his attack bonus is probably still higher than mine even after my new feats and strength bonus, and most of these spells I used to make myself more fighter than fighter could've been cast on the fighter instead of me. I'm really making the most of myself as a druid.

Except:

1) The Druid can use magical items while Wild Shaped (or Shapechanged)

2) That Druid's attack bonus is +35, which might not match a Fighter's but it comes pretty close

3) At high levels, it's a much better choice to have a Druid in the party than a Fighter. Take a typical 4 person party, with the other members being a Rogue, Cleric and Wizard. That last position can go to either a Fighter or a Druid (with Animal Companion). You could take the Fighter, but the Druid's Animal Companion is almost as powerful in melee and doesn't need to be Raised if it's killed, the Druid has Wild Shape to become very powerful (or Shapechange, at high levels), and the Druid can cast a whole host of useful spells. You're going to get a lot more bang for your buck with a Druid.


Of course, nothing in the rules says my DM can't reach across the table and smack me in the mouth after telling him that's what we're planning to do, either.

Course there are. That's assault and battery, and that can summon a force even more powerful than a DM - the Police!


He's also looking through the Monster Manuals 1, 2, 3, and 4, as well as the Fiend Folio, Monsters of Faerun, and several Eberron sourcebooks to find the best elemental or animal to turn into.

Or he just looks here (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?p=10552967#post10552967). That already has many of the best things you can do as a Druid spelled out, and even includes plenty of Core Only options.


so he has to guess what spells he's going to need tonight. He's also going to have to take a wild guess as to what its AC is, and what it's attack options are.

What's so hard about using a standard set of spells? Again, that link I provided lists quite a few spells which are useful in a very wide variety of situations. Why would any Druid need to tailor his or her spell list vs specific monsters?


Tom has an AC of 22 with barkskin. Can the mean nasty monster hit him? How reliably can it hit him? Is Tom going to get owned? (Smart money says "yes").

Probably one of the most effective things a Druid can do is multiclass to gain 1 Monk level (to get the Wisdom bonus to AC and Stunning Fist). That pretty much requires a LN alignment, but once the Monk level is done, the character can have any acceptable Druid alignment again. Failing that, a Monk's Belt does pretty much the same thing, and as a belt, it should fit on a wide variety of forms.


Mighty convenient that Tom just happened to have those spells memorized (because any self-respecting druid always has those prepared, obviously), and the monster happens to conveniently fail all requisite saving throws.

I know you're being sarcastic, but that's exactly how it works. There are a number of spells which any half-decent Druid should prepare, and most of them don't allow a save. For example, what's the save vs Greater Magic Fang? And while Animal Growth does allow a save, the affected creatures can and usually should voluntarily fail their saving throws.


On paper, we're never surprised.

On paper, the Druid is extremely difficult to surprise, thanks to high Wisdom and Spot/Listen as class skills.


On paper, we can teleport away and rest for eight hours to regain any lost spells, and then nothing has changed when we return, so we can leap right back into the fray.

At least one thing has changed - the characters have benefitted from a good night's rest and are fully prepared to face the challenges of the new day. Unlike the adventuring party which didn't teleport (or MMM, or Rope Trick, or use other methods to ensure a good night's sleep) and have been harrassed all night by attacks so that they can't re-prepare spells and still have many injured members. And whose location and abilities are now very well known to the foes they're fighting.


On paper, our DM is a moron who lets us run amok.

Hang on now, this entire thread was started because someone thought the DM isn't a moron who won't let his or her players run amok. Of course, the thread also assumes the DM won't just arbitrarily gimp the players and will instead change the rules as written to make things more balanced. If the DM really is a moron and just tells the player "that doesn't work that way because I say so", that's a different story.


On the subject of magical divination, none of those spells, regardless of who's spell list they're on, are catch-all spells for every situation.

That's true. Dead magic zones pretty much stop spells from overcoming a problem. Aside from that, there's usually a spell or magical effect somewhere that can make the situation much easier to deal with.


You could port out and rest for eight hours to change your spells, but that presents two problems. The first is that if you were being fed that kind of misinformation, the dragon knew you were coming and could've dimensional locked his lair.

Which assumes the Dragon has Dimensional Lock, which it might not since it casts spells as a Sorcerer and has (at best) a puny 3 8th level spells known. And there's a lot of very good spells on that list, especially if the Dragon can also access the Cleric list. And of course, that does assume that the PCs are going to teleport within a 20' radius of where the Lock was cast. It does mean that they can't teleport right beside where the Dragon is and get melee surprise attacks, I suppose, but they could still do it from a distance.


The second problem is that if he didn't know you were coming, he does now. The PCs aren't the only ones with plans, goals, and ambitions. This is why I said earlier that I weep for the gaming experiences that some of you have had, because it's clear to me in the MMO-style class balance discussion that's going on that a lot of you seem to think a D&D campaign is run by a computer AI. Class balance is a lot more complicated than contrived arena combat. It takes into account the nebulous realm of unforseen events that can and will pop up, things that you can not assign a numerical value to.

And the general solution to all that? Be as tough as you can and prepare for a wide variety of situations. But certain classes can do that better than others, and full spellcasters (especially Clerics, Druids and Wizards) can do it best of all.

Talya
2007-04-03, 08:09 PM
You aren't looking in the right place, and magic items do work in some forms. Here's one 20th level Druid (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=11764370&postcount=35) with an AC of 69 and 400 HPs. That's one pretty tough Druid.



Except:

1) The Druid can use magical items while Wild Shaped (or Shapechanged)

2) That Druid's attack bonus is +35, which might not match a Fighter's but it comes pretty close

3) At high levels, it's a much better choice to have a Druid in the party than a Fighter. Take a typical 4 person party, with the other members being a Rogue, Cleric and Wizard. That last position can go to either a Fighter or a Druid (with Animal Companion). You could take the Fighter, but the Druid's Animal Companion is almost as powerful in melee and doesn't need to be Raised if it's killed, the Druid has Wild Shape to become very powerful (or Shapechange, at high levels), and the Druid can cast a whole host of useful spells. You're going to get a lot more bang for your buck with a Druid.



Again, that's symptomatic of DM problems, not RAW problems. SRD items don't function when the druid shapeshifts and they meld. You might be able to find items in some other sourcebook that do, but that's not RAW...they're OPTIONAL supplements, and it's not a houserule for the DM to flat outright deny anything he feels like that isn't SRD. By default, those other things aren't in the game until the DM explicitly says yes.

greenknight
2007-04-03, 08:22 PM
SRD items don't function when the druid shapeshifts and they meld.

They do if the Druid is wearing them at the time of the shapeshift. However, the Druid's Wild Shape lasts for at least 5 hours (minimum Druid level 5), and probably much longer. And there's nothing in the rules which states that a Druid can't take off magical items before Wild Shaping, and then put them back on afterwards. And there's also nothing which states that the Druid can't wear items while Wild Shaped. In fact, this sentence seems to strongly suggest they can:

When the druid reverts to her true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on her body that they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items worn in the assumed form fall off and land at the druid's feet.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 08:30 PM
Again, that's symptomatic of DM problems, not RAW problems. SRD items don't function when the druid shapeshifts and they meld.
Wrong. Theres lots of FAQ quotes and other sources that say that youre wrong. I'd look them up, but at the moment, I'm too lazy. Perhaps you should seek them out.


You might be able to find items in some other sourcebook that do, but that's not RAW...they're OPTIONAL supplements, and it's not a houserule for the DM to flat outright deny anything he feels like that isn't SRD. By default, those other things aren't in the game until the DM explicitly says yes.
Actually... it is RAW. Yes, it is also true that the DM doesnt have to allow them, but debating, say, how the rules work when an Ur-Priest level is taken is 100% RAW, regardless of the fact that the class isnt core.

Core RAW != RAW. State which point youre arguing. Oh, and a druid can wear items, Core RAW.

Marcotic
2007-04-03, 08:44 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20060523a

I believe this may be the FAQ thou art refering to.

Talya
2007-04-03, 10:33 PM
Yeah, that's pretty damning, Marcotic.

It's very clear that people who take off equipment before wildshaping and put it back on afterward (with help, I presume) are attempting to take advantage of an unintended loophole in the wording of game rules. That falls under the category of "metacheese," and anyone who tries to make an argument that they should be able to do it (and by the RAW, it can be argued either way), deserves it when the DM locks them in a cave with a hecatoncheires.

It's irritating that Wizards didn't come right out and approve or disapprove the practice, instead calling it "arguable," and leaving it up to DMs to decide.

Regardless, since it is left up to DMs to decide, by the RAW, then any DM who allows it is causing the imbalance themselves.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 10:38 PM
It's irritating that Wizards didn't come right out and approve or disapprove the practice, instead calling it "arguable," and leaving it up to DMs to decide.
The only time "arguably" shows up in that article, is when Skip talks about a ring fitting on an eagles talon, or a leopards claws. The practice isnt arguable, allowing a non-humanoid to have those slots is.

Talya
2007-04-03, 10:44 PM
Oh, and that's another job of the DM, btw...if anyone does anything "corny" to try to powergame a supercharacter, and the DM doesn't want to "houserule" it out, the DM can pit them against whatever they want. It's entirely appropriate for the DM to simply kill a character who's abusing perceived loopholes in the rules with crap like that by putting them up alone against something they have no hope of beating. It was not intended for wildshaped druids to be fully equipped. That's why their gear melds into them. Getting around that is cheese.

Rigeld2
2007-04-03, 10:48 PM
So... its balanced because the DM can plot-device the character out of existance?

If you have to turn to that, then no, it's not.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-03, 10:50 PM
It's also perfectly sensible for the druid to tie that Monk's Belt on after he turns into an ape. The rules say it's allowed. You have no idea whether it was intended that they be able to do that or not.

Your argument seems to have shifted from "it's not unbalanced" to "it's cheesy and the DM should prevent it". Which is, well, saying "it's unbalanced."

Talya
2007-04-03, 10:55 PM
It's a loophole. (And a questionable loophole at that. Gorilla's don't have a waist, per se. They are not bipedal, they are quadrapeds who walk on feet and knuckles) People taking advantage of holes in the rules does not make the rules imbalanced. Holes in the rules will always be there. Who cares? Its the DMs job to make sure people aren't asses with them. You don't even need to houserule it. Players know when they're crossing the line, if they aren't idiots. Either way, they deserve what they get when they cross it.

"I want to turn into an ape and weild this +5 Keen falchion of flaming burst."
"No you don't."
"Yes, I do."
"Trust me, you don't."
"I do it."
"Right. I warned you...."

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-03, 11:05 PM
Except it's NOT a loophole. It's The Rules. You might as well say using Dimension Lock + Forcecage is a loophole, or using Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion is a loophole.

3.0 had Wilding Clasps. 3.5 explicitly lets you put some items on after you wildshape. It's How It Works.

I mean, why is it that you get to decide what counts as a "real rule" and what's a loophole? You can wave away any balance issues that way.
"They deserve what they get" is also a horrible DMing style. You could, y'know, talk about it. Or disallow it.

greenknight
2007-04-04, 02:46 AM
It's a loophole. (And a questionable loophole at that. Gorilla's don't have a waist, per se. They are not bipedal, they are quadrapeds who walk on feet and knuckles)

It's not a loophole, it's well within the written rules (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20070206a) (see the section on Animal Companions and Magic Items). According to Skip:

Other than the exceptions noted here, all animals have locations for magic items similar to those noted for characters on page 214 of the Dungeon Master's Guide. For example, a quadruped uses its back feet for the "foot" location and its front feet for the "hand" location. The hind legs correspond to a humanoid's legs and the front legs correspond to a humanoid's arms.

In other words, a Gorilla does have a waist, per se, and for that matter so would most animals (or something roughly equivalent).

Edit: Here's another article (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20031125a) which says basically the same thing.

illathid
2007-04-04, 03:26 AM
Except it's NOT a loophole. It's The Rules. You might as well say using Dimension Lock + Forcecage is a loophole, or using Ray of Enfeeblement + Ray of Exhaustion is a loophole.

3.0 had Wilding Clasps. 3.5 explicitly lets you put some items on after you wildshape. It's How It Works.

I mean, why is it that you get to decide what counts as a "real rule" and what's a loophole? You can wave away any balance issues that way.
"They deserve what they get" is also a horrible DMing style. You could, y'know, talk about it. Or disallow it.

the Magic Item Compendium includes wilding clasps. For about the cost of a pair of Gauntlets of ogre power, you can make any worn item not meld during wildshape.

Talya
2007-04-04, 09:27 AM
In other words, a Gorilla does have a waist, per se, and for that matter so would most animals (or something roughly equivalent).



No, the gorilla has a waist-equivalent SLOT. It doesn't have a waist, and a human belt would not comfortably fit it. It's not a matter of "resizing," it's a matter of entirely different body design. Try to put boots on a dolphin. That's why there is barding.


Okay, let me explain it in real world terms:
We don't want or need laws for everything. In traffic law, there are actually only the very necessary rules. Most things you do on the road are perfectly legal. However, a lot of traffic charges don't have an exact definition, they are somewhat subjective. They are still LAW. Here in Ontario, Canada, traffic charges such as "unsafe turn," "careless driving," "following too closely" don't have objective, set definitions...they are up to the person issuing the ticket.

Does that mean, just because there's no direct rule against jumping the gun when the light turns green, squealing your tires, and turning left before oncoming traffic gets moving, that it's a legally allowed unsafe practice?

No, because the cops can still charge you for the very generic, undefined "unsafe turn" and the judge will enforce it. They could even make a case for "Careless driving," a very serious charge that can get your license suspended (without any clear objective definition of what it entails.) The law is flexible for a reason...it gives people the lattitude to make common sense decisions and not be concerned about every possible little legality that might make what they did illegal, while giving the police the ability to nail your ass if you fail to use common sense while making those decisions.

D&D is similar. There are lots of rules, but it's a very flexible system. You can do lots of stuff not specifically intended, because they don't want to limit you...the more limitations you put on an RPG, the less it feels like you're really in an RPG. (Try the frustrations of actually ROLEPLAYING in an MMO and you'll know what I mean.) They want you to be able to do anything you can conceive of...within common sense reason. That's why the DM is there...when people abuse that flexibility and make a character so powerful it makes other classes irrelevant, the DM's responsibility is to stop them.

Now, melee combat is very straightforward. There's not a whole lot you can do "outside the box." You're limited by both a set of rules, and real life physics, there's just not a giant variety of options. That's just how it has to be.

Magic, by its very nature, is limitless. Any effect you can conceive of is possible in some form or another. That's why it's magic...it doesn't need to follow any rules of physics. So magic spells can be more imbalancing than anything else, and should be. That's part of the raison d'etre for the DM...to watch for when players overstep the boundaries of balance and **** them up for it.

Just because the rules allow magic, if unrestrained, to become imbalanced, doesn't mean the rules suggest it should be allowed to be imbalanced. We don't want rules to restrain magic, because that restrains the game world and roleplaying. We only need a good DM.

Rigeld2
2007-04-04, 09:57 AM
No, the gorilla has a waist-equivalent SLOT. It doesn't have a waist, and a human belt would not comfortably fit it. It's not a matter of "resizing," it's a matter of entirely different body design. Try to put boots on a dolphin. That's why there is barding.
Wrong. Barding is armor. Boots are not armor. And Gorillas certainly do have a waist - look back at the picture I linked earlier. See the area where his hips stop? Thats the waist.


Okay, let me explain it in real world terms:
D&D != RL


D&D is similar. There are lots of rules, but it's a very flexible system.
Agreed.

You can do lots of stuff not specifically intended, because they don't want to limit you...the more limitations you put on an RPG, the less it feels like you're really in an RPG. (Try the frustrations of actually ROLEPLAYING in an MMO and you'll know what I mean.)
Been there, done that, and all I couldnt really do was have sex, something I'm not interested in doing in an RPG situation.

They want you to be able to do anything you can conceive of...within common sense reason.
Its against common sense for Apes to wear hats? For Apes to wear belts, rings or other clothing?

That's why the DM is there...when people abuse that flexibility and make a character so powerful it makes other classes irrelevant, the DM's responsibility is to stop them.
Actually, the DM is there to provide the story. And arguing that the DM should stop the perceived imbalance means that, guess what, things arent balanced to begin with.


Now, melee combat is very straightforward. There's not a whole lot you can do "outside the box." You're limited by both a set of rules, and real life physics, there's just not a giant variety of options. That's just how it has to be.
Really?I wasnt sure real life physics covered things like Up The Walls, Combat Reflexes plus Whirlwind Attack potentially giving >10 attacks per round (and when an attack is defined as multiple swings trying to get an opening, thats a lot) and other, both SRD and non SRD feats.


Magic, by its very nature, is limitless. Any effect you can conceive of is possible in some form or another. That's why it's magic...it doesn't need to follow any rules of physics. So magic spells can be more imbalancing than anything else, and should be. That's part of the raison d'etre for the DM...to watch for when players overstep the boundaries of balance and **** them up for it.
So.. some spells can be not balanced? Youve gone back on your earlier position?


Just because the rules allow magic, if unrestrained, to become imbalanced, doesn't mean the rules suggest it should be allowed to be imbalanced. We don't want rules to restrain magic, because that restrains the game world and roleplaying. We only need a good DM.
So with houserules and a DM that is willing to restrict the cheese, we can attain balance. Isnt that what I've been saying, and youve been arguing against?

Talya
2007-04-04, 10:13 AM
I'm saying houserules or outright changes to the RAW ("No polymorph! It's bad!" "Forcecage is unbalanced!") can put artificial limitations on the environment that are not necessary for game balance. All the DM needs to do is watch for players being abusive and either throw a wrench into their plans, or outright kill the character if they're being completely stupid. They want to use forcecage? Fine. Make sure ruby dust is hard to come by, or that they're in debt up to their eyeballs. There are lots of ways to balance that without resorting to limiting house rules.

I personally love the idea of just making a party get ambushed just as a druid ends their wildshape (or it expires)...and they're naked with all their gear on the ground. Gets even more fun if a thief lurks nearby waiting to take advantage of the distraction with all the nice gear on the ground.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-04, 10:22 AM
Umm, not to be rude, but that is so backwards. I mean, it's very easy to break polymorph or wildshape without doing anything overtly cheesy. So the DM is supposed to let the player do whatever, until it becomes too strong, and then invent reasons to suddenly nerf them? Much better to start out with some guidelines on what polymorph (for instance) can and cannot be used for. Because otherwise you WILL have arguments where the player thinks turning into a fleshraker dinosaur or whatever is perfectly reasonable, but he just trashed the DMs encounter so the DM wants to...as you say, **** him up for it.

Rigeld2
2007-04-04, 10:23 AM
I personally love the idea of just making a party get ambushed just as a druid ends their wildshape (or it expires)...and they're naked with all their gear on the ground. Gets even more fun if a thief lurks nearby waiting to take advantage of the distraction with all the nice gear on the ground.
Because we all know that being able to design an encounter to absolutely destroy one player makes that players actions 100% balanced.

Talya
2007-04-04, 10:30 AM
No, that's the point. Magic is, and should be, almost limitless by the rules. It's the DM's job to supply the balance. Too many rules and magic becomes rigid and inflexible and ceases to feel like magic, it just becomes melee combat on LSD.

Rigeld2
2007-04-04, 10:33 AM
But you are limiting it. "If you unbalance my campaign with any spell, ever, I reserve the right to smack you in the face." would sure as heck limit me... I'd have one less game to play at.

Morgan_Scott82
2007-04-04, 10:47 AM
Magic is melee combat on LSD. It follows the same rules conventions as any other part of the game as appropriate, saving throws, attack rolls, etc. In fact as I understand it (I admit I haven't had a chance to read this first hand so my understanding may be limited) the recent attempt to rectify the martial class in Tome of Batte, basically introduced combat manuevers, which from the limited amount I've heard are a lot like spells (in that they have fantastic effects but characters know a limited number of them and they are limited in uses per day).

Talya, if the methodology you're advocating works for you and your gaming group thats awsome. I know if I were to outright kill characters for abusing the rules in my gaming circle I'd quickly find myself with no one to play with. Much better in my circle would be to sit down with the player discuss my concerns hear their arguements and arrive at a compromise that gets at what the player wants to do while maintaining game balance, which implies guess what? House rules from the DM to balance the game, the same thing many people have been advocating throughout this thread. If both my players and I agree that certain spells have a high potential for abuse, why not attempt to solve the issues now rather than waiting until they become a problem later down the road?

Nowhere Girl
2007-04-04, 02:11 PM
Talya, if the methodology you're advocating works for you and your gaming group thats awsome. I know if I were to outright kill characters for abusing the rules in my gaming circle I'd quickly find myself with no one to play with. Much better in my circle would be to sit down with the player discuss my concerns hear their arguements and arrive at a compromise that gets at what the player wants to do while maintaining game balance, which implies guess what? House rules from the DM to balance the game, the same thing many people have been advocating throughout this thread. If both my players and I agree that certain spells have a high potential for abuse, why not attempt to solve the issues now rather than waiting until they become a problem later down the road?

Quoted for truth.

NullAshton
2007-04-04, 02:23 PM
There is the general rule of mutually assured destruction. Basically, if a player uses a certain tactic, it lets the DM use the same tactic. This is why people hardly ever use Mage's Disjunction, for example.

greenknight
2007-04-04, 06:06 PM
No, the gorilla has a waist-equivalent SLOT. It doesn't have a waist, and a human belt would not comfortably fit it. It's not a matter of "resizing," it's a matter of entirely different body design. Try to put boots on a dolphin. That's why there is barding.

Technically, barding is the term used for armor when it's applied to horses, however D&D generalizes it to apply to all animals. That said, armor is one of those things which does take body shape into account. Try to put horse barding on either the gorilla or the dolphin and it probably won't fit, even though it is barding. Rope is much more forgiving when it comes to body shape, you could tie it around a gorilla, and even a dolphin. You could even do it with a snake, although once that snake starts moving, the rope would almost certainly come off.


D&D is similar. There are lots of rules, but it's a very flexible system. You can do lots of stuff not specifically intended, because they don't want to limit you...the more limitations you put on an RPG, the less it feels like you're really in an RPG. (Try the frustrations of actually ROLEPLAYING in an MMO and you'll know what I mean.) They want you to be able to do anything you can conceive of...within common sense reason. That's why the DM is there...when people abuse that flexibility and make a character so powerful it makes other classes irrelevant, the DM's responsibility is to stop them.

I'm not entirely sure what the rules are in Canada, but I assume that they don't stop the driver from driving forward when the light is green and it is safe to do so. In fact, the law probably encourages that to happen (it might even be illegal to block traffic by not moving forward in that situation). And you're right - that is very similar to D&D. There are certain things you are prohibited from doing, and others which the rules say is perfectly ok.

For example, there are rules restricting the number of physical attacks can make (or spells a character can cast) each round, with specific exceptions listed (eg, Cleave, AoO, Whirlwind Attack, Quickened Spells). And there are other things which are explicitly permitted - a Druid can Wild Shape (after a certain level) into animals and elementals of a particular size and HD. Nearly all creatures can wear magical items, although there are limits for body shape and special powers (a creature with a flaming body probably wouldn't wear items that burn or melt). The DM can (and should) restrict that. But at the same time, the DM is told the following:

Size And Magic Items

When an article of magic clothing or jewelry is discovered, most of the time size shouldn’t be an issue. Many magic garments are made to be easily adjustable, or they adjust themselves magically to the wearer. Size should not keep characters of various kinds from using magic items.

There may be rare exceptions, especially with racial specific items.

And with regard to non-humanoid shapes, we have this advice:

Although it's easy to imagine an animal benefiting from magic equipment beyond a simple saddle and a suit of barding, fitting a mount's physiology to the list of item slots available to characters is not an easy task. Try the following variant list of item slots for quadruped animals (and other monsters when appropriate).

One skull cap or helm
One pair of lenses or goggles
One collar
One saddle blanket or vest
One saddle or jacket
One belt or strap worn in front of or over the haunches
One pectoral or harness worn over the chest or shoulders
One pair foreleg bracers
One pair of foreleg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts
Two rings -- creatures with toes wear rings on the toes and creatures with hooves wear "rings" just above fore hooves
One pair of hind leg shoes or mitts -- hoofed creatures wear shoes and creatures with paws wear mitts

So most creatures are assumed to have the same number of item slots as humanoids, and often wear the same items (the example quadruped wears a skull cap or helm, lenses or goggles, vest, jacket, belt, bracers, and rings - this is even for hooved creatures), in roughly the same place. And except where it is obviously unreasonable to allow a particular item to be worn (like your example of a dolphin wearing boots), the rules say it should be allowed.

Game balance is a different story. Is Forcecage balanced? If you're a full spellcaster or at least have the capability to cast several Greater Dispel Magics and teleport/astral travel/plane shift/etc, yes. Otherwise, no. If you look through the base classes, there are several which could easily be trapped by Forcecage with no real way out if it's combined with a Dimensional Anchor or Lock. These classes are Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger and Rogue. That's 6 of the 11 standard classes! If you look through the MM, there are plenty of monsters with space equal to or smaller than 20' square (the size of a barred forcecage), and no means to dispel magic and get away.


So magic spells can be more imbalancing than anything else, and should be.

No they shouldn't. There's absolutely no excuse for allowing over half the standard character classes to be sidelined from the game, which is what imbalanced spells like Forcecage do. Just because it's magic doesn't mean the other players whose characters can't use magic (or at least, not as well or easily) should be made to feel like bit players.


That's part of the raison d'etre for the DM...to watch for when players overstep the boundaries of balance and **** them up for it.

By RAW, where's the boundry on Forcecage? The player who uses it has done something which is perfectly legal from a rules perspective, and has just used the class given abilities (spellcasting) of the character intelligently to defeat a foe. It doesn't matter that the foe only had a snowflake's chance in hell of avoiding the technique, nor that this same technique can be used a very wide range of foes successfully.

So in this case, it's the DM's job to determine where game imbalances lie and fix them up. Which is also the purpose of this thread.


Just because the rules allow magic, if unrestrained, to become imbalanced, doesn't mean the rules suggest it should be allowed to be imbalanced.

Hang on, didn't you just say that magic should be more imbalancing than anything else a few sentences ago? And when the rules specificially allow a course of action which is imbalanced, doesn't that mean the rules suggest it should be allowed to be imbalanced? Even though it does have the potential to ruin the game for the players? Most DMs don't want that to happen, and therefore come up with house rules to fix those imbalances, despite what the rules say.


All the DM needs to do is watch for players being abusive and either throw a wrench into their plans, or outright kill the character if they're being completely stupid. They want to use forcecage? Fine. Make sure ruby dust is hard to come by, or that they're in debt up to their eyeballs.

So the DM should "prevent" the problem by making it practically impossible to cast the spell, or denying the PCs the amount of wealth they should expect at their level? All because the PCs are using their class given abilities intelligently and well within the guidelines of the rules (which certainly doesn't seem like "abuse" to me). To me, this is doing things the wrong way. If a game rule is the problem, fix the rule, don't take it out on the player who simply uses it the way it's written.


There is the general rule of mutually assured destruction.

Mutually Assured Destruction might work for Mage's Disjunction (or it might not, if the character has a good Will save), but it won't work for Forcecage. The only character type who can cast it without using a magical item is a high level Sorcerer or Wizard (or maybe Cleric, if someone makes it a Domain spell). These characters do have access to Greater Dispel magic and some way to escape, so they at least have a chance against the tactic.

And besides, the basic principle of Mutually Assured Destruction really is MAD. Two wrongs don't make a right, and two imbalances don't make balance. And you can't fix a problem by pretending it doesn't exist either. Sure, in all your games until now it might not have come up (maybe because you normally play at lower levels, or the players have simply not used that tactic), but it might at some point in the future. And since you've read this topic, you don't even have ignorance to use as an excuse if does happen.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-04, 06:28 PM
There's absolutely no excuse for allowing over half the standard character classes to be sidelined from the game, which is what imbalanced spells like Forcecage do. Just because it's magic doesn't mean the other players whose characters can't use magic (or at least, not as well or easily) should be made to feel like bit players.
...
By RAW, where's the boundry on Forcecage? The player who uses it has done something which is perfectly legal from a rules perspective, and has just used the class given abilities (spellcasting) of the character intelligently to defeat a foe. It doesn't matter that the foe only had a snowflake's chance in hell of avoiding the technique, nor that this same technique can be used a very wide range of foes successfully.
...
Didn't you just say that magic should be more imbalancing than anything else a few sentences ago? And when the rules specificially allow a course of action which is imbalanced, doesn't that mean the rules suggest it should be allowed to be imbalanced? Even though it does have the potential to ruin the game for the players? Most DMs don't want that to happen, and therefore come up with house rules to fix those imbalances, despite what the rules say.
...
So the DM should "prevent" the problem by making it practically impossible to cast the spell, or denying the PCs the amount of wealth they should expect at their level? All because the PCs are using their class given abilities intelligently and well within the guidelines of the rules (which certainly doesn't seem like "abuse" to me). To me, this is doing things the wrong way. If a game rule is the problem, fix the rule, don't take it out on the player who simply uses it the way it's written.yeah, the impression I get is that in this model, magic is meant to have limitless potential, far beyond what a mundane fighter could do...but when you try to use it to do powerful things, very bad things happen to you. Personally I would find it very frustrating to play in a game where I never new what was okay to do with spells, and what would earn the wrath of god.

The idea that players will always know what is okay, and what is cheese, is wrong. For instance the forcecage/cloudkill thing. Some DMs consider that broken. But it's just basic good magical tactics, like the old classic "fireball the web for extra damage" trick.

greenknight
2007-04-04, 06:46 PM
yeah, the impression I get is that in this model, magic is meant to have limitless potential, far beyond what a mundane fighter could do...but when you try to use it to do powerful things, very bad things happen to you.

Having bad things happen when you cast magic can be a great way to balance the system. I've seen it done that way in a few games and it really does make a player of a spellcaster think twice before resorting to magic. The thing is, if you want to do something like that, you need to discuss it with the players first because that's usually not how it's written in D&D. The consequences of casting Forcecage, for example, are that you lose the spell slot until you can re-prepare it, and 1,500gp worth of material components. That's not really all that harsh. On the other hand, Contact Other Plane can have very serious consequences for an Arcane spellcaster. Because that's how the spell is written, the player can't really complain when it happens, even though he or she probably won't like it.

SpiderBrigade
2007-04-04, 06:54 PM
Yah, and in that case you've created a houserule that limits that spell, or magic in general, and most importantly you told your players first.