The Party: play as a small, synergistic team. Currently running Dota.

[qazzquimby]

The Party


Level
Fort
Ref
Will
Special
Hero Levels
Ultimates
DCs


1st
2
2
2
How this all works
1/x/x/x
0
15


2nd
3
3
3

1/1/x/x
0
16


3rd
3
3
3

1/1/1/x
0
17


4th
4
4
4

1/1/1/1
1
18


5th
4
4
4

2/1/1/1
1
18


6th
5
5
5

2/2/1/1
1
19


7th
5
5
5

2/2/2/1
1
20


8th
6
6
6

2/2/2/2
1
21


9th
6
6
6

3/2/2/2
2
21


10th
7
7
7

3/3/2/2
2
22


11th
7
7
7

3/3/3/2
2
23


12th
8
8
8

3/3/3/3
2
24


13th
8
8
8

4/3/3/3
2
24


14th
9
9
9

4/4/3/3
3
25


15th
9
9
9

4/4/4/3
3
26


16th
10
10
10

4/4/4/4
3
27


17th
10
10
10

5/4/4/4
3
27


18th
11
11
11

5/5/4/4
3
28


19th
11
11
11

5/5/5/4
4
29


20th
12
12
12

5/5/5/5
4
30



Class Features:

How this all works (Ex): Rather than playing a single character with a class of 20 levels, The Party functions as 4 sub-characters with 'hero classes' of 5 levels, which are gradually advanced as reflected in the table above under Hero Levels. x represents the lack of a hero, so a 1st level Party would have only a single hero, while a 20th level party would have 4, 5th level heroes. It's important to note that these levels are abstracted, and hero level 5 has approximately 1/4 the power of an 18th level character, not a 5th level character.

After an extended rest, The Party can re-choose its heroes from all written hero classes, assign their levels as available from the 'hero level' column, and assign ability points, as explained below. The party can not contain multiple of the same hero. If any heroes fell, a new hero takes their place. Possibly a new hero functionally identical to the old one.

No one gets iterative attacks.

The Party has a number of ability points equal to its class level. Abilities are either standard or ultimate. Standard abilities cost 1 point each, while ultimates cost 2, and The Party can never have more ultimates than is listed on the class table. Most abilities cost Mp and requires time to recharge. A hero has a flat amount of Mp, and recovers all Mp after 5 minutes of rest. Recharge is given as a number of full rounds that must pass before the ability can be used again, counting at the ends of upcoming turns. For example, if an ability has recharge:2, you use the ability, on your next turn count 1, on the turn after count 2, and then it is usable again the round after that. If the recharge is 0, the ability can still be used only once per round, unless stated otherwise.

Members of the party can merge into a single body, though its unknown whether whether they are multiple entities combining, or a single entity split. To combine two heroes, add their remaining health into a new health total, with a maximum health of their combined max health. Attack damage is the sum of each hero's attack damage as well. AC, move speed and Bab are set to the least of all joined heroes. You still get no iterative attacks.

All saves use the DCs in the class table.

You are considered to have level+3 ranks in each of a heroes designated skills.

If multiple heroes would be hit by an area effect, the damage is split between them at the parties choice.
If a hero is given some sort of condition, that condition applies to all heroes in the party, with the exception of any elements that effect health or damage. For instance, stunning one hero would stun all heroes, but giving one hero regeneration would not benefit the others. When in doubt, imagine the heroes are a single entity. Stunning would entirely stop an entity, not part of it, and applying regeneration to each hero would give a total health regen much higher than intended.

You don't need stats. You don't need gold for anything right now. You don't need feats, unless I make some specifically for this class. Heroes have their attacks built in and cannot be disarmed or armed with bought equipment. If someone wants to help me make an item system, its beyond me right now.

Name
Range: Maximum distance from you your target can be, or the targeted area.
Use time: Action required to use
Cost: Mp required to use
Recharge: Number of full rounds that must pass before the ability can be used again.
Ability text.

Currently completed hero classes (just the first dota characters alphabetically):
Abaddon


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
8
+1
11
2


2nd
24
+3
13
6


3rd
40
+5
15
10


4th
56
+7
17
14


5th
72
+9
19
18


6Mp
Attack Range: Melee
Move speed: 30ft
Skills: Bluff


Mist Coil
Range: 25ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: None
A mysterious vapor from the Font of Avernus now infuses the breath of Abaddon, who releases it at will.
Deal 4/12/20/28/36 damage or restore 4/12/20/28/36 health to a target.
Take 2/6/10/14/18 damage.

Aphotic Shield
Range: 15ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/2/1/1Mp
Recharge: 1
The powers of the black mist rise to absorb attacks like the black mist absorbs light.
Target gains a damage absorbing shield for 2 rounds, or until it takes 4/12/20/28/36 damage. It then deals 4/12/20/28/36 to all enemies within 20ft.


Curse of Avernus
Passive
The curse that slows an enemy, speeds an ally.
After dealing damage with a melee attack, the target’s move speed is halved for one round. Any creature other than you that attacks the target during this round deals 1/3/5/7/9 extra damage.

Borrowed Time (Ultimate)
Range: Personal
Use Time: Immediate
Cost: Free
Recharge: 9
The most unnatural of all the gifts of the Font of Avernus, this power defies mortal understanding. What should hurt, instead heals; and what should kill gives strength anew.
Immediately dispel any temporary negative status conditions. For one round, any damage you would take is instead healed. Cannot be used in the middle of an initiated attack action (damage must be assigned before it triggers).


Alchemist


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
6
+1
11
2


2nd
18
+3
13
6


3rd
30
+5
15
10


4th
42
+7
17
14


5th
54
+9
19
18


6Mp
Move speed: 30ft
Skills: Craft (alchemy)
Attack Range: Melee


Acid Spray
Range: Cylinder with a 20ft radius centered within 30ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 3/3/3/2/2Mp
Recharge: 3
Using traditional Alchemy from the Darkbrew family, Razzil concocts an acid that dissolves even the toughest metals.
For 3 rounds, enemy creatures within the area take 2/6/10/14/18 acid damage per round and have their AC reduced by the same amount while they’re in the area.
Unstable Concoction
Range: 25ft
Use Time: Standard Action/Full Round Action
Cost: 2/2/1/1/1Mp
Recharge: 2
A silver lining to the failure of turning a mountain into gold, this volatile solution has destructive potential.
As a standard action, deal 2/6/10/14/18 acid damage to a target, and the target must make a fort save or lose swift/swift/swift/move/move.
As a full round action, deal 6/18/30/42/54 acid damage to a target, and the target must make a fort save or lose a move action/move action/move action/standard action/standard action.


Greevil's Greed
Passive
While it is not a mountain, Razzil has mastered the conversion of smaller compounds to line his pockets.
Whenever you find money, there is 10% more than normal.
Chemical Rage (Ultimate)
Range: Personal
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 6
The brew Razzil gave to the Ogre during their prison bust has become a useful potion in the midst of combat.
For 4 rounds, you gain 5/5/10/10/15ft movement speed, and 1/3/5/7/9 fast healing. When the duration ends, gain 0/1/1/2/2/3 Mp.



Ancient Apparition


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
4
+1
11
2


2nd
12
+4
14
6


3rd
20
+7
17
10


4th
28
+10
20
14


5th
36
+14
24
18


7Mp
Move speed: 30ft
Attack Range: 20ft
Skills: Knowledge (the planes), Knowledge (nature)


Cold Feet
Range: 35ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 3/3/2/2/1Mp
Recharge: 1/1/1/0/0
Kaldr's presence draws those around him into a frozen void, threatening to lock them in an icy prison for eternity.
Target creature takes 1/3/5/7/9 damage. If the target moves less than 30ft on its next turn, it must make a fort save or lose swift/move/move/standard/standard

Icy Vortex
Range: 10ft cylinder centered within 50ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/2/1/1Mp
Recharge: 0
Frozen, caustic winds are at the whim of Kaldr, chilling the field of battle.
For 3 rounds, creatures who are within or exit the area have their move speeds reduced by 5/5/10/10/15 and spell resistance reduced by 2/6/10/14/18


Chilling Touch
Range: 15ft cylinder centered within 25ft.
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/2/2/1Mp
Recharge: 8/7/6/5/4
The Ancient Apparition's eternal knowledge brings a frigid enchantment to his allies.
All allies within the area have their next 2/3/4/5/6 attacks enhanced. Each enhanced attack deals an extra 1/3/5/7/9 damage. All unused enhanced attacks are lost after 5 rounds.

Ice Blast (Ultimate)
Range: 25ft cylinder centered in a place you can see, within 1 mile, which is open to the sky.
Use Time: Full Round Action
Cost: 2Mp
Recharge: 6
Ice storms from ages past flow through Kaldr's frosty limbs, crashing into the world and turning its inhabitants into monuments to his eternal power.
Creatures in the area take 10/30/50/70/90
For 1/1/2/2/3 rounds, creatures who are in, or exit the affected area take 10 damage and cannot regain health by any means.



Anti-Mage


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
4
+2
12
2


2nd
12
+6
16
6


3rd
20
+10
20
10


4th
28
+14
24
14


5th
36
+18
28
18


5Mp
Move speed: 35ft
Attack Range: Melee
Skills: Acrobatics


Mana Break
Passive
A modified technique of the Turstarkuri monks' peaceful ways is to turn magical energies on their owner.
Every time you hit a target, you may channel 2/6/10/14/18 points of anti-magic into it. 5 points removes 1Mp, 1 point removes 1 power point, and (spell-level*4) points removes one spell, where 0 level spells cost 2 points.
When you channel anti-magic your attacks deal half damage, rounding down.

Blink
Range:30/35/40/45/50 ft
Use Time: Immediate Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 1/0/0/special/special
In his encounter with the Dead Gods, Anti-Mage learned the value of being elusive.
Teleport to target location. Can be used during an attack action to avoid taking damage. When the recharge is 'special', Blink can be used multiple times in the same round.


Spell Shield
Passive
Years of meditation and obsession with revenge have hardened Anti-Mage's skin against mystical opponents.
Teleport to target location. Can be used during an attack action to avoid taking damage.
Mana Void (Ultimate) (Ew Math)
Range: 20ft
Use Time: Standard
Cost: 2 Mp
Recharge: 10
Target takes damage based on how much magic it is missing. The target is considered to have an anti-magic score equal 5*missing MP+ missing power points + (4*spell level)*missing spells. The target takes damage equal to its anti-magic score *0.2/*0.3/*0.35/*0.4/*0.5
If you can’t be bothered to do all that counting and multiplying by fractions, just do 4/8/12/16/20 damage if its slightly drained, or 8/16/24/32/40 if it’s very drained.



Arc Warden


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
6
+1
11
2


2nd
18
+3
13
6


3rd
30
+6
16
10


4th
42
+9
19
14


5th
54
+12
22
18


5Mp
Move speed: 30ft
Attack Range: 20ft
Skills: Knowledge (the planes)


Flux
Range: 20/25/25/30/30 ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/2/1/1Mp
Recharge: 2
Engulfs an enemy unit with swirling volatile energy.
For 1 round, target enemy moves at half speed and target takes 2/6/10/14/18 damage.
No damage is done if the target is within 5ft of one of its allies. Once the target comes within 5ft of one of its allies, its remaining movement can be used at the normal rate.[/td]
Magnetic Field
Range: 10ft cylinder centered within 1 Mile. Line of effect is not needed.
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/1/1/1Mp
Recharge: 7
For 1 round, allies in the area automatically dodge the next physical attack targeting them, and deal 1/3/5/7/9 extra damage on their next attack. All effects are lost when the duration ends.




Range: Spark Wraith
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 0
You summon a Spark Wraith, which materializes at the beginning of your next turn. The Spark Wraith waits where it was summoned until an enemy comes within 15ft and then becomes an active creature, taking turns directly after the triggering enemy. Each turn, it moves up to 30ft towards the triggering enemy, and when adjacent, deals a single unavoidable melee attack for 6/18/30/42/54 damage. If there is a creature within 15ft of it when it is finished summoning at the beginning of your next turn, it takes its turn after you instead.

Tempest Double (Ultimate)
Range: Personal
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/1/1/0Mp
Recharge: 10
By vibrating at extreme speeds, Arc Warden is able to create a perfect electrical incarnation of himself.
You lose 1/4 your current health, rounding up. A double of yourself, sharing your current health and Mp appears adjacent to you. This double disappears after 3 rounds.




Axe


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
8
+1
11
2


2nd
24
+4
14
6


3rd
40
+7
17
10


4th
56
+10
20
14


5th
72
+13
23
18


5Mp
Move speed: 30ft
Attack Range: Melee
Skills: Intimidate


Berserker’s Call
Range: 10ft radius centered on you
Use Time: Move Action
Cost: 2/2/2/1/1Mp
Recharge: 2/1/1/1/0
Mogul Khan's warcry taunts opponents into engaging in an unconquerable battle with the Axe.
Until your next turn, all enemies within the area must make a will save to perform any action but attack you. You gain damage resistance 1/3/5/7/9 during this period.


Battle Hunger
Range: 25 ft
Use Time: Full Round Action
Cost: 2/2/1/1/1Mp
Recharge: 2/2/1/1/0
Ordinary heroes cannot withstand Mogul Khan's rage for battle, such that it injures them until it is satisfied.
For the next 1/2/2/3/3 rounds, you gain 5ft move speed, and target loses 5ft of move speed and takes 4/12/20/28/36 damage per round. This duration stops immediately if the target kills something with at least 2 HD. The target knows this condition.



Counter Helix
Passive
Axe is the only reinforcements this army needs.
When attacked by a living creature, roll a d20. On a 17, 18, 19 or 20, you deal 4/12/20/28/36 damage to every enemy within 10ft.

Culling Blade (Ultimate)
Range: Melee
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 10 (or 0, see text)
Mogul Khan is the embodiment of battle and fury, launching into a gruesome fatality against those who dare engage the Axe in combat.
The turn before using this, you must declare that you will use it next turn, along with your intended target. You must follow through with this plan as best you can.
Deals 6/18/30/42/54 damage on a successful attack. If this deals damage to a creature with less than 8/24/40/56/72 health, the creature instantly dies, and you and all allies within 30ft gain 10ft move speed and +1/3/5/7/9 damage on all attacks for the next round. If this attack kills a creature with at least half your HD, recharge is set to 0.




Bane


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
6
+1
11
2


2nd
18
+4
14
6


3rd
30
+7
17
10


4th
42
+10
20
14


5th
54
+13
23
18


6Mp
Move speed: 35ft
Attack Range: 15
Skills: Sense Motive


Enfeeble
Range: 35ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/1/1/1Mp
Recharge: 1
Even the mightiest of warriors crumble before the terror of Atropos.
For three rounds, target deals 1/3/5/7/9 less damage on all attacks.

Brain Sap
Range: 20 ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2Mp
Recharge: 1
Atropos finds no greater pleasure than to harvest the fear he creates.
Heal and deal 4/12/20/28/36 damage.



Nightmare
Range: 15 ft
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 3/3/3/2/2Mp
Recharge: 2/2/1/1/1
A stolen prowess from the goddess Nyctasha is to put his prey into forever sleep.
Target must pass a will save or fall asleep and be unable to take actions. During this time, if it takes any damage, it awakes. If it was dealt damage by a creature that can sleep, the attacker is treated as if they were targeted by Brain Sap (no save). At the beginning of their next turn, if they were not woken up, the target takes 5/15/25/35/45 damage.

Fiend's Grip (Ultimate)
Range: 20ft
Use Time: Full Round Action
Cost: 4 Mp
Recharge: 10
Victims of Atropos are frequently torn apart by vivid conjurations of their own nightmares.
Target must pass a will save or be unable to act for the next round. At the beginning of the turn in which they can act, they immediately take 15/45/75/105/135 damage. If you are damaged before some effects are triggered, the future effects are cancelled.





Non Dota Heroes
Raptor


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
6
+2
12
2


2nd
18
+6
16
6


3rd
30
+10
20
10


4th
42
+14
24
14


5th
54
+18
28
18


5Mp
Move speed: 35ft
Attack Range: Melee
Skills: Intimidate


Growing Rage
Passive
The more blood is spilled, the faster he seems to move.
Gain 1 attack damage for every time you've damaged an enemy in the past with an attack. Resets after 5 minutes.

Beckon
Range: 25 ft
Use Time: Move Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 1/1/0/0/0
None can flee the Raptor. They are always where he wants them.
Target is pulled adjacent to you. This does not provoke AoO for them.



Shield Shatter
Range: Melee
Use Time: Standard Action
Cost: 2/2/2/1/1Mp
Recharge: 0
The things they thought would protect them fall useless to the ground.
Deal 6/18/30/42/54 damage to the target, and if you hit, deal the same amount to an item granting them an AC bonus.

Blood Frenzy (Ultimate)
Range: Personal
Use Time: Swift
Cost: 3 Mp
Recharge: 10
Few can match the passion, the unrestrained rush that the Raptor feels.
For the next 5 rounds, gain 10ft move speed, immunity to AoOs, and you may make two attacks with a standard action (both at full BaB), each dealing 2/5/8/11/14.




Trapper


Level
hp
BaB
AC
Damage


1st
4
+1
11
2


2nd
12
+3
13
6


3rd
20
+5
15
10


4th
28
+7
17
14


5th
36
+9
19
18


10Mp
Move speed: 30ft
Attack Range: 25ft
Skills: Survival, Disable Device


Lay Trap
Range: 10 ft
Use Time: Move Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: Special
A tremendous bang, and they wish they hadn't stepped there.
The trapper may place either a mine, crossbow or snare in a space within range. Any number of these traps can be triggered with an immediate or move action.
A mine, when triggered, deals 8/24/40/56/72 damage to everything within its space.
A crossbow is given a set direction in which it will fire, and fires in that direction as a medium crossbow when triggered.
A snare, when triggered, causes all creatures on its space to be unable to leave before dealing 4/12/20/28/36 damage to the snare (0 AC and hardness), and take a -2 to all attack rolls.
You can use this ability up to 3/4/5/6/7 times in a single move action, with accumulating Mp costs. You can place any combination of traps.
You may spend 1Mp to gain another immediate action that must be used to trigger at least one trap.
All traps can be seen with a DC 15/19/23/27/31 Perception/Spot check.

Track
Range: 60 ft
Use Time: Swift Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 2
The Trapper can follow his prey effortlessly. Everything leaves some sort of mark.
Target's location is always known to you, and concealment is reduced two steps. You attack damage when the target is denied their dex bonus to ac, and all damage from your traps, deal an additional 2/6/10/14/18 damage to the target. This effect has no duration, but can only effect 1/2/3/4/5 creatures at a time. If you already are tracking the maximum number of creatures, you must dismiss the effects for one of them.



Tripwire
Range: Two points within 25ft
Use Time: Move Action
Cost: 1Mp
Recharge: 1/0/0/special/special
Too often an overconfident warrior has found himself at the Hunter's feet.
Mark a line between the two target points. If an enemy crosses this line, they must make a reflex save or fall prone.
The wires can be seen with a DC 15/19/23/27/31 Perception/Spot check. If a creature knows the location of a wire, they may treat the space as difficult terrain to avoid the effect. This ability has no duration, but you can only have 1/1/2/2/3 wires active at a time. If you already have the maximum number of wires, you must dismiss one of them. When the recharge is 'special', you can use the ability multiple times in the same turn.

Hunter's Call (Ultimate)
Range: 30/60/90/120/150 ft
Use Time: Full round action
Cost: 5 Mp
Recharge: 10
The world is prey to the leader of the hunt.
For the next minute, you and all allies have the benefits of track on all creatures within range. Creatures you are already tracking have the bonus damage from tracking increased to 6/18/30/42/54 for the duration.

[Almarck]

You don't need stats. You don't need gold for anything right now. Heroes have their attacks built in and cannot be disarmed or armed with bought equipment. If someone wants to help me make an item system, its beyond me right now.

Well, the problem with designing an entire "class" around a "party" of DoTA themed characters is that invites all sorts of mechanical weirdness. No race, "class" is hard to define. "items" come by a default instead of loot.

Let's not even factor in things like RPing! Or how to explain how two characters of the same name, theme, and statistics can exist in the same area.



I'm not going to tell you to stop making a class built around a MOBA's characters (I think it's awesome, despite the fact I don't play MOBAs, because it means to me you really have this idea you want to push and that's always worthwhile.). But man, this does throw a ton of the assumptions of game right out of the window, don't it?


None of that is helpful to through. So, what I was thinking is, what if there was a 5th character, a conduit that acts as the face, the one controlling all of the others? Now, I realize that this is probably because I played LoL for all of an hour once, but I think it would make things, at least on some level easier to bear running this kind of "party" in a traditonal 3.any game.

The person is the face, the one the others protect, ect. For game balance and to preserve the action economy, have this guy be the one to spend actions to control the "party". Let him be the one you equip and have his equipment's effects translate onto the others. (So +5 sword on him means +5 weapons on everyone else). Derrive DCs from his statistics. Ect.

Granted, I admit that this might be also detract a little from the point of playing the "party", I do feel that if handled properly might things easier to cope with and explain.

Also, there's little out of combat utility it seems, at least without some clever thinking. A face can alleviate that. Also, I feel that the current set up of how the heroes act (each has their own BAB attacks, most of which deal low damage), kinda doesn't work. It adds more rolling and memorizing if you want everyone to act at once.

My current gripe with this is that the way the Party is step up, it means one player is going to spend more actions (and time) than any one other player every turn.

[qazzquimby]

Thanks for the very toughtful and surprisingly positive response. I recivied a similar comment about the face idea, though the suggestion was for power-ranger style joining together. Being an amalgamation of people and sending off parts of yourself sounds very cool to me, and alleviates a lot of the rp problems. About the action economy and slowdown, damages are mostly balanced so that the total of all heroe's damage er round is roughly equal to a normal character's damage per round. Slowdown shouldn't occur too much since there is no rolling, just subtraction of health, but a few abilities could be a problem. It would require a proficient player, probably. One issue right now is nuking abilities turn one and then fleeing, or just doing too much burst damage because of the split actions. I don't know how to solve that right now.

[Almarck]

Still have to roll for attack rolls more than most other players outside of TWF builds and the like. Hm, either way, have you considered having everyone run on the same action counters?

It'd remove most of the nuking problems. IF you did the following:

The whole party instead of having Move and Standard actions for each character, how about the party as a whole has 2-3 "AP" which may be used to "buy" actions to characters in the following fashion.

Spend 1 AP:
-All characters move up to their speed as if they taken a move action.
-1 Character uses an ability or autoattacks, but the same chaaracter can't use up 2 actions for an autoattack or ability.

Spend 2 AP.
-All characters make an autoattack.

If haste is up, get 1 extra AP.



Granted, I can see this system probably seem a little limiting, but it does mean that your turn can be broken down into something more manageable without giving you 4 standard and 4 move actions.

For balancing time and rolls, maybe it'd be just simpler to replace lots of smaller attacks with a few really big ones? This way, you can explain why say guy with a sword does more damage in a single strike than a guy who is mostly healing. The current BAB numbers don't seem to make sense since they forgo damage and attack bonuses and the numbers don't seem all that impressive when you get down to it given that you roll so many dice for auto damaging. The auto attacking does not seem to factor in DR and the miraiad of ways characters get to circumvent them.

So, I think the simplest thing to do is just let each member of the party have their own BAB's that while arbitraily high, do not allow iterative (in most cases), then increase the damage resulting in the current damage tables. Same results most of the time, maybe adjust numbers a little. This bypasses the DR issues most of the time, and speeds up the game a little more. I think the preset damage is a good idea though. Makes things less random and easier to plan out.

Also, you planning on adding touch and flat footed ACs? Also, Saves for each hero. It's not import right now, but well, it's gonna be eventually. There's also the issue of attributes, especially when poisons, diseases, and other factors are considered. I'm guessing you got most of this already planned out though. Hm, say, would having a "single" character solve this problem by having Saves based on his, well, stuff?


P.S., for some reason, when you brought up Power Rangers, I remembered this funny quest in the Neverwinter MMO where you quite literally faces against expies of the Might Morphing Power Rangers team. In context, you became a villian and when you beat them the first time, they turned into the "Mega-Hero".

[qazzquimby]

Thanks for all the really good comments and noticing a lot of things I missed (I somehow forgot attack rolls existed..?), plus I have both your current projects bookmarked and am pretty excited with Operator, so respect all around!

I was on a phone earlier, so I'll respond to things I missed first time around.

Face: Yes, great idea. I'm thinking of making their combined form the addition of their current health and damage, and take elements of all of them fluffwise, like a vestige binding gone wrong. Details have to be worked out, but it seems like a good plan.

Out of combat: Does not exist right now, because Dota isn't a very out of combat game. I don't actually care if material comes from dota (or Lol or wherever), dota just fit my needs at the time. I'll try adding utility to the existing abilities, but I don't have much room to work in for edits.

+5 swords for everyone: That equates +20 extra damage..? I've thought about item equips, since they should probably be a thing, but there are a few problems. Damage is based off eldritch blast, which doesn't usually scale with your purchases. Some items can only function for one character (+5 swords) while others could function for everyone (+5 armor) and some things are more grey I imagine.

Takes a lot of time: Since attack rolls do, in fact, exist, I'll have to agree with you. Your idea with combining interative attacks into one large attack (actually a very good idea) is awkwardly already half set up in the current numbers, since damage is scaling with eldritch blast. So those iterative attacks just shouldn't be there. What if there was a single attack roll for all heroes (Before or after attacks are initiated?)? 4 Attack rolls is a lot.

Nuking: I'll look at a few more ideas before accepting the AP I think, mostly because it seems really artificial, if clean in terms of mechanics. I might say only one ultimate per round, but by the time you're able to even have multiple ultimates, most classes are capable of doing a lot in a single round, and by the time you can use four at once, wizards have blown up the earth long ago.

Oh: Mmm. All number are currently wrong, but easily fixed. If you noticed health scales as +x/+2x/+2x/ect and everything else is just +x/+x/+x/+x, I should be using the first in all instances, because the levels are made to match levels 2, 6, 10, 14 and 18. That will make the damage numbers considerably higher.

DR: What if attacks from multiple heroes on a single target count as a single attack whenever it is a benefit, such as overcoming damage resistance?

Saves and adttributes: Are gross if they're different for all heroes. I can probably make three presets and then assign them depending on if the hero is strength, agility or intelligence based in dota, but I'll have to remake the tables.


I'll go peach your stuff now, thanks for your help :smallsmile:

[Almarck]

Mostly, I just think that when you factor in things like feats, item variance, ect, this class loses out on quite a bit. Eh, I guess those things will need to be ironed out on their own as soon as the concept has been fully developed.

My brain's kinda mush right now, so I'll just say that maybe you, me, or some other commentor might have a brilliant idea to solve and resolve our current woes. I'll admit, I didn't factor in Eldritch blast into account, mostly because I never got to use a warlock or similar class in my time of playing.

I can reasonably see that some champions, heroes, whatever have "Tag skills" basically virtual skill ranks equal to level (+3 in 3.5. Not needed if you also want to make a PF port) in areas that thematically suit them, for some skill monkeying. Such as say, Flight to all of the characters that have wings. And scale by class level, not the "HD" the character's possess.

I recommend an array of ability scores all characters share if only just to make calculations easier, something simple like 14, 13, 12, 11, 10, 8

Also, to save you time, I present to you the BAB's of various levels in order of 1/1 3/4 and 1/2 so you don't have to manually get it yourself.
2 |+2 |+1 | +1
6 |+6/+1 |+4 | +3
10 |+10/+5 |+7/+2 | +5
14 |+14/+9/+4 | +10/+5 | +7/+3
18 |+18/+13/+8/+3 | +13/+8/+3 | +9/+4



Level
Good
Bad


2nd
+3
+0


6th
+4
+1


10th
+7
+3


14th
+9
+4


18th
+11
+6





Edit. No idea why I put the BAB 's now that I reread your post. I did say my head was mush right now. Oh well, I guess it's handy for refencing later.

Edit2: Adding base saves, again to speed time. But I dunno, maybe this is more relevant since it means you wouldn't need to cross reference saves by flipping to somewhere else.

What are the formula's you're using to calculate HP and you want to use to calculate saves and other things? I'm... thinking I can put my Spreadsheet-Fu to good use.

[qazzquimby]

Thanks for the reference material :smallsmile: I just finished fixing numbers. Damage should be much less trivial now.

My formulas:
For damage, I assume 4 damage per level, rounding up from the 3.5 average because math, and 4 is much easier to work with. Average damages for the whole party should then be 2*4, 6*4, 10*4, 14*4 and 18*4, which I divide by 4 (see why I picked 4?) to give the damage of each normal attack. Since most abilities can do more, I expect power to ramp up considerably as the party gains levels. I can't tell yet if it will be broken.

Hp is slightly higher than 1/4 normal, because normally a fraction of a character doesn't die off and drop your damage output. All I did for hp was give them a d4, d6 or d8 hd, and leave out con bonuses. However, looking at it now, if you take the rather high d12 HD, average 12hp per two levels, divide by 4. Average progression should be 3/9/15/21/27, or exactly half of the current average. Two approximations that far apart are bad news.

I'll actually peach now, I've just been replacing numbers all this time.

[Almarck]

Hm, I'm thinking that for HP, we need to add more than linear increase at higher levels. Like a retroactive +1 HP for each, well, actual level each member is actually supposed to have. Mostly, because normal adventurers get items which retroactively increase statistics, The Attribute items and the like.

... so, how about a constant vow of poverty like effect for every member of the "party"? Reduce the stuff we don't need, build those bonuses straight into each character.

[qazzquimby]

These are good ideas. I still don't know which baseline for health is more fair though. Grod's christmas tree fix is a good thing to borrow from for any lootless character.

[Almarck]

Not sure about that, but... okay.

So I just had a revelation. We could just tie characters up into "Archetypes"

Essentially, their stats: HP, Saves, and BABs (And maybe even attributes and damage) are tied into one of a numbe archetypes.
Such as these.
Warriors Good HP, BAB, and Fort saves. Generally best at auto
Rogue. Average BAB, HP and good Ref. Generally got good abilities.
Caster. Poor BAB, HP, but good will. And generally high powered abilities.

And any other variation on these.

Simply calculate the stats, factor in arrays (Warriors High Strength and Con, Rogue Dex, Casters good casting stats) before hand.

We then save ourselves a lot of work by making the heroes more modular. If we want to deviate from the above, we say we have a deviation.

Other traits, like armor and mana would be character specific, too, I think.


Oh and PS. I just realized that a single fireball of the right caster level can more or less kill the party, like, really destroy it.

[qazzquimby]

Not sure of Grod's fix? Anything I should know?

I've been using something similar to archetypes, which are essentially three stats. Health/fort, bab/armor/reflex and Mp/will each have a score of 1, 2 or 3, where the total of scores is 6. So you can have various strengths and weaknesses, or be entirely balanced.

I'd thought of the fireball, but wasn't sure if it needed addressing. It requires they're all in range, and it should be something they're planning for. I could say they if multiple heroes are hit by an area of effect attack, damage is dealt once and split between them?

[Almarck]

Or just have it all dealt to one hero, no spill over. Let it be the one it's closest to. And if he dies, the others don't get hit. "Taking the blast." Granted, that might invite some sort of oddities.



And no, I am merely saying that I have no experience with Grod's fixes as they are mostly specific to 3.5. Druids for instance aren't nearly as gamebreaking because polymorph is divided into a few dozen different spells for each type of creature and have preset bonues instead of you taking the ability scores of say, an Elder dragon. Also, because the type of games I end up in are hardly normal. By this I mean, imagine if every PC has access to an artifact that grants the capabilities of a 20th level wizard able to cas 2 spells of every spell level, with the only caveat that you may only cast spells of a single school or set of schools. Another game features all of the PCs as gestalted dragons with d12 level dice/Full BAB/Good on every save because of a special monster class we all took. As you can imagine, I don't see how Grod's fixes would... apply to the fun insanity that I usually end up being involved in. Most Guides I end up finding are actually quite useless to me because they assume the characters would be using things like weapons and armor.

[qazzquimby]

Or just have it all dealt to one hero, no spill over. Let it be the one it's closest to. And if he dies, the others don't get hit. "Taking the blast." Granted, that might invite some sort of oddities.

Dump them all in lava, and they take turns heroically taking one for the team till they're all gone.

I like polymorph because its my best rebuttal to the silly yet common argument that core is more balanced than homebrew.

Your games sound pretty amazing. I'm often on the other end of the spectrum, putting my players against slightly more than they're ready to deal with, and keeping things scarce most of the time. It forces them to be creative, and that's usually the most fun. When I gestalted them they just burned the city down and lost interest.

[Almarck]

Baleful Polymorph and a great deal of other "save or die" spells are the result of a change in game design. It's a hold over from older editions, isn't it? Like how Banshees can insta kill characters around 50% of the time at the level they are meant to be fought in. Or the Disenchanter.

Actually, when you think about it, alot of the really bad, game breaking stuff in D&D might well be the result of old homebrew materials that is simply retained and republished all of the time due to tradition.

As for our games, welll:
Eh, well, no one knew about the rules to the Books because the GM miss communicated. The RP though was fraught with crazy arguements because of imbalances and quite alot of us were not ready to deal with things, especially with the pacing driving us all crazy. But it was kind of fun while it last.

I'm currently in that game with the dragons. It's not as OP as you think, actually. I mean, you are forced to use natural weapons all the time.

I think that Gesalt is okay if you make sure your players aren't going to ultra minmax their way. Or well, start the game as Gestalts and make sure they don't go on a killing spree because they can.

Oh well. Onto more relevant discussion. Eh, dumping them party into lava is not an AoE spell, so I doubt it works that way. Still, it gives a funny image of a Wizard using his dying teammates as stepping stones. Then casting mass Revive on them all to bring them back next to him.

I imagine that Baleful Polymorph is not all too effective against this kind of... class?

[qazzquimby]

I didn't even think of that. Single target abilities are much weaker, multiple target abilities are much stronger. I think.. ironically, to balance it, single target should hit all of them, and multitarget should hit one. That sounds too stupid to be true.

[Almarck]

Mechanical weirdness ahoy!

Hehe, well, working out this problem is actually kind of fun, so I'm still willing to work with you.

So, what I am thinking is to justify their cohesion, every member of the group is psychically connected. Connected so well that they all take the same Saves for everything. It sounds a little crazy, but hear me out.

It is because of this connection they are able to take Reflex saves and thus only have to worry about one guy when worrying about an AoE.
Conversely, because they are so deeply connected they are taken down by psychic attacks that target a single person.

To ensure mechanical cohesion (because if giving everyone individual Will saves is redunant if we're all treating them as a single entity), all of their Saves, regardless of who is in the party or not should be set on the Good track, independant of the member's "levels". So, +2/+2/+2 at level 1. +3/+3/+3 at level 2. And +12/+12/+12 at level 20.

[qazzquimby]

I added all the rules we discussed, including your saves, to the gross muddle that is the class feature.

Are we back on track to start adding heroes? They seem easy to homebrew, and some out of combat ability is needed.

[Almarck]

Well I know nothing on Dota. Like loterally. So I can't add hero's for you. What I could do is figure out what tag skills each hero could have and recommend an our of combat power if needed.

(Actually nevermind, about that, I just realized you did.)

[qazzquimby]

I know nearly nothing about Dota, I'm just stealing from their wiki. And the Dotaness is completely unnecessary, I was just using it for ideas.
I'm going to say for the purposes of ability drain and ability damage, each hero has 5(?) of each ability? It will come up rarely enough I don't want to give different attributes to different heroes.
Other than that I just need to rewrite the class feature to be nicer to read, and the content can be added again.

[Almarck]

10. So DMs don't need to say, apply negatives to BAB AC and the like.

I guess we add Teamwork feats/Group feats specific to the party?

All members of the group share Teamwork feats with each other for every purpose. Allow feat shuffling every day? Because letting the whole group have different feats per character is time consuming and headache conducing.

[qazzquimby]

Unfortunately the balance is too fragile to allow feats. Powerattack for example, they have 4x the Bab to convert. I'll write my own feats for it, because options are good. Teamwork feats should definitely be made.
What are some concepts for heroes you'd like to see?

[Almarck]

Well, I'm not going to recomend DotA stuff, so well, how about...

- Some based on the concept of attacking as many times as possible.
- Someone who relies on explosives, mines, traps.
- Someone who has spell reflect and other passiive abilities and no actives.

[qazzquimby]

~Double posted, sorry~

[Almarck]

Did you just double post?

[qazzquimby]

I guess so. My phone is prone to seizures. I like all those ideas a lot.

For rapid attacking:
Passive, gain 1 attack damage for every time you've damaged an enemy in the past with an attack. Resets after 5 minutes.
Active, cheap, pulls a target within 25 ft adacent to you as a move action.
Active, cheap, melee attack deals bonus damage and attempts to sunder armor.
Ultimate, medium, swift action, gain 10ft movespeed, immunity to AoOs and you can make two attacks per round, each dealing half damage.

For Trapping (Skills are survival and disable device):
Active, move, cheap, place a small mine, which you can set off as an immediate action.
Active, move, cheap, place a small crossbow, which you can set off as an immediate action.
Active, move, cheap, place a snare, which you can set off as an immediate action.
Ultimate, standard, medium, for the next 5 rounds your traps trigger automatically when there is an enemy in their range.

People usually have 1 immediate action per round right?


Passive:
Passive, Gain 10ft move speed and +3 AC against the first attack against you each round.
Passive, When an attack misses your AC by 5 or more you can immediately make an attack roll against the attacker, dealing damage equal to the missed attack's damage on hit.
Passive, When you make a full defense action you can choose to taunt 1/2/3/4/5 enemies. These enemies must spend their next turn attempting to attack you if possible.
Ultimate, Passive, You gain DR 2/6/10/14/18. Any damage absorbed is immediately dealt to the attacker.

I tried to make the abilities syngergize and it turned into a tank.
I don't actually know how spell reflection works.


Dragonling:
Passive, get some flight speed.
Active, cheap, do some simplified grappling, with snatch.
Active, frightful presence in a radius
ultimate, active, some really nice fire breath over a huge area, can damage allies.

[Almarck]

Spell reflection is a function of Spell resistance usually. Fail by a certain ammount and it rebounds.

Also, yes people have 1 swift or immediate action

[qazzquimby]

I added two of the new heroes, and I think most of the big problems are ironed out, so unless you want to help brew heroes or give more ideas, both things I encourage, you might be done here.

Also, imagine a whole party of parties.

[Almarck]

So what about touch and flat-footed acs?

[qazzquimby]

Does AC-1/2/3/4/5 for both of them sound right? It's certainly the easiest option.

[Almarck]

I'm not sure, since the way you got AC's set up right now does not factor in Dex bonuses (since dex is 10).


New ideas:
Gorilla. I want a super mutant gorrila hero. Because why not! Powers involve mind control, super strength and rock throw (and defense) as passive. (In case you didn't notice, Gorilla Grod)

And on a Small or Tiny companion. Hm, maybe a "psuedofamiliar" who acts as a sensory link to an attached ally?

We obviously need a dragon, preferable large size or even Huge (shapeshift up and down sizes should be an option to allow flexibility)

[qazzquimby]

I'm not sure, since the way you got AC's set up right now does not factor in Dex bonuses (since dex is 10).
I'm considering making them ignore stats entirely, which was why I was thinking they'd have 5 in each stat, since they'd only matter if they hit 0, and it would be a little more than 1/4 normal like hp. Right now they get no AC bonus from dex or armor, they just get it from leveling. Approximately half that bonus should be armor and the other from dex. 1/2/3/4/5 is considerably less than half, but it is very easy to remember, to save time at the table.

Game mechanics that are fine for a single character become tedious with four, so I'm trying to cut where it wouldn't be very destructive to the game. Just giving everyone good saves is an example.


New ideas:
Gorilla. I want a super mutant gorrila hero. Because why not! Powers involve mind control, super strength and rock throw (and defense) as passive. (In case you didn't notice, Gorilla Grod)
I'm afraid I'm not familiar with this Grod Gorilla. Everything makes sense but mind control to me.


And on a Small or Tiny companion. Hm, maybe a "psuedofamiliar" who acts as a sensory link to an attached ally?
To be useful I think it would have to seriously buff that ally, but that could make imbalances in heroes much grater, or have broken synergies. I kind of like broken synergies, but hopefully I don't depreciate other options.


We obviously need a dragon, preferable large size or even Huge (shapeshift up and down sizes should be an option to allow flexibility)
I'm a step ahead of you there :smalltongue: though I didn't think of the size changing yet. It has a lame ability, so I'll just slot that in.

[Almarck]

the thing is, we still need to like, account for things such as, what ability scores for things like drain or damage. Hm, what if everyone has an "Ability" statistic, which is modified from say enhancement effects and works as a total sum of their ability score pool. All Ability damage and bonuses go to this pool, and it influences everything, from saves to BAB, to damage.

Let's call this, for simplicity "Prowess"

That way, players have to only worry about 4 stats instead of 6.


Gorrila Grod is a comic book super villian from the DC Comics. He shows up in Justice League as a recurring villian.
He's a hyper intelligent gorrila from a secret civilization where gorrilas are living in a futuristic society. His key features are his above human strength, mind control powers, and for some reason he likes to turn people into Gorrilas and Apes. (how serious this is varies in medium.)

We also need a Ghost or incorporeal companion of some sort.

[qazzquimby]

the thing is, we still need to like, account for things such as, what ability scores for things like drain or damage.
You mean stat effects as a result of them, or have a value which can decrease? I've been addressing the latter and ignoring the former.


Hm, what if everyone has an "Ability" statistic, which is modified from say enhancement effects and works as a total sum of their ability score pool. All Ability damage and bonuses go to this pool, and it influences everything, from saves to BAB, to damage.

That very much simplifies the stat changes as a result of ability changes, but kind of messes up the character removal from stat reaching 0 element I was working on. Maybe after a certain surplus in prowess the character is considered one hero level higher (a huge difference, really).
I'm not sure of the need for dynamic stats though.

[Almarck]

We do need dynamic stats, or something to quanitfy it because then they become immune to things like poison, disease, energy drain, ability score damage, ability drain, or the like inadvertently due to said missing "Ability scores" to have them be affected. Something has to be done in regards to that and really, it's just another life bar with some benefits to keeping it above 10 points. +1 to hit, damage, skill checks isn't that much really, especially since ultis and abilities do better anyways. At best, it'd be +3 without factoring boosts to magic items.

Honestly, Prowess seems so much simpler than having to come up with another complex mechanic to replace "ability damage" without making it too easy (5 or 10 points is kinda, eh, not enough since lots of things do 1d6 or lots of 1d4 damage effects.)

They don't get to be treated as one level higher, hero wise, but the effect of "Prowess" makes them "seem" like it. At early levels at least. I think... Base Prowess is 12 and has to be upgraded with items.

[qazzquimby]

I don't have a clear opinion, but a few things to note.
By the 5 per stat, they don't have immunity to anything unless it never deals more than 5. It makes attribute damage much more all or nothing. As you say, lots of things do 1d4/1d6, which is pretty quickly lethal, but its lethal instead of niggling penalties. Plus everyone is pretty squishy.

In your prowess system, if 10 is the default, how about -1/3/5/7/9 attack, damage and AC at 5, and plus that amount at 15, 20 ect.?


I might leave out the gorilla's mind control, maybe replacing it with some easy bullrushing or similar. And rock throwing should work on people, but grapples rules are ew.

[Almarck]

It'd be good the later way. Let the player have something to work forward to, to upgrade themselves, instead of have it all put on a silver platter.

Well, the 5 rule is okay then, I guess.

[qazzquimby]

Is the five rule
In your prowess system, if 10 is the default, how about -1/3/5/7/9 attack, damage and AC at 5, and plus that amount at 15, 20 ect.??
That's just trying to simplify things, while noting that stats are much easier to raise or lower.

[Almarck]

Yeah, well, this is definately going to be an odd state for a character to be in.

[qazzquimby]

I don't follow. What will be an odd state, and what will be odd about it?

[Almarck]

The fact that no matter how we dice it. The party is a very unique mechanic that does not follow the same assumptions as everyone else.

No attributes and damage of 5 or higher autokills them. Actually maybe it should be reduced to 4. Very few tthings go up that high. The damage usually had to go thiugh through a fort save.

[qazzquimby]

I thought you were in favour of this system:

In your prowess system, if 10 is the default, how about -1/3/5/7/9 attack, damage and AC at 5, and plus that amount at 15, 20 ect.?
Possibly without my rounding at 5. Did you change your mind, or am I confused?

Also in the case when stats are used just as hp, they don't need to take 5 ability damage in a single hit. Unless the plan is to use a weak poison, most creatures ability damage more than once.

[Almarck]

I am in favor of unique mechanics. It's just that with every mechanic you invite weirdness and potential headaches.

I mean can you just imagine how will a group like this explain away "race"? How abut multiclassing?

In any case weirdness aside and some final things to be decided upon how to deal with ability scores and all that, I think the system is more or less complete.