Race. Class. Which comes first?

[Marlowe]

I've belatedly become aware, in the course of a few recent threads, that quite a number of those in the Playground like to start character creation with a build, or concept, or simply a class and then choose a race that compliments that.

Now from an engineering, deconstructive perspective, testing the system to see what can be done, this makes perfect sense. From a point of view of playing a character, it seems a little backwards to me. In fact, it strikes me as the sort of approach more appropriate to a mad scientist building a private army of boomers in his basement than constructing a character for a role-playing game. In the real world, we might have some say in our career path, but we don't have a say in where or in what shape we are born. Nobody gets to say: "I want to be a doctor, so I guess I'll be born an upper-middle-class kid in a first-world country".

When I look at D&D races, I tend to look at them on the basis of how such fun they might be to play, then work out what classes they might suit. Admittedly, a lot of the time I simply don't care too much, and wind up playing a Human, which works out fine for most things. But when I don't play a Human I play a race because I want to play that race, not because it helps with a build I already have in mind.

I'm not claiming this is any more a valid approach than any other, but I'm curious how many people seem to regard cherry-picking races to reinforce an existing concept as the correct approach, or even the default approach.

So Playgrounders, which do you start with?

[Fallenreality]

My main thing is that you have more options if you're selecting from builds first. Now I play more Pathfinder than 3.5, you can find a Tiefling (My favorite race) alternate for basically any class you want.

Because of this, it just makes more sense for me to pick a build first. The race doesn't matter too much for power level in the long run, so I want to pick something that I know I'll have fun with, and then try and come up with a reasonable explanation for how he got this way.

[Barstro]

Class first.

Class is what determines where I fit in the party and what I can do. Then I chose a race that is suitable for the environment. If that would conflict with the class, I'll go back to step one.

[SMWallace]

I do it the "concept then race" way because I'm really picky when it comes to what I play. Or maybe I'm not picky, but rather, bad at building a variety of interesting personalities. Pick your favorite. The thing is that I don't like to start with random backstory thoughts, spontaneously think out a journey, and then play at wherever the character ends up, because I'm not coming to the table for the pre-history, I'm coming to the table to play a character I want to play, and the biggest questions for me for if I'll want to play a character are: 1) will I have fun roleplaying them, in all their aspects from personality to profession to methodology, and 2) will I enjoy controlling them when it comes time to lay down some hurt on baddies. Mostly the first one, though the second is important too.

Though when I do pick a race, it's never for the mechanics; once I have the place I want the character to be, I try to pick the most logical and appropriate backstory rather than what's necessarily the most empowering one. But at the end of the day, all I can say is that I start preparing my character sheet with ideas for what I want to play when I get to the table, not thinking what it would be like as a baby dwakel growing up in the mountains, constantly fearing that somebody would notice the obscure quest the developers put back in before the art upgrade, praying each day that my cardboard cutout family could prevent their being rendered into a childish death animation before my tearing eyes-

Woah, I went off on one there. Forgive me; my brain has long since been devoured by Adventure Quest, I sometimes think I'm a video game character with a Hammer of 4th Wall Shattering as my default equipment.

But, yes, to summarize. It's hard for me to start at the bottom, because I don't want to do all the work getting to the top only to realize that my pickiness prevents the complex and detailed character, built up through genuine backstory experience, from being something I'd be interested in playing for the next several months.

[Coidzor]

If I'm going to want to be GOD, then I'm not going to pick a race that's too stupid to know not to eat yellow snow.

So I start with "What do I want to do while playing?" Which naturally leads to build and class.

I already know about the best races in the game for 90% of purposes and I already am the best race in the game 99% of the time, because MagnetoZarus Was Right. Maybe in rare cases I'll read through a sourcebook and a race that hadn't caught my eye before will catch my interest and I'll want to play as one, sure, but that's not my modus operandi.

And I'm certainly not going to make a habit out of making Orc or Ogre Wizards or Muckdweller Barbarians, that sort of thing just doesn't interest me outside of a comedic narrative.


I'm not claiming this is any more a valid approach than any other, but I'm curious how many people seem to regard cherry-picking races to reinforce an existing concept as the correct approach, or even the default approach.

So Playgrounders, which do you start with?

Who Are You? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUxnjMJm70)

What Do You Want? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUYpUMaEI88)

[Renen]

I go class 1st too, but since I mostly play humanoid races (or ones that look humanoid even if they are not) its rarely a problem.

Alot of times I envision more of WHAT the character is doing rather than who they are. So if I wanna play a cleric of pelor id mostly imagine a human or an elf. If I wanna play a whirling frenzy barbarian, I might think of an orc.

[Marlowe]

And I'm certainly not going to make a habit out of making Orc or Ogre Wizards or Muckdweller Barbarians, that sort of thing just doesn't interest me outside of a comedic narrative.

I believe I said something like; "I tend to go for race first, then look at classes they might suit". Not "I like to play deliberately silly race/class combinations just to troll the other players". Or "I play morons".:smallconfused:

[Coidzor]

I believe I said something like; "I tend to go for race first, then look at classes they might suit". Not "I like to play deliberately silly race/class combinations just to troll the other players". Or "I play morons".:smallconfused:

Good for you? :smallconfused: I'm reasonably certain that I didn't say you did, either.

I certainly see a potential risk of silliness if one picked a race out of a hat and was really married to a role as a player that wouldn't mesh with what race one had settled on and rather than adjusting one or the other one instead decided to try to mash an octagonal peg into a triangular hole, but not much of one, because the majority of people would realize they were being silly and either be readily dealt with if it's not a joke game or fit right in because that was the point of the joke game they were in.

My only critique of your character generation method is that for it to work, that means you either have absolutely no preference for what you'd be doing as a player, which is unusual because most players gravitate towards one area or another or at least have something they'd like to be doing in their next game, or you'd only be interested in a limited pool of races that are good at the kind of things you want to do so you get into a chicken-and-egg situation about why you're picking x races over y races or you're essentially rolling a die to decide what you'll be out of a limited set of classes based upon what of your limited set of races you have chosen this time.

[HolyCouncilMagi]

I do it in a sort of mixed order. See, I'm absolutely obsessed with full casters (especially arcane) and pretty much won't play anything else. But once I've established the word "caster" in my mind, I then pick my race and the most realistic background available to that race that would allow me to play a caster. Then I consider how that character's birth and early childhood would influence his first significant choices, then the consequences of those choices and their influence on his outlook, until he's an adult with a fairly set personality, and then I progress to the present day and play whatever odd thing my mind has churned out.

[Necroticplague]

To me, it seems backwards to select your race before deciding on a build. Admittingly, I play human a solid 95% of the time because you can't really go wrong there. The way I see it, you should build characters starting with what most effects how they play (for this is a game first and foremost, so making sure they play interestingly is of high import). Normally, race is of nominal importance to how the character plays out, given how most playable (i.e, there ECL isn't cripppling) races give bonuses that are either situational (dwarf), minor (elf), or able to apply to almost any build (human). Thus, the build should come first, because its what will effect how it plays out far more than the race. The only real time race comes first is when it has a large impact on build or changes how the character plays drastically (such as vampire or ghost).

[BWR]

I start with whatever seems most fun at the time.

If I choose race first it's because there is something (generally cultural) about the race that appeals and I want to play up that aspect. Class is chosen based on what fits the race and culture and my vision for the character, not the other way around.
If I choose class first, it's because I want to play that class and I choose whatever race makes the most sense for it in the setting, even if this is sub-optimal.

In settings I know well, culture and race generally come first more often than in settings I don't know well.

[Gwachitallemall]

Lately, in Eberron, it's been more of a mixed order of things. My concept of a dragonmarked character will come first, then the race, then the class. I'm pretty sure concept always comes first however, then you pick what is needed to fit that concept, on either end, race and class.

[JDL]

Bah. The old grognards will be here soon enough, shaking their canes and muttering about rolling their dice in order, how you had to have a minimum of 12 Constitution if you wanted to be a Dwarf, or that anyone with 5 or less in Charisma couldn't play any class other than Assassin.

[Marlowe]

I must say, it's a comfort to know that I needn't bother to exaggerate my opinions for rhetorical effect, since there are plenty of others willing to do it for me.:smallsmile:

[BWR]

Bah. The old grognards will be here soon enough, shaking their canes and muttering about rolling their dice in order, how you had to have a minimum of 12 Constitution if you wanted to be a Dwarf, or that anyone with 5 or less in Charisma couldn't play any class other than Assassin.

In all fairness, that was a fun way of doing things.

[Nettlekid]

Also jumping on the "class before race" bandwagon.

What I keep in mind when designing a character is that they don't exist in a vacuum. They're surrounded by other members of the same race who have different classes, or members of different races with the same class. When I'm playing the character I've created, I'm following the story of that character. So there might be a Wizard College where an Orc, a Dwarf, and a Gray Elf are all studying magic together, and the Orc flunks out and the Dwarf goes on to open a reasonably successful scroll shop in the city, but I want to follow the story of the Gray Elf Wizard whose natural intelligence and aptitude mean that HE'S the one who goes to kill the Lich.

So I do pick class/build first and then choose a race to suit it, but I remember than in backstory and such the character was obviously their race first and then their class, so it doesn't feel out-of-order in that sense.

EDIT: Although, like you said in the OP, there are occasions where I'll play a race because I want to try out that race and then build the class around it. Usually for a gimmick, like a Puss In Boots character where a Tibbit Rogue uses Confound the Big Folk to get Sneak Attacks, or a Muckdweller Totemist who took Stoneblessed and Goliath Barbarian levels to grow Large when in a Rage. But those are mainly because of gimmicky, quirky races. I don't think I've ever said "I feel like playing a Dwarf, now what would be a good class for a Dwarf?" Which is what I think you were asking in the OP?

[Chronos]

If you really want to get down to it, picking your race at all is sort of playing god.

The way I see it, there's sort of a universe of potential characters already floating around somewhere, and I'm choosing one of them to become. The way the person came to be need not be the way I choose them. My selection process is likely to start with something like, "I want to play a rogue", and then filtering the candidates for those that have an aptitude for being rogues. That set is likely to consist mostly of halflings, gnomes, and humans, and then from there I'll start thinking more about what kind of rogue I'd like to play.

[Tarlek Flamehai]

I either start with an RP concept or a picture I like and go from there. Basically find the fun first, then build the crunch around it.

Minimum stats for races and classes. I remember those days well. I even remember the eventual fix (optional) that first edition had....the fistful of dice method.

[Sian]

concept before class before race. First i figure out which concept i want (which might in itself carry the answer to the following items, if say my concept is Dwarven Beserker), and then i figure out what classes best fit the concept and why, and lastly i think about if the concept and class leads me towards preferring certain races above any other and selecting something from that.

[atemu1234]

I very rarely actually play a PC. Instead, I usually DM. This translates to me generally starting with an interesting class/race combo which I stat out as a thought exercise. I once made a half-minotaur half-giant barbarian, then proceeded to use his money to buy strength-boosting items.

The two aren't mutually exclusive; sometimes both are better.

[Milo v3]

Me and my players generally choose class before race because what we want to RP will determine what we want the character to do mechanically. "I want to wield a giant weapon." Okay, lets go through and see what can help you wield a giant weapon, oh, there is this archetype for barbarian, you can use that. Now that your character can now do what you wanted, pick a race.

[Sam K]

Short of some mechanical/PRC (dis)advantages, I don't think race really matters that much. Despite how horribly stereotyped most races are, your race doesn't determine your characters outlook or personality. Playing a dwarf doesn't mean your character has to be a greedy, drunken traditionalist with a fake scottish accent. At most, it means that if you are a greedy traditionalist, that would make you a well-adjusted member of dwarven society, whereas a greedy traditionalist elf might be considered an odd-ball in elven society.

To me, because class is an active choice, it tells far more about my character than race. If I'm playing a wizard, that char has to be of an academic bent because (short or re-fluffing the class completely) that's how you become a wizard. But being an elf or a dwarf or a half-ogre, half-elf, half-minotaur? Doesn't dictate my character at all, so it's not a very important choice to me short of how the racial traits may affect my abilities.

Also, human superiority all the way!

[atemu1234]

Hey, I do a decent Scottish accent.

[Jack_Simth]

...

It's clearly going to be a mix, even if you're going for 'realism'. Most people go for something they're good at for their career choice. When you've got a race that has natural advantages towards a certain profession, then there's going to be more people picking that. The next generation, there's going to be more instructors of that nature available among that race. So if Gray Elves make the best Wizards, there's going to be more Wizards among Gray Elves than other races. If Dwarves make the best Fighters, then there's going to be more Dwarven Fighters than of other races. If Whisper Gnomes make the best rogues, then there's going to be more Whisper Gnome Rogues than there are other races. And so on.

The player picks a role, and builds around that ... but it'll still usually line up with what makes sense, even when the race was picked to support the role. Plus, of course, if you want a mostly balanced party, you'll need to pick the role first anyway to be sure of getting a reasonable one of each expected role.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I agree with Sam K. Unless your race is a major part of your concept your class is going to be more important, both from a mechanics and RP perspective.

[Psyren]

Me and my players generally choose class before race because what we want to RP will determine what we want the character to do mechanically. "I want to wield a giant weapon." Okay, lets go through and see what can help you wield a giant weapon, oh, there is this archetype for barbarian, you can use that. Now that your character can now do what you wanted, pick a race.

^ That. It also informs my RP choices - namely, do I want a race/class combination that plays into or against type? For example, if I feel like playing cleric, do I want the Dwarfiest Dwarf to ever Dwarf, a youthful and nervous yet brilliant Cadderly-style Human, or a gaunt and unsettling Dhampir who deftly channels the forces of unlife? Or if I want to play Magus - do I run with an elven blademaster whose ancient traditions seamlessly meld spellcraft and swordplay? Do I run with a self-loathing Hobgoblin desperately trying to hide the true source of his martial prowess from his arcanophobic peers? Do I run a tortured Tiefling whose blade and blood subtly encourage him to slaughter?

By starting with what I feel like playing, I know I'll be invested, and then the race choice becomes another component of that build both mechanically and from a flavor standpoint.

[Snowbluff]

It depends for me. Sometimes I'll go with a race for a concept (usually if I am playing with a Drow), or I'll go for something more optimized. In PF, ALWAYS class first, because you pretty much always want a good FCB. In 3.5, I'm usually inclined to go Silverbrow Human for the feat and dragonblood.

[Wiggins]

I'm almost always some kind of Human; Silverbrow, Azurin, etc.

Unless it's a racial archetype (halflings for ranged sneak attack, gnomes for illusions, dragonborn orcs for being ridiculously physical)

We have a recurring villain who can "Agent Smith" all humans and human subspecies, simply so that the DM can make us all put our human characters into hiding and roll non-human for a while and save the world from him.

[LoyalPaladin]

I am definitely a class before race kind of guy. But I actually know plenty of people who are the exact opposite. I have a buddy who was going to die if he couldn't play a warforged, but then decided he wanted to be a wizard. Next thing we knew we had a warforged wizard.

[Togo]

I almost always go for a build first, make sure it works and is well balanced with the other characters. I check that it allows me to do stuff they can't do while not stomping on things they can do. I choose a race as part of that process, usually towards the end.

I can and do make build choices for role-playing reasons, but generally, at the start of the game, I don't have a very firm idea of what the character is going to be like. That only comes from interacting with the other players, which generally takes a few sessions.

I often change my race for reasons of setting - it makes comparatively little mechanical difference and being a part of the background of the game is more optimised than massaging your character's abilities.

[The Viscount]

When I'm creating builds for Iron Chef I do concept, then classes that fits the concept, then race that pairs nicely. Occasionally I will pick race earlier if it's central to concept.

In characters I actually play, I've found that I usually choose class and race simultaneously and independently. It's usually just a matter of "ooh I've been wanting to play this class" and "ooh I've been wanting to play this race" and as long as the two don't interfere with each other I often just pair the two together.

[Zakerst]

For me, it has to be concept -> build that works, sometimes the concept demands a race others a class, in extreme cases it needs both, in some stranger cases it requires neither, in these cases I tend to look at classes that best enhance the concept first as those tend to have a greater impact than race.

That said and as others have said before me, neither is "wrong," I tend to think in a mechanical fashion most of the time so that's where my tendencies lay, but when the spirit moves me I am moved so to speak.

And then I am reminded that I am currently playing a Rakshasccubus :smalltongue:, in this case both race and class were identical and so occurred simultaneously and the concept grew and evolved from there.

[mashlagoo1982]

Role > Concept > Class > Everything else

I am not very picky in what I play. I enjoy it all.

I tend to choose my role in a party based off what other players have selected.
Usually that ends up being buffer/healer.

So, I take that role and think up a concept.
How does my character accomplish their role (divine power, skills, etc)?

From there, I decide on a class and then everything else to support the role.

[Telonius]

I tend to go with "party role first." Meaning, take a look at who's chosen what already, and what the party needs for roles in and out of combat. Maybe the best way to explain the process would be to give an example of a situation, and what I'd decide.

So let's say I find a group with a (generally Good-aligned) Gnome Samurai, a Warforged Sorcerer, and a Dwarf Rogue. They don't have any divine magic, so whatever it is, I'm building a divine caster.

Then I'd look at the campaign (or check with the DM) to see what sorts of creatures might reasonably be encountered. I'd want to know the race first, since the character's cultural background would be determined by that. They're starting in a kind of wild area, with lots of raids? Maybe something more feral like a Half-Orc or a Gnoll or a Hobgoblin or a Kobold. Gnome in the party, so Kobold's probably out (unless I already know that the Gnome's player would be up for intra-party conflict). Gnoll - yuck, racial hitdice on a caster. Half-Orc or Hobgoblin then. Been forever since I've played a goblinoid, so Hobgoblin it is.

Personality. Hobgoblins are militaristic, very physical. This guy cares about a deity, uses divine magic. Is it to supplement his physical prowess, or does he feel that buffs are a sign of weakness? Seems more like the former. He wants to gain an advantage where he can. He's open to adventuring, either as a personal thing or as an assignment from a superior? No, more of a personal thing. He's on the road to self-perfection. Would that be conducive to a hierarchy? Maybe, maybe not. I don't see him as the zealot type. Alignment? Not Lawful. (Unusual for a Hobgoblin - maybe that could go in the backstory). I don't see him as going out of his way to help people, so not Good. Not above stepping on people for personal gain, but he doesn't go out of his way to do it. So, True Neutral or Chaotic Neutral? Sounds about right to start.

So, now that I've got the race and personality down, on to class. We have what's probably *ahem* a low-op party here, so I won't be busting out with a CoDzilla. Cleric (played toned-down) would fit the party role, but not really the personality. So Favored Soul might be an option. Also fits with his respect for (rather than devotion to) a deity. Or what's that other thing, Shugenja? Could fit in, particularly with the Samurai. Can't remember if it has an alignment requirement though.

So, at that point, I'd be off looking up a Shugenja and how it works.

[Honest Tiefling]

I go with party role first, both for selfish and less selfish reasons. First, I need a character I will enjoy in combat if there is combat. I've fallen asleep playing characters, so I need to avoid that. I also don't want to step on any toes, and have my character mess with the party. Then I need a class that will mesh with the world with that particular role. If elves are all nomadic rangers that spend all day hunting, maybe I shouldn't be making an elven wizard.

[Galen]

Now from an engineering, deconstructive perspective, testing the system to see what can be done, this makes perfect sense. From a point of view of playing a character, it seems a little backwards to me.While you do make some good points, I'll go ahead and say that character-building can be completely decoupled from character-playing. You can have your cake and eat it too, so to speak: make a character with an eye toward a 'build' rather than personality, then roleplay it as a person, possibly developing its personality during play.

[ace rooster]

I don't think I do either consistantly. Sometimes I find a class I really want to play, and build around that. Other times I find a race I really want to play, and then pick classes accordingly. Occasionally I have a concept, and then pick both to make it work. When a game rolls around I look at the level of op, and the party composition, and then pick something that will make the DM happy (Nothing beats having the DM on your side for staying alive, and generally if they are having fun they will run a better game). Generally it will draw on many of the ideas I have had, and so neither can really be said to have come first.

For example, I really want to play a stormlord at some point, and possibly a bear warrior. I also would love to find a group where a drider was a good fit, or a bugbear. On the other hand a 40' armoured monstrosity sounds like it would be great fun, so I found a way to do it (ogre psychic warrior).

[ZamielVanWeber]

I prefer class -> race. I really need to know what kind of stat mods/free feats/racial substitution level access I will need to make my build work, so I need to know the core structure of the build first.

[eggynack]

Definitely class. It's the thing that actually determines what you're going to be doing, after all, and in the cases where race is really important, like with prerequisites or substitution levels, picking class first seems even more important. Seems rather odd to pick out a race and then look up all of the classes which have substitution levels with that race. Also, most of the things I build are druids, so that kinda makes the ordering decision for me.

Edit: Thinking about it deeper, race choice tends to act a lot like a feat, in both value and game role. This is made extra true due to the existence of humans, acting as an actual feat if no other race is worth more than one. In my view then, picking race before class would be a lot like picking a feat before class. It's just a lower order of resource, and should thus be determined later, as things on the top of the build resource hierarchy should generally inform the nature of things further down.

[Faily]

I have no specific way of going about it. Sometimes I pick a race randomly to a build. Sometimes the race selection is done for me while I'm constructing the character and the background begins to form.

Just to point it out from some of the characters I've played the last years:
Soah (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=56841) - I had decided on Wizard and while looking around for interesting Prestige Classes, I found Ultimate Magus. As I began theorizing the build, I imagined a character who had been born in a family of wizards, with daddy being an Archmage Wizard, and she was expected to follow the family tradition of wizardry. When she began showing signs of spontaneous magic, it was very frowned upon to use such "unrefined and barbaric magic". With this idea, I thought that Elf was a nice fit, considering their usual snobbery regarding reckless use of magic and their emphasis on Wizard over Sorcerer.

The Green Sparrow (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=56834) - Random race and class rolled as a challenge from the DM, and I got Halfling Swashbuckler. It was the most fun character I had built in a long time, and despite being very low-powered all over, it was great fun to play. Swashbuckler/Rogue/Thief Acrobat/Blade Bravo. Once I knew I was playing a Halfling Swashbuckler, I had such wonderful visions of a miniature Eroll Flynn (the female version).

Nymeria (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=56836) - Since ToB would be allowed for the game, I was dead-set on playing Jade Phoenix Mage to quench my thirst for playing a gish. I decided quickly on Warblade/Wizard combo, but I decided early on I didn't want a Familiar, so I looked for interesting ACFs, and settled on Elf Generalist... and I hadn't even intended to play Elf. XD Oh well, it was still fun and I based the character on being the child of a Magus-PC from a Pathfinder-campaign we still got going.

Sheliya (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=55885) - Yet another Elf! Though this time, I decided on Elf the moment I read the setting for War of the Burning Sky. The Shining Realm of Shahalesti aka Nazi-Elves committing apartheid against non-elves... I had already eyed playing a Paladin since I rolled almost ungodly stats, and the thought of portraying a Champion of Good from a place like that was too good to pass up. :smallbiggrin:


So yeah, sometimes class has come first, sometimes race came first. Sometimes together. If I don't know the setting or just playing something generic, I'll most likely just roll up something Human. When I know the setting, I usually pick something I think is cool or interesting based on culture, a specific race or history.

[A Tad Insane]

When making a character, I usually say "this class/concept is cool", then build a character who's life, skills and interests would make them take that class at one point, then I make the build before it goes through plot shenanigans that may or may not cause it to change.
If you have trouble with this from a role playing perspective, ask yourself, unless their race/species is going to be an issue, how many fantasy/sci-fi authors say "I need an elf" as opposed to "I need a outdoorsy person to help the protagonist through the woods"

[Cruiser1]

Lately, in Eberron, it's been more of a mixed order of things. My concept of a dragonmarked character will come first, then the race, then the class. I'm pretty sure concept always comes first however, then you pick what is needed to fit that concept, on either end, race and class.
Eberron shows that in some cases race must follow concept. If you want to have a particular true dragonmark, or be a dragonmarked member of a particular House, then you must be a particular race (or occasionally one of two races) in order to have that dragonmark. So if you want to be a dragonmarked healer in a House of healing, then your only option is to be a halfling.

Interestingly, according to character generation rules it goes the reverse of how we often design builds in our heads first. In other words, you select your race first, followed by your class (because some classes, especially PrC's, are restricted to certain races).

[Jeff the Green]

Going through my recentish characters (both those that saw play and those that didn't, but only ones I actually made), I've got:

Chose race + one feat (changeling + racial emulation)
Chose at the same time (Uurkrau is really good for Archivists and Dexterity's good for Beguilers; with necropolitan you can get buy 18 in the only stats that will matter; Beguiler and Archivist theurge well)
Chose racial class (dryad)
Chose class (homebrew Factotum/Artificer theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273831-PrC-Mechas-and-flamethrowers-Artificer-Factotum-theurge-(WIP-PEACH)&p=14803127#post14803127))
Chose class (Vampire)
Chose weapon (sugliin)
Chose class (archivist)
Chose template (were-gerbil)
Chose racial class (yakfolk)
Chose shtick (really scary cat)
Chose class (homebrew incarnum/Beguiler theurge (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?273832-3-5-PrC-I-shall-wear-midnight-Beguiler-Incarnum-theurge-(PEACH)&p=14803136#post14803136))
Chose template (quorbred)
Chose race, I suppose (this (http://jeftoon01.deviantart.com/art/Twisted-Princess-Jasmine-105058755) twisted Jasmine)
Chose class (Ruby Knight Vindicator)


But a fair number of those involved seeing something and having a fully formed concept pop into my head. Jasmine, for example, had to be a human Arcane Hierophant because she's obviously a Bard and Raja obviously has Intelligence > 2, the yakfolk had to be psionic because I wanted him to be an ascetic and I don't like martial artist monks, and the vampire had to be a summoner because they had to survive in a dungeoncrawl.

[Vhaidara]

1. Can I use Warforged?
2. Can I use DSP material?
3. Can I use Planetouched without LA (PF Dhampir count as vamp-touched)?
4. Can I use Incarnum?
5. Can I use goliaths?
6. Can I use other stuff?

Once I hit a yes on a race and a class, I make a character.

[Hunor]

Concept first, then class (with an idea to possible future multi-classing), then pick a race that makes sense in the world to have ended up in the role that my concept/class dictated.

[Hiro Protagonest]

I'm one of those boring people who always plays humans.

Though Alchemical Exalted and other practically-human robots count as human to me. :smalltongue:

[BrokenChord]

Well, duh. I come to the table because I like to play doctors, not because I want to explore a social status that might or might not be able to become a doctor. Being a social status other than middle-class 1st-worlder might make for incredibly interesting fluff and mechanics despite not being as optimal as middle-class 1st-worlder, but it any case the end result has to be something I'll enjoy playing, which in this case is doctor.

[Qwertystop]

I usually start from an idea, then fill in anything not dictated by that idea however it fits best. Sometimes, that means that the race is a given, I'd the idea is based strongly in a specific race's place in the setting. Sometimes it means class is a given, if the idea started from an interesting mechanic. Sometimes it's neither, and I have to figure out some way to put together crunch to make that work within the rules. Maybe a specific race or class is practically required for a particularly tricky idea, or meshes really well with the fluff In looking for. Maybe race is completely irrelevant to the idea, at which point I tend to hang there until I can get past the indecision.

Neither race nor class are a starting point for me - concepts are.

[Terazul]

Entirely depends on inspiration and what I'm building for. Sometimes I see a class feature or feat or spell that I want to build around, and so it starts from there; I'll pick classes that match/lead up to the concept I want. Other times, if someone presents me with a world I'll be enthralled by a particular race or culture within it, and build around that. I would say that by default if there's no pressing need (concept or lore-wise) not to, I tend to drift to Human or Warforged.

Human's always great, and robots are cool.

[Admiral Squish]

I pretty much always build race first. I think, if handled correctly, a character's race is sort of the lens by which all other things are filtered. To my mind, if you treat race like something you can tack on to a concept, then you're not using it right.
Say, I start looking into goliaths. Then as I do some research into the race, how they think, what they live like, how they interact, and I form a couple different concepts. Like, 'the strongest in the tribe', or 'a hunter eager to improve his skills', or 'a surefooted messenger'. Then I elaborate a little on the concepts, reject the ones that aren't interesting, and then get into the crunch parts, figuring out the classes and abilities needed to make the concept happen. There's a little bit of bleeding back and forth, like, I'll see a cool feat I want to try and I'll try to fit the concept to the cool thing, or I'll realize that the concept just won't fit with the race for some reason, and I'll have to change and rebuild.

In summation, race > concept > build.

[Lathund]

I, too, begin with a class. Then I decide what I want to do with it (role, concept) and then I start the actual building. I usually decide on my feats before I choose my race. Although I often end up with a human, because, you know, feats.

Then I repeat the process with a dozen or so other builds. Eventually, when the time comes to actually play a new character, I get a bit of a mental breakdown: "Okay, I've got these great builds, but what do I want to role-play?" Which usually leads to a new build, starting with a concept and a personality. Then I fill that in with a class. And then come feats and race.

[Curmudgeon]

Mostly it's class first, and mostly that class is Rogue. After that I'll pick a race which synergizes with the class.

Every rare often I'll come across an odd race that I haven't seen/used before, and start looking for a class which synergizes with that race. That approach isn't the norm for me.

[squiggit]

If I'm going into a group blind concept > class > race > details

If I know what the group is and am trying to make something appropriate: role > class > concept > race

But basically always class before race outside specific circumstances.

[A_S]

Concept first, then the order depends on the concept. If I started off going, "I'm tired of casters, I want to play somebody who hits stuff for a change," then I'll probably pick an appropriate hitting-stuff class, then choose my race to suit the build. If I started off going, "I've got this great idea for a wacky Jan Jansen-style Gnomish inventor schtick that would be hella fun to play," then I've already settled on Gnome, and my choice of classes will be informed by that.

This sorta thing also depends heavily on what I know about the game I'll be playing. If I know the setting has some race-related roleplay hooks that have really got me excited, I'm more likely to want to start with a race related concept, like, "Ooh, this background info on the decadence of the Elven courts in this setting is really cool! It'd be fun to play a disgraced Elf noble with all this stuff." If that stuff is absent or not as interesting to me, I'll probably choose a concept that revolves around what I want my character to do which is generally more related to class.

Overall, though, probably class before race more often than vice versa.

[WeaselGuy]

There's a fe races I absolutely love to play. Half Drow, Lesser Tieflings, and Kobolds are definitely my top 3, with Lesser Aasimar and Assorted Elf coming in to round out my top 5.

There are a few classes/roles that I prefer too. Rogue, Scout, Ranger, Paladin, Shadowcaster, Warlock... these are my most played classes. I like subtle characters, mostly, normally sneaks and scouts. Every now and then, I get the taste for magic, so I pull out either a Shadowcaster, Warlock or sometimes a Cleric. If I play cleric though, I normally go DMM:P divine beatstick. Other times, I like mounted characters, and then I go with Ranger or Paladin.

I say all that in order to say this: I know what I like to play, and depending on what I feel like playing, I have a set grab-bag that really works all the way around. Obviously, if I want to play the Cleric or the Paladin, I should probably play the Aasimar. If I'm playing the Ranger, I should probably pick the Kobold or the Tiefling. In no circumstance should I ever pick the Half-Drow, but as my favorite race, I tend to pick it more than most.

My wife, on the other hand, plays Pixies and Elves. She will almost always be either a Sorceress or a Scout.

[Renen]

I pretty much always build race first. I think, if handled correctly, a character's race is sort of the lens by which all other things are filtered. To my mind, if you treat race like something you can tack on to a concept, then you're not using it right.
Say, I start looking into goliaths. Then as I do some research into the race, how they think, what they live like, how they interact, and I form a couple different concepts. Like, 'the strongest in the tribe', or 'a hunter eager to improve his skills', or 'a surefooted messenger'. Then I elaborate a little on the concepts, reject the ones that aren't interesting, and then get into the crunch parts, figuring out the classes and abilities needed to make the concept happen. There's a little bit of bleeding back and forth, like, I'll see a cool feat I want to try and I'll try to fit the concept to the cool thing, or I'll realize that the concept just won't fit with the race for some reason, and I'll have to change and rebuild.

In summation, race > concept > build.

Id just like to chime in on why I do it differently (though your way makes a lot of sense).
I very very rarely use real fluff. So as such being a specific race means very little to me because instead of following the real fluff I choose something that would fit with the game. I dunno, I just dislike most fluff on races.

[RoboEmperor]

Class. Class determines what you want to do. Race is irrelevant unless you're picking it specifically to play that race.

For me though, I make a concept and try to get away with the lowest tier. Usually it's a debate versus wizard and sorcerer.

[hoverfrog]

I tend to go with what I think is a good concept and then try to maximise the effectiveness of the build around the idea. Of course the concept may well include a race or class such as a Sumo dwarf looking to avenge a great wrong perpetrated against his lord or a noble paladin trying to uncover the secret behind her mentor's disappearance.

Others don't require a race or class. A slightly unstable noblewoman sent to an asylum after trying to kill her husband (from a forced marriage) could be any race or class.

Some could be any race but fit some better than others. Someone who tries to protect herself from watching anyone else she cares for die of old age should come from a long lived race raced by a short lived race. In Eupraxia's case she was a tiefling foundling raced by a half orc but she could as easily been a half elf or aasimar raised by humans.

[SwordChucks]

I tend to decide build before race. I feel that if I start with the race, then the build is pigeonholed in to the classes that best fit that race. If I'm going to be a halfling I'm most likely going to be a rogue, but if I choose to be a rogue I might be a human, halfling, half-orc, or elf*


*In core specifically



Human's always great, and robots are cool.

No truer words have ever been spoken.

[Mr Adventurer]

My characters usually come to me in a fever dream, wholesale. What's that? Dark Hellbred Shadowcaster, so he's the shadow reflection of an Elven High Mage condemned to hell, his soul too overflowing with arcana to be imprisoned? Okay! (It was terrible, for the record, b/c Shadowcaster sux.)

[Vaern]

Sometimes I'll pick a race first and build on that, but usually only if nobody else has decided on what kind of character they're going to play yet. There have also been occasions when I've gotten myself killed and had to introduce a new character in environments where it doesn't make much sense to encounter many of the more basic player races, and so I had to find an appropriate race before putting a class to it in those situations.
Normally, though, my group decides on their roles together before we begin rolling up characters, and in that case we'll pick classes before putting a race to them.

[Zombulian]

Depending on the type of character. If it's a build that I may not play and is entirely Optimization based, I figure out the race later. If it's a character image I'm going for, I choose race first. For example, when I built the character I'm currently playing, I knew I wanted to play a Half-Orc. When I later realized I would want to use the Wilder class, I switched to Desert Half-Orc to get rid of the Cha penalty that Half-Orcs usually have because it would work better crunch-wise.

[Hand_of_Vecna]

For me it's Class before race 90% of the time (Concept>Class>Race actually). The most elegant way I can explain this is that I decide who my character is before I decide who their parents are. In fiction family trees are generally built backwards from the protagonists.

Rarely, I'll fall in love with a bit of race fluff and go Race>Concept>Class.

[ben-zayb]

Depending on the type of character. If it's a build that I may not play and is entirely Optimization based, I figure out the race later. If it's a character image I'm going for, I choose race first. For example, when I built the character I'm currently playing, I knew I wanted to play a Half-Orc. When I later realized I would want to use the Wilder class, I switched to Desert Half-Orc to get rid of the Cha penalty that Half-Orcs usually have because it would work better crunch-wise.

Seconding this. Sometimes, you just want to roll a specific concept like Kung Fu Panda and you kinda really need a pandalike race for that.