Pathfinder party composition advice if I want to play a Summoner

[Wiggins]

I would like to play a specific Summoner build in a Pathfinder game; our group has played Pathfinder a few times before, and are talking about playing it again soon.

My intention is to put almost all of my points into the Eidolon, start it out as the equivalent of a ranger's wolf animal companion, then have the head grow (improved bite making it a bigger weapon and treated as a two handed for power attack), and then split (extra head), then as it grows have the heads continue to first grow, and then split, and then grow, and then split, etc.

Combined with high strength, power attack and pounce, I expect this to get very nasty very fast, while feeling like a consistent and natural progression.

My character would be obsessed with the responsibility and consequences of being the creator of a being that won't have a place in the world beyond his death, wanting to be able to give his Eidolon the most complete experience of existence in the limited time they have together.

But my question is; What sort of party does this character belong in, power level wise?

I guess I'd be effectively a front line fighter, hiding my character in support and getting stuck in with the Eidolon? I know that one player wants to play as a Viking (Fighter/Barbarian archetype). We often end up with either 2 rogues or 2 clerics, or both. Our arcane casters tend to be glass cannon psychopaths.

What should I encourage my friends away from if I don't want anyone to think my pet cerberus is a glory hound? Particularly with the aim of making sure Summoners are never banned or limited as a house rule.

[Spore]

First and foremost:


Combined with high strength, power attack and pounce, I expect this to get very nasty very fast, while feeling like a consistent and natural progression.

Yes this does get off to a good start but personally I feel "new heads growing" nowhere near my definition of natural. Natural is when a creature adapts itself to new tools and abilities. The extra heads is more likely a dedicated effort of your summoner (in the downtime) to get your cute pet to grow some another heads.

Personally I feel like a "direwolf-esque" eidolon far more natural (just increase the size, damage, grab and possibly swallow capabilities of your bite attack) but if you want a Cerberus go for it. I would honestly start with a number of heads and then just let them grow. A head doesn't pop up with a two day notice beforehand.

Back to the rules, baby:
Your summoner is basically a buffing station with UMD as backup. The Eidolon will easily outdamage even well built barbarians. So if anyone plays a character incapable of castingat least 6 levels of spells you should really cut back on the power of your eidolon.

T3 (bards, magus and the lot) should be at LEAST aimed at and you provide enough melee together with the Barbarian. Predominately buff him with direct buffs (Enlarge Person, Jump, Protection from Evil) while giving a more sneaky character utility (invisibility, Levitate, Fly, Wand of Reduce Person).


What should I encourage my friends away from if I don't want anyone to think my pet cerberus is a glory hound? Particularly with the aim of making sure Summoners are never banned or limited as a house rule.

If you try to get more brute force than an Eidolon you will be disappointed. You could point your Viking friend towards a Skald (Barbarian/Bard Hybrid Class) or a Bloodrager (Barbarian/Sorcerer). Both have relatively similar melee possibilities while having spell backup. And the nice part: You can refluff any and all spells as motivation, bloodfury or similar. Remember how the Romans thought the Germanic tribes were full of nutjobs. Yeah, they were just high on drugs but still the image of barbarians and shamanistic magic stays in fantasy.

Rogues are pretty poor too. I'd suggest to ANY rogue trying to be a sneaky "assassin" type character to roll a Slayer instead. Almost same class skills, Studied Target is more easily to get to work than Sneak Attack, still spellfree flavor and full GAB and better saves in trade for 2 skill points per level. This, or archaelogist bard which can be an academic but also just a very dedicated treasure hunter.

[Wiggins]

I've had a go at rolling up the cerberus eidolon at various levels

For instance, at level 10 or 11, it can pounce with 5 primary bite attacks each treated as a two handed weapon. I see what you mean about outpacing the damage.

Getting all 5 attacks to the two handed size did mean putting off growing it into a Large Mount until level 13.

It's quite fragile though, even with the player character dedicated to buffing and healing it, its other early feat is probably going to have to be light armor proficiency.

(I'm quite interested in making the other 3 of the Eidolon's feats by level 11 Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush and Bull Rush Strike)


I would honestly start with a number of heads and then just let them grow. A head doesn't pop up with a two day notice beforehand.

That would keep me focused on adding extra abilities and interesting stuff at later levels rather than just keep adding more heads, but at low levels there'd just be some non-combat trained heads waggling around (especially as an eidolon can't have 4 attacks until 4th level or 5 attacks until 9th).

Thanks for the advice on the Skald, that's a good match for him. Very Norse.

Any more options along the Slayer and Archaeologist routes? My main concern is selling it to a Haley type player (in character and out), who doesn't like to get hurt except when it might make her rich, yet often ends up with the squishiest rogues imaginable, leading to her cowering at the back once she's taken damage, when she'd much rather be more useful.

[Barstro]

Being concerned about your party's makeup is nice to hear.

It sounds like you want your Eidolon to be more of a damage dealer than anything else. Will it be off fighting its own enemy, or trying to work with the Barbarian and Rogues to team up on people? Sadly, going for large size and lots of heads might make it difficult to get into flanking position for all the associated joys.

Between the Edolon's size/damage and the Summoner's Pits, the rest of the party can easily just be on cleanup duty for the few people left.

If you are concerned about not outshining your party, keep your Eidolon medium sized, throw those shadow powers onto him so he cannot get hit as easily, and use him for flanking. Maybe toss some Trip on to his bite attacks.

[Wiggins]

Yeah, I can limit myself to the appropriate 3 heads, and maybe start with them with only 1 doing any biting if we start at level 3, growing them to 2 handed weapon equivalents by level 8.

The miss chances from the Shadow Form and Blend seem both interesting and effective, but I was really hoping I could use him as a mount once he got big enough, mainly for rule of cool, and doesn't that make some lack of synergy if he's shadowy and I'm not?

Can I apply Shadow Form using the Surge spell?

[Wiggins]

I think that's the issue; where "I don't want to outshine the party, let's keep it reasonable" meets "Rule of Cool, time for us to start riding into battle on the monster we've made"

I'm caught between my 2 play styles

[Barstro]

I think that's the issue; where "I don't want to outshine the party, let's keep it reasonable" meets "Rule of Cool, time for us to start riding into battle on the monster we've made"

Wasting points on what many consider to be useless (Mount) is a good way to handle both. I believe Surge will allow for Shadow Form, but Shadow Form seems more like something to keep up all the time (in case of surprise rounds). You might have something else more situational that would be better from Surge.

You think that a man riding on a shadowy form "lacks synergy" instead of "wallows in awesome"?

[Wiggins]

I like the way you put that :)

Plus of course, the form of an Eidolon can be edited via spell or class feature enough that it's simpler to change than even equipment, let alone feats etc.

Thanks for the advice on that though.

Any more suggestions for classes I could make to my friends?

[Barstro]

Any more suggestions for classes I could make to my friends?

Nah, that's for you and your friends. :smallwink:

I'm a believer in helping others look good. My main Eidolon idea is a single Bite tripper so everyone else can get AoO. Barring that, I'd be a flanking buddy so the Rogues can get all the d6s. But play what you enjoy.

[Arbane]

its other early feat is probably going to have to be light armor proficiency.


I thought Eidolons couldn't wear armor?