Can you tie up a Gelatinous Cube?

[unseenmage]

Given enough time and chain, could one tether a Gelatinous Cube to a structure so that it cannot move?

Bonus Question: How to retrieve things from inside a tied up cube?

On this topic the RAW Q&A thread has this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620696&postcount=129) to say in response to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620450&postcount=128) questions.

[Oko and Qailee]

By the rules I would argue yes, unless you want to take the fact that they say


An ooze is an amorphous or mutable creature

as a rule, then I would say no.

[unseenmage]

There is a module I know of that has them hemmed in as though fenced which implies that their amorphous qualities are limited to pseudopods for attacking and some Jell-O'esque jiggling.
But that is admittedly conjecture based on a free, poorly designed D&D module.

[Oko and Qailee]

Hm, well I'd honestly say it's a DM call.

There is nothing that I can find that says they can't, save for the acid dissolving the rope (which only some oozes have). But I wouldn't blame a DM for saying an ooze was mutable enough that it didn't care.

As a DM I would lean towards saying you can, if only to make it more likely that you can have a gelatinous cube mount (you laugh, but I had a player who had one... he was moving far behind the rest of the party at level 15, but dang did he feel special)

[Flickerdart]

You probably wouldn't be able to tie up the cube (since it would dissolve the rope or squidge through it). The best way is probably to contain it in a shallow hole. With a STR score of 10 and 15ft speed, a gelatinous cube has a Jump of -6, and cannot Climb (as the skill description reads "you need both hands to climb" and the cube has nothing that might count as hands). Since the Jump DC to "hop up" is 10, a Cube could eventually manage it, so you'd need a hole slightly deeper than half the cube's height (so around 6ft). This still leaves 4ft of cube exposed for whatever grisly deeds you have planned.

[LoyalPaladin]

Didn't you catch the last issue of Faerun Farmers? It had at least 13 different ways to hog tie gelatinous monsters. That would be LoyalPaladin speak for "I have no idea how to answer that question..."!

[Barstro]

a gelatinous cube has a Jump of -6, and cannot Climb (as the skill description reads "you need both hands to climb" and the cube has nothing that might count as hands).

Are you really ruling that a gelatinous cube cannot make any sort of climb check due to lack of hands and still saying that it can make a jump check without said legs? That's so silly that it probably falls perfectly within RAW.

Tie one up?
Get three interconnected circlets on its "waist" and pinch them all so there is no gap (like squeezing all sides of a d6).
Any magic devices that prevent pseudopodding? That's not a word?
Create a malleable exo-suit for it that has a chain attached.
Magic spell that gives it an overwhelming desire to hold onto one end of a chain.
If all you want to do is not make it move; petrify it?

[Necroticplague]

Are you really ruling that a gelatinous cube cannot make any sort of climb check due to lack of hands and still saying that it can make a jump check without said legs? That's so silly that it probably falls perfectly within RAW.

Why couldn't one jump without legs? Dolphins can.

[Psyren]

You probably wouldn't be able to tie up the cube (since it would dissolve the rope or squidge through it). The best way is probably to contain it in a shallow hole. With a STR score of 10 and 15ft speed, a gelatinous cube has a Jump of -6, and cannot Climb (as the skill description reads "you need both hands to climb" and the cube has nothing that might count as hands). Since the Jump DC to "hop up" is 10, a Cube could eventually manage it, so you'd need a hole slightly deeper than half the cube's height (so around 6ft). This still leaves 4ft of cube exposed for whatever grisly deeds you have planned.

To play devil's advocate though - spiders and mountain lions don't have hands either.


By the rules I would argue yes, unless you want to take the fact that they say



as a rule, then I would say no.

Amorphous is defined as "shapeless and malleable." I would personally take that to mean you could seep through ropes, but it's really vague.

I don't see how one would tie up an air or water elemental either, not without magic anyway. But you can grapple those things. It's all weird and confusing.

[Flickerdart]

To play devil's advocate though - spiders and mountain lions don't have hands either.
Spiders have climb speeds, which follow different rules, as would mountain lions. In either case though, they have some kind of limbs that are a reasonable substitute.

[Psyren]

Spiders have climb speeds, which follow different rules, as would mountain lions. In either case though, they have some kind of limbs that are a reasonable substitute.

First part is not correct - even creatures with a climb speed use the Climb skill. You explicitly must still make climb checks even if you have a climb speed, for any slope or wall above DC 0. However, since you can take 10 and get a fat racial bonus to your check on top of any other modifiers, many DMs waive the roll. So even a spider etc. must actually make the check, hands or no hands; it's just that the circumstances under which they'd fail are so rare that they can be largely glossed over.

As for the second part, there are a number of oozes with climb speeds and no limbs, like the Carnivorous Crystal. Even if you did rule that a limb of some kind is necessary, a pseudopod should be sufficient to fill that role.

[Ravens_cry]

I would say you would have an easier time of it compared to most other oozes, as they have a relatively defined structure, comparatively. I'd give you a penalty, and you'd need *lots* of chain, but I'd say you could.

[SouthpawSoldier]

Re: Cube mounts;

I THINK Drow of the Underdark covered using them as mounts. Being inside one and drumming on it to herd it; it thinks the vibrations are prey. Not sure if that's the right splatbook.

[Flickerdart]

Re: Cube mounts;

I THINK Drow of the Underdark covered using them as mounts. Being inside one and drumming on it to herd it; it thinks the vibrations are prey. Not sure if that's the right splatbook.

Sounds like something Dungeonscape would cover.

[Oko and Qailee]

Amorphous is defined as "shapeless and malleable." I would personally take that to mean you could seep through ropes, but it's really vague.


It also says mutable, which means it can change. So it is either "shapeless" (how do you tie that?) or "changeable", both kind of imply it can't be tied.


I don't see how one would tie up an air or water elemental either, not without magic anyway. But you can grapple those things. It's all weird and confusing.

I always imagined water elementals and air elementals had some absurd surface pressure or something... now fire elementals.... those I can't explain without a lot of silliness.

[Psyren]

It also says mutable, which means it can change. So it is either "shapeless" (how do you tie that?) or "changeable", both kind of imply it can't be tied.

Right - but if you can't tie something up, can you grapple it? This raises some implications that need to be considered, and not just for oozes.

This goes double for PF, where you generally have to grapple something to tie it up in the first place (Use Rope was removed.)

[Oko and Qailee]

Right - but if you can't tie something up, can you grapple it? This raises some implications that need to be considered, and not just for oozes.


... dang, that's a very valid point. Wouldn't a successful grapple vs an ooze just be you sinking into it or something?

I can imagine some cocky overconfident adventurer running into the cube.

"Aha! I got you right where I want you!"

[Taet]

Gooey things can climb all right. I have a back door covered with snail marks for proof. They hide up there during the rain. :smallyuk:

Are the hard bits inside a gelatinous cube stuck there forever? You could reach in and tie onto one of those and hope the rope does not get eaten by goo. That makes it uncertain and disgusting and maybe damaging the player.

[unseenmage]

The RAW Q&A thread has this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620696&postcount=129) to say in response to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620450&postcount=128) questions. Will link in the OP.

Thing is, have three doses of Shapesand (can't make anything that would weigh more than it does) and can outrun G. Cube all day.

BUT there's an Iron Defender stuck in it. Want to save Iron Defender, retrieve a shiny shield and not kill the ooze. Mostly because of the slog it would be to kill the ooze in PbP and because actual plot beckons.

[LoyalPaladin]

BUT there's an Iron Defender stuck in it. Want to save Iron Defender, retrieve a shiny shield and not kill the ooze. Mostly because of the slog it would be to kill the ooze in PbP and because actual plot beckons.
Freeze it, shatter it, grab the stuff, and then run?

[Seclora]

BUT there's an Iron Defender stuck in it. Want to save Iron Defender, retrieve a shiny shield and not kill the ooze. Mostly because of the slog it would be to kill the ooze in PbP and because actual plot beckons.

Oh, Why didn't you say so? Just cast Energy Resistance(immunity ideally) Acid and make a disarm check to get the shield.

[Zakerst]

For me I'd say no to chaining it up keeping it there if it didn't want to be as it'd ooze its way through while holding it cube shape, now as for getting stuff out you could try using a chain net like a sieve, or you could use really long tongs.

That said if it was a funny enough or cool enough situation to warrant it I'd probably allow it ex using the "choke hold feat" I forget what it is but its a grappling thing from OA to pass out a cube depending on the situation I might not allow it but for the rest of the game I'd keep the ruling if it came up again

[Darrin]

Re: Cube mounts;

I THINK Drow of the Underdark covered using them as mounts. Being inside one and drumming on it to herd it; it thinks the vibrations are prey. Not sure if that's the right splatbook.

Amulet of Ooze Riding, Arms & Equipment Guide page 85.

[unseenmage]

Too bad the character is a Spellthief instead of an Artificer or a Factotum cuz then I could fake some spellcasting to use that Awaken Ooze spell from Dragon magazine.

[Oko and Qailee]

The responses from the RAW make sense. And I did think that grappling an ooze got you engulfed, grappling is odd in that when you grapple someone, you're both grappled. It's one of the few mechanics in the game where you're trying to give both your opponent and yourself the same penalty.

[Psyren]

The responses from the RAW make sense. And I did think that grappling an ooze got you engulfed, grappling is odd in that when you grapple someone, you're both grappled. It's one of the few mechanics in the game where you're trying to give both your opponent and yourself the same penalty.

Not quite the same - after all, one person controls the grapple, and that person generally has some advantages, such as getting a bonus on their checks to maintain and having the freedom to end it at will.

[unseenmage]

One of the things bugging me is that sure the G. Cube could by RAW ooze about like an ooze, but it doesn't.
And it doesn't have the Int score to decide to.

Whatever keeps this amorphous unshapable blob of ooze in a cube shape is potent stuff to go against RAW like that.
Potent enough to keep it in cube shape even if it is confronted with a fence or chained to a rock?

I don't know. That would be entirely DM decision territory. Which sucks because that always feels like such a lame answer.
This game has piles and piles of rules and precedents. Yet we have no clue what makes a G. Cube stay cube shaped until being cube shaped is no longer advantageous for it.

End mini-rant. (Sometimes this game is so absolutely irritating! :smallmad::smallamused:)

[Zubrowka74]

Well, can the ooze alter its cube shape enough to fit through small crack? If so, no way to secure it. If not, with enough acid-proof material (glass cage?) you could contain it. A single rope or chain would be enough though.

I wonder if Hold Monster would allow you to reach inside...

[Psyren]

One of the things bugging me is that sure the G. Cube could by RAW ooze about like an ooze, but it doesn't.
And it doesn't have the Int score to decide to.

Spiders don't have Int scores either, yet they can set traps, lurk in hiding, squeeze, and switch between melee and ranged as the situation warrants (e.g. vs. flying opponents.) I don't think the instinct to "ooze/melt through the thing that is keeping me from getting more food" requires much, or even any, brainpower.

[Xelbiuj]

One of the things bugging me is that sure the G. Cube could by RAW ooze about like an ooze, but it doesn't.
And it doesn't have the Int score to decide to.

Whatever keeps this amorphous unshapable blob of ooze in a cube shape is potent stuff to go against RAW like that.
Potent enough to keep it in cube shape even if it is confronted with a fence or chained to a rock?

I don't know. That would be entirely DM decision territory. Which sucks because that always feels like such a lame answer.
This game has piles and piles of rules and precedents. Yet we have no clue what makes a G. Cube stay cube shaped until being cube shaped is no longer advantageous for it.

End mini-rant. (Sometimes this game is so absolutely irritating! :smallmad::smallamused:)

Evolution. Generation after generation of living in dungeons.
Maybe cube is its natural or resting shape. It requires less energy for it.

[Amon Winterfall]

Given enough time and chain, could one tether a Gelatinous Cube to a structure so that it cannot move?

Bonus Question: How to retrieve things from inside a tied up cube?

On this topic the RAW Q&A thread has this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620696&postcount=129) to say in response to these (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18620450&postcount=128) questions.

Definitely, since the Gelatinous Cube doesn't have unlimited ability to split into fine pieces and reform or the ability to squeeze through something like sand and hewn stone.

One problem is the mass of the Cube--7 1/2 Tons--is enough to break chains given time. However, its strength score (10) suggests that the Cube probably would not lean through a wall, and it lacks the intelligence [-] to try.

The Chains would also need to present a basically solid face to the Cube--functionally, a wall made of chains. The Book of Vile Darkness' Wall of Chains would probably work. At minimum level cast (5th) you'd probably have to do this once for each direction you're trying to stop the Ooze from moving. If it can be pocketed into a dead end, only one wall would be needed.

Casting the spell four times and then having a Kyton manipulate the chains probably allows you to turn this into a giant leash.

Fishing something out of the Gelatinous Cube? Use Iron Body and walk in.

[LoyalPaladin]

The Chains would also need to present a basically solid face to the Cube--functionally, a wall made of chains. The Book of Vile Darkness' Wall of Chains would probably work. At minimum level cast (5th) you'd probably have to do this once for each direction you're trying to stop the Ooze from moving.
Actually, even if the jell-o monster can move through the chains, why not use this chain cage as a sifter? Just have it ooze through the chains and the stuff inside will be left on the other side? Problem solved either way.

[Feddlefew]

Definitely, since the Gelatinous Cube doesn't have unlimited ability to split into fine pieces and reform or the ability to squeeze through something like sand and hewn stone.

One problem is the mass of the Cube--7 1/2 Tons--is enough to break chains given time. However, its strength score (10) suggests that the Cube probably would not lean through a wall, and it lacks the intelligence [-] to try.

The Chains would also need to present a basically solid face to the Cube--functionally, a wall made of chains. The Book of Vile Darkness' Wall of Chains would probably work. At minimum level cast (5th) you'd probably have to do this once for each direction you're trying to stop the Ooze from moving. If it can be pocketed into a dead end, only one wall would be needed.

Casting the spell four times and then having a Kyton manipulate the chains probably allows you to turn this into a giant leash.

Fishing something out of the Gelatinous Cube? Use Iron Body and walk in.

Actually, you might not need a solid wall of chains. The cube is stupid- string up a few non-disolvable chains at around 5" off the ground, and the cube probably will consider them an impassible obstacle since they're the same width as it.

[Telok]

Squeezing (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/movementPositionAndDistance.htm#terrainandObstacle s)

To squeeze through or into a space less than half your space’s width, you must use the Escape Artist skill. You can’t attack while using Escape Artist to squeeze through or into a narrow space, you take a -4 penalty to AC, and you lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

Get it into a confined space with small openings. Use long acid-proof tongs, rakes, or a hook on a pole.

[atemu1234]

As to the jumping thing, all it requires is upward inertia, which is easily generated.