How to Optimize a Strix Archer?

[Lord Lemming]

For those of you not aware, the Strix are a Pathfinder race with +2 Dex, -2 Cha, +2 bonuses to stealth and perception, +2 will save bonuses against illusions, a +1 bonus to attack vs. humans, darkvision... oh yeah, and a 60ft winged fly speed with average maneuverability.:smallbiggrin:

Ever since finding it, I've wanted to build an archer character with it, for obvious reasons. Not only that, I want to build an archer character that can do stuff other than shoot a bow. The option I like the most is the Slayer class, since it provides some decent combat abilities, as well as quite a few noncombat skills. I've heard dismissive things about the Slayer Talents, but they seem fairly useful to me. Being able to emulate a rogue's trapfinding ability and take disable device is good. Poison Use would be especially helpful for a flying sniper. And Blood Reader, the ability to tell how many hit points your target has left? Helpful in all sorts of ways. Not to mention that if none of the other talents strike your fancy, you can just use them to grab Ranger archery feats.

But then, I'm not really an experienced munchkin.

With all the crazy stuff I've seen people on this forum come up with, I'm pretty sure that taking a poison-using Strix Slayer-archer is near the bottom of the list as far as optimization goes. So how would you guys build an archer if you have a flying race to work with?

[stack]

Well, flying and archery suggest that it would be helpful to either be able to hover reliably or be able to make worthwhile attacks while moving. Hover is a monster feat, and more fun if you are at least large. Sufficient ranks in fly to make the hover check would be essential for full attacking otherwise, not that you should skimp on that skill anyhow for such a character. DSP's marksman would be a good class, I believe the sniper path would help with damage off standard action attacks, but I haven't read it lately.

[Elricaltovilla]

Also from DSP, the stalker is a great stealthy ranged class. Solar Wind and Steel Serpent both play nicely with archery, although Solar Wind involves lots of flaming arrows. Steel Serpent is based on doing poison and ability score damage, and has some stealth and unarmed synergy if you want to pick up some skills to use in a pinch. Additionally, the Veiled Moon discipline is focused around teleportation, intangibility and stealth, and has a number of maneuvers that trigger on a ranged attack. Veiled Moon stances and counters are great for putting distance between you and targets who get too close, while the strikes offer you extra movement and some good ways to overcome DR via force damage.

For 1st party PF, Rangers are probably the best stealth archers, although they often benefit from being a switch hitter, so picking up close combat feats will help you capitalize on their skills. Plus if you want to go with the human hunting flavor, there's always Favored Enemy.

[Baroncognito]

I'd say that Slayer can make for an excellent stealth archer.

With Weapon Versatility you can do slashing damage with your arrows which allows you to use Flensing Strike with your bow, which allows you to eat away a creature's natural armour. It's not something a fighter or ranger can do because they don't get sneak attack or the possibility of Bleeding Attack.

Now the trick is seeing if you can find enough feats to pick up Improved Feint and Pinpoint targeting, because then you can feint as a move action, and then since you didn't actually move, you can use Pinpoint targeting to target a flat footed enemy, doing your sneak attack damage.

[Lord Lemming]

I'd say that Slayer can make for an excellent stealth archer.

With Weapon Versatility you can do slashing damage with your arrows which allows you to use Flensing Strike with your bow, which allows you to eat away a creature's natural armour. It's not something a fighter or ranger can do because they don't get sneak attack or the possibility of Bleeding Attack.

Now the trick is seeing if you can find enough feats to pick up Improved Feint and Pinpoint targeting, because then you can feint as a move action, and then since you didn't actually move, you can use Pinpoint targeting to target a flat footed enemy, doing your sneak attack damage.

I'd wondered if there was some way of making an arrow do damage other than piercing, I'll have to consider taking Weapon Versatility. I can't seem to find Flensing Strike, though.

I hadn't considered Improved Feint either; although now that I think about it, being able to make one sneak attack this round and a full-attack worth of sneak attacks the next seems embarrassingly obvious; kinda like a druid taking Natural Spell.

Pinpoint Targeting, though... If I get up to that kind of level, I could take the Far Shot feat, a compound longbow with the Range enchantment, and Pinpoint Targeting, and I'll be able to snipe people from 2200 feet away (Which is beyond the range of 'long' range spells). I'd get one attack at my full attack bonus with a -10 penalty that would ignore armor or natural armor, so it'd be pretty likely to hit. Now, I wouldn't be able to get sneak attack damage on it, but I could poison it, and I could use Blood Reader to find any weaker opponents I could pick off first. Not only that, but perception checks take a -1 penalty per 10 feet, and the stealth penalty for sniping an enemy is -20. So at that distance, I would take a -20 penalty to hiding from the guy I just hit... and he would take a -220 penalty to spotting me. Yeah. What kind of things would you suggest to maximize your damage on that kind of ultra-long-range sniping?

[Elricaltovilla]

You also take that penalty to perception rolls though. And for the record, I really never understood the sneak attack rules with regards to ranged attacks. Who the heck is prepared for an arrow hitting you out of nowhere from 2200 ft away, but also can't dodge one coming from less than 30 ft. away?

[Lord Lemming]

You also take that penalty to perception rolls though. And for the record, I really never understood the sneak attack rules with regards to ranged attacks. Who the heck is prepared for an arrow hitting you out of nowhere from 2200 ft away, but also can't dodge one coming from less than 30 ft. away?

Hmmmm. To your first point, I think that I only need a perception check to spot something that's TRYING to hide. Something standing out in the open, like, say, a guard on a castle wall, can be seen from a distance without needing to make a ridiculously huge perception check. If on the other hand, that guard makes his own stealth check and ducks behind the wall, then yes, I also take a -220 penalty to my attempt at spotting him.

As to your second point, I think those are two separate sets of rules we're dealing with. To my understanding, sneak attacks should be called precision attacks, in that you need to be close enough to slip your arrow through the gaps in the enemy armor. That's why you need to take him by surprise, so that he cant move the wrong way and spoil your shot, but also why you need to be within 30 ft, so you can see where to put the arrow in the first place. He won't be expecting to be shot at from 2200 ft, so he won't get his dodge bonus to his defense; but I'm not close enough to see where the gaps in his armor are. So even though by level 16-17 (which I need to take Pinpoint Targeting) I should reliably be able to shoot an apple out of that unlucky guard's hand at 2200 feet, I can't actually tell where to put my arrow for maximum effect.

[Baroncognito]

Flensing Strike (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Flensing%20Strike) is from a Campaign Setting Book, so it isn't in the PSRD.

Well, to optimize really long distance sniping, you need to talk magic items.

Sniper's Goggles allow you to sneak attack at any range (but give you +2 damage per sneak attack die within the first 30 feet)
Greater Sniper's Goggles are the same, but give the +2 damage per sneak attack die at any range.

The Greater Sniping Enhancement gives a +15 competence bonus to remain hidden after sniping and it's a flat cost rather than a enhancement bonus, so it's worth looking into.

I wonder how Far Shot stacks with the Rogue archetype Sniper's Accuracy ability.

[Lord Lemming]

Well, to optimize really long distance sniping, you need to talk magic items.

Sniper's Goggles allow you to sneak attack at any range (but give you +2 damage per sneak attack die within the first 30 feet)
Greater Sniper's Goggles are the same, but give the +2 damage per sneak attack die at any range.

The Greater Sniping Enhancement gives a +15 competence bonus to remain hidden after sniping and it's a flat cost rather than a enhancement bonus, so it's worth looking into.

I wonder how Far Shot stacks with the Rogue archetype Sniper's Accuracy ability.

Oh, wow. I didn't know about the goggles. I think we have ourselves a winner. One of the Slayer's level 10 talents is assassinate, which forces a save-or-die on a successful sneak attack. Being able to accurately hit an enemy from 2200 ft away, do sneak attack damage, force a save-or-die, remain undetected afterwards, relocate via fly speed, and be able to repeat indefinitely? YES PLEASE.

Thanks for the advice. :smallsmile:

[Baroncognito]

And a Slayer who takes "Ranger Combat Style" three times can get Pinpoint Targeting at level 10. (once at 2nd level, once at 6th, and once at 10) And archers are feat hungry enough that you'll need to take all those combat feats anyway.

[Lord Lemming]

And a Slayer who takes "Ranger Combat Style" three times can get Pinpoint Targeting at level 10. (once at 2nd level, once at 6th, and once at 10) And archers are feat hungry enough that you'll need to take all those combat feats anyway.

Hmmm. You're right, and since I'm getting no bonus feats as a Strix Slayer, I really do need those Combat Style feats. Still, there were three talents I was hoping to pick up, and now I'll have to drop one of them:

1) Trapfinding, so I can get Disable Device and Trap Senses, and so double as a rogue.

2) Blood Reader, which allows me to see how much HP my Studied Target has.

3) Poison Use, so I can make my arrows that much more deadly.

But if I'm taking three Combat Style feats instead, then I'll have to do without one; and I can't make up my mind. Which would you recommend?

So here's what the level progression would look like:

1: Point-Blank Shot
2: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Rapid Shot
3: Far Shot
4: Slayer Talent-Trapfinding/Blood Reader/Poison Use?
5: Precise Shot
6: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Improved Precise Shot
7: Manyshot
8: Slayer Talent-Trapfinding/Blood Reader/Poison Use?
9: Feat?
10: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Pinpoint Targeting
11: Feat?
12: Slayer Talent-Assassinate

So by lvl 12, I should be able to afford Sniper's Goggles and a Range enchantment for my composite longbow. At this point, I can sit 2200 ft away from someone, Study them for a +3 bonus to attack and damage, use Pinpoint Targeting to negate their armor and make up for the -10 penalty to attack, and get a shot off with pretty good accuracy. That shot will deal normal damage plus 4d6 sneak attack damage and force a DC 18 (with 14 INT) fortitude saving throw vs. instant death, plus any poisons I might have added to it. They make a perception check to find me, with a DC of roughly 230, and are naturally unable to spot me, though they might be able to figure out the direction the arrow came from, in which case I can simply use my 60ft fly speed to relocate. Sounds like the perfect combo to pick off minions with, though I'm not sure how well it will do against anything with actual stats on it.

So, questions:
1) Which of my 3 early level Slayer Talents would you suggest I drop?

2) If I'm shooting from 2200 ft straight up, can I make a Stealth check without cover based on the distance involved?
2a) If not, can I make a Stealth check to hide behind a cloud during the day?
2b) If not, can I make a Stealth check to hide in the night sky when it's dark out?
2c) If not, can I make a Disguise check to look like an ordinary bird?

And 3) Any other thoughts?

[Baroncognito]

1) I have never really had luck with poisons. That said, all poison use does is make it so you can't accidentally poison yourself. If you're only worried about poisoning yourself, you can pick up a cracked Gamboge Nodule and for 1,500 gp (or 2,000 with a wayfinder) you'd be immune to one type of poison.

2) Rules say you can only maintain stealth if you begin and end your turn in cover or concealment.
2a) A cloud would grant concealment (20%) so yes.
2b) Dim light or darkness provides concealment, so yes.
2c) Ask your DM.

However, at that point, I'd recommend investing in a seeking bow (+1 enhancement) so you could ignore concealment penalties when targeting an enemy, and a Ninjitsu Headband, which allows you to use sneak attack against enemies who have concealment. (Because if you have concealment from them, chances are they have concealment from you)

[Rolero]

Hmmm. You're right, and since I'm getting no bonus feats as a Strix Slayer, I really do need those Combat Style feats. Still, there were three talents I was hoping to pick up, and now I'll have to drop one of them:

1) Trapfinding, so I can get Disable Device and Trap Senses, and so double as a rogue.
Only go for it if there is not such a rogue in your group.

2) Blood Reader, which allows me to see how much HP my Studied Target has.
I don't see it useful enough to waste a talent on it.

3) Poison Use, so I can make my arrows that much more deadly.
The only way to make poison useful is to have a dedicated character, being the Alchemist the best in the field. Good poisons are really expensive and the low DC for their saves does not help them to result in a good option.

But if I'm taking three Combat Style feats instead, then I'll have to do without one; and I can't make up my mind. Which would you recommend?

So here's what the level progression would look like:

1: Point-Blank Shot
2: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Rapid Shot
3: Far Shot
You don't really need far shot that much. A composite long bow has 110 reach, that's more than enough for a safe sniping distance without penalties. Instead, pick up precise shot, because you will encounter the melee malus to your shooting much more often. I could even recomend to prioritize this to rapid shot
4: Slayer Talent-Trapfinding/Blood Reader/Poison Use?
If there is no rogue in your group, the Trapfinding should come up on top so you can fit that role. If not, I would recomend a rogue talent of your liking, combat trick and weapon training being good options at this level, since you are feat hungry.
5: Precise Shot
What I said above. I would pick up deadly aim to boost your damage output.
6: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Improved Precise Shot
7: Manyshot
8: Slayer Talent-Trapfinding/Blood Reader/Poison Use?
The same I said before, if you picked up trapfinding, pick up a rogue talent now. If you opted for the talent, another one doesn't hurt. You should improve your archery as much as you can.
9: Feat?
I would go for clustered shots here. DR is one of the banes of an archer, and by this level you can strike up to 5 arrows (2 attacks +1 haste + rapid shot + many shot) which will made the target DR irrelevant if at least 2 or 3 hit.
10: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Pinpoint Targeting
Another good option could be Point Blank Master. By this level, monsters that can fly are pretty usual, and could close up to you in the air putting you in danger. With this you will be safe no matter the distance.
11: Feat?
By this level and feat progresion, you are pretty much served in the feat department. You could always go for the snap shot feat chain, but it will require at least three feats to get it functional (Snap shot, improved snap shot, combat reflexes)
You can also considerate Hover to aid you air maneuverability, or even flyby attack so you can get to sneak attack distance, shot and fly away in the same turn.
12: Slayer Talent-Assassinate
I am not a fan to the save or die effects, and this is not only situational (you have to be undetected) but it targets Fortitude which use to be a good save for almost anything, and 18 DC by level 12 is not so difficult to pull off.
I would go for an advanced talent here, being Evasion the clear winner.

So by lvl 12, I should be able to afford Sniper's Goggles and a Range enchantment for my composite longbow. At this point, I can sit 2200 ft away from someone, Study them for a +3 bonus to attack and damage, use Pinpoint Targeting to negate their armor and make up for the -10 penalty to attack, and get a shot off with pretty good accuracy. That shot will deal normal damage plus 4d6 sneak attack damage and force a DC 18 (with 14 INT) fortitude saving throw vs. instant death, plus any poisons I might have added to it. They make a perception check to find me, with a DC of roughly 230, and are naturally unable to spot me, though they might be able to figure out the direction the arrow came from, in which case I can simply use my 60ft fly speed to relocate. Sounds like the perfect combo to pick off minions with, though I'm not sure how well it will do against anything with actual stats on it.

So, questions:
1) Which of my 3 early level Slayer Talents would you suggest I drop?

2) If I'm shooting from 2200 ft straight up, can I make a Stealth check without cover based on the distance involved?
2a) If not, can I make a Stealth check to hide behind a cloud during the day?
2b) If not, can I make a Stealth check to hide in the night sky when it's dark out?
2c) If not, can I make a Disguise check to look like an ordinary bird?

And 3) Any other thoughts?

My final recomendations will be onto equipement. One of your first buys should be the Bracers of Falcon’s Aim, bonus to perception, attack and crit increment? Yes please.

An adaptive Composite long bow will set you so any strengh improvement you may get will immediately aplied to your bow damage.
Seeking is another good ability until you can get Improved precise shot.
Ghost touch will solve your problems against incorporeals.
The best however, is one of the newer ones: Cyclonic. Say goodbye to being useless againts anybody who can cast a wind wall or is underwather. This should be a must as soon as you can aford it.

This are my recomendations, but in the end is up to you and your liking.

[Lord Lemming]

Hmmm. Well, your recommendations certainly make sense if I plan on being useful for anything other than ultra-long-range sniping, so the revised progression looks something like this:

1: Point-Blank Shot
2: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Precise Shot
3: Rapid Shot
4: Slayer Talent-Trapfinding
5: Deadly Aim
6: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Point Blank Master
7: Manyshot
8: Slayer Talent-Blood Reader/Rogue Talent-Snap Shot/Fast Stealth?
9: Clustered Shots
10: Slayer Talent-Combat Style-Pinpoint Targeting
11: Improved Precise Shot
12: Slayer Talent-Rogue Advanced Talent-Evasion

This DOES look a lot more viable for the sort of everyday combat encounters a party is likely to get.

[Rolero]

The only thing I would do is exchance Pinpoint Targeting for improved precise shot, unless you decide to adquire and keep the seeking ability for your bow. If so, this should work well yes.

About fast stealth, it is a good choice if you max out stealth (don't see any reason why you shouldn't) so you can scout getting the edge with your fly speed.

[Baroncognito]

It looks like the build has improved precise shot at level 11.

But I'd still recommend seeking because that allows you to ignore total concealment like invisibility. (edit: Well, as long as you can guess the square they're in. My rogue friend liked to use seeking because he could shoot a smoke arrow at his feet to get concealment and then use the rest of his attacks against an enemy who couldn't see him anymore and thus, an enemy that was flat-footed to the rest of his attacks. He did need the headband of ninjitsu for that trick though).