Is this encounter unfair?

[Falcos]

Hi all! So, I'm DMing for a group of casters, and I've been designing an encounter. I spent four hours tweaking it from a concept I read elsewhere on the internet, before a thought struck me: Is this unfair for my casters?

The group is composed of a gestalt sorc//wiz, a Wavekeeper Homebrew (from these forums), a beguiler, and a rage mage. A very powerful group.

The encounter, to summarize, is a red dragon who has been following them for a while, and likes their shiny magic items. Now, red dragons are canonically very intelligent and plan things carefully. Before it engages them, it's going to cast an illusion on itself to look like a white dragon, and also cast a protection from cold spell on itself. Then, it's going to lure them to a beach. Immediately upon engaging, it's going to hover, kicking up a cloud of sand to blind them. Then, it's going to fly in and attempt to grapple each member of the party in turn other than the Wavekeeper. Once it successfully has ahold of them, it's going to deposit them its flight speed distance out in the ocean. Once only the Wavekeeper remains, it's going to pick it up in its jaws, fly upwards away at a 45 degree angle, and breathe on the Wavekeeper. Then drop him the next turn.

It's perfectly in-character for the dragon, and they're a very powerful group of casters, but I can't help but wonder if I'm making it too brutal. Honest feedback, please.

[Flickerdart]

Does not compute.

These "powerful" casters (including apparently Rage Mage) are stopped cold by resistance to two types of elemental damage, and are incapable of flight, escaping grapples, swimming, or teleportation of any kind? A red dragon with sufficient sorcerer CL to cast Protection from Energy is a CR15 challenge, but this tactic isn't going to work on anybody above, like, level 5.

[Falcos]

Does not compute.

These "powerful" casters (including apparently Rage Mage) are stopped cold by resistance to two types of elemental damage, and are incapable of flight, escaping grapples, swimming, or teleportation of any kind? A red dragon with sufficient sorcerer CL to cast Protection from Energy is a CR15 challenge, but this tactic isn't going to work on anybody above, like, level 5.

This is me trying to challenge them. I'm wanting to know if it would challenge them (soonest they could encounter this would be tenth level), and your answer tells me "no".

I'm wanting to find a way to challenge them, in a beatable manner, without resorting to Anti-Magic Field.

[dascarletm]

A good starting point for challenging encounters is using multiple enemies.

Action economy may stop this plan before it can start to take off.

Also, if you can give details on these characters: anything the dragon would know, approximate level at time of fight, preferred spell usage/tactics, and anything else that could be relevant.

[Falcos]

A good starting point for challenging encounters is using multiple enemies.

Action economy may stop this plan before it can start to take off.

Also, if you can give details on these characters: anything the dragon would know, approximate level at time of fight, preferred spell usage/tactics, and anything else that could be relevant.

The characters change their tactics up enough that I can't really state what their preferred tactics are. The Wavekeeper likes straight-up damage, and the Beguiler likes illusions, but other than that, I can't really pin down a reliable "preferred tactic" on the party. They change their tactics so often (which is both wonderful and annoying, as a DM). The Rage Mage sometimes melees (Don't ask me why) and sometimes blasts, sometimes neither. The gestalt goes for plain-old god wizard-ness.

The most concrete tactic I can mention is that the Wavekeeper uses ice and winter spells very often, which does give him an advantage in this fight, if he realizes that it's not really a white and can overcome Protection from Cold.

The dragon has been watching them for essentially the whole campaign now, and is tailoring his tactics to fight them. That's why, as a small example, he's not dropping the wavekeeper in the ocean.

As for action economy, the dragon is aware that if they get to hit him first, they're going to detroy him, that's why he's taking three steps to prevent them just annihilating him in an instant: Kicking up the sandcloud with his wings, disguising himself as a white, and casting protection from cold on himself. He's hoping those measures are going to be enough.

I'm not on my computer with their spell lists, currently. And they can encounter this as soon as level 10, or as late as they can avoid being baited to the beach. I'm leaving where they go very much in the player's hands, I'm not railroading them into this.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A properly run dragon really should be "unfair." These tend to be some of the most powerful enemies in DnD, boasting massive HP, dramatic intelligence, casting, a powerful breath weapon, and a sizable full attack routine.

Since the dragon knows all about them, wouldn't it be smarter to make a pass, cast dispel magic to shred buffs, then make a second pass, grapple the rage mage, and fly off with him. An adult red dragon can fly at 600 feet per round and dump him a mile into the ocean. Repeat with non-wave keepers. Soloing them should be straight forward from there.

What age category is the dragon and what level is the party exactly?

[Falcos]

A properly run dragon really should be "unfair." These tend to be some of the most powerful enemies in DnD, boasting massive HP, dramatic intelligence, casting, a powerful breath weapon, and a sizable full attack routine.

Since the dragon knows all about them, wouldn't it be smarter to make a pass, cast dispel magic to shred buffs, then make a second pass, grapple the rage mage, and fly off with him. An adult red dragon can fly at 600 feet per round and dump him a mile into the ocean. Repeat with non-wave keepers. Soloing them should be straight forward from there.

What age category is the dragon and what level is the party exactly?

I had entirely forgotten that dragons could get dispel magic. Thanks!

I'm actually undecided on what age category the dragon should be. Again, want this to be "Hair-pullingly difficult, but beatable. Technically."

Again, it's up to the party when they fall for the bait to go to the beach, but the trap will be laid and they will first be able to go there at tenth level.

Basically, that "5% of encounters should be of overwhelming difficulty" chestnut? I'm aiming at that.

[Flickerdart]

Here's the thing:

High-level characters love to fly - Overland Flight should be on 24/7 as soon as they have access. Expecting them to stand on the beach is not at all likely to succeed. I'm not even going to touch the whole "lure them there" thing because PCs are guillible fools and a dragon's fat stacks of HD and decent CHA give it a nice potential Bluff mod.
After the cloud goes up, why would any of them stay inside of it? Dimension Door has been around for 3 levels, or there's always plain old walking. Dimdoor also beats grapples, FYI.
What does the dragon expect the three characters to do while he's grappling and flying away, nothing? PCs love to do stuff.
What does the dragon expect the PCs to do after he's dropped them in the water, drown? Is there a storm? Vicious dire sharks? Any sort of inconvenience for them whatsoever that prevents them from just continuing to cast stuff at the dragon?

This isn't just an unchallenging encounter. This is an encounter with no end-game. Even if everything goes as planned the dragon still loses because he's not going for a win condition.

Now, the sand cloud thing isn't a super terrible idea, but Hover is a terrible way of doing it, since the total concealment is only for targets 25ft away, and PCs cluster. Give the dragon a few lower-level minions lying in wait - one casts Fog Cloud to mask the PCs from one another, and the other casts Silence on the dragon.

Use the surprise round to grapple a single party member, and fly up, outside the range of enemy spells. Once there, dismember the captive at your leisure - Silence prevents them from casting non-Silenced spells (Dimension Door is V-only so a regular grapple won't help). If they manage to slip out of the grapple, they take a bajillion falling damage (a creature falls 300ft per round so it's tricky to cast anything but feather fall in time).

In the meantime, the PCs on the ground should be engaged by disposable minions. Their only objective is to stall the PCs - keep them inside the fog using Entangle and Web type effects, block teleportation with the standard tools of the trade, etc. They must ensure that the PCs don't realize one of their friends has disappeared, because if they have the free time and perspective to buff up and start blasting the dragon, he's not long for this world. It is likely that against powerful casters, their death will be quick and brutal, but even a single round gives the dragon enough time to escape with the victim.

The dragon can also beat the victim to within an inch of his life and swoop back down to use him as a hostage. Or just kill him. If he is high level enough, he can kill the hostage, Animate Dead him, then use that one spell that grants an undead creature the abilities it had in life, give him an illusory disguise, dose him with Feather Fall, and chuck him down. The undead makes up some story about how the dragon tried to drop him to his death but he happened to have a scroll of Feather Fall. That night, the undead murders his former allies in their sleep and the dragon also raises them as his undead minions.

[ZamielVanWeber]

A young adult with lore drake would get dispel magic with caster level 7th. With the loss of casting to rage mage that has a 55% of shredding his buffs. Another option is to use Strafing Breath from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Have his cast invisibility on himself at the start and blast them for 10d10 fire. Use a clinging breath to make the damage add up. I find a dragon shouldn't choose to engage until his foes and scattered and terrified
9make sure to make good use of dragon fear).

[Falcos]

High-level characters love to fly - Overland Flight should be on 24/7 as soon as they have access. Expecting them to stand on the beach is not at all likely to succeed. I'm not even going to touch the whole "lure them there" thing because PCs are guillible fools and a dragon's fat stacks of HD and decent CHA give it a nice potential Bluff mod.

I'm open to suggestions for what to do about this, but I'm not sure what solutions the dragon would have.

After the cloud goes up, why would any of them stay inside of it? Dimension Door has been around for 3 levels, or there's always plain old walking. Dimdoor also beats grapples, FYI.

Again, open to suggestions, but the dragon's highest priority is going to be to seperate them in the momentary confusion of the cloud.

What does the dragon expect the three characters to do while he's grappling and flying away, nothing? PCs love to do stuff.

The dragon expects them to try to attack him with his apparent weakness, fire. Ineffectively. Again, open to any help or suggestions. This is my first attempt to make a "hard" encounter.

What does the dragon expect the PCs to do after he's dropped them in the water, drown? Is there a storm? Vicious dire sharks? Any sort of inconvenience for them whatsoever that prevents them from just continuing to cast stuff at the dragon?

It expects them to take time to get back to shore, time in which he can deal with what he considers the most dangerous member of the party, the Wavekeeper.

Your idea about minions has merit, especially the idea of silence'ing the dragon.

The idea of just flying up has merit, although again, my thinking was that its plan was to scatter them, and then fly upwards with the wavekeeper in its jaws, breathe on it, then drop it to the sand from as high as it could reach in a round.

I don't like the idea of the animate dead thing, though, it feels against the spirit of this encounter. Can't really say what tangibly is off about it, but it's just not it.

I'm wondering what type of minions are usable for this kind of thing... They'd definitely not be getting a cut of the dragon's shiny loot from the encounter, though.


A young adult with lore drake would get dispel magic with caster level 7th. With the loss of casting to rage mage that has a 55% of shredding his buffs. Another option is to use Strafing Breath from Dragonlance Campaign Setting. Have his cast invisibility on himself at the start and blast them for 10d10 fire. Use a clinging breath to make the damage add up. I find a dragon shouldn't choose to engage until his foes and scattered and terrified
9make sure to make good use of dragon fear).

Dispel magic is definitely a wonderful idea, entirely in-character for the dragon too. Strafing breath is good, but red dragons canonically don't use their breath weapons much for fear of destroying loot. I don't think this one would use it on the whole party unless the party was in danger of winning.

There's also the concern I have of wanting the dragon to be disguised as a white, but not fight like one. I want there to be clues to show that it's not a white, really, that if the PCs are sharp enough, they'll notice.

I'm also thinking of, if the tables turn and the party starts winning, the dragon flees. Good recurring villain material.

[Nibbens]

Is this PF? If this is, the I'd suggest reading this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1). It has literally changed my life... er, well, at least made my DMing questions of "is this too much/too little" a moot point.

[Falcos]

Is this PF? If this is, the I'd suggest reading this (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1nx-o8VAjhUwh3nnfzDQT-JA5eFLnN_BZJiBitGjBMDg/edit?pli=1). It has literally changed my life... er, well, at least made my DMing questions of "is this too much/too little" a moot point.

Nah, it's 3.5. Reading it anyway, though, perhaps there's still something applicable.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm open to suggestions for what to do about this, but I'm not sure what solutions the dragon would have.

Abuse its 150/200 fly speed and the run action. If it nabs one of them or makes a strafing breath they have NO chance to catch up.


Again, open to suggestions, but the dragon's highest priority is going to be to seperate them in the momentary confusion of the cloud.
Grab and run.


What does the dragon expect the three characters to do while he's grappling and flying away, nothing? PCs love to do stu
Be tied up with minions and far far away as he speeds off like a rocket.


What does the dragon expect the PCs to do after he's dropped them in the water, drown? Is there a storm? Vicious dire sharks? Any sort of inconvenience for them whatsoever that prevents them from just continuing to cast stuff at the dragon?
Swim a mile. Without a swim speed they will eventually start flubbing those checks and drown.

It expects them to take time to get back to shore, time in which he can deal with what he considers the most dangerous member of the party, the Wavekeeper.


I'm wondering what type of minions are usable for this kind of thing... They'd definitely not be getting a cut of the dragon's shiny loot from the encounter, though.
Mercenaries. Dragons tend to have immense wealth and a red dragon will hire ones it can betray and kill after they tie up the PCs.

[Falcos]

Ooh, mercenaries. Hadn't thought of that.

Adds a dimension of "If the party is smart enough to realize the dragon will betray the mercs, they can try to talk to them" to the fight, too.

[Flickerdart]

Abuse its 150/200 fly speed and the run action. If it nabs one of them or makes a strafing breath they have NO chance to catch up.


Grab and run.


Be tied up with minions and far far away as he speeds off like a rocket.


Swim a mile. Without a swim speed they will eventually start flubbing those checks and drown.

It expects them to take time to get back to shore, time in which he can deal with what he considers the most dangerous member of the party, the Wavekeeper.
This is all very naive - with a flight speed of 200, it will take the dragon about 2 minutes to make that mile (remember that it takes actions to maintain a grapple). This is why I suggest taking exactly one guy and then bugging out of there until that one guy is well and truly dead - the dragon simply doesn't have the speed or the actions to try and move more than one person around. If the goal is to isolate the Wavekeeper to then kill him, just do that in the first place.

[Falcos]

This is all very naive - with a flight speed of 200, it will take the dragon about 2 minutes to make that mile (remember that it takes actions to maintain a grapple). This is why I suggest taking exactly one guy and then bugging out of there until that one guy is well and truly dead - the dragon simply doesn't have the speed or the actions to try and move more than one person around.

What about just dumping them 200 feet out in the ocean?

That's a perfectly valid strategy for delaying them until it can deal with the wavekeeper.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is all very naive - with a flight speed of 200, it will take the dragon about 2 minutes to make that mile (remember that it takes actions to maintain a grapple). This is why I suggest taking exactly one guy and then bugging out of there until that one guy is well and truly dead - the dragon simply doesn't have the speed or the actions to try and move more than one person around. If the goal is to isolate the Wavekeeper to then kill him, just do that in the first place.

I could have sworn there was a feat a dragon could take that would give him improved grab in this case, which negates the need for extra actions (Snatch maybe?). Also climbing up the dragon is limited to 75/100 feet per round, flying horizontally with snatch makes it 600/800. It only really needs two rounds to take someone out of combat for good (swim at half speed as a full round on a successful swim check) and come back and grab someone else and then swing up. There isn't much of a downside to spreading their foes all over and killing them ones at a time.

[Falcos]

I could have sworn there was a feat a dragon could take that would give him improved grab in this case, which negates the need for extra actions (Snatch maybe?). Also climbing up the dragon is limited to 75/100 feet per round, flying horizontally with snatch makes it 600/800. It only really needs two rounds to take someone out of combat for good (swim at half speed as a full round on a successful swim check) and come back and grab someone else and then swing up. There isn't much of a downside to spreading their foes all over and killing them ones at a time.

Snatch is the one, yes.

It also prevents reflex saves on breath weapons if it snatches you in its jaws.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Actually Snatch and Swallow was the one was I thinking of, but Snatch works. If you want to use Flickerdart's strategy I would recommend Improved Manuverability and Power Climb.

[137beth]

The dragon expects them to try to attack him with his apparent weakness, fire. Ineffectively. Again, open to any help or suggestions. This is my first attempt to make a "hard" encounter.

By tenth level, there are ways to bypass energy resistance, so this may not work. Even barring that, assuming the PCs will use the specific energy type the dragon is immune to is a big risk. By this level there is a high chance they won't be blasting at all, so it might not even matter. There are a huge range of more dangerous things the sorcerer//wizard could do with his/her turn, energy resistance or no. At most, the disguise will convince the PCs not to use shivering touch (normally a good way to deal with dragons, but doesn't work on white dragons). But, if they expect the dragon to have made itself immune, they might not use it anyways. And it won't stop them from acting, just cause them to cast different, equally dangerous spells.

[Falcos]

I'm thinking on it. My biggest concern is now "How do I insert clues that it's not a white, despite being disguised as one?"

Also, I'm going to allow the dragon to have True Sight, because it's been watching them and noticing that the Beguiler uses illusions a lot.


By tenth level, there are ways to bypass energy resistance, so this may not work. Even barring that, assuming the PCs will use the specific energy type the dragon is immune to is a big risk. By this level there is a high chance they won't be blasting at all, so it might not even matter. There are a huge range of more dangerous things the sorcerer//wizard could do with his/her turn, energy resistance or no.

Yeah, the sorc//wiz is my biggest concern too, especially since he's shown the most fluid tactics. His tactics can be summed up as "Whatever I feel like doing at the time", which, for a sorc//wiz, is a lot.

[ZamielVanWeber]

How will the dragon have True Sight? It is a 6th level spell for Arcane Casters and would do little except to hose the Beguiler here. A dragon has a high will save and is fairly intelligent; illusions are going to be unreliable as is, so throw him a bone. Also don't insert clues. They get to learn the hard way that its a red. Surviving a well built encounter with a dragon is difficult and rewarding so I wouldn't recommend you cheapen it by breaking your own illusion.

Edit: This has been bugging me, but why does one person get to gestalt? That can bug with CR badly (not much here thankfully) but he is so far ahead of the beguiler power wise that I am surprised that the beguiler hasn't complained.

[Falcos]

Fair trade. No true sight, but no clues it's not a white.

To recap: Hired mercs cast fog cloud or similar, silence the dragon, dragon buzzes them and dispels magic, dragon picks up each member and flies them out to sea, comes back, flies wavekeeper up, breathes, drops. If any party members reach shore/survive, repeat the "fly up and breathe/drop" part until all dead.

Then betrays and kills mercs.

If the fight turns around and the party starts winning, dragon flees. If it manages it, boom, recurring villain.

EDIT: One person gets to gestalt because he asked to. Others were all told they could, none took me up on it. They all feel like they do unique things, because sorc//wiz basically ignores all his illusion spells, allowing Beguiler to have their niche.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Once in the sky it can just full attack and drop them, which will do more damage than a breath. After it snatches the first person it can also go on the swing back: move back, breath on the remaining party. Next round grab someone and start flying up. Note that to get Dispel Magic you either need a Young Adult with the Loredrake Soverign Archetype or an Adult.

[dascarletm]

My biggest concern is now "How do I insert clues that it's not a white, despite being disguised as one?"


Using his fire breath. Superior intellect.

[Falcos]

Excellent, full attacks work better than breaths.

Also, I'm thinking that the "superior intellect" part (combined with a red's tendency to not want to incinerate their loot) mean that it won't be using a breath weapon if disguised as a white.

Except for, possibly, as a last resort, in which case it's probably been outed as a red already.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Since the dragon is reasonably smart (14/16 int) I would recommend you have some backup ideas just in case. He is smart enough to plan ahead if that Dispel fails to punch through the Fly/Overland Flight someone may have active. Also remember that Silence will cause Dispel Magic to have a 20% fail chance.

[Falcos]

Backup plan if someone's still flying: Repeat flybys with Dispel? Buzz them with breath weapon when all else fails?

Could also order the mercs to only Silence him when he's successfully Dispelled them.

Or, y'know, could have the mercs be the ones Dispelling. Also allows them to try to prevent anybody from rebuffing while the dragon's flying about.

[Deadline]

To recap: Hired mercs cast fog cloud or similar, silence the dragon, dragon buzzes them and dispels magic,

How is the dragon casting spells while silenced?


dragon picks up each member and flies them out to sea, comes back, flies wavekeeper up, breathes, drops. If any party members reach shore/survive, repeat the "fly up and breathe/drop" part until all dead.

Do the party members really not have anything to deal with water by 10th level? Really? Couldn't a single casting of Dimension Door get them back on the beach (it's got an 800 foot range at CL 10)?


EDIT: One person gets to gestalt because he asked to. Others were all told they could, none took me up on it. They all feel like they do unique things, because sorc//wiz basically ignores all his illusion spells, allowing Beguiler to have their niche.

The Rage Mage is the one who's left out in the cold on this. It's just a really terrible prestige class (albeit a flavorful one!).

[Falcos]

Yeah, he's a rage mage for flavour, really.

"How is the dragon casting spells while silenced?"

Those two should be done the other way around.

Alternatively, the mercs cast Dispel.

Alternatively alternatively, the dragon has Silent Spell.

I don't know a way to stop them just Dimdooring back to shore without resorting to AMF... Although I'm pretty sure that dropping someone in the water would at the very least, warrent a concentration check. Particularly if they fail a swim check and sink.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Rage Mage doesn't have caster level 10th. If I am guessing correctly he is like wizard 4/barbarian 1/ragemage 5. That gives him caster level 7. He is highly unlikely to be able to cast Dim Door. If so he just burnt a pile of resources and wouldn't be able to cover the full 800 feet distance in one casting.

[Falcos]

That sounds about right for him. But still, that's two more members who are going to be dropped in the ocean, one who can definitely Dimdoor.

(I don't think Beguilers can Dimdoor, but I may be wrong on that front)

Really, it's locking down the Wiz//Sorc that is going to cause issues.

Clarification: If I have the dragon layer Invisibility over the disguise spell, would both be dispelled at once? I cannot for the life of me remember.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Beguilers cannot Dim Door. I would drop the Rage Mage into the ocean.

Next swing back and breathe on the wiz//sorc. He has a low reflex save and moderate at best HP so it is easiest to simply nuke him with your 10d10 breath. The average HP of a wizard of that level with con 14 is 46.5 with the average damage from the breath 55, so it is likely to one shot him and take him out of the fight. With any luck he will have put up a ward against cold damage thanks to your white dragon disguise and will take the heat.

Next pick up the wave runner, drag her into the sky full attack her and drop her 75 feat for 7d6 on top of the 2 claws, bite, and 2 wings.

Don't forget when he snatches the rage mage they will all have to make a save vs shaken.

Edit: Dispel Magic will try to dispel all effects. Only the illusion may go, only invisibility may go, they both may go. Using Dispel Magic will break the invisibility.

[Falcos]

Beguilers cannot Dim Door. I would drop the Rage Mage into the ocean.

Next swing back and breathe on the wiz//sorc. He has a low reflex save and moderate at best HP so it is easiest to simply nuke him with your 10d10 breath. The average HP of a wizard of that level with con 14 is 46.5 with the average damage from the breath 55, so it is likely to one shot him and take him out of the fight. With any luck he will have put up a ward against cold damage thanks to your white dragon disguise and will take the heat.

Next pick up the wave runner, drag her into the sky full attack her and drop her 75 feat for 7d6 on top of the 2 claws, bite, and 2 wings.

Don't forget when he snatches the rage mage they will all have to make a save vs shaken.

Edit: Dispel Magic will try to dispel all effects. Only the illusion may go, only invisibility may go, they both may go. Using Dispel Magic will break the invisibility.


What about the beguiler?

The dragon is loathe to use his breath, as it may destroy treasures that the wiz//sorc is carrying, but otherwise, you plan seems excellent.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The dragon is practically helpless against the wiz//sorc casting. Breathing is simply the best option. The beguiler can be disposed of in the same manner as the wave keeper, although I expect they will be harder to pin down.

[Falcos]

Perhaps the dragon could stress to the mercenaries that the wiz//sorc should be locked down however possible, perhaps with Counterspells and grapples?

Good idea? Bad idea?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Always a good idea. Dragons rarely fail to plan ahead and counterspelling is a rarely used, if viable, option. A focused specialist abjurer with several preparations of Dispel Magic would stymie the wiz//sorc. Be careful though, you may want to give the players some hint that they pissed of a dragon. Surprise them with the color and the timing, but don't let a dragon with mercs come out like a thunderbolt from heaven.

Thought: the mercs would probably engage long before the dragon (dead mercs are not needing to be paid or betrayed mercs. Heck you can even loot them. The dragon would only swoop in once everyone had committed to combat.

[Falcos]

Always a good idea. Dragons rarely fail to plan ahead and counterspelling is a rarely used, if viable, option. A focused specialist abjurer with several preparations of Dispel Magic would stymie the wiz//sorc. Be careful though, you may want to give the players some hint that they pissed of a dragon. Surprise them with the color and the timing, but don't let a dragon with mercs come out like a thunderbolt from heaven.

Thought: the mercs would probably engage long before the dragon (dead mercs are not needing to be paid or betrayed mercs. Heck you can even loot them. The dragon would only swoop in once everyone had committed to combat.

I'm going to have the dragon following them for in-game weeks before they encounter it, and there are going to be hints that it wants all their stuff and is going to come for them.

They may not necessarily know it's a dragon, but they'll know it's a powerful being with access to strong magics and a propensity for planning, at the very least.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Okay, otherwise this encounter would be unfair.

[Falcos]

Okay, otherwise this encounter would be unfair.

As I have said, I'm aiming for "Beatable, just extremely difficult".

This is an odd question, but what kind of mercs? Not all casters, methinks. Perhaps half a dozen, three casters, three meleers?

[ZamielVanWeber]

Casters are extremely rare in DnD, so being able to grab even a single caster would be not unimpressive. Thinking about it I would recommend the caster be a sorcerer with Dispel Magic. A wizard would be too smart to get entangled with a red dragon. I would stick to an ECL 8 Party of 3 melee and a sorcerer (with a CL boosting item). That should tie up the enemy party nicely and be just strong enough to start to consume their resources and let the dragon snatch the rage mage. The enemy part would be instructed to try to ambush them while the dragon waits invisible. The invisibility will drop, revealing him to be a white dragon as he snatches the rage mage.

[Falcos]

In my setting, there's a big acadamy of magic with a ton of students (which the party is from) so magic is somewhat less rare.

However, your strategy is sound.

Now I just need to work out how to lure them, which is entirely on my end. Thanks for all the help, everybody!

[Cavir]

It's a dragon that has been planning for weeks and lives in terms of centuries. No need for it to kill the whole party at once. Snatch one and fly away with new loot. A week later grab a second at night. Then only wait one day to grab a third. Keep the timing random to maximize their fear.

The strategist in me is partly why I don't DM. :redcloak:

[Flickerdart]

Always a good idea. Dragons rarely fail to plan ahead and counterspelling is a rarely used, if viable, option. A focused specialist abjurer with several preparations of Dispel Magic would stymie the wiz//sorc.
This is a terrible plan - to make it matter at all, you're going to need a caster of around the same level as the PCs, which is in addition to the CR15 dragon. At least make it a cleric with Inquisition domain and Divine Defiance or something, so that he doesn't have to burn his actions on readying counterspells.

[ZamielVanWeber]

This is a terrible plan - to make it matter at all, you're going to need a caster of around the same level as the PCs, which is in addition to the CR15 dragon. At least make it a cleric with Inquisition domain and Divine Defiance or something, so that he doesn't have to burn his actions on readying counterspells.
Or a caster with some CL boosting items, which I already said. Bracelet of Secrets does not boost CL, just save DC's so that won't work so boosting CL may be out of the question here actually.

[fishyfishyfishy]

Also, I'm going to allow the dragon to have True Sight, because it's been watching them and noticing that the Beguiler uses illusions a lot.


You can still do this. Give the Dragon the Scouts Headband from Magic Item Compendium. True Seeing is something a Dragon would definitely invest in (doubly so if it has been keeping watch on the party for weeks as you have said) and it makes for nice loot should they actually manage to defeat it.

It's not strictly necessary considering dragons have Blindsense and pretty good Will saves.

[Falcos]

Ahh, unexpected thing from a party member!

The Wavekeeper bought a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

So plan now is scatter everyone else, then start full attacking him?

I would have it drag them off one at a time, but that doesn't seem particularly fun for my players. "You were asleep, so something snatched up the party member who was standing watch".

[Flickerdart]

It is difficult to wear a ring when you no longer possess the hand. Improved Disarm never sounded so good. :smallwink:

[fishyfishyfishy]

Ahh, unexpected thing from a party member!

The Wavekeeper bought a Ring of Freedom of Movement.

So plan now is scatter everyone else, then start full attacking him?

I would have it drag them off one at a time, but that doesn't seem particularly fun for my players. "You were asleep, so something snatched up the party member who was standing watch".

Unless the Dragon is aware of this purchase I would reward the players foresight and let the encounter go as planned. Dragons are intelligent creatures, and even thinking on its feet it should be able to adapt its strategy to this new information rather quickly. So plan ahead for how it will deal with this, but let it discover the Freedom of Movement effect mid battle. Once it is aware there are a variety of ways it can deal with it. A simple Dispel Magic targeting the ring will disable it for a few rounds and allow the dragon the necessary time to grab hold and fly up and full attack.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'm with fishy. I forget where I read it, but one book advised having some tactics cards around to help you keep up with a dragon's dramatically superior intelligence (it isn't there yet, but eventually they are smarter than us all [except for whites]) That way when the party updated its strategies or outmaneuvered the dragon you had some already written down plans for the dragon to "think up on the fly."