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Quellian-dyrae
2007-03-31, 08:45 PM
When I started this class I was mainly aiming to take monks, remove the annoying lawful requirement, add a full base attack bonus, and dock the supernatural abilities. Maybe add one or two more fighting abilities. Then I remembered the combo system I put into the RPG I've been working on and tried adapting it here. I'm still somewhat unsure of balance issues. Comments and ideas would be most welcome.


Initiate

Initiates seek to master the arts of Ki energy and unarmed combat, much like a monk, but rather than seeking harmony of the mind, body, and spirit, they are primarily concerned only with skill at arms and clarity of thought. Their meditative practices serve to enhance their senses, and their martial training grants them tremendous speed and amazingly fast reflexes. In battle, they rely on lightning-fast combination attacks followed up with Ki-empowered finishing strikes to neutralize the opposition.

Initiates typically train under ex-monks or study the ways of meditation and martial arts themselves. They don’t follow a monk’s ascetic path, and some of them aren’t even very disciplined. Indeed, although most initiates gather their focus through meditation, it is possible to achieve clarity through activity as well. All that is strictly required is clear concentration on the task at hand. As a result, initiates are not restricted to the lawful alignments, and even chaotic initiates are possible.

Initiates typically adventure to gain more understanding of their abilities and to perfect their fighting skills. Good-aligned initiates use their combat training to defend others, while evil initiates ruthlessly slay all who oppose their goals. In an adventuring party, initiates tend to be skirmishers. Since their strongest abilities require that they focus on a single opponent, initiates tend to attack individual skilled foes, rather than tanking in a front-lines position. They use their superior speed to move quickly from opponent to opponent. This tactic also helps ensure that if they fail to utilize one of their combo attacks, the resulting disruption does not leave them vulnerable when they are already outnumbered.

Depending on which arts they have learned, initiates might also fill other roles in the group. A multiclassed rogue/initiate skilled in the hypercognition tree of meditative arts is about the best you can get when it comes to detecting traps and secrets, while initiates who learn the evasion and mettle abilities often focus their efforts on neutralizing enemy spellcasters.

Humans tend to be the most common initiates, but they are far from the only ones. Elves and dwarves have been known to pursue the class to master the arts of hypercognition. Halflings and gnomes, benefiting from the extra accuracy of the small size, are highly adept at successfully inflicting combo attacks.

HD: d8.
SP: 4.
Skills: Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Escape Artist, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Listen, Move Silently, Perform, Profession, Ride, Search, Spot, Swim, Tumble.
Proficiencies: Simple weapons, no armor, no shields.

Initiate
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+1|
+0|
+2|
+2|Finishers (3), Meditative Art

2nd|
+2|
+0|
+3|
+3|

3rd|
+3|
+1|
+3|
+3|Finisher

4th|
+4|
+1|
+4|
+4|Meditative Art

5th|
+5|
+1|
+4|
+4|Improved Meditation

6th|
+6|
+2|
+5|
+5|Finisher

7th|
+7|
+2|
+5|
+5|

8th|
+8|
+2|
+6|
+6|Meditative Art

9th|
+9|
+3|
+6|
+6|Finisher

10th|
+10|
+3|
+7|
+7|Double Finisher

11th|
+11|
+3|
+7|
+7|

12th|
+12|
+4|
+8|
+8|Finisher, Meditative Art

13th|
+13|
+4|
+8|
+8|

14th|
+14|
+4|
+9|
+9|

15th|
+15|
+5|
+9|
+9|Finisher

16th|
+16|
+5|
+10|
+10|Meditative Art

17th|
+17|
+5|
+10|
+10|

18th|
+18|
+6|
+11|
+11|Finisher

19th|
+19|
+6|
+11|
+11|

20th|
+20|
+6|
+12|
+12|Meditative Art, Triple Finisher[/table]

Martial Arts (Ex): The initiate has the unarmed strike, unarmored AC bonus, and unarmored speed bonus of a monk of equal level. Like a monk it takes no damage penalty when attacking with its off hand or other limbs (however, the initiate cannot make a flurry of blows like a monk can).

Finisher (Ex): Whenever the initiate makes a full attack action while unarmed, it may declare a combo attack. If it chooses to execute a combo attack, it must dedicate its entire full attack action to attacking a single opponent; it cannot divide its attacks among multiple foes. When executing a combo attack, the initiate has a chance to receive an additional attack. This attack is referred to as a finisher, and is made at the end of the initiate’s attack routine. It is made at the initiate’s full attack bonus.

Initiates are able to channel their Ki energy into powerful finishing attacks. A 1st level initiate learns three finishers, and it gains a new one at every third level. Whenever the initiate executes a combo attack, it must choose one of its finishers to utilize. Each finisher has a required number of previous hits to activate. The initiate must hit its target that many times during its full attack in order to execute its finisher (some finishers have stronger effects if you score more hits). If it fails to hit that many times, it does not get to make its finisher attack. The initiate must choose its finisher before rolling any attacks. The number of hits required is given in parenthesis by the finisher’s name. Some finishers require a minimum number of initiate levels to obtain.

Initiates are not limited in the number of times per day that they may use their finishers. However, the failure of a combination attack can disrupt the flow of an initiate’s Ki energy. When the initiate begins its combination attack, it gathers the requisite Ki energy, and by scoring successful hits upon its opponent, opens the path for the final blow to channel the full force of the energy into the foe. If the initiate fails to score the required number of hits, however, or if it misses on the finishing attack, the flow of its Ki is disrupted, leaving the initiate weakened and vulnerable. In either of these circumstances, the initiate sustains one point of nonlethal damage, plus one additional point per two character levels, for each required hit for the combo. For example, a 15th level initiate who fails a slaying strike combo (5 hits required) would sustain 40 points of nonlethal damage if the combo failed. An initiate who is immune to nonlethal damage sustains lethal damage instead.

A successful finishing attack that is resisted due to a saving throw does not trigger this disruption; the Ki was successfully unleashed, but the foe resisted its effects.

Any saving throws that are required as part of the finisher have a DC of 10 + ½ the initiate’s level + the initiate’s Wisdom modifier.


Burning Strike (1): The initiate’s finishing strike unleashes a blast of superheated Ki energy into the enemy. The finisher deals an additional 1d6 points of fire damage per previous hit scored.

Crippling Strike (2): The initiate’s finishing strike deals crippling damage. The opponent must roll a Fortitude save or sustain one point of ability damage to a chosen ability score per two previous hits. Minimum Level: 3rd.

Critical Strike (3): The initiator’s finishing strike automatically scores a double damage (regardless of the initiate's normal crit multiplier) critical hit (assuming it hits in the first place). Minimum Level: 6th.

Destroying Strike (6): The most devastating of an initiate’s finishers. An opponent hit by a destroying strike must make a Fortitude save or explode violently in a blast of Ki energy, preventing forms of raising that requires an in-tact body (there is enough left for a resurrection spell, however). Minimum level: 18th.

Depriving Strike (2): The initiate’s attack temporarily debilitates the foe. The target must make a Fortitude save or be blinded, deafened, or struck muse (initiate’s choice) for one minute per initiate level. Minimum Level: 3rd.

Empowered Strike (1): The initiate channels its Ki energy into additional power, dealing +2 damage per previous hit.

Escalating Strike (1): The initiate attacks when its foe is most vulnerable; it receives a +1 bonus on its finishing attack roll per previous hit.

Explosive Strike (3): The final blow sends a shockwave of Ki energy out in a radius. All enemies within 5’ per three previous hits sustain the effects of the final blow (damage and any additional effects that may apply). A successful Reflex save avoids this effect. This Reflex save gets a +1 bonus for each point that the target’s AC exceeds that of the original target of the combo, or sustains a -1 penalty per point that the original target’s AC exceeds its own. The target of the finishing strike does not sustain a doubled effect. Minimum Level: 3rd.

Hampering Strike (1): The final blow debilitates the target. The target must make a Fortitude save or be sickened or shaken (initiate’s choice) for one minute.

Incapacitating Strike (4): This finisher incapacitates the target. The target is rendered unconscious or paralyzed (initiate’s choice) for one hour per class level if it fails a Fortitude save. Minimum Level: 12th.

Knockdown Strike (1): The initiate knocks its foe to the ground with a heavy blow. The target must make a Reflex save or fall prone.

Launching Strike (1): The initiate sends its opponent flying. The opponent must make a Reflex save or be launched five feet per previous hit.

Locking Strike (1): The initiate finishes its combo with a swift grapple attempt. The initiate gains the benefits of the improved grab special ability for purposes of its finisher.

Moving Strike (2): The initiate uses the momentum of its final attack to spring away. The initiate may move up to five feet per previous hit above the first. The initiate does not provoke attacks of opportunity for this movement and ignores difficult terrain (since it is jumping over it). Minimum Level: 3rd.

Shattering Strike (1): The initiate finishes its combo with a blow for the opponent’s weapon or other item. The initiate’s finisher is a sunder attempt that does not provoke an attack of opportunity. The initiate ignores two points of hardness per previous hit.

Slaying Strike (5): The initiate’s finishing attack is lethal. The opponent must make a Fortitude save or die. Minimum Level: 15th.

Subduing Strike (3): The initiate’s finishing attack subdues the opponent for a short time. The target must make a Fortitude save or be either stunned or nauseated (initiate’s choice) for one round. Minimum Level: 6th.

Threatening Strike (2): The initiate’s finishing attack automatically threatens a X2 critical hit (regardless of the initiate's normal critical multiplier). Minimum Level: 3rd.


Meditative Arts (Ex): As the initiate progresses, it delves deeper into the arts of meditation, heightening its senses, reflexes, and mental strength. At every level evenly divisible by four, the initiate can learn one of the following abilities:


Evasion: Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: Tumble 5 ranks.

Improved Evasion: Minimum Level: 12th. Prerequisites: Evasion, Tumble 10 ranks.

Mettle: Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: Concentration 5 ranks.

Uncanny Dodge: Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: Spot 5 ranks, Listen 5 ranks.

Improved Uncanny Dodge: Minimum Level: 8th. Prerequisites: Uncanny Dodge, Spot 10 ranks, Listen 10 ranks.

Trap Sense: +1 per meditative art known. Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: Search 5 ranks.

Hypercognition: The initiate possesses an instinctive awareness of what is occurring within a radius of 5’ per point of its Concentration check modifier. Within this radius, it takes no penalty on Spot or Listen checks for distance (outside this range it still takes the full penalty; if its hypercognition range is 50’ it would take the normal -7 on checks against something 70’ away, for example, not a reduced total of -2). As a full round action, it may make a Search check that covers the entire area. It does not suffer any penalties on Spot checks based on its facing. Any ability that activates when passing within a certain distance of something (such as a dwarf’s stonecunning or an elf’s ability to detect secret doors) uses its hypercognition range rather than its normal range. Finally, it takes no penalty on Listen checks while sleeping, and any apparent threat or disturbance immediately awakens it. Minimum Level: 8th. Prerequisites: Concentration 10 ranks.

Improved Hypercognition: Grants low-light vision, as well as scent, darkvision, tremorsense, and hearing-based blindsense out to the initiate’s hypercognition range. Minimum Level: 12th. Prerequisites: Hypercognition, Concentration 15 ranks.

Greater Hypercognition: Grants blindsight (not hearing based) out to the initiate’s hypercognition range. Minimum Level: 16th. Prerequisites: Hypercognition, Improved Hypercognition, Concentration 19 ranks.

Weapons Katas: The initiate can use weapons as efficiently as unarmed strikes. All abilities normally gained while unarmed can be used through weapons (a multiclass spellcasting initiate can also channel touch spells through its weapon). The initiate’s base weapon damage is equal to its unarmed damage or its weapon damage, whichever is better. Minimum Level: 4th.

Feat: The initiate’s improved awareness of its capabilities grants it a bonus feat. Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: By feat.

Finisher: The initiate’s increased knowledge of its Ki energy grants it an additional finisher. Minimum Level: 4th. Prerequisites: None.

Improved Meditation (Ex): Starting at 5th level, an initiate becomes more skilled at the meditative arts. From that point on, it can purchase additional meditative art abilities as feats. It must meet the prerequisites for the meditative art chosen. Feats that must be drawn from a specific list cannot be spent on meditative arts in this manner.

Double Finisher (Ex): Starting at 10th level, the initiate can apply two finishers to one finishing attack. However, it must score the sum total of all required previous hits to activate the finishers. If it fails to do so, it loses the finishing attack and all attempted finishers, and takes damage according to the total of the required hits. If any or all of the finishers used require saving throws, roll a single d20 for the entire combo (though depending on the type of save required, this may result in a different total roll for different finishers).

Triple Finisher (Ex): Starting at 20th level, the initiate can apply three finishers to one finishing attack. However, it must score the sum total of all required previous hits to activate the finishers. If it fails to do so, it loses the finishing attack and all attempted finishers, and takes damage according to the total of the required hits. If any or all of the finishers used require saving throws, roll a single d20 for the entire combo (though depending on the type of save required, this may result in a different total roll for different finishers).

jlousivy
2007-03-31, 09:07 PM
the damage from the finishers may be a bit much, especially because 'monks' already have a hard enough time hitting

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-01, 01:12 PM
Should be a bit easier for these guys, with their better attack bonus. In any case, since I don't have a daily limit on their finisher uses, I figure there needs to be something stopping an 18th level initiate from letting loose with a destroying strike combo on every foe it faces.

Jalil
2007-04-01, 03:01 PM
Ya gotta hit it with the Nerf stick. Full BAB, perfect saves, and a d8 hit die? I'd play it right there, regardless of the abilities. Not to mention that evasion, Imp evasion, and mettle all stack nicely with perfect saves.

You might also want to reword the TWF fighting feats to read: "...That he would otherwise meet the prereq's for", or fear abuse.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-01, 03:11 PM
Yeah, fair enough. I'll drop Fort from 'em.

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 06:57 PM
You might want to change the fulff a little bit; as is, you're nigh paraphrasing the Diamond Mind fluff.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-01, 07:04 PM
Eh...can't do much about that. If diamond mind is some prestige class or something it's one I've never heard of, and if it's a typo of the still mind or diamond soul monk class feature I don't have the fluff anyway (I use the SRD and haven't broken open my PHB 3.0 in quite some time).

martyboy74
2007-04-01, 07:06 PM
It's a discipline inTome of Battle.

Kyace
2007-04-01, 07:21 PM
Hypercognition: The initiate possesses an instinctive awareness of what is occurring within a radius of 5’ per point of its Concentration check modifier. Within this radius, it takes no penalty on Spot or Listen checks for distance (outside this range it still takes the full penalty; if its hypercognition range is 50’ it would take the normal -7 on checks against something 70’ away, for example, not a reduced total of -2). As a full round action, it may make a Search check that covers the entire area. It does not suffer any penalties on Spot or Listen checks based on its facing. Any ability that activates when passing within a certain distance of something (such as a dwarf’s stonecunning or an elf’s ability to detect secret doors) uses its hypercognition range rather than its normal range. Finally, it takes no penalty on Listen checks while sleeping, and any apparent threat or disturbance immediately awakens it. Minimum Level: 8th. Prerequisites: Concentration 10 ranks.

I wasn't aware that 3.5 used facing rules. Or is this for another game/version?

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-01, 07:24 PM
Officially, it doesn't. There are optional facing rules in Unearthed Arcana and I figured I'd just cover them while I was at it. Also appropriate for DM's who ad-hoc a Spot penalty for the character being to your side or behind you without any strict rules.

Now that I think of it, I don't even know why I mentioned Listen, since you don't take Listen penalties for facing.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-04-02, 10:28 AM
Hrm...Y'know, this would work well if merged with my old idea for a the Vagrant; which basically learned different strikes that would replace an attack action in much a way that a wizard learns spells. Problem is that it was meant to be a chaotic alternative to the monk, but that's easily remedied by changing all references to chaos into law and vice versa. I'll see if I can finally finish it, then.

As for Double and Triple Finisher: does the target make a save for each of the effects if they're saves of the same type? For example, would a target make two reflex saves for getting hit with a Knockdown and Launching strike finisher?

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-02, 11:51 AM
Good question. Hadn't thought about that. I'm thinking one save for the whole thing.

elliott20
2007-04-02, 01:26 PM
Mechanically, I think it's a little too powerful, what with the finishers and all.

Stylistically? I have some issues with this too. The initiate sounds kind of like your standard martial art warrior sans the monk aspect of it. I have no problem with that. But the abilities you've given him kind of pigeonholes the character into one fighting style - one that relies solely on finishers and getting extra attacks. (Seems amazingly street fighter-esque) But as a fighter that represents a certain school of fighting? It's not bad at all.

Rowanomicon
2007-04-02, 09:11 PM
Hmm, this looks good and is a good idea. I agree it's on the powerful side though.
Personally I'd make Reflex it's only good save. Also I'd limit the Initiate to a number of Finisher uses equal to his level + Wisdom modifier (or something like that).
Also reducing (then redistributing) the number of Finishers and/or Meditative Arts would serve to nerf it.
Perhaps make Finishers 1st, 4th, and every 4 thereafter (8th, 12th...) and Meditative Arts 1st, 5th, and every 5 thereafter (10th, 15th...).
Then of course you would have to redistribute the other abilities to that there are no over or under powered levels.
Another idea for (slight) nerfage would be to reduce the Skill Points to 2+Int/level.
Yet another idea would be making Double Finisher at 15th level and taking out Triple Finisher.
Those are just a bunch of ideas. I think using them all would be a bit much, maybe all but the last one or two ideas would be good.

EDIT: Also, this has inspired me t start thinking about making a class that takes the Monk in the other direction. Are there currently and classes PrCs, or rules out there for something like that?

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-02, 09:33 PM
Hmm...I don't feel that finishers need daily uses, partially due to the nonlethal damage risk (even if you have a lot of attacks, you may miss on the last one) and partially because...well, because anyone who has the hit points to take 5+ attacks probably has the Fort save to avoid being killed. I might tone down a couple of them though.

I can't imagine a class focused on meditation having a low Will save.

The other options all sound viable. Before I try them, though, I'm going to see if just removing the TWF feats would work. Since attacks are so crucial to this character, that's either a pretty significant reduction or (more likely) three feats down.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-04-03, 01:20 PM
The problem is that the class as-is strongly encourages an all-offensive character based completely on accuracy and doing tiny damage until its finisher where it, well, finishes the opponent. Here's what I would do: nerf just about every finisher. Every one. Then introduce a system where the initiate can learn new techniques every other level or maybe even every level.

An initiate can choose to have a technique replace an attack in a full attack sequence and has slightly different effects, then if enough attacks hit the initiate may attempt to turn the last attack into a full BAB finisher. Conversely, could simply put the extra attack granted by Flurry of Blows go at the end of the attack sequence and let that be the finisher. I know, it sounds suspiciously like the Vagrant, but that's because it is. I like your idea, but it's too rigid; not allowing much variation at all between initiates.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-03, 02:24 PM
Thanks for the advice...but I can't agree with either of your points. I don't see the finishers as more powerful than a high-damage full attack action by any means. With...the exception of threatening or critical strike by a weapons katas initiate with a pick. That I need to make impossible now.

Other than that, though, I would be more afraid of a high-level character's full attack action than I would be of +1d6 fire damage per hit, or a save vs. stun. Even the destroying attack, aside from sounding good on paper, doesn't seem all that powerful compared to the seven hits you have to score to make it possible. An ability that applies to a single attack never seemed all that good to me compared to the potential devastation of a full attack action. The people that will be really threatened by the finishers are those with high hit points but low Fortitude saves--and I don't know of too many--or those with high DR. I guess I can see someone going all-out on accuracy to use its best finisher every round, because they want to use their finisher every round, but as a power play I'd take a high-damage full attack over a finisher any day. I'm not saying I'd give my initiate power attack, but the finisher wouldn't be the do-all and end-all of my attack routine. It would be a good way to make sure that the opponent that I just hit five times is definitely out.

As to the point about not much variety...I'll certainly grant that the two weapon fighting style is pretty much the best style for them. Just as it is for a rogue. Just as the mounted knight style is ideal for a paladin. Just as the two hander fighting style is best for a barbarian. The diversity comes from their selection of finishers and meditative arts. An initiate with moving strike, launching strike, knockdown strike, and subduing strike fights in a much different manner than one with burning strike, escalating strike, critical strike, and explosive strike. Likewise, a hypercognition-focused initiate can play much different roles than an evasion/mettle initiate. At the very least, the former is at its best against stealth-oriented foes while the latter is best at engaging enemy mages.

Eighth_Seraph
2007-04-03, 09:25 PM
You seem to be misinterpreting what I said. I didn't say that the finishers were overpowered, merely that if you wanted to add more techniques that could be used as part of the attack routine, then you'd have to nerf the finishers to accommodate them. If not, then keep it as is; but I see a problem in the fact that the entire flavor of the class involves the final blow in a full attack, and that's all. It can meditate to gain three abilities that other classes already get, with no flavor of their own.

My beef is that the initiate is a martial artist in the way the RAW fighter is a warrior. He fights. With his hands. And meditates to get other stuff. Despite that these abilities are indisputably useful and good to have in combat, they leave the initiate this bland class with good mechanics and no soul. If you're going to replace the monk, then the new class replacing it needs to have a distinct flavor within your campaign, or there'd be no reason to play it.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-03, 09:38 PM
Ah, I get it. Well, I agree with you, it is primarily for the mechanics. That's how I see classes. Just groups of abilities for me, as the player, to fluff out pretty much how I want.

Rejakor
2007-04-19, 11:00 AM
I'm sorry - i'm going to have to disagree with you. I think this class is overpowered. I'm currently looking at the monk. Although you have taken out a lot of things that the monk gets, you've kept the important things, the combat selling points of a monk. The AC bonus (wisdom and class) the unarmed strike damage, the speed bonus. You've also given the initiate extra combat abilities, finishers and meditative states. So basically, what you've done is you've taken the small bonuses of the monk, the still mind, bonus feats, ki strike, slow fall, purity of body etc and converted them into combat abilities. You haven't quiet transferred it equally though. For all the things you've taken out of the monk, you've put in more in the form of finishers and full BAB and meditative states.

So you've basically got a different, slightly more powerful monk. That's fine. But, and here is the big but, your monk, the initiate, is nearly completely combat focussed. This class is easier to min/max than the Psionic Ranger. By adding finishing moves to Extra Finisher, and getting a flaming enchant, and using Burning Strike, you've just added 6d6 to what, 4d8? Oh, and say you're playing a half-orc initiate with a strength of 20, that's a grand total of 4d8+8d6+20 at level 4. Assuming your attacks hit of course. I'm not going to even go into what happens when we assume that this enterprising player has gotten ahold of Psionic Fist(the feat). That pushes the total up to 4d8+18d6+20. I'm not even getting into some of the tricks that could be pulled at higher levels. Even a fairly un-enterprising character, simply using the base finishing moves, will be doing more damage than the evoker on average. You may think that the mechanics you have set up are balanced, and they are, mostly, but the problem is that they are focused on combat, and doing damage. Like it or not, this class will be jumped on by min/maxers, and other players who simply want to 'be the best', and not played as a serious class. If you want my opinion on how to stop such things happening, I think you should do what Eighth Seraph said, and give small bonuses, possibly cumulative per hit, on each hit. Try and expand the meditative thing, into more abilities (preferably more interesting than 'evasion' or 'uncanny dodge') and keep (and expand on) the status ailing finishers (think dazed, fatigued, sickened) or even such things as healing finishers (1/4 of all damage dealt by the hits previous to this finisher is granted as healing to the initiate). Make the initiate more of an all-round/interesting ability character than a damage dealing combo hitter.

Anyway, there's my two cp, make of it what you will.

Quellian-dyrae
2007-04-19, 12:18 PM
I think there's a slight misinterpretation going on here. The extra finisher that you can gain as a meditative art is another learned finisher (i.e. burning strike, subduing strike, etc). It does not grant an additional finishing attack. Yes, getting two additional attacks at no BAB loss at level 4 and being able to apply a finisher to each of them would have been drastically overpowered. No, I did not allow that option.