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View Full Version : D&D 3.x Class [3.5 Base Class], [Mythos] "Make us Whole Again"



ThreadNecro5
2015-01-06, 07:51 PM
related threads
this class is a part of the mythos subsystem developed by Xefas, more information can be found below:
Mythos Compendium
Mythos discussion thread 2


The Kreikiri

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/Kymme777/TheKreikiriBanner_zpsde5e7087.png

Banner created by Kymme.

"The last of the Not-Whole shall be discovered, though our eyeholes wince at their hideousness. Their bodies shall be absorbed and their imperfection shall be purged. The Machine Orthodoxy shall engorge the Not-Whole and their deficient isolation shall be obliterated in the Unity. Only then shall the last wounds in the Circle be healed. Only then shall this world complete itself."
—Izathel, High Chancellor

In the early days of existence, many beings of living legend lived, died and acted in ways beyond belief. In this time lawbringers brought order to this maelstrom and created many of its eventual inhabitants around beings who were composed of myth, eternal personifications of both old and new walked the lands. And in these early times they were hunted. A being called the Kyniteros stalked them. It may have always been or it may have been a creation gone wrong, but whatever it was, it saw the power of the legends. It tasted them, hungering for more. And so it began hunting these great powers.

Before the coming of the abomination it could only tear chunks off the legends. But these minor titans were enough and soon it was able to assimilate wholesale. It was seemingly unstoppable and it believed itself so. But the beings that were left were able to trick it. They opened the monster’s prison, if for only a moment, and seeing the unrivalled power ahead the Kyniteros could only try and claim it for itself. And so the hunter fell, leaving a fated crack in its killers’ cadge. The final fate of the kyniteros was an ironic parody of its victims, the beings who tricked it ripping and tearing its corpse for a fraction of its power. As this has been spread and bartered over the age’s its fractions came to permeate all beings, from the gods who gathered great chunks of the corpse to the blood on the fists of the monster that laid it low.

This unusual situation has had a number of strange results on the binding of the Kyniteros. First, as it was divided so thoroughly and in so many places it presented an unusual conundrum for the gods who went about binding the other beings of its primordial nature. For by this time its shards had become so dispersed that it may as well as already been bound, each inert when encountered on its own, indeed even some of the titans conquerors were bearers by this point, and said unconscious knowledge left an undeniable realisation in the early gods that to truly seal the Kyniteros would mean sealing themselves. This soon left a conspiracy in divine politics, sealing the largest and eventually the matter was mostly ignored. Indeed did the monster not tear it asunder? It must surely be gone? Right?
Sometimes a being may find an echo of the Kyniteros in some creature or object and draw upon it, anchoring it to their own. This act is rare but this merging of a splinter into a shard is enough to awaken the vestiges of the Kyniteros’s mind. As the creature’s transformation begins it discovers an inexplicable talent for the medical arts, and especially surgery, because soon it will find another echo. It will desire it. And it will fuse it with its own flesh and soul, and the Kyniteros awakens more, its new life weak, but that is of no concern, for it is everywhere.

Making a Kreikiri

Abilities: Abilities wise the Kreikiri is remarkable for its adaptability, with few limits on its potential abilities, when given the time and resources they can produce a graft or develop a skill to suit any situation that they have time to plan for. But beyond this the niche for the class will likely be in one of two roles: it could serve as a ‘buffer’, supporting the party with grafts and complementing their abilities with their horde of monsters.

Alternatively they could act as a hunter, mercilessly tracking and absorbing whatever gets in its way, this will result in a slow degradation in their self-control, laying waste to whatever becomes its prey with wild abandon, becoming a danger to whatever gets in their way. This approach grants them significant personal bonuses while sacrificing their humanity as a bestial killing machine, making the kyniteros’s resurgent might paramount, weather they or their traveling companions wish otherwise.

Races:
No individual race is prone to becoming a Kreikiri but those who exist in areas that would lead to either a high level of death, or those from cultures that are sufficiently advanced to possess the health care for formal healers are likely origins from which one could emerge. In either case it creates the most likely conditions for finding a shard of the kyniteros and allowing the would-be Kreikiri to draw upon it. Indeed it can often be the case where the Kreikiri can no longer be identified as their old race; a human may add extra limbs, eyes horns or even more unusual additions to their anatomy until their origin is unrecognisable, while an orc may turn their tribe into a gigantic flesh-suit to implant themselves into.

Alignment:
in general the powers of a Kreikiri give no natural tendencies towards a particular alignment, the exact actions the Kreikiri takes with that power having the real effect, some with good intensions may become mad healers inflicting horrors on the world in order to save the dying or become benevolent guardians of a particular town, tending to the local people and area. But just as likely to arise is the world-be evil overlord leading their army of twisted mutants or the feral once-human that prowls the countryside, recorded in the song of the band of heroes who go to slay it. Overall it is likely what the Kreikiri thinks their powers are that drives them to a particular cause. That is until the instinct to expand their shard of power takes over and the kyniteros begins to regrow, and likely leads the mortal down a darker path of assimilation and hunting to make it whole once more.

STARTING GOLD: 2d4 x 10 (As Druid

HIT DIE: D10
SKILL RANKS: 6 + INT
CLASS SKILLS: Craft (any), Diplomacy, Disguise, Handle animal, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Search, Spot, Use magic device
Proficiencies:The Kreikiri is proficient with all simple weapons, handaxes, whips and spiked chains, and one other martial or exotic weapon of your choice. They are proficient with light armor, but not with shields.



Lv
BAB
FORT
REF
WILL
SPECIAL
MYTHOS
EXCELLENCIES


1
+0
+2
+2
+2
Exceptional Mythos,
Mythos Known, The Kyniterosis'
Mythos, Broken Excellence, Sundered
Perfection
+2
+1


2
+1
+3
+3
+3

+0
+1


3
+2
+3
+3
+3

+1
+0


4
+3
+4
+4
+4

+0
+1


5
+3
+4
+4
+4

+1
+0


6
+4
+5
+5
+5

+0
+1


7
+5
+5
+5
+5
Fantastic Mythos
+1
+1


8
+6/+1
+6
+6
+6

+0
+1


9
+6/+1
+6
+6
+6

+1
+0


10
+7/+2
+7
+7
+7

+0
+1


11
+8/+3
+7
+7
+7

+1
+0


12
+9/+4
+8
+8
+8

+0
+1


13
+9/+4
+8
+8
+8
Legendary Mythos
+1
+1


14
+10/+5
+9
+9
+9

+0
+1


15
+11/+6/+1
+9
+9
+9

+1
+0


16
+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10

+0
+1


17
+12/+7/+2
+10
+10
+10

+1
+0


18
+13/+8/+3
+11
+11
+11

+0
+1


19
+14/+9/+4
+11
+11
+11
Exalted Mythos
+1
+1


20
+15/+10/+5
+12
+12
+12

+1
+1



The kyniterosis' Mythos:
An Kreikiri’s power is expressed in terms of one or more "Mythos", the building blocks of the legend that they are, and the stories that they have told and will tell. While any given Mythos varies from the rest, they share some similar traits. They are always Extraordinary abilities, and when they reference a difficulty class for an imposed saving throw, that saving throw is always calculated as (10 + 1/2 class level + wisdom modifier, unless otherwise stated). When a Mythos references a "level" that is not clearly defined in some other way, such as "character level", it refers to "class level" as in the number of levels one has in the Kreikiri class. When a Mythos references "allies", it specifically does not refer to the Kreikiri using it. When a Mythos grants a feat as a bonus feat, it is regardless of whether the character meets the prerequisites for that feat (unless otherwise stated), and if the character already possesses that feat (in some permanent fashion - via the normal allotment gained by leveling up, or through another Mythos, and so on, but not those gained temporarily, they must replace the prior instance of that feat with another feat that they qualify for.

Every Mythos has a Tier. The Tier of a Mythos ranges from 1 to 4, typically referred to as Exceptional, Fantastic, Legendary, and Exalted. The Exceptional Mythos of the Kreikiri belongs to those unyealding few, be they hunters or healers, who refused to become bound in their original state and who chaff against their limitations. The Kreikiri’s Fantastic Mythos are tales of those who became dissatisfied with their own form and skills and sought to improve themselves, becoming craftsmen of their life and flesh in equal measure, making themselves a walking canvases to a twisted art. A Legendary Kreikiri is the story of the re-emergence of the first days, how worlds will be built and torn apart, how an ultimate being will emerge from a conglomeration of itself and be whole once more. Once an Kreikiri is Exalted, they are marred exemplars of existence, split but unbroken, beings of singular duality and incomplete perfection, fallen but unstoppable, slaughterers who create life wherever they travel, building the world anew but always returning to its beginnings.

Some Mythos, in addition to their initial stated effect, have Basic and Advanced manifestations. When an Kreikiri gains access to a Mythos with a list of Basic manifestations, they may choose one such manifestation, and they gain that benefit immediately as well. This choice may not be changed later. When an Kreikiri gains access to a Mythos with a list of Advanced manifestations, they may choose one such manifestation, and they gain that benefit upon achieving their next level of Kreikiri. This choice may be changed at any point before receiving the chosen manifestation itself, but not after (choosing beforehand is just an easy way to mark it down on your character sheet so you don't forget that you'll be getting something later).

Mythos Known:
A 1st level Kreikiri begins play with two Exceptional Mythos that he qualifies for if this is his first level in a PC character class. At higher levels, he gains additional Mythos as noted on the Kreikiri class table. For characters that multiclass into Kreikiri after having taken levels in another PC character class, the 1st level of Kreikiri grants only a single Exceptional Mythos, rather than two
A Kreikiri also has the ability to learn more Mythos, above the ones automatically allotted to him by levelling up by performing certain tasks.

The first is to expend resources (e.g. Donating gold and supplies) to medical facilities for research, butchers for keeping their businesses open, and farms for keeping the crops fertilized (your future raw material needs fed after all) or alternatively spending resources acquiring knowledge pertaining to the local areas environment, flora and fauna (i.e. monsters) grants an amount of mythos points equal to the equivalent cost in GP of the expended materials.

The second is to release a created creature into the wild, honouring the division of the kyniteros’ power (earning a number of mythos points equal to 1/10th of the graft points used to create the creature.

The ‘Power-stealing aberrant-liege’ mythos also allows for a third source of mythos points when acquired, as noted in one of its manifestations.

By spending 1,000 Mythos Points and 250xp a Kreikiri may learn an Exceptional Mythos. A Fantastic Mythos requires 5,000 Mythos Points and 500xp. A Legendary Mythos takes 10,000 Mythos Points and 1000xp. And an Exalted Mythos takes 20,000 Mythos Points and 2000xp.

For half the listed price for a given Tier, a Kreikiri may learn a Basic or Advanced manifestation of a Mythos they already know of that Tier.

Learning Mythos above the standard amount requires astounding, nearly single-minded devotion to the story of the kyniteros. One may only utilize this ability while more than half of his effective character level (ECL) is devoted to levels in the Kreikiri class.

Broken Excellence:
As denoted on their class table, a Kreikiri gains a certain number of abilities known as "Excellencies". These tend to be more general, generic, and passive than a Mythos, but are useful nonetheless, and are drawn from their own separate list, unsegregated by Tiers. Like a Mythos, a Kreikiri may learn more Excellencies above their allotted amount. Each one costs 1,000 Mythos Points and 100xp, plus an additional 1,000 Mythos Points and 100xp for each time a new Excellency is innovated beyond the first. (So, 2,000mp and 200xp for the second, 3,000mp and 300xp for the third, etc.)

Sundered Perfection
As the body of the kyniteros was torn and sundered by the masses who tricked it, its power was being stolen and bartered over, like vultures over a fresh carcass, this came to be a defining moment in its history, its myth becoming divided just as its flesh. In its life the kyniteros was a hunter seeking perfection, an exemplar of all paths and near unbeatable in all callings… yet when its might was split and divvied up it became a being of fragments, its power scattered among countless. Due to this some of the Kreikiri’s mythos are labelled with either {whole} or {splintered}.

{Whole} is a representation of the kyniteros as a hunter and as a singular being searching for perfection. this results in you gaining +1/2 of a permanent increase to a single ability score for each manifestation of a {whole} mythos you have. Should the mythos not possess any manifestations you instead count has knowing a single manifestation of that mythos for this class features' purposes.

{Splintered} is a representation of the kyniterosis fate, to be split and shared, a collective being. This causes the Kreikiri to gain a bonus on checks to create creatures or to attach grafts equal to the number of mythos with the {Splintered} label you possess.


Note on natural attacks:
Unless otherwise stated natural attacks granted from the Kreikiri class deal damage according to the table below, varying depending on the characters size class and weather the attack is primary or secondary.


Attack type
Fine
Diminutive
Tiny
Small
Medium
Large
Huge
Gargantuan
Colossal


Primary
1
1D2
1D3
1D4
1D6
1D8
2D6
2D8
4D6


Secondary
0
1
1D2
1D3
1D4
1D6
1D8
2D6
2D8




Designers note:
This class uses some mechanics in certain mythos that were created by other users of this site for classes of their own design. The classes and their writers are listed here for reference, showing off some cool classes written by other homebrewers, and to avoid any accidental impoliteness of partly using someone else’s work and not giving them any credit:

Evolutionist class written by Draken

Ozodrin class written by Owrtho

Cosmic Horror prestige class written by MagiKeeper

Without the borrowing of the mechanics written by these people the clunky train-wreck before you could not exist today :smallbiggrin:.

Banner Character list:
The identities and sources of the banner characters are below, top left to bottom right.

Fran -Franken Fran

The thing -The Thing

Alex mercer -Prototype

Necromrphs -Dead Space

The borg -Star Trek

Cell -Dragan Ball Z

Haemonculus -Warhammer 40,000

Elesh Norn -Magic the Gathering

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-06, 08:16 PM
Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos


Beastmaster's Coiled Lash {Splintered}
Perquisite: -

Why is it that the Kyniteros’s independent shards are so often out of your control? Why do they not wish unity? And with this problem this new-found ability gives the solution.

This Mythos grants several benefits. First, this grants you the ability to deal lethal damage with a whip and allows you to use one to damage creatures even when they possess an amour bonus or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher, cease to provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip and you now threaten the area within your reach when armed with a whip.

Additionally you gain an internal organic whip in one of your arms (faintly visible within a half-transparent sack or as a writhing tendril under your skin) that may be extended or retracted as a swift action. When you have this whip extended you may not use that hand for any other purpose than using the whip (but you do not drop any item in that hand).

While the whip is extended you are counted as having a masterwork tool for the Handle Animal skill. The whip is considered a primary natural attack in all respects apart from using the abilities of a whip weapon, sized for a creature of your size category, and being able to make iterative attacks as per a manufactured weapon.

Should the arm the whip is attached to be removed and later replaced with a different limb (likely with a graft), it mutates over an hour to regrow the whip.

Advanced Manifestations:
Beast Mastering Hand
You gain Animal Affinity as a bonus feat. In addition by spending a full round action you may attempt to command any creature with an intelligence of 1, 2 or – (mindless creatures gain a +2 bonus on the save) within reach of your whip. The target creature takes a will save. Should they fail, you then make a handle animal check with a DC of 10 + the target’s HD.

The creature becomes under your control and will attempt to follow your commands (as per a Dominate Animal spell) for a number of minutes equal to how much you exceeded the DC of the result of the Handle Animal check (or only one round should you have rolled equal to the DC), but after this the target will attempt to flee or attack you or the creatures around it, depending on the situation it is in and what its nature would dictate. The creature will not follow suicidal or obviously dangerous orders, but may be inclined to attack others.

Should the creature leave the reach of your whip for two minutes the creature immediately becomes uncontrolled. Additionally should you take hostile action towards the creature (apart from using his manifestation), or have it reduced below 50% HP you must pass a DC 20 +animals CR Handle Animal check or have it immediate become uncontrolled.
You may extend the duration the animal remains influenced by you by re-using this manifestation on the animal.

Combat Tendril
You treat the whip as if it was one size large larger for damage purposes (now dealing 1d4 damage for a medium Kreikiri), its reach increases by +5ft, and finally it may be used as an additional limb, unable to be replaced with a graft or to wield a weapon (essentially meaning it can now grab and manipulate objects as if it was a hand). Finally you may now select this whip as your selected weapon with the ‘Meat-Shearing Butchers-Scalpel’ Mythos without need for any of its manifestations.


Cry of the Consumed {Whole}
Perquisite: -

The Kyniteros was far more than a simple killer, more than some crude brute, it was smart, it was cunning, its mind seethed with the countless memories of its countless prey, and so the Kreikiri in turn is also a being of remarkable intelligence, devouring the minds of the fallen in its own hunts, to use that knowledge to rebuild the Kyniteros.

This Mythos grants the Kreikiri a perfect recollection of all events that they have ever seen, they no longer have any memory blocks, forget any details or any other failures of the mind along similar lines, even resisting magical spells and other such effects that would unnaturally force it upon you, unless the level of the effect (eg. Spell level or equivalent) is more than half of the characters Kreikiri level. For effects that lack such a measurement, instead treat the level of the effect as its CR or similar value as appropriate.

To represent this perfect recollection the DM should offer complete and perfect information on the suitable memories that are available to the character, potently allowing perception and knowledge checks to allow the character to make sense of, and gather more detail on, that topic that the player did not initially take such a check for, e.g. a memory of the Kreikiri , with their adventuring party fighting an undead spellcaster that was only later revealed to be a lich, could, after the event, choose to re-examine the events and could take a perception check to notice a faintly glowing charm on an item on the lich, and them take a Knowledge(Religion or Arcana) check to determine that it was the liches phylactery, and so may be able to go back and destroy it before the lich returns.

As an additional effect, this Mythos ‘expands’ in its uses should you possess the ‘Power-stealing aberrant-liege’ Mythos: first:, it grants you perfect recollection of, not just your own, but the memories of all those from whom you have killed using the Mythos, and are able to take advantage of this information and examine it from their own perspective, as well as that of the memories original holder. Additionally the additional mental fortitude this gives grants you Iron Will as a bonus feat.

Second: You gain immunity to effects that read, detect, and otherwise form a mental link with you (e.g. Telepathy) as per your immunity to effects that would alter your memories, but you also immediately detect such effects and may choose to be affected by them. As a related effect any effects you do let through or are not immune to, the sheer influx of the residual minds, and the image of many dying moments assaulting the mental bridge temporarily causes the individual forcing it to suffer under the mental bombardment. This results in the source of the effect taking a will save, if they pass the creature is shaken for one round, if they fail they are paralyzed for a number of rounds equal to 1+1/4 your level, as they are griped in the final moments of countless creatures.

This additional effect counts as a manifestation of this Mythos.

Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker {Splintered}
Perquisite: -

The Kyniteros was broken. It was tore apart and everything contains its essence. And now that it has awoken it can take advantage of this to empower other creatures with its remnants all the while rebuilding itself.

This grants the Kreikiri the ability to use parts from the corpses of the fallen to make alterations to improve other creatures. These ‘grafts’ begin as a pool of ‘graft points’ that represent a mass of undisclosed parts of various creatures (these do not degrade or decompose due to being sustained by the power of this mythos). To collect these points the Kreikiri has to spend half an hour dissecting/vivisecting a dead or helpless creature and storing the appropriate parts. To be able to gather points from a creature, it must have a body composed of solid organic matter. Most Elementals, Constructs, some Undead and creatures whose body has been utterly destroyed (By disintegration for example) are not suitable for harvesting.

Harvesting provides a number of graft points equal to 1d4 per HD of the creature, doubled after rolling for each size above medium, and halved per size smaller (rounding up). Vivisecting a creature (and leaving it alive at the end) causes it to be considered one size category smaller for the amount of Graft points received. The surviving creature takes d6 constitution drain and is left alive at zero HP.
The constitution drain may be cured normally or with a Regenerate spell or similar effects (Regenerate heals all constitution drain from this ability but has no effect on any other form of ability drain), and creatures with regeneration heal from the drain at one point/week. Surviving a vivisection in this way makes a creature unsuitable for future harvesting until their constitution drain has been healed completely.

A creature with graft point pool is capable of giving its graft points to another creature that can gain them, and can receive graft points from other creatures.

The actual production of a graft is done as per the following method: you select one or more features available to an Ozodrin, and pay for them and any augments you wish to add, treating graft points as form point (you ignore any and all level-based requirements and limitations to adding the features and use the HD of the person with the graft for effective levels where otherwise necessary).
You may then upgrade the graft by allowing it to emulate one or more magic items, you do so by spending a number of graft points equal to half the market cost of the magic item you wish to emulate. With the GM’s permission, you may use the magic item creation rules given in the DMG to create your own custom magic item which you then emulate normally.

Creating a graft requires 10 minutes for every 5 points spend in its construction (rounding up), not counting magic items that are added which instead add a number of hours to construction equal to their caster level.

Features that apply a bonus based on the number of such feature possess, apply their effect from the sum total of all such features a creature possesses among all grafts. Augmentations and weapon enchantments from natural attacks only apply to the graft they are a part of.

You may also apply appropriate negative attributes to a graft such as losing the ability to breathe air for one that allows you to breathe underwater. Only the person with the graft implanted can use the item. An individual graft is required to be a single continuous part, and so you cannot have a pair of replacement arms as a graft all on its own, but they could if you have some manner of connection between them which could be represented as a flesh feature, and so it could be, for instance, an exoskeletal chest piece with muscle supports: example grafts follow.

To create a graft that gives gills and fins for aquatic exploration in the form of a section of replacement tissue on a creatures back you could use the following composition:
• 2 flesh (4)
• 1 condensed flesh (4)
• 1 filtering flesh (water) (2)
• Lumisous flesh (1)
• 4 fins (8)

To create a graft that grants a 40ft swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, immunity to atmospheric pressure, +2 to escape artist checks, +1 natural armor and creates light for a total of 19 points. Such a graft would take 40 minutes to make have a DC 19 Heal check to implant.

Or to make an arm with a claw attack and that can create water the following could be used:
• 1 Limb (2)
• 1 Claw (1)
• 1 decanter of endless water (4,500)

For a total of a 4,503 point graft that takes nine hours and ten minutes to construct, and with a DC 19 check to implant.

To attach a graft you need a helpless or willing creature to attach it to, and to pass a heal check with a DC equal to the points spent on non-magic items or 10 whichever is higher, + the total CL of the magic item components. The GM may allow you to lower the DC depending on the severity of any drawbacks you apply. Attaching a graft takes one hour, and you may take-twenty on the roll, taking twenty hours. On a failed heal check; you may not attempt to attach that graft to any creature for 24 hours. A creature may only have a number of grafts equal to half its HD + its CON mod, and a Kreikiri may have two grafts more than their normal limit.
Any creature may be given no more natural attacks from grafts than 2+ 1/3 of the level of the Kreikiri Appling the graft. One the creature possesses at least 15 HD, the number of natural attacks they may possess is recalculated using 2/3 their HD. Once a creature reaches 20 HD the limit is removed.

When attaching the graft you may choose whether the graft is an entirely new part of the creatures’ anatomy or if it is replacing a prior existing body part of analogous function. There is no mechanical difference but it is to be noted that replaced parts can often cause problems should they be removed and new body parts such as an additional limb can cause issues with disguise and such.
A graft may be removed without a heal check, taking half an hour but the creature will suffer the effects that the missing parts and the method of removal would incur, usually CON damage and some bleed damage until effects are repaired. e.g. removing an organ means you could leave the person with an open chest cavity. You do not have to heal or aid the person in any manner and the GM decides what appropriate effects would be necessary to represent removal. A removed graft is immediately ready for attachment to a different
creature.

A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be raised, and may not be recovered if the body is destroyed, e.g. a disintegrate spell was used. Should a creature with grafts be resurrected, destroyed grafts are restored. In any other case a Regenerate spell can restore any grafts lost to death if used within 24hrs of returning to life.

Additionally you may produce a graft that has no features for 1 point.

Basic Manifestations:
Bounty of Flesh
When acquiring points for creating a graft you now roll D6’s instead of D4’s.

Meat Reprocessing
With a minutes work you may break down a graft into its component graft points.

Stable Implement of Empowerment
By spending four (+2 per time this manifestation is applied to a graft, so 4 for the first, 6 for the second, 8 for the third, ect.) points you may form an Evolutionist mutation that is available without needing a specific feat to unlock (e.g. the plant mutator mutations) and attach it to a graft, giving its effect to the creature who receives the graft. This must be an appropriate mutation for the effect and intention of the graft

For the purpose of placing mutations in grafts the graft maker is considered to have a mutator level equal to his Kreikiri level. The mutations granted by this ability use the Kreikiri’s mutator level to determine the limit for how many times they can be taken, but use the target's hit dice as his mutator level to determine the power of the mutations. These limitations are applied to the host of the grafts so any mutations in excess of the normal limit (having multiple identical grafts with the same mutations applied to the same creature) simply go dormant, though other aspects of the graft will remain active as normal."
Additionally for forty points you may attach ability’s from a creature (as in any special qualities, attacks, extraordinary abilities, and such) to the graft. The points used to add this ability do not add to the implant DC, but instead the DC is given an increase by +5.
To do this you make a knowledge check of the variety to determine information about the type of creature the ability is from with a DC of 10 + the creatures HD, with up to a +5 modifier on the DC for creatures of a notably unusual anatomy (in the case of aberrations the baseline for ‘unusual’ are gibbering mouthers) and with access to a corpse of the creature the ability is sourced from that is suitable for harvesting graft points from.

This check may be done once per such ability during the harvesting of Graft points, and if the check is failed the parts that form that ability are destroyed in the attempt to remove them, though Graft points gained are unaffected.
Passing the check allows you to harvest enough material to attach the ability (whether extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like) into a single graft (a single harvesting cannot be used to make multiple grafts with the same stolen ability). If the ability is an augmentation to an attack (such as a Ghoul's Paralysis) it augments only the attacks of the graft it is in. Other abilities (Fast Healing, Spell Resistance, Spell-Like Abilities, etc.) are provided to the graft owner as per normal."

The GM is recommended to moderate what abilities are used with this ability, increasing the prices for anything that seems too much. An example this manifestations usage could allow you to make a graft that (somehow) contains the invisibility of an invisible stalker.

Skill-of-the-Flesh
By spending ten points you may attach a single bonus feat to the graft, this may be done mutable times to the same graft, doubling the cost per application (so 10 for the first, 20 for the second, ect).
The creature does not need to meet the perquisites of the feat, apart from those that are other feats.

Abomination-Making Meat-Master
You may now have an additional number of grafts attached to a creature equal to half their HD, those who benefit from this manifestation take a -1 penalty to socialisation-based skills per graft they have from this ability (as in those they could not otherwise have without benefiting from this manifestation), such as disguise, diplomacy, and other such skills to which appearance could play a factor.

Additionally the person with the graft changes their type to monstrous humanoid if they were previously humanoids or to magical beast if they were previously animals for the first three grafts they are granted by this ability, with other creatures’ types not changing. After the fourth such graft all creatures become aberrations in addition to their previous type, gaining the effects of both but not altering BAB, saves, HD, etc. Creatures that have their type change to aberrations from this ability also lose their maximum age, causing them to never die from age.

Meat Shearing Butchers Scalpel
Perquisite: -

The Kyniteros was untimely a thief. A thief of life, and a thief of power. And untimely the Kreikiri will be driven to seek its old power held in the flesh of others. Few however would willingly hand it over, and so the Kyniterosis mortal scion must pull them apart themselves. But the Kreikiri is not the visceral, roaring strength of the Monster that laid it low. No, it needs a weapon, a scalpel to sow life, death, its foes loss and its return.

This gives you the ability to empower one masterwork one-handed weapon, usually a dagger or similar item, into an implement to channel your avarice, your lust for might. A weapon so affected physically changes in a manner that makes it reminiscent of a surgical tool, a dagger becomes a gleaming scalpel, permanently washed in the blood, ichor and vital fluids of its victims, or an axe becomes a cleaver for slicing through bone and tendon for implantation. This grants the following effects: First the damage the weapon deals increases a die step and it is considered a masterwork tool of the Heal skill. As a downside however this weapon may not be given an enchantment bonus through means other than this Mythos, and any pre-existing enchantment bonus is rendered dormant for as long as this Mythos is active upon it.

At level three and every three Kreikiri levels you gain thereafter, your ‘scalpel’s’ effective enhancement bonus increases by +1, which can be represented by an increase in enhancement bonus (up to +5), or by the addition of special abilities with a value expressed by an effective enhancement bonus. Each time the effective enhancement bonus of the target weapon increases, you may alter what its enhancement bonus and special abilities are, though it must always maintain at least a +1 enhancement bonus (for example, a level 10 Kreikiri with a +2 dagger could alter it to a +1 defending dagger upon attaining level 11).

You may only have one weapon affected by this Mythos at a time but should you wish to replace it (such as if it is destroyed or lost) you may spend 1,000 Mythos points to select a new weapon (removing the effect of this Mythos from the previous weapon). Selecting a weapon with this Mythos requires one minute focusing upon it.

Advanced Manifestations
Hunter’s Claw
This manifestation grants you the ability to, instead of a weapon, select a single natural attack you possess. It is otherwise treated as normal for this Mythos.

Should you somehow loose access to this natural attack (such as through the limb being severed), the required parts to use it (including any limb it may be attached to) regrows (as per a regenerate spell) or is otherwise restored within 1d6 days.

Implement of Alteration
This manifestation grants you the ability to select any weapon you are proficient in as your ‘scalpel’.

Monster-Making Beast-Lord {Splintered}
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

This Mythos allows the Kreikiri to create an entirely new creature. This uses the Created Creature ‘feature’ below.
The creature will likely need training/instruction to perform complex actions beyond the original personality you designed for it, such as learning social norms or how many items work (e.g. doors, weapons, fire, etc.) should it lack skills that would suggest it has some instinctual knowledge of these matters. Created creatures are presumed to be fully functional from the moment of their creation, but may behave erratically for 24 hours after creation as they acclimatize to their existing. For creatures of INT 2 or less handle animal is needed to train them. Diplomacy or intimidate is needed for smarter ones as they have more choice over how they act.

Should the creature be sent wild or otherwise abandoned by its creator (e.g. for Mythos points), and has an intelligence score of at least 10 and a wisdom score of at least 14, it gains a level of Kreikiri after 4d3 months if it otherwise lacks class levels.

Created Creature:
The Created Creature is a medium sized 2HD creature whose type is of your choice with the following types possessing a point cost:


Type
Cost


Vermin, aberration, animal, humanoid, giant
0


Magical beast, monstrous humanoid, fey
15


dragon, outsider, plant
40


Ooze, elemental
60


Undead and construct
80



A Creature of the vermin or ooze type loses their immunity to mind effecting effects if they possess an intelligence score. Ooze Creatures also gain 60ft of blindsight at no additional cost, and Outsiders are native to a plane of your choice.

A Creature has a 10 in all ability scores before adding the following modifications: one stat gains +4, two gain +2, and one takes -2. You may make all choices regarding feats and skills; with any skills you put ranks in becoming class skills for the racial HD of the Created Creature. The Creature automatically has a torso, which costs 15 graft points, that is not calculated into how long it takes to create the Creature or the heal check to determine successful creation. The torso can be any shape and may have a head at no additional cost.

The Creature also has internal organs and a way to breathe in a manner chosen at the time of creation (generally air or water, in which case it gains the aquatic subtype). A Created Creature without eyes is blind, and a Creature without a mouth cannot speak. A Creature without limbs or tentacles has a land speed of 10ft, otherwise treat the Created creature’s base land speed as 20ft before applying other modifiers (the fact it will likely possess two legs increases the land speed to 30ft for most bipedal Creatures). Creatures with no intelligence score are mindless. Note that most Creature types must eat, so a Creature that is not given a way to nourish itself will starve (what it eats is chosen on creation within limits of what is possible for the Creature). The Created Creature is infertile. The Creatures’ age categories are either the same as a race of your choice or the Creature may instead be unageing for +5 points. A Creature of intelligence 3 or higher understands a single language of your choice.

You do not control the actions of the Created Creature, although nothing stops you from creating an initial personality that wants to serve you (see Mental-lords’ unity for more information). During creation you may spend Graft points to add any number of features and/or magic items (and potently evolutions) to a Creature just as you would when designing a graft, and these become natural parts of the Creatures’ anatomy, making up the basic appearance and form of the Creature, as well as that of any offspring it may produce. The graft point cost for any features and augmentations contained within the Creature is increased by five times its base cost, and magic items have their base cost tripled (for a net cost of x5 for features and augmentations, and x3 for magic items). The Creature counts as a single graft for the purposes of stacking features and such.

Augments:
Enhanced Potential: Cost 10

The creature receives a +2 racial bonus to a single ability score.

Special: You can apply this augment to the same Creature multiple times, giving the Creature an additional +2 to an ability score. This can either be the same ability score, in which case the cost becomes cumulative with the previous applications (so for +2 is 10 points, a total of +4 is 30, and +10 is 150, etc.), or to a different one.


Decreased Potential: Cost -5

The creature receives a -2 racial penalty to a single ability score.

Special: You can apply this augment to the same Creature multiple times. You cannot apply this augment if doing so would reduce one of the entity's ability scores to 0 or less, except for intelligence where it instead makes the Creature mindless upon reaching zero.


Advanced Form: Cost 25

The creature gains an additional racial HD, possibly granting it additional feats/skills/etc.

Special: You can apply this augment to the same Creature multiple times. The price doubles per additional racial HD (e.g. 25, 50, 100, 200, etc.)


Transient Skill: Cost 100

The creature gains a level in a class of your choice.

Special: You can apply this augment to the same Creature multiple times. Applying this augment more than once doubles the cost each time, resulting in the following costs: 100, 200, 400, etc.


Hidden Power: Cost 10

The Creature can conceal and/or release one or more of the features it was given during creation as a swift action. This is an extraordinary ability. Each purchase of this augment effect a single such feature (and associated augmentations) the Creature naturally possesses, and it may be purchased additional times. You may place additional restrictions on this ability, such as a Creature that can only use its tentacles at night.


Cascade of Life: cost (varies, see below)

This augmentation costs the same amount as half the Created Creatures graft point cost without this augment
The Creature is capable of reproduction. The creature is chosen by you to be either male or female, and can breed with any suitably gendered Creature that possesses an identical construction (e.g the grafts used to create it) to itself. Reproduction takes an equal length of time as that of the race used for its age categories.

For +50 points the created Creature may gain the ability to reproduce with a specific type of creature (or specific subtype in the case of Humanoids and Outsiders) within one size category and of the same type. The offspring will always breed true, sharing the characteristics of the Created Creature.

Additional should you possess the ‘Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration’ Excellency you may add the Modified Gestation and/or Modified Development augment for five times the price.

You may choose the favored classes, general alignment trends (such as "Always Chaotic Neutral"), starting language, etc of the race.
Unageing Creatures may note take this augment.


To create a Creature takes a number of hours equal to the total points used to produce the Creature divided by 50 (rounding up), so for example for a Creature that costs a total of 800 points it would take 16 hours. After this time you need to check whether the creation was successful, resulting needing a heal check with a DC of 20, + the total HD of the Creature, + 1/2 the CL of the magic items added to its constituent grafts. On a failed check you are refunded all but 20% of the points.


Advanced Manifestations
Flesh-Altering Master
You may now spend graft points to add subtypes to your Creatures. A subtype with no mechanical effect costs twenty points. One that grants minor mechanical benefits or those offset by some disadvantage costs around fifty points (e.g. fire, evil, ect). Subtypes that grant a comparatively large benefit cost up to one-hundred points. At GM determination some subtypes may have a higher than ordinary cost,
at around a price range of 20-100 point for a subtype.

Man-is-Monster Restoration
You can harness the collective strings of the kyniteros to repair and replace the shattered body of the fallen. To do this you make a Heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (up to a max. of + 10 to the DC, or if the target is dead), +1 per day the creature is dead. You may take twenty on this check. You can only try this check until the corpse has a least sufficient material to create a zombie from. The Heal check takes one hour.

If you succeed the Heal check you harvest the mind of the creature and salvage the majority of the body. the creature has a 50% chance of losing 1d4 limbs (randomly either left arm, right arm, left leg, and/or right leg, adjusting for non-humanoid body forms), as well as having a 50% chance of losing any of their racial traits, other than statistic modifiers, size, languages, type (but not subtype), and movement speeds. Following this each of the creatures’ ability scores are permanently reduced by 1d6-2 (to a minimum loss of 0, with creatures who become intelligence zero becoming mindless). Once this is done you may build the creature a new body by immediately adding any number of features and/or magic items (and potently evolutions) to the target of this manifestation , as per creating a Creature with this Mythos, but with only the half the normal points cost, finally you may add any of the augments of the ‘Created Creature’ feature to the target but without access to the ‘Transient Skill’ augment, and who thereafter is considered a creature you have made, but retaining their own mind and without need for another Heal check for determining successful creation.

After this is done, the creature may continue to act normally from this point onwards, essentially the creature has a new body similar to as if they were brought back to life with the reincarnate spell with their new Racial traits being those of the body along with whatever they retained for their old form. If the creature is no longer capable of pursuing its previous class or lifestyle they are advised to multiclass or find a new one, e.g. if you made them into a quadruped or something resembling a tree for some reason. The new body is so different, freakish or repugnant that when compared to their previous one, they are unrecognizable, but otherwise lacks any mechanical effects.

Should the creature be dead and their soul is not able to inhabit the repaired body or somehow trapped (and only if prevented, if it is free to enter the body then it must, willing or not) the body successfully animates, but it lacks the consciousness of the original creature, who begins inhabit the body automatically should they become free to do so. If it lacks the consciousness, it is considered mindless and functions according to base impulses related to the original creature.

Paralytic Barb
Perquisite: -
Why do they flee? You just want to make them whole. Make them better. Make them more. Yet still they run, but they will not stand in your way, you will experiment, and harness, and restore, and you will be whole again.

You choose a single arm, or similar prehensile limb such as a tail, and a part of which then grows into a sharp, if small, blade (this usually develops from the middle finger of a hand, which grows an inch or two and fuses with the nail). In other limbs it is usually a stinger on the tip of the limb, like that of a wasp or scorpion).

This blade functions as a secondary sting natural attack that deals 1d3 damage, and that inflicts the following poison on a successful hit.

Barb Venom:
Type: injury DC: as normal for Mythos abilities
Initial and secondary damage: D2 DEX

Barb Venom triggers its secondary damage on the round following the initial damage and again each round for five rounds. Should the target pass two of the saves the poison ceases its effects.

When a creature is reduced to zero dexterity by this poison they also become Unconscious from this poison for one hour; with additional doses resetting the duration should the target fail another save.

Should the limb the sting is attached to be removed, you may regrow it over 24 hours on a different applicable limb, or, should the original limb be replaced with a different limb (likely with a graft), it mutates over an hour to regrow the stinger. You are immune to your own poison

Basic Manifestations
Virulent Venom
Your venom now lasts for two additional rounds. You may take this manifestation multiple times with the expenditure of Mythos points, with its effects stacking, up to a maximum of 10 minutes of total time poisoning.

Potent Venom
Your venom’s dexterity damage increases by a die step and its DC increases by +1. You may take this manifestation multiple times expenditure of Mythos points, with its effects stacking up to a maximum of d12 DEX damage.

Weakening Venom
Your venom now deals d2 strength damage during the initial damage in addition to dexterity damage. You may take this manifestation multiple times expenditure of Mythos points, each time the STR damage increases by a die step to a maximum of d12 STR damage.

Secrete Venom
Any slashing or piercing weapon you wield in the limb containing the sting weapon may automatically be coated with the poison as a free action.

Venom Squirt
You gain the ability to project your venom over short distances. You may, as a standard action, spray your venom in one of the following manners. Either option may only be used once every d3 rounds, sharing a cooldown.
• It may be sprayed as a 30ft cone, in which case the DC is reduced by three and the damage is reduced by two die steps (minimum one point of DEX damage).
• Or it may be fired directly as a ranged touch attack with a 10ft range increment.
In either case the target(s) hit by the venom be wearing armor that entirely covers their body (including the face), they are unaffected by the poison. Additionally your venom now permanently becomes a contact poison.

True Surgeon’s Skill
Perquisite: -

For the Kyniteros to return its power must not just be removed from its vessels but also must be implanted into the Kreikiri. They need to slice and tear the flesh of others to restore themselves. This manifests as previously unknown anatomical knowledge, and despite Kyniteros not being associated with the healing arts, it must grant this knowledge to the Kreikiri for its recreation to be successful and so this new Mythos came of the tales of its avatar.

This Mythos grants Skill Focus (Heal) as a bonus feat.

For manifestations of this Mythos that require a Heal check, you may take twenty on these checks.

Basic Manifestations:
Curing-Surgeons-Blade
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention on a creature to attempt to cure them of one disease or poison of your choice that you have identified the target as suffering from. Once you have performed the minutes medical attention you make a heal check with a DC equal to the DC of the disease or poison +3. On a successful check the disease or poison is cured.
Should this heal check fail the creature cannot be the target of this manifestation for 24 hours.

Weakness-Salving Flesh-Restoration
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention on a creature to attempt to cure them of ability score damage. Once you have performed the minutes medical attention you make a heal check with a DC of 13+1/2 the HD of the creature who caused the damage. Success removes an amount of ability damage to a single ability score equal to the Kreikiris wisdom modifier.
Should this heal check fail the creature cannot be the target of this manifestation for 24 hours.

Wound-Closing Restoration
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check to remove hit point damage with a DC of 15. For every point you pass by you restore one point of damage, or two points of nonlethal damage, in any combination.
Should this heal check fail the creature cannot be the target of this manifestation for 24 hours.

Advanced Manifestations:
Flesh Reknitting Mastery
Perquisite: Wound-Closing Restoration
You may now use Wound-closing restoration as a standard action, which provokes attacks of opportunity, and has any bleed damage they are suffering from at this time stop.

Additionally by holding a creatures severed body part to the stump you may reattach it and return it to full functionality as a full round action. The limb must not have been severed for longer than an hour to be reattached.

Curse-breaking hand
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check to remove a single curse form a creature. The DC to remove such an effect is 15 +half the CL of the effect, + the casting stat of the caster (if any).

Should this heal check fail the creature cannot be the target of this manifestation for 24 hours.

Power-Restoring-Touch
Perquisite: Weakness-Salving-Flesh-Restoration
When using Weakness-Salving-Flesh-Restoration you may have it take an hour instead of a minute to use and increase the DC by +3. Should you do so it may restore ability drain as well as ability damage.

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-06, 08:35 PM
Kreikiri Fantastic Mythos

Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis {Splintered}
Perquisite: Monster-making beast-lord
The Kyniteros is slowly waking within you. It is pushing at your senses, urging you to cast of this weak shell of meat to advance beyond, into true glory. But where to begin? There are so may possibilities but all so limited. You are not enough, yet are too much to risk upon a path of degradation. So you build a second vessel, less connected to the kyiteros, but one to see how you could evolve. And in this you see potential…

This Mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level -2 as your Druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a Creature for free with ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level -2. Unlike normal animal companions this Creature may be of a type other than animal (selected on creation), but uses the HD, saving throws, BAB, and other such leveling-based progression as normal for its type instead of the animal type. It has the Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Dex Bonus, Bonus Tricks (if of animal intelligence), and Special abilities of an animal companion of a Druid equal to your Kreikiri level. Some types incur a cost in order to select them, as shown on the table below:



Type
Cost


Vermin, Aberration, Animal, Humanoid, Giant
0


Magical Beast, Monstrous Humanoid, Fey
15


Dragon, Outsider, Plant
40


Ooze, Elemental
60


Undead, Construct
80



Additionally animal companions of the Vermin or Ooze type lose their immunity to mind effecting effects if they possess an intelligence score. Ooze animal companions also gain 60ft of blindsight at no additional cost. An animal companion with intelligence three or higher is fully sapient.

You have a number of points to create it with equal to your Kreikiri levelx25+15 and it is automatically considered unageing at no additional cost. You may re-create this animal companion every time you increase a level. This Creature may have an extra graft attached to it at a single time than is normal for its HD. This Creature is otherwise treated as a normal animal companion in all respects. Unlike other Created Creatures the animal companion may not take the Advanced Form or Transient Skill augments.

Should this animal companion be destroyed it can be replaced through the expenditure of a number of graft points equal to the amount it cost to create and three hours of work.

Advanced Manifestations:
Continued Experimentation
Your animal companion may now have an additional number of grafts attached at a single time equal to 2 +1 per four Kreikiri levels you possess.

Might Imbuing Structure
During construction the Kreikiri may convert one of their animal companion’s HD into a level of a class level of choice at the cost of 25 Graft points. This option may be chosen multiple times with the cost doubling for each additional HD converted (25 for the first, 50 for the second, 100 for the third, 200 fourth, etc). Any requirements for these class levels (in the case of PRC's and such) must be met by the Creature before they can be selected. The costs for this option must be paid from the Kreikiri's Graft point reserve, not with the points provided by this Mythos.

Re-Genesis Gambit
Should you die you gain the ability to be reborn through the body of your animal companion. Upon your death your animal companion may gain points as per your ‘Limb-shredding graft-taker’ Mythos, but cannot spend them or use the Mythos in any other way. This represents the companion consuming mass from the harvested creatures. It does not possess any points you have. Once it has an amount equal to 20 points per character level you possess, your character (but not any equipment you had) is regurgitated by the creature (or if is too small some similar process is done instead, for example it could regurgitate a thick pulp and shape it into your body not unlike a wasp making a nest). Your character only retains grafts if their full value in points is also used in your regrowth. Your animal companion may consume themselves to add their value in points (including grafts) to your regrowth. Should this be the case, your animal companion is destroyed in the process, and it takes double the cost to create a new one the next time you do so.

Bestial Shredding-Blur
The Kyniteros constantly strived to grow against its limits, always looking for more. It could break its limitations and continue its eternal quest.

You gain the ability to make iterative attacks with your natural attacks, at the cost of taking a penalty on all attack rolls equal to double the amount of extra attacks per natural attack. This is in addition to the normal reduction on attack rolls with iterative attacks. For example a lv 8 Kreikiri with two claw attacks could make a second with both claws (so four attacks total), resulting in a net bonus on attack rolls of (before other modifiers) +4/+4/-1/-1

Advanced Manifestations:
Many-Toothed Whirlwind
You gain Multiweapon Fighting and Multiattack as bonus feats. In audition you no longer have to meet the dexterity prerequisite for Improved and Greater Two Weapon Fighting.

Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery {Whole}
Perquisites: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

The Kyniteros was not bound by piecing itself out of harvested flesh, it was able to manifest its power at a moment’s notice, unbound by form.

This Mythos grants the Kreikiri the ability to store a number of grafts internally and withdraw them into itself.

This functions by allowing you to, when creating a graft, elect to ‘Internalize’ it is you wish. Should you do so you automatically attach it without a roll, and it takes eight hours of concentration to create the graft, additionally it is forever unavailable to you or anyone else outside of the effects of this Mythos once internalized. You may store a number of grafts equal to half your Kreikiri level and each may cost no more than 10 points per Kreikiri level you possess to construct. You may swap, retract or equip one of your internalized grafts as a full round action. You must supply the points to produce the grafts yourself, and must not have one of your internalized grafts equipped to equip another one. You may destroy a single internalized graft in order to empty the space it takes up in this Mythos as a free action. An internalized graft does not take up any of your graft slots.

Advanced Manifestations:
Adaptive Arsenal
Whenever you swap your internalized grafts you may equip two at a single time rather than one.

[I]Quick Mutation[I]
You may now swap between internalized grafts as a swift action.

Lord of the Warped
Perquisite: -

As a standard action you may force your will on a being with grafts or a Created Creature, with a range of 60ft. In either case there are two options available. In any case the target gains a will save to resist.

On creatures with grafts you may use either of the following options:

• Suppress one of the creatures grafts for 1d4+1 rounds. A graft that is suppressed becomes unavailable to the creature to which it is attached, including as a limb or other body part. This effect may be applied to the same creature multiple times, stacking the duration. Should a graft become suppressed for over a minute, the Kreikiri may immediately choose for it to crumble to dust and be destroyed.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to the number of grafts they possess.


On Created Creatures you may use either of the following options:
• You may cause the creatures body to come undone, flaking apart into its component parts, dealing 1d4 damage per Kreikiri level you possess, which ignores any DR it may possess. The Kreikiri may choose to use less damage dice than their level would allow.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to half your Kreikiri level for a minute. Multiple uses of this ability on the same Creature causes the duration to stack, the penalties however do not.

In any case Kreikiri are immune to all effects of this mythos.

Advanced manifestations:
Break the construed mind
Perquisite: Mental-Lords’ Unity (Mind-Warping Restructuring)

As a Standard action the Kreikiri may select a creature within 60ft that has a condition from ‘Mind-Warping Restructuring’. This creature then has the Condition activate as normal with the duration unchanged.

Rule the Wrought
Perquisite: Lord of the Warped (Break the construed mind)
When using Break the construed mind, you may select a number of creatures equal to your Kreikiri level instead of only one.

Horror Raising Mutant Master {Splintered}
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker
Every 24 hours you gain a graft point, as per those of Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker. Additionally you may spend 10 Mythos points in order to gain a graft point.

Advanced Manifestations
Endless Meat
Whenever you gain a graft point with this Mythos you gain an additional one, not counting those gained through this manifestation or by spending Mythos points. You may purchase this manifestation multiple times, its effects stacking each time.

Flesh Flowing Like the Tide
Whenever you create a graft, harvest graft points or create a creature with Monster-making beast-lord the actions only take a full round action.

Mental-Lords’ Unity {Splintered}
Perquisite: -

The dispersed shards of the Kyniteros are converging. Its rebuilt servants need to be unified. They need control. And so the Kreikiri may now infuse a number of driving instincts to its creations to ensure control.

With this Mythos the Kreikiri gains the ability to add a number of ‘instincts’ to a graft or Created Creature, should you have the appropriate Mythos to create them. An instinct is a distinct variety of mental ‘programming’ that forms a command that the Creature with it will usually follow unerringly as part of its natural disposition.

The exact specifics vary depending weather the target of this Mythos is a graft or a Creature you have created:

Grafts:

You may add a single instinct to a graft, the instinct effects the Creature the graft is implanted into. When a Creature with an instinct from a graft possesses an Intelligence score of 3 or higher, they may use a standard action to attempt to resist the instinct.

When the Creature attempts to resist the instinct they take a will save. Success means that they can act without regard to the instinct for a number of rounds (not counting the current round) equal to their Wisdom bonus (min. 1). If the Creature fails the Will save then they must follow the Instinct for the next minute, during which time they are unable to make further attempts to resist the instinct. Each identical instinct the Creature possesses (i.e. from implanting additional grafts with the same instinct) increases the DC of the save to resist an instinct by +2.

A subject forced to take actions against its nature (a parent about to kill its offspring, a Drow forced to protect an Elf village) receives an immediate saving throw to resist with a +2 bonus without having to use an action. If this occurs within a minute of a previously failed Will save against the instinct then no save is allowed, as per above. Subjects are aware of this and can make choices accordingly.

Creature:
You may add up to a number of instincts equal to ¼ of your Kreikiri level. These are added during construction and may not be changed later. The instincts serve in part form the core of the personality and temperament of the Creature and, should they breed, their offspring.

To determine the specifics of an instinct you may choose a sentence of up to ten words. Examples include ‘follow {name}’s orders’, ‘kill everything that you see’, or ‘guard here from intruders’, and that becomes an order the creature obeys. Creatures may (consciously or not) obey instincts literally or as according to loopholes in the wording of an instinct, or otherwise in a manner that is valid to the instruction but not as intended.

Should instincts directly conflict with each other (eg, when a Creature with the instincts 'Kill anyone who enters the room' and 'Obey your master' is told by their master not to attack someone who enters the room) the Creature is left in a state of non-magical Confusion (as per the spell, with no save allowed) until the conflict is removed. On a confusion result of 'Acts normally' the instinct it obeys it is randomly selected.

Each instinct costs 50 graft points to add to a graft, and 150 to add to a Creature. Each instinct attached to a graft/Creature adds +1 to the implantation/creation DC (as appropriate), instead of the normal increase the graft point cost would cause.

Basic Manifestations
Mind-Warping Restructuring
When adding instincts to a graft or Creature, you may pay 30 graft points to add a condition from the following list that applies to the Creature.
Conditions:
Blinded
Confused
Cowering
Dazed
Dazzled
Deafened
Exhausted
Fatigued
Frightened,
Nauseated
Panicked
Paralyzed
Shaken
Sickened
Unconscious

The condition comes into effect when a particular ‘trigger’ is performed. A trigger can be any single specific circumstance (selected when this manifestation’s effects are used) you desire. Example triggers could include ‘attacks master’, ‘at night’, ‘below half hit points’, or ‘on hearing the word for {word} in {language}).

After the trigger is selected the effects duration must be chosen, from the following list: 1 round, 1 minute, 5 minutes, 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 1 hour. This is how long the condition applies for.
An example of this in use is below:

When Creating a Creature, a Kreikiri pays 50 graft points to give a creature the instinct of 'Kill anyone who enters the room' and then, using this Manifestation, pays 30 graft points to add the condition of ‘Unconscious’ with the trigger of ‘attacks master’ and duration of ‘1 minute’. The result is that when the Creature is Created, should it attack the Kreikiri, it falls Unconscious for a minute.

When a Creature affected by a condition from this Manifestation it immediately knows what caused the condition, as well as feeling extremely unpleasant for the duration for the condition. This results in the creature likely being discouraged from preforming this action again unless it was forced to do so form an instinct.

The effects of this manifestation may be applied once per instinct.

Illusionary Land-Realignment
With this Manifestation, when adding instincts to a graft or Creature you may, instead of an instinct that issues an ‘order’ of some nature; instead create an instinct that alters the creatures’ perception is some manner. Example instincts this allows you to create include: ‘Cannot sense creatures displaying the seal of {organisation}’, ‘cannot detect the exits of the structure it inhabits’, or ‘sees all creatures as {monster type}, apart for {individual or type of creature}. The alteration to perception must be expressed within ten words or less.

No matter the evidence otherwise; a creature will believe the conditions of an instinct over any rationality, it will never regard creatures it cannot detect, it will never use an exit it cannot perceive, it will treat any false structures it sees as real, etc.

in the case of structures, if it cannot physically do what the fake structures around it would suggest, the creatures mind imitates what should happen, e.g. if a fake door is opened, and the area behind it appears to the creature as a passage, but is actually a blank wall, the creature will believe itself to actually be traveling through that passage (or if it possesses some ability to do so, it may carve out an actual passage through the wall with claws, tools, or such, believing the time it takes digging is just it clearing the passage or unsteady footing).

These instincts still otherwise function as normal instincts

Organ-Tearing Freakish-Overlord {Splintered}
Perquisites: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

In those ancient days, it was unbound by form. It sought to grow, so did the Kyniteros, but then it fell. Now its mortal vessel has begun to make it whole again. But, as this weak flesh shall learn, that was only the beginning…

This Mythos expands your options when using Limb-shredding graft-taker to create a graft or creature, depending on the manifestations chosen. Additionally this Mythos allows you to equip one additional graft to yourself at any one time.

Basic Manifestations
Matter Mastering All-Surgeon
When harvesting graft points and you may now extract graft points from any creature despite their bodies’ composition.

Lord of Warped Flesh
You gain access to features and augments available through any Ozodrin prestige class (e.g. Menacing Manor, or the Esoteric Features), apart from those of epic level prestige classes. For the purposes of Menacing Manor features you may designate an area as your building plot (see Menacing Manor) by exchanging a Stomach feature(s) with the square feet of building plot available equal to twice the number of small sized creatures that can fit in the stomach(s) exchanged. The building plot otherwise follows the normal rules.

Trophy of Worldly Champions
You may access the mutations list of any mutations that require feats to acquire (such as the plant mutator line) for the purposes of the Stable-Implement-of-Empowerment Manifestation.

Eldritch Living-Weapon
Magic items attached to a graft have their cost halved.

Power-Stealing Aberrant-Liege {Whole}
Perquisites: -

The Kyniteros sought perfection. It sought that belonged to others, the power to pass beyond death. The power to move mountains. The power to bend the very earth to your whim. And today the Kyniteros has awoken. The Kreikiri walks the earth. And it sees its prey, reborn anew, as it was. And this time it will not be stopped. This grants the Kreikiri the ability to drain the power of the legends of the other beings that walked in the day of the Kyniteros.

To do this you, as a standard action, make either a melee touch attack that deals no damage or a single normal attack with the weapon you have affected with the Meat-Shearing Butchers-Scalpel (or one of the natural attack(s) it can be converted into, should it be in that form) Mythos should you have it. should this attack roll hit, it means the target must take a Will save, and by every point they fail by they lose an equal amount of Mythos points, up to the amount they have, and you gain an equal amount as to what they lost. If you hit you are also granted knowledge of weather the target has any Mythos-based abilities from a class.

Creatures that have been effected by an effect that empowers someone using a Mythos are classed as having an amount of Mythos points equal to 1/5th of the amount of Mythos points it would cost to purchase the Mythos used, unless some other points-based medium is used in the Mythos, using 1/5 the value of points used instead, e.g. a creature with a Kreikiri–granted graft counts as having an amount equal to 1/5 the amount of points used to make the graft. Once all the equivalent amount of MP possessed by the target is drained by the effects of this Mythos, the target loses the benefit from the Mythos they were effected by, their effects dissipating in an appropriate manner (e.g. A graft would crumble to dust.) the creature benefiting from the Mythos can still otherwise be re-effected by it to once again gain its benefits, but you can no longer gain Mythos points from draining that target of its effective Mythos points from being effected by a Mythos (Feast of Mortal Flesh still allows you to gain Mythos points from the target however, as described in its effects).

In the use of this Mythos, the Kreikiri is scraping off a piece of their essence and consuming it, inflicting a nigh-incomprehensible spiritual agony. The continued use of this Mythos on someone is equivalent to torture and will have a suitable effect on the targets disposition towards the Kreikiri.

Advanced Manifestations
Legend-Burnout Ash Harvester
Whenever you use this Mythos and the target has no Mythos points but who possesses the capacity to gain Mythos points, they instead loose hit points equal to the amount of Mythos points they would have lost. A target killed by this effect is reduced to dust, and so is unsuitable for harvesting, resurrection and other such effects that would require a body. You may only ever gain a number of Mythos points in this way from a single target equal to their maximum HP, and do not gain any points from temporary HP.

Leach of Legends
Now whenever you gain Mythos points from this ability the amount you gain is multiplied by 5, and so is the amount the target loses.

Feast of Mortal Flesh (requires Legend-Burnout Ash Harvester)
You may now use this Mythos on beings without any Mythos abilities whatsoever, draining their HP as per Legend-Burnout Ash Harvester.

Repel the Traitorous

Using a standard action to may create an aura around yourself that repels creature that would use your gifts against you. Maintaining this aura requires a swift action per round.

The aura has a 10ft radius and prevents hostile creatures that possess grafts or are created creatures may not enter or move within this aura unless they pass a will save. Additionally they may not attack you unless they make this save.

Repel the traitorous

Using a standard action to may create an aura around yourself that repels creature that would use your gifts against you. Maintaining this aura requires a swift action per round.

The aura has a 10ft radius and prevents hostile creatures that possess grafts or are created creatures may not enter or move within this aura unless they pass a will save. Additionally they may not attack you unless they make this save.

Singularity of Life
Perquisites: Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master), Symbiotic Creature

This Mythos unlocks additional Augments for the ‘Symbiotic Creature’ Feature.

Meat Suit Cost 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.
When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the Symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the Symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the Symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are determined using the higher of the Hosts or the Symbionts, use the higher of the hosts or the Symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the Symbiont’s creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the Symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers from the Meat Suit, and ignoring ‘must be taken at 1st level’ prerequisites).

As long as the Symbiont has one or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than one hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features, feats, etc., sharing uses per day.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated, the Symbiont can make a Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow itself to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours).

Parasite: Cost: 20
The Symbiont’s Ego score increases by +2. Additionally when attached to a host and in control after a personality conflict, it may restore up to a number of hit points to itself equal to it’s HD as a free action, but only once per round. Doing this deals an equal number of points of damage to the host. Ability damage may also be removed instead of healing, with each point of such damage dealing ten HP of damage to the host.

Stitched Nightmare
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

The Kyniteros was unbound in form, it was an exemplar of atavistic greed, not only desiring power but able to take it. What are you doing? Roaming around in this pathetic meat suit? Yes you made it better, and perfection is starting to leek its way out, but the Kyniteros was never meant to be constrained by this retch. It needs a worthy vessel to herald its rebirth. You have to fix it. You have a plan, to replace weak flesh with ancient might.

You may now, at any time, spend 50 graft points to perform a permanent, one-time, surgical procedure on yourself that twists your body into something superior to what you were before; this horribly mutilates and twists your prior appearance causing you to take a -10 penalty on disguise checks without magical aid (e.g. any spell or effect that duplicates Disguise Self or otherwise causes you to take on a full-body transformation to mimic a different creature). The benefits of this transformation are that you gain any three mutations (as per an Evolutionist but ignoring mutator level limitations and not counting towards the limit of the number of times you may possess that mutation) and a single option form the following list: (movement speeds grant limbs and structures required for their use, with specifics chosen by the you, e.g. fly speed could grant wings, or give you an internal gas filled organ among other possible manifestations of it.)
• Gain fast healing 1
• Gain 30ft burrow speed
• Gain 30ft fly speed (average)
• Gain 30ft climb speed
• Gain +2 natural armor
• Gain a single natural attack that deals 2d4 damage for a medium kreikiri, which is always considered
primary, as well as the limbs required to utilize the attack should you need them.
• Gain an elemental subtype of your choice.
• Gain a bonus feat of your choice

Additionally you stop ageing and remove any previous ageing penalties, but continue to accrue any bonuses. Additionally you no longer need to eat or drink, and now only need to rest for half as long as is normal, e.g effects that require eight hours to recharge now only need four.

Should you ever be subject to an effect that would permanently change your original form (e.g. a Reincarnation spell or Baleful Polymorph, the effects of this Mythos and the physical changes it caused in you carry over into the new form) for example if a Human Kreikiri with this Mythos was reincarnated into an Orc, they would have the body of an Orc with the same physical alterations as from this Mythos (which likely could mean that the change in race is near unnoticeable due to how much the altered body could diverge from the original).

Storm-of-Cuts Life Altering Flurry {Splintered}
Perquisites: Monster-Making Beast-Lord

Ironic isn’t it? How the world teams with your spoils. And how the ungrateful masses all strive to use your stolen gifts against you. The wild animal hunting with tooth and claw. The human bandit who uses your stolen adaptability to try to take an advantage against you. The angry mob so resistant in your attempt to reclaim your spoils and make them whole. But, thinking of this, you realize something. The echoes of you, of the Kyniteros, in them are, ultimately, you. And why are you attacking yourself? And so decided that, if you must, you will need to give these rebellious threads something of an… attitude adjustment.

This Mythos allows you to use the ‘Limb-shredding graft-taker’ Mythos on a non-willing creature. To do this you announce that you are using this Mythos before making a full attack action. With this Mythos you make the attack(s) as normal, adding your wisdom modifier in addition to your strength modifier for damage purposes, but always dealing nonleathal damage, up to a maximum amount of such damage equal to their maximum HP (and thus sufficient to leave them unconscious).

In a flurry of cutting, stitching and grafting, you may immediately create any number of grafts that are all immediately attached to the target with no checks required, up to the normal limit on grafts for the target. You can spend up to a number of points on graft production equal to the damage dealt.

Should the creature be given grafts containing instincts from the ‘Mental-Lords’ unity’ Mythos, the creature takes a -1 penalty on the save for each individual feature type attached to the creature.

After the grafts are attached, the target must pass a will save or be subject to an effect identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you subtract a number of rounds duration up to the victims wisdom modifier (note that a negative wisdom modifier will result in a longer duration), and you may use the Handle Animal skill to "Handle" them to perform a task if you share a language, and to “Push” them if you do not, as if they were an Animal (as per the skill). The effect of the Confusion is suspended while performing such a task and its duration continues to decrease.

Should this creature fail the will save against the Confusion and stay in your possession (which for this Mythos’s purposes is anything that involves intentionally working towards your desires or spending a significant time around you) they begin taking d3 Intelligence drain per day, even if immune, that can only be cured through a wish or miracle. Once the creatures Intelligence becomes zero it is replaced with ‘-‘ and the mindless special quality, but retaining any feats it has, and skill ranks are modified as if the creature had an Intelligence of 1 (but due to being mindless, it cannot use Intelligence based skills).

Once the creature becomes mindless it is also driven into a feral state in which it will violently lash out at anything animate around it that is not itself another creature in this state, including the Kreikiri who caused its suffering. Mindless creatures created in this way can still be 'Pushed' (as per the Handle Animal skill, regardless of creature type) by the Kreikiri who initiated this Mythos at any time, and it can be applied to multiple creatures in the same area (so long as the Kreikiri can be perceived). These mindless creatures, being Mindless, have trouble focusing on a task for long.

Pushing such a creature to preform any trick other than 'Attack' will only work for 1d3 rounds before the creature forgets what it was doing and seeks something to maul (including the Kreikiri). Even the 'Attack' trick will only hold the creatures attention until its current target is incapacitated, after which it will attack those who have injured it/are closest (again, including the Kreikiri). The duration of the creatures attention is not known by the Kreikiri. Further successful attempts to push the creature reset the duration of the control.

You may allow a creature to be left with an Intelligence score by paying Mythos points equal to 150 per point of Intelligence you desire a creature to have (up to their starting level), for example 150 for an Intelligence of 1, or 1500 for an Intelligence of 10, etc.

Once a creature whom you spent Mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it becomes treated as a created creature for the purposes of instincts from Mental-lords’ unity, and instances of Mental-Lords’ Unity Mythos added during Storm-of-Cuts Life Altering Flurry do not count toward the maximum that can be applied to a Created Creature. Additionally you may continue to "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type.

No matter the Creatures final Intelligence score, once it ceases taking Intelligence drain it is treated as a creature you created for being released for Mythos points.

Symbiotic Creature
Perquisite: Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)

This Mythos unlocks the new ‘Symbiotic Creature’ Feature for Created Creatures.
Symbiotic creature
This Feature is available to Created Creatures with the Symbiont subtype only (see Fiend Folio p.215). A Creature with this feature may select any of its Features, Augments and/or Evolutions; these selected traits become classified as Symbiotic Traits. These traits are still considered and treated as the type of trait they normally are for all purposes, including limitations on the total number of times it can be selected (for example, a Symbiont created by a 5th level Kreikiri with Stable Implement of Empowerment can select the Fast Healing mutation a maximum of twice, making one, none, or both into Symbiotic Traits, while any not Symbiotic would apply to the Symbiont itself), the classification only has an effect within the effects of this Feature. The graft point cost of any Symbiotic Traits when creating the creature is reduced by -1, to a minimum of one point. When attached to a host, by the Creature taking a full-round action, the Creature fills a single magic item slot (which one is chosen by the Kreikiri upon creation). Any magic items placed in that slot have no effect.

Attaching to a creature is a full round action performed by the Symbiont, unattaching is also a full round action performed by the Symbiont. The Host may try to forcibly remove the Symbiont as a full round action, in which the host and Symbiont make an opposed grapple check, with the Symbiont calculating its bonus as if it was one size category larger than its host (it should be noted that when the Symbiont notices what its host is doing a personality conflict will likely immediately occur, forcing the host to make the save before the grapple check). If the host wins the check then they successfully pull out the Symbiont, dealing 1d4 constitution damage to themselves, and depositing the Creature into an adjacent space.

A Symbiotic Creature is unable to make use of any of its Symbiotic Traits, only providing them to an attached host as if they were grafts (the Augments of Features selected as Symbiotic Traits are similarly affected). While bound to a host the Symbiont is only able to take purely mental actions unless it can gain control of the host through a personality conflict (see Fiend Folio p.215).

A mindless Symbiont is incapable of taking mental actions (it is mindless), however, when it is in control it will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from ‘Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry’. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the Symbiont is in control. On creation the Symbiont automatically gains a single Character Trait (see Unearthed Arcana) that both they and their host benefits from, and that helps determine when a personality conflict would occur, e.g. an Aggressive Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host stopped attacking a still living foe, or a Cautious Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host rushed ahead without taking care for to spot traps.

A Symbiotic creatures' Ego score is only modified by special qualities and special attacks granted through Symbiotic Traits (as above), as well as increasing by +1 per class level the Symbiont possesses. A Symbiont created through this Mythos has its Ego score halved against anyone with levels in Kreikiri as it instinctively submits to even a shard of the Kyniteros.

Augments:
Universal Trait Cost 2
Select a single Feature, Augment, or Mutation that is a Symbiotic Trait. The Symbiont may benefit from it as it was not a Symbiotic Trait when not attached to a host. The trait selected cannot be one that requires activation or uses an action (so a Breath Weapon Mutation cannot be selected but a Flesh Feature or a Fast Healing Mutation can).

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-06, 08:37 PM
Kreikiri Legendary mythos

Disassociated Undying-Flesh {Splintered}
Perquisites: -

The kyniteros was tore apart, and yet did not die. Yes if you cut of the head, it will die, but all of it is a head, and a heart, and a brain. And as its existence as shattered shards prove, the kyniteros, had no physical need of its broken body, and as your every step, and every breath prove it will always join into an inevitable whole once more.

This mythos grants you immunity to bleed, paralysis and sleep effects, a permanent 50% chance to avoid critical hits and precision based effects (such as sneak attack), gain damage resistance of X/- (where X is your Kreikiri level) against nonlethal damage. And finally for no part of your body to be classed as vital, for example you are able to survive with a removed heart, head, lungs, brain, and such and you do not bleed out or suffer any other negative effects of a severed/broken arm, leg, head, except for that body part is now absent.

You retain consciousness and sensation (including pain and touch) throughout all parts of your body despite distance or damage. If you are rendered unconsciousness due to nonleathal damage or negative hit points you are still fully aware of your surroundings and can use manifestations of this mythos, but otherwise may not act. You can always sense the direction, but not the distance to any of your body parts.

Each severed body part is considered a separate creature identical to you in all ways but the following. It is usually two size classes smaller than you are (but may be smaller or larger by GM determination up to one size below yours), but does not receive statistic alterations. It has an amount of HP equal to (¼ your HD)d6 (e.g. at lv16 each 4d6 hp) and takes a -6 penalty on all attack rolls (should it actually structurally be capable of attacking, the body part must have a joint or some other method of movement to be able to attack and possesses a 5ft movement speed.

All your body parts share one set of actions, and so should you decide to move one (or more) using a move action another part may not make a charge in that round for example. Should you attack you must divide the attacks you would have if you were whole between your body parts and only the source of a natural attack may make that attack. For example if you make a full attack and have three normal attacks a claw attack, and a tail slap, and you are separated into two severed arms (one with a claw and one holding a shortsword), and the rest of your body with a graft granting a tail slap you would make a claw attack with that arm, however many attacks your BAB grants you with the arm holding the sword, and a single tail slap with the body. You may choose for a body part to not take part in an action. In the case of full attack actions all involved parts may target separate creatures. A part may, instead of an attack during a full attack, preform (or continue to take part in i.e when in a grapple) a special attack that can be performed as a standard action, such as a sunder or trip.

Should a part lack sufficient size/shape to perform an action it would be capable of when attacked to you (such as a single digit of an arm with a claw attack, or a length of arm form the elbow down preforming a grapple) iy may make such an action at the cost of an additional -5 penalty on attack rolls and all damage rolls being halved.

You may voluntarily detach a body part a a full round action, or as a move action. In the latter case you must pass a DC25 heal check or take 2d6 damage. A severed body part may be reattached to the relevant part as a full round action (for example a hand to an arm). You are not considered dead until all parts, no matter how small, of your body are.

Should your main body (as in the original part the severed parts originated from) be killed you may have a single separated body part attempt to regenerate (essentially resurrecting) the body. This is done by spending a number of graft points equal to 20 per character level you possess (the matter represented by the graft points is seemingly absorbed by the body part). Once the points are spent the part begins reforming your body over an hour, during which you are unconscious (as if by negative hit points). You are not restored with any grafts you possessed. In order to retain grafts you must spend a number of graft points equal to the grafts cost when you spend graft points to regenerate. Should you possess more than one separated body part only one may reform into your body.
Advanced manifestations

Mutagenic Mutilation (requires Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery)
When you have a body part severed from you, that part may (as a swift action) activate a single internalised mythos as per ‘Ever-shifting protean-mastery’ that no other body part (including your main body) has in use. Additionally any body part that has an internalised graft active may attack despite restrictions on how it could move or other such matters, as long as the graft it has allows it to attack in some manner. An example of this in use is that you could make a pair of wings to form from the nerves of a separated eye, and have it fly around should you possess an internalised graft that contains wings.

As a side effect of this manifestation is that your internal anatomy is rendered truly unnatural (or at least more so) for your race, appearing as (among other potential appearances): a mass of tendrils, an entirely solid black mass, or any other unnatural form. This means that it is immediately obvious to anyone that you are something different than a normal member of your race, as long as you are either significantly injured or under half your maximum HP.

Regenerative Restorations
Whenever you heal naturally you heal an additional two points of damage (hit point or Ability damage). Additionally you increase your rate of natural healing to 1/hour.

Additionally may choose to regrow any severed body part that is rendered unavailable to you. When you choose to do this the original part immediately withers and decays into a black sludge, and the body part begins regrowing, this takes 24 hours at which point the body part is nearly fully formed, but diminished in size, resulting in a regrowing arm being treated as a size lower than normal for all purposes related to this arm (e.g. the arm of a medium creature is considered that of a small creature). For a severed leg you reduce your movement speed by 10ft (per leg). otherwise the shrunken body part has no mechanical penalty. After 48 hours it has grew back to full size and function.

Division of Fragments
When you possess at least one dismembered body part, you may elect it to be effected by this manifestation as a free action on your next round, or as a swift action at a later point. You may have a number of such body parts at a single time equal to 1/4th of your Kreikiri level.

A body part effected by this mythos gains a +10ft movement speed, and 20ft blindsight. In addition these body parts gain a normal set of actions to themselves as an individual creature.

Creeping Flesh-Fortress {Whole}
Perquisites: Monster-making beast-lord

You are almost ready; someday soon the resurgent Kyniteros may yet hunt again. You have harvested enough of its might, coxed out from weak flesh, to begin the formation of a true avatar that shall usher in a golden age of perfection and unity of its scattered fragments. The final pieces will fall into place, just as soon as the world is consumed to make it whole.

As a full round action, you may spend 20 graft points to produce a ‘flesh node’ a small ball of unusual matter that is anchored to the ground by tendrils that is placed in an area within the Kreikiri’s reach. This node produces a thick carpet of material similar to strands of butchered or necrotic flesh over any surface it is on, including up walls and ceilings, known as your ‘web’ (which alongside your Flesh Nodes are referd to as your ‘Fleshscape’) that expands 5ft outwards in all directions per hour that the flesh node exists until the web covers a 50ft radius in all directions from its point of origin. Once it has expanded to this point it slows to spreading 5ft per day until it covers a 100ft area, then growth stops. You may concentrate as a full round action to grant yourself 5ft blindsense from everywhere your web grows, including across planes.

The Flesh Nodes themselves are Small Constructs that have 10hp/Kreikiri level (plus Construct bonus hp based on size, generally +10) that do not have any ability scores (and thus are Mindless), share the Kreikiri's bonus to saving throws acquired though their class levels, are considered to have HD equal to your Kreikiri level for any effect that requires it, have a hardness of 10, cannot be moved from where it was placed (immune to being Bull-Rushed, Dragged, etc., but not to offensive Teleportation), and cannot be harvested for Graft Points.

The Web may be destroyed through a sunder combat manoeuvre. The Web has 10hp/inch and a hardness of 5. Should a Flesh node be destroyed the Web they support (that within a 100ft area) will begin to deteriorate by having all squares of the material be destroyed at a rate of 1hp/minute to all squares within 5ft of the Nodes prior position, and then once they are destroyed, affecting all the squares within 5ft of those positions, and so on until all of the Web is entirely destroyed or the area overlaps that supported by another node. In addition to the above the Fleshscape possesses a vulnerability to fire. Each 5ft patch of Web can recover HP at the rate of 1/hour and that so long as there is an unbroken line of Web between a patch and any Node, no matter the distance, the Web will not decay. Every 5ft space containing Web is capable of providing sufficient food to provide sustenance to a single Medium sized creature for one day (despite the material being flesh it can support herbivores). A single patch can sustain double the number of creatures for each size they are below Medium. Double the number of patches needed to sustain a creature for each size greater than Medium.

By default the Web will spread across any solid surface it encounters, and has a default thickness of an inch where it has spread. It does not grow over creatures or objects, instead growing underneath them.

You can influence the Webs growth by spending a minute in concentration and choosing one of the following options:

• The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.

• May harden the Web, which increases its HP/inch to 30 and its hardness becomes 10, but prevents further growth from that point and it becomes unable to provide sustenance to creatures. This may also target a Flesh node, doubling its HP and increasing hardness to 15, but leaving it unable to support Web. This hardened material may be worked like metal and often resembles a carapace of some creature, bone, or similar form.

• May convert the Web into a transparent membrane, which can be seen through but prevents further growth from that point and it
becomes unable to provide sustenance to creatures.

• May alter a 5ft area of Web to contain a simple mechanism that allows for the opening or closing of a gap in the material. Possible
uses include creating doors, chests, windows, ect. These may only be opened or closed by you and those you choose to allow. Doing so is a mental action that uses up a swift action.

The time it takes for the effect to apply depends on the distance to the nearest Flesh Node. When influencing Web within 50ft of a Node the growth occurs in the same minute as the concentration. When influencing Web between 55ft and 100ft of a node each minute of concentration takes one hour to take effect (20 minutes of concentrating would require 20 hours to be finished). One cannot influence the growth of the Web further than 100ft from a Node. In any given use of this ability you may only affect a number of individual 5ft squares equal to your level but the same square may be affected more than once/use.

Advanced Manifestations:
Sentinels
When creating a Flesh Node you may design it as if it was a Creature but for 1/5th the normal cost (1/3 the cost for any abilities that duplicate magic items). It retains its type and you do not need to pay for creating a torso. The Advanced Form, Transient Skill, and Cascade of Life options are not available to Flesh Nodes. Ability scores are normal as per Created Creature and the Node shares the BAB of the Kreikiri.

The Node gains or loses HP(due to being a construct) based on size as per normal. Any feature added that provides a movement rate of any kind does not provide said movement, but can still use any other capabilities or be purely decorative. When the Kreikiri uses Blindsense on the Web they also have access to any sensory organs on any of the Flesh Nodes.

Commanding these Nodes is a free action used when concentrating to use your blindsense from the Web produced through this mythos.

Uneven Footing
The terrain that makes up the Fleshscape hampers the movement of those whose presence is unwanted. This reduces the base speed of all creatures other than you, Creatures you’ve created (through any means available to you) and those you specifically allow, by 10ft.

Everywhere at Once
When you are concentrating to benefit from your blindsence and within 5ft of a Flesh Node, you may transport yourself to any area adjacent to a Flesh Node, as a full round action.

Resistant Node
Your Fleshscape loses its vulnerability to fire, and gains +2 hardness.

Always Watching
You are now always considered to be concentrating on your web for the purpose of this mythos when it would benefit you (i.e your blindsense is always active and such).

Extrude Flesh
You may, as a full round action, choose to destroy a single 5ft cube of Web created by one of your nodes in order to gain two graft points per inch of thickness. You must be able to touch the material to do this.

Dominion of Air
Your flesh nodes may now produce particles that infest the air around them. This causes any area of open air area within a 50ft area of a flesh node to be treated as if it was part of the Fleshscape for the purposes of concentrating to gain blindsense from this mythos. Additionally the area causes any creature inside it to become fatigued until they spend an hour outside of the area after spending a minute inside, and lowers light levels by one step. These later effects do not affect creatures with a Kreikiri-granted graft, who are a Created Creature or that are a Kreikiri themselves.

Dominion of water
The Fleshcape may now emit particles into the surrounding water. Any 5ft square on the surface or bottom of a body of water, allows the entire 5ft area from the bottom to the surface of that water to be treated as if it was covered by Web for concentrating to gain blindsense (so you essentially gain a ‘pillar’ of blindsense within the water). Additionally you may now also influence a 5ft cube of Web to convert it into water. The water affected by this manifestation often takes on a black or blood red colouration.

Creatures with a Kreikiri-granted graft, who are a created creature or that are a Kreikiri themselves may drink from such water as a full round action to gain fast healing 1 for one round. This water is replenished from the surrounding Web. Should it be stored the water loses its healing capabilities.

Infectious Presence (requires Necrotic Meat-Mutation)
Your disease may be spread through the consumption of any part of the Fleshscape. Any creature that eats the material is exposed and must save against the disease.

Should you possess the dominion of air manifestation any creature within the vapour is exposed to the disease and must save again once/hour.

Should you possess the dominion of water manifestation any creature that drinks the water is exposed to the disease and infected creatures may benefit from the fast healing effect.

Eternal-Legends-Defeated Supremacy Returned {Whole}
Perquisite: Power-Stealing Aberrant-Liege (Legend-Burnout Ash Harvester)

When you gain this mythos you gain two empty ‘slots’, one for storing mythos and another for storing excellences. Whenever you kill a creature with ‘Power-stealing aberrant-liege’ and that creature knows one or more mythos, you may elect to fill your empty slots with a mythos and/or Excellency (as appropriate) known by the target. You must be able to use mythos of the appropriate tier to select a mythos of that tier (e.g. to gain an exalted mythos requires knowing exalted mythos yourself). You may replace the mythos and Excellency gained through this ability whenever you kill a mythos-using creature with ‘Power-stealing aberrant-liege’ (selecting from those the newly killed creature knew as normal).

Should the class the mythos or Excellency is from possess any class features that are relevant to the ability’s function (such as ‘Death's Torn Tapestry’ for an Olethrofex, or a Teramach’s ‘Monstrous Rage’) you gain that class feature for as long as you possess such an Excellency or mythos.

Advanced manifestations
A legend consumed
You gain an additional slot for storing mythos.

Excellence through assimilation
You gain an additional two slots for storing excellences.

Living-World Shintai
Perquisites: Creeping Flesh-Fortress, Monster-Making Beast-Lord, Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis

You unite with the perfect metaphor of yourself, the near reborn kyniteros, and the blur where one meets the other. The world expanding net that forms the heart of your rebuilt titan-zygote, from which the lesser avatars of you make their home, the lair from which your hunts begin and end.

When acquiring this mythos you immediately gain a free manifestation of your choice for ‘Creeping Flesh-Fortress’. Additionally you select any Flesh Node you own and you are immediately transported to its location and fused with it as a free action (destroying the Flesh Node in the process).

By being fused with the flesh Node you essentially overwrite its location with yourself and You are treated as the flesh node for all effects, with any additional hardness you gain becoming DR/-.

Additionally you gain the following list of traits:
• You may possess two more natural attacks from grafts than your normal limit, and should you possess the Ever-shifting protean-mastery mythos or later gain it you gain an additional two ‘slots’ for internalised grafts.

• You gain a +6 bonus to your Constitution statistic and Regeneration 1/-. This Regeneration is lost under the conditions described below.

• You become completely tied to the location of the flesh node you selected and thus cannot independently move away from it.

• The entirety of the area(s) covered by Web is considered a part of your body for all beneficial purposes (so for example your may
be treated as standing in any of those eligible locations for effecting you. You may not attack creatures outside of your bodies’ actual reach through this effect). The site of your original body is still treated as normal. You may continue to place Flesh nodes on any area covered by Web.

• The material produced by Flesh Nodes halves the time between whenever it grows (no matter the cause) and it and the Flesh Nodes gain fast healing 1.

• You gain the constant sharing of all senses with, and telepathy with infinite range to, your Animal Companion and the ability to use any Mythos you have that requires activation through your animal companion (as if you shared its location).

In order to ‘uproot’ yourself from the Web you must spend a minute of concentration regenerating your limbs and form. Once you do so all Flesh Nodes you created take a point of damage that may not be reduced in any way every hour until you replant yourself, tacking the same amount of time as uprooting yourself. When uprooted you regain mobility you lose your regeneration, all Flesh Nodes and the material they produce lose their fast healing, and you and your Fleshscape are constantly staggered. When staggered from uprooting you may create Creatures and grafts and use any creature altering mythos as a standard action if it would normally take a full round action.

When a rooted Kreikiri takes non-lethal damage in excess of its current hit point total, the excess damage is instead transferred as lethal damage to the nearest Flesh Node within one mile. Should all flesh nodes within a mile of you be destroyed you lose your regeneration until there is once again a Flesh Node within a mile of your position and at least 30 minutes have passed. When you are reduced to sufficiently low hip points to be dead, you immediately uproot and return to half of your maximum hit points. You have a full minute before you become staggered from this uprooting.

Should you possess the ‘From-a-single-cell rebirth’ mythos then you may reform your ‘body’ in any area covered by Web.
Should you possess the ‘Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery’ mythos you may As a full-round (or swift if you possess the Quick mutation manifestation) action you can equip one internalized graft (or two if you possess the Adaptive arsenal manifestation) on a given patch of Web. You must be able to perceive the location you are attaching the graft through some method (even if only through blindsense). Any damage done through attacking an internalised graft is dealt to the Kreikiri. This means that the Kreikiri must either have Quick Mutation to activate the grafts while concentrating to perceive the area, or have Always watching to be able to use a full-round action to equip the graft (or both). Any attacks made on a Graft equiped on the Fleshscape are handled normally or as if attacking the Kreikiri himself (depending on the graft) and any damage done through attacking an internalised graft is dealt to the Kreikiri.

Aesthetically manifesting a graft through Web generally appears as that part of the environment coming alive as the parts sprout from the ground).

Master of Change
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

When creating a graft you may convert it into a black oily liquid reminiscent of a potion for no additional cost but you must immediately roll for attachment, as a free action that takes no time but you may not take 20. On a failed roll half the cost of the graft is refunded to you with the rest of the graft points wasted, and no graft is created.

When turned into such a state the graft is functionally an ordinary potion that when inspected would be of an unknown spell. The imbiber of the potion is immediately staggered for the next 30 minutes and takes 3d6 points of nonlethal damage in the pain of their mutation. At the end of this period the imbiber will have completely developed the graft.

Should a creature use this to attempt to gain a graft when they may not possess any more grafts they instead immediately save against being infected by the disease created by the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ mythos, with the alteration that when they would become a Creature, they instead become a Black Pudding that is entirely normal apart from that it retains the infected individuals grafts (the ‘potion graft’ that caused the transformation is not gained), and that d4 portions of the ‘potion graft’ that caused them to become infected with the disease may be found on the Pudding’a corpse, in the from of a congealed section of pudding, which degrade to uselessness in 2d4 days . Every time the Pudding splits the collected potions of the graft are shared among the split puddings. Should they pass the save against the disease they vomit up a vast pool of oily black residue and are Nauseated for 1d4 minutes. Should the Kreikiri who created the ‘potion graft’ have the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ Mythos the Pudding also inflicts the disease with its natural attacks.

Additionally when creating one a ‘potion graft’ in this manner you may choose to instead have it stay within the system of the imbiber and be passed on to one their next child. A graft gained by the eventual child this way gains the ‘Genetic’ augment and the graft will become available to the creature upon puberty. A foetus may only support a number of grafts added through ‘Master of Change’ equal to half the mother's maximum number of grafts (min. of 1). If that limit is exceeded the foetus then turns into a Black Pudding that is deposited into the nearest empty space from its point of emergence. Should it emerge from another creature, the pudding immediately gets to make a full attack against that creature.

The child is born entirely normal but upon puberty they do not gain the graft as normal, develop an unending hunger, and gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller.

After eating the creature the individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should you have harvested the corpse for graft points, but without taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

One the creature has gained a number of graft points equal to the amount originally needed to create their ‘Genetic’ graft they lose their hunger and bite attack and gain the graft as normal. The ‘potion grafts’ received from this effect count towards the maximum number of grafts a creature may possess.

Necrotic Meat-Mutation
Perquisite: Monster-Making Beast-Lord

Your body becomes host to a mutational disease. This disease is spread through your body fluids and though any natural attack you possess, using the mechanics listed below:

It is a disease who’s save DC as is as normal for mythos-based effects. The diseases incubation period is 1d4 days, with further saves thereafter occurring every 24 hours. The effects of the disease on a failed save are 1d2 charisma drain.

The visible symptoms of the disease are that the victim’s entire body begins going through temporary spontaneous mutations, increasing in severity the lower a victim's Charisma is. At first only things like hair colour or skin texture may be effected, but later entire vestigial limbs may develop and retract, their limbs develop new joints, and eventually the infected individual becomes a horrifying sight of jumbled, ever-shifting flesh and erupting organs, looking almost as if a swarm of writhing insects has burrowed beneath their skin.

Despite the effects on someone’s looks, and likely their mental state, a canny individual can make use of their situation. Once a creature has taken five points of charisma drain from the disease they increase their natural reach by 5ft, for every three points of such damage they take they increase all their physical statistics by one point, and they gain a bonus on intimidate checks equal to the amount of charisma drain they have taken.

Unfortunately (for the victim anyway) they develop an unending compulsive hunger on taking their first point of charisma drain, gaining a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The infected creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller. After eating the creature the infected individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should to have harvested the corpse for graft points, taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such, with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

If the victim can gain a number of Graft Points in a day equal to or greater than half their Charisma score then they don't have to make the save for a number of days equal to their Con bonus (min 1) and can suppress any changes in appearance. Once their Charisma drops to 8 or lower they cannot suppress the changes in their appearance and lose any Hidden Power augments they may have.

This continues until the creature has been infected for d10 years or their charisma becomes zero, at which time the true effects of the disease become apparent when the victim slips into a coma and begins to mutate over a minute. At this time you immediately become aware of this creature and subsequently become aware of their location and of what the creature has seen in the past minute. You may then immediately create a creature, as per ‘Monster-making beast-lord’, without having to pay the 15 points to construct the creatures body, and using the amount of graft points the creature has (and only that creature, not any of yours) combined with what they would grant should you harvest them but with the dice rolled maximised. This Creature is treated as one you created in all ways and for resurrection purposes the creature who was infected (whose body became the new creature) is treated as if their body was raised as an undead creature for spell effects. When creating a creature due to this disease you must spend at least half the graft points available. Any unused points are granted to the Kreikiri the disease originated from.

Kreikiri, created creatures, and those who bear a Kreikiri graft are given complete blanket immunity to the disease, even with the ‘Unbound Creation’ manifestation.

Creatures created from the infected bodies are considered allies to each other, likely engaging in pack tactics if of animal level intelligence, and will cooperate to greater degrees if smarter. The Creatures become hostile to all other creatures in a manner similar to those altered with ‘Storm-of-Cuts life Altering Flurry’ and you may "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. Unlike such altered creatures however they by default are always neutral to you and other Kreikiri.

Upon transformation into a Creature you may choose for the infected creature may retain their original mind and memories if you desire them to, but in such cases the creatures have a 50% chance to not gain the hostility to non-Creatures and have their disposition toward the Kreikiri remain unchanged. Such cases the Creature is rebuilt as per the Man-is-Monster Restoration manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord but without the half price discount.

Once the disease is cured any charisma drain the infected creature took becomes charisma damage and can be healed normally and any unused graft points the creature accrued are lost and granted to the Kreikiri.

Advanced manifestations:
Neural Echoes
Every time an infected creature consumes another creature for graft points it retains a portion of that creatures mind, and when the infected becomes a Created Creature you may choose for these portions of consumed minds to be worked into the final construction (you may specifically choose which minds if any are used), allowing you to choose between a composite mind or and diffused mind.

• Composite Mind
A composite mind is a fusion of the numerous minds. It grants the resulting Creature the ability to make a special Bardic Knowledge check (as per the bard class feature) on anything the consumed may have known with a cumulative +1 bonus (up to a max of their HD) per mind used to form the Creature. The disposition and opinion of the resulting creature would tend towards a middle ground between all minds.

• Diffused Mind
WiP

Virulent Plague
You gain ability focus (Necrotic meat-mutation) as a bonus feat. In addition your disease now becomes magical, now requiring a remove curse spell in additional to a cure disease spell to cure it.

Outbreak
You may choose on creation to grant any Creature created though your disease the ability to spread the disease through their bodily fluids and natural attacks, identically to the Kreikiri. Additionally you select one of your natural attacks. When used to transmit the disease the DC is increased by +2.

Dead Men Tell no Secrets but Those of Flesh
When an infected creature dies their death throws produce a number of thrashing limbs that target all creatures within a range equal to the creatures reach +5ft. Have the creature roll an attack roll against any creature in this radius apart from creatures you created and you, with every creature hit taking an amount of damage equal to 1d6/HD of the dying creature. This manifestations effects are treated as a natural attack.

For every creature that dies as a result of this (as well as any corpses in the area affected) is fused with the now dead infected creature that is immediately considered to have consumed those corpses for graft points. After this the creature immediately becomes a creature as if their charisma becomes zero.

Nightmarish Genesis
Whenever the disease causes a creature to be formed, it only takes one round to do so.

Unbound Creation
Your disease now ignores immunity to disease.

Old Flesh Gives Way to New
After 8 hours of concentration you may select a single option form the ranger favoured enemy list. For that day your disease may only infect creatures of that type and infected that are not of that type (or subtype) are affected as if they consumed Graft Points equal to half their Charisma (lasting only a day, not their Con bonus). If you wish the disease may target everyone but a specific creature type (or subtype) with similar results. The effects of this manifestation persists even after the death of the Kreikiri.

Patent-Zero Lurking Technique
You may choose, as a swift action, to disable or enable the ability for you to spread your disease.


Exalted Mythos have been relocated to page 5

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-06, 08:47 PM
Kreikiri Excellency’s


Abominable Sewn-Flesh Displacement
Perquisites:-

Select one type of magical graft normally accessible through the Graft Flesh feat (Fiendish, Undead, Abloeth, etc.) without regard to racial prerequisites. When making grafts through Limb-shredding graft-taker that duplicate a selected magical graft (including any limitations, if any) then the Graft Point cost of this magic item component is halved. This is cumulative with any other enhancements/alterations to the Kreikiri's graft making capabilities (such as Eldritch Living-Weapon).

You may take this Excellency mutable times, selecting a different type of magical graft each time.

Adapted (Ability) Evolution
Perquisite: -

Choose one of Strength, Dexterity, Wisdom, or Constitution. This Excellency may be purchased once for each Ability Score, granting a +2 enhancement bonus to the chosen ability.

Once you have at least one Legendary Mythos known, this Excellency may be purchased a second time for each Ability Score. This second purchase increases the enhancement bonus by 4, to a total of +6.

All-Knowing Master of Beasts
Perquisite: -

Whenever you make a Knowledge check to gain details about a type of monster you add half your Kreikiri level to the result of the die roll. Should you possess the ‘Cry of the Consumed‘ mythos this bonus increases to your full Kreikiri level.

Additionally you gain a bonus to attack and critical hit confirmation rolls equal to the number of details you gain on a knowledge check made to gather information on a creature, and half this number on damage rolls.

Building a Better Beast
Perquisite: Monster-making beast-lord

All creatures you create gain +2 to an ability score of your choice when you build them. If you possess an animal companion, it gains either +2 to two ability scores or +4 to a single one. You may purchase this Excellency once per mythos tier you may access, but in the case of your animal companion you may not choose the same ability score twice in a row. After the third time you purchase this Excellency you treat any creature you have given over five grafts to (potently including yourself) as a creature you have created, allocating statistic boosts as if they were your animal companion.

[b]Conversion Chambers
Perquisite: Limb-shredding graft-taker

At the cost of 100 graft points as per the ‘Limb-shredding graft-taker’ mythos you may produce a ‘Conversion Chamber’, this is a structure that uses the statistics of a 4 HD medium sized aberration with no movement ability, a 10 in all physical stats, a 1 in charisma and wisdom, and the mindless special quality. The Chamber has a single bite attack dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage with the improved grab and swallow whole (d6 nonlethal untyped damage, unable to inflict any lethal damage, and stomach HP is equal to half the chambers) abilities and with a +15 Racial bonus to grappling. Additionally the creature has the powerful build special ability, grappling as a large creature and allowing its swallow whole ability to affect medium sized creatures.

During the creation of the chamber (which takes two hours) you ‘spend’ a graft you currently are carrying (or create on the spot), which is then permanently copied into the chamber.

At this same time you may store any number of graft points, to a minimum of equal to that used to create the graft. From then on, any creature that is placed in the ‘stomach’ is sealed inside for 24 hours unless they are cut out before that. Once a creature is sealed within the chamber for 24 hours they are then immediately required to take a fortitude save or have an identical copy of the graft attached to them, should a sufficient number of graft points be available within the chamber to produce it (these graft points are then spent). The chamber may be ‘refuelled’ as a standard action by any creature capable of possessing graft points, transferring any number of graft points from the creature to the chamber.

Should their not be sufficient graft points available to the chamber when it would grant a creature a graft, the Chamber will then vivisect (see Limb-shredding graft-taker) one or more eligible creatures as if it were a 1st level Kreikiri to acquire graft points to create the graft. A creature may make a DC 15 knowledge (Dungeoneering) check to determine how many graft points the chamber currently contains.

For an additional 50 points the chamber may be large sized (and swallowing up to large sized targets). For 100 it may be huge sized, 200 it may be gargantuan, and for 300 it may be colossal. If the chamber has more than one creature inside all are required to take saves (and the chamber must currently store a number of graft points equal to that of the amount used to build graft to be added equal to each creature (e.g. a chamber that would grant a graft worth five graft points and that contains two creatures would have to store ten points, three creatures would mean fifteen, etc.). A creature may choose to fail the save to resist gaining the graft.

You may add the abilities of a Conversion Chamber to a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create for +50% of the total cost of the chamber, Increasing the implantation DC by +10 as if it were a magic item. The Stomach feature must be large enough to contain a creature of the Chambers size and the size of the Mouth attached to this Stomach limits the size of creature that can access the Chamber (ie. the basic Stomach feature can fit a huge Conversion Chamber, accommodating up to 16 medium creatures so long as it was attached to a large mouth feature, or a small mouth if equipped with the Entryway augment to allow access for medium creatures). The Conversion Chamber/Stomach uses the hosts HP and abilities as per a normal graft (rather than the 4 HD of a standard Conversion Chamber) with the limitation that the +15 Racial bonus to grapple only applies within the affected Stomach.'

Stat block for a medium Conversion Chamber is presented below.
[b]Size/Type: Medium Aberration
Hit Dice: 4D8 + 0 (16 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 0ft.
Armour Class: 10
[b]Base attack/Grapple: +3/+18
Attack: bite +3 melee (1d4 nonlethal)
Full Attack: bite +3 melee (1d4 nonlethal)
Space/Reach: 5ft./5ft.
Special Attacks: improved grab (bite), swallow whole ((d6 nonlethal untyped, unable to inflict any lethal damage)
Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., Mindless, Powerful Build
Saves: Fort 1, Ref 1, Will -4
Abilities: Str 10, Dex 10, Con 10, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
Skills: -
Feats: -

Fleshcrafting Prodigy
Perquisite: -

When implanting a graft or creating a creature the DC to do so is reduced by two.
Additionally should a Kreikiri lack the Limb-shredding graft-taker mythos when they gain this Excellency they gain the ability to harvest graft points as if they possessed it.

Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration
Perquisites:-

A Kreikiri can now allow the gifts of his craft to spread through the generations. When creating a graft the Kreikiri may add the ‘Legacy’ augmentation for no additional cost.

When a creature to which you have attached a Legacy graft reproduces, its offspring each have a 50% chance of possessing an identical copy of the graft(s) of that parent (roll individually for each graft, and for both parents should both have grafts). Grafts gained inherited in this way lose the Legacy augment and instead gain the ‘Retained’ augment.

For each Retained graft the offspring receive a further d4 is rolled to determine when the grafts effects become available to the creature (1- from birth, 2-a week to a year after birth, 3- early-mid childhood, 4-upon puberty). Grafts available from birth can cause potential problems for the mother should her race produce live young. A Retained graft still counts against the graft limit (but the number of Retained grafts a creature may have can exceed it should they creature have inherited more grafts that they can normally possess), and can be removed as a normal graft (losing the Retained augment and gaining Legacy) and attached to another creature as per normal.

Should a creature bearing a Retained graft then continue on to reproduce, each of their offspring in turn have a 50% chance of inheriting the parents Retained graft, and gain access to them at the same time as the parent (i.e they share the equivalent result from the d4 roll). Grafts inherited in this way lose the Retained augment and gain the ‘Inherited’ augment. An Inherited graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it as per a Retained graft), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Inherited augment without a replacement augment) and attached to another creature as per normal. After having bonded to this degree with its host the graft is no longer capable of breeding through with another, or restarting the process should it be reattached.

Should the host of an Inherited graft reproduce their children behave as above but have a 75% chance of inheriting Inherited grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts should she herself possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Inherited augment and gain the ‘Genetic’ augment. A Genetic graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it as described above), can be removed as a normal graft, but cannot be attached to another creature once removed. They can then be reconverted to Graft Points if the Kreikiri is capable of doing so (with the Meat Reprocessing manifestation for example) but are otherwise useless after being torn from their host.

If a Genetic graft is passed on to one more generation the offspring have a 100% chance of gaining the Genetic grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts even if she herself does not possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Genetic augment and gain the ‘Natural’ augment. A Natural graft does not count against the graft limit and cannot be removed as a normal graft. The abilities of a Natural graft are now considered to be racial traits in all respects and no longer counts as a graft in any real way (ie. it can no longer be siphoned for Mythos Points by Power-stealing aberrant-liege and similar) and will always breed true in any further offspring. The host of a Natural graft is essentially the progenitor of a new strain of their former race.

A creature can have multiple grafts all at different levels of integration and each graft is tracked separately.
Additionally when designing a graft you may add the following additional augments for the listed costs:

Modified Gestation: Cost- 5
The creature’s young are produced in a different way that what is normal for that creature. Should both creatures possess this quality the mother’s version takes precedence. The following options are included for how the creature reproduces. Choose one:

Live young- the creatures young develop within the mother, similar to most mammalian humanoids. This has no alterations to development. Additionally this option allows for the alteration of the creature’s natural reproductive process, the specifics of this can be anything so as long the offspring are born in a live birth (e.g. making the creature a marsupial.

Laying eggs- the creature lays eggs into the external environment like most birds, reptiles and fish. This has no alterations to development.
The egg of a medium creature is an object with 5 HP and hardness 2. The HP of the egg is halved per size the parents are smaller than medium (rounded up) and doubled for each size larger (should the parents be different sizes use the size of the mother). An egg needs to be kept in a safe place and at a constant temperature to mature properly.

Egg-layers require half normal recovery time before another egg can be laid (so 1/4 normal gestation time) and that recovery begins at the moment of laying, not hatching.

Mitosis- the creatures splits into two identical creatures to reproduce. This option requires the creature to be able to reproduce asexually. When preformed, mitosis results in the creature being replaced with two identical copies of themselves, but each suffers two levels/HD of level loss that cannot be restored by any means. Only one creature becomes the new character should a PC undergo mitosis.

Mythos points and Graft points are split evenly with odd numbers going to either the new character or being randomly given to either creature should neither be a character. Grafts are each randomly gained by either of the new creatures (so if one gains the graft the other does, not and vice versa). Grafts with the Retained, Genetic, Inherited, or Natural, augments are always gained by both creatures. Once who gains which grafts has been determined, all grafts with the Legacy, Retained, Genetic, Inherited, or Natural augments increase a generation (e.g. Legacy --> Retained etc).

Infertile- the creature is entirely incapable of natural reproduction.

The time gestation takes for the young to be born/hatched/whatever is standard for the mothers race. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible alterations due to Modified development, see below). Should gestation periods for a creature not be known, assume 9 months for a medium sized creature. Double this time for each size above medium, and halve it for each size below. For game purposes, assume that the mother cannot become pregnant again for a period of half the gestation time after birth.

Additionally for the listed cost the following options may be added:

• The creature may be made to reproduce asexually for 15 graft points (unless it reproduces using mitosis the creature must be biologically female). Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, subject to the gestation and recovery times of their method.

• The time needed to gestate may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but provide no points), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the penalty may be doubled (to 2 months) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any excess reduction may be spent towards the modified development quality.

• The time needed to reproduce may be reduced; this increases the cost of applying this quality by +10 for every week you reduce it by (smaller reductions may be added but grant no discount to the cost), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the benefit may be doubled (to 2 weeks) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum gestation/recovery time of 1 day).

Modified Development: Cost- varies (see below)
The creatures’ development and ageing is altered to some degree.
Extending the lifespan of the creature costs ten points per year added to their maximum lifespan, to an age category of your choice, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood).

Reducing the lifespan reduces the cost of this quality by -5 for every two years you remove, which may be from any age category, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood). Smaller reductions may be made but do not provide any Graft points. For a creature of intelligence three or higher these reductions may never shorten their childhood to shorter than five years.

Altering their age categories costs five points for every year altered, which may be removed from one age category and added to any other. Any alterations that would result in a creature of intelligence three or higher reducing their childhood to shorter than five years have their cost doubled.

Any reduction below one year would then become an appropriate reduction measured in months. Any reduction below one month would then become an appropriate reduction measured in weeks. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum of 1 day).

Additionally for the listed cost the following options may be added:
• The creature may stop ageing upon reaching adulthood for 25 points. (and thus longer accrues aging bonuses)

• The creature may be ‘born’ fully mature and grow to full size within minutes, starting with basic knowledge to allow it to function
(basically what its skill ranks, feats, and natural abilities would suggest), costing 100 points.

• The creature possess a larval stage that it stays in for at least half of its childhood, designed by you as a creature with a number of graft points to spend on it equal to half of what the creature itself costs + however many additional points you wish to spend (at the time of selecting this option). For at least the last 10% of the creatures’ childhood it is in some form of a developmental stage such as a pupa or growing limbs for its adult form, you determine any limitations of this development form e.g. immobile. This costs 4 points. For an additional 8 points you may have the creature possess an additional stage in its life cycle (choose which age category this applies to other than childhood). This other stage in the creatures life cycle is designed in an identical manner to the larval stage.
A creature may only be affected by a single copy of each of the above qualities. For the purposes of the implantation/creation DC, both Modified gestation and Modified development each count as a CL 2 magic item (regardless of the number of graft points spent within each augment).

Fresh Meat
Perquisite: Limb-shredding graft-taker

Whenever you harvest graft points from a creature you gain +1 point per HD the creature possesses. You may purchase this Excellency once per mythos tier you may access.

Legend-Hungering (Titan)-Devourer
Perquisite: Power-stealing aberrant-liege with either Legend-burnout ash harvester or Feast of mortal flesh Advanced manifestations.

The Kyniteros stole the myths of many creatures over time, and it angers yet over how it failed to gain those of others. And now it returns, and it will take its due.

This is not one Excellency, but a template describing a theoretically infinite number of different excellencies, one for each ‘mythic race’ feats that exists. 'Legend-hungering (Mountain)-devourer' and ‘Legend-hungering (Protean)-devourer', despite using the same rules, are two completely different excellencies.

This Excellency grants a single ‘mythic race’ feat whose ‘racial’ Perquisites (those whose effects correspond with the race it is of) that applies to a creature that you have killed with ‘Power-stealing aberrant-liege’. For example a killed Kolbold could grant ‘The Legacy of Fallen Blood’. This Excellency may be taken multiple times.

Masterful Body Control
Perquisites:-

You gain immunity to bleed, may hold your breath for a number of minutes equal to your Constitution score at a time, and gain a +4 bonus on saves against poison and disease.

No Escape for the Hunted
Perquisite:-

You add half your level (minimum 1) to Survival skill checks made to follow tracks and you gain the scent ability with an effective range of 60ft, treating all scents made in the past week as being fresh tracks for the purposes of tracking with the survival skill (generally DC 10 without other modifiers also in effect).

Resculpting-the-Flesh
Perquisite: - True-surgeons-skill

The Kyniteros was not a being to accept what it began with. No it strived to become better, faster, stronger, smarter. And so its influence will drive its scions to rebuild themselves into something altogether more.

This Excellency removes any and all weakness Racal traits you possess, such as an elemental vulnerability or light sensitivity. Additionally this Excellency may be taken mutable times. Should this excellency be taken a second time or if you have no Racal weaknesses the first time you take it, you gain either: a +2 bonus on one skill of your choice and always count as having the required tools on hand for that skill, or an additional class skill. Other Racal bonuses you have from other sources stack with this excellences effects. In addition you may have an additional amount of grafts attached to you equal to half the times you have taken this Excellency.
Each time you take this Excellency you lose all the permanent negative ability score modifiers you possess form a single source, for example race, template, etc.

You may take this Excellency a number of times equal to once per skill, not counting times used to make a skill into a class skill. Once you have at least one Legendary Mythos known, this Excellency may be purchased a second time for each skill, granting skill focus in that skill as a bonus feat.

Each time you take this Excellency your body alters slightly, to make it visibly more capable at the selected skill. For example if climb is selected your hands may grow slightly and have your nails harden into suitable climbing tools, or for disguise you may become able to slightly alter your features and produce various pigments form your body.

As an additional ability should you possess the ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ mythos and its ‘Man-is-monster restoration’ manifestation, you gain an additional option when using ‘Man-is-monster restoration’. Any racial traits the target does not retain may be added with a DC 15 + their HD heal check, and a trait be removed with a 10 + their HD heal check.

Structure Shifting Alterations
Perquisite:-

Over an hour you may perform a surgical procedure on a willing or helpless creature, that will alter the creature’s features in any way possible as if that creature was affected by a disguise self spell, with the exception that the effect is permanent, nonmagical, entirely physical rather than an illusion, and only affects the creature itself and not equipment. This Excellency can create essentially any alteration to the creature's form, but any unnatural (as in not normal for the creature variety) physical structures are cosmetic only. Otherwise the effect is treated as a natural part of the creature is question, be it having their hair made blue, weight loss, gender changing or even adding non-functional limbs. The effects of this Excellency generally shouldn’t cause any mechanical effect besides the disguise bonus.

Tongue of the Savage
Perquisite:-

You gain the wild empathy ability, as per a druid, treating your druid level as your Kreikiri level, with the alteration that it may be used on any creature with intelligence two or lower, including mindless creatures.

Unbound by Tales of Others
Perquisite: must possess a mythos that grants some manner of weakness (as in a purely negative trait that grants no direct

beneficial effect, and that is not a limitation to a different effect of that mythos) and that is a mythos that is not normally part of the normal list available to a Kreikiri , must be able to access fantastic mythos.

You select one weakness-causing mythos you possess that meets the perquisite criteria, such as the mythic vampires ‘Hemophiliac Dark Metamorphosis’, or the Teramach’s rage causing mythos’s. You may now, as a swift action, choose to disable or re-enable the ability to use or benefit from the mythos’s effects, but are still considered to know for all purposes. You may take this Excellency multiple times, selecting a different eligible mythos each time.

Weakness-Sheering Revivivation
Perquisite: Unbound by tales of others, must be able to access legendary mythos.

You select one mythos selected with ‘Unbound by tales of others’ you know, its effects that would be considered a weakness are permanently removed, but its other effects are still available. You may take this Excellency multiple times, up to the number of times you have selected ‘Unbound by tales of others’


changelog and other notes

as upon the time of writing this it is late, I will have to finish up for the night and will finish formatting this sometime tomorrow (probably, im currently ill and some days are better than others).

also should anything reference a mythos that is not yet posted, it will likely also be done when I cover the formatting.


07.01
done the formatting and added legendary mythos.

10.01
banner is added, added a few tags to the legendary mythos, and the first two exalted mythos are up, hopefully around three more will be written.

13.01
added another exaulted mythos, and at the time of writing am about to sort out some typos.

08.02
made more corrections.

18.02
more corrections and have added some of the suggestions to improve the class.

21.02
added some of the suggestions to improve the class for several mythos. exceptional mythos seem complete unless other issues or suggestions are pointed out

23.03
more stuff fixed.

01.04
That should be the fantastic mythos done. also removed references to a mythos that was removed in some excellency's

15.04
made some minor proficiency and class skill additions.

26.04
continued with more suggested alterations to some myhtos.

15.06
correcting capitalization errors.

24.06
corrected the class table where an Excellency was missing for a level.

22.07
alphabetized exceptional myhtos and added costs to Creature types

01.08
alphabetized fantastic mythos.

12.23
Made some changes I forgot to do to an Exauted Mythos.

2016:
Added symbiont mythos(s) I some tweaked form, PM me if there are recommended changes.

Primal Fury
2015-01-06, 09:03 PM
Ah. There we go. I posted before, but deleted it when I saw you weren't done yet. Now, what was I saying was that you could clean up your Table a little bit by making everything having to do with Mythos in your table part of the "The Kyniterosis Mythos" ability, then calling it out as part of that ability in the text (maybe in a spoiler or something).

EDIT: Oh! Don't forget to add the "Mythos" tag to your thread.

Kymme
2015-01-06, 10:19 PM
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm so hype, I can't even believe it!

Also, I made a banner for you.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/Kymme777/TheKreikiriBanner_zpsde5e7087.png

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-07, 01:03 PM
Ah. There we go. I posted before, but deleted it when I saw you weren't done yet. Now, what was I saying was that you could clean up your Table a little bit by making everything having to do with Mythos in your table part of the "The Kyniterosis Mythos" ability, then calling it out as part of that ability in the text (maybe in a spoiler or something).

I'l wait for a second opinion on this, what Ive currently got is what seems to be the standard for Mythos class tables so far.


EDIT: Oh! Don't forget to add the "Mythos" tag to your thread.

I'l get right on that.


WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! I'm so hype, I can't even believe it!

glad to hear it, wasn't aware there was hype for this.


Also, I made a banner for you.

http://i1231.photobucket.com/albums/ee508/Kymme777/TheKreikiriBanner_zpsde5e7087.png

excellent, thank you. now how do I add it?, just copy/paste the information you have between [IMG] labels when editing the original post?

in the meantime I will be writing a few more Exalted mythos.

Kymme
2015-01-07, 06:57 PM
glad to hear it, wasn't aware there was hype for this.

Well, I'm pretty exited about it. I enjoy the whole concept of this class.


excellent, thank you. now how do I add it?, just copy/paste the information you have between [IMG] labels when editing the original post?

in the meantime I will be writing a few more Exalted mythos.

You are quite welcome. :smallbiggrin: All you've gotta do is right click the image, go to "copy image url" and then paste it in the little window that opens up when you click the image picture (its got a little tree on it, and a black dot in the four corners).

Primal Fury
2015-01-07, 09:39 PM
Okay, I'm not sure about this part right here:

The first is to expend resources acquiring materials (including immaterial things such as knowledge) for use in hunting creatures for grafts or as targets, such as for buying suitable traps or paying for specially crafted arrows for your quarry (their first use or expenditure gains a number of mythos points equal to their cost in GP).
What you have here rewards the Kreikiri for spending gold on weapons and traps that can actually be used in combat. The Teramach destroys the item, the Kathados gives to the poor or spends gold on a pilgrimage, while the Olethrofex spends gold on funeral rites. These characters are pursuing a type of asceticism, giving up their worldly possessions to come closer to achieving the perfection inherent in that specific narrative. I think you have the right of it with respect to spending gold on acquiring knowledge, but the traps and arrows don't feel quite right.

Maybe donating gold to... doctors focusing on vivisection/healing? Not sure at the moment.

Adam1949
2015-01-07, 09:55 PM
Maybe donating gold to... doctors focusing on vivisection/healing? Not sure at the moment.
Donating gold and supplies to medical facilities for research, butchers for keeping their businesses open, and farms for keeping the crops fertilized (possibly with corpses).

Tacitus
2015-01-07, 11:50 PM
I'm thinking I may end up scrapping my Occassus and instead submitting some of its Mythos to this. >.> My lack of inspiration and time combined with some overlapping themes makes me think it might be a better option. We'll see.

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-10, 04:57 PM
Okay, I'm not sure about this part right here:

What you have here rewards the Kreikiri for spending gold on weapons and traps that can actually be used in combat. The Teramach destroys the item, the Kathados gives to the poor or spends gold on a pilgrimage, while the Olethrofex spends gold on funeral rites. These characters are pursuing a type of asceticism, giving up their worldly possessions to come closer to achieving the perfection inherent in that specific narrative. I think you have the right of it with respect to spending gold on acquiring knowledge, but the traps and arrows don't feel quite right.

Maybe donating gold to... doctors focusing on vivisection/healing? Not sure at the moment.


Donating gold and supplies to medical facilities for research, butchers for keeping their businesses open, and farms for keeping the crops fertilized (possibly with corpses).

I actually like these ideas (the fact I was not entirely satisfied with the currant idea anyway helps), they should be added by the time either of you are reading this.

Kymme
2015-01-10, 11:23 PM
I'm going to try and put down all of my constructive criticism for the information you posted as of right now over the next week or so.

I'll start with the class table. Frankly, it's too narrow. I think that it would look much better if you widened it from 500 to ~800 or so. Also, you didn't capitalize Perfection in the table entry for the Sundered Perfection class feature. At level 6, you've written 4 in the Base Attack Bonus column. It ought to have a + sign in front of it. Level 12 and level 17 are also missing + signs. At level 12 there is a +8 in the Special column that probably shouldn't be there.

Moving down to the class features entries, the K in "The kyniterosis Mythos" should probably be capitalized. Also, there ought to be an apostrophe at the end of 'Kyniterosis' to indicate possession.

Don't Exalted Mythos cost 2,000 xp to learn? You have 20,000 written under "Mythos Known".

And now I'm going to make a start on the Exceptional Mythos.

For starters, I think that you should capitalize the Mythos name and add a hyphen and an apostrophe like I did in the above.

The enhancement to damage and counting it as a masterwork tool are both thematic and powerful. I assume the only way to remove this Mythos from a weapon would be to have the Kreikiri wielding it die?

The enhancement bonus progresses in a bizarre way (a holdover from when this Mythos was Fantastic Tier, perhaps?). I'd recommend a +1 at third level and every 3 levels thereafter (for a high-power weapon) or a +1 at fourth level and every 4 levels thereafter (for more of a sidearm or weaker weapon). That's all up to you, however. Trading enhancement bonuses for specific abilities is a good very good idea.

Spending Mythos points to increase the power of the weapon could turn out well, but it could also result in a Kreikiri running around with a +15 weapon at level 10 or something. I don't know at the moment, and I think that making the mythos points -> enchantments scale the same way as normal is a splendid way to keep it balanced, but I'm still a bit concerned that a +7 base + whatever you buy with mp might be too much.

I think that a flat mp cost to get a new weapon after your old one is destroyed is much more player-friendly than a steadily increasing cost, especially when there is no real way to predict what the weapon's total enchantment bonus will be at any given level will be. It might be alright to keep it, though, if there was some kind of advanced manifestation that renders your weapon indestructible or something of that stripe. Also, you misspelled abilities in the first sentence. The last sentence of this paragraph seems kind of out of place. Is it referring to selecting a new weapon if the old one breaks?

And now onto its guaranteed manifestation, Hunter's claw. (You should capitalize the word claw, here. There are quite a few (easy-fix) errors when it comes to the names of the Kreikiri's Mythos and manifestations.)

It basically does the same thing as the normal Mythos (increasing damage by one step and lets you enchant stuff) except it applies all of that stuff to a natural attack (or two) at the cost of one enhancement point. I'm curious as to the stipulation of [identical enchants, or opposite enchants] when it comes to a pair of natural weapons. Is there a reason for that extra?

In the second sentence of the second paragraph, you should change the word 'on' to 'upon'. I think that is the more appropriate word to use. Also, I think that you ought to give this manifestation the prerequisite that the Kreikiri must have a natural attack to get it, and gains it immediately if it gets a natural attack at a later date.

Aaaaand my critique on the first Mythos is complete. I want you to know, ThreadNecro, that I'm PEACH-ing your class because I like it's concept and themes, and I want to try and help polish it into a diamond that can sit proudly beside Xefas' classes. If you'd like me to stop, or communicate my critiques through PM, feel free to tell me so.

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-13, 07:11 PM
I'm going to try and put down all of my constructive criticism for the information you posted as of right now over the next week or so.

I'll start with the class table. Frankly, it's too narrow. I think that it would look much better if you widened it from 500 to ~800 or so. Also, you didn't capitalize Perfection in the table entry for the Sundered Perfection class feature. At level 6, you've written 4 in the Base Attack Bonus column. It ought to have a + sign in front of it. Level 12 and level 17 are also missing + signs. At level 12 there is a +8 in the Special column that probably shouldn't be there.

Moving down to the class features entries, the K in "The kyniterosis Mythos" should probably be capitalized. Also, there ought to be an apostrophe at the end of 'Kyniterosis' to indicate possession.

Don't Exalted Mythos cost 2,000 xp to learn? You have 20,000 written under "Mythos Known".

And now I'm going to make a start on the Exceptional Mythos.

For starters, I think that you should capitalize the Mythos name and add a hyphen and an apostrophe like I did in the above.

The enhancement to damage and counting it as a masterwork tool are both thematic and powerful. I assume the only way to remove this Mythos from a weapon would be to have the Kreikiri wielding it die?

The enhancement bonus progresses in a bizarre way (a holdover from when this Mythos was Fantastic Tier, perhaps?). I'd recommend a +1 at third level and every 3 levels thereafter (for a high-power weapon) or a +1 at fourth level and every 4 levels thereafter (for more of a sidearm or weaker weapon). That's all up to you, however. Trading enhancement bonuses for specific abilities is a good very good idea.

Spending Mythos points to increase the power of the weapon could turn out well, but it could also result in a Kreikiri running around with a +15 weapon at level 10 or something. I don't know at the moment, and I think that making the mythos points -> enchantments scale the same way as normal is a splendid way to keep it balanced, but I'm still a bit concerned that a +7 base + whatever you buy with mp might be too much.

I think that a flat mp cost to get a new weapon after your old one is destroyed is much more player-friendly than a steadily increasing cost, especially when there is no real way to predict what the weapon's total enchantment bonus will be at any given level will be. It might be alright to keep it, though, if there was some kind of advanced manifestation that renders your weapon indestructible or something of that stripe. Also, you misspelled abilities in the first sentence. The last sentence of this paragraph seems kind of out of place. Is it referring to selecting a new weapon if the old one breaks?

And now onto its guaranteed manifestation, Hunter's claw. (You should capitalize the word claw, here. There are quite a few (easy-fix) errors when it comes to the names of the Kreikiri's Mythos and manifestations.)

It basically does the same thing as the normal Mythos (increasing damage by one step and lets you enchant stuff) except it applies all of that stuff to a natural attack (or two) at the cost of one enhancement point. I'm curious as to the stipulation of [identical enchants, or opposite enchants] when it comes to a pair of natural weapons. Is there a reason for that extra?

In the second sentence of the second paragraph, you should change the word 'on' to 'upon'. I think that is the more appropriate word to use. Also, I think that you ought to give this manifestation the prerequisite that the Kreikiri must have a natural attack to get it, and gains it immediately if it gets a natural attack at a later date.

Aaaaand my critique on the first Mythos is complete. I want you to know, ThreadNecro, that I'm PEACH-ing your class because I like it's concept and themes, and I want to try and help polish it into a diamond that can sit proudly beside Xefas' classes. If you'd like me to stop, or communicate my critiques through PM, feel free to tell me so.

I think iv got all the typos you pointed out and the table is widened, and I'l fix/clear up the wording the mythos tomorrow sometime (about to go to bed) as for the reason why on the natural attacks you can have opposing enchantments in to give a nod to the kyniterosis' divided nature (like in the Sundered perfection class feature).

edit:
when I first typed this I also forgot to mention you seem to have misread the effects of the manifestation (I had a case of bad word choice near the begging which I cleared out now) it was supposed to grant the natural attacks themselves as part of the effect , and allow you to swap between them and the mythos' normal form (the weapon).

also thanks for the continued PEACH-ing you are doing, I knew it would need quite a bit of work and refinement on posting, and the class itself is rather ludicrous in scope.

im also adding a note about natural attacks granted by the class that lists the attacks damage (depends on weather the attack is primary or secondary, and increases depending on size class, similar to as in Pathfinder) unless otherwise noted in the relevant mythos, it will help save space and to standardize things a little.

A problem I'm having is that I have ran out of space for exalted mythos, iv had to cut down ones size and have no room to post another two that will be written later. do you know how to correct this at all? perhaps try to fit the rest onto the same post as the excellencys?

Scaileanna
2015-01-16, 05:38 PM
Maybe I'm just missing it but where is Stolen Power Chimera Ascendant?

JKTrickster
2015-01-16, 07:39 PM
Wow so much Mythos content I'm almost becoming giddy. :smallbiggrin:

This will require some time to digest but I like the base mechanics at least.

ThreadNecro5
2015-01-19, 06:14 PM
Maybe I'm just missing it but where is Stolen Power Chimera Ascendant?

it is a mythos that was so large that I couldn't finish and was being bogged down with writing, by the time anyone reads this I should have removed all mention of it. I thought I already had until I could finish writing it but its just unbalance-able, overly large and needlessly complex.

so long story short (and in probably more coherent language), it is a dead mythos idea that got left in, I might just change the effect and re add it, possibly as a second shintai.


Wow so much Mythos content I'm almost becoming giddy.

This will require some time to digest but I like the base mechanics at least.

good to here, im aware some stuff (probably a lot) will need tweaked and rebalanced.

so if anyone sees some errors or anything like that just mention it and I'l deal with it.

Kymme
2015-02-07, 03:14 PM
Here are my reviews of two more mythos!


True Surgeons Skill This should be written 'True Surgeon's Skill'. And if you want to get really wacky, you could make it 'True-Surgeon's Skill'.
Perquisite: -
For the kyniteros to return its power must not just be removed from its vessels but also must be implanted into the Kreikiri. They need to slice and tear the flesh of others to restore themselves. This manifests as previously unknown anatomical knowledge, and despite kyniteros not being associated with the healing arts, it must grant this knowledge to the Kreikiri for its recreation to be successful and so this new mythos came of the tales of its avatar.
This mythos grants skill focus (heal) as a bonus feat, and an increase of its maximum ranks of heal the Kreikiri can have by three.

There should be an entire line of spacing between the fluffy bits of this mythos and the actual benefit. Skill Focus should be capitalized. I'd normally say that just getting one feat is sort of under-powered, but I see the meat of this mythos is in its manifestations.

Basic Manifestations:
Curing Surgeons Blade
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check, if you gain a higher result than the DC of one disease or poison (of your choice) that you have identified the target as suffering from +3, you immediately cure it. A single creature may only benefit from this 1/day +1 per four Kreikiri levels

The wording here is kind of odd. This basically gives you the ability to cure diseases and remove poisons by spending 1 minute working on the subject and making a DC (equal to that of the disease/poison + 3) heal check, right? Also, the limit on how many times somebody can benefit from this seems a bit arbitrary. Maybe just put in a clause that says if the procedure doesn't succeed, you can't try to remove the same disease from a person that day?

Weakness-Salving Flesh-Restoration
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check to remove ability damage with a DC of 13+1/2 the HD of the creature who caused the damage. Success removes d2 points of ability damage. A single creature may only benefit from this 1/day +1 per four Kreikiri levels

d2 points of ability damage is kinda weak. You should increase it to the Kreikiri's Intelligence modifier/Wisdom modifier or whatever ability score they use.

Wound-Closing Restoration
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check to remove hit point damage with a DC of 15. For every point you pass by you restore one point of damage, or two points of nonleathal damage, in any combination. A single creature may only benefit from this 1/day +1 per four Kreikiri levels.

Once again, the /day limits seem somewhat arbitrary. Can people take 20 on this heal check?

Advanced Manifestations:
Flesh Reknitting Mastery
Perquisite: Wound-closing restoration
You may now use Wound-closing restoration as a full round action

This is pretty cool, but it feels kind of weaksauce to me. You should state whether or not this full-round action provokes attacks of opportunity.

Curse-Breaking Hand
By spending a full minute preforming medical attention you may make a heal check to remove a single spell with a duration of over one day. The DC to remove such an effect is 15 +half the CL of the effect, + the casting stat of the caster (if any). A single creature may only benefit from this 1/day +1 per four Kreikiri levels.

Removing curses is pretty cool. I think you should state that this removes curses, as opposed to spells. Removing spells from things opens up a huge can of worms that I don't think this Mythos should have to deal with.

Power-Restoring-Touch
Perquisite: Weakness-salving-flesh-restoration
This functions as Weakness-salving-flesh-restoration and shares uses of it, but takes one hour to use; the DC is three higher than normal and will restore ability drain as well as ability damage.

This seems alright to me.

Master Apothecary
Select one other manifestation of this mythos that has a limitation of the uses per day on a single target of 1/day +1 per four Kreikiri levels. You may now use it +1 time per day on all targets.

I feel like this is unnecessary if you remove the per day caveats on all of the abilities. People might complain that unlimited out-of-combat healing is gamey or cheaty, but I really don't think that a hard and fast limit like this is the best idea.

Beastmasters Coiled Lash {Splintered} This should be written 'Beastmaster's Coiled Lash'.
Perquisite: -
Why is it that the kyniteros’s independent shards are so often out of your control? Why do they not wish unity? And with this problem this newfound ability gives the solution.

This mythos grants several benefits. First, this grants you the ability to deal lethal damage with a whip and allows you to use one to damage creatures even when they possess an armour bonus or a natural armour bonus of +3 or higher, and you now threaten the area within your reach when armed with a whip.

A necessary mechanical fix. Seems alright to me.

Additionally you gain an internal organic whip in one of your arms (faintly visible within a half-transparent sack or as a writhing tendril under your skin) that may be extended or retracted as a swift action. When you have this whip extended you may not use that hand for any other purpose than using the whip (but you do not drop any item in that hand).

I think this should be a manifestation, so that people can opt out of having a weird fleshy tentacle thing.

While the whip is extended you are counted as having a masterwork tool for the handle animal skill. Additionally you increase the maximum ranks of handle animal you may have by +3. The whip is considered a primary natural attack in all respects apart from using the abilities of a whip weapon.
Should the arm the whip is attached to be removed and later replaced with a different limb (likely with a graft), it mutates over an hour to regrow the whip.

Increasing the maximum ranks you can have in a skill is a bad idea. I'd just leave it as counting any whips you use as masterwork weapons of the Handle Animal skill.

Advanced manifestations:
Beast Mastering Hand
You gain animal affinity as a bonus feat. In addition by spending a full minute you may attempt to command any creature with an intelligence of 1, 2 or – (mindless creatures gain a +2 bonus on the save) within reach of your whip. The creature you are attempting to command takes a will save, and should it fail you make a handle animal check, which is then reduced by a value equal to a single d20 roll.

The creature becomes under your control and will attempt to follow your commands for a number of minutes equal to the result of the handle animal check, but after this will attempt to flee or attack you or the creatures around it, depending on the situation it is in and what its nature would dictate. The creature will not follow suicidal to obviously dangerous orders, but may be inclined to attack others.

Should the creature leave the reach of your whip for two minutes the creature immediately becomes uncontrolled. Additionally should you take hostile action towards the creature (apart from using his manifestation), or have it reduced below 50% HP you must pass a DC 20 +animals CR handle animal check or have it immediate become uncontrolled.

You may extend the duration the animal remains influenced by you by re-using this manifestation on the animal.

This seems interesting. I think that some of the DCs should scale of of animal HD, though.

Combat Tendril
You treat the whip as if it was one size large larger for damage purposes, its reach increases by +5ft, and finally it may be used as an additional limb, unable to be replaced with a graft or to wield a weapon. Finally you may now select this whip as your selected weapon with the ‘Meat-shearing butchers-scalpel’ mythos.

This seems like a solid manifestation, too.

Primal Fury
2015-02-07, 03:18 PM
Now that I think about it... Why did you choose Elesh Norn? Why not Jin-Gitaxias, or Vorinclex? They have more of a science-y, or "survival of the fittest"-y focus, whereas Elesh Norn is all about religion.

vasharanpaladin
2015-02-07, 07:23 PM
Now that I think about it... Why did you choose Elesh Norn? Why not Jin-Gitaxias, or Vorinclex? They have more of a science-y, or "survival of the fittest"-y focus, whereas Elesh Norn is all about religion.

Look here (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/stf/137). The Flesh Singularity seeks to join all beings together into a single divine existence... by stripping everything of its flesh and sewing it all together. Elesh Norn is the only truly notable creature among the White-aligned Phyrexians, and also the current dominus of New Phyrexia as a whole. It's a pretty neat fit, really.

Primal Fury
2015-02-07, 07:35 PM
Well shut my mouth and call me Betsy, that's pretty cool. Thanks VP. :smallwink:

ThreadNecro5
2015-02-07, 08:11 PM
Now that I think about it... Why did you choose Elesh Norn? Why not Jin-Gitaxias, or Vorinclex? They have more of a science-y, or "survival of the fittest"-y focus, whereas Elesh Norn is all about religion.


Now that I think about it... Why did you choose Elesh Norn? Why not Jin-Gitaxias, or Vorinclex? They have more of a science-y, or "survival of the fittest"-y focus, whereas Elesh Norn is all about religion.

I decided on her as she seems more representative of a high level Kreikiri in what she does, the Machine Orthodoxy is about unification (of a horrific sort), and so it relates to the Kreikiri's continued rebuilding of the kyniteros as well as in how a Kreikiri 'unites' people (or at least parts of them in many cases) through the grafts and making new creatures, not to mention how the Kreikiri is making them part of something greater (e.g. the mythos itself, or literally a 'greater' being).

another reason was that the concept of the 'flesh singularity' relates to my ideas for the classes 'holocaust sun' equivalent epic level prestige class.

from a stylistic point of view Elesh Norn also seems a more recognizable character (from what iv noticed I have seen her mentioned more than the other leaders of New Phirixia, as well as seeming to function as an iconic Phyrixian in general), and she serves as an image of a character who could serve as inspiration for a more 'reserved' or 'elegant' image of a Kreikiri with many grafts, compared to the Necromorths or The Thing who are a more standard 'big face-eating monster' sort of look.

but Jin-Gitaxias and Vorinclex are also very good sources of inspiration for a Kreikiri as well and any could have been used in the banner, the three Phirixians actually sum up the three 'basic' ways I imagine a Kreikiri being roleplayed.


Edit: only after posting this I saw vasharanpaladin's comment, and yes that explains the main point better than I did, so thanks.


Here are my reviews of two more mythos

I'll start work on the corrections, but iv a couple of comments to make:


so that people can opt out of having a weird fleshy tentacle thing.

Why would someone not want it? a player could even just keep it retracted and use a normal whip if they want. plus for me at least the mythos wouldn't seem right without it coming as part of the mythos.


I think that some of the DCs should scale of of animal HD, though.

I dot understand what you mean by this. please elaborate.

Kymme
2015-02-07, 08:50 PM
Why would someone not want it? a player could even just keep it retracted and use a normal whip if they want. plus for me at least the mythos wouldn't seem right without it coming as part of the mythos.

I was thinking that some people might want to avoid the fleshwarping aspect of this class, but looking at the banner has changed my mind. I say embrace the fleshwarping.


I dot understand what you mean by this. please elaborate.

I'll retract that statement. It basically works out the fact that animals tend to have large amounts of hit dice, but low CRs (looking at you, dinosaurs).

Quarian Rex
2015-02-14, 08:46 AM
Holy CrapSnacks I love this class! I am a huge fan of monster making classes (not to mention the mutable glory that is both the Ozodrin and the Evolutionist) and this one seems to have a perfect mix of utility, depth, and maddness without going into territory that would make a DM want to throw a chair at you. Kudos.

That being said, there are a lot of interesting mechanics at work that need a lot of clarification. What follows will be a moronically long PEACH (for which I appologize) that I hope will help.




Fluff

Good fluff. It fits in well with the rest of the Mythos lore and is interesting. What more does one need? My only suggestions would be to capitalize Kyniteros (tis the name of the First, he deserves the respect) and to clean up the language a little bit for readability. For example, "...and seeing the unrivalled power of the kyniteros could only try and claim it...". Without the 'of' it sounds like the Kyniteros was trying to take its own power... and that's not right.



CLASS SKILLS: Craft (any), Handle animal, Heal, Hide, Knowledge (all), Listen, Move Silently, Ride, Search, Spot, Use magic device
Proficiencies:The Kreikiri is proficient with all simple weapons, war razors, handaxes, whips and spiked chains. They are not proficient with any armour or shields.

Skill points and selection are good for the intent of the class. Might I suggest adding Profession? It is a standard on just about every class and can provide a good cover as the town doctor or butcher who has weird stuff in the basement. Consider adding Disguise as well. Having that skill along with the Structure shifting alterations excellency covers most needs for cosmetic flesh-shaping artistry.

For the proficiencies... I'm torn. I get the mad scientist vibe that you're going for (though that can be limiting), and that this is essentially a buffer class, but he will need to get into the fight early in his career and often. All that flesh doesn't harvest itself after all, and the Kyniteros did start out as a successful hunter. Humans can't do that naked. To that end I strongly suggest adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice. With the light armor (and their NA bonus) they should be able to get to where the meat is, and with the weapon proficiency they can approach the subduing of said meat in a more thematically appropriate way. Want to only approach your twitching prey after it has been perforated via Longbow? Poke away. Want the Scythe to be your symbol as you reap the harvest of flesh? Cut a bloody swath. Want to swing a Mancatcher to find 'volunteers' for vivisection? Catch and release is the most humane option I hear. You get my point.



The kyniterosis' Mythos

Standard crunch for a mythos class. Please just change the name. Most of the other mythos classes name their mythos something short, recognizable, suitable, pronouncable, etc. Don't get me wrong, Kyniterosis is a great name... for the fluff. You just need something catchier for your most basic class ability. How about The Fleshtaker's Mythos or somesuch? Catchy, applicable, and I can say it without having to look up the spelling. Just a thought.

Also, what was the thinking for using Wisdom as the primary stat? Not criticizing, just wondering what your thoughts were.



Mythos Known:

The second is to release a created creature into the wild, honouring the division of the kyniteros’ power (earning a number of mythos points equal to 1/10th of the graft points used to create the creature.

This. This right here is pure gold. With the inclusion of this minor benefit (and, really, it is pretty minor) you have singlehandedly done what almost every other monster making class has failed to do. Give you a reason to keep making monsters. Not just to add to your personal army (that the DM will eventually banhammer/nuke), but to add to an unsuspecting nature, breaking ecosystems and making the world a wierder place. Capital job old chap.



Sundered Perfection
*Fluff*

{Whole} is a representation of the kyniteros as a hunter and as a singular being searching for perfection. this results in you gaining +1/4 of a permanent increase to a single ability score for each manifestation of a {whole} mythos you have. should the mythos not possess any manifestations you instead count has knowing a single manifestation of that mythos for this class features' purposes.

I'm not sure how I feel about this ability. At first it seems incredibly potent, then when you look at the actual abilities it is so late game that it becomes almost useless. Look at the breakdown of options for {Whole} mythos. There is a single instance in Exceptional Mythos, 5 in Fantastic, 11 in Legendary , and 9 in Exalted mythos. Almost all of those are coming from only two powers, Creeping flesh-fortress (10 instances) and Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece (9 instances). These are Legendary and Exalted powers, respectively, and so have extremely high costs associated with them as well.

What I'm trying to say here is double the increase from +1/4 to +1/2. By 12th level you could have a max of +3 to attributes (only +1 under the current rules). That's useful but not a balance problem. To get any more than that a player would need to buy Creeping flesh-fortress at 13th, wait till 14th (since all of its manifestations are advanced) then lose his nut buying every manifestation in the power. After all that he would only get another +5 to attributes. Not gamebreaking at that level and a small consolation for investing so heavily in a power that is no longer useful when he leaves home (as adventurers are prone to do). In short, this is an interesting ability, just make it vaguely worthwhile.



{Splintered} is a representation of the kyniterosis fate, to be split and shared, a collective being. This causes the Kreikiri to gain a bonus on checks to create creatures or to attach grafts equal to half of the number of your mythos with the {Splintered} label.

As an unrelated ability you gain an untyped bonus to your natural armour equal to your wisdom modifier.

Similar to the previous ability, good idea on the bonus, just laking in usefulness. You are giving a fraction of a bonus for a power selection (not manefestation selection as with {Whole}), on a skill check, and only applying it to a niche use of that skill. The hassle of the bookkeeping outweighs the benefit of the bonus. Just make it +1 on Heal checks per {Splintered} power selected. Done. Useful and no headaches.




Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos

Meat shearing butchers scalpel

This is interesting. I was originally going to gripe about the bonuses being too low (classes that give a primary weapon ability that is less effective that you could have reasonably purchased at a given level give me brain plague) but you know what? This class isn't a Soulknife. +1/3 levels is good. I suggest that you ammend the mythos point enhancing options to only be able to add enchantments that have a flat cost, no additional '+' abilities. Not only does this remove a lot of Min/Max headaches (like cheesily trying to get/spend a crap-ton of Mythos points early level because upgrading is cheaper), but this low level ability is no longer a one-stop shop for melee offence, and so no longer treading on the more melee focused classes. Also, you currently have this limited to one-handed weapons. Just add Light as it seems to have been omitted.

For the Hunter’s claw manifestation I think you should make some slight changes. Currently you can only make this into new natural attacks, not enhance existing ones. This class is all about adding grafts and attacks and such. Put them together man! Basic natural attack grafts are cheap, no need to add yet another version. Just let this be an enhancement to an existing natural weapon (graft, feat, racial, whatever) and call it a day. If you add it to one attack you should get full bonuses, if it is added to two identical natural attacks then it can be at -1 (similar to a Soulknife dual wielding). While we're here please change how you're referring to the damage profiles for some attacks. Please go with Greater and Lesser instead of Primary and Secondary. In the current wording of the ability is sounds like a pair of claws will be at -5 to hit (as per the norm with secondary natural attacks).



True Surgeon’s Skill

This is good. Versatile, it has options, stays relevent at later levels, and isn't too crazy at lower levels. Only thing that I'd add would be Flesh Reknitting Mastery having a slightly broader scope. You know how to heal faster? How about all other used of True Surgeon’s Skill can be done in half the time as well?



Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker {Splintered}

Awww Yisss. This ability and the next are the class definers. You took some big risks here and (I think) they paid off. This is also one of the places that needs the most clarification. And please change any 'ododren' references to Ozodrin. People who are unfamiliar are probably yelling at Google right now.

First, lets look at harvesting. There is a lot left unsaid here. How much of a body do you need to harvest? If the body has enough flesh to be animated as a zombie it has enough to harvest sounds good (what do you think?). You mention vivisection. Does harvesting automatically kill them (and do they get a save?). And does it have to? Can you harvest from something and keep it alive? Get half the graft points but the donor is left at 1 hp and has ability damage? If it kills them normally can they be kept alive with readied Cure spells? What about fast healing? What about regeneration? Can we have Troll farm harvesting? Please say yes.

What can we harvest from? As written it seems like everything. Golems, and Treants, and Vampires, oh my! Is that what you want? Considering influence from New Phyrexia I think you might and that's fine by me. For the mythos though you might want to split things up a bit. Have the base ability able to harvest from all the "normal" stuff, including corporeal undead (flesh is flesh, right?) but exclude Constructs, Plants, and Elementals (and maybe Outsiders too? I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one). Add a basic manifestation to be able to harvest them (call it Reap the Neverborn perhaps?). The amount of graft points for harvesting seems about right as well, though it will need playtesting.

The costs for incorporating magic item effects into grafts seems pretty good too. Expensive but doable with effort. You do need clarification on the effects of the restrictions though. If you make a magic item effect charged (50 charges, cost 1/2 unlimited use base price) or subject to uses per day [Divide by (cost = 5 divided by charges per day)] does that have an effect on the graft point cost in the same way as gold cost in the DMG/Core book? I think it probably should. You should probably also note that things like Weapon Enhancements should apply only to the features in that graft, not those in other grafts).

Clarify how the grafts interact. The effects of seperate discrete limbs/organs should be cumulative (seperate Fin grafts should allow faster swimming, seperate Basic Eye grafts should stack the bonuses for the total number of eyes, etc.) but augmentations should not be able to stack across grafts (things like Concentrated Spit and Iron Flesh should be limited by what you can fit into a single graft).

For the examples, please add more info and make sure that everything adds up. These will be templates for a very deep system. Make sure that they are right and explain as much as possible.

For example...



2 flesh (4)
1 engorged flesh (8)
1 condensed flesh (8)
1 filtering flesh (water) (2)
Lumisous flesh (1)
Four fins (8)


To create a graft that grants a 20ft swim speed, the ability to breathe underwater, immunity to atmospheric pressure, +2 to escape artist checks, +1 natural armour and creates light for a total of 25 points.

The actual total Graft cost here is 31, will take 70 mins to create and require a DC 31 Heal check to implant. You could also remove condensed flesh (8) and engorged flesh (8), instead adding condensed flesh (4) to gain pressure immunity without size change. This would reduce the Graft cost to 19, take 40 mins to make and have a DC 19 Heal check to implant. This is also an important lesson in efficient graft construction. The first version would not be doable by a lower level character. The second would.



Or to make an arm with a claw attack and that can create water the following could be used:


1 Limb (2)
1 Claw (1)
1 decanter of endless water (4,500)


For a total of 4,503 points

The Graft point cost is good at 4,503 but it would be enlightening to see that it would take 150hrs and 10mins to make and need a DC 19 (min DC 10 for features + CL 9 for Decanter) to implant. Note that when it comes to time spent crafting, Graft making is less that half the speed of actual magic item crafting (480 equivalent gold per day vs. 1,000 gold per day for magic crafting). I suggest bumping it up to 10mins per 10 Graft cost (or 1min per 1 Graft point if you want to get finicky). This sort of thing might seem like a pain but it can really help to explain a new system.



To attach a graft you need a helpless or willing creature to attach it to, and to pass a heal check with a DC equal to the Graft points spent on features and augments or 10 whichever is higher, + the total CL of the magic item components. The GM may allow you to lower the DC depending on the severity of any drawbacks you apply. Attaching a graft takes one hour, and you may take-twenty on the roll, taking twenty hours. A creature may only have a number of grafts equal to half its HD + its CON mod, and a Kreikiri may have two grafts more than their normal limit.

Bolded part is mine. Be clear in these parts. Vagueness is the enemy of a new system. This would be a good place to specify some kind of limit on natural attacks. As currently written, due to the relatively low cost of features one can get a truly asinine number of attacks even at level 1. This is not good if you ever want the class to be used in a game. How about you can add a number of additional natural attacks/attack capable limbs (doesn't matter whether you are attacking with an additional claw or sword, both count) equal to Wis bonus (min of 1) +1/3 levels. Guaranteed to add some offence but not get too stupid too quick. What do you think?

As for graft removal, is the graft intact and ready for implantation elsewhere? Do you just get the graft points? What about harvesting a creature with grafts? How about you gain the full Graft point value of the graft if it is deliberately removed or if you vivisect for Graft points, but only half after the creature is dead (instead of 50% change of being destroyed)? If there are any special abilities in the graft from Stable-Implement-of-Empowerment then you have to repeat the Knowledge check to reharvest.



Basic Manifestations:
Bounty of Flesh

Simple, useful, good.



Stable-Implement-of-Empowerment

This is a beautiful manifestation. Options galore. Still in need of some clarity though. The mutation cost, is it cumulative or no? If I take 3 mutations does it cost 8 Graft points (4+2+2) or 18 (4+6+8)? I think it should be the later. You should also state that this counts as a feature cost for the purpose of implantation DC (this distinction will be more important later). You should also limit the mutations available, for instance, no Basic Mutations allowed (they are there as a mutation sink and to make the Evolutionist class better than Commoner. Adding them to any other class would be OP), and nix the specific mutations 'Spell-like Abilities' and 'Psi-like Abilities'. The Kreikiri is powerful and versatile enough without allowing cheap access to craftable, customizable spellcasting. Besides, they already have that option through the much more expensive duplication of magic items.

As far as balancing mutation selection you should probably take a page out of the High Evolutionary PRC and say something like...

"For the purpose of placing mutations in grafts the graft maker is considered to have a mutator level equal to his Kreikiri level. The mutations granted by this ability use the Kreikiri’s mutator level to determine the limit for how many times they can be taken, but use the target's hit dice as his mutator level to determine the power of the mutations."

Does the 40 Graft point cost for creature abilities apply to implant DC? Right now it looks like it does and that is crazytown. How about adding a flat +5 to DC per ability (as if they had a CL 5, similar to what you did with the magic items). Actually, just specify that each stolen ability is considered to be a magic item addition with a flat Graft point modifier and DC nodifier. This distinction will be important later under Created Creature.



This check may be dome once per such ability and if the check is failed the parts that form that ability are destroyed in the attempt to remove them. A pass of this check grants the parts for attaching one appropriate ability, such as a spell like ability, special quality or extraordinary ability to a graft, best tracked as a separate held item until used. The parts for the ability may be extended to add that ability to the graft (at no more than one such ability per graft), giving it to any creature who whom the graft is implanted into.

I understand what you're going for here but there are things unsaid and the language needs to be cleaned up. How about something like this...

"This check may be done once per such ability during the harvesting of Graft points, and if the check is failed the parts that form that ability are destroyed in the attempt to remove them, though Graft points gained are unaffected.

Passing the check allows you to harvest enough material to implant the ability (whether extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like) into a single graft (a single harvesting cannot be used to make multiple grafts with the same stolen ability). If the ability is an augmentation to an attack (such as a Ghoul's Paralysis) it augments only the attacks of the graft it is in. Other abilities (Fast Healing, Spell Resistance, Spell-Like Abilities, etc.) are provided to the graft owner as per normal."

Maybe something like that. I think that covers your intent but avoids confusing language (I hope).



Skill-of-the-Flesh

Good, useful, solid ability. Price seems about right. Just need to specify how you want to handle prerequisites. Should probably go with prereqs needing to be met. Although... think about saying that Attribute prereqs do not need to be met. That would give you the effect of having the Kreikiri forcing his subjects to exceed their capabilities in interesting ways (having a weak monkey-thing start Power Attacking, having a barely sentient ogre-beast-creature instinctively adopt the defensive posture of Combat Expertise, etc.).



Abomination-Making Meat-Master

More grafts is always good. The change in creature type is a nice touch. Did you mean for creatures to get less powerful at high graft amounts? Aberration is a bit of a crap creature type and a strict downgrade of base stats for most things. I would probably say that the change to Monstrous Humanoid/Magical Beast would change base stats (BAB, saves, HD, etc.) but that the change to Aberration would not change creature abilities other than adding Darkvision if it wasn't already there. You might want to remove the maximum age from a creature once it gets to Aberration. They can get older and more feeble but they are no longer part of nature and just won't die...



Monster-Making Beast-Lord {Splintered}

This is pure maniacal glee in a can. And you had the stones to make it avaiable at first level. Good job sir.

Of course, this only works because you have no direct control over what you make. Which makes sense, you are making life here, not animating minions. And life can be weird.

Anyway, there are some formatting issues. Take the Created Creature section, and the last paragraphs, and place that before any of the manifestations. Right now it looks like it is exclusively part of the Man-is-Monster Restoration manifestation.



The creature will likely need training beyond its original personality.

Explain this. This right here is the kind of stuff that causes bickering at the game table. Does it need a day to get its bearings and figure out how to use the proficiencies its creature type starts with? Will it take 3 months to get it potty trained? This is the difference between an interesting RP moment that leads to something useful and a regretful expense that is a burden to the entire party.



Should the creature be sent wild or otherwise abandoned by its creator (e.g. for mythos points) it gains a level of Kreikiri within 4d3 months, along with the addition of +2 WIS to its statistics and, should it’s intelligence be lower, increase its intelligence to three as well as gaining the ability to speak common, or some other language appropriate for the region it is in. Should the creature have been mindless it retains its immunity to mind effecting effects.

I see what you're doing here but please rethink it. If every time I release a bacon-flavoured-bear-squid into the wild it will eventually become another monster maker then that is a nightmare for the DM. Say if a freed creature ever acquires an Int 12 and Wis 14 it awakens the seed of Kyniteros within them and within 4d3 months, etc., etc. If you're going to release an exponentially expanding wave of fleshshaping maddness across the world, at least let it be on purpose.



Created Creature:

Base HD, choosing creature type, Elite stat array, all good. Starting with a torso (head optional) for maximum building potential is great as well. Perhaps limit the creature types available to what you can harvest Graft points from as I mentioned inder Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker. The base capabilities, specicically movement, are good. Just add a note that the first 2 legs that are added gain an additional +5ft bonus to movement, bringing the total to 30ft for a medium sized biped. You should at least be able to replicate the base capabilities of a human.

We need to talk about what you do from there. As per what you have written, you can only make a stat modified multiple amputee of varying fertility, that just so happened to have a crapload of grafts to make it into a viable organism. This is not good, especially when combined with other aspects of this class (specifically Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration where the offspring have a very good chance of being born without the grafts providing limbs, eyes, a mouth...). That just gets weird. Not good weird. Bad weird.

Also, you have established rules for grafts (a limit of 1/2 HD + Con bonus number of grafts), do not confuse things by giving these guys a limit of 10 +1/5 additional Graft points spent. It's unnecessary and makes people think the rules for grafts have changed half way through the class. Just add features and such directly to the creature. These will dictate what the creature actually is for the purposes of breeding and such.

Since the creation DC isn't based on Graft point expenditure (I think that was a good call), you need a reason for the Kreikiri to not just stack ALL the Graft points into one possibly self-replicating creature of unstoppable horror. To do this, jack the costs. Jack'em way up. I'm thinking that a good balance point would be 5x the cost of Features and Augments and 3x the cost of Magic Items effects. This may sound like a lot, but hear me out. Features are cheap. Even at 5x cost you won't break the bank trying to make Uruk-hai 2.0 to help in the establishment of New Mordor. If however you want to make a 20 HD self-replicating Dragon-Kraken whose eyes are Mirror of life trapping, that will be a game-breaking labour of love that the DM will have plenty of time to screw with/deal with. It also presents some interesting choices for players, giving them an opportunity to make a more simplified organism that can then be further specialized/upgraded with further grafting (What's that? The new batch of Uruk-hai just hatched? We need more Dragoons, so send them over the the Fleshvats for their Battlechitin!).



Augments:
Enhanced Potential

Change the cost to 10 (as per above) and make the cost cumulative (like in your example), not doubling. There will be the need for a lot of stat mods and none of them are free (size change with the Flesh feature does no provide stat mods) so no need to go completely gonzo. That would make your example have a cost of 10+20+30= 60 Graft points for a +6 modifier.



Decreased Potential

This is good and serves its purpose. Just get rid of the last sentence as it will serve no purpose. And of course change the cost to -5.



Advanced form

Base cost of 25 will lead to a cost progression of 25, 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, etc. Since HD are the main boost to a creatures power I think this is Ok.



Transient Skill

Having a base cost of 100 that doubles per level seems to be good. What I said for HD is even more so for actual class levels. 700 for 3 Class levels seems fine. Maybe.



Hidden Power

Cost to 10 and shift the wording to something like,

"The creature can conceal and/or release one or more of its Features as a swift action. This is an extraordinary ability. Each purchase of this augment effect a single Feature (and associated augmentations) the creature naturally possesses, and it may be purchased additional times. You may place additional restrictions on this ability, such as a creature that can only use its tentacles at night."



Cascade of Life

This is the big one here. This is the one that lets you put all your eggs in one basket and then have the basket multiply. I don't think that this is a feature that should have a flat cost. That would either be prohibitive for a minor creature or trivial for something that is already breaking the bank. I think that if they breed it should double the Graft point cost of the creature. Again, Uruk-hai 2.0 is still possible and achievable, but the baby Tiamat being cooked up in the basement might be better off unable to lay eggs.

As for reproduction... simplify it and restrict it. You already have a reproduction/gestation/development ability in the Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration Excellency. Use it and flesh it out. By default, this ability should probably require sexual reproduction between opposite gendered but otherwise identical creatures. For a cost (50 Graft points?) you should allow reproduction with a specific creature (or creature subtype) that shares a Creature Type. Thus you would have to make a Humanoid if you wanted to breed it with Humans (but Elves wouldn't work), and a Monstrous Humanoid if you wanted to breed it with a Harpy (but not a Minotaur). This would provoke some strategic thinking from the player as it might be better to make a weaker Humanoid that the stronger Monstrous Humanoid for breeding purposes.

As for the rest (gestation/development/lifespan manipulation, tri-sexual mating requirements, force-grown asexual mitosis, etc.) leave that for Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration. Just add a note that if Cascade of Life has been added to a creature then the options from Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration can be added (at tripple cost as per magic items perhaps?).



Enhanced lifecycle

Replace all of this with a reference to Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration as per above.




The newly created creatures mind is mostly feral within the parameters you designed it with and requires training for it to be of great usage.

I've said it before, I'll say it again, this sort of thing needs to be sorted out. The time for fluff is at the beginning of the Mythos. This is the time of the crunch. What does the quoted sentence even mean? Is it unable to use racial/class abilities and feats? Will it attack you? Can it speak? How long does this last? Be specific here. Personally I think you should just get rid of statments like this. You are engaging in a nigh-divine act of creation (and, if you accept my suggestions, paying an arm and a leg to do so), let the fruits of those labour stand on their own. If it is given a level of Fighter, let it don armor, pick up a blade, and stride into battle from the moment it opens it's eyes. If you make something with animal inteligence (because until hugher levels that is the best way to maintain control of your creations) then take the time to train it, but if you grant a creature intelligence let it use it. If you have seen the movie Momento, think of it like that. When they come into being they have no context for anything, but they know what they are, what they can do, and who made them. What happens from then is where it gets interesting.



To create an creature takes a number of hours equal to the total points used on the grafts you include divided by 10, rounding up (so for example for a creature with grafts costing 38, 40 and 6 points it would take 9 hours.) after this time you need to check whether the creation was successful, resulting needing a heal check with a DC of 20, + the total HD of the creature, + the number of individual grafts it contains. On a failed check the points spent are wasted.

If you agree with what I've been saying so far then this part needs to be adjusted. Since the base cost for features has been multiplied by 5 then the time to create will be a number of hours equal to the total Graft points used on the creature from all sources divided by 50 (round up). The DC should be 20 + the total HD of the creature + 1/2 the total CL (round down?) of all magic item effects being added to the creature. The real danger here is essentially breeding magic items so lets incorporate that into the DC. Also, considering the increase on cost losing all Graft points on a failed check seems harsh. How about lose 20%?



Advanced manifestations
Flesh-Altering Master

I like this. It adds a lot of possibilities. change the cost to be a range from 20-100 and you're good.



Man-is-Monster Restoration

I have to say it... this manifestation is a mess. I get the whole Frankenstein/Six Million Dollar Man thing that you are going for but this is the worst possible way to do it. It's cumbersome, scales horribly, irrevocably takes a hatchet to someones character sheet and then tries to make them play the smoking ruin. That may have sounded more harsh than I intended.

I don't know if you can salvage this but I'll point out some of the things that stick out most. First, having the DC be based on total damage on a dead or dying creature is insane. Hp scale so much faster than skill checks that after 1st level it is an excercise in futility. If you really want to do it this way just have the DC be based on the absolute value of the negative Hp. Depending on the death this will be a respectible DC (especially after modifiers due to death and time dead) but nothing crazy. You say that a natural 20 that doesn't succeed still has a 50% chance of success and that you can take 20 to achieve this but how long does the initial harvesting take?

Next comes the bafflingly bad part of the ability. You have a 75% chance to lose every single thing that makes a character what they are. Every racial trait, every feat, every skill, every class level, every single class ability in the few class levels that you manage to retain. And your ability scores? Not even a chance to retain them. 2d6 points gone from each. Not damage, not drain, just gone. With the now shattered scraps of what once was a character the Kreikiri must now hemorrhage massive ammounts of Graft points (even before my recomendations class levels and attributes were some of the most expensive additions) with the impossible task of trying to restore what was taken (impossible because there is no way to return lost class abilities or skill points, and no Kreikiri worth his salt will have enough spare Graft points laying around to do a good job of this). Sure, you can add some tentacles or wings and whatnot but you could have done that with grafts anyway.

To add insult to injury you force the soul back into the crippled husk that it just left. No save. No chance to deny the 'resurrection'. A broken Barbarian with a 75% chance of being unable to Rage. A imbecile Wizard with a 75% chance of being unable to cast a spell. This is the most Trollish thing I have seen in a long, long while. I really want to hear the story about the jerk in you gaming group and their Mary-Sue character that made you create this ability just to be used on them.

In all seriousness though, this ability is not your best work. It not so good. I move on now.



Cry of the Consumed {Whole}

I like this one. It provides some interesting effects that I haven't seen before. Being able to make perception/knowledge checks on your memories (or those you have consumed) provides some great opportunities in the game.



Beastmaster's Coiled Lash {Splintered}

Fun with flesh whips? I like it. Just need some clarity on some things. You now threaten the entire area of the whips reach, this is good, but does using the whip still provoke attacks of opportunity as if using a ranged weapon? As written it still does. Was this your intent?



The whip is considered a primary natural attack in all respects apart from using the abilities of a whip weapon.

Elaborate. Do you still get iterative attacks? I think so but this statement confuses things. When you say Primary attack are you refering to your damage chart in the first post? If you are changing the damage spell it out. Also reinforces the need for you to not use Primary and Secondary as the names for your damage values.



Advanced manifestations:
Beast Mastering Hand

This is a good ability but the mechanics just seem a little cumbersome/backwards. A full minute seems too long of an activation time for this. If you can spend this much out of combat time with an animal you might as well keep rolling Handle Animal and train it. This seems like ir should be a quick and dirty battle of wills/training session.

Have it take a Full-Round Action to make a Handle Animal check against DC 10+target creatures HD. Target creature makes a Will save or be effected similar to Dominate Animal for 1 min for every point your Handle Animal check was above the DC with a minimum duration of 1 round if you only hit on or below the DC. This allows the Kreikiri to punch above their weight by Dominating dinosaurs or what-have-you but such a beast will need constant close range maintainence to keep in line. Pray it doesn't roll a 20 on the Will save.



Combat Tendril

As above, clarify the damage aspect. Is damage 1d3->1d4 as per Whip or 1d6->1d8 as per your Primary natural attacks? Also, if the original Fleshwhip still provokes attacks of opportunity, this would be the place to get rid of that limitation.



... it may be used as an additional limb, unable to be replaced with a graft or to wield a weapon.

What do you mean here? Does it now officially count as a Tentacle feature? Can it be augmented (increasing reach and such) with supplementary grafts? Or do you just mean that it is now prehensile and can grab stuff? Clarity my man.




Paralytic Barb

This is good. Quite good really. You are essentially doing Pathfinder poison here and that is good. With the saves change them to needing to be consecutive so you don't have to keep track of saves fron 6 rounds ago.



Unconsciousness from this poison always lasts for one hour; with additional doses resetting the duration should the target fail another save.

This requires some comment. At no time does the poison mention inflicting unconsciousness. At 0 Dex one is completely paralysed, but not unconscious. If this poison causes someone to pass out for an hour when it causes Dex damage to someone already at 0 Dex (which I think is your intent) explicitly say so.



The poison may be reapplied by the Kreikiri during the use of any mythos or manifestations that require surgery, but doing so extends the time took by +10 munities per application.

Just get rid of this line altogether. It serves no purpose and is just a bookkeeping hassle/timesink. For example, if taking 20 on a graft implantation (a 20 hour procedure) using this would cost another 4 hours to keep them out cold. For no reason. Once at 0 Dex the patient (victim?) is paralyzed for the day (till they heal at least 1 point of ability damage) and cannot disrupt the procedure. Keeping them unconscious is merely a courtesy, one that should not take 10 mins to apply a quick nick.



Basic manifestations

These are all good and don't really need any elaboration.


That is it for the first part. I'll get to the other mythos and excellencies soon(ish).

ThreadNecro5
2015-02-17, 09:17 PM
Holy CrapSnacks I love this class! I am a huge fan of monster making classes (not to mention the mutable glory that is both the Ozodrin and the Evolutionist) and this one seems to have a perfect mix of utility, depth, and maddnesswithout going into territory that would make a DM want to throw a chair at you. Kudos.

That being said, there are a lot of interesting mechanics at work that need a lot of clarification. What follows will be a moronically long PEACH (for which I appologize) that I hope will help.

yep, its always good to hear someone liking your homebrew, and the long PEACHing is not a problem. i should point out now that I wil only be able to make changes tomorrow, as I will be going to bed after I write this.



Good fluff. It fits in well with the rest of the Mythos lore and is interesting. What more does one need? My only suggestions would be to capitalize Kyniteros (tis the name of the First, he deserves the respect) and to clean up the language a little bit for readability. For example, "...and seeing the unrivalled power of the kyniteros could only try and claim it...". Without the 'of' it sounds like the Kyniteros was trying to take its own power... and that's not right.

i'll get to work on fixing capitalization issues (they'll tend to crop up in my stuff) , and with the bit you quote (if its the bit I think it is) its supposed to refer to the Kyniteros wanting to try to take the Monsters power.


Skill points and selection are good for the intent of the class. Might I suggest adding Profession? It is a standard on just about every class and can provide a good cover as the town doctor or butcher who has weird stuff in the basement. Consider adding Disguise as well. Having that skill along with the Structure shifting alterations excellency covers most needs for cosmetic flesh-shaping artistry.

many of the other mythos classes lack the Profession skill, I always thought the whole 'town doctor' angle could be covered by the heal skill. as for disguise i'm not to sure, mundane disguises doesn't seem that related to the narrative of the Kyniteros, but I can wait for a second opinion or mull the die over.


For the proficiencies... I'm torn. I get the mad scientist vibe that you're going for (though that can be limiting), and that this is essentially a buffer class, but he will need to get into the fight early in his career and often. All that flesh doesn't harvest itself after all, and the Kyniteros did start out as a successful hunter. Humans can't do that naked. To that end I strongly suggest adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice. With the light armor (and their NA bonus) they should be able to get to where the meat is, and with the weapon proficiency they can approach the subduing of said meat in a more thematically appropriate way. Want to only approach your twitching prey after it has been perforated via Longbow? Poke away. Want the Scythe to be your symbol as you reap the harvest of flesh? Cut a bloody swath. Want to swing a Mancatcher to find 'volunteers' for vivisection? Catch and release is the most humane option I hear. You get my point.

you make a good argument here, the light armor proficiency also seems strangely fitting, getting used to wearing another creatures skin before another creature becomes your skin.


Humans can't do that naked
they can't? now someone tells me!:smallwink:


Standard crunch for a mythos class. Please just change the name. Most of the other mythos classes name their mythos something short, recognizable, suitable, pronouncable, etc. Don't get me wrong, Kyniterosis is a great name... for the fluff. You just need something catchier for your most basic class ability. How about The Fleshtaker's Mythos or somesuch? Catchy, applicable, and I can say it without having to look up the spelling. Just a thought.

weel see if I can think of something, but the Olethrofex uses its titans name.


Also, what was the thinking for using Wisdom as the primary stat? Not criticizing, just wondering what your thoughts were.

I used it because its the statistic used in the heal skill and in the more 'nature-y' classes like druids which seems appropriate.


This. This right here is pure gold. With the inclusion of this minor benefit (and, really, it is pretty minor) you have singlehandedly done what almost every other monster making class has failed to do. Give you a reason to keep making monsters. Not just to add to your personal army (that the DM will eventually banhammer/nuke), but to add to an unsuspecting nature, breaking ecosystems and making the world a wierder place. Capital job old chap.

thanks


I'm not sure how I feel about this ability. At first it seems incredibly potent, then when you look at the actual abilities it is so late game that it becomes almost useless. Look at the breakdown of options for {Whole} mythos. There is a single instance in Exceptional Mythos, 5 in Fantastic, 11 in Legendary , and 9 in Exalted mythos. Almost all of those are coming from only two powers, Creeping flesh-fortress (10 instances) and Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece (9 instances). These are Legendary and Exalted powers, respectively, and so have extremely high costs associated with them as well.

What I'm trying to say here is double the increase from +1/4 to +1/2. By 12th level you could have a max of +3 to attributes (only +1 under the current rules). That's useful but not a balance problem. To get any more than that a player would need to buy Creeping flesh-fortress at 13th, wait till 14th (since all of its manifestations are advanced) then lose his nut buying every manifestation in the power. After all that he would only get another +5 to attributes. Not gamebreaking at that level and a small consolation for investing so heavily in a power that is no longer useful when he leaves home (as adventurers are prone to do). In short, this is an interesting ability, just make it vaguely worthwhile.

yeah, iv got to agree with you here, this was originally balanced with a mythos that never came to fruition in mind, and the limitations were left in place.


Similar to the previous ability, good idea on the bonus, just laking in usefulness. You are giving a fraction of a bonus for a power selection (not manefestation selection as with {Whole}), on a skill check, and only applying it to a niche use of that skill. The hassle of the bookkeeping outweighs the benefit of the bonus. Just make it +1 on Heal checks per {Splintered} power selected. Done. Useful and no headaches.

i'll do this to.


This is interesting. I was originally going to gripe about the bonuses being too low (classes that give a primary weapon ability that is less effective that you could have reasonably purchased at a given level give me brain plague) but you know what? This class isn't a Soulknife. +1/3 levels is good. I suggest that you ammend the mythos point enhancing options to only be able to add enchantments that have a flat cost, no additional '+' abilities. Not only does this remove a lot of Min/Max headaches (like cheesily trying to get/spend a crap-ton of Mythos points early level because upgrading is cheaper), but this low level ability is no longer a one-stop shop for melee offence, and so no longer treading on the more melee focused classes. Also, you currently have this limited to one-handed weapons. Just add Light as it seems to have been omitted.

For the Hunter’s claw manifestation I think you should make some slight changes. Currently you can only make this into new natural attacks, not enhance existing ones. This class is all about adding grafts and attacks and such. Put them together man! Basic natural attack grafts are cheap, no need to add yet another version. Just let this be an enhancement to an existing natural weapon (graft, feat, racial, whatever) and call it a day. If you add it to one attack you should get full bonuses, if it is added to two identical natural attacks then it can be at -1 (similar to a Soulknife dual wielding). While we're here please change how you're referring to the damage profiles for some attacks. Please go with Greater and Lesser instead of Primary and Secondary. In the current wording of the ability is sounds like a pair of claws will be at -5 to hit (as per the norm with secondary natural attacks).

I'm not quite following what you mean int he first paragraph about upgrading being cheaper at lower levels, but its probably just a case of my bad wording or the need of a comma somewhere cause an unforeseen interaction.

as for the secondary attacks they were to be treated as all seconder natural attacks are. most things iv seen that offer two natural attacks are like this while a single attack is primary.



This is good. Versatile, it has options, stays relevent at later levels, and isn't too crazy at lower levels. Only thing that I'd add would be Flesh Reknitting Mastery having a slightly broader scope. You know how to heal faster? How about all other used of True Surgeon’s Skill can be done in half the time as well?

i'll keep this as it is as its still nigh-unlimited healing. as an idea I think I could make it also stop bleed effects and allow you to reattach severed limbs.


Awww Yisss. This ability and the next are the class definers. You took some big risks here and (I think) they paid off. This is also one of the places that needs the most clarification. And please change any 'ododren' references to Ozodrin. People who are unfamiliar are probably yelling at Google right now.

this mythos is one that went though a lot of different wordings, so it may be a bit disjointed. I will fix it as I do the rest. as for the spelling error it seems my dyslexia strikes again.


First, lets look at harvesting. There is a lot left unsaid here. How much of a body do you need to harvest? If the body has enough flesh to be animated as a zombie it has enough to harvest sounds good (what do you think?). You mention vivisection. Does harvesting automatically kill them (and do they get a save?). And does it have to? Can you harvest from something and keep it alive? Get half the graft points but the donor is left at 1 hp and has ability damage? If it kills them normally can they be kept alive with readied Cure spells? What about fast healing? What about regeneration? Can we have Troll farm harvesting? Please say yes.

What can we harvest from? As written it seems like everything. Golems, and Treants, and Vampires, oh my! Is that what you want? Considering influence from New Phyrexia I think you might and that's fine by me. For the mythos though you might want to split things up a bit. Have the base ability able to harvest from all the "normal" stuff, including corporeal undead (flesh is flesh, right?) but exclude Constructs, Plants, and Elementals (and maybe Outsiders too? I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one). Add a basic manifestation to be able to harvest them (call it Reap the Neverborn perhaps?). The amount of graft points for harvesting seems about right as well, though it will need playtesting.

I will get to clarifying this as well. as for what you can harvest, yes you can harvest anything and everything. I should add the limitation that a ghost touch weapon is needed to harvest incorporeal creatures however.


The costs for incorporating magic item effects into grafts seems pretty good too. Expensive but doable with effort. You do need clarification on the effects of the restrictions though. If you make a magic item effect charged (50 charges, cost 1/2 unlimited use base price) or subject to uses per day [Divide by (cost = 5 divided by charges per day)] does that have an effect on the graft point cost in the same way as gold cost in the DMG/Core book? I think it probably should. You should probably also note that things like Weapon Enhancements should apply only to the features in that graft, not those in other grafts).

Clarify how the grafts interact. The effects of seperate discrete limbs/organs should be cumulative (seperate Fin grafts should allow faster swimming, seperate Basic Eye grafts should stack the bonuses for the total number of eyes, etc.) but augmentations should not be able to stack across grafts (things like Concentrated Spit and Iron Flesh should be limited by what you can fit into a single graft).

For the examples, please add more info and make sure that everything adds up. These will be templates for a very deep system. Make sure that they are right and explain as much as possible.

the issues here have been noted and will be corrected.

I have to apologize that I will need to end this reply here but this is taking longer than expected and it is late. as I said corrections will be made tomorrow. overall I agree with your changes and will comment on the second half of your PEACHing once iv finished the changes above.

ThreadNecro5
2015-02-19, 06:05 PM
Ok, I've think iv added all of the first set of changes, and now I'll reply to the second half of your comment.


Of course, this only works because you have no direct control over what you make. Which makes sense, you are making life here, not animating minions. And life can be weird.

yep this lack of control is a major source of what can almost be called balance for the implications of this ability, and the reason handle animal is a class skill, but iv also just realized you'll need diplomacy for smarter creatures, so i'm adding a new class skill.


Anyway, there are some formatting issues. Take the Created Creature section, and the last paragraphs, and place that before any of the manifestations. Right now it looks like it is exclusively part of the Man-is-Monster Restoration manifestation.

the formatting here worked better on the word document I keep the 'master copy' on but I will adjust it for here.


Explain this. This right here is the kind of stuff that causes bickering at the game table. Does it need a day to get its bearings and figure out how to use the proficiencies its creature type starts with? Will it take 3 months to get it potty trained? This is the difference between an interesting RP moment that leads to something useful and a regretful expense that is a burden to the entire party.

that being corrected


I see what you're doing here but please rethink it. If every time I release a bacon-flavoured-bear-squid into the wild it will eventually become another monster maker then that is a nightmare for the DM. Say if a freed creature ever acquires an Int 12 and Wis 14 it awakens the seed of Kyniteros within them and within 4d3 months, etc., etc. If you're going to release an exponentially expanding wave of fleshshaping maddness across the world, at least let it be on purpose.

I will add your idea. also making a mental note for a creature to stat up some time.


Base HD, choosing creature type, Elite stat array, all good. Starting with a torso (head optional) for maximum building potential is great as well. Perhaps limit the creature types available to what you can harvest Graft points from as I mentioned inder Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker. The base capabilities, specicically movement, are good. Just add a note that the first 2 legs that are added gain an additional +5ft bonus to movement, bringing the total to 30ft for a medium sized biped. You should at least be able to replicate the base capabilities of a human.

I originally thought of using that idea for creature types but decided it would be too much bookkeeping for to little gain. I will also make that mention.


We need to talk about what you do from there. As per what you have written, you can only make a stat modified multiple amputee of varying fertility, that just so happened to have a crapload of grafts to make it into a viable organism. This is not good, especially when combined with other aspects of this class (specifically Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration where the offspring have a very good chance of being born without the grafts providing limbs, eyes, a mouth...). That just gets weird. Not good weird. Bad weird.

I forgot to add a note that the grafts added during initial creation are a natural part of the creatures body and cease being actual grafts. as for the crimes against nature that Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration creates, that's what happens when an ability is born of sudden inspiration and a name idea someone gave me instead of being something I planned around existing. will fix it.


Also, you have established rules for grafts (a limit of 1/2 HD + Con bonus number of grafts), do not confuse things by giving these guys a limit of 10 +1/5 additional Graft points spent. It's unnecessary and makes people think the rules for grafts have changed half way through the class. Just add features and such directly to the creature. These will dictate what the creature actually is for the purposes of breeding and such.

I'll make it clearer.


Since the creation DC isn't based on Graft point expenditure (I think that was a good call), you need a reason for the Kreikiri to not just stack ALL the Graft points into one possibly self-replicating creature of unstoppable horror. To do this, jack the costs. Jack'em way up. I'm thinking that a good balance point would be 5x the cost of Features and Augments and 3x the cost of Magic Items effects. This may sound like a lot, but hear me out. Features are cheap. Even at 5x cost you won't break the bank trying to make Uruk-hai 2.0 to help in the establishment of New Mordor. If however you want to make a 20 HD self-replicating Dragon-Kraken whose eyes are Mirror of life trapping, that will be a game-breaking labour of love that the DM will have plenty of time to screw with/deal with. It also presents some interesting choices for players, giving them an opportunity to make a more simplified organism that can then be further specialized/upgraded with further grafting (What's that? The new batch of Uruk-hai just hatched? We need more Dragoons, so send them over the the Fleshvats for their Battlechitin!).

will jack the points. I now also consider the possibility of the Dragon-Kraken's existence the reason I give ride as a class skill.


Change the cost to 10 (as per above) and make the cost cumulative (like in your example), not doubling. There will be the need for a lot of stat mods and none of them are free (size change with the Flesh feature does no provide stat mods) so no need to go completely gonzo. That would make your example have a cost of 10+20+30= 60 Graft points for a +6 modifier.

will do.


This is good and serves its purpose. Just get rid of the last sentence as it will serve no purpose. And of course change the cost to -5.


Cost to 10 and shift the wording to something like,

"The creature can conceal and/or release one or more of its Features as a swift action. This is an extraordinary ability. Each purchase of this augment effect a single Feature (and associated augmentations) the creature naturally possesses, and it may be purchased additional times. You may place additional restrictions on this ability, such as a creature that can only use its tentacles at night."

will do something similar to this.


This is the big one here. This is the one that lets you put all your eggs in one basket and then have the basket multiply. I don't think that this is a feature that should have a flat cost. That would either be prohibitive for a minor creature or trivial for something that is already breaking the bank. I think that if they breed it should double the Graft point cost of the creature. Again, Uruk-hai 2.0 is still possible and achievable, but the baby Tiamat being cooked up in the basement might be better off unable to lay eggs.

As for reproduction... simplify it and restrict it. You already have a reproduction/gestation/development ability in the Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration Excellency. Use it and flesh it out. By default, this ability should probably require sexual reproduction between opposite gendered but otherwise identical creatures. For a cost (50 Graft points?) you should allow reproduction with a specific creature (or creature subtype) that shares a Creature Type. Thus you would have to make a Humanoid if you wanted to breed it with Humans (but Elves wouldn't work), and a Monstrous Humanoid if you wanted to breed it with a Harpy (but not a Minotaur). This would provoke some strategic thinking from the player as it might be better to make a weaker Humanoid that the stronger Monstrous Humanoid for breeding purposes.

As for the rest (gestation/development/lifespan manipulation, tri-sexual mating requirements, force-grown asexual mitosis, etc.) leave that for Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration. Just add a note that if Cascade of Life has been added to a creature then the options from Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration can be added (at tripple cost as per magic items perhaps?).

I prefer your ideas, will include.


I've said it before, I'll say it again, this sort of thing needs to be sorted out. The time for fluff is at the beginning of the Mythos. This is the time of the crunch. What does the quoted sentence even mean? Is it unable to use racial/class abilities and feats? Will it attack you? Can it speak? How long does this last? Be specific here. Personally I think you should just get rid of statments like this. You are engaging in a nigh-divine act of creation (and, if you accept my suggestions, paying an arm and a leg to do so), let the fruits of those labour stand on their own. If it is given a level of Fighter, let it don armor, pick up a blade, and stride into battle from the moment it opens it's eyes. If you make something with animal inteligence (because until hugher levels that is the best way to maintain control of your creations) then take the time to train it, but if you grant a creature intelligence let it use it. If you have seen the movie Momento, think of it like that. When they come into being they have no context for anything, but they know what they are, what they can do, and who made them. What happens from then is where it gets interesting.

will remove this part, and thanks for the movie recommendation.
.

If you agree with what I've been saying so far then this part needs to be adjusted. Since the base cost for features has been multiplied by 5 then the time to create will be a number of hours equal to the total Graft points used on the creature from all sources divided by 50 (round up). The DC should be 20 + the total HD of the creature + 1/2 the total CL (round down?) of all magic item effects being added to the creature. The real danger here is essentially breeding magic items so lets incorporate that into the DC. Also, considering the increase on cost losing all Graft points on a failed check seems harsh. How about lose 20%?

will include these ideas.


I like this. It adds a lot of possibilities. change the cost to be a range from 20-100 and you're good.

will to this a spart of the point cost increase.


I have to say it... this manifestation is a mess. I get the whole Frankenstein/Six Million Dollar Man thing that you are going for but this is the worst possible way to do it. It's cumbersome, scales horribly, irrevocably takes a hatchet to someones character sheet and then tries to make them play the smoking ruin. That may have sounded more harsh than I intended.

yeah, iv no idea what I was thinking with this. it will receive heavy alteration and improvement.


Next comes the bafflingly bad part of the ability. You have a 75% chance to lose every single thing that makes a character what they are. Every racial trait, every feat, every skill, every class level, every single class ability in the few class levels that you manage to retain. And your ability scores? Not even a chance to retain them. 2d6 points gone from each. Not damage, not drain, just gone. With the now shattered scraps of what once was a character the Kreikiri must now hemorrhage massive ammounts of Graft points (even before my recomendations class levels and attributes were some of the most expensive additions) with the impossible task of trying to restore what was taken (impossible because there is no way to return lost class abilities or skill points, and no Kreikiri worth his salt will have enough spare Graft points laying around to do a good job of this). Sure, you can add some tentacles or wings and whatnot but you could have done that with grafts anyway.

this manifestation will be made better, the possibility of leaving a creature in a horrible wreck of a life with your help is however an intentional, if badly implemented, option.


To add insult to injury you force the soul back into the crippled husk that it just left. No save. No chance to deny the 'resurrection'. A broken Barbarian with a 75% chance of being unable to Rage. A imbecile Wizard with a 75% chance of being unable to cast a spell. This is the most Trollish thing I have seen in a long, long while. I really want to hear the story about the jerk in you gaming group and their Mary-Sue character that made you create this ability just to be used on them.

the loosing of such significant class features wasn't thought of when I wrote this. the forcing the creature back to life thing however is very intentional (see Fran and the Dark Eldar in the character banner).



Fun with flesh whips? I like it. Just need some clarity on some things. You now threaten the entire area of the whips reach, this is good, but does using the whip still provoke attacks of opportunity as if using a ranged weapon? As written it still does. Was this your intent?

I originally never noticed that it threaten attacks of opportunity, and will mention that it does not (or should I make it part of the combat tendril manifestation?).


Elaborate. Do you still get iterative attacks? I think so but this statement confuses things. When you say Primary attack are you refering to your damage chart in the first post? If you are changing the damage spell it out. Also reinforces the need for you to not use Primary and Secondary as the names for your damage values.

will explain this better. as for the damage value chart it specifies that its values only apply when the mythos itself does not state a damage value itself.
.

This is a good ability but the mechanics just seem a little cumbersome/backwards. A full minute seems too long of an activation time for this. If you can spend this much out of combat time with an animal you might as well keep rolling Handle Animal and train it. This seems like ir should be a quick and dirty battle of wills/training session.

perhaps make it three rounds?


Have it take a Full-Round Action to make a Handle Animal check against DC 10+target creatures HD. Target creature makes a Will save or be effected similar to Dominate Animal for 1 min for every point your Handle Animal check was above the DC with a minimum duration of 1 round if you only hit on or below the DC. This allows the Kreikiri to punch above their weight by Dominating dinosaurs or what-have-you but such a beast will need constant close range maintainence to keep in line. Pray it doesn't roll a 20 on the Will save.

I'll think this over.


As above, clarify the damage aspect. Is damage 1d3->1d4 as per Whip or 1d6->1d8 as per your Primary natural attacks? Also, if the original Fleshwhip still provokes attacks of opportunity, this would be the place to get rid of that limitation.

will specify.


What do you mean here? Does it now officially count as a Tentacle feature? Can it be augmented (increasing reach and such) with supplementary grafts? Or do you just mean that it is now prehensile and can grab stuff? Clarity my man.

is prehensile, will elaborate.



This requires some comment. At no time does the poison mention inflicting unconsciousness. At 0 Dex one is completely paralysed, but not unconscious. If this poison causes someone to pass out for an hour when it causes Dex damage to someone already at 0 Dex (which I think is your intent) explicitly say so.

I goofed p here and will add that the poison inflicts unconscious when the target is paralysed.


Just get rid of this line altogether. It serves no purpose and is just a bookkeeping hassle/timesink. For example, if taking 20 on a graft implantation (a 20 hour procedure) using this would cost another 4 hours to keep them out cold. For no reason. Once at 0 Dex the patient (victim?) is paralyzed for the day (till they heal at least 1 point of ability damage) and cannot disrupt the procedure. Keeping them unconscious is merely a courtesy, one that should not take 10 mins to apply a quick nick.

will remove.

Quarian Rex
2015-02-20, 10:30 AM
Continuing with the PEACH, this time for the Fantastic Mythos. I thought it would have gone quicker/been shorter but I had to take a few days to mull over some of the mythos before I could gather my thoughts.



Kreikiri Fantastic Mythos

Anatomy-twisting bestial-genesis {Splintered}

This is a great feature. I like it a lot. Just need more clarity.

When making the companion does it have to be created as an Animal creature type? If not then it needs to be said. Do you need to drop Intelligence to animal levels? If not then say so. Since its HD automatically equal the class level just mention that the Advanced Form and Transient Skill augments are not available.

And, of course, if you agree with my suggestions for Monster-Making Beast-Lord then the Graft points available for creation will need to go up to levelx25+15 (with the +15 adjusted depending on whether you change the cost of a torso).



Basic Manifestations:
Continued experimentation

Nice option. 'Nuff said.



Re-genesis gambit

This is the kind of glorious sexy-pants, useful weirdness that I come to homebrew for. Don't change a thing.



Power-stealing aberrant-liege {Whole}

This is one of those abilities that looks a lot more useful than it really is. It only really comes into its own once you have all of the manefestations and even then it is of medium usefulness. And I am quite fine with that. Its good as is.



Bestial shredding-blur

I have to admit, I don't really get the base ability. I mean, mechanically I understand what is happening. I just don't see why this is particularly useful. You have a fairly clunky way to squeeze in some extra attacks at significant penalty. Why not just add extra limbs and attack normally? Am I missing something?

Also, how are you picturing this visually? Multiple claw hands on the same wrist? Claw hand on elbow?



Advanced manifestations:
Sea of live blades

This is a fairly potent ability, effectively multiplying ones natural attacks. In fact, it is a slightly worse version of the main ability that does the same thing without the unprecedented oddness of multiple natural attacks on the same limb. Unless there is something I am grossly overlooking, it might be an idea to scrap the main ability and replace it with this manifestation.



Many-toothed whirlwind

A useful addition. Also, if you make Sea of live blades the main skill this becomes the perfect complement as an advanced manifestation.



Organ-tearing freakish-overlord {Splintered}

More grafting options? All good.



Basic manifestations
Lord of warped flesh

Change ododren ->Ozodrin. Might want to restrict it to non-epic prestige classes. Already stole a big prize from one. Best not to push ones luck.



Trophy of worldly champions

Simple, useful, almost a must have ability.



Eldritch living-weapon

Another indispensable ability.



Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry {Splintered}[size]

Might want to fix the size formating on the title of this one. Great ability (good idea, I like what it initially does) but there are some odd consequences of how it's being done. Do you realize that this gives a 7th level character up to 20mins of effective Confusion/Dominate on anyone they can inflict a single point of damage on with no Spell Resistance check and no Save (the saves you have are just to determine how complete the control is, not to break it). Let that sink in for a moment. I don't think that was exactly what you were going for here (or maybe it was, I'm not sure).

Also, the nature of the initial ability makes the vast majority of the (somewhat clunky and unintuitive) rules for control a moot point. There is a very good chance that the victim of this mythos will be unconscious for at least an hour, if not already dead. Remember, any nonlethal damage over a characters max. Hp becomes lethal. Even mild optimization (not hard for someone who can add additional natural attacks willy-nilly and probably has a hefty Wis bonus) will result in the ability to absolutely shred mooks. In the event that you cannot drop someone (the dice gods frowned upon you, you be a wuss, or you took on the BBEG) be more reasonable about the outcome. Something like Will save vs non-magical Confusion with a duration of 5-Wis bonus rounds (min. of 1 round). During this time the Kreikiri who transformed them (and no-one else) can use the Handle Animal skill (to "Handle" them to perform a task if you share a language, and to “Push” them if you do not) as if they were an animal (as per the skill). The effects of Confusion are suspended while performing such a task.

This provides temporary advantage during combat but doesn't allow you to turn Darth Vader into your be-tentacled lapdog. Granted, this leaves out a lot of the mind-slave minion making stuff that was in here. And that it perfectly fine. Want to know why? This...


Additionally you may consider them a creature you made for the purposes of the ‘Mental-lords’ unity’ mythos.

You already have a minion mind-control mythos. Let it be used. Granted, the control can't be automatic (actual created creatures are born with the instincts, these are inflicted) so a Will save will be needed. It doesn't have to be an easy save though. How about a -1 penalty on the save for each different type of feature added during the transformation (no additional penalty for augmentations or extras of the same feature)? The mind is easier to break if it can no longer even recognize the flesh housing it. This also effectively raises the bar for effective servant making. Not only do you need to inflict enough damage to afford the 40 Graft point cost of Mental-Lords’ Unity but also additional features to make it more likely. Another side benefit is that optimizing the save will probably make the the victim look like a cross between an Otyugh and a Gibbering Mouther. Rather appropriate for something made in a single round don't you think?

A creature that fails the save and is then kept can still suffer the Int drain (as every day they are around of the cause of their suffering they lose a little more of what they used to be...) to eventually become mindless, governed only by the instints that you have implanted via Mental-Lords’ Unity. As for a released creature gaining Kreikiri levels, you already have that covered in the release of creatures. No need to repeat yourself or create different rules now. See the previous post for my comments on that mechanic.

As an afterthought, how about including an option to halt the Int drain on a minion at the cost of mythos points (say somewhere between 100-1,000 depending on how common an option you want this to be)? Could be useful to stop a favoured minion from falling into the mental abyss. What are your thoughts?

Lastly...


You do not gain mythos points for abandoning a creature crated by this mythos unless you have kept them for a month.

Get rid of this. I understand the concern (quick and easy mythos points becoming a fountain of imbalance) but I don't think such concern is necessary. The mythos gained by this ability is strictly controlled by the DM due to it being an attack. What I mean is that this is only successful if the creature survives, and the creature only survives if it takes no more that double its max. Hp in damage (less if it's already damaged). Have a player who busts out a TO build that does 10,000 damage on a full attack? Irrelevant. Even a Red Dragon Wyrm only has an average of 391 Hp. If a Kreikiri could drop it to only a couple of Hp without going over, and used all of those Graft points (@780) and then released it, that would only be 78 Mythos points. Considering the effort (and the fact that the game would have jumped the shark if Red Wyrms are being dropped on a full attack) this is nothing. Going to try this with a bag of rats? They will die before you get a single point. Go up to cows? You can get a few points each until you have anihilated the herd. Not a problem. No more that a Teramach raiding villiages for everything not nailed down then spending his days a week later smashing cutlery and cookware. Are they geting a bennefit? Yup. Is it a big enough bennefit to be a problem? Nope. At least the Kreikiri is filling the world with cool stuff to kill later.



[size=+2]Mental-lords’ unity {Splintered}


Another very cool ability that needs clarification of terms. First, you need to define the cost to be a magic item cost and not a feature cost for the purposes of graft implantation (like under special ability harvesting in Stable Implement of Empowerment). I don't think that a +50 to the DC is what was intended. Or was it? This is an interesting balance question. Do you want the Kreikiri to make mind slaves with relative ease (as with normal graft implantation) or do you want to make it a more involved process that would need Conversion Chambers (since they can implant without a roll)? You have some options here. Either way, you'll need to spell it out. You need to be clear when it comes to mind-slave production.

You are using the word 'instinct' for two seperate things here (the name of the purchased ability and for the three components of that ability) and this is causing the chaos. How about calling the 50 Graft point feature an Urge Nexus (or some other name) and staying with Instincts for its 3 components.

Before saying what the difference is between using this with a graft vs. creature, explain fully what the instincts are and what they are capable of.



To determine an instinct you may initially choose up to three sentences that would form an order or suggestion of a course of action, each with a total of ten words available between them. Examples include ‘follow {name}’s orders’, ‘kill everything that you see’, or ‘guard here from intruders’. These sentences form your first three instincts.

See, this is confusing. "To determine an instinct you may initially choose up to three sentences.... These sentences form your first three instincts", equals instinct-ception. The first sentence also sounds like each instinct can be composed of up to 3 sentences (with a combined total of 10 words between them) collectively describing 'an order or suggestion of a course of action'. Not sure if this is what you mean or if you meant each of the 3 instincts is a single sentence of up to 10 words. Clarification is needed.

Since these are going to be relatively simple commands/instructions there should be a way for poor word choice to backfire somehow. How about any time any instincts directly conflict with each other (eg, when a creature with the instincts 'Kill anyone who enters the room' and 'Obey your master' is told by their master not to attack someone who enters the room) the creature is left in a state of non-magical Confusion (as per the spell, no save) until the conflict is removed. And the suppressed violence of the inflicted urge results in the creature pursuing the most violent of its conflicting instincts on a confusion result of 'Acts normally'.

This would add some interesting game possibilities as finding out all the instincts programed into an enemies' created shocktroops may prove key in taking down a vastly superior force. By engineering a situation where instincts are in conflict the PCs could sit back and watch an army tear itself appart. Of course, this can also be used against the PCs as well.

This would also be a great place to introduce psychosomatic effects and perceptual editing. Say that an instinct can be used to inflict a status effect (or remove one inflicted by this ability) when tied to a trigger (such as 'Upon hearing [abyssal word for toe fungus] you will be Blind for 5 minutes' or 'If you attack your creator you will be Nauseated'). The 10 word limit will prevent a lot of word-lawyer abuse and the presence of an effective off-switch for your creations could be incredibly useful (and used against you).

Perceptual editing could be used to edit cretain things out of a creatures senses. Things like 'You cannot sense anyone wearing the Baron's seal' for a guard beast who will kill all it sees, or 'You cannot find your way out of the Labyrinth' for your new Minotaur.

Actually, each of these could be advanced manifestations or something as well. Just some ideas.

A last thought on this, limit the stacking of this feature. Perhaps only one Urge Nexus (with 3 Instincts) can be placed into any graft. This will limit the direct control as well as limiting hassel at the gaming table. It also stops any programers in your gaming group from trying to overwhelm you with if/then statements. In this context adding, "up to a number of instincts equal to ¼ of your Kreikiri level", to created creatures seems like a well balanced addition. The line about loopholes is great.



You may ‘buy’ an additional instinct for 10 mythos points for every word it contains.

Just get rid of this. It doesn't really fit and allows exceeding the 10 word limit (which I think is a great balance mechanic).



Ever-shifting protean-mastery {Whole}


This works and the value is obvious. In fact, it's so useful/obvious that the idea of making this an Exceptional Mythos might have some merit. Being the only one able to hide grafts (even from the very begining of their career) might be a good way to demonstrate their mastery of grafts, while others are merely users of them. This isn't really a firm recomendation, just a thought.



Stitched nightmare

I like this mythos. It's good to have an ability that heralds the transition from mere mortal to something more. Some clarification needed though. When performing the procedure do you need to make the implant roll? I do not think so but spell it out. In fact, you might want to remove any reference to this being a graft at all. A graft is something that takes up a graft slot (It already costs a Fantastic Mythos, no need for the slot cost) and can be extracted and placed into someone else. I don't think that was the intent here. I know that you clarify that it is irremovable, unalterable, etc., but if the ability doesn't actually follow any of the rules for grafts, why even say that it is one. It is perfectly fine to say that prior knowledge of flesh manipulation (grafts) allows insight into a greater, one-time, transformation that transends his previous ability.

As written, the -10 disguise penalty seems to apply to a lot more than I think you intended. How about changing the example in that sentence, '(e.g a spell)', to '(e.g. any spell or effect that duplicates Disguise Self or similar negates the penalty for the duration of the spell or effect)'. This covers polymorph effects, Eberron Changelings, and the Structure Shifting Alterations excellency, to name but a few.



... contains any three mutations (as per an evolutionist but ignoring mutator level limitations)...

This is the big selling point of this feature. The ability to overcome level limitations on a few mutations. This would allow someone to take a mutation available once every 10 levels three times at 7th level. This opens up many interesting options. If this wasn't your original intention, I suggest that you go with it. It turns an unremovable low-to-mid level graft into something worthy of it's mythos tier. Actually, I think you should expand this a little and say that these mutations do not count towards the mutation limits of normal grafts [ie. a 7th level Kreikiri could gain the Powerful Form mutation three times with this ability, providing +6 to Str, without affecting his ability to have it up to two more times, for an additional +4 Str, on one or more grafts (two times because Powerful Form can be selected once per six levels, so twice at 7th level)].

As for the additional option, they are all good abilities but not the main attraction. Two things though. Does the flight speed require/grant wings or can it be wingless (this can be important in a lot of situations and should be stated)? Does the bonus feat need to meet requirements?



Glad to see that you have responded to the previous post and equally glad to see that my comments seem to be helpful. I'll comment on changes made after I PEACH the rest of the abilities. Which should be soon™.

ThreadNecro5
2015-02-24, 03:03 PM
Continuing with the PEACH, this time for the Fantastic Mythos. I thought it would have gone quicker/been shorter but I had to take a few days to mull over some of the mythos before I could gather my thoughts.

thank you for the continued PEACHing. taking a while is not a problem. iv finished adjusting the exceptional mythos apart from how I'm adding to 'Limb-shredding graft-taker' that on a failed heal check you may not attempt to attach that graft to any creature for 24 hours (a bit arbitrary, I know, but it seems fair to me). i'll be making adjustments to a few mythos after writing this and the rest I'll do in the following days.


This is a great feature. I like it a lot. Just need more clarity.

When making the companion does it have to be created as an Animal creature type? If not then it needs to be said. Do you need to drop Intelligence to animal levels? If not then say so. Since its HD automatically equal the class level just mention that the Advanced Form and Transient Skill augments are not available.

And, of course, if you agree with my suggestions for Monster-Making Beast-Lord then the Graft points available for creation will need to go up to levelx25+15 (with the +15 adjusted depending on whether you change the cost of a torso).

il fix this.

As for types of the animal companion, you choose the type but some types are getting a cost associated with them. im not entirely sure of the pricing to use so im pricing acording to rough benefit, with dragon being relatively cheeps, plant, elemental and ooze more expensive, and construct and undead significantly more expensive, with undead slightly more so, as undead increase their HP using their CHA modifier which is relatively simple to buff, while constructs need to increase their size which, while rather simple, has problems of its own that should make it cheaper than the undead type.


This is one of those abilities that looks a lot more useful than it really is. It only really comes into its own once you have all of the manefestations and even then it is of medium usefulness. And I am quite fine with that. Its good as is.

good, I have noticed an oversight in the wording of a manifestations that allowed Legend-burnout ash harvester to be used on non mythos-using creatures without Feast of mortal flesh, so I will fix that.


I have to admit, I don't really get the base ability. I mean, mechanically I understand what is happening. I just don't see why this is particularly useful. You have a fairly clunky way to squeeze in some extra attacks at significant penalty. Why not just add extra limbs and attack normally? Am I missing something?

I will make use of your revision of this mythos, the original effect was because of how you can apply more than one feature to a graft, but that I had in mind when writing this mythos was not how it actually worked is most cases, and so was far more a corner case situation than expected.


Also, how are you picturing this visually? Multiple claw hands on the same wrist? Claw hand on elbow?

visually this mythos is not not actually any physical change but rather an outright improvement in skill with natural attacks, the idea being they were moving significantly faster that before with the attacks (and thus able to do more of them), the Kyniteros as a creature that always made itself better in some shape or fashion, and so this mythos was breaking some limitations on natural attacks.


Change ododren ->Ozodrin. Might want to restrict it to non-epic prestige classes. Already stole a big prize from one. Best not to push ones luck.

probably a good idea, prevents the abuse of anything that may be written in the future as well.

this marks the end of the mythos I'll be fixing today, the rest will be done later.


Might want to fix the size formating on the title of this one. Great ability (good idea, I like what it initially does) but there are some odd consequences of how it's being done. Do you realize that this gives a 7th level character up to 20mins of effective Confusion/Dominate on anyone they can inflict a single point of damage on with no Spell Resistance check and no Save (the saves you have are just to determine how complete the control is, not to break it). Let that sink in for a moment. I don't think that was exactly what you were going for here (or maybe it was, I'm not sure).

yeah a save is a good idea.


Also, the nature of the initial ability makes the vast majority of the (somewhat clunky and unintuitive) rules for control a moot point. There is a very good chance that the victim of this mythos will be unconscious for at least an hour, if not already dead. Remember, any nonlethal damage over a characters max. Hp becomes lethal. Even mild optimization (not hard for someone who can add additional natural attacks willy-nilly and probably has a hefty Wis bonus) will result in the ability to absolutely shred mooks. In the event that you cannot drop someone (the dice gods frowned upon you, you be a wuss, or you took on the BBEG) be more reasonable about the outcome. Something like Will save vs non-magical Confusion with a duration of 5-Wis bonus rounds (min. of 1 round). During this time the Kreikiri who transformed them (and no-one else) can use the Handle Animal skill (to "Handle" them to perform a task if you share a language, and to “Push” them if you do not) as if they were an animal (as per the skill). The effects of Confusion are suspended while performing such a task.

I will use this idea, will also add the limitation that the target may not take lethal damage from this mythos.


You already have a minion mind-control mythos. Let it be used. Granted, the control can't be automatic (actual created creatures are born with the instincts, these are inflicted) so a Will save will be needed. It doesn't have to be an easy save though. How about a -1 penalty on the save for each different type of feature added during the transformation (no additional penalty for augmentations or extras of the same feature)? The mind is easier to break if it can no longer even recognize the flesh housing it. This also effectively raises the bar for effective servant making. Not only do you need to inflict enough damage to afford the 40 Graft point cost of Mental-Lords’ Unity but also additional features to make it more likely. Another side benefit is that optimizing the save will probably make the the victim look like a cross between an Otyugh and a Gibbering Mouther. Rather appropriate for something made in a single round don't you think?

A creature that fails the save and is then kept can still suffer the Int drain (as every day they are around of the cause of their suffering they lose a little more of what they used to be...) to eventually become mindless, governed only by the instints that you have implanted via Mental-Lords’ Unity. As for a released creature gaining Kreikiri levels, you already have that covered in the release of creatures. No need to repeat yourself or create different rules now. See the previous post for my comments on that mechanic.

As an afterthought, how about including an option to halt the Int drain on a minion at the cost of mythos points (say somewhere between 100-1,000 depending on how common an option you want this to be)? Could be useful to stop a favoured minion from falling into the mental abyss. What are your thoughts?

now this idea I like, will be working it in. as for the stopping the intelligence drain idea, i'm thinking that when the creatures intelligence stops decreasing it becomes unerringly loyal to you, your keeping of it distorting its mind until it sees you as its master and what you did to it as a blessing or improvement.


Lastly...

Get rid of this. I understand the concern (quick and easy mythos points becoming a fountain of imbalance) but I don't think such concern is necessary. The mythos gained by this ability is strictly controlled by the DM due to it being an attack. What I mean is that this is only successful if the creature survives, and the creature only survives if it takes no more that double its max. Hp in damage (less if it's already damaged). Have a player who busts out a TO build that does 10,000 damage on a full attack? Irrelevant. Even a Red Dragon Wyrm only has an average of 391 Hp. If a Kreikiri could drop it to only a couple of Hp without going over, and used all of those Graft points (@780) and then released it, that would only be 78 Mythos points. Considering the effort (and the fact that the game would have jumped the shark if Red Wyrms are being dropped on a full attack) this is nothing. Going to try this with a bag of rats? They will die before you get a single point. Go up to cows? You can get a few points each until you have anihilated the herd. Not a problem. No more that a Teramach raiding villiages for everything not nailed down then spending his days a week later smashing cutlery and cookware. Are they geting a bennefit? Yup. Is it a big enough bennefit to be a problem? Nope. At least the Kreikiri is filling the world with cool stuff to kill later.

you make a convincing argument here, will be done.

this marks the end of the fist part of the reply, the rest will be done when iv finished the alterations above.

ThreadNecro5
2015-02-27, 07:27 PM
now for the second half of the reply, I have already made the changes to the mythos at the time of writing so im stating my changes.


Another very cool ability that needs clarification of terms. First, you need to define the cost to be a magic item cost and not a feature cost for the purposes of graft implantation (like under special ability harvesting in Stable Implement of Empowerment). I don't think that a +50 to the DC is what was intended. Or was it? This is an interesting balance question. Do you want the Kreikiri to make mind slaves with relative ease (as with normal graft implantation) or do you want to make it a more involved process that would need Conversion Chambers (since they can implant without a roll)? You have some options here. Either way, you'll need to spell it out. You need to be clear when it comes to mind-slave production.

You are using the word 'instinct' for two seperate things here (the name of the purchased ability and for the three components of that ability) and this is causing the chaos. How about calling the 50 Graft point feature an Urge Nexus (or some other name) and staying with Instincts for its 3 components.

Before saying what the difference is between using this with a graft vs. creature, explain fully what the instincts are and what they are capable of.

with this iv clarified and otherwise reordered this mythos to make it make a lot more scene. also added your other suggestions

this mythos will take a bit before I update it as i'm still working on the manifestation ideas.


I like this mythos. It's good to have an ability that heralds the transition from mere mortal to something more. Some clarification needed though. When performing the procedure do you need to make the implant roll? I do not think so but spell it out. In fact, you might want to remove any reference to this being a graft at all. A graft is something that takes up a graft slot (It already costs a Fantastic Mythos, no need for the slot cost) and can be extracted and placed into someone else. I don't think that was the intent here. I know that you clarify that it is irremovable, unalterable, etc., but if the ability doesn't actually follow any of the rules for grafts, why even say that it is one. It is perfectly fine to say that prior knowledge of flesh manipulation (grafts) allows insight into a greater, one-time, transformation that transends his previous ability.

As written, the -10 disguise penalty seems to apply to a lot more than I think you intended. How about changing the example in that sentence, '(e.g a spell)', to '(e.g. any spell or effect that duplicates Disguise Self or similar negates the penalty for the duration of the spell or effect)'. This covers polymorph effects, Eberron Changelings, and the Structure Shifting Alterations excellency, to name but a few.

I've sorted out the wording and added your suggestions, slightly altered the wording of the bit regarding the disguise check penalty as your wording sounded a but odd to me, I knew what you mean however (I think) so iv just tweaked word choice into what makes sense to me.


This is the big selling point of this feature. The ability to overcome level limitations on a few mutations. This would allow someone to take a mutation available once every 10 levels three times at 7th level. This opens up many interesting options. If this wasn't your original intention, I suggest that you go with it. It turns an unremovable low-to-mid level graft into something worthy of it's mythos tier. Actually, I think you should expand this a little and say that these mutations do not count towards the mutation limits of normal grafts [ie. a 7th level Kreikiri could gain the Powerful Form mutation three times with this ability, providing +6 to Str, without affecting his ability to have it up to two more times, for an additional +4 Str, on one or more grafts (two times because Powerful Form can be selected once per six levels, so twice at 7th level)].

As for the additional option, they are all good abilities but not the main attraction. Two things though. Does the flight speed require/grant wings or can it be wingless (this can be important in a lot of situations and should be stated)? Does the bonus feat need to meet requirements?

that was what I intended, also added your small expansion to it and clarified that you chose any physical alterations that take place (so thinks like how you fly and such).

edit: that is me done with the fantastic mythos, please give an opinion on the manifestations for Mental-lords’ unity if you have the time, as I'm sure they can be streamlined, but i'm not sure how.

Quarian Rex
2015-03-10, 10:36 AM
Taking a slight break from PEACHing the rest of the abilities (mainly since the Legendary and Exalted abilities can be so far-reaching and involved I keep thinking of new implications and so revising my opinions) I'll comment on some of your responses/changes made. Probably for the best since those changes are still (relatively) fresh and such.




CLASS SKILLS

I see that you added Diplomacy. Good call. An argument could be made for its exclusion but in the end the Kyniteros is about trying to bring itself together so having the ability to do this on a social level makes sense.


many of the other mythos classes lack the Profession skill, I always thought the whole 'town doctor' angle could be covered by the heal skill. as for disguise i'm not to sure, mundane disguises doesn't seem that related to the narrative of the Kyniteros, but I can wait for a second opinion or mull the die over.

I recommended the Disguise skill because it's essentially Craft (Fleshsculpting) when used with Structure shifting alterations. While the the Craft skill sounds better (Flesh is the medium of my art! Muwahahaha!), it is the Disguise skill that covers the mechanical effects of cosmetically altering someones appearance (something that most Kreikiri will probably be doing a lot of). As for mundane disguises, don't think of it as an infiltration skill (the Bard pretending to be a courtier or somesuch), think of it as a necessary survival skill. From a very early level this character will be making themselves, and others, appear to be quite monstrous. If they don't want to be chased out of town and burned at the stake then precautions will need to be taken. How to lash down those tentacles so that when cloaked you still present a human silhouette? Disguise skill. How to wear that veil/scarf so it doesn't look like you have a dragon muzzle? Disguise skill. Considering the physical changes that come with the grafts this skill might be required for basic human interaction. Just think about it is all I ask.

As for the Profession skill, remember, it's a catch-all skill for things that might not fit elsewhere, not just a pitifully small source of income. Profession (General) is usefull if you breed an army, and should that army conquer you may need to make rolls for Profession (Flesh Emperor). And if this class doesn't get Profession (Flesh Emperor) as a class skill who should? Who, I ask you? WHO?!? I'm joking. I'm half joking. I'm not joking at all. When eventually a roll for Flesh Emperor is made it cannot be lacking a class bonus. What are we, peasants?

Seriously though, these are two normally underused skills that have great utility with this class specifically. To not include them would be a bleeding shame.



Proficiencies

Even upon further reflection I still think that adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice is a good idea. Don't forget about these. If you have other thoughts on it I'd like to hear.



Meat shearing butchers scalpel



I'm not quite following what you mean int he first paragraph about upgrading being cheaper at lower levels

When enchanting magic weapons each '+' (whether enhancement bonus or special ability) on the weapon is more expensive than the one before. A +1 weapon is 2,000 gp, a +2 is 8,000 gp (the second '+' cost 6,000 gp), a +3 is 18,000 (the third '+' cost 10,000 gp), etc. The effect here is that over the life of the class you will provide six free '+'s. The cost of adding more will depend on when they are added. If the character adds another +4 to the weapon (so that 18th level it will be a +10 weapon) before he gets to 3rd level (before it has it's first +1) it will cost him 32,000 mythos points (gp). If he waits till 18th level (when the weapon is already +6) it will cost 128,000 mythos points (200,000 gp for a +10 weapon minus 72,000 gp for the free +6). That was why I said that it should be limited to enchantments with a flat cost.



as for the secondary attacks they were to be treated as all seconder natural attacks are. most things iv seen that offer two natural attacks are like this while a single attack is primary.

The thing here is that when given the choice between a single and multiple attacks, the single attack is usually given a bigger damage die and specified to have x1.5 Str to damage, while the multiple attacks have the advantage of, well, multiple attacks. In all cases both options are considered to be primary attacks (ie. do not suffer -5 on attack rolls). I cannot think of a single feat/power/racial ability/spell/etc. that gives you a pair of claws but makes them secondary attacks. The only time I can think of seeing a single (primary)/dual (secondary) setup like you describe is on a 3.5 bear, and even this is an anomally. Usually the claws are primary and bite is secondary (see tigers, Trolls, etc.).

Either way, the point here was that you introduced a new ruleset for natural attacks in this mythos that goes against everything else in the class. Every other natural attack provided by the class (through grafts) adds them through Ozodrin features, and all natural attacks made through Ozodrin features are considered to be primary (ie. no -5 attack penalty and no x1/2 Str bonus on damage). Actually, I think that this is the only place in the entire class that specifies an attack as being secondary.

I understand that you want to skew the cost/benefit ratio to not make multiple natural attacks be the obvious choice but I think that this is the wrong way to do it. You are allowing a signature weapon to become a signature natural attack(s). A signature ability should never be considered secondary. And how do these additional attacks interact with the limit on number of natural attacks in Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker? This is unspecified and another point of balance that needs to be considered.

I think the problem here isn't with the base ability (adding creepy magical surgical tool power to a natural weapon) but with you trying to reinvent the wheel and balance yet another natural atack power. You already have a source of natural attacks (grafts, the heart of the class) that is already quite well balanced (features from Ozodrin limited in number by Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker). Have this mythos be about empowering what is already there, not about adding more of the same, especially when Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker does it far better.

Also, the wording should be cleaned up a bit. You want to make it sound like the single attack option is getting a bonus, not like the multiple attacks are getting penalized. You could go with something like...

"at the cost of an equivalent +1 of enchantment bonus you may apply the effects of this mythos (including the increase in damage die and bonus to Heal checks) to any two existing natural attacks. If applied to a single natural attack the damage increases as if gaining a size level (this is cumulative with the previous damage die increase) and Str bonus on damage becomes x1.5. These bonuses apply only to the affected natural attacks and not to similar attacks or features."

This does what you want it to do without the headache of trying to balance the inclusion of even more attacks on a class that can already be choked on them.

Think about adding an additional advanced manifestation that would allow the Kreikiri to add this mythos bonus to any weapon he is proficient with. It would add a good counterpoint to Hunter’s claw and allow people to do things like sprout serrations on the string of a shortbow to saw through a limb, or have the end of a mancatcher hold someones head still while the haft digs into the torso and works it like a chest-spreader. This would also provide an option for those who want to have a relatively unchanged Kreikiri (mad scientist type of thing) while being surrounded by freaks.

I have now spent way to much time on a relatively minor ability, but as-is it just sticks out and seems... jumbled maybe. Out of place. It just needs to be better integrated into the systems of this class instead of seeming like it was copied out of some other class that you never quite finished. Moving on.




True Surgeon’s Skill

Was good before, still is. Adding limb reattachment to Flesh reknitting mastery is niche but useful. Nice.


I'm adding to 'Limb-shredding graft-taker' that on a failed heal check you may not attempt to attach that graft to any creature for 24 hours (a bit arbitrary, I know, but it seems fair to me).

This is actually really good. This provides functionally unlimited out of combat healing that can still hit a snag and so requires back-up plans. Double nice.




Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker

Very happy to see the clarification on vivisection but I question this...


... and makes them unsuitable for all future harvesting...

Creatures that can recover from the most grievous of wounds, going so far as to grow back limbs (and sometimes even heads), should be able to replenish the bits of muscle, ligament, and viscera that was removed from them. Tie this to the ability drain. A creature cannot be harvested for graft points again till the Con Drain has been healed. Because it is Drain it cannot be healed naturally (so normals cannot be re-harvested) but regenerating trolls or those affected by powerful magic (ie. Restoration) are valid targets once again.

I'm aware that you are concerned about this becoming a fountain of free Graft points but don't. The rate of Drain healing for regenerating creatures (1 point/week) is low enough that a troll harvest can only happen once every 1d6 weeks. That is a long time for the DM to screw with the players troll farm operation. Other options are either expensive (Restoration costs 100gp a cast, using that money to buy cattle would probably get a better gp/Graft point ratio) or high enough level to not be a real concern (Regenerate is a 7th ot 9th level spell after all, and you need to specify that this spell can heal all of the Con Drain from graft harvesting since healing ability drain is beyond the normal scope of the spell).

Perhaps if the wording were something like...

"Vivisecting a creature (and leaving it alive at the end) causes it to be considered one size category smaller for the amount of Graft points received. The surviving creature takes d6 constitution drain and is left alive at zero HP. The constitution drain may be cured normally or with a Regenerate spell or similar effects (Regenerate heals all constitution drain from this ability but has no effect on any other form of ability drain), and creatures with regeneration heal from the drain at one point/week. Surviving a vivisection in this way makes a creature unsuitable for future harvesting until their constitution drain has been healed completely."

That clears things up a bit. What do you think?



You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or to a maximum uses per day equal to X, where X is cost of magic items divided by the desired maximum uses per day.

Just change this to, "You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or use other such modifiers as per magic item creation in the DMG with DM permission", or something like that. The charges per day thing needs the full formula to make actual sense and doesn't add anything to the sentence. You now have a concrete example and a reference to further options. No need for more. Also note that if a graft duplicates a magic item that would normally need a UMD check to activate the check is comnsidered to be automatically successful. Unless you want a roll. Either way, spell it out.



To create a graft that grants a 20ft swim speed...

Minor correction, each Fin feature provides 10ft swim speed, so the graft should give 40ft swim speed.



Any creature may be given no more natural attacks from grafts than 2+ ¼ of the HD of the Kreikiri Appling the graft, increasing to ¾ their HD at level 15 and the limit being removed at level 20.

This is important enough that you should remove it from this paragraph and leave it seperate. Each time I look for it I keep skipping past it due to placement. I like how you did the limit, with a big jump at 15th and then letting them go nuts at 20th (level 20 is crazytown anyway). I think the rate needs some tweaking though. Going from 1/4 to 3/4 is... awkward. What about 2+ 1/3 levels goint to 2+ 2/3 levels at 15th. Gives a slight boost to the early levels, easier math, less ponderous progression, and, most importantly, gives an even number of attacks at 12th (last change before the big boost at 15).



A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be resurrected and may not be recovered if the body is destroyed, e.g. a disintegrate spell was used.

Just specify what happens to grafts on a Raised/Resurrected character. Dose each graft have a 50% chance of being destroyed (since he died) or is the return to life strong enough magic to restore the grafts as well? How about Raising has a 50% chance of restoring destroyed grafts, Resurrection restores automatically, and Regeneration can restore any grafts lost to death if used within 24hrs of returning to life? Something like that? Let me know what you think.

I would also suggest that you add a caveat under graft creation saying that a graft can be broken down into its component graft points with a minutes work or something like that. Over the life of the character he will be upgrading a lot of grafts. This will reward them for using grafts early and often, instead of saving up for just the right one.

One last thing...


Have the base ability able to harvest from all the "normal" stuff, including corporeal undead (flesh is flesh, right?) but exclude Constructs, Plants, and Elementals (and maybe Outsiders too? I don't know, I'm on the fence about that one). Add a basic manifestation to be able to harvest them (call it Reap the Neverborn perhaps?).

I mentioned this in my first post. Reconsider it. Not only does it provide a nice progression but it also helps DMs choke down the homebrew. This way, if a DM balks at the thought of you harvesting the 'organs' of a sentient bonfire he can delay or ban a single manifestation instead of the base mythos of the class. Doesn't really change the capabilities of the class, just provides some flexibility and lets it have a better chance of being allowed at the gaming table.



Stable implement of empowerment

This right here...


By spending four (+2 per time this manifestation is applied to a graft, so 4,6,8,10,12,ect.) points you may form...

... is still ambiguous. Is the cost cumulative or not? The way it is worded it is not clear. Do three mutations added to the same graft cost 8 Graft points (4+2+2) of 18 (4+6+8)? This needs to be spelled out. For the record, I think it should be the more expensive option.

I mentioned in my first post that I think you should add something like this...


"For the purpose of placing mutations in grafts the graft maker is considered to have a mutator level equal to his Kreikiri level. The mutations granted by this ability use the Kreikiri’s mutator level to determine the limit for how many times they can be taken, but use the target's hit dice as his mutator level to determine the power of the mutations. These limitations are applied to the host of the grafts so any mutations in excess of the normal limit (having multiple identical grafts with the same mutations applied to the same creature) simply go dormant, though other aspects of the graft will remain active as normal."

... and it is still desperately needed. While adding Ozodrin features and augments without regard for level limitations was a good call (I always found that staggering out the features and such of the Ozodrin just for the sake of progression was the main weakness of the class. It takes too long to be able to change into something interesting), doing the same with mutations raises some massive balance problems. I don't think unrestricted access was your intention, but this point needs to be spelled out. The bolded part is a new bit that I think should be added to cover the nature of grafts.



An exception to the mutations that may be taken is the spell-like abilities and psi-like abilities mutations. Instead these mutations grant a single spell or psi (as appropriate) like ability useable once a day with a graft point cost of 2 per level of the spell but only adds an amount equal to the level of the spell/power to the implantation DC, instead of its normal value.

For the love of the baby Jebus H. Cristos, please no. This is a gamebreaker right here and throws balance right out the window. These mutations only work with the Evolutionist because once chosen they are more or less static (can only be changed on level-up). Having them as an option on grafts (even with the minor nerfing you have done here) makes the Kreikiri the premier spellcaster in the game. They have grater spell access than Wizards (no need for a spellbook, automatic access to Psionic Powers, and then eventually they can select from Cleric, Druid, Artificer, etc lists once the other mutation lists open up). They can create grafts for new spells in minutes and implant in only an hour (or a single full atack if using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry). Most damning of all, this can be done cheaply.

This class already has access to a wealth of powers and special abilities through normal grafts and now mutations. They even have access to spell-likes and such if they can find a creature to harvest them from, but at least that is under the control of the DM (what monsters you can find) and even then you have to pry those abilities from their steaming corpse. If they really need access to a specific spell then it can already be done through the much more expensive (and therefore much more balanced) existing mechanic of incorporating magic items.

Allowing the use of the Spell-like/Psi-like mutations in grafts does not add any new capabilities to the class whatsoever. It just removes all barriers to use and so shatters the (damn fine) existing balance of the class. Let spellcasters do the spellcasting. Please, please reconsider.



Skill-of-the-flesh



The creature does not need to meet the perquisites of the feat.

Perhaps change this to, "The creature does not need to meet perquisites of the feat other than feat prerequisites.". Skipping to the end of a feat chain to cherry-pick the best one, or worse yet grabbing a feat that builds on mechanics of a pre-req that the character does not have, fills me with dread. This is a minor inconvenience for the grafter but prevents things from becoming a train-wreck later on.




Monster-Making Beast-Lord

The changes you made have really cleaned things up. There are still a couple of points of wording and such but good.



... or the creature may instead be immortal for +5 points...

Perhaps 'unaging' would be better than immortal, no questions of whether the creature can actually be killed or not. Also, +5 points? In reality this is more of a flavour thing (most campaigns would not go on long enough for it to make a difference), but do you want it to be that cheap? Just wondering.



... you spend your graft points to produce any number of grafts... grafts created at this time cease to be considered grafts in any way...

Seriously, just remove reference to the added features being grafts. It just muddies things. Saying something like...

"During creation you may spend Graft points to add capabilities (and limbs, sensory organs, etc.) to a creature just as you would to a graft and these become natural parts of the creatures’ anatomy, making up the basic appearance and form of the creature, as well as that of any offspring it may produce. The graft point cost for any features and augmentations contained within the creature is increased by five times its base cost, and magic items have their base cost tripled (for a net cost of x5 for features and augmentations, and x3 for magic items). The creature counts as a single graft for the purposes of stacking features and such."

This way the language clarifies that any upgrade to your grafting abilities (can add mutations, etc.) apply to creatures, and also that the creature is considered to be a single graft for feature stacking purposes. Previously you could add Skill-of-the-flesh once each to however many grafts to get around the stacking penalty. Wording like this negates that kind of shenanigans.



Enhanced Potential

You might want to specify that the cost becomes cumulative when applied again to the same ability. Want general improvements and to fill any weaknesses? No problem. Want to add +30 to Str? That should be expensive.



Advanced form

The cost example just needs to be corrected to a base cost of 25. Currently still using 5.



Hidden Power

Just replace 'graft' with 'feature' and you'll be fine.



Cascade of Life

I still think that double cost would be better, but this is something that will need some playtesting, so I'll defer to your judgement. I think that in an earlier version of this you had it that immortal creatures could not breed. I think you should bring that back. It's a small thing but saying something like, "A creature that is created as unaging is not eligibe to receive Cascade of Life.", could prevent a Malthusian catastrophe and provide a sharp line between an eternal servitor and a new addition to the circle of life. You also have enough options in this class to provide extended lifespans to crestures that it should not be a problem if you want to reward the best breeders with more life.



Man-is-monster restoration

Holy crapsnacks, what a turnaround! This is good. This is interesting. The chance to lose limbs, racial abilities (but not ability modifiers, size, etc.), and even subtype so that they can come back (mechanicaly) not quite human is very good. It combines to make a perfect homage to the Frankenstien thing you seem to be going for. Even the ability loss (with a chance of no loss) is now within reason (and potential recuperation).

The only real comments I have are that you just need to say how long the Heal check takes and remove the reference to grafts as I suggested above. In fact, just make this an additional option when harvesting Graft points. Say that the harvesting always counts as a vivisection (reduces graft points even on an already dead creature) that can retain the creatures mind on a Heal check of etc., etc.

Also, this is a manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord, let it use those rules (remove reference to grafts as I mentioned above), it's more consistent. As for cost, just make it all half the cost of a normal creature. You are still, essentially, adding new racial features so it shouldn't be as cheap as a graft, but not as costly as making a creature whole-cloth.

Lastly, do you need to make the creation check as with a created creature? It isn't specified. Considering the time, costs, potential drawbacks, and initial harvesting check, I would say let it succeed automatically. Thoughts?




Beastmaster's Coiled Lash



Beast Mastering Hand

See my first post for comments. They still stand, especially for the activation time. How do you see this ability being used at the game table, and on what targets? Right now it just seems like it would break down in actual play.




Anatomy-twisting bestial-genesis

You have done some interesting work on this one but it does bring up some more questions both about what you have said and what you have not said. The main thing I have to ask is, what do you see this ability as being? Is it a boosted animal companion with some extra options? Is it a general companion/bodyguard/henchman replacement? Is it the chance to make a single creature with the class' signature ability that you don't have to worry about turning on you/DM dickery? Right now you seem to be sitting on the fence about what this can do and I think that the ability is suffering for it. You say that it is created like a creature (good) but then limit the types of creature it can be (no Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Outsider, or Vermin, despite vermin being used in a later example). You allow selecting different creature types then say that the creature type has no effect on most of its characteristics (HD size, BAB, skills, saves, etc.). This seems... like a mistake.

If you are going to be straddling the line between Animal Companions and Henchmen (which, for the record, I think is a pretty brilliant idea) then you need to sharply define where it crosses from being one to being the other. That and bring it more in line with the rules for each.

Start with changing the base HD to Kreikiri levels -2 (as with henchmen) instead of equal to your level. This way it starts slightly worse than the equivalent animal companion (so not completely overshadowing another PCs class ability) but is infinitely more versatile. The HD catch up with Animal Companions at 11th and wind up being higher by 15th. This provides a nice pregression, not destroying the competition when you first get it bit staying relevent at higher levels. Say that HD size, BAB, saves, skill points, feats, and normal attribute increases (once every 4 HD) progress as per normal for their HD and creature type (adjusting alternate creature type costs to compensate) but that they gain Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Dex Bonus, Bonus Tricks (if of animal intelligence), and Special abilities as per the Animal Companion class ability of a Druid of the Kreikiri's level. Say that the companions Intelligence must be lowered to animal levels (1 or 2) using Decreased Potential (granting extra points as usual), is automatically considered to be unaging and so cannot select Cascade of Life (no breeding for you!).

As an option (or even as an advanced manifestation), the Kreikiri could grant the Companion sapience. For the cost of 100 Graft points (maybe more, maybe less?) the Intelligence limit may be removed. Should this option be chosen the Kreikiri may convert one HD into a class level of chouce at the cost of 25 Graft points. This option may me chosen multiple times with the cost doubling for each additional HD converted (25 for the first, 50 for the second, 100 for the third, 200 fourth, etc). Any requirements for these class levels (in the case of PRC's and such) must be met by the creature before they can be selected. The costs for these two options (sapience and HD conversion) must be paid from the Kreikiri's Graft point reserve, not with the points provided by this mythos, representing the additional effort required to uplift his fleshy experiment.

This covers everything that you seem to be trying to do, initially working within the limits of a creepy Animal Companion and then providing the (costly) option to exceed those limits. An interesting side effect is that due to the mounting cost of converting HD to class levels this also acts as a reasonable limit on the capabilities of the characters henchman (some DMs don't like the idea of a player essentially having two full PCs).

You might want to add a limitation that once this Mythos is taken any existing Animal Companion, Familiar, Mount, or Henchman (from the Leadership feat or similar abilities, but not hirelings, loyal creatures, etc.) immediately leaves the character. Not allowing the stacking of uber-loyal minions is probably a good idea.

The creature type costs might need some treaking. Things like Animal and Humanoid should be listed as a 0 cost, Monstrous Humanoid and Magical Beast (both having full BAB, better HD, 2 good saves, Darkvision, etc.) should be 50, Dragons and Outsiders maybe 100. Balancing the costs of the others will need some thought. This also brings me to...


... as undead increase their HP using their CHA modifier which is relatively simple to buff...

This is a Pathfinder thing, not 3.5. Granted, I actually prefer Pathfinder (quite a bit) but the capabilities of the base creature types can be suprisingly different. While Undead have a host of immunities they also lose all bonus Hp (in 3.5), have the worst BAB, poor saves, and can be Turned/Destroyed by Clerics. Similar story with constructs. And both get a little screwed for additional grafts (no +Con bonus). In short, I think the costs need heavy retooling. Ask yourself how many levels of customization are these creature traits worth? Currently, a 7th level Kreikiri who takes this as a mythos and wants an undead minion (character concept, backstory, creepy fetish, whatever) would have 5 points to spend on senses and maybe a limb (nope, a limb would be too expensive) after he pays for a torso. That doesn't seem right.

Another thought, you might want to include a seperate value (with an '*' or something and a note) for Pathfinder. While 3.5 to 3.P is usually a pretty straightforward conversion these costs may need some tweaking. I'll have to give this some more thought before I can provide any really constructive criticism on creature type costs.



Continued experimentation

The benefits of this seem somewhat bland. What if the graft capability of the Companion was standard +1 (a little under the Kreikiri himself) but this provided an extra 2+1/4 level grafts? Same resulting total but this is a little more attractive and not an automatic skip in favour of Re-genesis gambit.

Also, were these always Basic manifestations? They are both significant enough upgrades that are not intrinsic to the base ability that I think you should make them Advanced manifestations. Just seems a better fit.




Organ-tearing freakish-overlord



Lord of warped flesh



Change ododren ->Ozodrin. Might want to restrict it to non-epic prestige classes. Already stole a big prize from one. Best not to push ones luck.

Looks like this got overlooked.




Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry



... always dealing nonleathal damage, up to a maximum amount of such damage equal to their maximum HP (and thus sufficient to leave them unconscious).

This is a good limiter on the graft power that can be added and is easy math, so quick to resolve at the table. Nice.


Additionally at his time you may consider them a creature you made for the purposes of applying instincts from the ‘Mental-lords’ unity’ mythos,,,

This part needs to go. Creatures created with Mental-lords’ unity do not get saves. Adding Mental-lords’ unity as a graft does allow saves. Do not confuse the two. The wording here is pointless and then immediately contradicts itself. Besides, with the great changes you've made to Man-is-monster restoration you now have an option to make an existing creature/character into a created creature with all the changes that entails. This is the quick and dirty option.


... the target must pass a will save or be subject to an effect identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you may add or subtract a number of rounds duration up to your wisdom modifier...

This is odd. In my previous recomendation I meant that the duration should be modified by the victims Wis modifier. That way the max-Wis Cleric will be able to come to terms with his new predicament relatively quickly but the low-Wis Renfield type will be gibbering like a madman for extra time.

You might want to change it to something like...

"... identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you subtract a number of rounds duration up to the victims wisdom modifier (note that a negative wisdom modifier will result in a longer duration), and you may use the handle animal skill..."

Unless you're going for something else. Thoughts?



Once the creatures intelligence becomes zero it is replaced with ‘-‘and the mindless special quality, but retaining any bonus feats and skill bonuses the creature has, including those from grafts.

I get that you want mindless minions to retain something of what they were but this is worded oddly. As is, it sounds like they lose their level feats but retain bonus feats (like from being a fighter) and retain all of their skill ranks. This seems off and problematic. A mindless creature should not retain all of its previous sage-like knowledge, and as for feats, what if it loses a prereq? How about changing it to something like...

"Once the creatures intelligence becomes zero it is replaced with ‘-‘ and the mindless special quality, but retaining any feats it has, and skill ranks are modified as if the creature had an Intelligence of 1."

This way there are no feat paradoxes and a mindless Rogue can still be useful in a couple of ways thanks to muscle memory. Thoughts?



You may allow a creature to be left with an intelligence score by paying mythos points equal to 150 per point of intelligence you desire a creature to have (up to their starting level), for example 150 for an intelligence of 1, or 1500 for an intelligence of 10, etc.

This is good. A scaling cost based on how much you want to preserve is so nice.



Once the creature stops taking intelligence drain it is treated as a creature you created for being release for mythos points...

Interesting little perk. I quite like it.



... and it becomes zealously loyal to you, and its entire personality warps to consider what you did to it an improvement.

This I see as problematic. With this line you can walk into a villiage, give everyone in town a 'makeover', and then leave them in gibbering chaos. Since you're not around they stop taking Int drain (indeed, they never even start) and when you swing back in a week ot a month you have an entire villiage full of minions. This just doesn't work, and actually goes against the spirit of the class since at 7th level you can now have perfect mind-control over your minions.

This line also steps all over the toes of Mental-lords’ unity. You have a good balance of having to carefully choose limited wording for limited instincts, leaving open all kinds of opportunities for roleplaying, creative interpretation, and shenanigans. That's even part of the basic balance of the class. You can make cool minions but it is really hard to make them into perfect mind-slaves. That one line throws all that right out the window. Please reconsider.




Mental-lords’ unity

Dropping it down so that each purchase of this feature provides only a single instinct seems like a good call. It forces the player to prioritize instructions and/or get creative with them.



Grafts: you may add a single instinct to a graft, the instinct effects the creature the graft is implanted into. The target is entitled to a will save to resist the instinct on the grafts initial implantation, with a +5 bonus if the instinct would force them to do something significantly against their nature, for example if forced to assist follow a cause they do not believe in. the creature must retake the save should the graft be removed and re-implanted. Each identical instinct the creature possesses (i.e. from implanting additional grafts with the same instinct) increases the DC of the save by +2.

Boosting the DC for multiple implants of the same instinct? Great idea. The wording of the rest? We need to talk. You should probably treat this as a long-term Charm/Dominate hybrid. You want the control from a graft to be shakey but not all-or-nothing so having them make a save on implantation doesn't really work. The +5 bonus to save is a little nuts (you may have pulled this from the Charm Person spell, but that is only there if you're trying to convince someone that you're their friend after you've stabbed them). And you haven't clearly defined the effects of a successful save. Is the instinct now useless? Do they only have a temporary reprieve?

How about no initial save. They had to be rendered helpless for at least an hour to have the instinct graft implanted so lets just let it take effect. The saves should be against individual triggerings of the instinct, not to permanently nullify the entire graft feature. Mindless and animal level intelligence creatures will follow the instinct automatically, no save, but creatures of intelligence 3 or higher can, as a Standard Action, roll a Will save to temporarily resist the instinct.

Success means that they can act without regard to the instinct for a number of rounds (not counting the current round) equal to their Wisdom bonus (min. 1). Might have to think of better wording here. I think that it's important that the voluntary attempt to reject the instinct should cost an action but that on a success they should be able to take some actual action (ie, their next full action).

If they fail the Will save then they must follow the Instinct for the next minute without getting any further saves. This would allow a would-be mind-slave to have those moments of conscience ("Leave before I kill you, I can't stop myself for long...") with the gamble that failure results in complete submission to the instinct.

A subject forced to take actions against its nature (a parent about to kill its offspring, a Drow forced to protect an elf villiage) receives a saving throw with a +2 bonus (similar to the Dominate spells) without having to use an action. If this occurs within a minute of a previously failed Will save against the instinct then no save is allowed, as per above. Subjects are aware of this and can make choices accordingly.

This way a creature (or player) always has the option to resist but at the potential cost of being unable to resist should they really need to resist. I think this would be much more interesting when used in actual play allowing the DM some options with NPCs, and even the players should this be turned on them.

The rest, limit on unsavable instincts in created creatures, description of instincts, conflicting instincts, all good. Only thing that I would add clarification on is the cost of this ability in a creature. You have already specified different effect for grafts and creatures, might as well list the creature cost as well for clarity. This is also an interesting balance point, do you want it to cost 250 or 150?



Mind-warping restructuring

I like the setup as an additional option on an existing instinct. I like the seperate duration option instead of trying to fit it into the wording. I like that the creature knows what triggered the condition. Only two things that I would tweak. The first is put a 10 word limit on the triggering statement. Currently it is unlimited and that can get nuts. The second is this...


... should the creature save against the instinct they are also immune to the application of that mythos tied to that instinct.

Keep these seperate. Let Mind-warping restructuring be used as a failsafe (Condition of 'Nauseated', trigger of 'resists instinct', duration of 5 rounds, etc.). Resisting one should not provide immunity to the other. And since you can only add one Mind-warping restructuring to each instinct the Kreikiri needs to decide whether he wants an instinct failsafe or some other trigger. This leads to some great choices for the player and some fun things for the DM to exploit.



Illusionary land-realignment

This is great and seems like it can be stacked with Mind-warping restructuring above, so double great. Only thing that I would add would be that the new perception would need to be described in 10 words or less as per normal.




Stitched nightmare

The language is cleaned up and it is now an extremely solid ability. Just...


Unlike a normal graft the one gained from this mythos does not have to be a single structure but rather its effect may be anywhere on your body (essentially your entire body is this graft).

... take this line out. It no longer has a purpose considering the changes you made to the previous wording.

Also, I can't remember if the features of the Mythos carying over after Reincarnation and such was there before but if not, that change is pure gold.


I'll finish off the rest shortly™. I haven't lost interest, just been busy/lazy.

Necroticplague
2015-03-12, 05:32 AM
Um, I think Paralystic Barb had some autocorrect issues while being written, because it seems like all instances of 'multiple' have 'mutable' instead. A lot of 'you may take this manifestation mutable times'.

Edit: Skill of the Flesh and Resculpting the Flesh also have this issue.

Edit Edit: Also, the title says this is a 3.5 class, but it references pathfinder things, like CMD, CMB, Bleed effects,and the Grab ability.

ThreadNecro5
2015-03-15, 02:15 PM
Um, I think Paralystic Barb had some autocorrect issues while being written, because it seems like all instances of 'multiple' have 'mutable' instead. A lot of 'you may take this manifestation mutable times'.

Edit: Skill of the Flesh and Resculpting the Flesh also have this issue.

Edit Edit: Also, the title says this is a 3.5 class, but it references pathfinder things, like CMD, CMB, Bleed effects,and the Grab ability.

I'll get around to fixing these errors. as for the accidental pathfinder mechanic references, those are an accidental inclusion that came about as I generally play pathfinder, and my experience with 3.5 is actually mainly limited to translating mechanics and such over, so a few rule differences I missed must have worked their way in. I usually check things over to make sure the mechanics are correct with 3.5 rules.


Taking a slight break from PEACHing the rest of the abilities (mainly since the Legendary and Exalted abilities can be so far-reaching and involved I keep thinking of new implications and so revising my opinions) I'll comment on some of your responses/changes made. Probably for the best since those changes are still (relatively) fresh and such.


I recommended the Disguise skill because it's essentially Craft (Fleshsculpting) when used with Structure shifting alterations. While the the Craft skill sounds better (Flesh is the medium of my art! Muwahahaha!), it is the Disguise skill that covers the mechanical effects of cosmetically altering someones appearance (something that most Kreikiri will probably be doing a lot of). As for mundane disguises, don't think of it as an infiltration skill (the Bard pretending to be a courtier or somesuch), think of it as a necessary survival skill. From a very early level this character will be making themselves, and others, appear to be quite monstrous. If they don't want to be chased out of town and burned at the stake then precautions will need to be taken. How to lash down those tentacles so that when cloaked you still present a human silhouette? Disguise skill. How to wear that veil/scarf so it doesn't look like you have a dragon muzzle? Disguise skill. Considering the physical changes that come with the grafts this skill might be required for basic human interaction. Just think about it is all I ask.

As for the Profession skill, remember, it's a catch-all skill for things that might not fit elsewhere, not just a pitifully small source of income. Profession (General) is usefull if you breed an army, and should that army conquer you may need to make rolls for Profession (Flesh Emperor). And if this class doesn't get Profession (Flesh Emperor) as a class skill who should? Who, I ask you? WHO?!? I'm joking. I'm half joking. I'm not joking at all. When eventually a roll for Flesh Emperor is made it cannot be lacking a class bonus. What are we, peasants?

you Make a good point for disguise with the whole 'needed for human interaction' thing, I never considered that as it seems I am a rather lenient GM in that regard. as for profession, Well I'm now adding it just so that roll may be made one day.


Even upon further reflection I still think that adding light armor proficiency and one martial or exotic weapon proficiency of choice is a good idea. Don't forget about these. If you have other thoughts on it I'd like to hear.

I meant to add those proficiency, must have got distracted.


as for all the stuff with 'Meat shearing butchers scalpel' I will clean it up and work in your idea for an additional advanced manifestation, thinking of causing 'Hunter’s claw' to instead transfer your weapon enchantments to a natural attack.



Creatures that can recover from the most grievous of wounds, going so far as to grow back limbs (and sometimes even heads), should be able to replenish the bits of muscle, ligament, and viscera that was removed from them. Tie this to the ability drain. A creature cannot be harvested for graft points again till the Con Drain has been healed. Because it is Drain it cannot be healed naturally (so normals cannot be re-harvested) but regenerating trolls or those affected by powerful magic (ie. Restoration) are valid targets once again.

I'm aware that you are concerned about this becoming a fountain of free Graft points but don't. The rate of Drain healing for regenerating creatures (1 point/week) is low enough that a troll harvest can only happen once every 1d6 weeks. That is a long time for the DM to screw with the players troll farm operation. Other options are either expensive (Restoration costs 100gp a cast, using that money to buy cattle would probably get a better gp/Graft point ratio) or high enough level to not be a real concern (Regenerate is a 7th ot 9th level spell after all, and you need to specify that this spell can heal all of the Con Drain from graft harvesting since healing ability drain is beyond the normal scope of the spell).

I like your ideas for this. will use them.



This is important enough that you should remove it from this paragraph and leave it seperate. Each time I look for it I keep skipping past it due to placement. I like how you did the limit, with a big jump at 15th and then letting them go nuts at 20th (level 20 is crazytown anyway). I think the rate needs some tweaking though. Going from 1/4 to 3/4 is... awkward. What about 2+ 1/3 levels goint to 2+ 2/3 levels at 15th. Gives a slight boost to the early levels, easier math, less ponderous progression, and, most importantly, gives an even number of attacks at 12th (last change before the big boost at 15).

will do. also the simpler math is probably a goods idea,as for my logic for removing the limit a level 20, well... the wizard is probably rewriting reality almost at will.


as dealing with resurrected characters and their grafts, I'l probably work it similarly to your suggestion.

as for the ability to 'break down' grafts i've intentionally not done that as I don't want graft point to become too cheep, but I might work it into a manifestation.

as for needing a manifestation to harvest particular creatures iv already added that you need something to touch the creature with first, so you already need to expend some resources for it.

i'll begin some alterations now, and reply to the rest of your comments tomorrow when I can think better (got a bit frustrated earlier when writing a mythos for something else).

Quarian Rex
2015-03-16, 06:58 AM
as for the ability to 'break down' grafts i've intentionally not done that as I don't want graft point to become too cheep, but I might work it into a manifestation.

The "too cheep" concern is an odd one. The key is trying to find the sweet spot where the player has enough to experiment with (particularly at low levels) so that the capabilities of this class can be used right out of the gate without destabilizing the game economy (this can be used to make magic items after all). I think a lot of the balance is cooked right into the rules that you already have. For the most part the cost of the graft is equal to the DC of implantation, limiting the ability of large Graft point pools to unbalance things too much.

By the time the player can start making truly disruptive grafts (duplicating magic items that are significantly better that mundane options) he will already have to have arranged an excessively large Graft point income/pool since useful magic items cost thousands of Graft points (at least). Once the Kreikiri has a farm of collossal sized, self-replicating, limbless, flesh-beasts at his disposal many of the limitations of his craft will fall away. Until then he will be trying to scrape the resources he needs off of the carcasses of the last low-level orc encounter.

Due to the way you have Graft point harvesting set up the lower levels will be especially starved. One or two HD medium sized creatures (or even small if your DM likes goblins and kobolds) and limited combat encounters will result in an extremely limited resource pool probably for the first few levels at least. I'm not complaining here, I think the values for Graft point harvesting are probably bang-on, just pointing out that it is going to be a slow start for this class to get into its schtick. And this class is about experimentation. Adding tentacles/claws/fangs/wings/hooves/eyes to oneself/fellow PCs/the town drunk may turn out to be a bad idea (for whatever reason) and the ability to correct the mistake and have the ability to try again is paramount, even with limited resources (especially with limited resources). After all, you want to encourage players to make mistakes (they can be soooo much fun for all envolved) and that won't happen if they get into the habit of thinking of every graft as an irrecoverable investment.

As you may have guessed, I think this needs to be an option. That said, the thought of having it as a manifestation is damn good. If it's a basic manifestation of Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker then there is the added opportunity cost of choosing it over the other options. Forcing the player to choose between versatility and utility is always interesting.




as for needing a manifestation to harvest particular creatures iv already added that you need something to touch the creature with first, so you already need to expend some resources for it.

I did notice that but it only applies to incorporeal creatures and that isn't really the concern. My main concern here is providing the gaming group (specifically the DM) some options. I have DM'd games with homebrew where things went way off the rails because the PCs had abilities (homebrew) that could take what I was throwing at them and then use it against me. That wasn't a problem with most encounters but sometimes you want the PCs to go up against something just a little out of their league, let them feel like they're punching above their weight class. When those mid-boss type abilities are now available to the PCs (in this class it would be due to Stable implement of empowerment) then either future combat encounters are trivialized or it forces an escalation of arms that will eventually only empower the PCs even more.

What I'm saying here is that having unrestricted harvesting access complicates the DMs job and so makes it even less likely for this particular homebrew to be accepted (it already allows the creation of permanent buffs and actual, permanent, creature creation). Give the DMs a break and give them the opportunity to decide which encounters can enhance the PCs abilities and which will not. Drawing a line between harvesting flesh, and harvesting the flesh of the fleshless, is a logically consistent option is all. Consider it is all I ask.



... reply to the rest of your comments tomorrow when I can think better (got a bit frustrated earlier when writing a mythos for something else).

Take your time good sir. Frustration is a side effect of trying to squeeze cool ideas onto a page. I can find if frustrating trying to organize my thoughts into something vaguely coherent just for these PEACH's and I'm not even the one who came up with any of it. There is a reason I tend to be a better editor than a writer.

ThreadNecro5
2015-03-16, 05:54 PM
now for the second part of my reply, i'll probably also need a third as iv little time.

as for your suggestion to limit the harvesting of certain creatures, iv added that, with the 'Organ tearing freakish overlord' mythos removing the limitation. seems an appropriate time considering what the manifestations could allow.


For the love of the baby Jebus H. Cristos, please no. This is a gamebreaker right here and throws balance right out the window. These mutations only work with the Evolutionist because once chosen they are more or less static (can only be changed on level-up). Having them as an option on grafts (even with the minor nerfing you have done here) makes the Kreikiri the premier spellcaster in the game. They have grater spell access than Wizards (no need for a spellbook, automatic access to Psionic Powers, and then eventually they can select from Cleric, Druid, Artificer, etc lists once the other mutation lists open up). They can create grafts for new spells in minutes and implant in only an hour (or a single full atack if using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry). Most damning of all, this can be done cheaply.

it seems that this ability has implications I did not realize, also I suppose the use of wands would work for getting spells, I personally always forget about them.





Perhaps 'unaging' would be better than immortal, no questions of whether the creature can actually be killed or not. Also, +5 points? In reality this is more of a flavour thing (most campaigns would not go on long enough for it to make a difference), but do you want it to be that cheap? Just wondering.

as you said it is unlikely to come up, and if it is going to be needed, then it is probably something that is fundamental to the creature's function. as for the name, generally isn't unageing what immortality usually refers to in the game?


Seriously, just remove reference to the added features being grafts. It just muddies things. Saying something like...

"During creation you may spend Graft points to add capabilities (and limbs, sensory organs, etc.) to a creature just as you would to a graft and these become natural parts of the creatures’ anatomy, making up the basic appearance and form of the creature, as well as that of any offspring it may produce. The graft point cost for any features and augmentations contained within the creature is increased by five times its base cost, and magic items have their base cost tripled (for a net cost of x5 for features and augmentations, and x3 for magic items). The creature counts as a single graft for the purposes of stacking features and such."

This way the language clarifies that any upgrade to your grafting abilities (can add mutations, etc.) apply to creatures, and also that the creature is considered to be a single graft for feature stacking purposes. Previously you could add Skill-of-the-flesh once each to however many grafts to get around the stacking penalty. Wording like this negates that kind of shenanigans.

will work this in then., also will make the other changes for the augments.


Holy crapsnacks, what a turnaround! This is good. This is interesting. The chance to lose limbs, racial abilities (but not ability modifiers, size, etc.), and even subtype so that they can come back (mechanicaly) not quite human is very good. It combines to make a perfect homage to the Frankenstien thing you seem to be going for. Even the ability loss (with a chance of no loss) is now within reason (and potential recuperation).

The only real comments I have are that you just need to say how long the Heal check takes and remove the reference to grafts as I suggested above. In fact, just make this an additional option when harvesting Graft points. Say that the harvesting always counts as a vivisection (reduces graft points even on an already dead creature) that can retain the creatures mind on a Heal check of etc., etc.

Also, this is a manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord, let it use those rules (remove reference to grafts as I mentioned above), it's more consistent. As for cost, just make it all half the cost of a normal creature. You are still, essentially, adding new racial features so it shouldn't be as cheap as a graft, but not as costly as making a creature whole-cloth.

will make it work more along the same line as everything else when doing the changes.


See my first post for comments. They still stand, especially for the activation time. How do you see this ability being used at the game table, and on what targets? Right now it just seems like it would break down in actual play.

will make the previously suggested changes. as for the targets that it would be used on, I was intending it to be used on any sort of suitable creature the player wanted to acquire for grafitng and such, or for taking control of a creature in a dungeon crawl situation.


You have done some interesting work on this one but it does bring up some more questions both about what you have said and what you have not said. The main thing I have to ask is, what do you see this ability as being? Is it a boosted animal companion with some extra options? Is it a general companion/bodyguard/henchman replacement? Is it the chance to make a single creature with the class' signature ability that you don't have to worry about turning on you/DM dickery? Right now you seem to be sitting on the fence about what this can do and I think that the ability is suffering for it. You say that it is created like a creature (good) but then limit the types of creature it can be (no Humanoid, Monstrous Humanoid, Magical Beast, Outsider, or Vermin, despite vermin being used in a later example). You allow selecting different creature types then say that the creature type has no effect on most of its characteristics (HD size, BAB, skills, saves, etc.). This seems... like a mistake.

i'll be making a number of clarifications with this ability. as for creature types, it does allow any type, its just that the ones shown in the table have an additional cost. as for the creature types not changing the characteristics that's intended to have the different creature types only offer the traits of their type, and to help balance the creature types.


If you are going to be straddling the line between Animal Companions and Henchmen (which, for the record, I think is a pretty brilliant idea) then you need to sharply define where it crosses from being one to being the other. That and bring it more in line with the rules for each.

Start with changing the base HD to Kreikiri levels -2 (as with henchmen) instead of equal to your level. This way it starts slightly worse than the equivalent animal companion (so not completely overshadowing another PCs class ability) but is infinitely more versatile. The HD catch up with Animal Companions at 11th and wind up being higher by 15th. This provides a nice pregression, not destroying the competition when you first get it bit staying relevent at higher levels. Say that HD size, BAB, saves, skill points, feats, and normal attribute increases (once every 4 HD) progress as per normal for their HD and creature type (adjusting alternate creature type costs to compensate) but that they gain Natural Armor Bonus, Str/Dex Bonus, Bonus Tricks (if of animal intelligence), and Special abilities as per the Animal Companion class ability of a Druid of the Kreikiri's level. Say that the companions Intelligence must be lowered to animal levels (1 or 2) using Decreased Potential (granting extra points as usual), is automatically considered to be unaging and so cannot select Cascade of Life (no breeding for you!).

i'm not sure what you mean by a henchman, do you mean something like a cohort?, Iv searched for a feat for something that references a henchmen but cant find one. as for the later changes you suggested i'll add them, with the specification of if the creature is INT 3 or more they are fully sapient.


As an option (or even as an advanced manifestation), the Kreikiri could grant the Companion sapience. For the cost of 100 Graft points (maybe more, maybe less?) the Intelligence limit may be removed. Should this option be chosen the Kreikiri may convert one HD into a class level of chouce at the cost of 25 Graft points. This option may me chosen multiple times with the cost doubling for each additional HD converted (25 for the first, 50 for the second, 100 for the third, 200 fourth, etc). Any requirements for these class levels (in the case of PRC's and such) must be met by the creature before they can be selected. The costs for these two options (sapience and HD conversion) must be paid from the Kreikiri's Graft point reserve, not with the points provided by this mythos, representing the additional effort required to uplift his fleshy experiment.

now this here is interesting, i'll ad it in.

will also amend creature type costs.

[QUOTE=Quarian Rex;18936783]The benefits of this seem somewhat bland. What if the graft capability of the Companion was standard +1 (a little under the Kreikiri himself) but this provided an extra 2+1/4 level grafts? Same resulting total but this is a little more attractive and not an automatic skip in favour of Re-genesis gambit.


will use this then

Ill do the remainder of your comment at a later date, probably after all the changes here are done.

Quarian Rex
2015-03-17, 10:54 AM
as for your suggestion to limit the harvesting of certain creatures, iv added that, with the 'Organ tearing freakish overlord' mythos removing the limitation. seems an appropriate time considering what the manifestations could allow.

Nice. Good place to add it. Just make sure that it's a basic manifestation instead of part of the base ability. It forces more choices and seems like a comparable option to the other manefestations.



it seems that this ability has implications I did not realize, also I suppose the use of wands would work for getting spells, I personally always forget about them.

Me so happy.



as for the name, generally isn't unageing what immortality usually refers to in the game?

Kind of. Immortality isn't usually a term used outside of fluff. Since it implies immunity to mortality some think it includes immunity to death effects and death in general. If you say unageing there is no argument about whether Finger of Death will take effect. If you say immortality (without then stating concrete game mechanics as to exactly what you mean) then you open a can of worms. I have had these arguments at the game table. They are frustrating. I try to avoid them.



i'll be making a number of clarifications with this ability. as for creature types, it does allow any type, its just that the ones shown in the table have an additional cost. as for the creature types not changing the characteristics that's intended to have the different creature types only offer the traits of their type, and to help balance the creature types.

I understand where you're coming from as far as trying to balance the stats, but if you are going to be assigning costs based on creature type you might as well adjust the costs based on all of the types characteristics. The main thing here is having consistency across the class. You can already make creatures of all kinds of types (with the full stats of the creature type) as a basic ability of this class. Now, as a higher level ability, you can finally make a single creature that is completely loyal to you but there are wierd, unintuitive, limitations. Want to balance types with a full BAB? Increase the cost of that type. Want to balance types with three good saves? Increase the cost.

All these things can already be created. For the cost of a Fantastic Mythos you are allowing one of these creations to get a buff and have baked in loyalty. I think that's a fair trade. No need to stack on additional limitations.



i'm not sure what you mean by a henchman, do you mean something like a cohort?, Iv searched for a feat for something that references a henchmen but cant find one.

Yup, I meant exactly a Cohort. Not sure why I was saying henchmen so much. Sorry to confuse things.

Looking forward to seeing the changes.

ThreadNecro5
2015-03-21, 06:29 PM
will now finish my reply, I have completed the changes I mention in prior posts. if I have missed any please point them out.


This is odd. In my previous recomendation I meant that the duration should be modified by the victims Wis modifier. That way the max-Wis Cleric will be able to come to terms with his new predicament relatively quickly but the low-Wis Renfield type will be gibbering like a madman for extra time.

You might want to change it to something like...

"... identical to a non-magical confusion spell that lasts for 2d6 rounds, to which you subtract a number of rounds duration up to the victims wisdom modifier (note that a negative wisdom modifier will result in a longer duration), and you may use the handle animal skill..."

used your wording. the original idea behind my wording is that if you wanted to you could lengthen the duration if you used the mythos to just, for example, grab a villager or guard or someone to that effect and use them as an expendable distraction.


I get that you want mindless minions to retain something of what they were but this is worded oddly. As is, it sounds like they lose their level feats but retain bonus feats (like from being a fighter) and retain all of their skill ranks. This seems off and problematic. A mindless creature should not retain all of its previous sage-like knowledge, and as for feats, what if it loses a prereq? How about changing it to something like...

fixed the wording.


This I see as problematic. With this line you can walk into a villiage, give everyone in town a 'makeover', and then leave them in gibbering chaos. Since you're not around they stop taking Int drain (indeed, they never even start) and when you swing back in a week ot a month you have an entire villiage full of minions. This just doesn't work, and actually goes against the spirit of the class since at 7th level you can now have perfect mind-control over your minions.

This line also steps all over the toes of Mental-lords’ unity. You have a good balance of having to carefully choose limited wording for limited instincts, leaving open all kinds of opportunities for roleplaying, creative interpretation, and shenanigans. That's even part of the basic balance of the class. You can make cool minions but it is really hard to make them into perfect mind-slaves. That one line throws all that right out the window. Please reconsider.

I forgot to specify that this only effects creatures whom you payed mythos points to have retain their intelligence.


Dropping it down so that each purchase of this feature provides only a single instinct seems like a good call. It forces the player to prioritize instructions and/or get creative with them.

by this to you mean limit the instinct to one/time you pay for instincts on creatures?


Boosting the DC for multiple implants of the same instinct? Great idea. The wording of the rest? We need to talk. You should probably treat this as a long-term Charm/Dominate hybrid. You want the control from a graft to be shakey but not all-or-nothing so having them make a save on implantation doesn't really work. The +5 bonus to save is a little nuts (you may have pulled this from the Charm Person spell, but that is only there if you're trying to convince someone that you're their friend after you've stabbed them). And you haven't clearly defined the effects of a successful save. Is the instinct now useless? Do they only have a temporary reprieve?

How about no initial save. They had to be rendered helpless for at least an hour to have the instinct graft implanted so lets just let it take effect. The saves should be against individual triggerings of the instinct, not to permanently nullify the entire graft feature. Mindless and animal level intelligence creatures will follow the instinct automatically, no save, but creatures of intelligence 3 or higher can, as a Standard Action, roll a Will save to temporarily resist the instinct.

Success means that they can act without regard to the instinct for a number of rounds (not counting the current round) equal to their Wisdom bonus (min. 1). Might have to think of better wording here. I think that it's important that the voluntary attempt to reject the instinct should cost an action but that on a success they should be able to take some actual action (ie, their next full action).

If they fail the Will save then they must follow the Instinct for the next minute without getting any further saves. This would allow a would-be mind-slave to have those moments of conscience ("Leave before I kill you, I can't stop myself for long...") with the gamble that failure results in complete submission to the instinct.

A subject forced to take actions against its nature (a parent about to kill its offspring, a Drow forced to protect an elf villiage) receives a saving throw with a +2 bonus (similar to the Dominate spells) without having to use an action. If this occurs within a minute of a previously failed Will save against the instinct then no save is allowed, as per above. Subjects are aware of this and can make choices accordingly.

This way a creature (or player) always has the option to resist but at the potential cost of being unable to resist should they really need to resist. I think this would be much more interesting when used in actual play allowing the DM some options with NPCs, and even the players should this be turned on them.

will make your suggested changes. what you are saying was what I originally wanted to do, but couldn't find a wording that I was satisfied with.

will also make the changes to the manifestations.


The language is cleaned up and it is now an extremely solid ability. Just...

... take this line out. It no longer has a purpose considering the changes you made to the previous wording.

will corect this.



Also, I can't remember if the features of the Mythos carying over after Reincarnation and such was there before but if not, that change is pure gold.

thats new wording, I realized that would be an important thing to be specific about as it is a one-time procedure, so it would be rather crippling if you could loose it.

edit:
also slightly altering how 'Ever-shifting protean-mastery' works to better work with how graft production works (Limb-shredding graft-taker has went through a few different variation since Ever-shifting protean-mastery was written). as you may have noticed it still references a roll to create grafts instead of to attach them. making it so that you immediately make a roll to attack the graft to yourself as an internalized graft with a +4 bonus, and if you fail you may not attempt to make another internalized graft for 24 hours.

Quarian Rex
2015-04-14, 11:53 AM
Apologies for slow-posting. I've been getting distracted by shiny things in the real world but I do really want to see this class finished. To that end...

Great job so far. Everything is much more clear. I'll just go through a quick rundown of some of the changes made. This should be quick, most issues I found just seem to be spelling/copy-paste errors.

On that note, when you get some time you should do a Ctrl+f search for the letter 'k'. You seem to have a habit of hitting 'k' instead of 'h' when typing, leading to fun things like such->suck and attach->attack.





Meat shearing butchers scalpel
Hunter’s claw



Should you somehow loose access to this natural attack (suck as through the limb being severed), the required parts to use it (including any limb it may be attacked to).

This sentence just needs to be finished.




Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker



Any creature may be given no more natural attacks from grafts than 2+ 1/3 of the level of the Kreikiri Appling the graft, increasing to 2/3 their HD at level 15 and the limit being removed at level 20.

Just a clarification here. Did you want the progression to go from 6 attacks at level 12 (2+1/3 per level) to 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or to 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level)? Whichever you decide, just put in an example of how many at 15 to remove any confusion.



A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be resurrected...

Just change resurrected to raised. Raising requires a mostly whole body, while resurrection only needs a toe. I think the raise option is more what you're going for here.

Also, just remove the bolded parts of this line...


Should a creature with grafts be resurrected, if the spell is capable of resurrecting a creature with a destroyed body, destroyed grafts are restored.

While True Resurrection is the spell that restores a destroyed body (disintegrate and such), even standard Resurrection can heal everything from only the smallest scrap of flesh. Clarify the difference between raising and resurrecting and the spells do the rest of the work for you.




Monster-Making Beast-Lord
Created creature



You do not control the actions of the Created creature, although nothing stops you from creating an initial personality that wants to serve you (see Mental-lords’ unity for more information).

Try adding the bolded part, or something like it. Current wording makes it sound like you can just make them subservient and loyal automatically which really shouldn't be the case.



Cascade of Life



For +50 points the created creature may gain the ability to reproduce with a specific type of creature (or specific subtype in the case of Humanoids and Outsiders) within one size category and of the same type. The offspring will always breed true, sharing the characteristics of the created creature.

Bolded parts are needed here as well. Humanoid and Outsider types are too broad to allow total access and so should be specified a bit (same as what is done with a Ranger's Favored Enemy). Also, this is a feature paying to expand the breeding options for your created creature, not to force the DM to figure out rules for half-breeds. The last part makes sure the DM knows where to stand on this.



Man-is-monster restoration



To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (dead targets add + 10 to the DC), +1 per day the creature is dead.

Need to clarify the DC here. Is the +10 to DC for being dead an additional modifier of just a reflection of the creature being at -10 Hp to achieve death? With the current wording the DCs cover a range that I don't think you intend.

For example, current language results in...
Harvesting someone stabilized at -3 Hp would be DC 23 (20 + 3 for negative Hp)
Harvesting someone recently dead from Hp damage would be DC 40 (20 + 10 for neg. Hp + 10 for being dead)
Harvesting someone dead for 2 days from a death effect (no Hp damage) would be DC 32 (20 + 10 for being dead + 2 for time)

Perhaps change the wording to something like...

"To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (up to a max. of + 10 to the DC, or if the target is dead), +1 per day the creature is dead. "

This would provide a non-Epic DC and cover any niche cases that would do weird things to the DC (like someone using Delay Death spell, or if the group was using Pathfinder up-to-minus-Con-score death and dying rules)




Beastmaster's Coiled Lash
Beast Mastering Hand



The creature becomes under your control and will attempt to follow your commands (as per a Dominate Animal spell) for a number of minutes equal to how much you exceeded the DC of the handle animal check (or only one round should you have rolled equal to the DC)

Add the bolded part. I think you had that in an earlier version but it seems to have gotten lost in a rewrite.




Paralytic Barb
Venom Squirt



• Or it may be fired directly as a ranged touch attack with a 10ft range increment.
In either case the target(s) hit by the venom have a percentage chance of being unaffected equal to 10+ double their armour bonus + their shield bonus. Additionally your venom now permanently becomes a contact poison.

This odd percentage miss chance is combersome. If you want that effect, just say that anyone wearing armour that covers their entire body (including face) gets concealment against the attack. Or, if you want armour to be effective against the attack just make it a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack.

Either option is far better than the DM having to break down the AC totals on every target.




Anatomy-twisting bestial-genesis

Great changes overall, though I'd just suggest reversing this...


This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level -2 as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level.

The abilities and bonuses for an Animal Conpanion are fine at counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. The HD of the companion are the important part and the real balance point and should be at -2. Just a change to ...

"This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level -2."

... would balance the power of the creature.

As for the creature type costs... looks good. The only thing I keep coming back to is the cost for Undead/Constructs. It seems a little high considering how bad most of their features are (Wizard BAB, crap saves, limited Hp, etc.) but even with that I would only recomend going down to 80, and even that I'm not sure about. This is one of those things that will need some playtesting. The key thing is that the Kreikiri can now afford to give an Undead/Construct minion a full set of limbs when he first picks up the mythos.




Power-stealing aberrant-liege

It's been a while since I took a look at this one and it has gotten me thinking. Specifically this...


Creatures that have been effected by an effect that empowers someone using a mythos are classed as having an amount of mythos points equal to 1/4th of the amount of mythos points it would cost to purchase the mythos used, unless some other points-based medium is used in the mythos, using the value of points used instead, e.g. a creature with a Kreikiri–granted graft counts as having an amount equal to the amount of points used to make the graft. Once all the equivalent amount of MP possessed by the target is drained by the effects of this mythos, the target becomes unable to benefit from the mythos they were effected by for 3d10 hours after which it again becomes useful. You may not gain mythos points with this mythos from a subject you caused to become an eligible target unless outside sources were involved, such as if you created a creature that later became a teramach or Kreikiri itself, without your involvement, e.g. you cannot use this on someone who is only eligible through a graft you gave them.

... the bolded parts in particular. I think you should remove that limitation. Now hear me out. If grafts can be drained, let them be drained regardless of where they are from. Trying to put these kinds of limitations on things only forces the players to pull some convoluted plan out of their butt (like doing all of their grafting through a proxy) that will get them those MP, and will annoy the DM. You might as well balance around this fact.

I realize your concern about an infinite river of Mythos Points but this is similar to Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry vs. the cutlery smashing Teramach. The return on investment here is going to be relatively small and with some minor adjustments it should be well within the realms of balance.

Just make it known that this is an assault upon the targets very being, that the Kreikiri is scraping off a piece of their essence, consuming it as they watch, and that it feels just like it sounds. State that continued use of this on someone (and it will have to be used continually on a target, considering the relatively small amount of MP siphoned per use) is equivalent to being tortured and will have a suitable effect on the targets disposition towards the Kreikiri. This way he can't enhance minions/henchmen/party members and then harvest MP without consequence.

The Mythos Points available should be adjusted a bit as well. Currently you can siphon 1/4 the MP value of an empowering ability and the full Graft Point cost of grafts and such. I would suggest a change to 1/5 value for each. This way Leach of legends allows the Kreikiri to essentially get full access to the potential power. Also, the ability to 'double-dip' needs to be addressed. Specify that the MP harvested from empowered creatures is finite and does not regenerate with time. Further, any grafts that have been fully drained should be incapable of being re-harvested, crumbling into useless dust should it be attempted. This way you have a one-way Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion method of varying efficiency. A last thought on the base ability is that you should probably state that created creatures are not considered to be empowered for the purposes of this ability. The Graft Points used in their creation are now their racial abilities, no more empowering than stonecunning on a dwarf.

Legend-burnout ash harvester


An amount of HP equal to your Kreikiri level multiplied by five is the maximum amount of HP that the target may lose per use of this mythos. If this manifestation’s use results in the loss of hit points in the target, you may not use this mythos again, on any target, for 1d4 rounds.

I think you should remove these limitations. Both are kind of pointless due to how this mythos already works. Anything with saves so bad to let you inflict that much damage will be low HD enough to never get close to the limit. Anything with enough HP to make the limit useful will have good enough saves to limit the damage actually done (even after Leach of legends).

As for the 1d4 round wait period, not necessary. Under just about every combat situation using this ability is sub-optimal. It is a standard action (so no full attacks on a character who probably has a boat-load of natural attacks) with very limited damage potential (the only way to increase it is by boosting the DC, not an easy thing to do). Waiting between attacks is done to space out powerful abilities that can unbalance combat (like breath weapons). That does not apply to this ability, even after the heavy investment of Leach of legends. If the player wants to limit combat output for small long-term gains (remember, it takes thousands of MP to actually be useful) then that is a decision that I think they should be free to make.




Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry



Once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it becomes zealously loyal to you, and its entire personality warps to consider what you did to it an improvement.

I didn't realize that you had limited it to creatures that you spent MP on but it doesn't change the reason it's bugging me. It's the perfect control aspect that is a game-breaker. And it's cheap perfect control. Walk up to a troll/giant/dragon/whatever, give it a scratch, attach a horn or something, and hang arount till it's stupid. Spend enough MP to have a useful Int (3 or higher to understand language) and you now have a perfectly controlled chassis for further augmentation. Rinse and repeat. No saves, no HD limits, just a growing army of perfect minions. This is the problem.

I see where you want this to go though, and I think you can do a better job with the mechanics you already have. How about once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it is considered to be a created creature for the purpose of grafts containing instincts from the Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during the use of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. Specifiy that instances of Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry do not count toward the maximum that can be applied to a created creature. This adds a beautiful risk vs reward dynamic, integrates your existing systems, and avoids the problem of perfect control. As an added kicker you can say that once Int drain has stopped (and been paid for etc.) the Kreikiri can still "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. When around the one who remade them a victim will always feel, and respond, as little more than a beast.

You should also address the mindless option. Currently there isn't too much reason to spend MP for low Int when you can just leave them mindless for free, following whatever instincts you managed to give them with Mental-lords’ unity. How about saying that any creature that gets to the mindless state due to this Mythos is overcome with the pain of its transformation and violently lashes out at anything animate around it, including the Kreikiri. This way you can have cages filled with kill-crazy death-beasts that can be sicked on ones foes, via Handle Animal, but are just as dangerous to their master if they do not have something else to chew on.




Ever-shifting protean-mastery

The more I think about it, the more I think that you need to get rid of the attachment roll for grafts in this Mythos. The limitations of the mythos, the limited number active at once and especially the Graft Point limits, are strong (yet interesting) enough to remove the need for any further limits. Consider the Graft Point limit. At 10 point/level this gives 70+ point grafts by the time this mythos can be chosen, resulting in DCs of 70+ (unachievable by anything within reason) for standard feature grafts, yet the point limit is far too low to allow any kind of magic item to be added.

Let these grafts, and only these grafts, be used to their full potential. Due to their limited number and high feature limit it will greatly encourage hyper-specialization of the grafts and therefore create interesting choices for the Kreikiri, rather than becoming the more general jack-of-all-trades that the external grafts would otherwise encourage.

As a balance point to the automatic attachment of these Grafts I suggest you change the combined creation/attachment time to something like 8 or 24 hrs so that the hyper-specialization requires some forethought.



I'll see if I can get a PEACH on the Excellency’s in the next few days and then on to the higher Mythos.

ThreadNecro5
2015-04-21, 01:15 PM
Apologies for slow-posting. I've been getting distracted by shiny things in the real world but I do really want to see this class finished. To that end...

Great job so far. Everything is much more clear. I'll just go through a quick rundown of some of the changes made. This should be quick, most issues I found just seem to be spelling/copy-paste errors.

On that note, when you get some time you should do a Ctrl+f search for the letter 'k'. You seem to have a habit of hitting 'k' instead of 'h' when typing, leading to fun things like such->suck and attach->attack.

good to see your back, and yes hitting the wrong Keys tends to be a problem of mine, I usually relay on spell check to sort these things so stuff like that tends to leak through, I'l get to work on the errors.


This sentence just needs to be finished.

will fix this, must have gotten distracted.


Just a clarification here. Did you want the progression to go from 6 attacks at level 12 (2+1/3 per level) to 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or to 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level)? Whichever you decide, just put in an example of how many at 15 to remove any confusion.

whenever I try the math myself it always breaks down and I cant calculate it (I have one of those brains that just sort of turns of when math is involved). I think adding wording along the lines of 'recalculated with 2/3 their HD instead of 1/3 at level 15.' should sort out any confusion while preventing me form having to do any math that is likely to be incorrect and thus causing more confusion.


Just change resurrected to raised. Raising requires a mostly whole body, while resurrection only needs a toe. I think the raise option is more what you're going for here.

will fix this. my old gaming group's only resurrection was a reincarnate spell so these spells are not something I am familiar with terminology wise.


Also, just remove the bolded parts of this line...

While True Resurrection is the spell that restores a destroyed body (disintegrate and such), even standard Resurrection can heal everything from only the smallest scrap of flesh. Clarify the difference between raising and resurrecting and the spells do the rest of the work for you.

this was another manifestation of my lack of familiarity with resurrection spells. will fix this as well.



Try adding the bolded part, or something like it. Current wording makes it sound like you can just make them subservient and loyal automatically which really shouldn't be the case.

will correct this, its leftover wording from what the feature was based off. will remove this part.


Bolded parts are needed here as well. Humanoid and Outsider types are too broad to allow total access and so should be specified a bit (same as what is done with a Ranger's Favored Enemy). Also, this is a feature paying to expand the breeding options for your created creature, not to force the DM to figure out rules for half-breeds. The last part makes sure the DM knows where to stand on this.

will add this in. by type I originally meant that in the general usage, rather than mechanical, definition.


Need to clarify the DC here. Is the +10 to DC for being dead an additional modifier of just a reflection of the creature being at -10 Hp to achieve death? With the current wording the DCs cover a range that I don't think you intend.

For example, current language results in...
Harvesting someone stabilized at -3 Hp would be DC 23 (20 + 3 for negative Hp)
Harvesting someone recently dead from Hp damage would be DC 40 (20 + 10 for neg. Hp + 10 for being dead)
Harvesting someone dead for 2 days from a death effect (no Hp damage) would be DC 32 (20 + 10 for being dead + 2 for time)

Perhaps change the wording to something like...

"To do this you make a heal check on a dead or dying creature with a DC of 20 + 1 per point the targets hit points are below zero (up to a max. of + 10 to the DC, or if the target is dead), +1 per day the creature is dead. "

This would provide a non-Epic DC and cover any niche cases that would do weird things to the DC (like someone using Delay Death spell, or if the group was using Pathfinder up-to-minus-Con-score death and dying rules)

will do this.


Add the bolded part. I think you had that in an earlier version but it seems to have gotten lost in a rewrite.

I think I did, will re-add the wording.


This odd percentage miss chance is combersome. If you want that effect, just say that anyone wearing armour that covers their entire body (including face) gets concealment against the attack. Or, if you want armour to be effective against the attack just make it a ranged attack instead of a ranged touch attack.

Either option is far better than the DM having to break down the AC totals on every target.

will fix with the first sugstion.


Great changes overall, though I'd just suggest reversing this...

The abilities and bonuses for an Animal Conpanion are fine at counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. The HD of the companion are the important part and the real balance point and should be at -2. Just a change to ...

"This mythos grants you an animal companion, counting your Kreikiri level as your druid level. Additionally instead of selecting a normal animal to use you instead create a creature for free with ‘Monster-making beast-lord’ that always has a number of hit dice equal to your Kreikiri level -2."

... would balance the power of the creature.

As for the creature type costs... looks good. The only thing I keep coming back to is the cost for Undead/Constructs. It seems a little high considering how bad most of their features are (Wizard BAB, crap saves, limited Hp, etc.) but even with that I would only recomend going down to 80, and even that I'm not sure about. This is one of those things that will need some playtesting. The key thing is that the Kreikiri can now afford to give an Undead/Construct minion a full set of limbs when he first picks up the mythos.

will adjsut the costs and add the HD reduction.


It's been a while since I took a look at this one and it has gotten me thinking. Specifically this...

... the bolded parts in particular. I think you should remove that limitation. Now hear me out. If grafts can be drained, let them be drained regardless of where they are from. Trying to put these kinds of limitations on things only forces the players to pull some convoluted plan out of their butt (like doing all of their grafting through a proxy) that will get them those MP, and will annoy the DM. You might as well balance around this fact.

I realize your concern about an infinite river of Mythos Points but this is similar to Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry vs. the cutlery smashing Teramach. The return on investment here is going to be relatively small and with some minor adjustments it should be well within the realms of balance.

Just make it known that this is an assault upon the targets very being, that the Kreikiri is scraping off a piece of their essence, consuming it as they watch, and that it feels just like it sounds. State that continued use of this on someone (and it will have to be used continually on a target, considering the relatively small amount of MP siphoned per use) is equivalent to being tortured and will have a suitable effect on the targets disposition towards the Kreikiri. This way he can't enhance minions/henchmen/party members and then harvest MP without consequence.

The Mythos Points available should be adjusted a bit as well. Currently you can siphon 1/4 the MP value of an empowering ability and the full Graft Point cost of grafts and such. I would suggest a change to 1/5 value for each. This way Leach of legends allows the Kreikiri to essentially get full access to the potential power. Also, the ability to 'double-dip' needs to be addressed. Specify that the MP harvested from empowered creatures is finite and does not regenerate with time. Further, any grafts that have been fully drained should be incapable of being re-harvested, crumbling into useless dust should it be attempted. This way you have a one-way Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion method of varying efficiency. A last thought on the base ability is that you should probably state that created creatures are not considered to be empowered for the purposes of this ability. The Graft Points used in their creation are now their racial abilities, no more empowering than stonecunning on a dwarf.

will add in your thoughts


Legend-burnout ash harvester

I think you should remove these limitations. Both are kind of pointless due to how this mythos already works. Anything with saves so bad to let you inflict that much damage will be low HD enough to never get close to the limit. Anything with enough HP to make the limit useful will have good enough saves to limit the damage actually done (even after Leach of legends).

As for the 1d4 round wait period, not necessary. Under just about every combat situation using this ability is sub-optimal. It is a standard action (so no full attacks on a character who probably has a boat-load of natural attacks) with very limited damage potential (the only way to increase it is by boosting the DC, not an easy thing to do). Waiting between attacks is done to space out powerful abilities that can unbalance combat (like breath weapons). That does not apply to this ability, even after the heavy investment of Leach of legends. If the player wants to limit combat output for small long-term gains (remember, it takes thousands of MP to actually be useful) then that is a decision that I think they should be free to make.

will remove the limitations then.


I didn't realize that you had limited it to creatures that you spent MP on but it doesn't change the reason it's bugging me. It's the perfect control aspect that is a game-breaker. And it's cheap perfect control. Walk up to a troll/giant/dragon/whatever, give it a scratch, attach a horn or something, and hang arount till it's stupid. Spend enough MP to have a useful Int (3 or higher to understand language) and you now have a perfectly controlled chassis for further augmentation. Rinse and repeat. No saves, no HD limits, just a growing army of perfect minions. This is the problem.

I see where you want this to go though, and I think you can do a better job with the mechanics you already have. How about once a creature whom you spent mythos points on to leave with an intelligence score stops taking intelligence drain, it is considered to be a created creature for the purpose of grafts containing instincts from the Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during the use of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. Specifiy that instances of Mental-lords’ unity mythos added during Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry do not count toward the maximum that can be applied to a created creature. This adds a beautiful risk vs reward dynamic, integrates your existing systems, and avoids the problem of perfect control. As an added kicker you can say that once Int drain has stopped (and been paid for etc.) the Kreikiri can still "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. When around the one who remade them a victim will always feel, and respond, as little more than a beast.

You should also address the mindless option. Currently there isn't too much reason to spend MP for low Int when you can just leave them mindless for free, following whatever instincts you managed to give them with Mental-lords’ unity. How about saying that any creature that gets to the mindless state due to this Mythos is overcome with the pain of its transformation and violently lashes out at anything animate around it, including the Kreikiri. This way you can have cages filled with kill-crazy death-beasts that can be sicked on ones foes, via Handle Animal, but are just as dangerous to their master if they do not have something else to chew on.

I like your ideas here, still on the fence of the final paragraph's suggestions.


The more I think about it, the more I think that you need to get rid of the attachment roll for grafts in this Mythos. The limitations of the mythos, the limited number active at once and especially the Graft Point limits, are strong (yet interesting) enough to remove the need for any further limits. Consider the Graft Point limit. At 10 point/level this gives 70+ point grafts by the time this mythos can be chosen, resulting in DCs of 70+ (unachievable by anything within reason) for standard feature grafts, yet the point limit is far too low to allow any kind of magic item to be added.

Let these grafts, and only these grafts, be used to their full potential. Due to their limited number and high feature limit it will greatly encourage hyper-specialization of the grafts and therefore create interesting choices for the Kreikiri, rather than becoming the more general jack-of-all-trades that the external grafts would otherwise encourage.

As a balance point to the automatic attachment of these Grafts I suggest you change the combined creation/attachment time to something like 8 or 24 hrs so that the hyper-specialization requires some forethought.

will do this.

as a final thing to ad, iv also changed 'Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece' I wound up posting an older version of they mythos and accidentally deleted the correct version, which is slightly different and fixes a few pathfinder/3.5 rule mix-ups that worked their way in.

and thanks again for the continuation of your PEACH.

Yasahiro
2015-04-23, 08:22 PM
Here is what I wonder about.


• The creature possess a larval stage that it stays in for at least half of its childhood, designed by you as a creature with a number of graft points spend on it equal to half of what the creature itself cost + however many additional points you wish to spend (at the time of selecting this option). For at least the last 10% of the creatures’ childhood it is in some form of a developmental stage such as a pupa or growing limbs for its adult form, you determine any limitations of this development form e.g. immobile. This costs 4 points

Why is this a cost? It sounds more like a thing that makes the creature's offspring weaker, thus it should be reduction of the cost, methinks

Necroticplague
2015-04-23, 09:10 PM
Here is what I wonder about.



Why is this a cost? It sounds more like a thing that makes the creature's offspring weaker, thus it should be reduction of the cost, methinks

There isn't a requirement for the adult and child forms to have the same grafts, so there's an increase in versatility from having different uses an adult and child. So you might have children that are practically invisible being scouts for their considerably more magical adults.

Yasahiro
2015-04-23, 10:11 PM
That makes sense.

Another question. Assume a player wants to play as Keikiri created creature. What is their LA? Can they replace one HD with HD of class level as some can? How do you determine the CR?

Quarian Rex
2015-04-24, 11:45 PM
On to the Excellencies.




Resculpting the flesh

This is all kinds of interesting. Love what it does and the options for taking it multiple times. Only two things need to be done. First, replace 'took' with 'taken' in the first two sentences of the third paragraph. Second, state whether racial stat penalties are considered to be racial weakneses. I think that you should probably let them be removed, either with the initial purchase or with taking it a second time. Whatever you decide, just spell it out.

As an afterthought, how about adding some synergy with Man-is-monster restoration? Perhaps if the Kreikiri has this Excellency when harvesting a creature with Man-is-monster restoration he has the option to remove/retain any racial traits that survive/are lost the initial purge with an appropriate Heal check. Remaking a Drow or Orc? Make sure that that pesky light-blindness doesn't make it to the New-Flesh (we can make him better, we have the technology...). Trying to re-engineer some Trolls into appropriate bodyguards? Better keep that Regeneration or you might as well scrap this one. Maybe a DC 15 + HD of the harvested creature for each ability to be retained and DC 10 + HD for each trait removed? Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think.




Legend-hungering (titan)-devourer

This is interesting and I like what it does but I think that the prerequisite is off. This is really an extension of Power-stealing aberrant-liege and should be treated as such. Also, the benefits of this Excellency are nice, though limited, enough that it does not have to be delayed to Legendary level. This does grant a bonus feat, but one that does little other than unlock more low-level options (most racial mythos are Exceptional or Fantastic) that have to be paid for seperately. Just change it to...

'Perquisite: Power-stealing aberrant-liege with either Legend-burnout ash harvester or Feast of mortal flesh Advanced manifestations.'

Specify the Advanced manifestation requirements to avoid someone legally purchasing this and being unable to use it.




Adapted (ability) evolution

Only thing I'd do here is add Wisdom to the mix. Tis standard to be able to upgrade the Mythos modifing ability score and its lack here is quite noticable.




Magic-manipulating fleshcrafting

The small bonus and extremely niche application make this very underwhelming. What if you gave a -2 to DC for all Graft/Creature-making rolls? Maybe change the name to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or something? Nothing show stopping but now it has enough general utility to actually be appealing.

As an afterthought, if you agree with me about changing this to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or somesuch, how about add an option that if this ability is taken by a Kreikiri who does not have Limb-shredding graft-taker (gasp!) then they gain the ability to harvest Graft Points as if they did. I know it's a bit a niche thing but I think it could be quite useful. Granting minions a level of Kreikiri to gather resources but lacking the ability to challenge their master seems to be a good option to provide a future Flesh Emperor.




All-knowing master of beasts

Interesting, useful, I quite like.




Conversion chambers

You have no idea how much I like this ability. With this single Excellency you usher in an industrial revolution of gooey war-beasts. You ensure that long after the Flesh Emperor is defeated/deposed/consumed the Flesh Empire will continue. That said, the wording needs a bit of a clean-up.

You need to change the prereq to Monster-Making Beast-Lord. The Kreikiri should know how to make creatures before he creates such a specialist creature. When giving the stats, just spell it out. Going through the long division of what features you were thinking about when stating up the chamber is an excercise in aggravation. For instance, the default Mouth feature provides a bite attack one size smaller than the creature it is on (small in this case, doing 1d4 damage) but the Chambers' does damage as a creature one size even smaller (tiny, doing 1d3) and has grab and swallow whole (again, on a tiny mouth). You then say that the Chamber is considered to be one size larger for the purposes of swallow whole (which normally allows swallowing of creatures one size smaller) without saying whether that is applied to the chamber itself or the mouth (a DM could easily, and reasonably, assume that medium creatures cannot fit through a tiny mouth). In the end, you have the player/DM scrambling through multiple books and homebrew to find info that should be presented in the stat block. And at the end of that search, the most logical interpretation of your wording is that the default Conversion Chambers can affect nothing larger than cats (not what I think you were going for).

Have something like...

'At the cost of 100 graft points as per the ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ mythos you may produce a ‘Conversion Chamber’, this is a structure that uses the statistics of a 4 HD medium sized aberration with no movement ability, a 10 in all physical stats, a 1 in charisma and wisdom, and the mindless special quality. The Chamber has a single bite attack dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage with the grab and swallow whole (d6 nonlethal untyped damage, unable to inflict any lethal damage, and stomach HP is equal to half the chambers) abilities and with a +15 Racial bonus to grappling. Additionally the creature has the powerful build special ability, grappling as a large creature and allowing its swallow whole ability to affect medium sized creatures.'

This is just a slight rewording of what you had but there is no longer any confusion about what can and cannot be done.



... or have an identical copy of the graft attached to them, should a sufficient number of graft points be available within the chamber to produce it. More Graft Points may be added to the Chamber by the Kreikiri (or anyone else) at any time to allow further graft production.

Add the bolded part or something like it. You need to state that this puppy can be refueled (not just imply it), and done so by the Kreikiri, his minnions, or others. Hmm, just thought of something. How about if a living creature is swallowed whole, but there's not enough Graft Points for the required graft, the Chamber will then vivisect an eligible creature as if it were a 1st level Kreikiri to aquire the needed Graft reserve. The limitation of living targets would parallel the initial limits on a starting Kreikiri, and the vivisection ensures both that a PCs first encounter with a hungry Chamber is not a fatal one, and to make sure that the Chamber is a somewhat inefficient source of Graft Points (corpses are easier to manage and provide more GP). Perhaps allow a DC 15 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) roll (because Aberration) to tell if the Chamber is 'hungry' or not.

This would provide all kinds of gaming goodness on both sides of the table. Not only having logistical options for the rising Flesh Emperor, but also for the sucessors of a once great Empire. Can you imagine dozens, if not hundreds, of living sacrifices to the ancient Conversion Chambers (perhaps under the guise of a rite of passage?) to empower a single Priest-King or proven warrior?

This is the kind of thing that I love about this class. Not only does it make a fascinating PC, but every second ability inspires a new bloody campaign.

Back to the crunch. The 24 hr implant time is equivalent to a Kreikiri taking 20 so that is fine, and the Fort save is an interesting balance point to a manual implantation. Nice job.



Should you possess ‘Mental-lords’ unity’ mythos you may place a single instinct within the chamber upon creation. Should you do so, the target gets an additional will save at a -4 penalty to not be afflicted with the instinct you selected. The target makes this second save after determining whether they got the graft. If they do not obtain the graft they do not need to make this save and do not gain the instinct.

Just remove this entirely. It no longer applies since the re-write of Mental-lords’ unity. If the Kreikiri wants to affect a target with Mental-lords’ unity then he can just add the feature to the graft. No need to complicate things.



For an additional 100 points the chamber may be huge sized (and swallowing up to huge sized targets)...

Add the bolded part for clarity. Also, any reason why you skipped large?



You may convert a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create into a chamber for +50% cost for the chamber. In such a case the creature must be at least one size larger than the chamber and the chamber may not be targeted separately from the creature.

The bolded part makes absolutely none of the sense. The Stomach feature creates an extradimensional space that has no relation whatsoever to the size of the host creature. I think I see where you're going here but this needs some heavy rewording. Maybe something like...

'You may add the abilities of a Conversion Chamber to a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create for +50% of the total cost of the chamber, Increasing the implantation DC by +10 as if it were a magic item. The Stomach feature must be large enough to contain a creature of the Chambers size and the size of the Mouth attached to this Stomach limits the size of creature that can access the Chamber (ie. the basic Stomach feature can fit a huge Conversion Chamber, accomodating up to 16 medium creatures so long as it was attached to a large mouth feature, or a small mouth if equipped with the Entryway augment to allow access for medium creatures). The Conversion Chamber/Stomach uses the hosts HP and abilities as per a normal graft (rather than the 4 HD of a standard Conversion Chamber) with the limitation that the +15 Racial bonus to grapple only applies within the affected Stomach.'

This is a little more wordy but it spells everything out and gives a concrete example, which I think is necessary. Considering the sheer cost of the chamber it should be treated like a magic item for graft DC purposes.




Building a better beast

Everything is good about this. The bonuses, the progression, the jump in utility. All good.




Fresh meat

Solid ability. A small bonus that will be used continually, leading to a larger impact.




No escape for the hunted

One of those abilities that looks out of place till you remember that the Kyniteros was a hunter before it was fractured. A good ability that ties the fluff together nicely while providing a unique capability. Good work.




Tongue of the savage

Another suprisingly useful ability that seems to further imply that the Kreikiri might be the Druids disgusting, bastard, step-brother or something. That amuses me greatly.




Structure shifting alterations

This is a great ability, the reason I wanted Disguise as a class skill, and on the short list of Excellencies to get early for any Kreikiri.




Unbound by tales of others

This is a fascinating and unique example of the Kreikiri's ability to transcend the limits of others. Though it is tied heavily to Eternal-legends-defeated supremacy returned and I'll probably come back to this when I discuss that Mythos in another post.




Weakness-sheering revivification

See above. Will get back to this.




Abominable Sewn-Flesh Displacement

This is both cool and useless at the same time. The base Limb-shredding graft-taker already lets you replicate any magic item with a graft. Not by making a magic item, but by making a graft that does the exact same thing. Right now, all this ability does is provide the ability to spend gold or Mythos points (not needed) to create a niche item (magic item grafts) apparently using a system that the Kreikiri doesn't usually have access to (standard magic item creation), all without benefiting from any other class abilities (any enhancements he has for grafting).

If you want something like this to work you need to incorporate it into the existing graft system. Perhaps say that you select one type of magical graft normally acessible through the Graft Flesh feat (Fiendish, Undead, Abloeth, etc.) without regard to racial prerequisites. When making grafts through Limb-shredding graft-taker that duplicate a selected magical graft (including any limitations, if any) then the Graft Point cost of this magic item component is halved. This is cumulative with any other enhancements/atlerations to the Kreikiri's graft making capabilities (such as Eldritch Living-Weapon).

This can help balance the overpriced nature of magical grafts, provide what you seem to be going for, and avoids introducing a new system (magic item creation) that is already covered by grafts.




Masterful body control

This is an ok ability, just seems a little weak. Maybe boost the save bonus to +3 or +4. This is a niche ability that will not apply all that often. Let it have an impact when it does.




Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

This is another ability that has some extremely complex implications and so is in desperate need of some clarification/elaboration.

You have a four stage system to turn grafts into inherited traits. It's relatively simple (which is good) and easy to resolve on paper. Due to the way it is presented though, it will become a bookkeeping nightmare in actual play. Why? Because players, that's why. No one will wait till F4 before re-augmentation. As soon as they reach F1 any grafts that did not carry forward will be reattached and/or rebred with a more complete specimen (there is no incest when it comes to hermaphroditic, force-grown, tentacled, warbeasts). By the time F4 is achieved for all the desired grafts you will have to set up a genealogy website to track all of the seperate F-strains.

Keep the mechanics, just simplify the application. Instead of having the F1-4 classifications apply to the breeding generations, have them apply to the individual grafts themselves. Tracking the changes becomes so much easier. And try changing the F- designations to something more flavourful/meaningful. How about something like Retained->Tumorous->Inherited->Natural. Something like that will provide a clear mental picture of the progress and so is much easier to keep track of. Wording on something like this can be a bitch, so let me see if I can suggest something...


'A Kreikiri can now allow the gifts of his craft to spread through the generations. When creating a graft the Kreikiri may add an free augmentation to make it a Legacy graft. When a creature to which you have attached a Legacy graft (including grafts from the graft flesh feat should you possess it) reproduces, its offspring each have a 50% chance of possessing an identical copy of the graft(s) of that parent (roll individually for each graft, and for both parents should both have grafts) that loses the Legacy augment and gains an augment called Retained. For each Retained graft the offspring receive a further d4 is rolled to determine when the grafts effects become available (1- from birth, 2-a week to a year after birth, 3- early-mid childhood, 4-upon puberty). Grafts available from birth can cause potential problems for the mother should her race produce live young. A Retained graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Retained augment and gaining Legacy) and attached to another creature as per normal.

Should a creature bearing a Retained graft then continue on to reproduce, each of their offspring in turn have a 50% chance of inheriting the parents Retained graft, and gain access to them at the same time as the parent (i.e they share the equivalent result from the d4 roll). Grafts inherited in this way lose the Retained augment and gain the Tumorous augment. A Tumorous graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Tumorous augment without a replacement augment) and attached to another creature as per normal. After having bonded to this degree with it`s host the graft is no longer capable of breeding through with another, or restarting the process should it be reattached.

Should the host of a Tumorous graft reproduce their children behave as above but have a 75% chance of inheriting Tumorous grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts should she herself possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Tumorous augment and gain the Inherited augment. An Inherited graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft, but cannot be attached to another creature. They can then be reconverted to Graft Points if the Kreikiri is capable of doing so (with the Meat Reprocessing manifestation for example) but are otherwise useless after being torn from their host.

If an Inherited graft is passed on to one more generation the offspring have a 100% chance of gaining the Inherited grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts even if she herself does not possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Inherited augment and gain the Natural augment. A Natural graft does not count against the graft limit and cannot be removed as a normal graft. The abilities of a Natural graft are now considered to be racial traits in all respects and no longer counts as a graft in any real way (ie. it can no longer be siphoned for Mythos Points by Power-stealing aberrant-liege and similar) and will always breed true in any further offspring. The host of a Natural graft is essentially the progenitor of a new strain of his former race.

A creature can have multiple grafts all at different levels of integration and each graft is tracked seperately.'

Spoilered because it's long. That covers just about every potential conflict that I can think of and still follows the basis of your original system. Let me know what you think.



Modified gestation

Fascinating ability but in desperate need of some clarification and elaboration.



The time reproduction takes for the young to be born/hatch/whatever is unaltered. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible grafts)

This has to be clarified and should be placed before listing options for change. The base rules for gestation need to be clearly stated before you start saying how they will be modified. Also, you seem to be using reproduction and gestation interchangably. Do not do this thing. In almost all cases you are refering to the gestation period of the young, nothing else. Use gestation exclusively. It avoids all confusion. This is the kind of ability where you want to remove all ambiguity. To that end try something like...

'The time gestation takes for the young to be born/hatched/whatever is standard for the mothers race. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible alterations due to Modified development, see below). Should gestation periods for a creature not be known, assume 9 months for a medium sized creature. Double this time for each size above medium, and halve it for each size below. For game purposes, assume that the mother cannot become pregnant again for a period of half the gestation time after birth.'

Now you have a baseline to modify, a baseline that covers unknowns as well. The change in gestation time based on size seems to hold up pretty well for the smaller things (cats, a tiny creature, have an actual gestation time of @63 days, which is pretty bang on), but tends to get long for the bigger stuff. Consider it a balance point if you want to breed dragons.



Live young

This is good as the default. Might want to add that this can be used to make alterations to the hosts natural reproduction process, making them marsupials, or tri-sexual parasitic breeding diads (don't look at me like that, you're the one who started this). The means could be whatever, so long as the end result is a live birth.



Laying eggs

This is one that needs some serious elaboration. How strong is the egg? This is something that will come up. How about 5 Hp and Hardness 2? Half Hp (round up) for each size below medium and double Hp for each size larger. An egg needs to be kept in a safe place and at a constant temperature to mature properly, thus limiting mobility. A trade-off is that egg-layers usually produce a large number of eggs at a time (chickens can squeeze one out a day, crocodiles usually drop 40-60 during mating season...) to ensure survival of the young. While that would be logistically insane to allow in the hands of a PC, how about saying that egg-layers require half normal recovery time before another egg can be laid (so 1/4 normal gestation time) and that recovery begins at the moment of laying, not hatching. This way the penalties of immobility and vulnerability are countered with much more rapid production.



Mitosis

This requires so much more info. This is not just making a clone of yourself (that's just asexual reproduction really) but instead making an individual into a multiple. Also, there would really be no 'parent', just more (and maybe smaller?) of them. Do all of the copies share the same memories/experience/levels up to the point of Mitosis? I think that they probably should. Does a PC get to control them all if they came from him? Nope. Pick one and the rest diverge. This is where any backstabbing/antisocial tndencies shown by the PC will come back to bite him.

Since instant maturation is a paid option under Modified development then default mitosis should probably split into children. Children with the memories/experience of adults. The act of reproduction would simultaneously be an act of rejuvenation. That is interesting.

This could also lead to a form of serialized immortality. Imagine a kingdom watching their Emperor/priest caste/royalty/what-have-you enter the Temple once a generation to ritually battle their dark half/sins/guilt to regain their youth, little knowing that it is a death duel between complete equals as only one is allowed to leave (getting flashbacks to Hugh Jackman in The Prestige here as well).

A balance here might be that recovery until another bout of mitosis can be initiated will take triple normal gestation time (possibly longer if the copies need to reach adulthood first). Another consideration is that the mitosis option will probably need the greatest investment in Modified development to be functionally useful in an actual game. Either way, this needs much more consideration than it has currently recieved. Let me know what you think.



• The creature may be made to reproduce asexually for 15 graft points (unless it reproduces using mitosis the creature must be biologically female). Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, either a minimum wait time of twice the gestation period.

Replace the bolded part with something like...

'Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, subject to the gestation and recovery times of their method.'

The asexual portion already has a graft cost. The gameplay value of the feature is negligible (telling a creature to breed with a mate, or to initiate asexual reproduction are functionally identical) and so should not have any penalties to recovery time.



• The time needed to reproduce may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but grant no discount) and does not stack with reducing the time needed for gestation. Any excess reduction may be spending towards the modified development quality.

This just needs to be expanded in some logical ways and have the stacking penalty removed. There is no benefit to both extending and reducing gestation time at once, so if a player wants to extend gestation 3 weeks at the cost of 9 Graft points, let them. How about something like...

'• The time needed to gestate may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but provide no points), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the penalty may be doubled (to 2 months) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any excess reduction may be spent towards the modified development quality.'

Similarly for the next one...

'• The time needed to reproduce may be reduced; this increases the cost of applying this quality by +10 for every week you reduce it by (smaller reductions may be added but grant no discount to the cost), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the benefit may be doubled (to 2 weeks) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum gestation/recovery time of 1 day).'

This is just a minor extension of your original balance but provides many more options.



Modified development

The costs and options for playing with the age categories seem good. Though this...


These alterations may never reduce an age category to shorter than five years for a creature of intelligence three or higher.

Should be removed and incorporated into the previous options. You already have an option for instant maturation so there really is no reason to have a minimum maturation time. Just make sure that below a certain point it has a cost. To that end...

'Reducing the lifespan reduces the cost of this quality by -5 for every two years you remove, which may be from any age category, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood). Smaller reductions may be made but do not provide any Graft points. For a creature of intelligence three or higher these reductions may never shorten their childhood to shorter than five years.

Altering their age categories costs five points for every year altered, which may be removed from one age category and added to any other. Any alterations that would result in a creature of intelligence three or higher reducing their childhood to shorter than five years have their cost doubled.

Any reduction below one year would then become an appropriate reduction measured in months. Any reduction below one month would then become an appropriate reduction measured in weeks. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum of 1 day). '

That should cover everything. Let me know what you think.



• The creature may stop ageing upon reaching adulthood for 25 points.

Just specify that the creature no longer accrues bonuses for aging either. It is implied, just spell it out so there is no confusion.

The option for insta-growth seems to be exactly where it needs to be. Clear, concise, and the cost seems about right.



• The creature possesses a larval stage...

Bloody hell, is this ever a great ability. Remember what I said about every second ability making me spew out a new campaign world? This is definitely one of those. So many possibilities that it makes me twitchy. With a little creativity you could make a creature that approaches the reproductive weirdness of a Xenomorph from Alien. I don't care who you are, that spells fun.

The only recomendation I have is to open up the options a little bit. Perhaps for double the cost (8 Graft points) you could have a seperate larval form apply to another age category, following the same restrictions as above. This would allow things like the Neogi (becoming grotesque breeders in old age) and other such fun.




whenever I try the math myself it always breaks down and I cant calculate it (I have one of those brains that just sort of turns of when math is involved). I think adding wording along the lines of 'recalculated with 2/3 their HD instead of 1/3 at level 15.' should sort out any confusion while preventing me form having to do any math that is likely to be incorrect and thus causing more confusion.

Just make sure that you add the example at level 15. Either 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level). Going with 10 attacks using just 2/3 levels is probably a bit more balanced, but in that case you really need to add the example because it may not be obvious that the change in math was intended. When seeing you go from X + [A Fraction] to just [Some Other Fraction] there can be confusion as to whether the missing 'X +' was a typo or not. The example removes all of that confusion.



I like your ideas here, still on the fence of the final paragraph's suggestions.

As far as the mindless death-beast ideas, think of it as a safeguard against abuse. Int drain only occurs when they are kept as minions (essentially) so if this were used to quickly graft the Royal Kingsguard or somesuch (where the resulting minions belong to another) then this is just a particularly brutal form of quick augmentation. The Kingsguuard can be used to arrest the Kreikiri at a later date or whatever. This sort of thing is not a problem.

The problem occurs when the Kreikiri gains access to a large number of bodies (given temporary control of a section of the King's army, finds a secluded villiage, left in charge of POWs after a large battle, etc.). While maintaining a creatures' inteligence at the cost of 150 Mythos points per point does not sound like a lot (and indeed it isn't) it is a limiter on what can be controlled.

Think about getting ahold of just 500 soldiers. Even just by hiring mercenaries this is quite achievable. Insuring loyalty through Mental-lords’ unity and maintaining Intelligence 3 so they can be directed with language would cost 225,000 Mythos points. That's a harsh sum. Want to economize? Specifically directing their actions with Mental-lords’ unity (added either with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry or with later grafts) would allow a minimum intelligence of 1 to be sufficient for most purposes and that would cost 75,000 Mythos points. Still a large amount but might be worth it in some circumstances. Now, what is the difference between Int 1 and a docile Int '-' mindless creature? Behaviour-wise the mindless one would be easier to control, wouldn't wander around, and wouldn't get distracted. Ability-wise the mindless trait also provides immunity to all mind-affecting effects. These are some pretty large advantages over Int 1. How much do these advantages cost? Nothing. The cost of doing this to 500 mercenaries? Nothing. 1,000? Nothing. 10,000? Nothing.

A Kreikiri can convert 5,000+ creatures in a 10 hour period (and that's giving generous lunch/stretching breaks) using Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry. It would take about a week to lobotomize an average person (faster for less intelligent subjects or if the Kreikiri was also using another form of Int drain to accelerate the process) then you have instinct driven flesh-bots. Docile mindlessness results in cheap, nigh-infinite minion control. This is all of the bad.

If, on the other hand, mindlessness results in murder-fueled-hate-machines who attack any animate object that isn't a product of Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, unless following some very specific instincts or directly being handled/pushed by their 'master', then things become much more interesting. Can they be used as a disciplined army? Nope, they'll break ranks and attempt to murderize anything that moves. Can they be an occupying force? Nope, they'll turn on the population as soon as you look away. Can they take watch while you sleep? Nope, as soon as someone has an eye-twitch from REM sleep they get a face full of death-beast. Are they useless? Nope. Being pursued by an army because you are a walking abomination? Move fast, get a few days lead on them and find yourself a villiage. Start the conversion/lobotomy process. By the time the army gets there you can open the holding pit and release your horde of Reavers (ala Firefly) and/or Necromorphs with a Push to 'get Them!'. Chaos/anihilation ensues. Escape/vengence is assured. Surviving Reavers/Necromorphs are now a plague upon the country-side, perhaps even being a threat to their creator at some inconvenient later date. Such fun!

You still get to horribly disrupt the game to get out of desperate situations but now the DM has interesting story hooks and beasties to use against you, instead of an instant player controlled army that he has to figure out how to counter.

From a gameplay perspective the Mindless-Murder-Beast of interesting consequence option has far more advantages over the Mindless-Docile-Minion of cheap freeness.

Just my attempt to push you off that fence. Thoughts?



iv also changed 'Flesh-altering monstrosity masterpiece'...

Cool. It's been a while since I looked at the ability so I'll essentially be coming at it fresh anyway. The Legendary and Exalted Mythos are next on my list.

ThreadNecro5
2015-04-28, 04:32 PM
On to the Excellencies.

This is all kinds of interesting. Love what it does and the options for taking it multiple times. Only two things need to be done. First, replace 'took' with 'taken' in the first two sentences of the third paragraph. Second, state whether racial stat penalties are considered to be racial weakneses. I think that you should probably let them be removed, either with the initial purchase or with taking it a second time. Whatever you decide, just spell it out.

not sure weather to class racial statistic penalties as a weakness, I'll have a look at some creatures with level adjustment before I make a choice here (as a lot of the monsters have more penalties than average in some scores the potentially significant increase they may receive may be unbalancing, at least to do so all at once. as an idea what to you think about each purchase of the Excellency allow one -2 of racial penalties to be removed.


As an afterthought, how about adding some synergy with Man-is-monster restoration? Perhaps if the Kreikiri has this Excellency when harvesting a creature with Man-is-monster restoration he has the option to remove/retain any racial traits that survive/are lost the initial purge with an appropriate Heal check. Remaking a Drow or Orc? Make sure that that pesky light-blindness doesn't make it to the New-Flesh (we can make him better, we have the technology...). Trying to re-engineer some Trolls into appropriate bodyguards? Better keep that Regeneration or you might as well scrap this one. Maybe a DC 15 + HD of the harvested creature for each ability to be retained and DC 10 + HD for each trait removed? Just some thoughts. Tell me what you think.

I like the synergy idea.


This is interesting and I like what it does but I think that the prerequisite is off. This is really an extension of Power-stealing aberrant-liege and should be treated as such. Also, the benefits of this Excellency are nice, though limited, enough that it does not have to be delayed to Legendary level. This does grant a bonus feat, but one that does little other than unlock more low-level options (most racial mythos are Exceptional or Fantastic) that have to be paid for seperately. Just change it to...

'Perquisite: Power-stealing aberrant-liege with either Legend-burnout ash harvester or Feast of mortal flesh Advanced manifestations.'

Specify the Advanced manifestation requirements to avoid someone legally purchasing this and being unable to use it.

ok, make the change.


Only thing I'd do here is add Wisdom to the mix. Tis standard to be able to upgrade the Mythos modifing ability score and its lack here is quite noticable.

will add Wisdom. never noticed that in the other classes.


The small bonus and extremely niche application make this very underwhelming. What if you gave a -2 to DC for all Graft/Creature-making rolls? Maybe change the name to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or something? Nothing show stopping but now it has enough general utility to actually be appealing.

As an afterthought, if you agree with me about changing this to Fleshcrafting Prodigy or somesuch, how about add an option that if this ability is taken by a Kreikiri who does not have Limb-shredding graft-taker (gasp!) then they gain the ability to harvest Graft Points as if they did. I know it's a bit a niche thing but I think it could be quite useful. Granting minions a level of Kreikiri to gather resources but lacking the ability to challenge their master seems to be a good option to provide a future Flesh Emperor.

I like the suggestion for change, I never considered the idea of passing around graft points. What if I caused the excellency to grant an additional augment augment for created creatures that allows them to harvest graft points, while also adding wording to Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker that allows creatures capable of harvesting graft points to give them to one another?

on an unrelated note, I am now wanting to add a graft point based economy run by a Nation of Kreikiri' to my home game.


You have no idea how much I like this ability. With this single Excellency you usher in an industrial revolution of gooey war-beasts. You ensure that long after the Flesh Emperor is defeated/deposed/consumed the Flesh Empire will continue. That said, the wording needs a bit of a clean-up.

You need to change the prereq to Monster-Making Beast-Lord. The Kreikiri should know how to make creatures before he creates such a specialist creature. When giving the stats, just spell it out. Going through the long division of what features you were thinking about when stating up the chamber is an excercise in aggravation. For instance, the default Mouth feature provides a bite attack one size smaller than the creature it is on (small in this case, doing 1d4 damage) but the Chambers' does damage as a creature one size even smaller (tiny, doing 1d3) and has grab and swallow whole (again, on a tiny mouth). You then say that the Chamber is considered to be one size larger for the purposes of swallow whole (which normally allows swallowing of creatures one size smaller) without saying whether that is applied to the chamber itself or the mouth (a DM could easily, and reasonably, assume that medium creatures cannot fit through a tiny mouth). In the end, you have the player/DM scrambling through multiple books and homebrew to find info that should be presented in the stat block. And at the end of that search, the most logical interpretation of your wording is that the default Conversion Chambers can affect nothing larger than cats (not what I think you were going for).

Have something like...

'At the cost of 100 graft points as per the ‘Monster-Making Beast-Lord’ mythos you may produce a ‘Conversion Chamber’, this is a structure that uses the statistics of a 4 HD medium sized aberration with no movement ability, a 10 in all physical stats, a 1 in charisma and wisdom, and the mindless special quality. The Chamber has a single bite attack dealing 1d4 nonlethal damage with the grab and swallow whole (d6 nonlethal untyped damage, unable to inflict any lethal damage, and stomach HP is equal to half the chambers) abilities and with a +15 Racial bonus to grappling. Additionally the creature has the powerful build special ability, grappling as a large creature and allowing its swallow whole ability to affect medium sized creatures.'

This is just a slight rewording of what you had but there is no longer any confusion about what can and cannot be done.

yes that wording is better than my currant one and I will also provide a pre-written stat block for a chamber during my edit to make things easier at the table.


Add the bolded part or something like it. You need to state that this puppy can be refueled (not just imply it), and done so by the Kreikiri, his minnions, or others. Hmm, just thought of something. How about if a living creature is swallowed whole, but there's not enough Graft Points for the required graft, the Chamber will then vivisect an eligible creature as if it were a 1st level Kreikiri to aquire the needed Graft reserve. The limitation of living targets would parallel the initial limits on a starting Kreikiri, and the vivisection ensures both that a PCs first encounter with a hungry Chamber is not a fatal one, and to make sure that the Chamber is a somewhat inefficient source of Graft Points (corpses are easier to manage and provide more GP). Perhaps allow a DC 15 Knowledge (Dungeoneering) roll (because Aberration) to tell if the Chamber is 'hungry' or not.

This would provide all kinds of gaming goodness on both sides of the table. Not only having logistical options for the rising Flesh Emperor, but also for the sucessors of a once great Empire. Can you imagine dozens, if not hundreds, of living sacrifices to the ancient Conversion Chambers (perhaps under the guise of a rite of passage?) to empower a single Priest-King or proven warrior?

am liking the above ideas, will ad them in.


Just remove this entirely. It no longer applies since the re-write of Mental-lords’ unity. If the Kreikiri wants to affect a target with Mental-lords’ unity then he can just add the feature to the graft. No need to complicate things.

will do that.


Add the bolded part for clarity. Also, any reason why you skipped large?

the reason large seems to be skipped was that the chambers were originally going to be large sized and the wording here got left in.


The bolded part makes absolutely none of the sense. The Stomach feature creates an extradimensional space that has no relation whatsoever to the size of the host creature. I think I see where you're going here but this needs some heavy rewording. Maybe something like...

'You may add the abilities of a Conversion Chamber to a stomach feature on a creature or graft that you create for +50% of the total cost of the chamber, Increasing the implantation DC by +10 as if it were a magic item. The Stomach feature must be large enough to contain a creature of the Chambers size and the size of the Mouth attached to this Stomach limits the size of creature that can access the Chamber (ie. the basic Stomach feature can fit a huge Conversion Chamber, accomodating up to 16 medium creatures so long as it was attached to a large mouth feature, or a small mouth if equipped with the Entryway augment to allow access for medium creatures). The Conversion Chamber/Stomach uses the hosts HP and abilities as per a normal graft (rather than the 4 HD of a standard Conversion Chamber) with the limitation that the +15 Racial bonus to grapple only applies within the affected Stomach.'

This is a little more wordy but it spells everything out and gives a concrete example, which I think is necessary. Considering the sheer cost of the chamber it should be treated like a magic item for graft DC purposes.

will use the wording here, says what I want the ability to do in a way that makes sense. I really must thank you for all the example wordings you give really helping out editing the class, so thanks.


This is both cool and useless at the same time. The base Limb-shredding graft-taker already lets you replicate any magic item with a graft. Not by making a magic item, but by making a graft that does the exact same thing. Right now, all this ability does is provide the ability to spend gold or Mythos points (not needed) to create a niche item (magic item grafts) apparently using a system that the Kreikiri doesn't usually have access to (standard magic item creation), all without benefiting from any other class abilities (any enhancements he has for grafting).

If you want something like this to work you need to incorporate it into the existing graft system. Perhaps say that you select one type of magical graft normally acessible through the Graft Flesh feat (Fiendish, Undead, Abloeth, etc.) without regard to racial prerequisites. When making grafts through Limb-shredding graft-taker that duplicate a selected magical graft (including any limitations, if any) then the Graft Point cost of this magic item component is halved. This is cumulative with any other enhancements/atlerations to the Kreikiri's graft making capabilities (such as Eldritch Living-Weapon).

This can help balance the overpriced nature of magical grafts, provide what you seem to be going for, and avoids introducing a new system (magic item creation) that is already covered by grafts.

will go for this idea. the original idea behind this excellency was simply to give the class some way to access the prior-existing system for the magical grafts (when I wrote this I was running out of ideas).


This is an ok ability, just seems a little weak. Maybe boost the save bonus to +3 or +4. This is a niche ability that will not apply all that often. Let it have an impact when it does.

aye, will do so.




This is another ability that has some extremely complex implications and so is in desperate need of some clarification/elaboration.

You have a four stage system to turn grafts into inherited traits. It's relatively simple (which is good) and easy to resolve on paper. Due to the way it is presented though, it will become a bookkeeping nightmare in actual play. Why? Because players, that's why. No one will wait till F4 before re-augmentation. As soon as they reach F1 any grafts that did not carry forward will be reattached and/or rebred with a more complete specimen (there is no incest when it comes to hermaphroditic, force-grown, tentacled, warbeasts). By the time F4 is achieved for all the desired grafts you will have to set up a genealogy website to track all of the seperate F-strains.

Keep the mechanics, just simplify the application. Instead of having the F1-4 classifications apply to the breeding generations, have them apply to the individual grafts themselves. Tracking the changes becomes so much easier. And try changing the F- designations to something more flavourful/meaningful. How about something like Retained->Tumorous->Inherited->Natural. Something like that will provide a clear mental picture of the progress and so is much easier to keep track of. Wording on something like this can be a bitch, so let me see if I can suggest something...


'A Kreikiri can now allow the gifts of his craft to spread through the generations. When creating a graft the Kreikiri may add an free augmentation to make it a Legacy graft. When a creature to which you have attached a Legacy graft (including grafts from the graft flesh feat should you possess it) reproduces, its offspring each have a 50% chance of possessing an identical copy of the graft(s) of that parent (roll individually for each graft, and for both parents should both have grafts) that loses the Legacy augment and gains an augment called Retained. For each Retained graft the offspring receive a further d4 is rolled to determine when the grafts effects become available (1- from birth, 2-a week to a year after birth, 3- early-mid childhood, 4-upon puberty). Grafts available from birth can cause potential problems for the mother should her race produce live young. A Retained graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Retained augment and gaining Legacy) and attached to another creature as per normal.

Should a creature bearing a Retained graft then continue on to reproduce, each of their offspring in turn have a 50% chance of inheriting the parents Retained graft, and gain access to them at the same time as the parent (i.e they share the equivalent result from the d4 roll). Grafts inherited in this way lose the Retained augment and gain the Tumorous augment. A Tumorous graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft (removing the Tumorous augment without a replacement augment) and attached to another creature as per normal. After having bonded to this degree with it`s host the graft is no longer capable of breeding through with another, or restarting the process should it be reattached.

Should the host of a Tumorous graft reproduce their children behave as above but have a 75% chance of inheriting Tumorous grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts should she herself possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Tumorous augment and gain the Inherited augment. An Inherited graft still counts against the graft limit (and can exceed it), can be removed as a normal graft, but cannot be attached to another creature. They can then be reconverted to Graft Points if the Kreikiri is capable of doing so (with the Meat Reprocessing manifestation for example) but are otherwise useless after being torn from their host.

If an Inherited graft is passed on to one more generation the offspring have a 100% chance of gaining the Inherited grafts from the parent(s) and the mother cannot be harmed by the offspring’s grafts even if she herself does not possess grafts with the same effect(s). Grafts gained in this way lose the Inherited augment and gain the Natural augment. A Natural graft does not count against the graft limit and cannot be removed as a normal graft. The abilities of a Natural graft are now considered to be racial traits in all respects and no longer counts as a graft in any real way (ie. it can no longer be siphoned for Mythos Points by Power-stealing aberrant-liege and similar) and will always breed true in any further offspring. The host of a Natural graft is essentially the progenitor of a new strain of his former race.

A creature can have multiple grafts all at different levels of integration and each graft is tracked seperately.'

Spoilered because it's long. That covers just about every potential conflict that I can think of and still follows the basis of your original system. Let me know what you think.

ok, will use the adjusted wording. not entirely happy with the concept of 'farming grafts' but I can see the logic in doing so and it is an interesting ability to work with.


Fascinating ability but in desperate need of some clarification and elaboration.

This has to be clarified and should be placed before listing options for change. The base rules for gestation need to be clearly stated before you start saying how they will be modified. Also, you seem to be using reproduction and gestation interchangably. Do not do this thing. In almost all cases you are refering to the gestation period of the young, nothing else. Use gestation exclusively. It avoids all confusion. This is the kind of ability where you want to remove all ambiguity. To that end try something like...

'The time gestation takes for the young to be born/hatched/whatever is standard for the mothers race. Once this time has occurred the young are born and develop as a normal infant of their race (besides possible alterations due to Modified development, see below). Should gestation periods for a creature not be known, assume 9 months for a medium sized creature. Double this time for each size above medium, and halve it for each size below. For game purposes, assume that the mother cannot become pregnant again for a period of half the gestation time after birth.'

Now you have a baseline to modify, a baseline that covers unknowns as well. The change in gestation time based on size seems to hold up pretty well for the smaller things (cats, a tiny creature, have an actual gestation time of @63 days, which is pretty bang on), but tends to get long for the bigger stuff. Consider it a balance point if you want to breed dragons.

I intended exactly how long gestation took to be the sort of thing the GM would decide. the inclusion of a default is a good idea however. I will also correct the terminology.


This is good as the default. Might want to add that this can be used to make alterations to the hosts natural reproduction process, making them marsupials, or tri-sexual parasitic breeding diads (don't look at me like that, you're the one who started this). The means could be whatever, so long as the end result is a live birth.

will add the suggested ability.


This is one that needs some serious elaboration. How strong is the egg? This is something that will come up. How about 5 Hp and Hardness 2? Half Hp (round up) for each size below medium and double Hp for each size larger. An egg needs to be kept in a safe place and at a constant temperature to mature properly, thus limiting mobility. A trade-off is that egg-layers usually produce a large number of eggs at a time (chickens can squeeze one out a day, crocodiles usually drop 40-60 during mating season...) to ensure survival of the young. While that would be logistically insane to allow in the hands of a PC, how about saying that egg-layers require half normal recovery time before another egg can be laid (so 1/4 normal gestation time) and that recovery begins at the moment of laying, not hatching. This way the penalties of immobility and vulnerability are countered with much more rapid production.

will make the added suggestions. the HP and harness seem about right and I can add the option to increase the hp and hardness.


This requires so much more info. This is not just making a clone of yourself (that's just asexual reproduction really) but instead making an individual into a multiple. Also, there would really be no 'parent', just more (and maybe smaller?) of them. Do all of the copies share the same memories/experience/levels up to the point of Mitosis? I think that they probably should. Does a PC get to control them all if they came from him? Nope. Pick one and the rest diverge. This is where any backstabbing/antisocial tndencies shown by the PC will come back to bite him.

Since instant maturation is a paid option under Modified development then default mitosis should probably split into children. Children with the memories/experience of adults. The act of reproduction would simultaneously be an act of rejuvenation. That is interesting.

This could also lead to a form of serialized immortality. Imagine a kingdom watching their Emperor/priest caste/royalty/what-have-you enter the Temple once a generation to ritually battle their dark half/sins/guilt to regain their youth, little knowing that it is a death duel between complete equals as only one is allowed to leave (getting flashbacks to Hugh Jackman in The Prestige here as well).

A balance here might be that recovery until another bout of mitosis can be initiated will take triple normal gestation time (possibly longer if the copies need to reach adulthood first). Another consideration is that the mitosis option will probably need the greatest investment in Modified development to be functionally useful in an actual game. Either way, this needs much more consideration than it has currently recieved. Let me know what you think.

I will clarify the details of this. will also point out that the original creature is effectively destroyed and several copies are made (1d4+1, or a number based on a graft point cost?). will probably also make a point in noting that, should the original creature be a PC, one of the new creatures retains sufficient Emery to grant it the originals class levels (and functions as the replacement character).



Replace the bolded part with something like...

'Such creatures may reproduce whenever they chose, subject to the gestation and recovery times of their method.'

The asexual portion already has a graft cost. The gameplay value of the feature is negligible (telling a creature to breed with a mate, or to initiate asexual reproduction are functionally identical) and so should not have any penalties to recovery time.

will add the wording


This just needs to be expanded in some logical ways and have the stacking penalty removed. There is no benefit to both extending and reducing gestation time at once, so if a player wants to extend gestation 3 weeks at the cost of 9 Graft points, let them. How about something like...

'• The time needed to gestate may be lengthened; this reduces the cost of applying this quality by -1 for every additional month added (shorter increases may be added but provide no points), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the penalty may be doubled (to 2 months) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any excess reduction may be spent towards the modified development quality.'

Similarly for the next one...

'• The time needed to reproduce may be reduced; this increases the cost of applying this quality by +10 for every week you reduce it by (smaller reductions may be added but grant no discount to the cost), affecting recovery time as per above. Optionally, for the same cost, the benefit may be doubled (to 2 weeks) and applied to either gestation or recovery time, without affecting the other. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum gestation/recovery time of 1 day).'

This is just a minor extension of your original balance but provides many more options.

will add in your wording.


The costs and options for playing with the age categories seem good. Though this...

Should be removed and incorporated into the previous options. You already have an option for instant maturation so there really is no reason to have a minimum maturation time. Just make sure that below a certain point it has a cost. To that end...

'Reducing the lifespan reduces the cost of this quality by -5 for every two years you remove, which may be from any age category, including their childhood (the time anywhere below their races adulthood). Smaller reductions may be made but do not provide any Graft points. For a creature of intelligence three or higher these reductions may never shorten their childhood to shorter than five years.

Altering their age categories costs five points for every year altered, which may be removed from one age category and added to any other. Any alterations that would result in a creature of intelligence three or higher reducing their childhood to shorter than five years have their cost doubled.

Any reduction below one year would then become an appropriate reduction measured in months. Any reduction below one month would then become an appropriate reduction measured in weeks. Any reduction below one week would then become an appropriate reduction measured in days (to a minimum of 1 day). '

That should cover everything. Let me know what you think.

I like the flexibility that is offered by this.


Just specify that the creature no longer accrues bonuses for aging either. It is implied, just spell it out so there is no confusion.

will point that out.


Bloody hell, is this ever a great ability. Remember what I said about every second ability making me spew out a new campaign world? This is definitely one of those. So many possibilities that it makes me twitchy. With a little creativity you could make a creature that approaches the reproductive weirdness of a Xenomorph from Alien. I don't care who you are, that spells fun.

The only recomendation I have is to open up the options a little bit. Perhaps for double the cost (8 Graft points) you could have a seperate larval form apply to another age category, following the same restrictions as above. This would allow things like the Neogi (becoming grotesque breeders in old age) and other such fun.
[/SPOILER]

nice idea, did not consider allowing additional life cycle stages. will add.


Just make sure that you add the example at level 15. Either 12 attacks at level 15 (2+2/3 per level) or 10 attacks at level 15 (2/3 per level). Going with 10 attacks using just 2/3 levels is probably a bit more balanced, but in that case you really need to add the example because it may not be obvious that the change in math was intended. When seeing you go from X + [A Fraction] to just [Some Other Fraction] there can be confusion as to whether the missing 'X +' was a typo or not. The example removes all of that confusion.

clarified, but open to removing the '2+' part and leaving it just 2/3.

I am also using your ideas with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, they've inspired a mythos for the epic level prestige class.

Quarian Rex
2015-04-30, 04:24 PM
not sure weather to class racial statistic penalties as a weakness, I'll have a look at some creatures with level adjustment before I make a choice here (as a lot of the monsters have more penalties than average in some scores the potentially significant increase they may receive may be unbalancing, at least to do so all at once. as an idea what to you think about each purchase of the Excellency allow one -2 of racial penalties to be removed.

I understand the concern here, but I would counter that Excellencies themselves are not cheap (additional purchases become more and more expensive with each purchase) so getting rid of a -2 penalty per purchase seems too minor. How about getting rid of all the penalties associated with a single attribute per purchase? That way a character of questionable ancestry will still need multiple purchases to account for racial/template deficits but can free up key attributes (like Wisdom on a Kreikiri) without massive investment.




I like the suggestion for change, I never considered the idea of passing around graft points. What if I caused the excellency to grant an additional augment augment for created creatures that allows them to harvest graft points, while also adding wording to Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker that allows creatures capable of harvesting graft points to give them to one another?

The note on Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker is a great idea (Graft points are described as meat and viscera anyway) but I have reservations about the augment. Harvesting is the keystone of the Kreikiri, do not lessen that. Currently, you already have an augment that allows harvesting, Transient Skill adding a level of Kreikiri. It's expensive but it works. It also has the associated danger of a creature gaining more levels and becoming a possible rival. That is interesting and seems to fit the theme of the class. Having a cheaper alternative to add to a creature, allowing it to harvest the appropriate bits of flesh from a target without knowing what to do with it 'just because' seems to go against the grain. If you make the addition to Fleshcrafting Prodigy (or whatever name you might go with) then you have a new specialized role within the Flesh Economy. This also allows you to have an actual economy. If harvesting is cheap, then everyone would be able to do it and that is essentially allowing people to print their own money if you ever wanted to do something like...


I am now wanting to add a graft point based economy run by a Nation of Kreikiri' to my home game.

Just some thoughts. You already have the option, and don't really gain anything by providing a cheaper alternative. Also, care to share any details about the Kreikiri nation? It would be fascinating to see how you have it set up and the implications of state sponsored fleshcrafting.




yes that wording is better than my currant one and I will also provide a pre-written stat block for a chamber during my edit to make things easier at the table.

You probably don't need a full stat block so long as things are spelled out clearly. Stat-wise it is an extremely simple organism and may not be worth the time to format to look right on the forums.




will use the wording here, says what I want the ability to do in a way that makes sense. I really must thank you for all the example wordings you give really helping out editing the class, so thanks.

Not a problem. If I point out an issue with something I usually try to offer a solution if I can see one. That, and when I write I often have a hard time with revisions. It looked good the first time so it can be difficult trying to shoehorn in a correcton. Hell, I've given up on projects because I couldn't figure out the phrasing for a needed change. If I can reshuffle what you have already said to save you some similar brain pain then I am happy to oblige.




ok, will use the adjusted wording. not entirely happy with the concept of 'farming grafts' but I can see the logic in doing so and it is an interesting ability to work with.

I understand your concern and share it, which is why I put in the increasing limitations for reharvesting. What if you increased the opportunity cost? By that I mean lower the chance to breed from Legacy->Retained to 30%. That way it's a much harder choice. Harvest for use elsewhere or allow further breeding for a more successful harvest of Tumorous grafts? That would also give a nicer progression of breeding success with integration (30% -> 50% -> 75% ->100%). What think?




will make the added suggestions. the HP and harness seem about right and I can add the option to increase the hp and hardness.

I might vote against the increased Hp/Hardness options. I think that the relative fragility is an interesting balance point. If the player really wants tougher eggs, then he can breed bigger monsters.




I will clarify the details of this. will also point out that the original creature is effectively destroyed and several copies are made (1d4+1, or a number based on a graft point cost?). will probably also make a point in noting that, should the original creature be a PC, one of the new creatures retains sufficient Emery to grant it the originals class levels (and functions as the replacement character).

If that's the direction you are looking I think that this could be a missed opportunity. Mitosis type things are something you really don't see in the game (it's rare even for oozes) and applying it to a sapient creature opens up all kinds of fun questions. This really should be a more unique option, it just doesn't have to be a particularly great option.

I really like the idea of them being copies, not just offspring. That leads to retaining memories/levels. This also leads to chaos since no DM wants a player to re-enact Agent Smith from the third Matrix movie. How about when the character divides it results in two identical copies of the character but each suffers two levels/HD of level loss that cannot be restored by any means (other than normal Xp gain of course). This way you have all the fun of instant shared-memory twins, and questioning what it truly means to be an individual, but facing severe diminishing returns should a character decide to populate a country with himself.

You also need to figure out what to do with the various biological resources. Mythos points chould be split evenly, with odd amounts going to the PC. Graft points are technically actual gooey bits and so would be dealt with like any other posession. Grafts, though, need special attention. Baseline grafts should be assigned randomly to either creature. The Legacy and integrated grafts have to be treated differently though. The Retained through to Natural grafts were all something the creature was born with and so should be grown on each copy creature, but still have a chance of further integration. Legacy grafts would be like baseline grafts in that they are not automatically kept, but still provide a chance for integration.

What would this look like in play? Lets have a 13th level character named Robert get a Mitosis graft. Robert currently has 3 grafts, a normal graft, a Legacy graft, and a Retained graft. After coming to terms with becoming asexual, Robert decides to initiate Mitosis. After the gestation period (9 months since it wasn't modified, and during which he put on a few pounds but not much) he enacts a scene straight out of a Cronenberg movie. In his place are two teenage versions of himself covered in gore (teenage because I can't see a grown, viable, organism splitting into pre-mature, non-viable, organisms). We will call them Bob and Bobby, and both are 11th level and retain all of their prior memories and experiences. The normal graft can only go to one so Bob randomly gets it. The Legacy graft gives both a chance to inherit it (30% chance for each of them), going to whoever does not inherit, or rolled randomly as a normal graft if neither inherit. In this case, Bobby inherited a Retained copy but Bob did not, so the Legacy graft automatically goes to Bob. Lastly, the Retained graft is checked for inheritance on both (50% chance). In this case both failed the roll (so neither gets a Tumorous version) but both keep the retained versions of the graft. They can't initiate another Mitosis for 15 years (until they reach adulthood since their development was not modified), and even if they had instant maturation they would still need to wait 27 months due to recovery time.

The end result is that Mitosis would be extremely efficient for graft integration but have a horrible, unavoidable, cumulative cost (level loss) on the affected character. This is a unique opportunity and I think it is very capable of being balanced. What do you think?

A though about your mentioning the 1d4+1 copies and such. Think hard about allowing twins/litters and that sort of thing. That will be heavily abused. It is a significant force multiplier when breeding a new army. During early drafts of my PEACH for Modified Gestation I was going to recomend an option to allow multiple births but no matter how I worked it I came back to the conclusion that I (or someone like me) would use that option to break the game.




clarified, but open to removing the '2+' part and leaving it just 2/3.

Much as I hate to nerf things, I think goinf from 6->10 natural attacks is easier to deal with balance-wise than 6->12. Consider that a vote for the removal od the '2+' at level 15.




I am also using your ideas with Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry, they've inspired a mythos for the epic level prestige class.
Perstige class for the Kreikiri (epic or otherwise)? Me so very excited.

Yasahiro
2015-04-30, 06:31 PM
Here are some comments from happy buyers.

I, being a fun guy, used the Graft and Monster-creating Mythos, turning them into a feat for a character in my campaign. Of course, my DM is keeping me busy so I don't use it much... Though it could also be because it IS level 1. It is nice to play as Ozodrin doctor... kek.

I have slightly changed the rules of it but the main idea remains the same, except it requires having access to the features or studying the organs, limbs and creature Types and subtypes.

Yes, it will shape up to quite a high power game later on, but it is only because this ability... IS SO FUN! I would have played Keikiri itself... But I don't want to force the whole might of Mythos class on my unprepared DM, it would make him go crazy.

I must thank you plenty for creating this class, it's idea and its mythos.

ThreadNecro5
2015-04-30, 06:52 PM
I understand the concern here, but I would counter that Excellencies themselves are not cheap (additional purchases become more and more expensive with each purchase) so getting rid of a -2 penalty per purchase seems too minor. How about getting rid of all the penalties associated with a single attribute per purchase? That way a character of questionable ancestry will still need multiple purchases to account for racial/template deficits but can free up key attributes (like Wisdom on a Kreikiri) without massive investment.

ok, the removing penalties by source is a good idea that fixes my worries about the idea, so will use that.


The note on Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker is a great idea (Graft points are described as meat and viscera anyway) but I have reservations about the augment. Harvesting is the keystone of the Kreikiri, do not lessen that. Currently, you already have an augment that allows harvesting, Transient Skill adding a level of Kreikiri. It's expensive but it works. It also has the associated danger of a creature gaining more levels and becoming a possible rival. That is interesting and seems to fit the theme of the class. Having a cheaper alternative to add to a creature, allowing it to harvest the appropriate bits of flesh from a target without knowing what to do with it 'just because' seems to go against the grain. If you make the addition to Fleshcrafting Prodigy (or whatever name you might go with) then you have a new specialized role within the Flesh Economy. This also allows you to have an actual economy. If harvesting is cheap, then everyone would be able to do it and that is essentially allowing people to print their own money if you ever wanted to do something like...

will include your idea of adding the ability to harvest points to the excellency.


Also, care to share any details about the Kreikiri nation? It would be fascinating to see how you have it set up and the implications of state sponsored fleshcrafting.

i've just thought of some basic details on how to add it to the campaign and some degree of structure. I will put some of the mental notes and ideas I have in a spoiler box below.


campaign details: will be using in my solo pathfinder campaign with my nephew, playing an orc fighter/ranger gusalt (or however you spell it) who has the highest body count of a LV2 non-caster you've ever seen, and is one murder away from becoming CE.

planning to set it underground (for campaign simplicity as that's where my player(s) are. will mainly be an immense cavern system containing about four city's (and maybe a few towns). one city will be beside an underground lake.

main population will be mongrelmen (or beings who might as well be) with a significant number of inherited grafts, but will have a wide number of creatures, created and natural (I like the variety it will allow). in a society with the number of weird creatures it would support race, as well as appearance, deformity and other such body issues would be a non-issue.

each city is lead by a Kreikiri of about 10-15th level, and the main 'capital' city is a Kreikiri of 19th level (perhaps the original founder of the nation who created the other leaders).

may include some conflict with stuff from the abyss as I currently have the player facing two rival demon lord cults.

a lucrative business could likely be found in hunting creatures for the Kreikiri' to convert into graft points

in terms of life for the commoners it would likely be that cosmetic grafting would be common (treated like ear piercings, or perhaps even as mundane as hair dye), as well as more practical grafting being used my most members of society. working would be mandatory (as someone who is not otherwise useful could in theory find themselves used as spare parts), with people sorted into what jobs they would be good at (and potently modified as necessary/desired)

money would likely be traded as pure graft points between Kreikiri', while the common people would probably use simple common-use grafts as trading material, with banking and basic grafting being carried out by a caste of level 1-3 Kreikiri overseers.

legal issues would probably also be handled by the overseers. I could see being vivisected for graft points a rather common punishment for a major crime. all corpses would likely be sent away for graft point conversion.

food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points (it could even be seen as a somewhat scandalous action by some). obligate carnivores would subsist on a diet of specially-created meat-beasts who would likely also be a main graft-point source.

that's all my ideas so far, most of these were though of as I typed them..



You probably don't need a full stat block so long as things are spelled out clearly. Stat-wise it is an extremely simple organism and may not be worth the time to format to look right on the forums.

i'd already added it when I noticed this was written. I think its correct and decently formatted (used the formatting style of the 3.5 SRD).


I understand your concern and share it, which is why I put in the increasing limitations for reharvesting. What if you increased the opportunity cost? By that I mean lower the chance to breed from Legacy->Retained to 30%. That way it's a much harder choice. Harvest for use elsewhere or allow further breeding for a more successful harvest of Tumorous grafts? That would also give a nicer progression of breeding success with integration (30% -> 50% -> 75% ->100%). What think?

I am going for your suggestions in the prior post, I simply stated I was a tad worried about breeding grafts, but see no reason to nerf the idea or reduce the chance of inheritance.


I might vote against the increased Hp/Hardness options. I think that the relative fragility is an interesting balance point. If the player really wants tougher eggs, then he can breed bigger monsters.

ok.


If that's the direction you are looking I think that this could be a missed opportunity. Mitosis type things are something you really don't see in the game (it's rare even for oozes) and applying it to a sapient creature opens up all kinds of fun questions. This really should be a more unique option, it just doesn't have to be a particularly great option.

I really like the idea of them being copies, not just offspring. That leads to retaining memories/levels. This also leads to chaos since no DM wants a player to re-enact Agent Smith from the third Matrix movie. How about when the character divides it results in two identical copies of the character but each suffers two levels/HD of level loss that cannot be restored by any means (other than normal Xp gain of course). This way you have all the fun of instant shared-memory twins, and questioning what it truly means to be an individual, but facing severe diminishing returns should a character decide to populate a country with himself.

You also need to figure out what to do with the various biological resources. Mythos points chould be split evenly, with odd amounts going to the PC. Graft points are technically actual gooey bits and so would be dealt with like any other posession. Grafts, though, need special attention. Baseline grafts should be assigned randomly to either creature. The Legacy and integrated grafts have to be treated differently though. The Retained through to Natural grafts were all something the creature was born with and so should be grown on each copy creature, but still have a chance of further integration. Legacy grafts would be like baseline grafts in that they are not automatically kept, but still provide a chance for integration.

What would this look like in play? Lets have a 13th level character named Robert get a Mitosis graft. Robert currently has 3 grafts, a normal graft, a Legacy graft, and a Retained graft. After coming to terms with becoming asexual, Robert decides to initiate Mitosis. After the gestation period (9 months since it wasn't modified, and during which he put on a few pounds but not much) he enacts a scene straight out of a Cronenberg movie. In his place are two teenage versions of himself covered in gore (teenage because I can't see a grown, viable, organism splitting into pre-mature, non-viable, organisms). We will call them Bob and Bobby, and both are 11th level and retain all of their prior memories and experiences. The normal graft can only go to one so Bob randomly gets it. The Legacy graft gives both a chance to inherit it (30% chance for each of them), going to whoever does not inherit, or rolled randomly as a normal graft if neither inherit. In this case, Bobby inherited a Retained copy but Bob did not, so the Legacy graft automatically goes to Bob. Lastly, the Retained graft is checked for inheritance on both (50% chance). In this case both failed the roll (so neither gets a Tumorous version) but both keep the retained versions of the graft. They can't initiate another Mitosis for 15 years (until they reach adulthood since their development was not modified), and even if they had instant maturation they would still need to wait 27 months due to recovery time.

The end result is that Mitosis would be extremely efficient for graft integration but have a horrible, unavoidable, cumulative cost (level loss) on the affected character. This is a unique opportunity and I think it is very capable of being balanced. What do you think?

i'm liking your idea here, whenever I write about ideas for the mitosis option i'm always being caught between 'proper' mitosis and something more like budding.


Perstige class for the Kreikiri (epic or otherwise)? Me so very excited.

glad to hear, as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

ThreadNecro5
2015-04-30, 07:25 PM
Here are some comments from happy buyers.

I, being a fun guy, used the Graft and Monster-creating Mythos, turning them into a feat for a character in my campaign. Of course, my DM is keeping me busy so I don't use it much... Though it could also be because it IS level 1. It is nice to play as Ozodrin doctor... kek.

I have slightly changed the rules of it but the main idea remains the same, except it requires having access to the features or studying the organs, limbs and creature Types and subtypes.

Yes, it will shape up to quite a high power game later on, but it is only because this ability... IS SO FUN! I would have played Keikiri itself... But I don't want to force the whole might of Mythos class on my unprepared DM, it would make him go crazy.

I must thank you plenty for creating this class, it's idea and its mythos.

good to hear your enjoying playing around with stuff from the class, I can say that it has came to reflect my GMing mindset quite well of giving players a load of toys to play around with, so between that, it being fun to play, and having someone (more or less) actually play the thing, the Kreikiri can now officially be called successful homebrew :smallbiggrin:.

Yasahiro
2015-04-30, 08:31 PM
campaign details: will be using in my solo pathfinder campaign with my nephew, playing an orc fighter/ranger gusalt (or however you spell it) who has the highest body count of a LV2 non-caster you've ever seen, and is one murder away from becoming CE.

planning to set it underground (for campaign simplicity as that's where my player(s) are. will mainly be an immense cavern system containing about four city's (and maybe a few towns). one city will be beside an underground lake.

main population will be mongrelmen (or beings who might as well be) with a significant number of inherited grafts, but will have a wide number of creatures, created and natural (I like the variety it will allow). in a society with the number of weird creatures it would support race, as well as appearance, deformity and other such body issues would be a non-issue.

each city is lead by a Kreikiri of about 10-15th level, and the main 'capital' city is a Kreikiri of 19th level (perhaps the original founder of the nation who created the other leaders).

may include some conflict with stuff from the abyss as I currently have the player facing two rival demon lord cults.

a lucrative business could likely be found in hunting creatures for the Kreikiri' to convert into graft points

in terms of life for the commoners it would likely be that cosmetic grafting would be common (treated like ear piercings, or perhaps even as mundane as hair dye), as well as more practical grafting being used my most members of society. working would be mandatory (as someone who is not otherwise useful could in theory find themselves used as spare parts), with people sorted into what jobs they would be good at (and potently modified as necessary/desired)

money would likely be traded as pure graft points between Kreikiri', while the common people would probably use simple common-use grafts as trading material, with banking and basic grafting being carried out by a caste of level 1-3 Kreikiri overseers.

legal issues would probably also be handled by the overseers. I could see being vivisected for graft points a rather common punishment for a major crime. all corpses would likely be sent away for graft point conversion.

food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points (it could even be seen as a somewhat scandalous action by some). obligate carnivores would subsist on a diet of specially-created meat-beasts who would likely also be a main graft-point source.

that's all my ideas so far, most of these were though of as I typed them..



I like this setting a lot. I am actually planning on setting up such a city or similar to such a thing in MY own campaign.



i'm liking your idea here, whenever I write about ideas for the mitosis option i'm always being caught between 'proper' mitosis and something more like budding.

Speaking of budding...

http://www.scottgames.com/4.jpg



glad to hear, as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

I started laughing at this.

ThreadNecro5
2015-05-03, 12:50 PM
that is me made the changes to the excellencys.

I am also announcing that I will be unable to check back in here for a few days, about three or so, due to staying with a relative.

Quarian Rex
2015-05-06, 07:30 AM
Just a quick review of some of the recent changes. Everything looks great and most of what I have to say is basically nitpicking, but hopefully useful nitpicking.


Excellency's



Resculpting the flesh



Each time you take this Excellency you lose all the permanent negative statistic modifiers you possess form a single source, for example race, template, etc.

I suggest you change the bolded part to ability score. Current wording means that things like to-hit/AC penalties for size can be removed, and I don't think that was the intention.




Fleshcrafting Prodigy

Remember to bump up the font on this one to match the others.




Structure shifting alterations



This Excellency can create essentially any alteration to the humanoid form, but any unnatural...

Replace humanoid with 'creature's' and you're good. Current wording implies a limitation that does not seem to be intended.




Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

If you're going with Genetic as a label (I'm still partial to Tumorous but I am full of bias) then you might want to switch the name with Inherited so there is a more clear progression. Genetic sounds like a deeper bond than Inherited. After all, crack addiction and AIDS can be inherited yet are not genetic.

Also, a note should be made about the DCs of Modified gestation and Modified development. While both options can become quite expensive they do not add any real mechanical advantage (other than a strategic one, which doesn't apply in a combat encounter) and so should probably not modify the implantation/creation DC much. Perhaps say that Modified gestation and Modified development each count as a CL 2 magic item (regardless of the number of graft points spent within each augment) for the purposes of implantation/creation.



Modified gestation
Laying eggs



The HP of the egg is halved per size the parents are smaller than medium (rounded up) and doubled for each...

Just add the bolded part to prevent the eggs from almost immediately losing all Hp and removing the question of whether a Diminutive egg has zero Hp.



Mitosis

I see that you doubled-down and just had the mitosis auto-progress the graft integration. Good call. That's actually a really good counterpoint to the automatic level loss. It provides the player with yet another difficult choice to make and results in clear, concise language. Nice.



Kreikiri Fantastic Mythos



Power-stealing aberrant-liege



... having an amount of mythos points equal to 1/5th of the amount of mythos points it would cost to purchase the mythos used, unless some other points-based medium is used in the mythos, using 1/5th the value of points used instead, e.g. a creature with a Kreikiri–granted graft counts as having an amount equal to 1/5th the amount of points used to make the graft.

Just add the bolded parts, otherwise the Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion rate will be way too high.




Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry



Once the creature becomes mindless it is also driven onto a feral state in which it will violently lash out at anything animate around it that is not itself another creature in this state, including the Kreikiri who caused its suffering. Mindless creatures created in this way can still be 'Pushed' (as per the Handle Animal skill, regardless of creature type) by the Kreikiri who initiated this Mythos at any time, and it can be applied to multiple creatures in the same area (so long as the Kreikiri can be percieved). These mindless creatures, being Mindless, have trouble focusing on a task for long.

Pushing such a creature to preform any trick other than 'Attack' will only work for 1d3 rounds before the creature forgets what it was doing and seeks something to maul (including the Kreikiri). Even the 'Attack' trick will only hold the creatures attention until its current target is incapacitated, after which it will attack those who have injured it/are closest (again, including the Kreikiri). The duration of the creatures attention is not known by the Kreikiri. Further sucessful attempts to push the creature reset the duration of the control.

Try adding the bolded parts (or something like it). As much as I go on about the lack of control being a balance point, I think it is entirely appropriate to allow the Kreikiri to direct the hate-flood of a tsunami of death-beasts. Why? Because 'Pushing' is a full-round action and a DC 25 skill check. With a 1d3 rnd duration on anything but an attack action he will need to be making that check every round to make sure he stays in control of the pack/herd/whatever. And if he blinks? If he stutters? They pounce.

That sounds like all kinds of fun.




Mental-lords’ unity



Creature:
you may add up to a number of instincts equal to ¼ of your Kreikiri level. These are added during construction and may not be changed later. The instincts serve in part form the core of the personality and temperament of the creature and, should they breed, their offspring. A creature is unable to resist these inborn instincts in any way, though further instincts added through grafts may be resisted as normal

Add the bolded or somesuch. It is implied, just spell out the mechanical effect of that implication.



Mind-warping restructuring
Conditions:
Helpless

Just remove Helpless from the list. This is usually a side-effect of other conditions (like unconsciousness, or paralysis), not an inflictable condition in and of itself.




Ever-shifting protean-mastery



The kyniteros was not bound by piecing itself out of harvested flesh, it was able to manifest its power at a moment’s notice, unbound by form.

This mythos grants the Kreikiri the ability to store a number of grafts internally and withdraw them into itself.

Looks like you double posted these sentences. Just get rid of one of the sets.





*Campaign Notes*

Nice. The founder of the nation becoming the capital? Double nice. Also, using Mongrelmen as the end result of generations of unrestricted graft breeding is a good touch.

This part did get me thinking though...


food would likely be confined to fungi and cavern-dwelling plants, meat being too valuable to be eaten when it could instead become graft points...

One thing that I noticed right away when first reading this class was that harvesting was a very selective process. By that I mean that a base Kreikiri harvesting a human can only get enough Graft points to make a single limb on a perfect roll (getting 4 Graft points), but is far more likely to only be able to get enough for a mouth or an eye. It looks like only the very best bits are useful for grafting.

That leaves a lot of leftover meat. I mean a lot. This could have some interesting implications for your society. While the peasantry might be told that meat is far too precious for them, those in power (and anyone involved in harvesting) will know better. This could later be an interesting plot point, potentially leading to uprising, when the population realizes that they are being kept weak/hungry not out of necessity, but due to choice. Interesting.




as far as what it is its basically the natural evolution of Living-world shintai combined with some psionic ability. by the end of the class you should be becoming something akin to the brethren moons from the dead space games (yes: moons, plural). as expected the class will have the side effect of breaking your campaign setting.

Nice. I always loved the lore behind those games. I am looking forward.

Yasahiro
2015-05-07, 10:32 PM
To me, Bestal Shedding Blur still makes no sense. So if I want to attack two more times with my bite, I get a -4 penalty? Or does it stack with iterative attack penalty so it would be -4/-9/-14 ?

ThreadNecro5
2015-05-08, 02:21 PM
Just a quick review of some of the recent changes. Everything looks great and most of what I have to say is basically nitpicking, but hopefully useful nitpicking.


Excellency's

I suggest you change the bolded part to ability score. Current wording means that things like to-hit/AC penalties for size can be removed, and I don't think that was the intention.

will fix this, I personally usually refer to the ability scores as statistics.


Remember to bump up the font on this one to match the others.

will do


Replace humanoid with 'creature's' and you're good. Current wording implies a limitation that does not seem to be intended.

will correct this, I said humanoid originally as my original thought behind the excellency was 'well someones going to ask how they could do plastic surgery and iv been looking to add an option for minor surgery, so this idea should work'


If you're going with Genetic as a label (I'm still partial to Tumorous but I am full of bias) then you might want to switch the name with Inherited so there is a more clear progression. Genetic sounds like a deeper bond than Inherited. After all, crack addiction and AIDS can be inherited yet are not genetic.

makes sense, will make the swap.


Also, a note should be made about the DCs of Modified gestation and Modified development. While both options can become quite expensive they do not add any real mechanical advantage (other than a strategic one, which doesn't apply in a combat encounter) and so should probably not modify the implantation/creation DC much. Perhaps say that Modified gestation and Modified development each count as a CL 2 magic item (regardless of the number of graft points spent within each augment) for the purposes of implantation/creation.

good idea.


Just add the bolded part to prevent the eggs from almost immediately losing all Hp and removing the question of whether a Diminutive egg has zero Hp.

will add.


I see that you doubled-down and just had the mitosis auto-progress the graft integration. Good call. That's actually a really good counterpoint to the automatic level loss. It provides the player with yet another difficult choice to make and results in clear, concise language. Nice.

thank you.


Just add the bolded parts, otherwise the Graft Point -> Mythos Point conversion rate will be way too high.

will correct this.


Try adding the bolded parts (or something like it). As much as I go on about the lack of control being a balance point, I think it is entirely appropriate to allow the Kreikiri to direct the hate-flood of a tsunami of death-beasts. Why? Because 'Pushing' is a full-round action and a DC 25 skill check. With a 1d3 rnd duration on anything but an attack action he will need to be making that check every round to make sure he stays in control of the pack/herd/whatever. And if he blinks? If he stutters? They pounce.

That sounds like all kinds of fun.

nice idea, it should like it could make for some tense moments on the table.



Add the bolded or somesuch. It is implied, just spell out the mechanical effect of that implication.

will do.


Just remove Helpless from the list. This is usually a side-effect of other conditions (like unconsciousness, or paralysis), not an inflictable condition in and of itself.

ok.


Looks like you double posted these sentences. Just get rid of one of the sets.

must have got left in when I pasted in new information.


Nice. The founder of the nation becoming the capital? Double nice. Also, using Mongrelmen as the end result of generations of unrestricted graft breeding is a good touch.

another idea I have had is the founder-city itself using a graft with the puppet feature to act as its 'face' to the public, as well as others to act as an additional 'face in the crowd' option to interact with the people.


One thing that I noticed right away when first reading this class was that harvesting was a very selective process. By that I mean that a base Kreikiri harvesting a human can only get enough Graft points to make a single limb on a perfect roll (getting 4 Graft points), but is far more likely to only be able to get enough for a mouth or an eye. It looks like only the very best bits are useful for grafting.

That leaves a lot of leftover meat. I mean a lot. This could have some interesting implications for your society. While the peasantry might be told that meat is far too precious for them, those in power (and anyone involved in harvesting) will know better. This could later be an interesting plot point, potentially leading to uprising, when the population realizes that they are being kept weak/hungry not out of necessity, but due to choice. Interesting.

well the people in the cities wouldn't be kept weak due to how a Kreikiri could not want weak servants. outside of cities could still be possible with the forgotten peoples of the society beginning a political rebellion. in the main creator-city it would certainly be interesting as the city itself would be making natural attacks and altering itself in battle. not to mention that forming a rebellion inside the city would be impossible as the walls and streets are literally listening in on you (and probably visibly watching too).


also to reply to yasahiro I will specify in that mythos.

qazzquimby
2015-05-08, 04:27 PM
You should make it clear to new readers what the theme of the class is. The name says nothing, the fluff is a wall of text that is mostly background, and the banner just looks like kind of gross people.

Yasahiro
2015-05-08, 09:40 PM
I realized a dumb.

What is the DC for Will save a creature has to make if you use Power-stealing mythos on them?

Quarian Rex
2015-05-09, 07:08 PM
I realized a dumb.

What is the DC for Will save a creature has to make if you use Power-stealing mythos on them?

Save DC for just about everything is 10 + 1/2 Kreikiri level + Wis mod. It's mentioned under The kyniterosis' Mythos.

ThreadNecro5
2015-05-11, 05:36 PM
You should make it clear to new readers what the theme of the class is. The name says nothing, the fluff is a wall of text that is mostly background, and the banner just looks like kind of gross people.

perhaps something like 'mythic fleshwarper' could work? It sums up the basic abilities of the class. I could also add a note as to whom each banner character is.

edit:
Without a reply, I have decided that I may as well include a note as to the identities of the banner characters to help people gain a feeling of the class.

Quarian Rex
2015-05-22, 07:00 PM
Continuing with the first of the Legendary mythos.



Kreikiri Legendary mythos

Eternal-legends-defeated supremacy returned {Whole}


This is an interesting, if incredibly niche, ability. The chances of getting homebrew into most games? Slim. The chances of said homebrew being the basis of a campaign (or even having a presence outside of the PC)? Slim to none. Despite that, this can be a great ability in the right situation. Just loosen up with the penalties a bit. Only giving access to exceptional mythos and charging an extra 50%? Ok, harsh, maybe unnecessary. Having the price go up 10% every time you take one? That's just petty. And requires excessive bookeeping and annoying math (as opposed to the fun math). Just to gain access to the most basic abilities of another class. Some of those abilities are pretty sweet, don't get me wrong, but none are game-changers at this point in the game.

As for getting it multiple times, stop the madness, don't double the costs. This is an extremely niche ability that provides no actual powers or abilities by itself (it only allows the further purchase of additional powers). No need to charge through the nose for it.

Also, have you seen this... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17286276&postcount=1
Specifically the feats at the bottom. That feat chain, available starting at level one, is more flexible and offers greater access than this Legendary Mythos. I think that is a problem. This mythos just seems like too little, too late.

I like the idea behind this mythos, consuming and using the powers of other mythos users, but the mechanics need a retooling. You need something that seems like it is worthy of a Legendary Mythos.

How about whenever you kill a Mythos user with Legend-burnout ash harvester you may gain one of their Mythos or Excellencies, of no higher level than the Kreikiri can already access. Upon purchase of this power the Kreikiri may store one Mythos and one Excellency. Either of these powers may be replaced every time a suitable target dies due to Legend-burnout ash harvester. Add two Advanced manifestations, one allowing you to store one additional Mythos, and another allowing 2 more Excellencies.

State that so long as the Kreikiri has access to a mythos from a specific class they also have any needed class abilities specific to those mythos. For example, gaining a Monster's Mythos from a Teramach would grant the Monstrous Rage class ability (but not the Scarred Flesh or Primitive Brutality class abilities), while gaining any of The Abomination's Mythos from an Olethrofex would also grant Death's Torn Tapestry (but not Horror Manifest). This way the stolen powers are fully functional.

Something along these lines will provide enough versatility and use to be worthy of its level. What do you think?




Disassociated undying-flesh {Splintered}


Great ability. Flavourful and useful. You just need to address some of the staggering implications and need to clean up some of the language. Specifically...


In the case of full round actions all relevant parts must be within 5ft of point of interaction with the action space and only a single one may be made.

This uses ill defined terms and I'm still not quite sure what you mean. I think you mean that all attacks in a full attack action must be on the same target, even if made from different detached body parts. I still have no idea what you mean by, "only a single one may be made".

Since dismemberment is so rare in actual gameplay you need to say what happens when the character tears off one of their own limbs. Once a Kreikiri gets this power they will be leaving bits of themselves around. How will this be accomplished?

Also, explain what happens if a significant portion of your body is destroyed (burned at the stake, Disintegrated, dropped into lava, etc.). As it currently stands you may be playing a sentient thumb for a full level till you can get Regenerative Restorations. In fact, you might just want to turn all of the advanced manifestations into basic manifestations. That gives the user an immediate opportunity to deal with any life-as-a-thumb type situations.

You might want to add the option to eat yourself a new body (similar to Re-genesis gambit) so long as you have a mouth. If you don't have a mouth? That's what Mutagenic mutilation is for.

The more I think about it, you need to think of this as a fleshy Lich transformation, because that's kind of what it is. The problem with that is that the base ability gives you a phylactery (your entire body) but no way to reform yourself. This really needs all of the manifestations to be Basic.



Advanced manifestations
Mutagenic mutilation (requires Ever-shifting protean-mastery)

Interesting ability. So many possibilities. I really like it.



Regenerative restorations

Almost required for pseudo-immortal regenerative goodness. Two things though. Change...


Whenever you heal naturally you gain an additional two hit points.

to...
'Whenever you heal naturally you heal an additional two points of damage (hit point or Ability damage).'

That, conbined with healing every hour, makes this the true recovery option. The boost to only Hp healing was just too lackluster.

The second point is that regrowth times are just way too long. When it comes to downtime a lot of it is hand-waived but (in my experience) most of it isn't. That is almost a month of game-time where the character is out of action. Speed this up and make it more intuitive. How about 24 hrs to get the shrunken parts version and another 48 hrs to fully recover, three days total. Long enough to have bodypart loss become meaningful, not so long that the entire campaign needs to come to a grinding halt.



Division of fragments

Another good option for the power. Seriously consider making these all basic manifestations though. Seriously.




Horror raising mutant master {Splintered}

Ensuring that even if trapped in a prison that cannot be escaped monsters will still be born. I like this very much. The only problem that I have is that it is quite 'meh' for the level. This is a very simple, relatively minor, ability that seems out of place among the Legendary mythos. Strongly consider moving this to Fantastic instead. This is a good ability and has it's place, just as a much earlier option.



Advent manifestations
Endless meat

Good name. Does exactly what it says on the tin. No complaints.

Also, Advent->Advanced.



Flesh flowing like the tide

This is a must have ability. This is also something that seems like it should be an earlier option. I strongly suggest making this entire mythos Fabtastic.


Will continue soon. Things are busy and Creeping flesh-fortress is deserving of much consideration.

ThreadNecro5
2015-05-26, 02:49 PM
Continuing with the first of the Legendary mythos.

This is an interesting, if incredibly niche, ability. The chances of getting homebrew into most games? Slim. The chances of said homebrew being the basis of a campaign (or even having a presence outside of the PC)? Slim to none. Despite that, this can be a great ability in the right situation. Just loosen up with the penalties a bit. Only giving access to exceptional mythos and charging an extra 50%? Ok, harsh, maybe unnecessary. Having the price go up 10% every time you take one? That's just petty. And requires excessive bookeeping and annoying math (as opposed to the fun math). Just to gain access to the most basic abilities of another class. Some of those abilities are pretty sweet, don't get me wrong, but none are game-changers at this point in the game.

As for getting it multiple times, stop the madness, don't double the costs. This is an extremely niche ability that provides no actual powers or abilities by itself (it only allows the further purchase of additional powers). No need to charge through the nose for it.

I suppose you are right here, I did set the cost rather high.


Also, have you seen this... http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=17286276&postcount=1
Specifically the feats at the bottom. That feat chain, available starting at level one, is more flexible and offers greater access than this Legendary Mythos. I think that is a problem. This mythos just seems like too little, too late.

I like the idea behind this mythos, consuming and using the powers of other mythos users, but the mechanics need a retooling. You need something that seems like it is worthy of a Legendary Mythos.

How about whenever you kill a Mythos user with Legend-burnout ash harvester you may gain one of their Mythos or Excellencies, of no higher level than the Kreikiri can already access. Upon purchase of this power the Kreikiri may store one Mythos and one Excellency. Either of these powers may be replaced every time a suitable target dies due to Legend-burnout ash harvester. Add two Advanced manifestations, one allowing you to store one additional Mythos, and another allowing 2 more Excellencies.

State that so long as the Kreikiri has access to a mythos from a specific class they also have any needed class abilities specific to those mythos. For example, gaining a Monster's Mythos from a Teramach would grant the Monstrous Rage class ability (but not the Scarred Flesh or Primitive Brutality class abilities), while gaining any of The Abomination's Mythos from an Olethrofex would also grant Death's Torn Tapestry (but not Horror Manifest). This way the stolen powers are fully functional.

Something along these lines will provide enough versatility and use to be worthy of its level. What do you think?

really like your idea here, more manageable than what I already have and work in like with several of the design themes I've used for the mythos. will use.


Great ability. Flavourful and useful. You just need to address some of the staggering implications and need to clean up some of the language. Specifically...

This uses ill defined terms and I'm still not quite sure what you mean. I think you mean that all attacks in a full attack action must be on the same target, even if made from different detached body parts. I still have no idea what you mean by, "only a single one may be made".

I will clarify this. what I meant by this was (I think, i'm sure it was late when I wrote this) that all parts involved in the full round action must be within 5ft of the save being acted upon/what the action is effecting. your full attack example being the most common of such cases.


Since dismemberment is so rare in actual gameplay you need to say what happens when the character tears off one of their own limbs. Once a Kreikiri gets this power they will be leaving bits of themselves around. How will this be accomplished?

perhaps I could just make it a full round action? maybe add a little damage if you recommend some cost to doing so.


Also, explain what happens if a significant portion of your body is destroyed (burned at the stake, Disintegrated, dropped into lava, etc.). As it currently stands you may be playing a sentient thumb for a full level till you can get Regenerative Restorations. In fact, you might just want to turn all of the advanced manifestations into basic manifestations. That gives the user an immediate opportunity to deal with any life-as-a-thumb type situations.

You might want to add the option to eat yourself a new body (similar to Re-genesis gambit) so long as you have a mouth. If you don't have a mouth? That's what Mutagenic mutilation is for.

The more I think about it, you need to think of this as a fleshy Lich transformation, because that's kind of what it is. The problem with that is that the base ability gives you a phylactery (your entire body) but no way to reform yourself. This really needs all of the manifestations to be Basic.

will make the manifestations basic. as for the eat-yourself a new body idea I could make that a manifestation, or include it as a part of another manifestation or the base ability (personally I think add to base ability as its simple to add and adds that regenerating yourself feature), what would you recommend?


Almost required for pseudo-immortal regenerative goodness. Two things though. Change...

to...
'Whenever you heal naturally you heal an additional two points of damage (hit point or Ability damage).'

That, conbined with healing every hour, makes this the true recovery option. The boost to only Hp healing was just too lackluster.

The second point is that regrowth times are just way too long. When it comes to downtime a lot of it is hand-waived but (in my experience) most of it isn't. That is almost a month of game-time where the character is out of action. Speed this up and make it more intuitive. How about 24 hrs to get the shrunken parts version and another 48 hrs to fully recover, three days total. Long enough to have bodypart loss become meaningful, not so long that the entire campaign needs to come to a grinding halt.

will make the suggested changes.


Ensuring that even if trapped in a prison that cannot be escaped monsters will still be born. I like this very much. The only problem that I have is that it is quite 'meh' for the level. This is a very simple, relatively minor, ability that seems out of place among the Legendary mythos. Strongly consider moving this to Fantastic instead. This is a good ability and has it's place, just as a much earlier option.

will make the change then.


Also, Advent->Advanced

autocorrect dun goofed again...


Will continue soon. Things are busy and Creeping flesh-fortress is deserving of much consideration.

don't worry, take your time. and tanks again for the PEACH.

Quarian Rex
2015-05-26, 10:55 PM
I will clarify this. what I meant by this was (I think, i'm sure it was late when I wrote this) that all parts involved in the full round action must be within 5ft of the save being acted upon/what the action is effecting. your full attack example being the most common of such cases.

I see where you're going here but I might urge you against it. This is a high enough level ability that I don't think you need any unintuitive proximity based limit on how these bits can interact. At this point in their career, if a Kreikiri wants to tear off their own arm, throw it across the room to grapple someone, while he bites the head off of a mook, I think that is a perfectly appropriate form of multitasking. So long as you are clear about what can be done with an individual part (need the actual natural weapon on the severed limb to attack with it, need an entire arm to grapple, not just a thumb, etc.). Actually, you might want to allow some options with this sort of thing as well.

Say that if an attack is being made with less than the required amount of flesh then it suffers a -5 to hit/manuver check (kind of like a secondary natural attack) and does half damage. That way you can still have someone grapple with just your severed hand (hello Evil Dead), or have a single severed claw finger furiously gouging into some poor buggers' eye. Optimal? No. Fun/flavourful? Yup. You are still limited by the characters' actual action economy so there is no real way for this to be broken. Thoughts?



perhaps I could just make it a full round action? maybe add a little damage if you recommend some cost to doing so.

How about a full round action for clean removal with the option to pull it off as a move action but you need to make a DC25 Heal check or take 2d6 damage? With this level of body control it makes sense that they could detatch without trauma, yet embracing a quick and dirty method for the sake of expedience fits the theme as well.




will make the manifestations basic. as for the eat-yourself a new body idea I could make that a manifestation, or include it as a part of another manifestation or the base ability (personally I think add to base ability as its simple to add and adds that regenerating yourself feature), what would you recommend?

Adding it to the base ability seems like the best bet. It's flavourful and allows the Kreikiri to select any of the manefestations without being at a severe disadvantage. As for mechanics, you might just want to refer to Re-genesis gambit, saying that this uses the same mechanics (regrow without the grafts on missing bodyparts unless you eat their cost in Graft points as well), but that the cost of the body is prorortional to what is missing.

ThreadNecro5
2015-05-27, 04:12 PM
I see where you're going here but I might urge you against it. This is a high enough level ability that I don't think you need any unintuitive proximity based limit on how these bits can interact. At this point in their career, if a Kreikiri wants to tear off their own arm, throw it across the room to grapple someone, while he bites the head off of a mook, I think that is a perfectly appropriate form of multitasking. So long as you are clear about what can be done with an individual part (need the actual natural weapon on the severed limb to attack with it, need an entire arm to grapple, not just a thumb, etc.). Actually, you might want to allow some options with this sort of thing as well.

Say that if an attack is being made with less than the required amount of flesh then it suffers a -5 to hit/manuver check (kind of like a secondary natural attack) and does half damage. That way you can still have someone grapple with just your severed hand (hello Evil Dead), or have a single severed claw finger furiously gouging into some poor buggers' eye. Optimal? No. Fun/flavourful? Yup. You are still limited by the characters' actual action economy so there is no real way for this to be broken. Thoughts?

I like this, and it seems fun to play around with.


How about a full round action for clean removal with the option to pull it off as a move action but you need to make a DC25 Heal check or take 2d6 damage? With this level of body control it makes sense that they could detatch without trauma, yet embracing a quick and dirty method for the sake of expedience fits the theme as well.

your idea here make sense and gives the player some tactical choices to make, will include it.


Adding it to the base ability seems like the best bet. It's flavourful and allows the Kreikiri to select any of the manefestations without being at a severe disadvantage. As for mechanics, you might just want to refer to Re-genesis gambit, saying that this uses the same mechanics (regrow without the grafts on missing bodyparts unless you eat their cost in Graft points as well), but that the cost of the body is prorortional to what is missing.

ok, will add to base ability. for prices for the base body regeneration before grafts are added, I'm thinking putting them at the same cost as for a created creature.

Quarian Rex
2015-05-27, 11:13 PM
ok, will add to base ability. for prices for the base body regeneration before grafts are added, I'm thinking putting them at the same cost as for a created creature.

Think hard on that. Using the cost of the character as a created creature will be prohibitively expensive (making creatures is bloody expensive) and will require a lot of unintuitive math (trying to figure out the Graft point costs of every racial trait for even an elf will be a major pain). Another consideration is that I don't see where the added complexity will add anything worthwhile to gameplay. Using the costs of a created creature will just be a significant timesink, both in an out of the game.

I think that this is one of those times where hand-waving the specifics of the regrown body (and saying that it just takes 20 Graft points per character level, like in the precedent of Re-genesis gambit) is a much better option for the sake of playability. Besides, the player will make it an expensive, drawn out affair all by them selves. All those eaten/severed/burned grafts won't regrow themselves now will they?

This gives the player the option of coming back quick and easy but with no power (no grafts), or slow and expensive but fully intact. That can be a horrible (and therefore fun) choice to have to make.

Yasahiro
2015-05-31, 02:50 PM
Currently,I only have issues with some typos, some non capitalized letters like when a mythos grants you a feat... or the fact that most ability increase points for Whole Keikiri are from the Fortress Legendary Mythos manifestations, and these are expensive.

I'd suggest that you put the manifestations in italics as the Xefas mythos classes have, because having it be bold in some cases screws up the formatting or it just looks worse. This makes it easy to just know which are the manifestations for non-smart people.

Quarian Rex
2015-05-31, 10:25 PM
I'd suggest that you put the manifestations in italics as the Xefas mythos classes have...


I actually hadn't really noticed that. Good advice,

Yasahiro
2015-06-01, 05:20 AM
Do the cost of augmentations to created creature listed in Monster Making Beast Lord also get multiplied? I am referring to Transient Skill and such, because then the cost for one class level becomes 500 points for created creature. And the ability to reproduce becomes worth 2.5 times the basic cost of creature...

Edit: Can conversion chambers hold more than one graft?

Quarian Rex
2015-06-01, 02:27 PM
Do the cost of augmentations to created creature listed in Monster Making Beast Lord also get multiplied? I am referring to Transient Skill and such, because then the cost for one class level becomes 500 points for created creature. And the ability to reproduce becomes worth 2.5 times the basic cost of creature...

Nope. Those are options only for created creatures, not available for grafts, so their costs are already adjusted.




Edit: Can conversion chambers hold more than one graft?

I would think only one, if for no other reason than to avoid any complications due to partially exceeding the Graft limit. ThreadNecro5 would have to say for sure.

Yasahiro
2015-06-02, 05:41 PM
So wait, the effective levels that the grafts might require when attached to creature, as in the Ozodrin feature based grafts... Well, Ozodrin mostly uses the class level for DCs of stuff or size of stomach. That is all it is used for. I assume that was what was meant in the Graft mythos?

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-06, 03:31 PM
wow I seem to have missed quite a bit, last time I checked in I forgot the thread had moved onto a third page and so out of force of habit only checked the second page.

to reply to Yasahiro:
I never noticed that manifestations were in italics before (seriously how did I not notice that?).

I will add the italics and go through the mythos again for typos.

the augmentations for Monster Making Beast Lord are not themselves multiplied and a conversion chamber may hold only one graft, as Quarian Rex said.

finally as for your question on the meaning of the 'and use the HD of the person with the graft for effective levels where otherwise necessary' part of Limb-shredding graft-taker (at least that's what I assume you are referring to) you would be right.


also a thank you to Quarian Rex for answering questions on my behalf when I was unavailable due to horrendous thread oversight.

Yasahiro
2015-06-08, 06:07 PM
So wait, I did the math. A creature that is medium sized, has 2 HD, a torso and a mouth, and has a gestation and recovery period of one day, with the young growing to adulthood within minutes... And reproduce asexually...

It's about 2650 graft points, give or take a hundred. And that's BEFORE reducing their intelligence.

This way, you get nice source of graft points

Would that be right?

Quarian Rex
2015-06-09, 03:33 AM
So wait, I did the math. A creature that is medium sized, has 2 HD, a torso and a mouth, and has a gestation and recovery period of one day, with the young growing to adulthood within minutes... And reproduce asexually...

It's about 2650 graft points, give or take a hundred. And that's BEFORE reducing their intelligence.

This way, you get nice source of graft points

Would that be right?

Lets walk through this. For a fast replicating stump with a mouth like you described it would cost 782 Graft points (783 if your DM lokes to round up).

- base 2 HD torso -> 15
- Mouth Feature -> 10 (total 25)
- Cascade of Life -> 25 x 1.5 = 37 (or 38 if DM rounds up)
- Modified gestation -> 5
- Asexual Reproduction -> 15
- Reducing time needed to gestate from 9 months to 1 week (assuming 4 weeks per month) -> 350
- Reducing time needed to gestate from 1 week to 1 day -> 60
- Reducing childhood from 15 years (assuming human as a base) to 5 years -> -25
- Moving time in childhood to adulthood to get childhood to 1 year -> 40 (cost is doubled for intelligent creatures this young)
- Modifying childhood as above from 1 year to 1 month -> 110
- Modifying childhood as above from 1 month to 1 week -> 30
- Modifying childhood as above from 1 week to 1 day -> 60
- 'Instant' maturation -> 100

= 782 Graft points

782 points to get the belching/screaming/mewling/drooling/self-replicating flesh-stumps that you have always wanted. Remember as well that when they are harvested you don't get back any of those invested Graft points. They are treated just like any other 2 HD medium creature.

If you want to get the most out of a self-replicating flesh farm you might want to invest in more HD and/or a larger size. Granted, both of those options will greatly increase the initial cost (HD because it is one of the most expensive features, and size because it will cause the creature to have a higher gestation time, needing more resources to get it down to one day) but would allow a much more efficient return on investment.

Yasahiro
2015-06-09, 09:42 AM
I do not understand why does the childhood period have to be reduced if just the instant maturation can be brought.

Also, you forgot about this in the Cascade of Life.


Additional should you possess the ‘Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration’ Excellency you may add the Modified Gestation and/or Modified Development augment for five times the price.

Also, I am said that it says that unaging creatures can't reproduce, eh...

Quarian Rex
2015-06-09, 12:10 PM
I do not understand why does the childhood period have to be reduced if just the instant maturation can be brought.

*facepalm*


Also, you forgot about this in the Cascade of Life.

*double facepalm*

My bad. That will serve as a lesson to never post at 4am.

Correct cost would in fact be 2687. This actually makes extra HD even more economical. Adding 4 HD more would only cost an extra 563 and would triple the Graft point harvest. You could double that again if you made them large, and could keep the price the same if you made them egg-layers and applied the gestation time reduction solely to recovery. You would have to wait 18 months for the first egg to hatch but you would have a new one hatch every day.

Which way you go really depends on whether you are building the foundations of an empire or are trying to get some extra Graft points in that week of downtime the DM gave you (and make the innkeeper really uncomfortable).

EdroGrimshell
2015-06-09, 12:40 PM
I'm curious, would there be a way to turn grafts into symbionts?

Quarian Rex
2015-06-09, 01:50 PM
I'm curious, would there be a way to turn grafts into symbionts?

Kind-of. When you create a creature with Monster-Making Beast-Lord you can add the Symbiont subtype if you have the Flesh-Altering Master advanced manifestation. It is a much more expensive option than straight grafts but it opens up a lot of interesting possibilities.

One of the ideas that has been rattling around my head is to create a warrior race that utilizes this sort of thing. They would be born into a larval stage (courtesy of Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration) that would serve as symbiotic armour/weapons for their parents.

You have no idea how much I want to give this sort of thing a try in-game.

Yasahiro
2015-06-09, 02:58 PM
If I am reading this right, the mother has no gestation period for the young to develop if she has laying eggs. As in...

The mother lays an egg. She has 1/4 recovery period based on gestation period but that's it. She is never carrying the egg unless they take care of their young, so no burden or issues.

The only thing is that the egg takes time to hatch, which is the gestation period. Is that right?

Quarian Rex
2015-06-09, 03:13 PM
If I am reading this right, the mother has no gestation period for the young to develop if she has laying eggs. As in...

The mother lays an egg. She has 1/4 recovery period based on gestation period but that's it. She is never carrying the egg unless they take care of their young, so no burden or issues.

The only thing is that the egg takes time to hatch, which is the gestation period. Is that right?

That's it exactly. There may be additional conditions for the eggs (need to be warm/dry, etc.) but it does allow faster production of young.

EdroGrimshell
2015-06-09, 04:31 PM
Kind-of. When you create a creature with Monster-Making Beast-Lord you can add the Symbiont subtype if you have the Flesh-Altering Master advanced manifestation. It is a much more expensive option than straight grafts but it opens up a lot of interesting possibilities.

One of the ideas that has been rattling around my head is to create a warrior race that utilizes this sort of thing. They would be born into a larval stage (courtesy of Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration) that would serve as symbiotic armour/weapons for their parents.

You have no idea how much I want to give this sort of thing a try in-game.

Except they have no Host Benefits when they do that. They may be able to attach to a creature but that only lets them talk to the host telepathically and have an ego score. It'd be able to use its own abilities, I suppose, but that's not really a symbiont.

Yasahiro
2015-06-09, 05:44 PM
Here's a suggestion to OP.

Fix formatting on Fleshcrafting Prodigy. Also, sort the skills and the excellencies alphabetically, the same way any class.... and any mythos class... does it.

Quarian Rex
2015-06-10, 12:55 AM
Except they have no Host Benefits when they do that. They may be able to attach to a creature but that only lets them talk to the host telepathically and have an ego score. It'd be able to use its own abilities, I suppose, but that's not really a symbiont.

It depends on how technical you wanted to get. Obviously, when creating new creatures, you and the DM have to work together to create something viable. It would not be unreasonable to allow some of the features on a symbiont creature to be designated as host-affecting, a benefit covered by the cost of the Symbiont subtype.

If your DM demands that there be clear rules for every niche application of this ability then you are fighting him to get it in, and that won't end well for your character or the game.

EdroGrimshell
2015-06-10, 11:59 AM
It depends on how technical you wanted to get. Obviously, when creating new creatures, you and the DM have to work together to create something viable. It would not be unreasonable to allow some of the features on a symbiont creature to be designated as host-affecting, a benefit covered by the cost of the Symbiont subtype.

If your DM demands that there be clear rules for every niche application of this ability then you are fighting him to get it in, and that won't end well for your character or the game.

I just like being prepared for that kind of GM, I've had them in the past and it's quite annoying. Something as simple as a note saying: "You can designate features as 'host benefits' for creatures created with the symbiont subtype" would do a world of good in that regard.

Yasahiro
2015-06-10, 12:27 PM
The Monster-Making Beast Lord has some relics of the Cosmic Monstrosity creature making feature. As in, it says that the created creatures are Outsiders native to plane of our choice.

One would think they would be Aberrations. Also, there should be a way to pay points or such to change the TYPE they are, like Monstrous Humanoid, Fey, Etc.

Edit: Can you use Ozodrin augments when you do not have the ozodrin features on the created creature but something that would apply? For example... A creature has Swallow Whole mutation and thus they gain stomach with capacity to hold creatures. Can they just not be given ozodrin stomach feature and simply straight up give them the large stomach augment to increase the capacity?

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-13, 05:53 PM
just here to day that I have not had the chance to check up on the thread the past few days due to a combination of family matters and a day without an internet connection. as it is late I cannot reply to any comments right now and I have plans for tomorrow, but I will be able to check in the day after.

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-15, 11:25 AM
ok, so now that i'm up to date on events I can get to replying to comments.


first, let me congratulate yashahio for being the first to create a fast-breeding stump that will inevitably flood the world :smallbiggrin:. a question however is how it would live it has no limbs and thus cannot move (I suppose making it aquatic could allow for some sort of coral). enjoy your tribbles.


second, as to EdroGrimshell I was originally planning an idea like this what eventually got scrapped when I decided the idea around it was too clunky. as a new version of the idea, I could add under 'Flesh-altering master' that should a creature be given the symbiont subtype you select a magic item slot for it to fill (it is my understanding that symbionts fill an item slot?) when attached to a creature, and also add an additional free augment for such creatures that allows you selectively to purchase augments, evolutions, and possibly magic items, at a small discount when designing them, but the abilities benefiting form the discount may only be used when bonded to a host. does that idea work?


and as to yashahio's mentioning of the creature types of the Created Creature feature, the wording it uses is:

"The Created creature is a medium sized 2HD creature with a type of your choice (outsiders are native to a plane of your choice)..."

so as it says you choose they type but it mentions that outsider Creatures are native to a plane of your choice. unless it is a different section to are referring to.

also as for your question as to using augments to benefit abilities identical to their feature, I'd say it could work as an idea to add, but will have to check its balance later.

Yasahiro
2015-06-15, 12:54 PM
I suggest you have the created creature start out as Aberration or animal or vermin type, and require Kreikiri to pay points to upgrade it into a different type. Aberration would fit it the most as a base, due to how it is created. It is because some HD are powerful


Also, about the stump... Really? Then what about earthworms? Oozes? Giant Purple Worm? These things can move but lack legs. Hell, some things can roll.

I suggest that the base speed is 10 or 15 feet for creatures without limbs

Quarian Rex
2015-06-15, 08:55 PM
I could add under 'Flesh-altering master' that should a creature be given the symbiont subtype you select a magic item slot for it to fill (it is my understanding that symbionts fill an item slot?)...


As a side note, Symbiots sometimes, but not always. take up a magic item slot. If you are thinking about adding a discount on symbiotic features, perhaps only apply said discount if the creature actually takes up a magic slot. Opens options, balances the discount, etc.

Yasahiro
2015-06-16, 07:55 PM
Also, Kreikiri gets one more Mythos than other Mythos classes. Was that on purpose?

Edit: Also some inconsistency with the Excellencies. Hm, odd.

Also, noticed an idea... Because the symbiont subtype does not say anything about the symbionts being larger than the "host".

So a Symbiont Mecha, guys? We making Evangelions?

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-20, 06:31 PM
I suggest you have the created creature start out as Aberration or animal or vermin type, and require Kreikiri to pay points to upgrade it into a different type. Aberration would fit it the most as a base, due to how it is created. It is because some HD are powerful

probably a more balanced idea than just choosing. I'm thinking use the same costings and other specifications as for Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis


Also, about the stump... Really? Then what about earthworms? Oozes? Giant Purple Worm? These things can move but lack legs. Hell, some things can roll.

I suggest that the base speed is 10 or 15 feet for creatures without limbs

this is also a good idea, oddly enough I never thought about making worms for some reason, will include this.


Also, Kreikiri gets one more Mythos than other Mythos classes. Was that on purpose?

Edit: Also some inconsistency with the Excellencies. Hm, odd.

no, the extra mythos was a horrible typo (I suspect muscle memory was to blame from when typing in the Excellencies.), I will correct this.

as to the inconsistency in the Excellencies what are your referring to, some formatting error, or in fluff.

as to all the ideas everyone has about symbionts i'm now thinking that it could work better as an excellency that adds more augments to creating creatures, adding options not just for direct symbionts, but also for tool-creatures, the mech idea and such (other suggestions wold be appreciated if this ends up being done). it would likely result in a more compiled version of all the ideas. this could also work as just an expansion to Monster-Making Beast-Lord with the augments become available when the symbiont subtype is added.

also when considering the above idea of mine when mixed with Quarian Rex's idea of a race with a tool-based larval stage, I got the idea of allowing 'Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration' to give the creatures you create significant Sexual dimorphism (and so allowing both genders to posses a different graft-point construction),aside from creating a new toy for players, in the context of the idea with the larva-tools this also could allow for more variety in equipment (also I could allow for additional genders for the creatures for even more options). a personal idea of mine combining this with the symbiont idea is something like a land-dwelling anglerfish whose males form a biological weapon when they attach to the female (e.g. breath weapon could work).

Yasahiro
2015-06-20, 07:48 PM
Unless I am wrong, the "When you get a new excellency" also is different than other classes... Then again, you lack a skill that increases in power simply through leveling like Flow of Energy or Primitive Brutality... THEN AGAIN, Sundered Perfection grants more stuff



also when considering the above idea of mine when mixed with Quarian Rex's idea of a race with a tool-based larval stage, I got the idea of allowing 'Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration' to give the creatures you create significant Sexual dimorphism (and so allowing both genders to posses a different graft-point construction),aside from creating a new toy for players, in the context of the idea with the larva-tools this also could allow for more variety in equipment (also I could allow for additional genders for the creatures for even more options). a personal idea of mine combining this with the symbiont idea is something like a land-dwelling anglerfish whose males form a biological weapon when they attach to the female (e.g. breath weapon could work).

Most GMs I am using Kreikiri with just houserule that the matter of who the thing can breed with is not that relevant. It's like... If I want sexual dimorphism, I just choose the only creature the thing can mate with as said different creature I created. And then just have random or selected, if chosen when giving the reproduction capabilities, percentages for gender. Hell, you could even have more than 2 genders... Also, how do you determine how many children or eggs at once can a creature have/lay? I mean, twins exist.

Also, the matter of why breeding is only a matter of selecting who belongs to same species... Because in D&D everything breeds with everything. We have half-orcs, half-elves, we have halflings with fiendish blood in their lineage(Basically halfling tieflings, wisplings), we have tieflings. We have Genasi and Half-Dragons. Everything, especially humans, breeds with everything

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-23, 06:44 PM
Unless I am wrong, the "When you get a new excellency" also is different than other classes... Then again, you lack a skill that increases in power simply through leveling like Flow of Energy or Primitive Brutality... THEN AGAIN, Sundered Perfection grants more stuff

Thanks for pointing out the mistakes in when excellency are gained, when writing the table I would have based writing it on whether the prior level was a one or a zero (reading the other classes for reference), so mistakes would have knocked me off.

Next time I comment I will also try and have first draft for expansion for symbiont creatures.

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-26, 03:07 PM
OK, here is the first draft of a symbiont enhancing feature (just the first draft, and the augment for the meat-mech idea is just in an 'essentially what I want it to do' stage):

Symbiotic Creature: Cost 0
This Feature is available to Created Creatures with the Symbiont subtype only. A Creature with this feature may select any of its Features, Augments and/or Evolutions; these selected traits become classified as Symbiotic Traits (these traits are still considered and treated as the type of trait they are for all purposes, the classification only has an effect within the effects of this Feature). The graft point cost of any Symbiotic Traits when creating the creature is reduced by -1, to a minimum of one point. When attached to a host the Creature fills a single magic item slot (which one is chosen by you).

A Creature is unable to make use of any of its Symbiotic Traits unless it is currently attached to a host (the Augments of Features selected as Symbiotic Traits are unavailable at the same time as their feature).

Augments:
Meat Suit Cost ?
When the Creature attaches to a host of their size category or larger, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host themselves is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, (such as using it as a suit). While functioning as host, the host is treated as having taken on the form of the symbiont, as per a polymprph spell, with the following exceptions: supernatural abilities of the symbiont are also gained, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of their or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores, and may use the higher of their or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type.

Whenever the host is damaged, the being in control (either the symbiont of the host) may choose to instead transfer any damage suffered to the symbiont. The symbiont retains its own action while bonded to the host and can act as normal. Should the symbiont become the being in control after a personality conflict the host loses their actions for the turn, which are granted to the symbiont.

A mindless symbiont typically uses its actions to assist its host or, when it is is control will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from ‘Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry’. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the symbiont is in control.

The host and the symbiont may freely use each other’s class features and feats, sharing uses per day.

sorry I was not able to get this up yesterday, wound up preparing for an improvised game night.

another idea I have for improving 'Creeping flesh-fortress' is maybe make it spread every three days once you need to begin rolling to determine when it does so and set the time needed to apply the 'micromanaging' effects to four hours, what do you guys think? I'm thinking it should reduce unneeded bookkeeping.

Yasahiro
2015-06-26, 05:16 PM
When the Creature attaches to a host of their size category or larger, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host themselves is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, (such as using it as a suit)


I think you mean when the host is actually SMALLER than the creature.

Elderand
2015-06-29, 08:14 AM
A few things I'd like to point out, mostly in the realm of editing for clarity.

Skill ranks: missing an x4 at first level
Class skills: Profession is listed twice
Proficiencies: War razor is not a thing in 3.5, just pathfinder. Probably should replace it with gnomish quickrazor.

Class skills and skill ranks are in all caps when hit die and starting gold aren't. All should be all caps or none should for clear formating.
Should probably include links to the other classes in the designer's notes.

Limb shredding graft taker: the phrase "To be suitable for gathering points from a creature must be in a state that it would count as having a body suitable for effects that require one, and it must be composed of solid organic matter (meaning that most elementals and constructs, and some undead are not suitable for harvesting)." seems strange to me, I'd replace it with "To be able to gather points from a creature, it must have a body composed of solid organic matter. Most Elementals, Constructs, some Undead and creatures whose body as been utterly destroyed (By disintegration for example) are not suitable for harvesting."

"A number of graft points are made equal to 1d4 per HD of the creature" I'd change that to "Harvesting provides a number of graft points equal to 1d4 per HD of the creature"

"A creature with graft points is capable of giving its graft points to another creature that can gain them, and can receive graft points from other creatures." I would change to "A creature with a graft points pool..."

"The actual production of a graft is done as per the following method: you select one or more features available to an Ozodrin, and pay for the them and any augments you wish to add as if the points you had to spend were, treating graft points as form points"

"You then may continue to upgrade the graft with an amount of magic items (whose effects are part of the graft) by using the points you have as the GP to spend on the items at a rate of 1 point = 2 GP. You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or use other such modifiers as per magic item creation in the DMG with GM permission." This whole paragraph is confusing. I would change it to this:
"You may then upgrade the graft by allowing it to emulate one or more magic items, you do so by spending a number of graft points equal to half the market cost of the magic item you wish to emulate."
I would remove the whole 50 charges bits entirely and simply say this "You may, with the GM permission, use the magic item creation rules given in the DMG to state up your own custom magic item which you then emulate normaly"
There is no need to restate the 50 charges limitations since that's already in the magic item creation rules.

"A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be raised, and may not be recovered if the body is destroyed, e.g. a disintegrate spell was used. Should a creature with grafts be resurrected, destroyed grafts are restored. In any other case a Regenerate spell can restore any grafts lost to death if used within 24hrs of returning to life."
That whole paragraph seems clunky. I'd change it to:
"Grafts are considered part of the creature normal body for all purposes. In addition, when the creature is killed there is a 50% chance that the grafts are destroyed." That should be enough to cover all situations.

Monster making beast lord
I wouldn't mention the cosmic horror prestige class at all here, since the feature is written in it's entirety below, mentioning the prestige class is just confusing. Simply including it in the designer's note is enough.

Beastmaster coiled lash
Need clarification for Combat tendril as to whether or not you need any of the advanced manifestation from Meat shearing butcher's scalpel to select the whip as a scalpel, especialy hunter's claw since the whip is a natural weapon.

Excellencies
Conversion chambers and Flesh warping lineage Exhoneration feel more like Mythos than excellencies to me.

ThreadNecro5
2015-06-29, 12:10 PM
A few things I'd like to point out, mostly in the realm of editing for clarity.

Skill ranks: missing an x4 at first level
Class skills: Profession is listed twice
Proficiencies: War razor is not a thing in 3.5, just pathfinder. Probably should replace it with gnomish quickrazor.

Class skills and skill ranks are in all caps when hit die and starting gold aren't. All should be all caps or none should for clear formating.

will correct these.


Should probably include links to the other classes in the designer's notes.

good idea.


Limb shredding graft taker: the phrase "To be suitable for gathering points from a creature must be in a state that it would count as having a body suitable for effects that require one, and it must be composed of solid organic matter (meaning that most elementals and constructs, and some undead are not suitable for harvesting)." seems strange to me, I'd replace it with "To be able to gather points from a creature, it must have a body composed of solid organic matter. Most Elementals, Constructs, some Undead and creatures whose body as been utterly destroyed (By disintegration for example) are not suitable for harvesting."

"A number of graft points are made equal to 1d4 per HD of the creature" I'd change that to "Harvesting provides a number of graft points equal to 1d4 per HD of the creature"

"A creature with graft points is capable of giving its graft points to another creature that can gain them, and can receive graft points from other creatures." I would change to "A creature with a graft points pool..."

"The actual production of a graft is done as per the following method: you select one or more features available to an Ozodrin, and pay for the them and any augments you wish to add as if the points you had to spend were, treating graft points as form points"

"You then may continue to upgrade the graft with an amount of magic items (whose effects are part of the graft) by using the points you have as the GP to spend on the items at a rate of 1 point = 2 GP. You may limit the magic item’s use to 50 charges for only half the normal point cost, or use other such modifiers as per magic item creation in the DMG with GM permission." This whole paragraph is confusing. I would change it to this:
"You may then upgrade the graft by allowing it to emulate one or more magic items, you do so by spending a number of graft points equal to half the market cost of the magic item you wish to emulate."
I would remove the whole 50 charges bits entirely and simply say this "You may, with the GM permission, use the magic item creation rules given in the DMG to state up your own custom magic item which you then emulate normaly"
There is no need to restate the 50 charges limitations since that's already in the magic item creation rules.

this whole section will be integrated, helps smooth out the wording which is something I am not especially good at.


"A graft on a dead creature has a 50% chance of being destroyed on the creature’s death should the body be in a suitable state to be raised, and may not be recovered if the body is destroyed, e.g. a disintegrate spell was used. Should a creature with grafts be resurrected, destroyed grafts are restored. In any other case a Regenerate spell can restore any grafts lost to death if used within 24hrs of returning to life."
That whole paragraph seems clunky. I'd change it to:
"Grafts are considered part of the creature normal body for all purposes. In addition, when the creature is killed there is a 50% chance that the grafts are destroyed." That should be enough to cover all situations.

with this I must say that I prefer the currant wording


Monster making beast lord
I wouldn't mention the cosmic horror prestige class at all here, since the feature is written in it's entirety below, mentioning the prestige class is just confusing. Simply including it in the designer's note is enough.

ok.


Beastmaster coiled lash
Need clarification for Combat tendril as to whether or not you need any of the advanced manifestation from Meat shearing butcher's scalpel to select the whip as a scalpel, especialy hunter's claw since the whip is a natural weapon.

will point out that the advanced manifestation is not needed.


Excellencies
Conversion chambers and Flesh warping lineage Exhoneration feel more like Mythos than excellencies to me

yes, the are the kind of thing that some would be on the fence about, but I decided they work best as Excellencies since they are mostly supplementary abilities that mostly only grant new ways to use prior abilities but that are themselves distinct enough not to be manifestations.

thank you for the suggestions for editing and improving wording.

Yasahiro
2015-07-04, 12:32 PM
What about what I said about Meat Suit? Since to me it feels like it was also meant to be used to make Meat Mecha, but then it should say that the Host can be smaller than the symbiote.

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-05, 07:26 PM
What about what I said about Meat Suit? Since to me it feels like it was also meant to be used to make Meat Mecha, but then it should say that the Host can be smaller than the symbiote.

yes that mistake of mine is being corrected (I had assumed a reply would not be needed on your point as it seemed obvious enough to be something needing corrected).

while I am here I should also ask if there are any suggestions to improve the feature or augment, as well as suggestions on a cost for the augment (probably something based on the points used to create the symbiont I am thinking)?

i think when it is finalized, under the 'Flesh-altering master' manifestation should be an appropriate point to add it in. anyone have any objections to that location?

Yasahiro
2015-07-06, 04:04 PM
yes that mistake of mine is being corrected (I had assumed a reply would not be needed on your point as it seemed obvious enough to be something needing corrected).

while I am here I should also ask if there are any suggestions to improve the feature or augment, as well as suggestions on a cost for the augment (probably something based on the points used to create the symbiont I am thinking)?

i think when it is finalized, under the 'Flesh-altering master' manifestation should be an appropriate point to add it in. anyone have any objections to that location?

Yeah.

Pro tip. Put your mythos in each section in Alphabetical order, as all mythos do. It makes it easy to find such things and looks way neater. I don't have any suggestions for the cost, though... It will be hard thing to choose

Necroticplague
2015-07-06, 08:19 PM
Reading this class, when I was possessed by several useful sounding ideas. Now just posting them here to see what anyone else thinks of them.

1.Created creatures with a single kreikiri level themselves. Since graft points are transferable, you can use these guys to to get around on the annoying time it takes to viviesct by having them cut it up for you while you adventure. Think of them like a meaty equivalent to the homonculus artificers use.

2.Created warlocks with the symbiont subtype. Symbionts share any SLA with you that they use on themselves, and have their own actions. Thus, you can have it pick up some of those '24-hour buff' invocations and have it use its actions to keep it up in case of dispels. DFA or SLA Mutations can also be used for more variety. Plus, free lasers.

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-08, 05:59 PM
i'm thinking for the Meat Suit augment making its cost around 50% of the Creature's (and potentially an additional cost per HD of the Creature due to the host being able to benefit from the Creatures BAB and HP).

as for the alphabetizing of the mythos I shall do that after my holiday, which begins in a few days. until I return this is likely the last time I will check in. I will leave a comment to mark my return.

also in reply to Necroticplague, those are a couple of nice ideas, I did not know of the one about symbionts sharing SLA's with heir host, certainly a nice trick to remember about.

EdroGrimshell
2015-07-08, 08:50 PM
also in reply to Necroticplague, those are a couple of nice ideas, I did not know of the one about symbionts sharing SLA's with heir host, certainly a nice trick to remember about.

Actually they don't, to my understanding. You can share spells with your symbiont, not the other way around AFAIK.

Necroticplague
2015-07-08, 08:57 PM
Actually they don't, to my understanding. You can share spells with your symbiont, not the other way around AFAIK.

Maybe the Symbiont subtype was updated, but the source I was reading (Fiend Folio) has it as the following:

Share Spells (Su):
Any spell the host creature casts on itself automatically also affects the symbiont. Additionally,the host may cast a spell with a target of “You” on the symbiont instead of on itself. Likewise, a symbiont can choose to have any spell or spell-like ability it uses on itself also affect the host creature, and may cast a spell with a target of“You” on its host instead of on itself. The host and symbiont can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the host or symbiont’s type. Spells targeted on the host by another spellcaster do not affect the symbiont,and vice versa.
Bolded for emphasis.

EdroGrimshell
2015-07-08, 10:39 PM
Maybe the Symbiont subtype was updated, but the source I was reading (Fiend Folio) has it as the following:

Bolded for emphasis.
Huh, missed that in the Eberron books. Must be because most canon symbionts have their spells and spell-like abilities suppressed while attached to a host.

EdroGrimshell
2015-07-19, 11:51 AM
I have a question, for the created creature, how does making it larger or smaller work? I've been looking and there's nothing about making a creature larger or smaller on the Monster-Making Beast-Lord mythos.

Necroticplague
2015-07-19, 12:09 PM
I have a question, for the created creature, how does making it larger or smaller work? I've been looking and there's nothing about making a creature larger or smaller on the Monster-Making Beast-Lord mythos.

Just use the Ozodrins size-changing augments for its features, and give it Engorged/Condensed flesh for its body overall.

EdroGrimshell
2015-07-19, 12:28 PM
Just use the Ozodrins size-changing augments for its features, and give it Engorged/Condensed flesh for its body overall.

Thanks, wouldn't have thought to look at the Flesh features for that.

Might need to be added as a note so it's not missed.

Quarian Rex
2015-07-19, 04:49 PM
Just remember that the size changes due to the Flesh feature do not provide any modification to the creatures' stats. Those have to be paid for seperately.

Necroticplague
2015-07-21, 10:50 PM
Um, for being a disease, Necrotic Meat-Mutation seems awfully beneficial, especially for a kreikiri who infect themselves. In exchange for some fluff (they were probably gonna have anyway), and damaging a dumpstat, you gain the following:
5 feet of reach
Bonus to physical stats.
Bonus to intimidate
ability to maximize graft point gains (and do it faster than normal for medium or smaller creatures)
Bite attack (extra natural weapon)

Yasahiro
2015-07-22, 06:47 AM
I think making flesh crafting prodigy be what allows access to a graft pool without the Graft Mythos is unnecessary. Excellencies can only be taken by the specific Mythos class that gains them but access to other Mythos can be gained through feats. So how about turning it into a feat instead so non-Mythos characters and created creatures can collect graft points for Kreikiri?

Quarian Rex
2015-07-22, 11:22 AM
I think making flesh crafting prodigy be what allows access to a graft pool without the Graft Mythos is unnecessary. Excellencies can only be taken by the specific Mythos class that gains them but access to other Mythos can be gained through feats. So how about turning it into a feat instead so non-Mythos characters and created creatures can collect graft points for Kreikiri?

Already been discussed. See the second paragraph of this post...

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19188858&postcount=45

or go back to page 2 and check the posts around it. Generally, the thinking was that Graft point collection is a key feature of the class and should not be cheaply accessible to everyone. It can already be added to a created creature through Transient Skill by adding a level of Kreikiri so the option is already there. Making it as cheap as a feat or an augment would probably open up too much abuse.

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-22, 04:25 PM
ok, i'm back. by the time anyone reads this I should have alphabetized the exceptional mythos.

in reply to EdroGrimshel on changing a creatures size:
good idea, I will add a note to point people to the flesh feature.

in reply to Necroticplague on Necrotic Meat-Mutation:
the kreikiri was supposed to be immune to the disease (I forgot the wording), indeed I will probably get around to adding blanket immunity to all kreikiri, as they have already masted their flesh and how to change it, and so should be immune tot the disease.

as to the many positive sides to the disease, those are intended, to the infected the disease is Honorable body horror, while to the 'classical' kreikiri mental image I have the 'disease' is just one more way of making the people better and into something more.

sidenote:
an idea I just had, along with the option to retain the persons mind when they become a Creature, what if you could also form an amalgamation of their mind and that of any/all of the beings they have devoured over the course of their infection, or leave the separate minds in one body with the controller occasionally swapping around.

I could imagine an empire-building kreikiri trying to manipulate events so that they place the mind of a loyal agent within that of an enemy. or a very 'blue-and-orange' chaotic good kreikiri 'uniting' people into a single Creature to 'bring them together'
sidenote over

as another point I have finally gotten around to adding creature type costs to Monster-Making Beast-Lord.

Necroticplague
2015-07-22, 04:42 PM
as to the many positive sides to the disease, those are intended, to the infected the disease is Honorable body horror, while to the 'classical' kreikiri mental image I have the 'disease' is just one more way of making the people better and into something more.

Got it. The way it's spread just seemed to imply that it had some kind of offensive purpose, when the only thing about that really is offensive is the Dead Men Tell No Secrets but Those of Flesh manifestation.

Yasahiro
2015-07-22, 06:01 PM
So for clarification,

Kreikiri created creatures can just immediately get level of Kreikiri through transient Skill, no need to leave em and come back for em.

Also, can you provide the cost of Meat suit? I am kind of eager to use it in campaign I am taking part in.

Also, I am all up for many minds in one body.

And one more thing. Can Kreikiri choose to not damage or stun people who try to telepathy him when he has Cry of the consumed? Or is it non-turntable off?

Also, in Cry of the Consumed, these additional effects should just be listed as a manifestation, like all manifestations, with add on that it is received automatically upon taking the power stealing Mythos. Would look better, but you would need to name that manifestation somehow...

And monster making Mythos has screwed up formatting. The size thing, I mean.

Edit: as for the costs of different types... I think you might have priced them wrong. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). Check on the adding CR part. More powerful Type HD require less HD to increase the CR

Edit: So Kreikiri is unaffected by the Necrotic Meat disease? Also, at some points you mention ability damage but you said that the creatures receive charisma drain instead, so what the hell?

Necroticplague
2015-07-24, 12:58 PM
You made a mistake while alphabetizing the Exceptional muthos. You moved Beastmasters Coiled Lash into the right spot, but gave it the effects of meat-shearing butchers scalpel (meanwhile, meat-shearing butchers scalpel was moved properly, so you now have two mythose that do the same thing, except one is splintered).

Edit:Thanks to the wonder of tabs, I had one version of the page with the right text open. Spoiling it in case you lost it.
Perquisite: -
Why is it that the kyniteros’s independent shards are so often out of your control? Why do they not wish unity? And with this problem this new-found ability gives the solution.

This Mythos grants several benefits. First, this grants you the ability to deal lethal damage with a whip and allows you to use one to damage creatures even when they possess an amour bonus or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher, cease to provoke attacks of opportunity when attacking with a whip and you now threaten the area within your reach when armed with a whip.

Additionally you gain an internal organic whip in one of your arms (faintly visible within a half-transparent sack or as a writhing tendril under your skin) that may be extended or retracted as a swift action. When you have this whip extended you may not use that hand for any other purpose than using the whip (but you do not drop any item in that hand).

While the whip is extended you are counted as having a masterwork tool for the Handle Animal skill. The whip is considered a primary natural attack in all respects apart from using the abilities of a whip weapon, sized for a creature of your size category, and being able to make iterative attacks as per a manufactured weapon.

Should the arm the whip is attached to be removed and later replaced with a different limb (likely with a graft), it mutates over an hour to regrow the whip.

Advanced Manifestations:
Beast Mastering Hand
You gain Animal Affinity as a bonus feat. In addition by spending a full round action you may attempt to command any creature with an intelligence of 1, 2 or – (mindless creatures gain a +2 bonus on the save) within reach of your whip. The target creature takes a will save. Should they fail, you then make a handle animal check with a DC of 10 + the target’s HD.

The creature becomes under your control and will attempt to follow your commands (as per a Dominate Animal spell) for a number of minutes equal to how much you exceeded the DC of the result of the Handle Animal check (or only one round should you have rolled equal to the DC), but after this the target will attempt to flee or attack you or the creatures around it, depending on the situation it is in and what its nature would dictate. The creature will not follow suicidal or obviously dangerous orders, but may be inclined to attack others.

Should the creature leave the reach of your whip for two minutes the creature immediately becomes uncontrolled. Additionally should you take hostile action towards the creature (apart from using his manifestation), or have it reduced below 50% HP you must pass a DC 20 +animals CR Handle Animal check or have it immediate become uncontrolled.

You may extend the duration the animal remains influenced by you by re-using this manifestation on the animal.


Combat Tendril
You treat the whip as if it was one size large larger for damage purposes (now dealing 1d4 damage for a medium Kreikiri), its reach increases by +5ft, and finally it may be used as an additional limb, unable to be replaced with a graft or to wield a weapon (essentially meaning it can now grab and manipulate objects as if it was a hand). Finally you may now select this whip as your selected weapon with the ‘Meat-Shearing Butchers-Scalpel’ Mythos without need for any of its manifestations.

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-26, 03:06 PM
ok, so i'm about to add the alphabetized excellencies.

and to reply to those who commented:

Kreikiri created creatures can just immediately get level of Kreikiri through transient Skill, no need to leave em and come back for em.

yes you can do that.


Also, can you provide the cost of Meat suit? I am kind of eager to use it in campaign I am taking part in.

the problem is I still am yet to come to a good idea for the cost, if you don't mind play-testing the idea try... lets say 40% of the creatures total cost. if you use it tell me if it is balanced please.


Also, I am all up for many minds in one body.

good to hear. will begin working on the idea.


And one more thing. Can Kreikiri choose to not damage or stun people who try to telepathy him when he has Cry of the consumed? Or is it non-turntable off?

it does not turn of. the simplest way to think about it is that the person making contact with their mind has accidentally came across a region they would rather not contact, its like a 'once you see it, you cannot unsee it' type of thing. also I never announced a small change to it that was still a a partial holdover from an outdated early draft and was unbalanced.


Also, in Cry of the Consumed, these additional effects should just be listed as a manifestation, like all manifestations, with add on that it is received automatically upon taking the power stealing Mythos. Would look better, but you would need to name that manifestation somehow...

will sort it with this formatting.


And monster making Mythos has screwed up formatting. The size thing, I mean.

thank you for pointing this out.


Edit: as for the costs of different types... I think you might have priced them wrong. Here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/improvingMonsters.htm). Check on the adding CR part. More powerful Type HD require less HD to increase the CR

the simplest reply to this is that it's less I priced them wrong, but rather I priced them by arbitrary personal feeling on relative power level. also I have the same costs for the animal companion creating mythos, none asked for a change, it's been like that for a long enough time that someone would if it was needed, and so I figured it is fine.


Edit: So Kreikiri is unaffected by the Necrotic Meat disease? Also, at some points you mention ability damage but you said that the creatures receive charisma drain instead, so what the hell?

that is me messing up language from force of habit when typing out a disease, as muscle memory believes itself correct in the writing of 'ability damage' instead of 'ability drain'. I will correct this.

to reply to NecroticPlague

You made a mistake while alphabetizing the Exceptional muthos. You moved Beastmasters Coiled Lash into the right spot, but gave it the effects of meat-shearing butchers scalpel (meanwhile, meat-shearing butchers scalpel was moved properly, so you now have two mythos that do the same thing, except one is splintered).

Edit:Thanks to the wonder of tabs, I had one version of the page with the right text open. Spoiling it in case you lost it

thank you for pointing this out, it was a copy/paste error.

Yasahiro
2015-07-28, 08:45 PM
If a Kreikiri has Unbound creation manifestation of Necrotic Meat Mutation, does it bypass their own immunity to the disease? What about affecting other Kreikiris?

Can the Kreikiri choose to not infect a person, perhaps immunize them in a special way or something? I mean, I would rather my intelligent generals do not have to worry about turning into ravenous diseased monsters because they were on my flesh covered terrain, if I have that manifestation that allows it to spread through air. The disease, I mean.

And I just noticed. So until a Kreikiri gets the Shintai, their flesh nodes remain until destroyed and Kreikiri can move. But if Kreikiri with Shintai wants to move, uprooting themselves, unless they replant then the flesh nodes and material will die from in curable damage due to Kreikiri being uprooted? That kind of weakens the flesh.

So if a Kreikiri has grafts or such and gets Shintai, it basically counts as if they had that specific graft or symbiont anywhere their flesh is, especially the symbiont if it connects to other people somehow?

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-29, 03:52 PM
If a Kreikiri has Unbound creation manifestation of Necrotic Meat Mutation, does it bypass their own immunity to the disease? What about affecting other Kreikiris?

it does not bypass their immunity or that of others with the class.


Can the Kreikiri choose to not infect a person, perhaps immunize them in a special way or something? I mean, I would rather my intelligent generals do not have to worry about turning into ravenous diseased monsters because they were on my flesh covered terrain, if I have that manifestation that allows it to spread through air. The disease, I mean.

I have written a second version of the mythos below that accommodates this situation.


And I just noticed. So until a Kreikiri gets the Shintai, their flesh nodes remain until destroyed and Kreikiri can move. But if Kreikiri with Shintai wants to move, uprooting themselves, unless they replant then the flesh nodes and material will die from in curable damage due to Kreikiri being uprooted? That kind of weakens the flesh.

how so? you should rarely be uprooted anyway, it is intended as an emergency tactic or when you really need to be somewhere in the flesh. the fact that you are functionally wherever the fleshy material is, and as the material grows, you can essentially gain a reach equivalent to the size of the planet given time, or at least a landmass of some nature. if you need to relocate just replant every half an hour or so.


So if a Kreikiri has grafts or such and gets Shintai, it basically counts as if they had that specific graft or symbiont anywhere their flesh is, especially the symbiont if it connects to other people somehow?

yes the functionally Kreikiri is essentially wherever the flesh is. but how would a symbiont be attached to two people?

also as a note to everyone I will be organizing the fantastic mythos in a few days, and have version 2.0 of Necrotic meat-mutation. please offer review. the parts in italics are new and the manifestations are left out (apart from a new one).

Necrotic meat-mutation
Perquisite: Monster-making beast-lord

Your body becomes host to a mutational disease. This disease is spread through your body fluids and though any natural attack you possess, using the mechanics listed below:
It is a disease who’s save DC as is normal for mythos-based effects. Once a creature is infected, the disease only forces the first fortitude save after 3d4 days, with further saves occurring only 1/month. The effects of the disease on a failed save are 1d2 charisma drain.

The visible symptoms of the disease are that the victim’s entire body begins going through temporary spontaneous mutations, at first only things like hair colour or skin texture may be effected, but later entire vestigial limbs may develop and retract, their limbs develop new joints, and eventually the infected individual becomes a horrifying sight of jumbled, ever-shifting flesh and erupting organs, looking almost as if a swarm of writhing insects has burrowed beneath their skin. Despite the effects on someone’s looks, and likely their mental state, a canny individual can make use of their situation. Once a creature has took five points of charisma damage from the disease they increase their natural reach by 5ft, for every three points of such damage they take they increase all their physical statistics by one point, and they gain a bonus on intimidate checks equal to the amount of charisma drain they have taken.

Unfortunately (for the victim anyway) however the infected who reach an advanced stage of infection, having a charisma of 7 or lower and after a minimum of a month infected, develop an unending compulsive hunger, gaining a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The infected creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller. After eating the creature the infected individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should to have harvested the corpse for graft points, taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such, with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well). Once the creature has consumed point’s equal to the amount of charisma drain they possess X10 they regain a point of charisma drain and cease their hunger until they need to make a save for the disease again.

This continues until the creature has been infected for 3d10 years or their charisma becomes zero, at which time the true effects of the disease become apparent upon the victim slipping into a coma and begins to mutate over a minute. At this time you immediately become aware of this creature and subsequently become aware of their location and of what the creature has seen in the past minute. You may then immediately create a creature, as per ‘Monster-making beast-lord’, without having to pay the 15 points to construct the creatures body, and using the amount of graft points the creature has (and only that creature, not any of yours) combined with what they would grant should you harvest them but with the dice rolled maximised. This Creature is treated as one you created in all ways and for resurrection purposes the creature who was infected (whose body became the new creature) is treated as if their body was raised as an undead creature for spell effects. When creating a creature due to this disease you must spend at least half the graft points available. Any unused points are granted to the Kreikiri the disease originated from.

As an unusual quirk of the disease Kreikiri and creatures that you would prefer to remain uninfected (this ability is subconscious in nature ad so you do not have voluntary control over it) are given complete blanket immunity to the disease, even with the ‘Unbound creation’ manifestation.

Creatures created from the infected bodies are considered allies to each other, likely engaging in pack tactics if of animal level intelligence, and will cooperate to greater degrees if smarter. The Creatures become hostile to all other creatures in a manner similar to those altered with ‘Storm-of-Cuts life Altering Flurry’ and you may "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. Unlike such altered creatures however they by default are always neutral to you and other Kreikiri.

Upon transformation into a Creature you may choose of the infected creature may retain their original mind and memories if you desire them to, but in such cases the creatures have a 50% chance to not gain the hostility to non-Creatures and have their disposition toward the Kreikiri remain unchanged. In all such cases the creature retains their mind also retains a number of feats they still qualify for equal to their highest mental ability score modifier.

Once the disease is cured any charisma drain the infected creature took becomes charisma damage and can be healed normally and any graft points the creature accrued are lost and granted to the Kreikiri.

Advanced manifestations:
Neural Echoes

Every time an infected creature consumes another creature for graft points it retains a portion of that creatures mind, and when the infected becomes a Created Creature you may choose for these portions of consumed minds to be worked into the final construction (you may specifically choose which minds if any are used), allowing you to choose between a composite mind or and diffused mind.

Composite Mind
A composite mind is a fusion of the numerous minds. It causes the creature to gain a +1 bonus to any mental ability score OR a +1 bonus on any skill check (with both effects able to stack with themselves) per additional mind beyond the original. Additionally the feats the Creature retains may be chosen from any of those known by the composite minds. The disposition and opinion of the resulting creature would tend towards a middle ground between all minds.

Diffused Mind
A diffused mind is a creature that has several minds in its one Body. Each struggle with the others for control and at any time may vie for dominance. Each mind has an Ego score similar to that of an intelligent magic item equal to their HD + their charisma modifier. When vying for control the dominant mind is forced to take a will save with a DC equal to the ego of the mind wanting dominance. Each such mind has its own separate retained feats, and all minds gain a +1 bonus on search, spot, and listen checks per two other minds not in control.

Yasahiro
2015-07-30, 06:53 AM
Rather, if my symbiont has its own attack or is a meat suit, does it gain range from the Shintai?

And... Huh. Since uprooting only takes a minute, one could plant themselves, uproot, travel and repeat after one hour.

The thing is that until Exalted Mythos. A Kreikiri can't be linked to a senses of creature so sending an "avatar" of sorts out in the field is... Hard. Imagine how Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 travelled from planet to planet... Hm.

There is always option of using puppet feature to interact with people.

This Shintai is the least warping Shintai of all. It does not affect mind much beyond wanting to affect more creatures and spread, but if a character somehow was content with having a specific area belonging to them... Wait, no. Mythos might force him to continue...

Question regarding creeping flesh fortress. Can the Kreikiri not spread it, have it remain where it is?

... Friendly neighborhood Mythic Fleshtificer, heh

ThreadNecro5
2015-07-31, 06:49 PM
Rather, if my symbiont has its own attack or is a meat suit, does it gain range from the Shintai?

I am not sure weather to allow this to effect the symbiont. on one hand they symbiont remains attached to you, on the other 'you' is literally everywhere in a hopefully significant area. it is something to be thought over and your opinion is appreciated.


And... Huh. Since uprooting only takes a minute, one could plant themselves, uproot, travel and repeat after one hour.

indeed.


The thing is that until Exalted Mythos. A Kreikiri can't be linked to a senses of creature so sending an "avatar" of sorts out in the field is... Hard. Imagine how Kerrigan in Starcraft 2 travelled from planet to planet... Hm.

There is always option of using puppet feature to interact with people.

also as you are functionally anywhere the flesh is you can technically talk through it. now that I think amount it though that makes the 'Always watching' manifestation of Creeping flesh-fortress kind of useless as you can also see anywhere but I suppose I can add wording to specify you still need spot checks and such unless you have the manifestation. and now back on topic


This Shintai is the least warping Shintai of all. It does not affect mind much beyond wanting to affect more creatures and spread, but if a character somehow was content with having a specific area belonging to them... Wait, no. Mythos might force him to continue...

I see what you mean, I suppose was was assuming by this point the player would roleplay the character be practically already as I imaged they should be given the tone of the other mythos (not to mention just to qualify for the shintai requires a mythos that eventually coats the planet in a mass of flesh you control, they should know what they are getting into by now).

maybe I could add a mental imperative to grow, making any creature who attempts to restrict your growth an immediate enemy of yours, while also forcing you to see to it that you generate as many graft points as possible, toss around grafts onto creatures, and use other such flesh altering mythos you have.


Question regarding creeping flesh fortress. Can the Kreikiri not spread it, have it remain where it is?

... Friendly neighborhood Mythic Fleshtificer, heh

no, the flesh must grow, it does not turn off. the Kreikiri could still build houses out of the flesh for displaced villagers however. it would be fun to imagine a Kreikri who eliminates a city's slums and houses the poor and homeless is buildings of living flesh and bone in a random and unwanted act of kindness. especially if they also decide to give everyone a free arm or a gland that lets them breathe fire during the process as they will be in town for a while.

a Kreikiri's idea of Friendly or helping is generally going to be very alien. for reference look what the top left banner character does as helping.

also will be posing the alphabetized fantastic mythos tomorrow. I have left it a bit late what with also prepping for a play by post game and designing a custom campaign setting for home games.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-01, 09:41 PM
I've had some thoughts about the remaining Legendary Mythos rattling around in my head for months but haven't had time to sit down and get them written down (been trying to cobble together a campaign using two different immortals rules to get a low level Highlander effect). Now that I see you're thinking about modifying Necrotic meat-mutation it seems like a good time to get this out.



Kreikiri Legendary mythos
Creeping flesh-fortress {Whole}


This is a big one and gave me trouble for quite some time. It is one of those rare abilities that somehow manages to be useless and OP at the same time. Useless because of the long set-up times making it unuseable outside of extended base building, and OP because of the long-term consequences of continued growth/planetary terraforming.

Another difficulty is clarity. You are essentially giving the player a base building lego set made of Meat Moss (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MeatMoss) but there are a lot of peices that don't seem to fit right. Don't get me wrong, I bloody love this ability and I can't wait to use it in a game. There are just some things that need to be done.

The first thing is to better define the Flesh Node/Meat Moss (I'm going to call it that for now because I'm going to be referring to it a lot, but you should think of an actual name for it), its capabilities, how it interacts with the world during expansion, and you need to set limits on that expansion. A DM won't let this in if he thinks that he'll have to recolour half of the map to look like intestines after prolonged downtime/a time travel jaunt to the future.

The expansion rate is the biggest problem. This is the heart of the useless/OP dilema. You need simpler math as well so when a PC starts dropping these all over an area no-one needs to consult Wolfram/Alpha to figure out the coverage after a week. I suggest a spread rate of 5' per hour out to 50', then slowing to 5' per day up to 100', then growth stops. This growth should not be a factor of time but of distance to the Node. For example, once the full 100' radius is covered then destruction of a 5' patch of Meat Moss 20' from the Node would be regrown in one hour, while a destroyed patch 70' away would take a day to naturally recover. When concentrating to expand growth within 50' of a Node the growth occurs in the same minute as the concentration. When influencing growth between 55' and 100' of a node each minutes worth of concetration takes one hour to take effect (20 minutes of concentrating would require 20 hours for the changes to be finished). One cannot influence the growth of the Meat Moss further than 100' from a Node.

The Kreikiri can now (relatively) quickly construct safe rooms, outposts, prison cages, etc. while adventuring without havng to stall the party for a week, and the DM no longer has to worry about the world accidentally becoming a single biome hamburger planet (at least not without the Kreikiri having to work at it).

Since this change willl mean that more Flesh Nodes will be needed you should drop the price to 20 graft points. The Flesh Nodes themselves need a little more detail as well. Say that they are Small Constructs (made of flesh) that have 10hp/Kreikiri level (plus Construct bonus hp based on size, default of 10) that do not have any ability scores (having the Mindless trait due to no Int. score), share the Kreikiri's saves, are considered to have HD equal to your Kreikiri level for any effect that requires it, cannot be moved from where it was placed (immune to being Bull-Rushed, Dragged, etc., but not to offensive Teleportation), and cannot be harvested for Graft Points (avoiding exploitation due to high HD). This covers a lot of the missing info on how Flesh Nodes interact with spells and abilities and will be useful later. You should also allow the Kreikiri to voluntarily limit Meat Moss growth, allowing things like, "Fill this room", and , "Don't go up any walls".

The Meat Moss, and its behaviour, needs to be expanded upon as well. In Infectious presence you imply that the Moss is edible but never expand on it. How about every 5'x5' surface of Meat Moss is capable of providing enough scavengable... bits (best not to think too hard about exactly what...) to provide sustenance to a single Medium sized creature for one day. A single patch can sustain double the number of creatures for each size they are below Medium. Double the number of patches for each size greater than Medium. Now those adventuring safe rooms can feed the party as well (yay!). Normally expanding Meat Moss should cover any solid horizontal or vertical surface (floors, walls, ceilings, bottoms of lakes, etc.) but not creatures or objects, instead growing underneath them. This resolves any questions about whether loot and sleeping/comatose creatures get buried.

Maintainance of the Meat Moss needs to be addressed as well. I'd say that each 5'x5' patch can recover hp at the rate of 1/hour and that so long as there is an unbroken line of Meat Moss between a patch and any Node, no matter the distance, the Moss will not decay.

Also, downgrade the Blindsight on the Meat Moss to Blindsense. Blindsight is one of the top tier sensory abilities in the game, should not be given away so easily, and leads to cheesy omniscience that DMs become bitter about. And Blindsense works so much better thematically. Who are the intruders? No idea yet, but you can feel exactly where thay are. I'll come back to this in a minute.



You can influence the material by spending a minute in concentration and choosing one of the following options:

• The material may be made thickener or thinner by one inch.

• The area may grow 1ft in a direction of your choice, including straight up, in which case a small inch thick wall begins to form that can be thickened with additional applications of this option, or even across open spaces.

This needs to be clarified and loosened up a bit. Specify that a single 5x5 patch can only be thickened up to 60 inches, resulting in a solid block of Meat Moss. Allow the extra inch of Moss to be shapable to anything of equivalent volume or less as long as it fits in a 5x5x5' cube. A single inch of shaped Moss would be enough to form a small pillar, sturdy ladder, immobile chair, etc. Additional inches spent on the feature would just improve its relative hardiness. This would essentially merge these two options and provide a greater range of possibilities.



• May harden the material, which increases its HP/inch to 30 and its hardness becomes 10, but prevents further growth from that point. Each use of this affects the most external one-inch layer of the material on that square. Reversing this is preformed identically to originally applying this effect. This hardened material may be worked like metal and often resembles a carapace of some creature, bone, or similar form.

I think this should affect everthing in a 5' cube, none of this external one inch nonsense. Saying that the change prevents further growth is completely undermined when you can just leave an inch wide layer to keep spreading. The hardened version should no longer be able to feed creatures. The change should be permanent. Once you stop the growth and calcify/fossilize/whatever it there should be no backsies. This adds an interesting strategic element that I think is missing. Also, add the option to perform this option on a Flesh Node, doubling the hp and increasing hardness to 15, but the node is no longer considered to be supporting the Meat Moss. This will be an interesting option shortly.

Similar to the hardening option there should be an option to make the Moss into a transparent membrane. Same stats as Moss but no further growth and cannot be used for sustenance.



• May alter a 5ft area to contain a simple mechanism that allows for the opening or closing of a gap in the material. Possible uses include creating doors, chests, windows, ect. These may only be opened or closed by you and those you choose to allow. Doing so is a mental action that uses up a swift action.

Tis all good.



Advanced manifestations:
Sentinels

This is where I think the entire ability can be revolutionized. When I first saw the Guardian, Nest, and Cyst, I cannot tell you how underwhelmed I was. For something only available at level 14 and above I could not see how such things could even be useful in anything close to a level appropriate encounter. At that level a Kreikiri's well engineered semi-sentient mobile bidet is more of a threat than all three combined. And this is really the problem. The Kreikiri has spent his entire career creating interesting monsters, and when he can finally turn his very environment into a monster he is stuck with a few weak pre-gen options. That is such a missed opportunity.

Combine this with Tentacle node and make it customizable. Allow the Kreikiri to spend Graft Points on the Flesh Node during creation (or after as another full-round action) as if it were a creature but for 1/5th the cost (Creature creation for Graft costs) and completely remove the previous limits on growth time and frequency. Creature type stays Construct, no cost for the torso (this is an upgrade of the Flesh Node, not a ground-up recreation), and the Advanced Form, Transient Skill, and Cascade of Life options are not available. Ability scores are normal as per created creature and the Node should share the BAB of the Kreikiri. Change in size alters bonus hp from Construct as per normal. Any feature added that provides a movement rate of any kind does not provide said movement, but can still use any other capabilities or be purely decorative. When the Kreikiri uses Blindsense on the Meat Moss he also has access to any sensory organs on any of the Flesh Nodes. This provides Interesting options for the player, almost allowing for a tower defense mini-game with the DM. Also, the Flesh Nodes sharing so many of their characteristics with the Kreikiri offers a nice bit of foreshadowing of Living-world shintai.

This also provides the DM with some interesting possibilities as well. Now, instead of complete omniscience within his territory (through Blindsight) the Kreikiri now has discrete points of awareness. Discrete points that can be destroyed/bypassed. This leads to ingenuity on both sides of the table.

Inteligent Nodes are an interesting consideration. Besides allowing subterfuge (with the Hidden Power augment and such) you could allow them to direct Meat Moss growth. How about allowing them to influence the growth through concentration as the Kreikiri does but only affecting one 5' patch of Moss within their range of influence per Int bonus (instead of one per Kreikiri level)? You could even have them independantly directing people via Everywhere at once, should the Kreikiri have it (see later).



Uneven footing

This is good as is.



Everywhere at once

Add the limitation that the Kreikiri needs to be within 5' of a Flesh Node to use this manifestation and can transport to any other Flesh Node that he has created so long as there is room for him next to it. This changes things from DM aggravating unlimited teleportation dickery to strategically unlimited teleportation, something that can actually be delt with in interesting ways.

Perhaps add the ability to allow others to move through the Flesh Nodes as well so long as the Kreikiri is at the entrance Node 'holding the door open' for them. Of course, he could always send them to different Nodes...



Resistant node

Is good.



Always watching

Almost a must have ability. Almost. Just update to new sensory options above.



Extrude flesh

Just clarify to destroy all material in a 5' cube, providing 2 Graft Points per inch of thickness.



Dominion of air

This just needs more. Right now it's just blah. An extra 5' on the Blindsight (hopefully Blindsense)? Make that Blindsense up to 50' from the surface of the Meat Moss. Nothing too crazy but enough to catch low flyers and people trying to be sneaky/clever. Exhaustion after 5 hours? Make that after 1 min. This is sapping their breath, no reason to make it take forever. Having air particles spread at 5' per week? That is crazytalk. Have it immediately be produced out to 50' from any Meat Moss. Now it is a strategic deterrent that doesn't take years to set up.



Dominion of water

I've always found the first paragraph of this ability to be contradictory and unnecessary. There was nothing in the previous description of the Meat Moss suggesting that water is any kind of impairment to its spread so no reason to harp on that now. You could always spread the Moss over water (just like you could spread it over a chasm) by concentrating and influencing it to spread that way. Focus on what this ability actually adds. How about extending Blindsense through all water directly above or below the Meat Moss? Useful if you want to keep track of what the Aboleths are up to.

Skip the turning water into Meat Moss. Water is no real barrier to Moss growth and this only seems like an exploit waiting to happen for cheap Moss. The opposite is still interesting. Converting Meat Moss into water, but only in full 5' cubes is interesting. That is a lot of Moss that needs to be built up for a free standing water supply but I like it.

The Fast Healing 1 for 1 round is great. Saying that each sip is a gallon? That is not the physics. Saying that three sips empties 5 cubic feet of water? Physics asplodes. Get rid of all that. At 14th level having creatures spend their entire round drinking to recover 1hp is balance enough. Say that the water is replenished by the surrounding Meat Moss and that it loses its healing properties when stored. Done.



Infectious presence

Good as is.




Necrotic meat-mutation

Amazingly good idea but the execution is one that falls into the OP/useless category. OP because the way you have the disease set up is the worst nightmare of the CDC and a surefire Apocalypse scenario. Extremely long incubation times with minimal symptoms is exactly how I design doom viruses in Plague Inc. Once you have Outbreak, infecting a single popular hooker in a port town will ensure the extinction of the world within a year. That is messed up. And OP.

Why is it useless then? Because unless you want to put a death-clock on the DMs campaign world you will never actually see the effects of this ability in the game. It takes soooo... loooong... for this disease to do anything that it is essentially useless. And that is boring.

How does one fix this? Speed the puppy up. Lower the incubation period to 1d4 days. Upon failing the first save they immediately gain a bite attack with the Hidden Power augment and the unending hunger. Saves have to be made against the disease every day but if the victim can consume a number of Graft Points in a day equal to or greater than half their Charisma score then they don't have to make the save for a number of days equal to their Con bonus (min 1) and can suppress any changes in appearance. Once their Charisma drops to 8 or lower they cannot suppress the changes in their appearance and lose any Hidden Power augments they may have. This way victims are forced to do something. This also opens up a lot of possibilities. So long as a victim can afford to eat a half-dozen chickens every day or so they can maintain their condition. Don't have the money for that? Neighborhood dogs, cats, and hobos need to watch out. Manufacturing a canabalistic Jack the Ripper can be a useful distraction for the City Watch.



As an unusual quirk of the disease Kreikiri and creatures that you would prefer to remain uninfected (this ability is subconscious in nature ad so you do not have voluntary control over it) are given complete blanket immunity to the disease, even with the ‘Unbound creation’ manifestation.

This seems way too hand-wavy and unjustified. Just make it so that the Kreikiri, created creatures, and those who bear a Kreikiri graft are immune to the disease. It makes sense that the disease would only seek to change the unchanged, and removes the possibility of a diseased creature getting re-infected after their death-metamorphosis.

The part about pack tactics and handling is all good.



Upon transformation into a Creature you may choose of the infected creature may retain their original mind and memories if you desire them to, but in such cases the creatures have a 50% chance to not gain the hostility to non-Creatures and have their disposition toward the Kreikiri remain unchanged. In all such cases the creature retains their mind also retains a number of feats they still qualify for equal to their highest mental ability score modifier.

This is much like the first version of Man-is-Monster Restoration (retaining original mind and memories implies skills, class levels, spellcasting, etc.). It leaves so many unresolved issues that I would just scrap the approach altogether. In fact, if you want to retain the mind just allow a rebuild as if using Man-is-Monster Restoration but without the half prce discount.



Advanced manifestations:
Virulent plague

Solid upgrade.



Outbreak

This is a defining ability of this Mythos. The only suggestion I have is providing an option to remove its transmissable properties and/or add them as a full-round action or something. Sparking off the apocalypse should be a deliberate act and a Kreikiri should maintain the ability to use this on a more focused level.



Dead men tell no secrets but those of flesh

I like what you're doing here but the damage is just pitiful. How about 1d6/HD of the dying creature within a range of the creatures reach +5ft? You still don't have to worry about commoners exploding but when an infected dragon goes boom you should be scared. You should also note that these thrashing limbs are considered natural attacks for all purposes (including Outbreak).



Nightmarish genesis

Useful buff for combat applications.



Unbound creation

Another solid buff.



Neural Echoes
Composite Mind

This is way too potent a buff considering the potentially vast number of creatures that could be consumed before a victim falls to the disease. How about each consumed creature provides a cumulative +1 on a special Bardic Knowledge check on anything the consumed may have known (up to a max of their HD)? Cumulative knowledge without the triple digit Int scores and epic level skill checks.



Diffused Mind

This has some problems, primarily revolving aroung the need to retain the stat block of every creature and character that has ever been consumed. That is a possibly very large number. And then that very large number starts making ego checks. I can't think of any suggestions at the moment but this is problematic.

There are two other manifestations that I would like to suggest. One would allow you to tailor the disease to affect only a single creature type or subtype with the same restriction as a Rangers' Favored Enemy (Pustulent Genocide?). Perhaps taking 24hrs to change the target or make it generalized again.

The other would be a manifestation that allows you to turn off the disease so that you can interact with the world in a more normal way if you so choose. I don't think such a thing should be part of the base ability but I think that it should be an available option.




Living-world shintai

I like this ability a lot. Some clarification is needed though.



Additionally you gain the following list of traits:
• You gain two tentacles identical to the one granted by the Tentacle node manifestation, except the number of times they can grow is
increased to your class level, as is the tentacle you gain from that manifestation should you possess it.

Nix this. Just say that the Kreikiri can maintain an additional two natural attacks beyond the normal maximum and the player will do the rest.



• You gain a +6 bonus to your constitution statistic and regeneration 1/-.

Specify that the Regeneration is only negated/bypassed when the Kreikiri is uprooted. Regeneration without a weakness needs an explaination.



• You become completely tied to the location of the flesh node you selected and thus cannot move independently move away from it.

• The entirety of the area(s) covered by the fleshy material produced is considered a part of your body for all beneficial purposes (so for example your may be treated as standing in any of those eligible locations for effecting you. The site of your original body is still treated as normal.

This would be a good place to mention that this now means that you can attach grafts to Meat Moss and that Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery would be and extremely helpful mythos to have. Actually, why don't you add some extra Graft Slots that can only be used with the Meat Moss and are only active while the Kreikiri is rooted. Actually-actually, why don't you add Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery to the pre-reqs? I think it would actually be that important to effectively using this Mythos.

You should also specify that the Kreikiri can create new Flesh Nodes on any already existing patch of Meat Moss. This will allow him to push his borders regardless of where they are.



• The material produced by flesh nodes halves the time between whenever it grows (no matter the cause) and it and the flesh nodes gain fast healing 1.

• You gain the constant sharing of all senses with your animal companion and the ability to use any mythos you have that requires activation through your animal companion (as if you shared its location.

The sense sharing with the companion should be accompanied by constant telepathic contact. Having a surrogate avatar isn't much use if you have trouble directing it.



In order to ‘uproot’ yourself from the fused material you must spend a minute regenerating your limbs and form. Once you do so all flesh nodes you created take a point of damage that may not be reduced in any way every hour until you replant yourself, tacking the same amount of time a uprooting yourself. When uprooted you regain mobility, reduce your constitution by four, lose your regeneration and all flesh nodes and the material they produce lose their fast healing.

This is good but I would lose the Con reduction and add the Staggered condition (regardless of any normal immunities) for as long as he is uprooted. This is a Shintai, there are supposed to be downsides to going against you new nature.



Should all flesh nodes within a mile of you be destroyed and you are reduced to sufficiently low hip points to be dead, you immediately uproot and return to half of your maximum hit points.

Add the ability to ignore the Staggered condition from being uprooted for 1 min. Should all go wrong and he loses his realm, the Kreikiri has 10 rounds to run. 10 rounds to find sanctuary. 10 rounds for vengence before the loss of his greater self crushes his very will to act.

Also, I was thinking that the bonding with a greater environmental self should have some lasting changes on the base self. What do you think about having the Kreikiri gain a size level (with all appropriate ability bonuses and such) when they first bond/use this Shintai?



Atheistically this mythos’s effects generally appear as a part of the environment coming alive whenever you take action, as the site of your original body usually blends into the surrounding environment.

"Aesthetically". Typos are a bitch. More reason I think for the size increase, perhaps looking like a Flesh Elemental or somesuch. Also, you might want to reword this a bit. As is, it sounds like you can just animate the terrain when there is nothing in the mythos to suggest that such a thing is possible. It may look like that when using things like Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery but I think it would be a good idea to specify that.

Yasahiro
2015-08-02, 08:43 AM
Except Kreikiri with Shintai have reach everywhere on meat moss. It is actually the environment just gaining a mouth to bite your ass.

However, I agree with all these suggestions but... Not staggered condition. That makes them capable of taking only a single standard or move action. Creating creatures is a full one and such.

And now that I think about it, the animal companion of Kreikiri... Yeah, they could serve as Kerrigan to our Overmind.

Now, this might be an odd question but how does Shintai and/or being uprooted affect one's prowess in terms of mating practices?

Edit: also, regarding what was said regarding Kreikiri having to grow flesh... It would intensely restrict strategies a Kreikiri can have. Think about it this way, instead of being an intelligent being of many minds, you are just forced to grow the flesh, any strategy that requires you to wait before you do it would be impossible.

Overmind in Starcraft was smart. He grew but he could be patient. Kerrigan also had to grow hive afterwards but in Starcraft 2 she could restrict herself to specific places, colonies, for purposes of allies and such...

I can't words. What I am trying to say is that a Kreikiri WILL use his features but there should be a way to limit it. It is like snoring or rather breathing. You HAVE to do it but you can determine how you do it and for a time you can not do it.

WHAT I MEAN is that your Shintai not being that mind rape'y is perfect. It changes us physically, and it is just pure amount of things we can do that affect us mentally, no need to enforce it

Edit: what if two Kreikiris with Cry of the consumed try to contact each other? What if a creature I make has both that and the power stealing liege, being immune to mind control, but I have the exalted Mythos to directly control an amount of HD of my creations? How do these interact?

Also, can created creatures gain EXP?

Quarian Rex
2015-08-02, 03:41 PM
Except Kreikiri with Shintai have reach everywhere on meat moss. It is actually the environment just gaining a mouth to bite your ass.

Except that is not what the ability actually does. It is considered part of your body so someone could cast a healing spell or a buff on you from anywhere on the Meat Moss and that sort of thing. Like a fly casting support spells while standing on that part of your back that you can never quite scratch. It does not allow you to have natural attacks anywhere nor allow you to threaten the entire area. Your mouth is still on your face, your arms are still on your shoulders. Nothing in this ability says that you can teleport or duplicate your mouth or limbs somewhere else. That is where you would need to have Flesh Nodes or Grafts to actually take action. This ia also where Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery would be most useful since you could spontaneously place these Grafts anywhere on the Moss.



• The entirety of the area(s) covered by the fleshy material produced is considered a part of your body for all beneficial purposes (so for example your may be treated as standing in any of those eligible locations for effecting you. The site of your original body is still treated as normal.

It would seem like you still need to have some way to actually act in a given area. I think that is a good balance point.



However, I agree with all these suggestions but... Not staggered condition. That makes them capable of taking only a single standard or move action. Creating creatures is a full one and such.

Adding a note that while uprooted any act of creature creation or graft creation can be done with standard actions if it would normally be possible with full-round actions solves that. I think there should be an obvious and immediate reason to want to remain rooted when you have this Shintai and being unrooted should be a severe disadvantage over an un-Shintai'd Kreikiri.



Now, this might be an odd question but how does Shintai and/or being uprooted affect one's prowess in terms of mating practices?

Theoretically it wouldn't, but by that time the Kreikiri would be so addept in creature creation that his own offspring would be pittifully weak by comparisson. If you meant would they inherit the Shintai, then no, I would think not.



Edit: also, regarding what was said regarding Kreikiri having to grow flesh... It would intensely restrict strategies a Kreikiri can have. Think about it this way, instead of being an intelligent being of many minds, you are just forced to grow the flesh, any strategy that requires you to wait before you do it would be impossible.

What are you referring to? All of my recommendations actually removed wait times on the growth of Meat Moss and such.




Overmind in Starcraft was smart. He grew but he could be patient. Kerrigan also had to grow hive afterwards but in Starcraft 2 she could restrict herself to specific places, colonies, for purposes of allies and such...

I can't words. What I am trying to say is that a Kreikiri WILL use his features but there should be a way to limit it. It is like snoring or rather breathing. You HAVE to do it but you can determine how you do it and for a time you can not do it
Not sure what you mean here... Go sleep, come back and finish thought.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-02, 04:03 PM
WHAT I MEAN is that your Shintai not being that mind rape'y is perfect. It changes us physically, and it is just pure amount of things we can do that affect us mentally, no need to enforce it

See, this is the thing. This is not enforcing a mental change, it is enforcing a physical one. The Shintai changes the user into something that is quite literally greater than what he was. Uprooting leaves most of your flesh behind and now you are walking around as a shriveled little fraction of what you actually are. How can you move with these twig-like limbs? How can you breathe with these tiny little lungs? How can you pump blood with this humming-bird sized heart? Nevermind that these things were perfectly fine before you discovered the glory of the Shintai. You are more now and these scraps are not enough for you to function.

I think Staggered is pretty apt.



Edit: what if two Kreikiris with Cry of the consumed try to contact each other?

They would both freak out. They are each assaulted with memories that are not their own and they are not prepared for. No change necessary.



What if a creature I make has both that and the power stealing liege, being immune to mind control, but I have the exalted Mythos to directly control an amount of HD of my creations? How do these interact?

The control is not a mind-affecting ability and so it would be fully effective. Just like Vampires having control over their spawn.



Also, can created creatures gain EXP?
Up to your DM. They are essentially NPCs (and some perhaps Cohorts) so they would gain XP in exactly the same way.

Yasahiro
2015-08-03, 07:05 AM
Oh, no reach anywhere else?

ThreadNecro doesn't seem to agree:


how so? you should rarely be uprooted anyway, it is intended as an emergency tactic or when you really need to be somewhere in the flesh. the fact that you are functionally wherever the fleshy material is, and as the material grows, you can essentially gain a reach equivalent to the size of the planet given time, or at least a landmass of some nature. if you need to relocate just replant every half an hour or so.

And by the limited strategies and such, I was not talking to you, Quarian. I was talking to ThreadNecro and him saying that he is considering adding something that FORCES the Kreikiri to always grow flesh, make an amount of grafts or such.

THIS is what I was referring to:


maybe I could add a mental imperative to grow, making any creature who attempts to restrict your growth an immediate enemy of yours, while also forcing you to see to it that you generate as many graft points as possible, toss around grafts onto creatures, and use other such flesh altering mythos you have.


no, the flesh must grow, it does not turn off.

This is what I was against, not what you said Quarian. I was against Necro wanting to make mind rape'y changes that force a Kreikiri to act in a certain way, limiting possible strategies or alliances that would just require them to not grow their flesh in a certain area. I wasn't talking about your changes to flesh nodes, but rather the changes that ThreadNecro is considering.

Also, by sexual prowess I meant... How does being staggered affect one's performance in that manner. I need it for reasons, a possible whine on my character's part

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-03, 11:29 AM
ok so a lot has been said and I am not sure where to start my reply.

so as for the changes Quarian Rex has suggested be made to Creeping flesh-fortress, I agree with most of them. as for naming the material, it's a good idea, so Meat Moss will do, I can also collectively refer to it and the Flesh nodes together as the 'Fleshscape' or something like that as its, well, a landscape of flesh. I will also simplify the math

also, I like the idea for Sentinels. I was originally against making the Flesh nodes creatures in their own right, but this convinced me. but what do you think about having the nodes be treated as aberrations instead of constructs for all effects that vary in effect based creature types, as a nod to its nature as live organic material.

what I don't agree with is the Moss eventually having a point it stops spreading. maybe make it only continue to grow at a rate of 5ft/week so that it is not going to be world ending, but is still there for thematic sense. if nothing else villagers could just scrape the stuff off the ground on occasion.

will also speed up Necrotic meat-mutation and nerf Neural Echoes.

as for the suggested changes to Living-world shintai, yes the character essentially has reach to wherever the meat moss covers, but the downgrade to blindsense from blindsight should balance this, just because you can reach it you still cannot see it without other methods of detection or otherwise just spending time looking for it. as to adding the staggered condition when uprooted it is probably a good idea to have then want to be rooted. but what do you think about adding more time until it kicks in. perhaps about an hour? should be sufficient time to uproot, do what you need to, and reroot. while when forced to unroot you are immediately staggered from the unexpected shock.

as for Yasahiro's questions

Now, this might be an odd question but how does Shintai and/or being uprooted affect one's prowess in terms of mating practices?

that is indeed an odd question.

you want an answer don't you... well I guess they would be as capable as ever both rooted and unrooted. if unrooted and staggered I would honestly not know.


Also, can created creatures gain EXP?

I think that's the GMs call, personalty I would say they would if any other NPC would.

I will also get to work on the updating the mythos. might post later tonight.

Yasahiro
2015-08-03, 04:43 PM
To be fair, the growth spread being limitem is better as it makes Kreikiri more forced to make more flesh nodes just to spread. Think of the Creep Tumors from Starcraft. They had limited radius but were cheap. It forces you to make many to spread further instead of just having one to spread it forever and others for backup. It also gives more ways to deal with Kreikiri. Want to destroy the meat moss in area? Destroy this creep tumor. Nice, except other areas are still in control of other flesh nodes and Kreikiri is now fully aware of attacks on him.

Even limiting the growth speed is still just asking for apocalyptic scenario. Just agree to limited radius.

Also, yeah. Once again, the Shintai is a physical change and it makes sense. Original Kyniteros did not create creatures and he lacked medical skills. Being reborn changed him and the person he is being reborn through would have most effect mentally. But physically... Yeah.

What I mean to say... Mental change or forcing a Kreikiri to do things is a big no-no.

And how about the reach everywhere potentially being a manifestation or even Exalted? Creeping Flesh fortress is legendary and it is starcraft creep. Being able to attack, essentially appear everywhere would be even more powerful

Quarian Rex
2015-08-03, 05:26 PM
Also, by sexual prowess I meant... How does being staggered affect one's performance in that manner. I need it for reasons, a possible whine on my character's part

Lol. Okay... well Staggered just makes things take longer so... slow and steady, my friend, slow and steady.



what do you think about having the nodes be treated as aberrations instead of constructs for all effects that vary in effect based creature types, as a nod to its nature as live organic material.

I was originally leaning towards Aberrations myself but that opens up a lot of vulnerabilities and weird considerations that would need to be addressed, like disease, poison and mind-control. And if the Sentinels are Aberrations then is the Meat Moss as well? What does the Fleshscape (good name by the way) look like when it gets Filth Fever or the Bubonic Plague?

Besides, you already seemed to to be considering the original Moss and Sentinels as objects and it also lined up with the HPs of the Nodes quite elegantly. Even conceptially Construct is not a bad fit. The Moss and Nodes aren't really completed organisms on their own, more like the outward extensions of a greater whole. Attacking them might be like a flea attacking a callus or an exposed bone. Since the assault is on such a small scale (relatively) and cannot actually threaten the organism on the whole it could be best to treat the callus/bone as objects/constructs to resolve the efforts.

That was my thinking anyway. If you decide to go the Aberration route just address how you want the more biological reactions of the Fleshscape to be handled.



what I don't agree with is the Moss eventually having a point it stops spreading. maybe make it only continue to grow at a rate of 5ft/week so that it is not going to be world ending, but is still there for thematic sense. if nothing else villagers could just scrape the stuff off the ground on occasion.

I know that doesn't sound like much but it is actually a lot of ground coverage. You are looking at 260ft a year across a potentially vast area (it would only take @nine Flesh Nodes to make the Fleshscape extend a full mile and every node dropped just makes it bigger). As for the villagers, they would have to chop up a 5ft wide by several miles long stretch of Demonic Cancer every week or be driven from their homes. These are non-trivial considerations.

I think that my main concern here is that it removes any options a Kreikiri has for being subtle with this mythos. Want your castle to look normal on the outside but like the womb of Cthulhu on the inside? Sorry, the outside is gong to look like a pulsing tumor in a week. A permissive king grants his new Eccentric Healer a secluded wing of the castle, no questions asked, in which to make the Guard stronger? Questions will have to be asked when the walls in the adjacent maids quarters starts growing lungs. Made a Fleshscaped safe house deep in the city's sewers to be used as a last resort with Everywhere at once should things head south? The Inquisitors are already waiting. They noticed that some of the sewer drains were becoming orifices.

The uncontroled growth turns this from a perfectly reasonable (if distastful/ghastly) alternative to mundane construction to an Encroaching-Infection-Upon-The-Very-Earth. The first is a cause for concern and fright. Once people realize that it is the second it becomes a call to war. Both options are valid playstyles, I just think that they should both be options.

How about the uncontrolled growth only starts after you take Living-World Shintai? Once you become one with the Fleshscape you can no more stop its spread than you could stop your own growth during puberty and such. For the Fleshscape to expand past the limits of the Nodes it needs to be fed blood (metaphorically and maybe physically) from an actual shard of the Kyniteros. Besides once you have gone to the Shintai you have pretty much crossed the Rubicon in being subtle.



as for the suggested changes to Living-world shintai, yes the character essentially has reach to wherever the meat moss covers,

This really needs to be explained better in the ability because that is not what I read from it at all. And this also opens up a lot of unanswered questions. I'm going to assume that you are seeing the Kreikiri attacking via the Fleshscape and such (the Meat Moss forming tentacles, claws, mouths, etc.). Are these attacks identical to his own, using his grafts and limbs and such? If yes, then is he forming some form of avatar through which to use them? If yes, then do attacks against the avatar damage the Kreikiri or the environment? If there is no avatar, just natural attacks coming out of the ground, then what do the opponents actually fight? If they Ready actions or gain Attacks of Opportunity on the limbs (or whatever) do they attack your AC or that of the ground? If they hit, do they damage you or the Moss? If you can reach anywhere in the Fleshscape are you also considered to be threatening every square of Meat Moss as well? Remember Blindsesnse gives the defender Total Concealment if you don't have eyes on them.

There are lot of things to consider when you say that reach extends for miles. That's why I made my assumptions/suggestions in the PEACH. Add the ability to create Flesh Nodes to anywhere with room in the Fleshscape (forget my suggestion to add graft slots to the Fleshscape, Sentinel Flesh Nodes fill the niche better) and you have the ability to form senses/attacks anywhere in your realm as a full-round action. It has capabilities customized by the Kreikiri at the time of creation and so he can use the Rule of Cool (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool) to deal with any intruders, and combat can actually function with reach, threatened areas, and something to retaliate against. If he wants to react without terraforming the landscape then Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery is the best option. As a full-round (or swift) action he can equip one internalized graft (or two) on a given patch of Meat moss. Puppet, Lure Trap, and Spawn features can act as interesting avatars/surrogates and more standard Tentacle/Limb fratures can function normally (just remember to add some sensory features) attacking from their manifested square, damage done to them going to the Kreikiri as usual. The relatively high Graft Point limits available on Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery would be especially useful, allowing the equiped Grafts to be impressive as all hell. This would also add an interesting bit of resource war as well. The Kreikiri's defense would be limited by his Graft Pool (which by this point would most likely be impressive and growing) and a dedicated enough army would have a good chance to deplete it. Much more interesting that uncounterable limbs attacking from everywhere all the time.

The point here is that you already have the tools to do exactly what you envision. There is no need to reinvent the wheel and add another ruleset that needs to be balanced ontop of an already rules-heavy class. You already have the rules and abilities laid out, you just have to mention that this would be a really good place to make use of them.

This also opens up a lot of interesting variant playstyles. On the one hand, you can have the Shintai Kreikiri who took Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery, Sentinels, Uneven footing, Resistant node, and Always watching to be the micro-managing, militant, all-consuming expander of the Flesh. On the other can be the pacifist who only took Extrude flesh and Man-is-Monster Restoration, constantly growing and feeding on himself, relying on a symbiotic relationship with the children he is constantly producing for protection and support, constantly growing and bringing others into the peace of the New Way (whether they want to or not).

You have built one of the most customizable classes I have ever seen. DIfferent choices can result in completely different characters and that is a very good thing. Let those choices have a greater impact here. Tis all I'm saying.



as to adding the staggered condition when uprooted it is probably a good idea to have then want to be rooted. but what do you think about adding more time until it kicks in. perhaps about an hour? should be sufficient time to uproot, do what you need to, and reroot. while when forced to unroot you are immediately staggered from the unexpected shock.

Thematically both approaches work but from a gameplay perspective I favour my original recomendation. Why? Staggered is strictly a combat debuff, it has no effect on your capabilities (no skill or attribute penalties) it just makes you do things slower. If the Kreikiri seperates himself voluntarily it is not happening in combat and so actually has very little effect on whatever he is doing unless he gets suprised, in which case he should suffer the debuff since he took the chance in becoming velnerable and paid the price. When the Kreikiri is forcibly uprooted he is already behind the eightball. He has just lost a major investment (the Fleshscape, at least in the immediate area) and is at half HP, probably surrounded by foes. Having him start off staggered is like kicking a puppy. At least give him a chance. But only a chance. If he lets it drag on for more than 10 rounds then welcome to Stagger-town, population you. This is one of the places that I think game balance should shape the thematic vision. That's my reasoning anyway.

Some other considerations as well, what action is required for the initial bonding to the Flesh Node? When uprooted, what is required to reroot? Do you need to plant another Node and bond with it? Can you just sit down and start spreadng more Meat Moss? What action does it take?

Another thought. Since the Regeneration has no counter while rooted, how about any damage inflicted to a rooted Kreikiri below zero HP is transfered (as lethal damage) to the nearest Flesh Node within 1 mile? Eventually all Nodes within a mile wil be destroyed and the Kreikiri will be forced to uproot. If he gets caught I think there has to be some way to deal with him. I think this would be quite appropriate. What say you?

Yasahiro
2015-08-03, 10:27 PM
To be fair, I like the idea of having option of either restricting growth to an area and being able to constantly grow. But I don't like the idea of Shintai Kreikiri being forced to forever grow, ya know? I'd prefer for stealthied Shintai Kreikiri to still be possible, in a way, hm...

Edit:

I mean, you are saying that it would be as hard as trying to stop puberty. But consider what Kreikiri was doing all this time. Changing natural order, stopping such thing, stopping aging. Changing creatures. Shouldn't they HAVE the ability to stop their own "Natural growth" ?

Necroticplague
2015-08-04, 12:09 AM
If you want to limit your own growth, just take Extrude Flesh and destroy it for graft points. Since a Living-World is considered touching all of it (well, considered to BE all of it, but that's splitting hairs), you wouldn't have to manually look for it, just decide to let a square wither and die. Think of it like a prenatal organisms body:it constantly grows, and it has to be shaped and limited by apoptosis and tissue differentiation (Extrude flesh and Graft Points).

Quarian Rex
2015-08-04, 12:50 AM
I mean, you are saying that it would be as hard as trying to stop puberty. But consider what Kreikiri was doing all this time. Changing natural order, stopping such thing, stopping aging. Changing creatures. Shouldn't they HAVE the ability to stop their own "Natural growth" ?


That rationale was more to justify the spread happening after the Shintai and not before. As Necroticplague mentioned above, the continued growth is less of a factor for Shintai users since they can more or less babysit their own expansion rates. This is now the basis of their character, they can shape it as they please, pruning it like a bonsai tree. The limit on growth rate is more important for those without the Shintai since they are not in constant contact with the Fleshscape to change it as they wish.

I can see and respect the practical reasons for limiting growth and the thematic reasons why ThreadNecro5 wants the continual growth. I think this could be a way to have the best of both worlds.

Necroticplague
2015-08-04, 03:40 AM
Another thought. Since the Regeneration has no counter while rooted, how about any damage inflicted to a rooted Kreikiri below zero HP is transfered (as lethal damage) to the nearest Flesh Node within 1 mile? Eventually all Nodes within a mile wil be destroyed and the Kreikiri will be forced to uproot. If he gets caught I think there has to be some way to deal with him. I think this would be quite appropriate. What say you?

Um, I think you're missing how either Regeneration or Nonlethal Damage works. If you beat on a rooted krekiri (who has regeneration/-), their HP would never go below 0, because no actual damage is getting done. They're merely accumulating more nonlethal damage (keeping them unconcious).

As is, there are way to deal with them. They require somewhat extreme measures, but its possible. You start by knocking them unconcious through beating them nonlethally. You devote someone to standing around smacking them to make sure they don't get up. Then, someone else goes and destorys the flesh nodes within a mile of the one the Kreikiri is merged to. Then, you use an ability to remove or disable the regeneration, like repeatedly dousing them in Trollsbane until they fail the save, or using Ability Rip to remove it. Then, you doup-de-grace the sucker.

Sgt. Cookie
2015-08-04, 10:09 AM
A specific wording is also possible, like say:

"When a Kreikiri takes non-lethal damage in excess of its ordinary hit point total, the excess damage is instead transferred as lethal damage to the closest Flesh Node within a Mile."


That'd be how I'd do it, at least.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-04, 11:04 AM
Um, I think you're missing how either Regeneration or Nonlethal Damage works.

Oh no, I am quite aware of how Regeneration and Nonlethal Damage work. Whether you remember Nonlethal Damage as a seperate pool of damage that has to exceed you current Hp to have effect or as a cumulative total with lethal damage, just one that cannot result in death and dying, is just a semantic argument. Both approaches are functionally identical.



As is, there are way to deal with them. They require somewhat extreme measures, but its possible. You start by knocking them unconcious through beating them nonlethally. You devote someone to standing around smacking them to make sure they don't get up. Then, someone else goes and destorys the flesh nodes within a mile of the one the Kreikiri is merged to. Then, you use an ability to remove or disable the regeneration, like repeatedly dousing them in Trollsbane until they fail the save, or using Ability Rip to remove it. Then, you doup-de-grace the sucker.
Yeah... and that is rediculous. There is a reason why Regeneration X/- does not exist anywhere, ever. Any PC would just bury a dozen Nodes a half mile under the ground and never worry about defeat ever again. That is not a valid game mechanic. Can you think of the frustration you would have if the DM sent a BBEG with this Shintai against you and set him up logically? The game would end. It would be functionally impossible to find all of the Flesh Nodes (unless the DM was playing the BBEG as a simpleton) and the DM would be a douche for putting them up against something with no valid counter or weakness. It gets even worse when the PC does this to the DM.



A specific wording is also possible, like say:

"When a Kreikiri takes non-lethal damage in excess of its ordinary hit point total, the excess damage is instead transferred as lethal damage to the closest Flesh Node within a Mile."

Yup, that's all it takes. Hmm... Considering the Hp pools of the Nodes and how many can be packed into a mile it might be better to have it inflict double the overflow damage to nearby nodes.

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-04, 03:10 PM
I have the mythos updated, will be posting here first you you guys can double check them for errors. sorry I was unable to post them yesterday, but the wind was messing with my internet.

Creeping flesh-fortress {Whole}
Perquisites: Monster-making beast-lord

You are almost ready; someday soon the resurgent Kyniteros may yet hunt again. You have harvested enough of its might, coxed out from weak flesh, to begin the formation of a true avatar that shall usher in a golden age of perfection and unity of its scattered fragments. The final pieces will fall into place, just as soon as the world is consumed to make it whole.

As a full round action, you may spend 20 graft points to produce a ‘flesh node’ a small ball of unusual matter that is anchored to the ground by tendrils that is placed in an area within the Kreikiri’s reach. This node produces a thick carpet of material similar to strands of butchered or necrotic flesh over any surface it is on, including up walls and ceilings, known as your ‘web’ (which alongside your Flesh Nodes are referd to as your ‘Fleshscape’) that expands 5ft outwards in all directions per hour that the flesh node exists until the web covers a 50ft radius in all directions from its point of origin. Once it has expanded to this point it slows to spreading 5ft per day until it covers a 100ft area, then growth stops. You may concentrate as a full round action to grant yourself 5ft blindsense from everywhere your web grows, including across planes.

The Flesh Nodes themselves are Small Constructs that have 10hp/Kreikiri level (plus Construct bonus hp based on size, generally +10) that do not have any ability scores (and thus are Mindless), share the Kreikiri's bonus to saving throws acquired though their class levels, are considered to have HD equal to your Kreikiri level for any effect that requires it, have a hardness of 10, cannot be moved from where it was placed (immune to being Bull-
Rushed, Dragged, etc., but not to offensive Teleportation), and cannot be harvested for Graft Points.

The Web may be destroyed through a sunder combat manoeuvre. The Web has 10hp/inch and a hardness of 5. Should a Flesh node be destroyed the Web they support (that within a 100ft area) will begin to deteriorate by having all squares of the material be destroyed at a rate of 1hp/minute to all squares within 5ft of the Nodes prior position, and then once they are destroyed, affecting all the squares within 5ft of those positions, and so on until all of the Web is entirely destroyed or the area overlaps that supported by another node. In addition to the above the Fleshscape possesses a vulnerability to fire. Each 5ft patch of Web can recover HP at the rate of 1/hour and that so long as there is an unbroken line of Web between a patch and any Node, no matter the distance, the Web will not decay. Every 5ft space containing Web is capable of providing sufficient food to provide sustenance to a single Medium sized creature for one day (despite the material being flesh it can support herbivores). A single patch can sustain double the number of creatures for each size they are below Medium. Double the number of patches needed to sustain a creature for each size greater than Medium.

By default the Web will spread on a horizontal plane until it reaches a point where it must travel vertically in either direction, and keep spreading, and has a default thickness of an inch where it has spread. It does not grow over creatures or objects, instead growing underneath them.

You can influence the Webs growth by spending a minute in concentration and choosing one of the following
options:

• The Web may grow 1ft in any shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Example uses of this are constructing walls, ceilings, bridges and such.

• May harden the Web, which increases its HP/inch to 30 and its hardness becomes 10, but prevents further growth from that point and it becomes unable to provide sustenance to creatures. This may also target a Flesh node, doubling its HP and increasing hardness to 15, but leaving it unable to support Web. This hardened material may be worked like metal and often resembles a carapace of some creature, bone, or similar form.

• May convert the Web into a transparent membrane, which can be seen through but prevents further growth
from that point and it becomes unable to provide sustenance to creatures.

• May alter a 5ft area of Web to contain a simple mechanism that allows for the opening or closing of a gap in the material. Possible uses include creating doors, chests, windows, ect. These may only be opened or closed by you and those you choose to allow. Doing so is a mental action that uses up a swift action.

The time it takes for the effect to apply depends on the distance to the nearest Flesh Node. When influencing Web within 50ft of a Node the growth occurs in the same minute as the concentration. When influencing Web between 55ft and 100ft of a node each minute of concentration takes one hour to take effect (20 minutes of concentrating would require 20 hours to be finished). One cannot influence the growth of the Web further than 100ft from a Node. In any given use of this ability you may only affect a number of individual 5ft squares equal to your level but the same square may be affected more than once/use.
Advanced manifestations:

Sentinels
When creating a Flesh Node you may design it as if it was a Creature but for 1/5th the normal cost. It retains its type and you do not need to pay for creating a torso. The Advanced Form, Transient Skill, and Cascade of Life options are not available to Flesh Nodes. Ability scores are normal as per Created Creature and the Node shares the BAB of the Kreikiri.

The Node gains or loses HP(due to being a construct) based on size as per normal. Any feature added that provides a movement rate of any kind does not provide said movement, but can still use any other capabilities or be purely decorative. When the Kreikiri uses Blindsense on the Web they also have access to any sensory organs on any of the Flesh Nodes.

Commanding these Nodes is a free action used when concentrating to use your blindsense from the Web produced through this mythos.

Uneven footing
The terrain that makes up the Fleshscape hampers the movement of those whose presence is unwanted. This reduces the base speed of all creatures other than you, Creatures you’ve created (through any means available to you) and those you specifically allow, by 10ft.

Everywhere at once
When you are concentrating to benefit from your blindsence and within 5ft of a Flesh Node, you may transport yourself to any area adjacent to a Flesh Node, as a full round action.

Resistant node
Your Fleshscape loses its vulnerability to fire, and gains +2 hardness.

Always watching
You are now always considered to be concentrating on your web for the purpose of this mythos when it would benefit you (i.e your blindsense is always active and such).

Extrude flesh
You may, as a full round action, choose to destroy a single 5ft cube of Web created by one of your nodes in order to gain two graft points per inch of thickness. You must be able to touch the material to do this.

Dominion of air
Your flesh nodes may now produce particles that infest the air around them. This causes any area of open air area within a 50ft area of a flesh node to be treated as if it was part of the Fleshscape for the purposes of concentrating to gain blindsense from this mythos. Additionally the area causes any creature inside it to become fatigued until they spend an hour outside of the area after spending a minute inside, and lowers light levels by one step. These later effects do not affect creatures with a Kreikiri-granted graft, who are a Created Creature or that are a Kreikiri themselves.

Dominion of water
The Fleshcape may now emit particles into the surrounding water. Such water is treated as if it was covered by Web for concentrating to gain blindsense. You may now also influence a 5ft cube of Web to convert it into water. The water affected by this manifestation often takes on a black or blood red colouration.

Creatures with a Kreikiri-granted graft, who are a created creature or that are a Kreikiri themselves may drink from such water as a full round action to gain fast healing 1 for one round. This water is replenished from the surrounding Web. Should it be stored the water loses its healing capabilities.

Infectious presence (requires Necrotic meat-mutation)
Your disease may be spread through the consumption of any part of the Fleshscape. Any creature that eats the material is exposed and must save against the disease.

Should you possess the dominion of air manifestation any creature within the vapour is exposed to the disease and must save again once/hour.

Should you possess the dominion of water manifestation any creature that drinks the water is exposed to the disease and infected creatures may benefit from the fast healing effect.

Living-world shintai
Perquisites: Creeping Flesh-Fortress, Monster-Making Beast-Lord, Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis


You unite with the perfect metaphor of yourself, the near reborn kyniteros, and the blur where one meets the other. The world expanding net that forms the heart of your rebuilt titan-zygote, from which the lesser avatars of you make their home, the lair from which your hunts begin and end.

When acquiring this mythos you immediately gain a free manifestation of your choice for ‘Creeping Flesh-Fortress’. Additionally you select any Flesh Node you own and you are immediately transported to its location and fused with it as a free action.

By being fused with the flesh Node you essentially overwrite its location with yourself and You are treated as the flesh node for all effects, with any additional hardness you gain becoming DR/-.
Additionally you gain the following list of traits:

• You may possess two more natural attacks from grafts that your normal limit, and should you possess the Ever-shifting protean-mastery mythos or alter gain it you gain an additional two ‘slots’ for internalised grafts.

• You gain a +6 bonus to your Constitution statistic and Regeneration 1/-. This Regeneration is lost under the conditions described below.

• You become completely tied to the location of the flesh node you selected and thus cannot move independently move away from it.

• The entirety of the area(s) covered by Web is considered a part of your body for all beneficial purposes (so for example your may be treated as standing in any of those eligible locations for effecting you. You may not attack creatures outside of your bodies’ actual reach through this effect). The site of your original body is still treated as normal. You may continue to place Flesh nodes on any area covered by Web.

• The material produced by Flesh Nodes halves the time between whenever it grows (no matter the cause) and it and the Flesh Nodes gain fast healing 1.

• You gain the constant sharing of all senses with, and telepathy with infinite range to, your Animal Companion and the ability to use any Mythos you have that requires activation through your animal companion (as if you shared its location.

In order to ‘uproot’ yourself from the Web you must spend a minute of concentration regenerating your limbs and form. Once you do so all Flesh Nodes you created take a point of damage that may not be reduced in any way every hour until you replant yourself, tacking the same amount of time as uprooting yourself. When uprooted you regain mobility you lose your regeneration, all Flesh Nodes and the material they produce lose their fast healing, and are constantly staggered. When the Kreikiri uproots they take the Flesh Node they fused with (whose effects when uprooted are nullified) with them, and it is replanted in their replacement position when they once again ‘plant’ themselves. When staggered from uprooting you may create Creatures and grafts and use any creature altering mythos as a standard action.

When a rooted Kreikiri is rendered unconscious from nonleathal damage, the damage they take is transferred to the nearest Flesh Node within one mile. Should all flesh nodes within a mile of you be destroyed you lose your regeneration until there is once again a Flesh Node within a mile of your position and at least 30muinties have passed. When you are reduced to sufficiently low hip points to be dead, you immediately uproot and return to half of your maximum hit points. You have a full minute before you become staggered from this uprooting.

Should you possess the ‘From-a-single-cell rebirth’ mythos when you may reform your ‘body’ in any area covered by Web.

Should you possess the ‘Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery’ mythos you may As a full-round (or swift if you possess the Quick mutation manifestation) action you can equip one internalized graft (or two if you possess the Adaptive arsenal manifestation) on a given patch of Web. You must be able to perceive the location you are attaching the graft through some method (even if only through blindsense). Any damage done through attacking an internalised graft is dealt to the Kreikiri

Aesthetically manifesting a graft through Web generally appears as that part of the environment coming alive as the parts sprout from the ground).

Necrotic meat-mutation
Perquisite: Monster-making beast-lord
Your body becomes host to a mutational disease. This disease is spread through your body fluids and though any natural attack you possess, using the mechanics listed below:
It is a disease who’s save DC as is normal for mythos-based effects. the diseases incubation period is 1d4 days, with further saves thereafter occurring every 24 hours. The effects of the disease on a failed save are 1d2 charisma drain.

The visible symptoms of the disease are that the victim’s entire body begins going through temporary spontaneous mutations, at first only things like hair colour or skin texture may be effected, but later entire vestigial limbs may develop and retract, their limbs develop new joints, and eventually the infected individual becomes a horrifying sight of jumbled, ever-shifting flesh and erupting organs, looking almost as if a swarm of writhing insects has burrowed beneath their skin. Despite the effects on someone’s looks, and likely their mental state, a canny individual can make use of their situation. Once a creature has took five points of charisma drain from the disease they increase their natural reach by 5ft, for every three points of such damage they take they increase all their physical statistics by one point, and they gain a bonus on intimidate checks equal to the amount of charisma drain they have taken.

Unfortunately (for the victim anyway) however the develop an unending compulsive hunger on taking their first point of charisma damage, gaining a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The infected creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller. After eating the creature the infected individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should to have harvested the corpse for graft points, taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such, with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

If the victim can gain a number of Graft Points in a day equal to or greater than half their Charisma score then they don't have to make the save for a number of days equal to their Con bonus (min 1) and can suppress any changes in appearance. Once their Charisma drops to 8 or lower they cannot suppress the changes in their appearance and lose any Hidden Power augments they may have.

This continues until the creature has been infected for d10 years or their charisma becomes zero, at which time the true effects of the disease become apparent upon the victim slipping into a coma and begins to mutate over a minute. At this time you immediately become aware of this creature and subsequently become aware of their location and of what the creature has seen in the past minute. You may then immediately create a creature, as per ‘Monster-making beast-lord’, without having to pay the 15 points to construct the creatures body, and using the amount of graft points the creature has (and only that creature, not any of yours) combined with what they would grant should you harvest them but with the dice rolled maximised. This Creature is treated as one you created in all ways and for resurrection purposes the creature who was infected (whose body became the new creature) is treated as if their body was raised as an undead creature for spell effects. When creating a creature due to this disease you must spend at least half the graft points available. Any unused points are granted to the Kreikiri the disease originated from.

Kreikiri, created creatures, and those who bear a Kreikiri graft are are given complete blanket immunity to the disease, even with the ‘Unbound creation’ manifestation.

Creatures created from the infected bodies are considered allies to each other, likely engaging in pack tactics if of animal level intelligence, and will cooperate to greater degrees if smarter. The Creatures become hostile to all other creatures in a manner similar to those altered with ‘Storm-of-Cuts life Altering Flurry’ and you may "Handle" or “Push” them using the Handle Animal skill regardless of current Int or creature type. Unlike such altered creatures however they by default are always neutral to you and other Kreikiri.

Upon transformation into a Creature you may choose of the infected creature may retain their original mind and memories if you desire them to, but in such cases the creatures have a 50% chance to not gain the hostility to non-Creatures and have their disposition toward the Kreikiri remain unchanged. Such cases the Creature is rebuilt as per the Man-is-Monster Restoration manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord but without the half price discount.

Once the disease is cured any charisma drain the infected creature took becomes charisma damage and can be healed normally and any graft points the creature accrued are lost and granted to the Kreikiri.

Advanced manifestations:
Neural Echoes
Every time an infected creature consumes another creature for graft points it retains a portion of that creatures mind, and when the infected becomes a Created Creature you may choose for these portions of consumed minds to be worked into the final construction (you may specifically choose which minds if any are used), allowing you to choose between a composite mind or and diffused mind.

[i]Composite Mind
A composite mind is a fusion of the numerous minds. It grants the resulting Creature the ability to make a special Bardic Knowledge check (as per the bard class feature) on anything the consumed may have known with a cumulative +1 bonus (up to a max of their HD) per mind used to form the Creature. The disposition and opinion of the resulting creature would tend towards a middle ground between all minds.

Diffused Mind
?

Virulent plague
You gain ability focus (Necrotic meat-mutation) as a bonus feat. In addition your disease now becomes magical, now requiring a remove curse spell in additional to a cure disease spell to cure it.

Outbreak
You may choose on creation to grant any Creature created though your disease the ability to spread the disease through their bodily fluids and natural attacks, identically to the Kreikiri. Additionally you select one of your natural attacks. When used to transmit the disease the DC is increased by +2.

Dead men tell no secrets but those of flesh
When an infected creature dies their death throws produce a number of thrashing limbs that target all creatures within a range equal to the creatures reach +5ft. have the creature roll an attack roll against any creature in this radius apart from creatures you created and you, with every creature hit taking an amount of damage equal to 1d6/HD of the dying creature. This manifestations effects are treated as a natural attack.

For every creature that dies as a result of this (as well as any corpses in the area affected) is fused with the now dead infected creature that is immediately considered to have consumed those corpses for graft points. After this the creature immediately becomes a creature as if their charisma becomes zero.

Nightmarish genesis
Whenever the disease causes a creature to be formed, it only takes one round to do so.

Unbound creation
Your disease now ignores immunity to disease.

Old flesh gives way to new
Every 24 hours you may select a single option form the ranger favoured enemy list. For that day your disease may only infect creatures of that type and infected that are not of that type have the disease cease to infect them for that day. If you wise the disease may not target a specific creature type and instead behave as normal.

Patent-zero lurking technique
You may choose, as a swift action, to disable tor enable the ability for you to spread your disease.


also a problem I have is that the space for legendary and exalted mythos is full, what do you guys think about separating the exalted mythos onto a post here and just kinking to it? should that work?

Necroticplague
2015-08-04, 03:13 PM
Oh no, I am quite aware of how Regeneration and Nonlethal Damage work. Whether you remember Nonlethal Damage as a seperate pool of damage that has to exceed you current Hp to have effect or as a cumulative total with lethal damage, just one that cannot result in death and dying, is just a semantic argument. Both approaches are functionally identical. True, but one is how the rules work, and the other isn't. Barring things that shut down or bypass regeneration (that one mythic class with the Excellency that does so), the Kreikiri would never be below 0 health. It's not just a semantic difference, it's a very hard one, which is why you'd need a wording like what Cookie suggested.



Yeah... and that is rediculous. There is a reason why Regeneration X/- does not exist anywhere, ever. Any PC would just bury a dozen Nodes a half mile under the ground and never worry about defeat ever again. That is not a valid game mechanic. Can you think of the frustration you would have if the DM sent a BBEG with this Shintai against you and set him up logically? The game would end. It would be functionally impossible to find all of the Flesh Nodes (unless the DM was playing the BBEG as a simpleton) and the DM would be a douche for putting them up against something with no valid counter or weakness. It gets even worse when the PC does this to the DM. Actually, re-reading it, you don't need to go through all of that. You can kill a rooted kreikiri if you can kill it without damage, such as by negative levels, SoD, or CON damage/drain/burn. That whole runaround is only needed if you have so little creativity you can only think to kill them with straight damage. And lack something that specifically ignores Regeneration (like the Teramarch of Syntrofos mythos).

Also, there are things with unbypassable regen. The Tarrasque is one example, and a Protean/Hagumenon is another.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-04, 10:50 PM
Creeping flesh-fortress {Whole}


Looks pretty good. Couple things though.



By default the Web will spread on a horizontal plane until it reaches a point where it must travel vertically in either direction, and keep spreading...

This wording has always seemed off. Spread until you encounter X (Stop!), then keep going. Why say to stop? What about something like...

'By default the Web will spread across any solid surface it encounters, and has a default thickness of an inch where it has spread. It does not grow over creatures or objects, instead growing underneath them.'

I think that really covers it. Floor to wall? Check. Wall to ceiling? Check. Floor to throat of pit trap? Check. Beach to ocean floor? Check.



• The Web may grow 1ft in any shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Example uses of this are constructing walls, ceilings, bridges and such.

Do you mean 1 inch in thickness shaped how you want? Current wording looks like you can add 1 ft of thickness or any shape so long as it is 1ft high. How about something like...

'The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.'

How does that sound? I think it covers everything and leaves creative options open.



• May convert the Web into a transparent membrane, which can be seen through but prevents further growth
from that point and it becomes unable to provide sustenance to creatures.

Backspace that last puppy to line them up.



Advanced manifestations:

Sentinels

Bold 'Advanced manifestations' and unbold/italicize 'Sentinels' and the other manifestations.



When creating a Flesh Node you may design it as if it was a Creature but for 1/5th the normal cost.

Change to...

'When creating a Flesh Node you may design it as if it was a Creature but for 1/5th the normal cost (1/3 the cost of any abilities that duplicate magic items).'

No sense giving a discount on item creation.



Dominion of water
... Such water is treated as if it was covered by Web for concentrating to gain blindsense.

This wording seems to mean that you would only get Blindsense for 5ft above the surface of the water. Wording depends on how you want to do this. Blindsense throughout an entire body of water if you have the bottom covered? Sounds fair. Fleshscape bridge stretching over the Marianas Trench of Middle Earth giving you Blindsense underneath it down to Cthulhu? Your call. Just need a better way to specify that.




Living-world shintai




When acquiring this mythos you immediately gain a free manifestation of your choice for ‘Creeping Flesh-Fortress’. Additionally you select any Flesh Node you own and you are immediately transported to its location and fused with it as a free action (destroying the Flesh Node in the process).

Add the bolded part. Horribleness and unbalance abound when implying that creatures might merge/stack.



• You may possess two more natural attacks from grafts than your normal limit, and should you possess the Ever-shifting protean-mastery mythos or later acquire it you gain an additional two ‘slots’ for internalised grafts.

Suggested wording changes bolded.



• You become completely tied to the location of the flesh node you selected and thus cannot move independently move away from it.

Take out the bolded 'move'.



• You gain the constant sharing of all senses with, and telepathy with infinite range to, your Animal Companion and the ability to use any Mythos you have that requires activation through your animal companion (as if you shared its location.

Just missed a bracket at the end.



In order to ‘uproot’ yourself from the Web you must spend a minute of concentration regenerating your limbs and form. Once you do so all Flesh Nodes you created take a point of damage that may not be reduced in any way every hour until you replant yourself, tacking the same amount of time as uprooting yourself. When uprooted you regain mobility you lose your regeneration, all Flesh Nodes and the material they produce lose their fast healing, and you and your Fleshscape are constantly staggered. When the Kreikiri uproots they take the Flesh Node they fused with (whose effects when uprooted are nullified) with them, and it is replanted in their replacement position when they once again ‘plant’ themselves. When staggered from uprooting you may create Creatures and grafts and use any creature altering mythos as a standard action.

Add the bolded. Remove the crossed out section. You already stated that the Kreikiri now counts as a Flesh Node. The above wording just seem to imply that the original Flesh Node still exists as a seperate entity and I don't think you mean that.



When staggered from uprooting you may create Creatures and grafts and use any creature altering mythos as a standard action if it would normally require a full-round action.

Add the bolded. Trying to make certain actions possible with Staggered, not give and enhanced Flesh Flowing Like the Tide for free.



When a rooted Kreikiri takes non-lethal damage in excess of its current hit point total, the excess damage is instead transferred as lethal damage to the nearest Flesh Node within one mile. Should all flesh nodes within a mile of you be destroyed you lose your regeneration until there is once again a Flesh Node within a mile of your position and at least 30 minutes have passed. When you are reduced to sufficiently low hip points to be dead, you immediately uproot and return to half of your maximum hit points. You have a full minute before you become staggered from this uprooting.

First bolded is a slight variation on Sgt. Cookie's suggested wording which is a bit better/more specific. Second bold is just spelling.



Should you possess the ‘From-a-single-cell rebirth’ mythos then you may reform your ‘body’ in any area covered by Web.

When->then.



Should you possess the ‘Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery’ mythos you may As a full-round (or swift if you possess the Quick mutation manifestation) action you can equip one internalized graft (or two if you possess the Adaptive arsenal manifestation) on a given patch of Web. You must be able to perceive the location you are attaching the graft through some method (even if only through blindsense). This means that the Kreikiri must either have Quick Mutation to activate the grafts while concentrating to perceive the area, or have Always watching to be able to use a full-round action to equip the graft (or both). Any attacks made on a Graft equiped on the Fleshscape are handled normally or as if attacking the Kreikiri himself (depending on the graft) and any damage done through attacking an internalised graft is dealt to the Kreikiri.

Add the bolded for clarification. Seems reasonable.




Necrotic meat-mutation




Your body becomes host to a mutational disease. This disease is spread through your body fluids and though any natural attack you possess, using the mechanics listed below:
It is a disease who’s save DC is as normal for mythos-based effects. The diseases incubation...

Add bolded to fix typo and capitalization.



The visible symptoms of the disease are that the victim’s entire body begins going through temporary spontaneous mutations, increasing in severity the lower a victim's Charisma is. At first only things like hair colour ...

Add bolded. Let the beautiful noblewoman gradually degrade and have time to take steps to preserve some of herself. Let the orc barbarian go full Brundle-Fly in a day or two.



Once a creature has taken five points of charisma drain from the disease they increase their natural reach by...

Spelling.



Unfortunately (for the victim anyway) however they develop an unending compulsive hunger on taking their first point of charisma drain, gaining a bite attack...

Bolded typo fixes.



This continues until the creature has been infected for d10 years or their charisma becomes zero, at which time the true effects of the disease become apparent when the victim slips into a coma and begins to mutate over a minute.

Bolded better wording.



Kreikiri, created creatures, and those who bear a Kreikiri graft are are given complete blanket immunity to the disease, even with the ‘Unbound creation’ manifestation.

Scratch the first 'are'.



Upon transformation into a Creature you may choose for the infected creature may retain their original mind and memories...

Typo.



Once the disease is cured any charisma drain the infected creature took becomes charisma damage and can be healed normally and any unused graft points the creature accrued are lost and granted to the Kreikiri.

Clarification.



[i]Advanced manifestations:
Neural Echoes

Remove the '' and italicize the other manifestations. For the Composite Mind/Diffused Mind sub-manifestations perhaps bullet that and italicize?



Dead men tell no secrets but those of flesh
When an infected creature dies their death throws produce a number of thrashing limbs that target all creatures within a range equal to the creatures reach +5ft. Have the creature...

Capitalization.



Old flesh gives way to new
Every 24 hours you may select a single option form the ranger favoured enemy list. For that day your disease may only infect creatures of that type and infected that are not of that type (or subtype) are affected as if they consumed Graft Points equal to half their Charisma (lasting only a day, not their Con bonus). If you wish the disease may target everyone [I]but a specific creature type (or subtype) with similar results.

Bolded for typo and clarity. I have to say, you took this in a much more interesting direction that I had originally thought. Having the change in targets effect those already infected raises a lot of possibilities. Only suggestion I would make would be for the change to remain in effect till it was deliberately changed. Maybe take 8 hours (not resting) to alter the targets. Specify that any changes persist even after the death of the Kreikiri. That way, if a population is being held hostage/blackmailed by a Kreikiri with this, and they find out how this works, they have 8 hours to kill him before he makes them go all '28 Days Later' on each other.




also a problem I have is that the space for legendary and exalted mythos is full, what do you guys think about separating the exalted mythos onto a post here and just kinking to it? should that work?

Yup. Should be fine. If it's good enough for the Ozodrin it's good enough for the Kreikiri.

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-07, 02:10 PM
Looks pretty good. Couple things though.

This wording has always seemed off. Spread until you encounter X (Stop!), then keep going. Why say to stop? What about something like...

'By default the Web will spread across any solid surface it encounters, and has a default thickness of an inch where it has spread. It does not grow over creatures or objects, instead growing underneath them.'

I think that really covers it. Floor to wall? Check. Wall to ceiling? Check. Floor to throat of pit trap? Check. Beach to ocean floor? Check.

will use this wording


Do you mean 1 inch in thickness shaped how you want? Current wording looks like you can add 1 ft of thickness or any shape so long as it is 1ft high. How about something like...

'The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.'

How does that sound? I think it covers everything and leaves creative options open.

yes that was indeed a typo. will add the wording you are suggesting.



Bold 'Advanced manifestations' and unbold/italicize 'Sentinels' and the other manifestations.

will correct this, the error occurred as I was rushing somewhat.



Change to...

'When creating a Flesh Node you may design it as if it was a Creature but for 1/5th the normal cost (1/3 the cost of any abilities that duplicate magic items).'

No sense giving a discount on item creation.

yes, good idea to specify that.


This wording seems to mean that you would only get Blindsense for 5ft above the surface of the water. Wording depends on how you want to do this. Blindsense throughout an entire body of water if you have the bottom covered? Sounds fair. Fleshscape bridge stretching over the Marianas Trench of Middle Earth giving you Blindsense underneath it down to Cthulhu? Your call. Just need a better way to specify that.

will add wording that any part of the fleshscape that is growing over water, or that covers the bottom, grants blindsense to the entire area that is above or below that part of the fleshscape that is still part of the continues body of water.


Add the bolded part. Horribleness and unbalance abound when implying that creatures might merge/stack

i'd swear I added wording to that effect:smallconfused:. will add



Suggested wording changes bolded.
Take out the bolded 'move'.
Just missed a bracket at the end.

will correct these.


Add the bolded. Remove the crossed out section. You already stated that the Kreikiri now counts as a Flesh Node. The above wording just seem to imply that the original Flesh Node still exists as a seperate entity and I don't think you mean that.

I had added the wording just in case someone thought the Node would be left behind. will implement your suggestion.


Add the bolded. Trying to make certain actions possible with Staggered, not give and enhanced Flesh Flowing Like the Tide for free.

this is another thing I would swear I had already added. I suppose that is what happens when you rush.


First bolded is a slight variation on Sgt. Cookie's suggested wording which is a bit better/more specific. Second bold is just spelling.

will add/correct



Add the bolded for clarification. Seems reasonable.

Add bolded to fix typo and capitalization.

will do.


Add bolded. Let the beautiful noblewoman gradually degrade and have time to take steps to preserve some of herself. Let the orc barbarian go full Brundle-Fly in a day or two.

will specafy.


Spelling.

is indead the problem.


Bolded typo fixes.
Bolded better wording.
Scratch the first 'are'.
Typo.
Clarification.

will sort these out


Remove the '[i]' and italicize the other manifestations. For the Composite Mind/Diffused Mind sub-manifestations perhaps bullet that and italicize?

good idea for the pullet points.


Bolded for typo and clarity. I have to say, you took this in a much more interesting direction that I had originally thought. Having the change in targets effect those already infected raises a lot of possibilities. Only suggestion I would make would be for the change to remain in effect till it was deliberately changed. Maybe take 8 hours (not resting) to alter the targets. Specify that any changes persist even after the death of the Kreikiri. That way, if a population is being held hostage/blackmailed by a Kreikiri with this, and they find out how this works, they have 8 hours to kill him before he makes them go all '28 Days Later' on each other.

good ideas here.


Yup. Should be fine. If it's good enough for the Ozodrin it's good enough for the Kreikiri.

ok, will reserve a spot after this post.

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-07, 02:11 PM
Exalted Mythos


Critical Mass Expansion {Splintered}
Perquisites: Creeping Flesh-Fortress

The Kyniteros’s sundered shards are within all, it is everything - you are everything. Soon all shall be one.
On taking this mythos the speed at which your Web naturally spreads is doubled (but not that of growth you intentionally trigger).
Additionally you may now convert the bottommost layer of the ground that Web grows upon into more Web, effectively replacing it. This is done identically to any other way you can influence the material but cannot be reversed without magic such as a wish or miracle.

Basic Manifestations
Self is All Realization
You may now gain mental control over some of your created Creatures. You may select a number of hit dice of such creatures (upon gaining this mythos you select from any creatures you have created) equal to quadruple your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. The creatures you control have their senses permanently linked to you while controlled and constantly follow your exact desires and intentions as you choose. Upon creating a creature you may choose to make them among the creatures you are in total control of, with excess HD becoming uncontrolled and behaving as normal for them.

Glorious Flesh-Cathedral
The speed at which Web naturally spreads is doubled again, and the speed of the material you influence develops at now quadruples.

Flesh-Altering Monstrosity Masterpiece {Whole}
Perquisite: Stitched Nightmare

You are an imperfect vessel. You are forced to act on the level of insects. They act as if you are one of them, having to follow their codes and their society, to live as they do. You are no insect. You are a scion off perfection. You are the return of perfection. And so you made yourself perfect.

You now no longer have a limit on the maximum number of grafts you may possess at a time. Additionally when you purchase a manifestation of this Mythos using Mythos points, it is 25% cheaper than normal.

Any physical alterations developed from manifestations of this Mythos immediately apply themselves to any grafts you attach to yourself if you wish them to.

Basic Manifestations:
Depths Leviathan
You and all Creatures you create (including Creatures that already existed at the time of gaining this Mythos) gain qualities that make you resemble an amphibious or aquatic being or some other creature that inhabits a watery environ. Beings so efected often grow webbed digits or a fluked tail. Particularly monstrous versions usually develop features reminiscent of deep sea life.
Effected beings gain the aquatic subtype and the amphibious special quality, and a swim speed equal to your land speed +20ft.
Such beings also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Immunity to cold.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their wisdom score.
• Immunity to the effects of water pressure.
• Are considered native to the plane of water whenever it would benefit you.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-World Shintai’ your Fleshscape gains immunity to cold and all creatures that possess a graft you created gain immunity to water pressure.

Cavern Stalking Terror
You and all Creatures you create (including Creatures that already existed at the time of gaining this Mythos) gain qualities that make you resemble a burrowing or other creature that dwells underground. Beings so efected often have their upper body develop and their hide thickening or growing body nodules among other troglodytic features. More inhuman versions may gain a body of solid rock or grow into some heavy-set beast or strangely elongated creature.
Efected beings gain darkvision 30ft or increase the distance of pre-existing darkvision by 30ft, and gain a burrow speed equal to your land speed that may move through stone at half its normal speed and metal at a quarter of normal speed.

Effected beings also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Immunity to acid.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their constitution score.
• Tremorsense equal to your darkvision.
• Are are considered native to the plane of earth whenever it would benefit you.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-World Shintai’ your Fleshscape gains gain immunity to acid, and all creatures who possess a graft you created gain 30ft darkvision.

Sky-Swooping Horror Beast
You and all Creatures you create (including Creatures that already existed at the time of gaining this Mythos) become capable of flight and your body alters itself to better live airborne.
Beings so effected often gain features reminiscent of a bird or insect, but any other alterations for flight are possible. In all cases efected creatures develop vast pinions or some more unusual method of flight.
You gain your choice of a fly speed equal to your land speed (perfect), or a fly speed equal to your land speed +20ft (average).

Effected beings also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Immunity to electricity.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their dexterity score.
• Become immune to the effects of air pressure from high altitude.
• Are considered native to the plane of air whenever it would benefit you.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-World Shintai’ your Fleshscape gains gain immunity to electricity, and all creatures that you create or who possess a graft you created that possess a fly speed increase the speed by 10ft and their manoeuvrability by one step.

World-Aflame Empowerment
You and all Creatures you create (including Creatures that already existed at the time of gaining this Mythos) are now able to survive at extreme temperature, appearing symbolic of flames themselves.
Affected creatures often gain minor features that make themselves somehow appear more fierce, even feral, mainly though they become partly wreathed in flame, or even have body areas not unlike molten rock in appearance.

You and all effected Creatures gain the ability to cover yourself in flames, causing any creature who physically touches, including via natural attack or unarmed strike to take 2d6 fire damage from the fire and they must take a reflex save to avoid catching fire with a successful hit in melee they also deal 2d6 fire damage and force a creature to save against being lit on fire. A creature lit on fire takes d6 fire damage for the next 1d4 rounds and burning creature can attempt a new save as a full-round action. Dropping and rolling on the ground grants a +4 bonus on this save. Additionally when covered in flames you may light a flammable object on fire with a touch, and on such objects your flames ignore hardness. Your fires may spread subject to GM disgression.
Activating and deactivating your flames is a standard action.

Effected beings also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Immunity to fire.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their strength score.
• Now ignores any effect that would block their vision that are based of flames, smoke or something otherwise burning.
• Are considered native to the plane of fire whenever it would benefit you.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-World Shintai’ your Fleshscape gains immunity to fire, and all creatures who possess a graft you created gain fire resistance 10.

Stratosphere-Breaching Terrible Genesis (requires Sky-Swooping Horror Beast)
Effected beings become something alien, reaching out beyond this world to hunt and grow beyond
the creatures body changes, gaining any variety of odd physical augmentations. Effected beings no longer have to breathe, and survive in a vacuum, and gain the following special quality:

Starflight
You can travel through space. You fly through at incredible speeds, although exact travel times vary, a trip within a single solar system normally takes 3d20 months, while a trip beyond normally takes 3d20 years (or more, at the GM's discretion)—provided you know the way to its destination.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-World Shintai’ you may cause an effect to emanate from any individual flesh node or area of web, covering a 10ft area in which gravity does not to function and no air is present (e.g. objects keep moving, people have to hold their breath and such). additionally all creatures you create or possess a graft you created may choose whether to be effected by the lack of gravity, and may choose what direction gravity pulls towards for themselves when within he effected area as a swift action at the start of their turn, and do not need to breathe.

Inhuman Majesty
the creatures become both strangely compelling and terrifying to others
The Effected beings often gain features that make them seem familiar to others and at the same time express some aura that makes others somewhat more subservient to them.

Effected also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Gain a +5 untyped bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, and Intimidate checks.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their charisma score.
• Gain the frightful presence ability, with creatures who fail the save becoming shaken for 5d6 rounds. Should they fail the save by five or more they are frightened instead.

The frightful presence is triggered as a swift action, and on use the creature may choose to either have it affect all creatures within 60ft who are not kreikiri, Created Creatures, or affect a single creature of your choice who is aware of your presence and whom you can see.

Aberrant Derangement
You become somehow odd to the perception of those around you. The effected creatures may gain features that make them (even more) unsettling to gaze upon, but just as often gain no immediate identifiable physical changes but instead their mind will always alter in perspective, making common morality meaningless to them.

Effected creatures also gain the following list of traits:
• +1 natural armour.
• Gain a +2 untyped bonus to their intelligence score unless they are mindless.
• May always be treated as the most beneficial alignment for all effects that take it into account. You may also chose to be unaffected by any alignment-based effects.

Flesh-Arsenal Realisation
the creatures body's alter to gain a more feral or otherwise heavily armed look, their natural weaponry likely enlarges and more will develop, or you could gain an appearance that more resembles that of a warrior of some nature you are accustomed to.

Effected creatures also gain the following list of traits:
• Gain your choice of a natural attack that deals d6 damage or to increase the damage of one natural attack you possess by a die category.
• Gain two bonus feats from the list of fighter bonus feats.

Additionally, should you possess ‘Living-world shintai’ all flesh nodes gain +20 hit points and web gains +10 hit points, and all creatures who possess a graft you created gain a bonus feat from the list of fighter bonus feats (chosen by you on creation of the creature or graft. They must meet the perquisites for the feat).

From-a-Single-Cell Rebirth
Perquisite: Disassociated undying-flesh (regenerative restorations)
Of the day when the Kyniteros fell, what one would note was the truly exceptional methods needed to ensure its death. And in odd mimicry this event now shall its scion be able recover from all blows, undefeated by death for having come too far to fall now.

You gain diehard as a bonus feat. Additionally, if you are killed, you are resurrected, as if by a (nonmagical) true resurrection spell some time later, as detailed below. You appear in the location of your remains, or the largest portion should they be dismembered.
The circumstances that determine if and how long it takes for you to resurrect are determined though the following method:

You select an item, material, detail and place to function as the conditions that must be met to kill you. Generally these conditions are in some way meaningful to the Kreikiri and this should be enforced by the GM to ensure no circumstances are chosen that are simply too unlikely to be thought of or otherwise occur (besides being ridiculous), such as being polymorphed into a gopher, in space, by an awakened snail. For each category you select a single condition.

Item:
First you choose an item that will meet your item condition. The item must be of a general variety (but your other conditions may change this), examples item include: A type of weapon (such as a longsword, or sling), in which case the Kreikiri must be killed with it or struck within a minute of death. Another option for an item is some small bauble or other such item, such as a holy symbol, or a ring or a standard bearing a particular groups symbol.

In the case of these items the object must be obviously worn or otherwise ‘used’ by the Kreikiri’s would-be-killer.

Alternatively you may choose magic (or similar effect such as psionics or martial disciplines to fulfill this condition, selecting a school of magic (or the systems equivalent), to be the requirement for this condition to be achieved, such as conjuration or such. In this case the Kreikiri must be killed with the effect, die while it is in effect, or be affected by it within a minute of death. This condition is met though either a directly cast spell, or by having a magic item or other source cast the spell (or equivalent).

Instead of an ‘item’ as in a physical object, this condition may contain a certain method of death in which the Kreikiri must die to meet this condition, such as being drowned.

Material:

The material condition specifies any exact details, and allows elaboration of, the item requirement (but despite the name is not always an actual special material). Generally this will require the item to either: be made of a specific special material, such as cold-iron, or otherwise a specific material such as glass. Another way this can manifest itself is that the item must fit a particular description, e.g. must contain a particular type of gemstone, be made of a certain wood or have the bones of a dragon integrated into its construction. Alternatively the item may require a specific enchantment in order to meet this requirement. This condition can also specify a type of damage, such as bludgeoning.

Should you have chosen magic (or similar) for the item category, you may select a specific type of effect that must be met by the condition selected in the item category, for example inflict spells, ect.

The item must actually be capable of achieving the selected requirement in the material condition.

Place
The place condition is a specification of an area which will meet this condition. Example areas that could meet the place condition are either: notable ‘types’ of geographical feature, both man-made and natural, such as a glacier, volcano, a type of forest, or similar notable structure existing somewhere in the world. Alternatively a specific structure may be required to meet this condition, such as a specific mountaintop, city, plane, or otherwise a meaningful area. Should the area be destroyed its previous location meets this condition

Detail
The detail requirement allows for you to select any other specific requirement for your death. This can be any effect appropriate, e.g., it could mimic the material requirement (essentially giving a second one), or otherwise add some other requirement, such as a specific detail of your would-be killer (for example a certain birthmark, some spiritual requirement such as ‘pure of heart’ or to be a member of a certain organisation or class), to only having this condition active for a particular week of the year, or when certain planets are aligned or a particular constellation is visible from your place of death.

When you die and no conditions are met you are resurrected d6 days later. Should one condition be met you resurrect d4 weeks later. Should two be met you resurrect 2d6 months later. Should three be met you resurrect d10 years later. Should all be met you do not resurrect. When you resurrect you are restored to full HP, and all ability damage/drain is removed.

The following conditions affect the length of time needed for you to resurrect. (They stack, but only one effect based on body damage may be in effect. Events after death do not increase time needed to resurrect). Should the time needed to resurrect become decades, it takes d100 before resurrection. Should it become centuries it takes d10.



Condition
Modifier


Death is from a death effect
Double the time until resurrection


Heavy damage to your body (e.g. disembowelled, limbs torn off, burnt alive, etc.)
Double the time until resurrection


Near complete destruction of your body (e.g. only a few limbs and flesh left, an arm, etc.)
Increase the length of time needed to resurrect by one ‘step’ (days-weeks-months-years-decades).


Complete destruction of your body
Increase the length of time needed to resurrect by one step (going from days-weeks-months-years-decades-centuries).


Death by a critical hit
Double the time until resurrection



When you are killed with an effect that you will resurrect from, a visually impressive effect may occur that will cause your body to be somehow preserved until you resurrect. This effect should hint at your place condition in some way, e.g. a glacier meeting the condition could mean you are ‘cocooned’ in a layer of ice or a blizzard breaks out for a few seconds after which your corpse is gone (hidden somewhere within about 50ft). Specific mechanical effects are chosen by the GM. Generally this should have few effects other than making your corpse hard to find. After the first time you resurrect with this mythos you are physically altered in a way that hints to the place condition you selected. This causes a -2 penalty on disguise checks but otherwise has no mechanical effect.
When you resurrect with this mythos, and would do so in an environment that would naturally injure or kill you as an intrinsic part of it (such in lava but not if surrounded by hostile creatures), you are immune to the effect until either 24 hours have passed or you are a mile away from the environment that triggered this effect after which you regain vulnerability to the hazard.
When you are resurrected through this mythos you retain any grafts you have, as well any items you were carrying.
Example death requirements that can be used with this mythos are listed below:

Example 1
Item: Longsword
Material: blade must be white dragon bone
Place: glacier
Detail: blade must be left impaled through the Kreikiri’s heart (or closest equivalent)

Example 2
Item: burned at the stake
Material: fire
Place: the town square of a specific town
Detail: the fire must be lit upon a live treant, who must have died from the fire by the time the fires die

Example 3
Item: executioners axe
Material: holy enchantment
Place: a specific city
Detail: the killing blow must be from a someone previously beheaded by the axe used.

noob
2015-08-08, 06:45 PM
1: Be a chicken infested commoner
2: Take levels into this class
3: Create an infinite number of chickens
4: ??????????
5: ??????????
6: Either have your gm shout at you or you have profit or neither.
Do someone knows something awesome which could be done with an infinite number of infested(with Kreikiri disease) chickens?(I have no idea)

Yasahiro
2015-08-09, 08:32 PM
Threadnecro, I have a suggestion and a question

Q: If the Meat Suit creature only gets some additional features, like wings or quills, when bonded to a host, can they have grafts? As in, it's just like a regular creature that can "Fuse" with a thing, so it technically could have grafts. But does it keep its grafts when it is worn by the host?

And suggestion:

S: I suggest that if the Meat Suit symbiont is in control or the host allows it, then the damage taken by the meat suit is transferred to host instead. It provides an idea for a meat suit that forcibly takes over creatures to serve as fuel and protection, discarding them upon their death.

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-12, 03:46 PM
Threadnecro, I have a suggestion and a question

Q: If the Meat Suit creature only gets some additional features, like wings or quills, when bonded to a host, can they have grafts? As in, it's just like a regular creature that can "Fuse" with a thing, so it technically could have grafts. But does it keep its grafts when it is worn by the host?

if you are asking if the suit can have grafts, this yes they can. also does the cost for the meat suit augment apear to be balanced? if so then I can officially add it.


S: I suggest that if the Meat Suit symbiont is in control or the host allows it, then the damage taken by the meat suit is transferred to host instead. It provides an idea for a meat suit that forcibly takes over creatures to serve as fuel and protection, discarding them upon their death.

I actually had that idea and forgot to change the wording to make it a possibility. thank you for the reminder.

Yasahiro
2015-08-12, 06:36 PM
if you are asking if the suit can have grafts, this yes they can. also does the cost for the meat suit augment apear to be balanced? if so then I can officially add it.



I actually had that idea and forgot to change the wording to make it a possibility. thank you for the reminder.

The game is happening on forums and progressing slowly, so I still do not know if the Price is Right.

*Chuckles*

Quarian Rex
2015-08-13, 06:34 PM
does the cost for the meat suit augment apear to be balanced? if so then I can officially add it.


That reminds me that I forgot to PEACH that. Here goes.



Symbiotic Creature: Cost 0

This pretty much looks good. The minor discount and the requirement of filling a magic item slot are all good balance points. The only thing that I think needs to be addressed is whether any limitations on features (like mutation limits due to Mutator level and such) are tracked seperately for symbiotic features and normal features. For example, can a symbiont created by a 4th level Kreikiri with Stable Implement of Empowerment grant its host the Fast Healing mutation as a symbiotic feature and then take the feature for itself as well, even though it can normally only be selected once by a 4th level Mutator.

This sort of thing needs a bit of clarification since the wording in Stable Implement of Empowerment could be taken either way when applied to the host (symbiotic host) of the host (the symbiont) of the feature. I'd recomend that both types of features (symbiotic and normal) share the same limits.

Another consideration is what you want the symbiont to be able to actually do while attached. The default rules state that the symbionts retain their actions, sharing their hosts' initiative. This is fine since official symbionts are so limited. When this becomes craftable you need to maybe rethink that. Attaching a few symbionts with some useful limbs/features that are not symbioticly augmented is a great way to completely break the action economy and make the DM set fire to your character sheet. I would probably suggest that when a symbiont is attached to a host that it is limited to purely mental actions (so long as it has an Intelligence score) to prevent the worst of the offenses.

You should also specify that the Ego score of the symbiont based on abilities/attacks only uses those that are Symbiotic features.

Also, this is a big enough option/gamechanger (as much as, or more so than, Man-is-Monster Restoration), especially considering the Meat Suit augment, that I would suggest that you add it as another Advanced manifestation with a prerequisite of Flesh-Altering Master.

How about rewording it as something like this?


Advanced Manifestations:
Symbiotic Creature
Perquisite: Flesh-Altering Master
This Feature is available to Created Creatures with the Symbiont subtype only (see Fiend Folio p.215). A Creature with this feature may select any of its Features, Augments and/or Evolutions; these selected traits become classified as Symbiotic Traits. These traits are still considered and treated as the type of trait they normally are for all purposes, including limitations on the total number of times it can be selected (for example, a symbiont created by a 5th level Kreikiri with Stable Implement of Empowerment can select the Fast Healing mutation a maximum of twice, making one, none, or both into Symbiotic Traits, while any not Symbiotic would apply to the Symbiont itself), the classification only has an effect within the effects of this Feature. The graft point cost of any Symbiotic Traits when creating the creature is reduced by -1, to a minimum of one point. When attached to a host, by the creature taking a full-round action, the Creature fills a single magic item slot (which one is chosen by the Kreikiri upon creation). Any magic items placed in that slot have no effect. Once bonded the Symbiont can only be removed as if it were a graft.

A Symbiotic Creature is unable to make use of any of its Symbiotic Traits, only providing them to an attached host as if they were grafts (the Augments of Features selected as Symbiotic Traits are similarly effected). While bound to a host the Symbiont is only able to take purely mental actions unless it can gain control of the host through a personality conflict (see Fiend Folio p.215).

A mindless symbiont is incapable of taking mental actions (it is mindless), however, when it is in control it will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from ‘Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry’. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the symbiont is in control.

A Symbiotic creatures' Ego score is only modified by special qualities and special attacks granted through Symbiotic Traits (as above). A Symbiont created through this mythos has its Ego score halved against anyone with levels in Kreikiri as it instinctively submits to even a shard of the Kyniteros.

I think that covers just about everything. The last part lets the Symbionts stay relevant even at higher levels, at least for the Kreikiri.




Augments:
Meat Suit Cost ?

This is cool as hell but also opens up a whole can of worms. You are essentially whipping up some gestalt rules and pulling from multiple sources to resolve it. Don't. Remove reference to polymorph. You already have half of the gestalt set up with the Symbiotic Creature feature, just build on that. Polymorph, while initially seeming like a useful shorthand for this, only confuses the matter, like symbiotic features technically becoming useless to the gestalt unless they attach to another creature.

You just need to do something like this...


While functioning as host, the host is treated as having taken on the form of more fully enhanced by the symbiont, as per a polymprph spell, with the following exceptions effects: supernatural abilities of the symbiont are also gained, Symbiotic features are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host.

Bolded are additions. This actually simplifies things. Meat Suits are just Symbionts that take all of your slots to be able to get more out of the Symbiont. This way there are no weird interactions with ploymorph spells and it is a simple continuation of the Symbiotic Creature feature.

The last bolded part, about the Symbiont needing to be larger than the host, seemed to be needed as well. I was thinking about how to make something patterened off of Venom or Carnage. The symbiont itself would obviously be an ooze but I would never say that those traits carried over post bonding. Eddie Brock still had a skeleton and could still be stabbed in the kidney and such. Same with constructs. A medium sized construct on a medium sized creature is essentially armor. Armor does not give immunity to energy drain. But a 16ft golem-mecha? Hard to ability drain that.

Anyway, if you are coated by a thin layer of a creature? No creature traits. If you can technically be considered to be an organ in a larger creature? Traits. Thoughts?



Whenever the host is damaged, the being in control (either the symbiont of the host) may choose to instead transfer any damage suffered to the symbiont.

Make this more automatic. The 'choose' part raises a lot of questions when it comes to mind control and confusion effects. How about something like this...


As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to fewer than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

I pretty much stole that wording from the Life Bond ability of the Pathfinder Summoner but I think this is exactly what is needed here.



The symbiont retains its own action while bonded to the host and can act as normal. Should the symbiont become the being in control after a personality conflict the host loses their actions for the turn, which are granted to the symbiont.

A mindless symbiont typically uses its actions to assist its host or, when it is is control will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from ‘Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry’. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the symbiont is in control.

The host and the symbiont may freely use each other’s class features and feats, sharing uses per day.

This has horrible, horrible balance problems. Granting the symbiont combat effective actions while bonded is gamebreaking. The Meat Suit augments' sole purpose is neutralize any weakness that the Kreikiri may have (even providing extra HP). Letting him double his actions as well? All bad. The only balance to this augment was that all of the effort/resources that went into the creature could not be put to use independantly, it was busy protecting the Kreikiri. Please do not remove that sole balance point. Think of them as sharing a nervous system and only one can access the physical capabilities at a time. Go nuts with any mental abilities though. Want to give the Symbiont several levels of Psion? Hell yeah! That is an extremely costly option and is balanced as such.

Also, considering the raw defensive boost of the Meat Suit I would strongly urge you to make it a seperate Fantastic Mythos. It is good enough, and has enough repercussions to warrant the change.

How about a wording change to something like this?


Kreikiri Fantastic Mythos
Meat Suit
Perquisite: Symbiotic Creature

When a Symbioyic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host.

As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to fewer than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features and feats, etc., sharing uses per day.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated the Kreikiri can make an additional Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow the Meat Suit to take over. The control durration is as per normal (24 hours) and so this is usually only done as an act of last resort.

I think that's pretty good. It seems to cover a broad range of possibilities quite well. Even the parasytic Symbiont who runs around finding hosts to drain can be done pretty slickly with a high Ego score and the base mechanics of how the HP are shared.

Considering the benefits of the Meat Suit I don't think you should add any further discounts on their construction other than what they get for turning features into Symbiotic traits.

I hope this helps.

Yasahiro
2015-08-13, 07:42 PM
I would suggest you to use the url redirecting to the post with Exalted Mythos, on the words Exalted Mythos, to avoid having your head bashed in by a rock. Kay.

Edit:

Quarian Rex, I find an issue with your HP splitting.

The intent was that a symbiont that works together with its host will try to protect him, taking the damage meant for host. HOWEVER, a parasitic one could happen, and it could be a symbiont that is actually just a regular creature with symbiont subtype, putting creatures in JUST to have them be what takes damage during fight. It also is a nice strategy, grab a creature, make it your host, dominate it through your EGO.... And enjoy not being hurt while the enemies attacks actually damage your "Host".

On top of that, here is a question for ThreadNecro. WHat action is it for a symbiont to bond with a host? Standard? Move? Swift? Full?

Necroticplague
2015-08-13, 07:54 PM
Or a creative one, if its host had Fast Healing, could direct some of its damage to the host, who will just heal it back up, essentially allowing to negate some of the damage.

Yasahiro
2015-08-13, 07:59 PM
That is a valid point, NecroticPlague.

Now, I like idea of Meat Suits being capable of having grafts attached to them. I really like it.

And, upon thinking about the Shintai, I realized something. There is a way for Kreikiri to move, at least in limited manner, while still being connected to the node or its fleshscape...

Since we are using Ozodrin features, let's remember the Puppet. Now let's remember the Long Cord and such augments. Can't they be used to have a Kreikiri regrow arms and legs, to move in a limited manner, while still being attached to Fleshscape?

I also had something important to say, but I completely forgot. I am sure it had something related to Quarian Rex's feedback.

Edit: Oh yeah, I remembered. A Kreikiri can keep their Symbiotic/Meat Suit companions or even regular creatures, upgrading them through inducing death and using Man-is-monster Restoration. Bonuses to you if you have the excellency to restore "lost" racial traits. Hell, you can just fix back the reduced stats and missing limbs or stuff

Quarian Rex
2015-08-13, 09:01 PM
Quarian Rex, I find an issue with your HP splitting.

The intent was that a symbiont that works together with its host will try to protect him, taking the damage meant for host. HOWEVER, a parasitic one could happen, and it could be a symbiont that is actually just a regular creature with symbiont subtype, putting creatures in JUST to have them be what takes damage during fight. It also is a nice strategy, grab a creature, make it your host, dominate it through your EGO.... And enjoy not being hurt while the enemies attacks actually damage your "Host".

... you say that you have an issue with the HP splitting but I cannot tell what it is.

The main point of using that form of shared HP was that it sidesteps many of the difficulties of similar methods. Having the Symbiont take damage first results in it dying first and the character being naked half way through the battle. Having them just pool HP negates the choices of making things like Fast Healing a standard feature or a Symbiotic Trait.

The added benefit was that all is fine if the Host is in full control (he has access to the Symbiots HP and it dies before he does) but if the Symbiote gains control it is more dangerous for the host since his HP is depleted first.



Now, I like idea of Meat Suits being capable of having grafts attached to them. I really like it.

Or you could just build the features you want into the Meat Suit itself, so when you start breeding your Guyvers they can grow up full powered. Either way.



Since we are using Ozodrin features, let's remember the Puppet. Now let's remember the Long Cord and such augments. Can't they be used to have a Kreikiri regrow arms and legs, to move in a limited manner, while still being attached to Fleshscape?

Yup. Even talked about it a bit in my PEACH at the top of the page. Specifically, when combined with Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery, how Puppet, Lure Trap, and Spawn can be used to manifest an 'avatar' anywhere in the Fleshscape. Between those features and Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis a Shintai user should be well represented both within and outside of his realm.



A Kreikiri can keep their Symbiotic/Meat Suit companions or even regular creatures, upgrading them through inducing death and using Man-is-monster Restoration. Bonuses to you if you have the excellency to restore "lost" racial traits. Hell, you can just fix back the reduced stats and missing limbs or stuff

Indeed. That's one of the beautiful things about Man-is-monster Restoration. Nothing has to go to waste. You can just make an old favourite more useful as time goes on. The only thing it can't do is add more HD/Levels to a creature.

Of course, this could have some interesting interactions. Making a creature who winds up serving you as a loyal bodyguard at lower levels. One day you outgrow his usefulness and he begins to fail to defend you from the stronger threats you now face. Do you just throw him away? No! You scrape him off the ground and rebuild him as flesh-armor, so that he can still protect you, make you stronger, even when he is too weak to do so on his own. Kind of sweet really.

Now repeat this same story but instead of featuring a creature you made it stars an NPC. Or a PCs family member. Or a PC. Now you have a campaign leading to a final battle where the PCs have to hack through a loved one to release them from the BBEG.

I bloody love this class.

Yasahiro
2015-08-13, 09:18 PM
Ah, it is just that the wording you put on meat suit makes it seem like there is no choice whose HP is depleted first. It is phrased in such a way that it seems like a symbiont takes damage until it has 1 hp or is dead, at which point host starts taking damage, with no choice.

I meant the idea of not creating an avatar but... Think of it. A Kreikiri is staggered and has these penalties to Fleshscape when he is uprooted... Because it is as if he detached from his body. But why can't a Flesh node to which a Kreikiri is fused Regrow legs and arms, but Instead of detaching, it just has the Kreikiri utilize the puppet cord to use their old body yet remain connected, work? It should

Necroticplague
2015-08-13, 09:40 PM
Indeed. That's one of the beautiful things about Man-is-monster Restoration. Nothing has to go to waste. You can just make an old favourite more useful as time goes on. The only thing it can't do is add more HD/Levels to a creature.

Of course, this could have some interesting interactions. Making a creature who winds up serving you as a loyal bodyguard at lower levels. One day you outgrow his usefulness and he begins to fail to defend you from the stronger threats you now face. Do you just throw him away? No! You scrape him off the ground and rebuild him as flesh-armor, so that he can still protect you, make you stronger, even when he is too weak to do so on his own. Kind of sweet really.

Now repeat this same story but instead of featuring a creature you made it stars an NPC. Or a PCs family member. Or a PC. Now you have a campaign leading to a final battle where the PCs have to hack through a loved one to release them from the BBEG.

I bloody love this class.

Basically, it's just like what you do for grafts. Once you get to a higher level, and can thus make more potent ones (due to your increased Heal check), you don't just let those old grafts stick around, their potential wasted. You Meat Reprocessing to scrape that crap off, then re-make it as a better graft. It's the same thing, just for created creatures (or party members who aren't too squeamish).

Quarian Rex
2015-08-13, 10:15 PM
Ah, it is just that the wording you put on meat suit makes it seem like there is no choice whose HP is depleted first. It is phrased in such a way that it seems like a symbiont takes damage until it has 1 hp or is dead, at which point host starts taking damage, with no choice.

You seem to have it backwards. The host takes damage first but cannot go below 1 HP so long as the Symbiont is alive. Any damage that would take the host below 1 HP goes to the Symbiont instead until it dies then the damage flows back to the host (probably killing him because he would be at 1 HP). No choice is involved, that is just the flow of the damage. A key consideration here is that you do not want choice here. Choice can be diverted, halted, and manipulated. It's kind of like choosing when your heart beats. Sounds all good till you get distracted, or get knocked out, or have a nap. Then it stops working. That bad.

This way gives you the most use out of both creatures for the most time while still prioritizing the hosts life (slightly). I really can't think of a better way to do it.

The wording looks fine to me, but I might be blind. Reread it and quote/highlight any specific wording that looks off. I'm not seeing it.




I meant the idea of not creating an avatar but... Think of it. A Kreikiri is staggered and has these penalties to Fleshscape when he is uprooted... Because it is as if he detached from his body. But why can't a Flesh node to which a Kreikiri is fused Regrow legs and arms, but Instead of detaching, it just has the Kreikiri utilize the puppet cord to use their old body yet remain connected, work? It should

Yup, those features seem tailor made for this kind of thing. Having a Puppet dangling/tethered to a Flesh Node in your Evil Lair/Tower of Bones/Abyssal Womb/Flesh Cathedral acting as your Emissary/Grand Avatar/Meat Puppet/Representative was always the idea. I keep mentioning Ever-Shifting Protean-Mastery only because it is a good way to have the Puppet appear from any part for the Fleshscape, not just from the Flesh Nodes.

If you wanted to make an actual duplicate of the Kreikiri's full body that would be something else though. It could theoretically be done with a heavily enough augmented Lure Trap but that would be one hell of a graft. By this point the Kreikiri would most likely be massively augmented so the cost would be immense. And it would probably not be able to reflect all of the Kreikiri's mythos, but it would be close.

The real question would be, why would you want to? Recreate yourself that is. Through the use of Puppets, Lure Traps, Spawn, and your companion from Anatomy-Twisting Bestial-Genesis you can customize a version of 'you' specialized for any given task. That seems to be kind of the point of the Shintai.

Yasahiro
2015-08-14, 05:13 AM
You are misunderstanding my intent.

This lack of choice does not allow for a "parasitic" symbiote that only gets hosts do that they can take the damage meant for it, as it can function like a proper creature even without them. As such, in this case I think choice for where damage goes should be granted to the being in control. This is why I want ThreadNecro to keep that part as it is, the choice of who is damaged.

As for the Puppet... No, no puppet. Listen. To uproot one'self a Kreikiri has to Regrow limbs and then DETACH itself from the Fleshscape. My idea is that he does the first step but does not detache, using a cord that Puppet feature uses... WITHOUT. THE PUPPET, in order to just remain attached to flesh scape while still moving in his real body.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-14, 11:48 AM
You are misunderstanding my intent.

This lack of choice does not allow for a "parasitic" symbiote that only gets hosts do that they can take the damage meant for it, as it can function like a proper creature even without them. As such, in this case I think choice for where damage goes should be granted to the being in control. This is why I want ThreadNecro to keep that part as it is, the choice of who is damaged.

Actually, I'm not sure you're getting the way the mechanic works. The way it functions as written works perfectly if you want to make a parasytic symbiote. All damage inflicted comes from the host first. What situation are you thinking of where a hostile symbiote would choose to do otherwise. If you want it to have the option of using the hosts last HP before its own then the host dies and the symbiote loses access to all Symbiotic Traits. That is essentially like an opponent sundering his own weapons and armor in the middle of combat. Sure it can be done but it is a silly choice and probably a sign that the DM wants to call it quits.

Please provide me with an actual situation in game where it would be an actual advantage to choose where damage goes.




As for the Puppet... No, no puppet. Listen. To uproot one'self a Kreikiri has to Regrow limbs and then DETACH itself from the Fleshscape. My idea is that he does the first step but does not detache, using a cord that Puppet feature uses... WITHOUT. THE PUPPET, in order to just remain attached to flesh scape while still moving in his real body.
I get what you are trying to say, I really do, that's why I was trying to give you options to achieve your goals with the options available. The thing is, I'm not sure that you really get how Shintai work. You are supposed to get an interesting (usually gamechanging) ability in exchange for a weird limitation that completely changes how you play the character. This Shintai is among the mildest (it does not directly enforce changes upon the Kreikiri personality) but it does have that limitation, immobility. Thread has generously added the ability to bypass that limitation for short periods of time, but at a penalty. You seem to be looking for a way to bypass the penalty almost entirely. I do not agree with that.

If you want your Kreikiri to cover the world with his Fleshscape and have full mobility then just take Creeping flesh-fortress but not Living-world shintai. Done, you have exactly what you seem to want. The Shintai is not mandatory.

If you want the power of the Shintai, then accept the burden of the Shintai.

Yasahiro
2015-08-14, 12:37 PM
Actually, I'm not sure you're getting the way the mechanic works. The way it functions as written works perfectly if you want to make a parasytic symbiote. All damage inflicted comes from the host first. What situation are you thinking of where a hostile symbiote would choose to do otherwise. If you want it to have the option of using the hosts last HP before its own then the host dies and the symbiote loses access to all Symbiotic Traits. That is essentially like an opponent sundering his own weapons and armor in the middle of combat. Sure it can be done but it is a silly choice and probably a sign that the DM wants to call it quits.

Please provide me with an actual situation in game where it would be an actual advantage to choose where damage goes.



I get what you are trying to say, I really do, that's why I was trying to give you options to achieve your goals with the options available. The thing is, I'm not sure that you really get how Shintai work. You are supposed to get an interesting (usually gamechanging) ability in exchange for a weird limitation that completely changes how you play the character. This Shintai is among the mildest (it does not directly enforce changes upon the Kreikiri personality) but it does have that limitation, immobility. Thread has generously added the ability to bypass that limitation for short periods of time, but at a penalty. You seem to be looking for a way to bypass the penalty almost entirely. I do not agree with that.

If you want your Kreikiri to cover the world with his Fleshscape and have full mobility then just take Creeping flesh-fortress but not Living-world shintai. Done, you have exactly what you seem to want. The Shintai is not mandatory.

If you want the power of the Shintai, then accept the burden of the Shintai.

Here is the situation. A creature that only has, I dunno, ONE Symbiotic Trait, with all others being the creature's own. That way, if the host dies, the creature only loses access to its additional HP pool/cannon fodder, and the feats and features of the host. But the creature could still have full HP if it sent all damage to the host.

Except even with the cord, Kreikiri's movements would be limited to the length of the cord, starting from the site of actual body. And it could have rules similar to Hydra's heads severing, making it so that if a Kreikiri wants to have some mobility, yet be non-uprooted, he has to take risks.

Necroticplague
2015-08-14, 01:31 PM
That's quiet a bit if a excessive new rules you want for something you can already emulate to an imperfect degree (just make a puppet as normal, they're pretty customizable as is). Why add anything more to it? A mere bit you extend will never be as powerful as your center of conciousness, and there are already several mutations and augments you can use to make avatars (in addition To created creatures).

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-14, 05:25 PM
ok, i'm back, sorry for the relatively significant amount of time I've been missing.

to begin with I will reply to Rex's comments and suggestions on the Symbiotic Creature Feature.

first, to go with your suggestion to make the meat suit into a mythos, how about I just make the whole thing into one, base augment and all?

to continue on, so if I am following, the suggestion is to only allow the symbionts the ability to use mental actions while bonded, I can understand the reason for this, so what do you think about the following ideas:

first add an augment that allows the symbiont to use its move or standard action for a non-mental action, so it can hit a creature with a single natural attack or some similar ability but cant full attack or such. I should probably make it rather pricey.

second allow a Meat Suits who are in control after a personality conflict to make physical actions at the cost of dealing either 1d4 or 1d6 damage to the host as the suits body parts rip their way out of the host to be used or force their body to be twisted in unnatural ways. gives a trick to the more parasitic symbionts to use and adds the fact that a suit in control it significantly more dangerous that the sum of its parts, so you have to ensure the loyalty of the suit as well (e.g. a mindless one on the rampage would be more dangerous, or one with an intelligence score could go off on its own agenda).

to set the sorts of ideas this would allow think of the host being torn at by the burrowing tentacles that attach them to the symbiont as they pull out to swat at an enemy, or the host being scalded by the internal glands that allow a breath weapon (granted via mutation)

as for your suggestions on changing Meat Suit, I like the ideas. as to word the the augment in a manner where it offers the more parasitically inclined suits the option to use the hosts HP instead of theirs how about adding wording to the following effect 'a suit in control after a personality conflict may use to instead deal whatever hit point damage they suffer to the host instead should they personalty choose to do so. should they be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated, it will choose to damage the host by default unless otherwise persuaded by the being altering its mental processes.'

also something I have just noticed if I an understanding it correctly your suggested wording for the feature and augment means that the Meat suit is only granting the Symbiotic traits to the host, instead of all Features, Augments, Mutations, and such. The idea was that it essentially grants the host the suits abilities (note: its late and I'm tired when writing this so I cam currently unsure if I am being coherent).

also just to double check we're one the same page with the symbiont rules and such the idea to my understanding is that as symbionts act on the same initiative step as the host, so with these created symbionts it would then do whatever that symbiont was designed to do, but now benefiting from its symbiotic traits in order to do so.

I will also be adding the alphabetized legendary mythos.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-14, 10:29 PM
That's quiet a bit if a excessive new rules you want for something you can already emulate to an imperfect degree...
Yup, my thinking as well.




first, to go with your suggestion to make the meat suit into a mythos, how about I just make the whole thing into one, base augment and all?

Personally, I think it would be best to split them up. Having the initial symbionts be an advanced manifestation of Monster-Making Beast-Lord gives an interesting upgrade/sidegrade option to normal grafts. In exchange for being much more expensive, taking up a magic item slot, and having an Ego score you get grafts that you can breed (saving resources in the long run) and that self-attach (no attachment check and so potentially more powerful grafts, not to mention the ability to sell 'grafts' to middlemen). I think that is a pretty fair trade and so should be available early.

The Meat Suit, by comparison, is a pretty hefty upgrade no mater how you look at it. It is much easier to boost the stats of a created creature than to add stat boosts via grafts, so the take-the-best stat sharing is a huge boost. Throw in the 'shared' hp and and BAB (things that are extremely hard to get otherwise) and the Meat Suit comes out being an extremely potent ability. For that I think it should be a Fantastic Mythos. Available mid-game and scaling with available resources.

I think it adds a nice progression as well. It lets you play aroung with Symbiotes for a while before seeing their real potential.




to continue on, so if I am following, the suggestion is to only allow the symbionts the ability to use mental actions while bonded, I can understand the reason for this, so what do you think about the following ideas:

first add an augment that allows the symbiont to use its move or standard action for a non-mental action, so it can hit a creature with a single natural attack or some similar ability but cant full attack or such. I should probably make it rather pricey.

See, I'm still quite leery of this. I like the concept but it is really open to abuse. Even if you limit a symbiont to a single attack in a melee round (through whatever action mechanics) that is now an extra attack that needs to be balanced around. You can have a symbiont in each magic item slot. There are 12 magic item slots. That is an extra 12 attacks a round on top of the max number of natural attacks allowed through grafts. Since each graft is constructed seperately you can bet that each of those 12 extra attacks will be beastly. Even if you make the augment allowing it costly, that cost will be paid gladly. The benefit is too high.

And that is really the problem here. That addition would make combat symbionts the only real option. Everything else would be weak by comparison. An option that is so good that it must be chosen is a generally poor addition from a balance perspective.

There were a couple of other thoughts that I had on the symbionts. One was that any class levels added via Transient Skill should directly add to the Ego score. Whether it should be 1 per level or 2 per level I'm not sure. If you have a Psion riding on your spine there should be a greater chance of it going rogue.

The other thought was that maybe every time a symbiont is created it has a Character Trait (from Unearthed Arcana p.86), chosen by its creator, that it applies to itself and to its host (the same trait from multiple sources would not stack). This could be an interesting way to show the symbionts influence on the host, and also provide an interesting potential trigger for personality conflicts. For example, and Aggressive symbiont (granting a bonus to iniative but a penalty to AC) might provoke a personality conflict if the host stopped attacking a foe (because he surrendered, etc.).

Could be interesting.




second allow a Meat Suits who are in control after a personality conflict to make physical actions at the cost of dealing either 1d4 or 1d6 damage to the host as the suits body parts rip their way out of the host to be used or force their body to be twisted in unnatural ways. gives a trick to the more parasitic symbionts to use and adds the fact that a suit in control it significantly more dangerous that the sum of its parts, so you have to ensure the loyalty of the suit as well (e.g. a mindless one on the rampage would be more dangerous, or one with an intelligence score could go off on its own agenda).

to set the sorts of ideas this would allow think of the host being torn at by the burrowing tentacles that attach them to the symbiont as they pull out to swat at an enemy, or the host being scalded by the internal glands that allow a breath weapon (granted via mutation)

I see where you're going here but it really isn't necessary, I don't think. When the symbiont wins the personality conflict it gets full control of their shared organism for 24 hrs. That is a lot of time for shenanigans. No point in making the host take damage every time the parasyte tried to do something. That actually makes a parasytic symbiont less dangerous as it would only be able to take so many actions before its host disintegrated.

That would also add a bunch of questions without good answers.

"My Symbiont lets me breathe fire no problem, right?"
"Right"
"Then why are my lungs taking damage from it when the Symbiont is in control?"
"... because I don't like you... ?"

No need to start changing the way symbionts work just because the symbiont wants to be a jerk. The proposed wording already makes that a strong threat.




as for your suggestions on changing Meat Suit, I like the ideas. as to word the the augment in a manner where it offers the more parasitically inclined suits the option to use the hosts HP instead of theirs how about adding wording to the following effect 'a suit in control after a personality conflict may use to instead deal whatever hit point damage they suffer to the host instead should they personalty choose to do so. should they be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated, it will choose to damage the host by default unless otherwise persuaded by the being altering its mental processes.'

That is the point of the current wording though. The host is always damaged first. The hosts HP will always be the first to go and the symbiotic HP buffer is only tapped when all but 1 of the hosts HP have been exhausted. Regardless of who is in control, if the symbionts HP are being damaged the host has already been reduced to a single HP. Even when the host is in control the symbiont is already using him as a HP buffer.

The point of this being an automatic effect as opposed to being player choice is that it leaves the player in more potential danger. If the one in control can decide where the damage goes then a player will make sure that the symbiont will always be drained first and the player will always be at max possible strength. With the damage flow being automatic, specifically with the wording I have suggested, the player has to first weaken themselves before they can tap into the additional survivability of the symbiont. Should something go wrong, the symbiont goes rogue or get disintegrated/teleported off of him, then the player is left at his most vulnerable, naked and with a single HP. The price of relying on the power of a Meat Suit symbiont.

I think that's a pretty interesting balance point. The only thing that I might add would be to say that a Symbiont in control of its host has the option to damage the host (using any form of attack available to it) without transferring the damage back to itself (and this would be the only way to bypass the damage transfer). That way, a predatory symbiont could acquire hosts and leave them bleeding out and unconscious when it is done with them.




also something I have just noticed if I an understanding it correctly your suggested wording for the feature and augment means that the Meat suit is only granting the Symbiotic traits to the host, instead of all Features, Augments, Mutations, and such. The idea was that it essentially grants the host the suits abilities (note: its late and I'm tired when writing this so I cam currently unsure if I am being coherent).

Yup, only Symbiotic Traits (and shared ability scores, BAB, Natural AC, etc.) are available when the Meat Suit bonds, that was intentional. This opens up a lot more possibilities.

My thinking on this is much like my suggestion to open up the larval stage options in Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration. It allows you to have very different kinds of creatures when it is bound to a host versus being unbound.

All the creatures features are Symbiotic Traits? Looks like you have yourself a Guyver there. Most features are Symbiotic Traits but the few that aren't are good for climbing, grappling, and stealth? Hello Venom, feel like breeding me up a Carnage? The creature has a full compliment of both normal personal features and an interesting array of Symbiotic Traits? Now the host can bond with his combat mount to become a walking Juggernaut, like a biological variant of Robotech mecha or a Power Ranger.

Like I said, having only the Symbiotic Traits active when a Meat Suit is bound provides a lot of options. It provides a clear transition from normal Symbionts to Meat Suit Symbionts. They essentially use the same rules.

Also, if the Meat Suit doesn't need Symbiotic Traits to share its abilities with a host, why does it even need a host?




also just to double check we're one the same page with the symbiont rules and such the idea to my understanding is that as symbionts act on the same initiative step as the host, so with these created symbionts it would then do whatever that symbiont was designed to do, but now benefiting from its symbiotic traits in order to do so.

I am not quite sure what you mean here. If you're referring to what happens when a symbiont gains control after a personality conflict, then yes, the symbiont would act on that characters initiative modifier, etc. It would have all of the characters normal abilities when bound to the symbiont (including access to the characters class and racial abilities, etc.) but it is just someone else in the drivers seat.

I would say that any features that were added that were not Symbiotic Traits (other than ability scores, Natural AC, and other automatically shared traits) would be suppressed when bonded. If there is anything that you really want the symbiont to have both when bound and unbound you can just buy it twice. No one ever said that autonomous living power armor should be cheap.

Now that I think about it, I think you should remove movement rate/type from the things the host gets from the Meat Suit. Any movement enhancements can be added as Symbiotic Traits but if you keep it seperate you can have the unattached symbiont use movement types that the host-bonded one would not to catch new hosts unawares or as suprise escape method when in danger. It just seems to add more options, and that is always more interesting.

Yasahiro
2015-08-15, 07:05 AM
Okay, I have no issues now with previous things, as you considered option for symbiont, if it is in control, to redirect all damage to host. But I have a few things to say.

1. You said that through Transient Skilland such the host can have a Psion on his spine... But then it makes it so that only Psion symbionts are created as only manifesting a power is purely a mental action. That makes Transient Skill only work with Meat Suits... Unless even with regular symbionts they share class features.

2. The thing about separate traits, while that is a good idea, is that one of limitations you suggested earlier makes it sort of... Bad. Mainly due to the limit on how many times a creature can have a certain mutation. For Example, the Fast healing mutation increases significantly in power as a person has more of it. But what if one wants to do a creature that has all its abilities when without host, but limited, where upon taking the host the limitations drop?

I think the best way to solve this is to keep both traits, Symbiotic and Unbound, as two separate pools. As in, if the symbiont has 5 HD, it can have two Fast Healing mutations when Unbound... And two when With a Host. Or only have one when Unbound. It would make it so that creating Symbionts that are both strong with or without hosts is... Possible, just expensive.

3. I disagree with movement rates not being shared with host. Eddie Brock couldn't websling on his own but he could as Venom. Or for example, imagine I have a speedy large Mecha that can go fast. Why would having a pilot limit him to pilot's walking speed?

My idea of having two separate pools of abilities actually works better in this case, too

Quarian Rex
2015-08-15, 01:50 PM
Okay, I have no issues now with previous things, as you considered option for symbiont, if it is in control, to redirect all damage to host.

The wording always redirected all the damage to the host. Now it just clarifies that the symbiont can finish off the host without killing itself.




1. You said that through Transient Skilland such the host can have a Psion on his spine... But then it makes it so that only Psion symbionts are created as only manifesting a power is purely a mental action. That makes Transient Skill only work with Meat Suits... Unless even with regular symbionts they share class features.

Well, technically, any appropriately Stilled/Silenced spell would qualify, as well as most Shadow mysteries (all with Still Mystery), etc. The fact that psionics are easier to use for this is something I don't mind as it fits thematically with the whole aberration/fleshy weirdness. As far as balance goes, that is not much of a concern. Even adding ten levels of Transient Skill costs over one hundred thousand graft points. That sort of thing is well under the DMs power to control.

As for sharing class levels, the symbiont shares yours when in control, the host does not have access to its class abilities at any time. Also, the symbiont can take purely mental actions while the host is in control, the host can take no actions while the symbiont is in control (but still maintains awareness of what is happening). Why is this? The symbiont knows how to be a symbiont. The host has no idea how to be second fiddle in his own body.

I'm not sure why you would think that Transient Skill would only work with Meat Suits. Elaborate?




2. The thing about separate traits, while that is a good idea, is that one of limitations you suggested earlier makes it sort of... Bad. Mainly due to the limit on how many times a creature can have a certain mutation. For Example, the Fast healing mutation increases significantly in power as a person has more of it. But what if one wants to do a creature that has all its abilities when without host, but limited, where upon taking the host the limitations drop?

This is a completely valid criticism and an oversight on my part. This is one of the problems I'm having with the Meat Suit, there are so many fiddly aspects to take into consideration that there are few quick fixes. Specifically with Fast Healing I had originally made a mental note that the bulk of the Fast Healing mutations should go to the Symbiont because it was more vulnerable but then forgot about that later.

The problem here is that, especially for the more predatory/autonomous symbionts, they are going to have a bunch of features (even before trying to get fancy) that have no real place once bound to the host. A mobile symbiont will need legs to get to a host, right? If all the features stay active then does the host have to look like a centaur? Also, if the symbiont/Meat Suit has all these extra limbs (that are not for the host to use) then why can't it take actions with them (and break the action economy)?

What about adding a new augment for symbionts called Dominant Trait? It can only be added to passive features (like Fast Healing, Energy Resistance, etc.), not any capable of providing physical actions (limbs, attacks, movement rates), that are not also Symbiotic Traits. Dominant Traits are features that are active for the symbiont only regardless of whether it is bound or unbound to a host and cost 1 point more than normal features.

That would allow appropriate use of abilities without just mashing everything together. Thoughts?




3. I disagree with movement rates not being shared with host. Eddie Brock couldn't websling on his own but he could as Venom. Or for example, imagine I have a speedy large Mecha that can go fast. Why would having a pilot limit him to pilot's walking speed?

You are making my point for me with Eddie Brock. The symbiont could only websling when it was bound to a host, it was a Symbiotic Trait. Unattached the symbiont only kindof slinked/gooped around.

As for the Mecha, It doesn't have to be limited to the pilots walking speed. Add some Symbiotic Traits to enhance that movement.

I'll ask you a counter question though. Why can't a Meat Suit move faster when not attached to a host? Ever seen The Vision of Escaflowne? Dude rides around on top of a flying dragon mecha that then turns into a non-flying humanoid combat mecha. Meat Suits have the same potential for those kinds of interesting possibilities so long as we split the movement modes.

Remember, not sharing the movement modes does not add any limitations (anything not shared can be purchased) but it does add so many options.

Yasahiro
2015-08-15, 03:43 PM
This is a completely valid criticism and an oversight on my part. This is one of the problems I'm having with the Meat Suit, there are so many fiddly aspects to take into consideration that there are few quick fixes. Specifically with Fast Healing I had originally made a mental note that the bulk of the Fast Healing mutations should go to the Symbiont because it was more vulnerable but then forgot about that later.

The problem here is that, especially for the more predatory/autonomous symbionts, they are going to have a bunch of features (even before trying to get fancy) that have no real place once bound to the host. A mobile symbiont will need legs to get to a host, right? If all the features stay active then does the host have to look like a centaur? Also, if the symbiont/Meat Suit has all these extra limbs (that are not for the host to use) then why can't it take actions with them (and break the action economy)?

What about adding a new augment for symbionts called Dominant Trait? It can only be added to passive features (like Fast Healing, Energy Resistance, etc.), not any capable of providing physical actions (limbs, attacks, movement rates), that are not also Symbiotic Traits. Dominant Traits are features that are active for the symbiont only regardless of whether it is bound or unbound to a host and cost 1 point more than normal features.

That would allow appropriate use of abilities without just mashing everything together. Thoughts?

Although having two separate pools of abilities DOES allow for even the meat suit to work. When unbound, the symbiont has its own features, when bound to a host, it is a host + Symbiotic features. It is just that for purposes of calculating cost of mutations(which is increasing with every mutation) both pools count as separate creatures, so that putting one mutation as regular is 4 and putting another as symbiotic is also 4. And for purposes of determining how many times a symbiont can take a thing, similarly both pools count as separate creatures.

As for the leg/mobility, it's like... A predatory/autonomous symbiont has its own limbs, which are in the Unbound pool of abilities. Once it binds to a host, it loses access to that pool of abilities and uses the Symbiotic Traits pool of abilities and features. You ask what happens to these legs? They retract, coil around host, anything. It is a bad example but do you know all these Power Ranger special transformations for Red Ranger where it has another creature serve as his armor? The legs retract or do something else. It's mostly matter of fluff what they do.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-15, 04:38 PM
Although having two separate pools of abilities DOES allow for even the meat suit to work. When unbound, the symbiont has its own features, when bound to a host, it is a host + Symbiotic features.

This is exactly how it already works with Symbiotic Traits as written. We are not worying about that. It is already covered. What was not covered were effects that you wanted to be active only on the symbiont while it was bound to the host. That is delt with Dominant Traits proposed in my last post.




It is just that for purposes of calculating cost of mutations(which is increasing with every mutation) both pools count as separate creatures, so that putting one mutation as regular is 4 and putting another as symbiotic is also 4. And for purposes of determining how many times a symbiont can take a thing, similarly both pools count as separate creatures.

See, this seems to be the crux of your objection. You seem to want to break the max mutator limit when using Evolutions as features. I don't think you should. You are making a symbiont. You are choosing to share one beings power between two creatures. Make a choice. Want them to both have maximum possible Fast Healing from a single symbiont? Nope. Make a choice. Who do you prioritize? Choose. Want to have a max strength Elemental Lance shooting out of the symbiont when it is alone as well as when it is bound to a host? Nope. Choose who gets the better blasty. Want to give the host the ability to make a Verdant Servant while still letting the symbiont control its own but you aren't high enough level to actually maintain two? No man. Choose who gets the sidekick.

Symbionts (and especially Meat Suits) are useful enough as it. There is no reason to double up on their utility and let them do absolutely everything, in the best possible way, in every possible form. And choices are good. Make some choices.

Yasahiro
2015-08-15, 08:24 PM
This is exactly how it already works with Symbiotic Traits as written. We are not worying about that. It is already covered. What was not covered were effects that you wanted to be active only on the symbiont while it was bound to the host. That is delt with Dominant Traits proposed in my last post.



See, this seems to be the crux of your objection. You seem to want to break the max mutator limit when using Evolutions as features. I don't think you should. You are making a symbiont. You are choosing to share one beings power between two creatures. Make a choice. Want them to both have maximum possible Fast Healing from a single symbiont? Nope. Make a choice. Who do you prioritize? Choose. Want to have a max strength Elemental Lance shooting out of the symbiont when it is alone as well as when it is bound to a host? Nope. Choose who gets the better blasty. Want to give the host the ability to make a Verdant Servant while still letting the symbiont control its own but you aren't high enough level to actually maintain two? No man. Choose who gets the sidekick.

Symbionts (and especially Meat Suits) are useful enough as it. There is no reason to double up on their utility and let them do absolutely everything, in the best possible way, in every possible form. And choices are good. Make some choices.

Because the autonomous/predatory symbiont would kinda suffer due to it. I mean, I get that having a second HP pool would be quite powerful, but... hm... Well okay. It's late here and I am starting to not word good. Would it be possible for it to at least slightly raise the mutation limit slightly on the symbiont?

Once I can, I will be back and talk properly

EDIT: AND CAN WE FINALLY GET A THING? WHat action it is for a symbiont to attach itself to a host. If a parasitic symbiont wants to take people for health, that should be known.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-16, 12:04 AM
Because the autonomous/predatory symbiont would kinda suffer due to it.

How so? I can't see how it would be a problem in any actual way.

Yasahiro
2015-08-16, 01:53 PM
How so? I can't see how it would be a problem in any actual way.

Here is why...

"Rawr, I have all these physical mutations and all when I have no host, up to the mutation limit! Now let's put a host inside me so I can use their health... WAIT, I DON'T HAVE THESE MUTATIONS ANYMORE!"

I mean, some can be replicated by ozodrin features, but some evolutionist stuff is not just pure passive and all

Quarian Rex
2015-08-16, 05:49 PM
Here is why...

"Rawr, I have all these physical mutations and all when I have no host, up to the mutation limit! Now let's put a host inside me so I can use their health... WAIT, I DON'T HAVE THESE MUTATIONS ANYMORE!"

But symbionts are supposed to need a host. Thay are an alternate form of augmentation for the host. That is the point of symbionts. Having Max-Power™ with a host and without is not very symbiotic. Even the more aggressive symbionts (like Venom and Carnage) are only really powerful when attached to a host (using Symbiotic Traits) and are relatively weak without one. Because they are symbionts.

Everything that I have proposed fits any of the concepts that you have mentioned. The only unmet demand I'm seeing you come back to is this...


... I have all these physical mutations ... up to the mutation limit!

You want max capabilities at all times. I already responsed to this a couple of posts back. Reread it. Make some choices. The game is better when you do.

EdroGrimshell
2015-08-16, 06:35 PM
You want max capabilities at all times. I already responsed to this a couple of posts back. Reread it. Make some choices. The game is better when you do.

He's talking about a symbiont only in the loosest sense, a creature that is only a symbiont in the fact it can bond to a creature. It uses the "Host" like a battery, not a host. It's a different take on a creature using existing rules.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-16, 07:42 PM
He's talking about a symbiont only in the loosest sense, a creature that is only a symbiont in the fact it can bond to a creature. It uses the "Host" like a battery, not a host. It's a different take on a creature using existing rules.
Oh, I get it completely, but you can only bend a given bit of crunch so far to fit a niche concept before it negatively impacts the original application. The Meat Suit seems to be a potent enough option already. I just think it is better to err on the side of caution rather than adding extra rules that are so obviously exploitable.

I must say, again, that everything in the predator-symbiont concept is fully achievable in the proposed rules. You just need to decide if you want your creation to be more powerful when either bound or unbound, or to have both states be evenly powered.

Necroticplague
2015-08-16, 09:01 PM
If you want it to be strong without a host, and even stronger with a host, it seems easy enough to just pay a bit less then double to have all its traits as both bound and unbound, then add on a few extra bound traits.

Yasahiro
2015-08-18, 06:29 AM
If you want it to be strong without a host, and even stronger with a host, it seems easy enough to just pay a bit less then double to have all its traits as both bound and unbound, then add on a few extra bound traits.

Yeah. I mean, technically a Kreikiri can impose restriction on the augments and such. Mutations over the limit go dormant, but one can make it so that when bound to a host, the mutations from being without one are restricted, going dormant, making it so that the unbound one are not over the limit.

Edit: ThreadNecro, for Exalted Mythos I suggest you do THIS:

Exalted Mythos (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19642555&postcount=136)

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-18, 07:04 PM
ok I have added a link to the Exalted mythos.

also an in-process version on the update to Symbiotic Creature including currently discussed ideas and rectifying unanswered questions (e.g. the action to attach the symbiont) (I am yet to do Meat Suit):

Symbiotic Creature

Perquisite: Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)

This Feature is available to Created Creatures with the Symbiont subtype only (see Fiend Folio p.215). A Creature with this feature may select any of its Features, Augments and/or Evolutions; these selected traits become classified as Symbiotic Traits. These traits are still considered and treated as the type of trait they normally are for all purposes, including limitations on the total number of times it can be selected (for example, a Symbiont created by a 5th level Kreikiri with Stable Implement of Empowerment can select the Fast Healing mutation a maximum of twice, making one, none, or both into Symbiotic Traits, while any not Symbiotic would apply to the Symbiont itself), the classification only has an effect within the effects of this Feature. The graft point cost of any Symbiotic Traits when creating the creature is reduced by -1, to a minimum of one point. When attached to a host, by the creature taking a full-round action, the Creature fills a single magic item slot (which one is chosen by the Kreikiri upon creation). Any magic items placed in that slot have no effect.

Attaching to a creature is a full round action performed by the Symbiont, unattacheing is also a full round action performed by the Symbiont . The Host may try to forcibly remove the Symbiont as a full round action, in which the host and Symbiont make an opposed grapple check, with the Symbiont calculating its bonus as if it was one size category larger than its host (it should be noted that when the Symbiont notices what its host is doing a personality conflict will likely immediately occur, forcing the host to make the save before the grapple check). If the host wins the check then they successfully pull out the Symbiont, dealing 1d4 constitution damage to themselves, and depositing the Creature into an adjacent space.

A Symbiotic Creature is unable to make use of any of its Symbiotic Traits, only providing them to an attached host as if they were grafts (the Augments of Features selected as Symbiotic Traits are similarly affected). While bound to a host the Symbiont is only able to take purely mental actions unless it can gain control of the host through a personality conflict (see Fiend Folio p.215).

A mindless Symbiont is incapable of taking mental actions (it is mindless), however, when it is in control it will generally go on the rampage, as per a mindless creature from ‘Storm-of-cuts life altering flurry’. The host is fully aware but cannot act in any way when the Symbiont is in control. On creation the Symbiont automatically gains a single Character Trait (http://http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm) (see Unearthed Arcana) that both they and their host benefits from, and that helps determine when a personality conflict would occur, e.g. an Aggressive Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host stopped attacking a still living foe, or a Cautious Symbiont might provoke a personality conflict if the host rushed ahead without taking care for to spot traps.

A Symbiotic creatures' Ego score is only modified by special qualities and special attacks granted through Symbiotic Traits (as above), as well as increasing by +1 per class level the Symbiont posesses. A Symbiont created through this mythos has its Ego score halved against anyone with levels in Kreikiri as it instinctively submits to even a shard of the Kyniteros.

Augments:
Universal Trait Cost 1
Select a single Feature, Augment, or Mutation that is a Symbiotic Trait. The Symbiont may benefit from it as it was not a Symbiotic Trait when not attached to a host. The trait selected cannot be one what requires activation or uses an action (so a Breath Weapon Mutation cannot be selected but a Flesh Feature or a Fast Healing Mutation can).


please make me aware of any errors in this.

Necroticplague
2015-08-18, 07:27 PM
Your link to Character Traits is broken.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-18, 10:40 PM
Symbiotic Creature

I still prefer the idea of making the symbiont make a choice between empowering itself or its host but *shrugs* your call. Needs playtesting.

As far as the wording, the only thing I can recomend is something like this...


A Symbiotic creatures' Ego score is only modified by special qualities and special attacks granted through Symbiotic Traits (as above), as well as increasing by +1 per class level the Symbiont posesses (such as any added through Transient Skill). A Symbiont created through this mythos has its Ego score halved against anyone with levels in Kreikiri as it instinctively submits to even a shard of the Kyniteros.

Bolded mine. Just so it is clear that the symbiont doesn't normally have class levels.

Necroticplague
2015-08-19, 12:36 AM
Bolded mine. Just so it is clear that the symbiont doesn't normally have class levels.

I would if it used to be someone, and your made them a symbiont through man-is-monster restoration.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-19, 12:51 AM
I would if it used to be someone, and your made them a symbiont through man-is-monster restoration.

Indeed, but that wouldn't fall under the 'normally' part. Just thought it was important since the original wording could have implied that the Symbiont feature was providing 'Symbiont' class levels.

SodaDarwin
2015-08-19, 04:23 AM
Ohwow, I have such mixed feeling here. On the one hand, I love the idea of a potentially heroic monstrosity who's powers are centered around spreading and growing and consuming. Makes it real hard to justify still being a good guy.
On the other hand, this is even more complicated than the Ozodrin. Not saying that's bad, just makes my brain hurt.

Necroticplague
2015-08-19, 12:13 PM
What part of it's complex? It's as straightforward as any other Mythos class.

SodaDarwin
2015-08-19, 05:31 PM
Needing to reference other classes when using Graft Points, using them can get to be a bit rough on the brain for some. Again, not a bad thing, actually rather a good kind of complexity, with depth.
Like the really big thread for Mythos classes is titled, Mythos classes aren't exactly simple.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-19, 08:50 PM
What part of it's complex? It's as straightforward as any other Mythos class.

To be fair, it's not necessarily overly mechanically complex (once you get used to referencing Ozodrin and Evolutionist features the graft-making/creature-making is pretty intuitive) but the complexity of adding it to the game can be staggering. The features and capabilities of this class can be so far reaching that it might be intimidating trying to figure out where to even start.

You're in luck though. The class itself is made in a compartmentalized mannner and so you don't need to drown in all of the possibilities at once. In fact, this is one of those classes that I really would recomend someone starting from a very low level, as opposed to brining it into a mid-level campaign.

Start with graft making and play with that for a few levels. Give the DM and the party time to get used to the idea in play. Try and tailor some grafts to the other players so they are subtly helped instead of immediately trying to make everything look like the Womb-Spawn-Of-Cthulhu. Then move on to making some mounts that can survive a combat encounter. Maybe some nocturnal guard beasts so the casters can get a full nights sleep. Look to fill gaps in gameplay with problem solving grafts/creatures.

Just don't try to min/max too much/too soon. You (the player) may have figured out how to make a 8,000 man self-replicating supersoldier army in a week using only a troll corpse and a dozen head of cattle but don't throw that at the DM/other players right away. Your character is still just figuring out the limits of his powers. Use that in game to your/your groups advantage.

Starting smaller and letting the complexity grow organically (ha!) can go a long way to easing the integration of the virtually unlimited capabilities of this class into a game.

Yasahiro
2015-08-20, 08:00 AM
Similarly, if a GM is afraid of the augments Kreikiri can give being too strong, it could be done in similar way that the evolutionist is. Kreikiri has access to level-locked augments when they reach that level.

I would suggest also the Magikeeper update of Ozodrin, as it looks overall better, but make sure to keep the Augments of Tentacle, which require same level as tentacle, as requiring no level instead.

noob
2015-08-20, 05:32 PM
"And that is really the problem here. That addition would make combat symbionts the only real option. Everything else would be weak by comparison. An option that is so good that it must be chosen is a generally poor addition from a balance perspective. "
This is why I shun raging and full round attacks with a barbarian it is completely unbalanced they have no choice.(This is why I like TOB classes multi-classed with priest there is less imbalance than with barbarian or than with wizard where clearly the best option is to learn all the spells then to use spells instead of hitting people with a club)

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-21, 04:05 PM
ok, for ways to change Symbiotic Creature what if I change the price of the Universal Trait augment I added to three graft points (or four)? im thinking it should hep make a middle ground to the predatory/parasitic symbiont concept, and the choosing between empowering the host or symbiont viewpoint. it still costs a fair bit to make it almost as powerful both attached to a host and not, but it is more reasonably priced.

EdroGrimshell
2015-08-21, 04:28 PM
ok, for ways to change Symbiotic Creature what if I change the price of the Universal Trait augment I added to three graft points (or four)? im thinking it should hep make a middle ground to the predatory/parasitic symbiont concept, and the choosing between empowering the host or symbiont viewpoint. it still costs a fair bit to make it almost as powerful both attached to a host and not, but it is more reasonably priced.

I'd say limit those traits to a maximum of what half your effective mutator level would let you get so you can pay once for up to half of the number of mutations you could gain then pay for the other half for when you're bonded.

Yasahiro
2015-08-21, 05:59 PM
I was thinking...

Due to many ways a Kreikiri can get a lot of graft points quickly, either through creating creatures from it, abusing regeneration, or just buying cows and stuff, they can create really powerful things.

Things that could be more powerful than mythic characters of the kreikiri's level at the time he is making the thing, why? I will explain in a bit.


My idea is that limiting what mutations and how many can be given by Kreikiri, using Kreikiri's level for purposes of creating such grafts or creatures with those? That is a nice idea, it makes sense. Mutations are powerful. However, you made it so they have access to all, even level-locked, stuff from Ozodrin. And Ozodrin's late-level augments for anything are... powerful, if I can say anything about it. Really powerful. As in, STUPIDLY powerful. But then, not being able to give a creature a sting attack or spike or flesh or such due to being level locked is also not fun

So here is what I suggest. Have Kreikiri access to all features, but have the level-lock of augments still apply. The basic augments that are provided without requiring a level, or if they require same level as the feature, are still okay to use at any time, even as Kreikiri is at level 1. That will allow for wide variety of creature while keeping them from being too powerful.

Technically, some augments can be allowed on case by case basis. The Engorged and Condensed Flesh, have that be allowed from start or lower level, but make it so that how many times a Kreikiri can give them, what size can they make the creature, is determined by Kreikiri's level in some way... Or just give free reign with it, as paying for stats and such will still take a lot of graft points and penalties can offset things, but yeah... Since I doubt Kreikiri would be unable to create smaller or bigger creatures. Maybe make these augments have different costs than the ones provided on ozodrin thread? Dunno.

Necroticplague
2015-08-21, 06:39 PM
I was thinking...

Due to many ways a Kreikiri can get a lot of graft points quickly, either through creating creatures from it, abusing regeneration, or just buying cows and stuff, they can create really powerful things.

Things that could be more powerful than mythic characters of the kreikiri's level at the time he is making the thing, why? I will explain in a bit.


My idea is that limiting what mutations and how many can be given by Kreikiri, using Kreikiri's level for purposes of creating such grafts or creatures with those? That is a nice idea, it makes sense. Mutations are powerful. However, you made it so they have access to all, even level-locked, stuff from Ozodrin. And Ozodrin's late-level augments for anything are... powerful, if I can say anything about it. Really powerful. As in, STUPIDLY powerful. But then, not being able to give a creature a sting attack or spike or flesh or such due to being level locked is also not fun

So here is what I suggest. Have Kreikiri access to all features, but have the level-lock of augments still apply. The basic augments that are provided without requiring a level, or if they require same level as the feature, are still okay to use at any time, even as Kreikiri is at level 1. That will allow for wide variety of creature while keeping them from being too powerful.

Technically, some augments can be allowed on case by case basis. The Engorged and Condensed Flesh, have that be allowed from start or lower level, but make it so that how many times a Kreikiri can give them, what size can they make the creature, is determined by Kreikiri's level in some way... Or just give free reign with it, as paying for stats and such will still take a lot of graft points and penalties can offset things, but yeah... Since I doubt Kreikiri would be unable to create smaller or bigger creatures. Maybe make these augments have different costs than the ones provided on ozodrin thread? Dunno.

Sounds like it's way complicating things. First off: what augments are game-breaking at low levels? Most of this stuff is fairly defensive or passive in nature.

2nd: off what about augments from PRCs if you have the relevant ability? How would you determine there total level requirement?

3rd: When mentioning balance, you're forgetting the vital aspect of time. An ozodrin can swiftly and freely move around there form points, while a kreikiri takes at least an hour to make any kind of changes, plus the possible multiple spent having to dissect the materials. Infinite graft points, in all cases, assume infinite time, something that's essentially never true.

4th. A kreikiri is also limited by the amount of graft points they can fit onto a graft. An ozodrin can dump half his points into being able to heal back to full every turn (at the cost of starving themselves to death). A kreikiri would be unable to do that, because the Heal check would be too high to reasonably implant.

Yasahiro
2015-08-22, 12:31 PM
Sounds like it's way complicating things. First off: what augments are game-breaking at low levels? Most of this stuff is fairly defensive or passive in nature.

2nd: off what about augments from PRCs if you have the relevant ability? How would you determine there total level requirement?

3rd: When mentioning balance, you're forgetting the vital aspect of time. An ozodrin can swiftly and freely move around there form points, while a kreikiri takes at least an hour to make any kind of changes, plus the possible multiple spent having to dissect the materials. Infinite graft points, in all cases, assume infinite time, something that's essentially never true.

4th. A kreikiri is also limited by the amount of graft points they can fit onto a graft. An ozodrin can dump half his points into being able to heal back to full every turn (at the cost of starving themselves to death). A kreikiri would be unable to do that, because the Heal check would be too high to reasonably implant.

Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.

As for what are game-breaking at low levels... The Nth Dimensional Flesh? Reality Warping Flesh or Stomach? The gaze attacks?

Necroticplague
2015-08-22, 01:50 PM
Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.

As for what are game-breaking at low levels... The Nth Dimensional Flesh? Reality Warping Flesh or Stomach? The gaze attacks?

Problem lies with Created Creatures, not the base grafting rules.Created creatures should have a Graft points/HD ratio cap. Not to mention that doing that gets very expensive, due to the multiplier for features on creatures

Reality Warping Flesh? You mean, the one that protects you from planar effects and AMFs? Things that are very rarely ever gonna come up in lower level campaigns?

Stomachs? Those things are just extradimensional spaces. You can't even cram foes in them unless you find some other way to Swallow Whole. What's overpowered about them? As for gaze attacks, you proposed change would still leave that firmly in place, you'd only have to wait for the stat damage ones.

Yasahiro
2015-08-22, 08:12 PM
Problem lies with Created Creatures, not the base grafting rules.Created creatures should have a Graft points/HD ratio cap. Not to mention that doing that gets very expensive, due to the multiplier for features on creatures

Reality Warping Flesh? You mean, the one that protects you from planar effects and AMFs? Things that are very rarely ever gonna come up in lower level campaigns?

Stomachs? Those things are just extradimensional spaces. You can't even cram foes in them unless you find some other way to Swallow Whole. What's overpowered about them? As for gaze attacks, you proposed change would still leave that firmly in place, you'd only have to wait for the stat damage ones.

I will get back to you on that once I am more coherent.

Here is a question to ThreadNecro, would the Meat Suit, once you rework it, still allow for sharing of features and feats? I mean, it does occupy all magic item slots and all, so.. It would be fair, methinks.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-23, 05:19 PM
ok, for ways to change Symbiotic Creature what if I change the price of the Universal Trait augment I added to three graft points (or four)? im thinking it should hep make a middle ground to the predatory/parasitic symbiont concept, and the choosing between empowering the host or symbiont viewpoint. it still costs a fair bit to make it almost as powerful both attached to a host and not, but it is more reasonably priced.

I'd say limit those traits to a maximum of what half your effective mutator level would let you get so you can pay once for up to half of the number of mutations you could gain then pay for the other half for when you're bonded.

I think Edro's idea here is pretty good. Makes it so that you can't have everything all the time but doesn't hurt the max capability of the favoured form.

As to the cost, jack it up. Remember, we're talking about creature creation here. The base costs of Mutations is 20 for the first, 30 for the second, 40 for the third, etc. Now since you are doing a scaling cost you can't just have a multiplier, but saying that the Universal trait costs an extra 20 graft points per would be pretty reasonable.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-23, 05:28 PM
Except a Kreikiri can put as many points as he wants into creature. And symbiotic creature are possible, thus... Yup, it breaks it.


Remember that both these options have balance points though. For creature creation, the creature isn't you. It can turn on you, be dominated, subverted, etc. That is one of the main balance points of the class. As for symbionts, while they provide power to their hosts (like grafts) and do not require an implant check to be used (like creatures) they do have Ego. If you abuse the lack of implant check for creature creation to make an unbalanced symbiont you will also have to contend with continual battles of wills and 24hrs of watching an NPC play your character when you fail.

Nothing gets broken, there's just a different balance point.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-23, 06:19 PM
PEACH conclusion...




Exalted Mythos

Critical Mass Expansion {Splintered}

This is a pretty solid ability. Just a couple of things...



Additionally you may now convert the bottommost layer of the ground that Web grows upon into more Web, effectively replacing it. This is done identically to any other way you can influence the material but cannot be reversed without magic such as a wish or miracle.

Specify exactly what the 'bottommost layer' is. 1 inch? 5 feet? Specify. Considering the level of this ability 5ft seems fine.



Basic Manifestations
Self is All Realization

This really seems like it should it's own Mythos, or even two. Maybe make a Legendary Mythos that lets you control up to your level in HD of created creatures and that's it. Then give the Exalted version as writen here with the sense-sharing and the 4x multiplier.

This ability is really such a game changer for the class that I think it should have some sense of progression, instead of just being a extra thrown under enhanced Meat Moss spread.



Flesh-Altering Monstrosity Masterpiece {Whole}

I like this ability but it is just so lacking for an Exalted Mythos. The problem here is that you are just adding free buffs onto a class that has been specializing in making custom buffs its entire career. If the Kreikiri wanted any of these abilities he would have had them far, far before this. The synergy effects you added for those with Living-World Shintai are where things actually get interesting. You need to widen the scope of this idea.

Shintai users should keep the benefits to their Fleshscapes, and keep the buffs for the individual manifestations, just have the full manifestation apply to every creature the Kreikiri has created, past, present, and future. Allow the Kreikiri to exclude creatures as a free action, even after creation (nothing says 'banishment' like losing the ability to fly when you're exiled).

This mythos would become about more than acquiring some stat mods, it would be about shaping a race/species/etc. Now that seems like an Exalted mythos.

The only other recomendation that I would make is to limit the number of Basic Manifestations that can be selected to 3 or 4. Make the Kreikiri decide what he wants the basic unifying features of all his work to be, rather than it just being about piling on a grab bag of free features.

I may come back to say something about the individual features at a future time.




From-a-Single-Cell Rebirth

This is actually just a really interesting capstone. Lets the character play around with setting up his own mythic death scene and such goodness.

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-24, 06:05 PM
Here is a question to ThreadNecro, would the Meat Suit, once you rework it, still allow for sharing of features and feats? I mean, it does occupy all magic item slots and all, so.. It would be fair, methinks.

well using the suggested rewording (if I recall correctly) all symbiotic traits are shared, so that all the selected features, augments, and mutations. as for feats perhaps make it so that you gain the feats of the suit that you qualify for.

also posting both the the augment in the form of a Fantastic mythos (I am thinking making the Symbiotic Creature Feature available for free when purchasing Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)).


Meat Suit Cost 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.

When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers form the Meat Suit, and ignoring ‘must be taken at 1st level’ prerequisites).

As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.
These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features and feats, etc., sharing uses per day.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated the Kreikiri can make an additional Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow the Meat Suit to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours) and so this is usually only done as an act of last resort.


also for the epic level prestege class as a mythos what does everyone think about one that removes the need to make a heal check for creating grafts and creatures of a leveled points cost or less.

and in reply to Quarian Rex's PEACH conclusion:


Specify exactly what the 'bottommost layer' is. 1 inch? 5 feet? Specify. Considering the level of this ability 5ft seems fine.

will specify as 5ft


This really seems like it should it's own Mythos, or even two. Maybe make a Legendary Mythos that lets you control up to your level in HD of created creatures and that's it. Then give the Exalted version as writen here with the sense-sharing and the 4x multiplier.

This ability is really such a game changer for the class that I think it should have some sense of progression, instead of just being a extra thrown under enhanced Meat Moss spread.

ok, will turn into two mythos. the fact I personal think more Exaulted mythos were needed only makeis this a better idea.


I like this ability but it is just so lacking for an Exalted Mythos. The problem here is that you are just adding free buffs onto a class that has been specializing in making custom buffs its entire career. If the Kreikiri wanted any of these abilities he would have had them far, far before this. The synergy effects you added for those with Living-World Shintai are where things actually get interesting. You need to widen the scope of this idea.

Shintai users should keep the benefits to their Fleshscapes, and keep the buffs for the individual manifestations, just have the full manifestation apply to every creature the Kreikiri has created, past, present, and future. Allow the Kreikiri to exclude creatures as a free action, even after creation (nothing says 'banishment' like losing the ability to fly when you're exiled).

nice idea


This mythos would become about more than acquiring some stat mods, it would be about shaping a race/species/etc. Now that seems like an Exalted mythos.

The only other recomendation that I would make is to limit the number of Basic Manifestations that can be selected to 3 or 4. Make the Kreikiri decide what he wants the basic unifying features of all his work to be, rather than it just being about piling on a grab bag of free features.

I may come back to say something about the individual features at a future time.

ok, I agree with this, but the manifestation limitation would have to be removed in the epic level prestige class as the elemental themed manifestations are foreshadowing to an ability of that class (specifically invading the Planes with your Fleshscape)


This is actually just a really interesting capstone. Lets the character play around with setting up his own mythic death scene and such goodness.

I am honestly surprised you like this one, but that might be personal bias from the origin of the mythos. you see I was struggling with mythos ideas (I had ran out) and so this was basically an 'excuse mythos', but it seems it was better than I thought.

EdroGrimshell
2015-08-24, 10:39 PM
I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

Yasahiro
2015-08-25, 07:59 AM
I assume that when covered by Meat Suit, the host can still use their own movement types? I mean, if the symbiont has high land speed but the host has a Mythos or anything that allows them to have fly speed equal to land speed, they use symbiont's land speed?


Is there any sharing of class features if the symbiont has such? We have to remember that this essentially takes away all magic item slots... Maybe grafts too, as we are covered by this meat suit. Does it suppress host's grafts? Can they use grafts that the symbiont possesses? Anyway, it takes these away while also limiting actions to equivalent of what one character has in a round. Which is further limiting if the Kreikiri relies on grafts.

Also, nothing stops Kreikiri from making the symbiont just... Want to be used, controlled. Personality, eh?

So something could be done about it... Maybe as a manifestation, to improve the meat suit further. Like I said, it takes away all magic item slots, which means it takes away other regular symbionts, and it also, if I understand right, hides already existing grafts the person has, which for Kreikiri would be bad if it has the Protean mythos, as I believe they would rely on grafts too.

Now, can anyone tell me what action it is for symbiont to attach to a person? Is there any sort of ability damage like regular symbionts? Actually, that might work. As it would allow for a penalty or such when symbiont is attached or deattached. The attachment is a shock to the body, while the detachment is like withdrawal. Like Symbiote from Spiderman, and how Eddie Brock and others acted without it. I believe in the 1990s cartoon, Spider-man lost his Spider-sense for a bit once he got rid of the black suit.


I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

That would make sense. While Whole Shintai focuses on spreading one's flesh... The Shattered Shintai could be about ceasing to exist other than as a hive mind, maybe?

Edit: So are we essentially Errataing out the very existence of Symbiosis and Parasitism mutations? I mean, Symbiosis is like a way more powerful meat suit with less limitations and more actions. Even Draken said it was too strong, I believe.

Necroticplague
2015-08-25, 02:24 PM
Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:

• The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.
The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.


Edit: So are we essentially Errataing out the very existence of Symbiosis and Parasitism mutations? I mean, Symbiosis is like a way more powerful meat suit with less limitations and more actions. Even Draken said it was too strong, I believe.

I get why Symbiosis is way t0o strong, but what's wrong with Parasitism? The only people you can affect with it are ones you could more easily kill, you lose access to pretty much all of your own abilities (unless you take Extrude, and even then you don't get any more powerful from it).

Yasahiro
2015-08-25, 05:07 PM
Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:

The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.

Except you forgot about one part:


You can influence the Webs growth by spending a minute in concentration and choosing one of the following options:

It is supposed to mean that you can choose to omit certain areas in the space to grow. Like, you can create flesh stalagmite by reducing radius with each thought. What it means that one space of Web cannot grow beyond five feet by five feet by five feet. As in, that is the max that the web in that space can ever grow to be. You can't have 10 foot high rectangle of flesh in one space, no matter how much you try.


As for info for Threadnecro:

Just make the hyperlink for Exalted Mythos be...

Exalted Mythos

Don't say where it is and all, just have these two words be the Hyperlink and don't add nothing else. Similarly, no need to say "Kreikiri [Tier] Mythos". We know these are Kreikiri Mythos, this is Kreikiri topic.

Necroticplague
2015-08-25, 05:55 PM
Except you forgot about one part:



It is supposed to mean that you can choose to omit certain areas in the space to grow. Like, you can create flesh stalagmite by reducing radius with each thought. What it means that one space of Web cannot grow beyond five feet by five feet by five feet. As in, that is the max that the web in that space can ever grow to be. You can't have 10 foot high rectangle of flesh in one space, no matter how much you try.

Ah. That's....kinda redundant, given how how the very space rules of DnD already disallow that.

Yasahiro
2015-08-25, 06:23 PM
Ah. That's....kinda redundant, given how how the very space rules of DnD already disallow that.

They way I understand it, it also does one dumby thing.

It makes it so that you can't have super tall pillars of Flesh, as nothing grown from one patch of Web can go beyond confines of 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. And if I understand it right, you can't have another patch of it grown on top of the thing, so... Huh.

So to have super high flesh structures, you need to have an already build chassis, stick, whatever. Then I believe you could grow flesh over it and increase its thickness till you have it look like cubes or whatever shape you want on top of it.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-25, 09:27 PM
Um, one part of Creeping-Flesh fortress is confusing me:



• The Web may grow 1 inch in thickness. That volume of web may be constructed in any immobile shape as long as it fits within the confines of a 5x5x5 area or smaller. The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube. Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space. Examples of a single use of this are constructing a 5'x5' wall that is one inch thick, ceilings, bridges, ladders, chairs, and such. Additional uses can strengthen (thicken) existing structures or create new ones.


The bolded part seems to contradict the italicized part. There's no amount of mental gymnastics that says a 5" cube is one in of thickness increase.

It means that concentration can add a 1 inch by 5ft by 5ft volume of material shaped however you want so long as if fits into a given 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. It's just saying how much fleshy play-doh you have to mess with at a time. This is also to give you a baseline for the sturdiness of any constructions (he used two uses of growth to make the chair so it has 20hps...).



The largest any use of this could make the Web is a single solid 5ft (60 inch) cube.

This is the max after multiple uses, to prevent someone from making a wall with 10,000hp or somesuch. You can normally only 'thicken' (regardless of what form you twist the play-doh into) a given spot 59 times (for a total of 60 inches, a.k.a. 5ft, of thickness) before you just have a solid block of Meat Moss. It was not implying that you go from 1 inch to 5ft in a single use.



They way I understand it, it also does one dumby thing.

It makes it so that you can't have super tall pillars of Flesh, as nothing grown from one patch of Web can go beyond confines of 5ft x 5ft x 5ft cube. And if I understand it right, you can't have another patch of it grown on top of the thing, so... Huh.

Not so good sir. Behold...



Any continued use of this would instead result in the Web continuing on to fill a new 5x5x5 space.

Build as high as you want. It's just that every 5ft section requires a seperate effect. Since you can effect a number of 5ft sections equal to your Kreikiri level with each min. of concentration there is very little limitation to any would-be flesh architects out there.

Quarian Rex
2015-08-25, 10:32 PM
I am thinking making the Symbiotic Creature Feature available for free when purchasing Monster-Making Beast-Lord (Flesh-Altering Master)

I urge thee nay good sir. The options available with symbionts are far reaching enough that I really do think that they should be a seperate paid manifestation.



Meat Suit 30% the creatures total cost before taking into account this augment.

When a Symbiotic Creature attaches to a host of their size category or smaller, the symbiont fills all magic item slots on the host (the host is seen as being somehow enveloped by the symbiont, such as using it as a suit), taking a full-round action to attach or detach. While functioning as host, the host is more fully enhanced by the symbiont, with the following effects: Symbiotic Traits are applied to the host as normal, movement capabilities are identical to those of the symbiont, use the higher of the hosts or the symbionts Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution ability scores and Natural Armor bonus, and use the higher of the hosts or the Creatures BAB. The host also gains the traits (other than HD size, BAB, skill ranks, and saving throw progression) of the symbionts creature type if the Symbiont is at least one size larger than the host, and any feats the symbiont possesses which the host qualifies for (after taking into account the modifiers form the Meat Suit, and ignoring ‘must be taken at 1st level’ prerequisites).

As long as the symbiont has 1 or more hit points, the host is protected from harm. Damage in excess of that which would reduce the host to less than 1 hit point is instead transferred to the symbiont. This damage is transferred 1 point at a time, meaning that as soon as the symbiont is reduced to a number of hit points capable of killing it, all excess damage remains with the host. Effects that cause death but not damage are unaffected by this ability.

These additional shared qualities increase the Symbionts Ego score by 6 (in addition to Ego from Symbiotic Traits, ability bonuses, etc.). When in control the Symbiont may freely use the hosts class features and feats, etc., sharing uses per day. Also, when the Sumbiont is in control it can attack the host (using any means available to it) without having the damage transfer to itself should this lower the host to below 1 hit point. This is the only time that the damage transfer can be negated.

Should the host be Dominated, Charmed, Confused, or otherwise mentally incapacitated the Kreikiri can make an additional Will save versus the effect (even if such a thing would normally be denied) to allow the Meat Suit to take over. The control duration is as per normal (24 hours) and so this is usually only done as an act of last resort.

Remove the first bolded part about movement capabilities for the reasons given here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19679727&postcount=156) (the part at the bottom) and add the second bolded part to enable the oh-so popular predatory symbiont option.




I am honestly surprised you like this one, but that might be personal bias from the origin of the mythos. you see I was struggling with mythos ideas (I had ran out) and so this was basically an 'excuse mythos', but it seems it was better than I thought.

You know, I actually got the 'excuse mythos' angle, I just think that it kind of works. That's probably just due to how I see all capstone abilities (and I lump Exalted mythos under that heading as well) as fun freebie abilities that have little consequence on the rest of the class. So few games actually get to that level (in my experience) that I think it's appropriate to have a little fun.

In this case, the real survivability mythos is Disassociated Undying-Flesh. It's the one that essentially turns you into a Flesh-Lich and virtually impossible to completely kill. If at the end of a game that actually gets to Exalted someone wants to throw a little salt on the wounds of anyone trying to finish them off with an overly complicated death scenario, I say go nuts!

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-28, 03:52 PM
I should note something, it might be a good idea to make two Shintai Mythos. Xefas has more than one for Olethrofex (only one is complete though). Maybe one for Shattered and one for Whole?

I will think about this. oddly enough between this idea and the symbiont stuff some edited out features are being re-added to the class.

and in reply to Yasahiro:

Also, nothing stops Kreikiri from making the symbiont just... Want to be used, controlled. Personality, eh?[quote]

well in terms of the basic personality creation nothing exactly stops this, but without a method of control or establishing loyalty there is just that, the basic personality. if it is intelligent what stops it form deciding it would rather do its own thing as it mentally continues to develop on its own? these are separate independent creatures after all so they can just get board/lost/drunk and wander off. as for unintelligent ones it can simply leave as it is likely often lead to dangerous surroundings, and so figure out following its creator may not be best for personal safety.

[quote]Is there any sharing of class features if the symbiont has such? We have to remember that this essentially takes away all magic item slots... Maybe grafts too, as we are covered by this meat suit. Does it suppress host's grafts? Can they use grafts that the symbiont possesses? Anyway, it takes these away while also limiting actions to equivalent of what one character has in a round. Which is further limiting if the Kreikiri relies on grafts.

So something could be done about it... Maybe as a manifestation, to improve the meat suit further. Like I said, it takes away all magic item slots, which means it takes away other regular symbionts, and it also, if I understand right, hides already existing grafts the person has, which for Kreikiri would be bad if it has the Protean mythos, as I believe they would rely on grafts too.

I can work on manifestations, perhaps one for sharing class features, and another for sharing grafts?


Now, can anyone tell me what action it is for symbiont to attach to a person? Is there any sort of ability damage like regular symbionts? Actually, that might work. As it would allow for a penalty or such when symbiont is attached or deattached. The attachment is a shock to the body, while the detachment is like withdrawal. Like Symbiote from Spiderman, and how Eddie Brock and others acted without it. I believe in the 1990s cartoon, Spider-man lost his Spider-sense for a bit once he got rid of the black suit.

I believe I added specific rules in the latest alteration to the Feature. as for weather to have ability damage, I am not sure as it may hamper the flexibility of the symbiont options.

Necroticplague
2015-08-28, 04:49 PM
My two cents on ability damage: Not all symbionts have that. If you want that, that sounds perfectly valid as a drawback, invoking the grafting clause (which the creature making mythos inherits) about being able to give them drawbacks to reduce the cost. No need to add it to all symbiotic creatures.

Yasahiro
2015-08-28, 08:21 PM
*Has a crazy idea*

Hear me out, people.

Grafts in a liquid form, as a potion or something. Would require the heal or alchemy check when creating it to make sure it works properly, with negative consequences if done wrong, or just having it not work, but otherwise there will be no later check required to use it to induce the features or such in the person. Could be limited to altering existing features or possibly granting new, unless you think removing some would work fine as well. Might require fortitude save or such by the person to be able to handle it, or perhaps to stay conscious. The change would happen over a time period, depending on amount of graft points used for the thing.


It still counts for the limit of how many grafts a person can have. Removing it would require creation of some special anti-said graft juice, maybe?

I mean, have the Nectrotic Juice outbreak plague mythos possible, so why not this?

ThreadNecro5
2015-08-30, 05:23 PM
*Has a crazy idea*

Hear me out, people.

Grafts in a liquid form, as a potion or something. Would require the heal or alchemy check when creating it to make sure it works properly, with negative consequences if done wrong, or just having it not work, but otherwise there will be no later check required to use it to induce the features or such in the person. Could be limited to altering existing features or possibly granting new, unless you think removing some would work fine as well. Might require fortitude save or such by the person to be able to handle it, or perhaps to stay conscious. The change would happen over a time period, depending on amount of graft points used for the thing.


It still counts for the limit of how many grafts a person can have. Removing it would require creation of some special anti-said graft juice, maybe?

I mean, have the Nectrotic Juice outbreak plague mythos possible, so why not this?

while an interesting idea, i'm not particularly fond of it. also it is somewhat stepping away from the 'feel' of the class I think.

also, to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.

Exalted
Self is All Realization
Perquisites: Unnamed Legendary Mythos

When using the ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos’ mythos the total HD of Creatures you may control increases to 4x your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. You may select prior created creatures to immediately take control of using your new HD limit as per when gaining ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos‘

Legendary
Name
Perquisites: -

You may now gain mental control over some of your Created Creatures. You may select a number of hit dice of such Creatures (upon gaining this mythos you can select from any Creatures you have created) equal to your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. The creatures you control have their senses permanently linked to you while controlled and constantly follow your exact desires and intentions as you choose. Upon creating a creature you may choose to make them among the creatures you are in total control of, with excess HD becoming uncontrolled and behaving as normal for them.

The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.

Yasahiro
2015-08-30, 06:14 PM
while an interesting idea, i'm not particularly fond of it. also it is somewhat stepping away from the 'feel' of the class I think.

also, to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.

Exalted
Self is All Realization
Perquisites: Unnamed Legendary Mythos

When using the ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos’ mythos the total HD of Creatures you may control increases to 4x your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. You may select prior created creatures to immediately take control of using your new HD limit as per when gaining ‘Unnamed Legendary Mythos‘

Legendary
Name
Perquisites: -

You may now gain mental control over some of your Created Creatures. You may select a number of hit dice of such Creatures (upon gaining this mythos you can select from any Creatures you have created) equal to your Kreikiri level + any mythos advancing prestige classes you possess. The creatures you control have their senses permanently linked to you while controlled and constantly follow your exact desires and intentions as you choose. Upon creating a creature you may choose to make them among the creatures you are in total control of, with excess HD becoming uncontrolled and behaving as normal for them.

The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.

I think what you consider the Exalted Mythos would work better as a manifestation of the Legendary one, with it requiring you to be at the Exalted Tier or such. Alternatively, the Legendary can have the creatures still use a save to somehow fight off or delay the control if they are unwilling.

And as for you saying it is stepping away from the feel of the class... It's essentially the Necrotic Juice, distilled into granting specific stuff. It's basically creating a vaccine or cure for the disease that has plagued us all this time. That disease is the imperfection of our bodies

Quarian Rex
2015-08-30, 06:28 PM
The problem is that I cannot think of a name for the Legendary Myhtos.


How about something like Sacrificial Loyalty Awakening? Tis snappy, does what it says on the tin, and is less cool sounding than it's Exalted counterpart (a crucial factor to consider).




... to anyone who is reading this, does this seem like suitable wording for the Exalted Mythos Manifestation that is becoming a Mythos in itself.


Wording is pretty good. I just have two suggestions. First, move the sense linking to Self is All Realization. Gaining perfect control, even over so few creatures, is a tempting and valid option for Legendary. It really doesn't need anything else. Exalted is something else. These are your capstones and they need a little more 'oomph'. Quadrupling the HD limit and adding sense linking seems more worthy of this tier. That and it just seems more approptiate with a name like Self is All Realization.

The other thing is to spell out the mechanics of the sense linking. Is it two-way? Can the Kreikiri shut it off? Does it work across planes? These are all things that are not addressed. I would suggest that you specify that it is an [Ex] ability to share physical senses between master and creature that functions across planar boundaries. Say that the degree of sense sharing (number of senses, one-way vs. two-way, etc.) can be modified by the Kreikiri as a free action. Even when the sense-sharing is otherwise disabled the Kreikiri is still subconsciously aware of his controlled creatures such that he knows if they speak his name or are in pain. Such sense-sharing can never result in the transmission of effects or conditions from one person to another. For example, a minion Blinded by a spell or being tortured by an enemy would not result in the Kreikiri being blinded or debilitated by pain in any way, even though he would be aware of exactly what was happening, in exquisite detail.

I was going to offer some suggested wording but I'm dead tired right now and my brain is mush. Hope this helps.

ThreadNecro5
2015-09-05, 04:15 PM
ok, I am back and working on improving the two mythos.

also I cant remember, did we eventually decide the symbiont stuff was good to go, or if not what alterations were recommended? doing a VtR campaign has taken up a fair bit of my time.

EdroGrimshell
2015-09-06, 07:21 PM
You know, I really think there should be more medical mythos in there outside of grafts and creature creation. Making the Kreikiri the Mythic Healer seems like it'd make sense given they already are to an extent.

As it stands they have Shattered (taking pieces from creatures and manipulating them) and Whole (stealing the shards and gathering them within yourself), but what about one that focuses on repairing the shards of the kyniteros in others as another possible focus? Maybe using it as a way of suppressing it so that they can't use it against you. Seems like it'd be a fun idea and it lets you play a Mythic Healer without going Mythic Priest.

Yasahiro
2015-09-07, 06:29 PM
You know, I really think there should be more medical mythos in there outside of grafts and creature creation. Making the Kreikiri the Mythic Healer seems like it'd make sense given they already are to an extent.

As it stands they have Shattered (taking pieces from creatures and manipulating them) and Whole (stealing the shards and gathering them within yourself), but what about one that focuses on repairing the shards of the kyniteros in others as another possible focus? Maybe using it as a way of suppressing it so that they can't use it against you. Seems like it'd be a fun idea and it lets you play a Mythic Healer without going Mythic Priest.

Technically, the Healer or rather, a Doctor, would fit the liquid to "cure" people of their normalness. Cures can be created and distributed easily usually and all... It would basically be Necrotic Juice mythos without it being necrotic and requiring it to have selected changes beforehand. It could potentially also be a way to over time weaken someone, have it turn them into something weak if they fail the saves. No? Anyone?

Another idea I have is if a creature is to have multiple forms, like with the reproduction excellency. Except how about creating a creature in its child state and having the selection of future features be locked in, requiring the creature to either have or giving it a way to harvest graft points and accumulate as many as creating the next form would have taken, without being able to use the points for something else? Possibly, it could also give a method of granting choice of other forms, along with some special conditions for it to happen. It's like... hidden potential of all these creatures, since either they can't turn into adult form or it is just something like special progression. Something amazing. In a way, it would be same way as to how Titans had their Child, Adult and Elder stages, yet only one managed to become an Elder... although age could also matter as the titans were killed...

You know what I mean, though? It's essentially like Man-is-monster restoration, except the cost is not reduced but the creature does not need a Kreikiri(unless it is one of added conditions) to achieve full power/evolve, it only needs to harvest the amount of graft points.


In a way, both the "Cure" and the "Earn the full form" things fit with awakening fragments of Kyniteros in others, or just giving them a chance to do it.

Edit:

So I talked to Edro and here are the thoughts:

Cure/Liquid Form: Creation of graft as usual with a possible check on top of it to turn it into that form. Upon being ingested or injected into a person, they must pass Fortitude checks over some time, or they get ability damage or regular damage dependant on complexity of graft.

Evolution & Graft Point harvesting: Turn the Excellency that grants ability to harvest graft points into an Excellency that allows Kreikiri to give creatures ability to harvest graft points, just like those with Necrotic Meat Mutation, for a graft point cost. This will allow Kreikiri to have creatures that get graft points for him possibly. The Advancement of the creature into an "advanced" form thanks to graft points would be easily done, just have a small cost by Kreikiri in order to give the created creature such option, with making it possible to add some special requirements to cause the advancement.

Mythic Carnivore: Creatures that are "Harvesters" get access to special Mythic Racial feat, just like the Mythic SOLDIER and Mythic Foulspawn, except this is kinda Kreikiri's version of it. These feat would allow creature to turn graft points into mythic points to buy Mythos with, at a higher loss than a Kreikiri usually gets when releasing a creature, unless the creature already has a mythos granting class, in which case they can but the mythos regular way. The feat or even the mythos would focus on using graft points to heal or even do alterations to one's body, with the other mythos focusing on something based off Necrotic Meat Mutation and the advancement as I mentioned. It still needs FLESHING out but I am willing to write this Mythic Racial feat if you do the change to the harvesting excellency as I mentioned in the thing above this.

ThreadNecro5
2015-09-11, 12:45 PM
Technically, the Healer or rather, a Doctor, would fit the liquid to "cure" people of their normalness. Cures can be created and distributed easily usually and all... It would basically be Necrotic Juice mythos without it being necrotic and requiring it to have selected changes beforehand. It could potentially also be a way to over time weaken someone, have it turn them into something weak if they fail the saves. No? Anyone?

Another idea I have is if a creature is to have multiple forms, like with the reproduction excellency. Except how about creating a creature in its child state and having the selection of future features be locked in, requiring the creature to either have or giving it a way to harvest graft points and accumulate as many as creating the next form would have taken, without being able to use the points for something else? Possibly, it could also give a method of granting choice of other forms, along with some special conditions for it to happen. It's like... hidden potential of all these creatures, since either they can't turn into adult form or it is just something like special progression. Something amazing. In a way, it would be same way as to how Titans had their Child, Adult and Elder stages, yet only one managed to become an Elder... although age could also matter as the titans were killed...

You know what I mean, though? It's essentially like Man-is-monster restoration, except the cost is not reduced but the creature does not need a Kreikiri(unless it is one of added conditions) to achieve full power/evolve, it only needs to harvest the amount of graft points.

In a way, both the "Cure" and the "Earn the full form" things fit with awakening fragments of Kyniteros in others, or just giving them a chance to do it.

I think I may be able to make an interesting mythos out of the ideas here, will try and make the 1st draft tonight.


Cure/Liquid Form: Creation of graft as usual with a possible check on top of it to turn it into that form. Upon being ingested or injected into a person, they must pass Fortitude checks over some time, or they get ability damage or regular damage dependent on complexity of graft.

can make this work.


Evolution & Graft Point harvesting: Turn the Excellency that grants ability to harvest graft points into an Excellency that allows Kreikiri to give creatures ability to harvest graft points, just like those with Necrotic Meat Mutation, for a graft point cost. This will allow Kreikiri to have creatures that get graft points for him possibly. The Advancement of the creature into an "advanced" form thanks to graft points would be easily done, just have a small cost by Kreikiri in order to give the created creature such option, with making it possible to add some special requirements to cause the advancement.

I have a few ideas I can work with for this. seems like it could be a fun option.


Mythic Carnivore: Creatures that are "Harvesters" get access to special Mythic Racial feat, just like the Mythic SOLDIER and Mythic Foulspawn, except this is kinda Kreikiri's version of it. These feat would allow creature to turn graft points into mythic points to buy Mythos with, at a higher loss than a Kreikiri usually gets when releasing a creature, unless the creature already has a mythos granting class, in which case they can but the mythos regular way. The feat or even the mythos would focus on using graft points to heal or even do alterations to one's body, with the other mythos focusing on something based off Necrotic Meat Mutation and the advancement as I mentioned. It still needs FLESHING out but I am willing to write this Mythic Racial feat if you do the change to the harvesting excellency as I mentioned in the thing above this.

I like this idea, plus I have been wanting to try writing a Mythic ghoul but just never thought of good mythos ideas, but I can combine that idea with this. I will get around to this idea. from a fluff point of view, perhaps making it's myhtos derive from the Kyniteros's heart, or perhaps a last echo of a Titan of willpower consumed by the Kyniteros (and thus creating Mythosof will filtered through a desire to grow and consume).

Yasahiro
2015-09-11, 02:38 PM
I like this idea, plus I have been wanting to try writing a Mythic ghoul but just never thought of good mythos ideas, but I can combine that idea with this. I will get around to this idea. from a fluff point of view, perhaps making it's myhtos derive from the Kyniteros's heart, or perhaps a last echo of a Titan of willpower consumed by the Kyniteros (and thus creating Mythosof will filtered through a desire to grow and consume).

Technically when you look at it in a way, those that have future forms set by Kreikiri can have the children start at the first form... And in a way, this is difference between Mythic Harvester and regular one. Regular one is just a creature that requires Graft Points to advance to a pre-chosen by Kreikiri form, or to a choice of forms that it was offered... and can gather graft points. Mythic Harvester can "design" its own evolutions and "grafts" and all.

And "consume" can be fluffed in many ways. If you are partly made of slime or are some weird creature like in Prototype, you can slowly incorporate it into yourself instead of shoveling it into your maw. Yay

Edit: Like I said, I am interested in making that Mythic Harvester. How about we work together on it, eh?

Edit: Can Kreikiri add specific weaknesses to its creatures? Like sunlight vulnerability of vampires or such? Hidden measures for easy-kill, unless it somehow made itself immune?(Which would be part of the Mythic Harvester, abandon previous limitations, enforced instincts granted by Kreikiri, etc.)

ThreadNecro5
2015-09-15, 03:29 PM
Technically when you look at it in a way, those that have future forms set by Kreikiri can have the children start at the first form... And in a way, this is difference between Mythic Harvester and regular one. Regular one is just a creature that requires Graft Points to advance to a pre-chosen by Kreikiri form, or to a choice of forms that it was offered... and can gather graft points. Mythic Harvester can "design" its own evolutions and "grafts" and all.

And "consume" can be fluffed in many ways. If you are partly made of slime or are some weird creature like in Prototype, you can slowly incorporate it into yourself instead of shoveling it into your maw. Yay

this all looks like a good idea for it (assuming you are referring to the mythic devourer idea).


Edit: Like I said, I am interested in making that Mythic Harvester. How about we work together on it, eh?

sounds like a plan. to begin with I would suggest we do some fluff first, the basic story that is the source of the mythos (that at least is the design system I used for the Kreikiri: decide what I want it to do, then fluff to justify it, then brainstorm names and ideas for stuff, then see how it develops).


Edit: Can Kreikiri add specific weaknesses to its creatures? Like sunlight vulnerability of vampires or such? Hidden measures for easy-kill, unless it somehow made itself immune?(Which would be part of the Mythic Harvester, abandon previous limitations, enforced instincts granted by Kreikiri, etc.)

that should have been an option, and kind-of was in the original wording of the mythos. I will add that in.

this look like a good enough paragraph?:

when designing a Created Creature it may be given any number of imaginable weaknesses, such as instant death conditions, vulnerability to certain environments, or similar. to determine exact conditions work with your GM. with some weaknesses the GM may reduce the creation DC by a small amount at their digression.

also I have the beginnings of some mythos, both Fantasic Tier:

Lord of the Warped
Perquisite: -

As a standard action you may force your will on a being with grafts or a Created Creature, with a range of 60ft. In either case there are two options available. In any case the target gains a will save to resist.

On creatures with grafts you may use either of the following options:
• Suppress one of the creatures grafts for 1d4 rounds. A graft that is suppressed becomes unavailable to the creature to which it is attached, including as a limb or other body part. This effect may be applied to the same creature mutable times, stacking the duration. Should a graft become suppressed for over a minute, it crumbles to dust and is destroyed.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to the number of grafts they possess.

On Created Creatures you may use either of the following options:
• You may cause the creatures body to come undone, flaking apart into its component parts, dealing 1d4 damage per two Kreikiri levels you possess, which ignores any DR it may posess.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to half your Kreikiri level.
In any case Kreikiri are immune to all effects of this mythos.

Advanced manifestations:
-Name-
By using a standard action to may create an aura around yourself that repels creature that would use your gifts against you. Maintaining this aura requires an action per round.

The aura has a 10ft radius and prevents hostile creatures that possess grafts or are created creatures may not enter or move within this aura unless they pass a will save. Additionally they may not attack you unless they make this save.

Master of Change
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

When creating a graft you may convert it into a black oily liquid reminiscent of a potion for no additional cost but you must immediately roll for attachment, as a free action that takes no time but you may not take 20. On a failed roll half the cost of the graft is refunded to you with the rest of the graft points wasted, and no graft is created.

When turned into such a state the graft is functionally an ordinary potion that when inspected would be of an unknown spell. The imbiber of the potion is immediately staggered for the next 30 minutes and takes 3d6 points of nonlethal damage in the pain of their mutation. At the end of this period the imbiber will have completely developed the graft.

Should a creature use this to attempt to gain a graft when they may not possess any more grafts they instead immediately save against being infected by the disease created by the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ mythos, with the alteration that when they would become a Creature, they instead become a Black Pudding that is entirely normal apart from that it retains the infected individuals grafts, and that d4 portions of the ‘potion graft’ that caused them to become infected with the disease may be found on the Pudding’a corpse. Every time the Pudding splits the collected potions of the graft are shared among the split puddings. Should they pass the save they vomit up a vast pool of oily black residue. Should the Kreikiri who created the ‘potion graft’ have the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ Mythos the Pudding also inflicts the disease with its natural attacks.

Additionally when creating one a ‘potion graft’ in this manner you may choose to instead have it stay within the system of the imbiber and be passed on to one their next child. A graft gained by the eventual child this way gains the ‘Genetic’ augment and the graft will become available to the creature upon puberty.

The child is born entirely normal but upon puberty they do not gain the graft as normal, develop an unending hunger, and gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller.

After eating the creature the individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should you have harvested the corpse for graft points, taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such, with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

One the creature has gained a number of graft points equal to the amount originally needed to create their ‘Genetic’ graft they lose their hunger and bite attack and gain the graft as normal.

also for the idea you ad to make a creature undergo metamorphosis into a better version, I am making that an new Feature available in Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration. I have just written the following augment for it.

Birth of the Successor
The Creature with this augment gains a single Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos and excellency of your choice that it qualifies for, and gains 'Fleshcrafting Prodigy' as an additional excellency.

Upon entering its evolved form, the Creature gains a free level of Kreikiri (treating its prior myhtos and first Excellency as being selected from that first level), and may trade in a single level of an NPC class to gain one level of Kreikiri, and may also trade in additional levels in an NPC class for more levels of Kreikiri, at a ratio of "2 NPC levels to 1 Kreikiri level". A character with PC class levels but no NPC class levels may make a similar trade, but they may trade levels of a PC class for levels of Kreikiri at a "1 to 1" ratio. A character with racial hit dice, but no class levels of any kind, may lose 2 racial hit dice (or 1 if they only have 1), and replace it with a single level of Kreikiri.

Yasahiro
2015-09-15, 10:22 PM
Birth of the Successor
The Creature with this augment gains a single Kreikiri Exceptional Mythos and excellency of your choice that it qualifies for, and gains 'Fleshcrafting Prodigy' as an additional excellency.

Upon entering its evolved form, the Creature gains a free level of Kreikiri (treating its prior myhtos and first Excellency as being selected from that first level), and may trade in a single level of an NPC class to gain one level of Kreikiri, and may also trade in additional levels in an NPC class for more levels of Kreikiri, at a ratio of "2 NPC levels to 1 Kreikiri level". A character with PC class levels but no NPC class levels may make a similar trade, but they may trade levels of a PC class for levels of Kreikiri at a "1 to 1" ratio. A character with racial hit dice, but no class levels of any kind, may lose 2 racial hit dice (or 1 if they only have 1), and replace it with a single level of Kreikiri.


Except... No. Don't make them Kreikiri. That is completely unnecessary and complicates things or makes it more likely that the GM will say "No"

I was suggesting making it so that... you know how your Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration works? With the option to make it so that as a child the creature can be a different thing than when it matures, like caterpillars into butterflies?

This was going to work the same way, except you only pay cost for the starting form + a fee to set the future forms, and it just gains a bite attack or some other way to get graft points. If it were to have multiple forms availible to go into, if Kreikiri gave it such option to do so, they can choose which form to go. Alternatively, it is determined at random or whether or not they fulfill some special requirements to evolve, set by Kreikiri too.

This was meant to make it so that the creature does not need Kreikiri levels, at all, for the evolution. So that this is part of their RACIAL stuff in a way.

ThreadNecro5
2015-09-23, 03:13 PM
Except... No. Don't make them Kreikiri. That is completely unnecessary and complicates things or makes it more likely that the GM will say "No"

I was suggesting making it so that... you know how your Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration works? With the option to make it so that as a child the creature can be a different thing than when it matures, like caterpillars into butterflies?

This was going to work the same way, except you only pay cost for the starting form + a fee to set the future forms, and it just gains a bite attack or some other way to get graft points. If it were to have multiple forms availible to go into, if Kreikiri gave it such option to do so, they can choose which form to go. Alternatively, it is determined at random or whether or not they fulfill some special requirements to evolve, set by Kreikiri too.

This was meant to make it so that the creature does not need Kreikiri levels, at all, for the evolution. So that this is part of their RACIAL stuff in a way.

I understand. the bit you quoted was just to be an augment to the surrounding ability.

the reason I have not been able to post in a while is that I have been online less and by laptop has broken down and I am needing a new one. thankfully all the classes material is located here. will check in periodically and will make a note for when I can properly start working on the class again.

also (very) rough excellency idea:
gives immunity to all effects that would cause your body to become altered (such as baleful polymorph) apart from those of another Kreikiri. should the effect originate from a Kreikiri you are immune to it should your kreikiri level be higher.
in any case you may choose to be affected any any effect you would be immune to form this excellency.

Quarian Rex
2015-09-27, 06:24 PM
also I cant remember, did we eventually decide the symbiont stuff was good to go, or if not what alterations were recommended?

Check my replies at the topish part of this page. Use Edro's idea of limiting the mutator level for universal traits and bump up the cost (both detailed in above posts) and I think you're probably good.



Lord of the Warped

This actually looks pretty damn good. Flavourful, interesting, effective. Couple things though.



Should a graft become suppressed for over a minute, it crumbles to dust and is destroyed.

Don't make this automatic. Say that if a graft is suppressed for over a min. the Kreikiri may cause it to crumble to dust and be destroyed. Sometimes you just want to shut someone down for a while and not actually destroy the work you've done. Also, bump up the duration to 1d4+1. Slightly higher average duration will make this a better option in the action economy.



• You may cause the creatures body to come undone, flaking apart into its component parts, dealing 1d4 damage per two Kreikiri levels you possess, which ignores any DR it may posess.

Double the damage to 1d4/level and say that the Kreikiri can use fewer dice if desired. This is a very niche ability with a very narrow target group. Make it worth it.



• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to half your Kreikiri level.

Specify a duration. I would recomend a minute with multiple uses stacking duration but not penalties.



Un-named manifestation

Nice ability. Just specify the action required to maintain it, I'd recomend a swift action.

Last recomendation would to make this a Legendary mythos. This actually covers some of the territory of Mental-Lords’ Unity but in a much more direct way. It makes more sense to make this a higher tier so that a control oriented Kreikiri can first experiment with Mental-Lords’ Unity and then later move on to the more 'wireless' control of this mythos.

This got me thinking of another manifestation that could be added. Give it 'Perquisite: Mental-Lords’ Unity - Mind-Warping Restructuring' and let the Kreikiri trigger any implanted conditions (duration of the condition unchanged) with a Standard action. Add a third advanced manifestation that lets him effect a number of targets equal to his Kreikiri level within 60 ft of him and I think that you will have a more fleshed out mythos overall.




Master of Change

Originally I was against the idea of the potion grafts that Yasahiro was proposing. Their niche, that of grafts in a tradable form, is covered by symbionts, and even the fluff aspect can be covered by an Ooze symbiont being ingested and bonding with a hosts circulatory system or somesuch. But you have done something far more interesting with it. Nice. There are a few things that need to be cleared up though.



... with the alteration that when they would become a Creature, they instead become a Black Pudding that is entirely normal apart from that it retains the infected individuals grafts, and that d4 portions of the ‘potion graft’ that caused them to become infected with the disease may be found on the Pudding’a corpse.

First, Black Pudding. Bold choice good sir, bold choice. Second, you say that 1d4 portions of potion graft can be found on the corpse, but in what form? I suggest saying that they are in palm sized membrane sacks that dissolve/rot in 2d4 days (or something like that). Third, you say that the Pudding retains grafts, but I am assuming that that does not include the one(s) that caused the Pudding transformation, since they did not have time to form. You just need to specify that so no one tries force feeding a goblin 20 potion grafts to get an Uber-Grafted Black Pudding for nefarious purposes.



Should they pass the save they vomit up a vast pool of oily black residue.

This is clearly unfinished. What is the save from/for? What effect does the black vomit have? Please elaborate or remove the line. Tis chaos otherwise.



Additionally when creating one a ‘potion graft’ in this manner you may choose to instead have it stay within the system of the imbiber and be passed on to one their next child. A graft gained by the eventual child this way gains the ‘Genetic’ augment and the graft will become available to the creature upon puberty.

This is interesting but it needs some limitations. As it is now you completely invalidate the entire inheritance system you have set up in Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration and there is no limit on grafts that can be added to the foetus. That is not so good. I would say that foetus can only support a number of grafts added through Master of Change equal to half the mother's maximum number of grafts (min. of 1). If that limit is exceeded the foetus then turns into a Black Pudding with all of the associated squick that entails. I'd also suggest that the number of genetic potion grafts be noted in the racial characteristics of the offspring and count towards the maximum allowed for future uses of the mythos.

This way you have a quick and dirty way to modify individuals and bloodlines when you need to but the changes are a little unstable and could backfire if you get greedy.



After eating the creature the individual gains a number of graft points ... with the alteration that all dice rolled are maximised (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

I'm good with this but lose the maximised bit. That is something that only has a precedent when the Kreikiri is deperately trying to reconstitute his own body from inside of his companion creature. Let the puberty mutants do this the long way. They are already eating their way to superpowers, no need to give them a shortcut.

Lastly, make this a Legendary mythos. This has enough abuse potential (including virtual at-will Black Pudding creation) that the higher tier is definitely warranted.



Birth of the Successor

The first half of this is good. Add the caveat that a Kreikiri can only provide mythos that he already has and add a hefty cost. Like 30-40% of the creatures total cost. Something like that. To have the power of the Kyniteros express itself so directly in a created creature should be a costly thing.

As for the second half, with the adding of the Kreikiri levels, scrap it. You already have a mechanic for creatures to awaken to become Fleshcrafters by releasing them into the wild (if they are of sufficient mental fortitude) or done directly via Transient Skill. Don't add a convoluted option to do something that can already be accomplished with the base ability.




also (very) rough excellency idea:
gives immunity to all effects that would cause your body to become altered (such as baleful polymorph) apart from those of another Kreikiri. should the effect originate from a Kreikiri you are immune to it should your kreikiri level be higher.
in any case you may choose to be affected any any effect you would be immune to form this excellency.

Sounds like a pretty good excellency. I'd suggest giving it a perquisite of Stitched Nightmare though. Say that you can only become immune to change after you have first been changed, completely and utterly.

ThreadNecro5
2015-10-27, 02:57 PM
alright, that's my computer problems sorted, apologies about the wait.

so I am currently sorting through the corrections and changes for the uncompleted mythos and excellences and should have them sorted soon.

Quarian Rex
2015-10-27, 08:39 PM
Glad to hear things are sorted out and looking forward to the changes.

ThreadNecro5
2015-11-02, 01:50 PM
ok, sorry for the wait from my first post, things happened.

for now I will post these updated mythos, taking into account the recommended changes:

Lord of the Warped

Perquisite: -

As a standard action you may force your will on a being with grafts or a Created Creature, with a range of 60ft. In either case there are two options available. In any case the target gains a will save to resist.

On creatures with grafts you may use either of the following options:
• Suppress one of the creatures grafts for 1d4+1 rounds. A graft that is suppressed becomes unavailable to the creature to which it is attached, including as a limb or other body part. This effect may be applied to the same creature multiple times, stacking the duration. Should a graft become suppressed for over a minute, the Kreikiri may immediately choose for it to crumble to dust and be destroyed.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to the number of grafts they possess.

On Created Creatures you may use either of the following options:
• You may cause the creatures body to come undone, flaking apart into its component parts, dealing 1d4 damage per Kreikiri level you possess, which ignores any DR it may possess. The Kreikiri may choose to use less damage dice than their level would allow.

• Debilitate the creature, causing them to take a penalty on all rolls equal to half your Kreikiri level for a minute. Multiple uses of this ability on the same Creature causes the duration to stack, the penalties however do not.
In any case Kreikiri are immune to all effects of this mythos.

Advanced manifestations:
Break the construed mind
Perquisite: Mental-Lords’ Unity (Mind-Warping Restructuring)

As a Standard action the Kreikiri may select a creature within 60ft that has a condition from ‘Mind-Warping Restructuring’. This creature then has the Condition activate as normal with the duration unchanged.

Rule the Wrought
Perquisite: Lord of the Warped (Break the construed mind)
When using Break the construed mind, you may select a number of creatures equal to your Kreikiri level instead of only one.

Repel the traitorous
Using a standard action to may create an aura around yourself that repels creature that would use your gifts against you. Maintaining this aura requires a swift action per round.

The aura has a 10ft radius and prevents hostile creatures that possess grafts or are created creatures may not enter or move within this aura unless they pass a will save. Additionally they may not attack you unless they make this save.

Master of Change
Perquisite: Limb-Shredding Graft-Taker, Flesh-Warping Lineage Exhonoration

When creating a graft you may convert it into a black oily liquid reminiscent of a potion for no additional cost but you must immediately roll for attachment, as a free action that takes no time but you may not take 20. On a failed roll half the cost of the graft is refunded to you with the rest of the graft points wasted, and no graft is created.

When turned into such a state the graft is functionally an ordinary potion that when inspected would be of an unknown spell. The imbiber of the potion is immediately staggered for the next 30 minutes and takes 3d6 points of nonlethal damage in the pain of their mutation. At the end of this period the imbiber will have completely developed the graft.

Should a creature use this to attempt to gain a graft when they may not possess any more grafts they instead immediately save against being infected by the disease created by the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ mythos, with the alteration that when they would become a Creature, they instead become a Black Pudding that is entirely normal apart from that it retains the infected individuals grafts (the ‘potion graft’ that caused the transformation is not gained), and that d4 portions of the ‘potion graft’ that caused them to become infected with the disease may be found on the Pudding’a corpse, in the from of a congealed section of pudding, which degrade to uselessness in 2d4 days . Every time the Pudding splits the collected potions of the graft are shared among the split puddings. Should they pass the save against the disease they vomit up a vast pool of oily black residue and are Nauseated for 1d4 minutes. Should the Kreikiri who created the ‘potion graft’ have the ‘Necrotic Meat-Mutation’ Mythos the Pudding also inflicts the disease with its natural attacks.

Additionally when creating one a ‘potion graft’ in this manner you may choose to instead have it stay within the system of the imbiber and be passed on to one their next child. A graft gained by the eventual child this way gains the ‘Genetic’ augment and the graft will become available to the creature upon puberty. A foetus may only support a number of grafts added through ‘Master of Change’ equal to half the mother's maximum number of grafts (min. of 1). If that limit is exceeded the foetus then turns into a Black Pudding that is deposited into the nearest empty space from its point of emergence. Should it emerge from another creature, the pudding immediately gets to make a full attack against that creature.

The child is born entirely normal but upon puberty they do not gain the graft as normal, develop an unending hunger, and gain a bite attack that deals 1d6 damage for a medium creature, and that benefits form the Hidden Power augment of the Created Creature Feature. This hunger drives them to consume any and all food available, but that still does not reduce the hunger. The only way a creature may relieve themselves of their hunger is by consuming the body of a creature that has been dead for no less than 24 hours. The creature can consume the body unnaturally quickly taking 15 minutes for a small sized creature, with +15 minutes per size larger or half that time per size smaller.

After eating the creature the individual gains a number of graft points (identical to yours but they lack any means to use them) identical to how many you would have gained should you have harvested the corpse for graft points, but without taking into account any modifiers you possess into the roll such as making the dice used d6s or such (should the consumed creature possess graft points they are gained by the consumer as well).

One the creature has gained a number of graft points equal to the amount originally needed to create their ‘Genetic’ graft they lose their hunger and bite attack and gain the graft as normal. The ‘potion grafts’ received from this effect count towards the maximum number of grafts a creature may possess.


Edit:
I will add these mythos and alter them later if anyone recommends it.