Traps Spelled to look like they aren't traps

[Draco_Lord]

So, when it comes to traps there is a check to see if you notice them, perception. But I was wondering, if it is hidden within a spell, an illusion of some sort to make it look safe, would that first require a Will Save to see if you believe it? Then a perception check? Or would the will save stop any perception check from working?

[JDL]

If you're using an illusion (figment) spell, note the following:


Figment: A figment spell creates a false sensation. Those who perceive the figment perceive the same thing, not their own slightly different versions of the figment. It is not a personalized mental impression. Figments cannot make something seem to be something else.

This arguably means you can't use a permanent image spell to conceal a pit trap and make it seem like a simple floor. A pit trap still looks like a pit trap, though you could create the illusion of a false pit trap using a figment.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I would disagree with that interpretation. I think it more means I couldn't use a figment like a glamer. I could make a hole in the floor and cover it with a permanent image, but I couldn't use a figment to make myself look like Bob the Builder.

[Jeff the Green]

I would disagree with that interpretation. I think it more means I couldn't use a figment like a glamer. I could make a hole in the floor and cover it with a permanent image, but I couldn't use a figment to make myself look like Bob the Builder.

Right. In that case you're not making a pit look like a floor, you're making the appearance of a floor where there isn't something. Similarly, you could hide inside the figment of a tree, but you couldn't hide inside the figment of a kobold (assuming you're larger than a kobold; an awakened mouse probably could).

[goto124]

you couldn't hide inside the figment of a kobold (assuming you're larger than a kobold; an awakened mouse probably could).

'This kobold sounds unusually squeaky...'

(Would this be a Perception or Listen check?)

[Draco_Lord]

Well, I'm DMing a game, and for the next part I want to have an illusionary village that one of the recurring NPCs creates, fills with traps and annoying cursed items, traps, and monsters, and then traps the Players in.

I was going to use Mirage Arcana (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mirage-arcana) a few times to create it. In addition to some Mist spells, and maybe some... slight spell ability editing to make it so when you try to leave you find yourself back at the beginning, leaving the players with no choice by to look through the houses for the NPC, mess him up, and break the spell that way. Or maybe the party witch or sorcerer or cleric will find a way to break the spells, who knows.

Anyways, just wanting to make sure I understand the mechanics of the traps, since the rouge has a very high perception, put all her points into it plus some magic items to help, but a lower will score.

[The Grue]

Try spelling "traps" instead as "tarps". It has the same letters as "traps", but they're rearranged to make a different word.

[Jeff the Green]

Try spelling "traps" instead as "tarps". It has the same letters as "traps", but they're rearranged to make a different word.

The dysleximancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380917-I-cast-Whither-Limb-The-Dysleximancer) strikes again!

[goto124]

The dysleximancer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?380917-I-cast-Whither-Limb-The-Dysleximancer) strikes again!

I don't want to necro that thread, so I'll say here that I laughed at pretty much every entry in there.

[JDL]

Yep, that Dysleximancer one's solid gold.

As for the OP suggestion, there's a few problems. Mirage Arcana is a glamer, so you're fine on making the traps disappear using it. The big trouble will be the range and the duration. Unless you're using a resetting trap of Mirage Arcana or some such thing, the duration is only concentration + 1 hour/level. Also, as soon as anyone in the group touches anything in the fake town they'll get a save to disbelieve. Even simply throwing pebbles at a wall should eventually allow them to determine if this is a fake or not, and if you plan on using it as a recurrent theme any smart group will begin checking the strangely convenient towns with no people in them. Finally, the size is only a 20 ft. cube per level, meaning at the level you can start casting it you're only getting 9 cubes each about the size of a two car garage. Even if no house is over 20 ft. high, that means each time you cast this spell you can create a little less than one or two houses, certainly not a full town.

In short, the idea is interesting and mechanically possible but not practical without serious DM fiat.

[Draco_Lord]

There is going to be some DM fiat, purely for the creation of this town, the NPC is part of a powerful group intent of summoning a powerful Evil Outsider, a Demon Lord really, into the world. The leader of which is a super powerful wizard. The NPC is another wizard, currently level 10. This shouldn't be recurring, and this is the first time they will really be interacting with this kind of thing. But basically I'm going to justify that he could get hold of a staff with a few charges of Mirage Arcana plus his own spell casting abilities to be able to make this village. 10 hours should be enough time, this isn't a time based trap, so much as give them something to stumble around for a bit, run into some monsters and traps, and try to figure there way out, or be luckily enough to walk into where the NPC is hiding.

Though, I do like the idea of them being able to throw pebbles and figure out that it is fake. I know if they touch it, or interact with it directly, such as poking at it with a sword, the illusion convinces them it is real, and they don't have a habit of throwing rocks at walls just yet.

[Psyren]

Traps are already hidden by design; that's the whole point of them. Detecting them already requires finding something you can't easily see. I don't see the point in penalizing trapfinders even more than they already are by saying their skill checks won't work.

At best I would impose a circumstance penalty of some kind on the searcher's check for a particularly seamless or well-crafted illusion - but I would not prevent them from locating the trap altogether. Such a penalty would rely on the illusionist being very detailed in his creation, possibly involving an Architecture, Dungeoneering or Nature check.

[Draco_Lord]

Well that was my question. If it is hidden inside of a wall, or the pressure plate is spelled to not look like a pressure plate but instead a rug, logically to me it seems that if someone looked for it with a failed will save then the spell would make it impossible to find, since they would believe they are just looking at a mat or a piece of wall.

But, I see what you mean, it would make it rather boring to figure out that there is just a whole spell around it instead of just impose a penalty, or more accurately increase the DC and not impose a penalty so they don't know something is up if they ask why they are suddenly losing some points in perception until they figure out it is a spell.

[Barstro]

Using figments would potentially make things easier to find. A movable bookcase still looks only like a bookcase. A hole with a bookcase figment shines of magic, smells differently, has a different echo, and doesn't bounce back marbles that are thrown around the room.

[Malroth]

A figment of a solid completely dust covered bookshelf with no segments that could independantly move 1/2 an inch in front of a similar but containing a moving section bookshelf with hidden scrapemarks works much better especially when combined with Magical Aura to make the entire thing ping non magical. It smells like a bookshelf, marbles bounce off it almost identicaly and there is nothing for search checks to find.

[Jeff the Green]

A figment of a solid completely dust covered bookshelf with no segments that could independantly move 1/2 an inch in front of a similar but containing a moving section bookshelf with hidden scrapemarks works much better especially when combined with Magical Aura to make the entire thing ping non magical. It smells like a bookshelf, marbles bounce off it almost identicaly and there is nothing for search checks to find.

You can't negate a figment's aura with magic aura. It only targets objects, and figments aren't objects and don't target objects.

[Psyren]

Well that was my question. If it is hidden inside of a wall, or the pressure plate is spelled to not look like a pressure plate but instead a rug, logically to me it seems that if someone looked for it with a failed will save then the spell would make it impossible to find, since they would believe they are just looking at a mat or a piece of wall.

But that's the point, isn't it? If your pressure plate "looks like a pressure plate", or your wall-trap was hanging around outside the wall, then it was a pretty poorly-designed trap to begin with. Something that was obvious before your illusion covered it wouldn't have even required a check to detect to begin with. Adding the spell would only make it into what it was supposed to be from the beginning, not add on more difficulty.

Also, what Barstro said - if you're doing this to non-magical traps, all you're doing is adding suspicious glow everywhere to someone with magic detection up. Knowing that the aura is illusion is even worse, as they will have immediate reason not to trust their senses and begin making will saves.

[Draco_Lord]

See, I'd be worried about the magical glow, except no one in the party uses detect magic. Ever. So... I don't think they will notice anything magical about it until they start throwing rocks at the walls.

[P.F.]

See, I'd be worried about the magical glow, except no one in the party uses detect magic. Ever. So... I don't think they will notice anything magical about it until they start throwing rocks at the walls.

Or until the first time they fall into one of said pits ... the open pit covered by an illusory floor is a classic D&D trap. It gets old if overused, but in the context of one illusory dungeon, I'd play it for all it's worth. However, once they start casting detect magic all the time, it's going to be hard to keep fooling them with a trap of this type ... that's when I'd suggest a pit trap that's simply hidden, which they might neglect to search for.

Hopefully the party trapfinder will be there to say "I told you so."

[JDL]

Don't forget that little gem of a second level spell, Phantom Trap (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/phantom-trap).