Fallen...Blackguards?

[Sardia]

The question of how much evil does it take to cause a Lawful Good character to change alignment is interesting, but how much good and law do you think an Evil or Chaotic character would have to do or think in order to change his alignment?

As a start, would selflessly saving a life for altruistic reasons in any way be of comparable moral weight to selfishly taking one in pursuit of the character's goals?

[Sage in the Playground]

Probably yes.

[headwarpage]

It depends.

No really, it does. A single evil act doesn't always turn a good character evil, and a single good act doesn't always turn an evil character good. It depends on the situation, the magnitude of the act, and the character's motivations.

It also depends on the DM. Ultimately, the DM gets to make the final call on what alignment a character actually is, and different DMs have different views on the issue, weighing intent vs. actions to different degrees, along with their own thoughts on what exactly good and evil consist of. Some DMs will slap you with Chaotic Evil for one bad slip, then make you claw your way back to Neutral, let alone Good. Some won't.

So, are you the DM or the player in this situation? If you're the player, talk with your DM about where your character's going and what you think his alignment should be. If you're the DM, think about the character's motivations and general attitude and figure out what alignment they should be. There's no point in changing a character's alignment to Good if they're going to immediately go out killing puppies and undo the effects of whatever good act they've committed. On the other hand, if they've genuinely reformed, it's probably fair to change their alignment to at least Neutral even before they've committed a large number of good deeds.

If this is a purely hypothetical situation, let the debate begin.

[Talya]

Note that in the RAW there are no situations or circumstances by which a blackguard can lose their powers. Change your alignment to good,you can't advance as a blackguard, but you keep what you had.

[brian c]

Note that in the RAW there are no situations or circumstances by which a blackguard can lose their powers. Change your alignment to good,you can't advance as a blackguard, but you keep what you had.

Well, if your alignment is no longer evil, then your smie good ability won't come in handy very much...

[Sardia]

Well, if your alignment is no longer evil, then your smie good ability won't come in handy very much...

I suppose if you go Lawful Good and really need to explain the Law to a Chaotic Good character...

[Talya]

There's an ability or feat somewhere (i think it's Exalted) that changes smite damage to non-lethal...'


Now, imagine a fallen paladin turned blackguard redeems themselves, atones, and gets all their paladin powers back. They still have their blackguard powers. They still get the bonus abilities for blackguards with paladin levels.

It's silly, I know.

[Mewtarthio]

I think that retaining a Fiendish Servant qualifies as "associating with evil creatures."

Regardless, it should take quite a bit of work to become redeemed. First, the character must somehow recognize that he is evil. This takes quite a bit of work, as most people fervently believe that they are right. After this completely life-altering conversion, they'll probably just be at Neutral. Eventually, they can redeem themselves by performing Good acts which eventually change their outlook. I saw a forum thread once on writing redemption, linked from the comic forum. Lemme see if I can find it...

Here. To a certain extent, this holds true for fallen heroes as well, but falling should be far easier than redemption

[brian c]

There's an ability or feat somewhere (i think it's Exalted) that changes smite damage to non-lethal...'


Now, imagine a fallen paladin turned blackguard redeems themselves, atones, and gets all their paladin powers back. They still have their blackguard powers. They still get the bonus abilities for blackguards with paladin levels.

It's silly, I know.

If someone managed to redeem themselves from being a Blackguard all the way back up to a LG Paladin, I'd say they worked hard enough to deserve the abilities. That would probably be two Atonement spells (one to get out of Evil alignment, one to get back to being a Paladin)

[Mewtarthio]

No Atonement is strictly necessary to get back to the Good alignment, but it can probably accelerate the process. It appears to be mostly an spell of DM convenience in this sense, though, allowing the DM to easily state, "This is when his alignment shifts," rather than sifting through the gradual process of redemption.

[MeklorIlavator]

No Atonement is strictly necessary to get back to the Good alignment, but it can probably accelerate the process. It appears to be mostly an spell of DM convenience in this sense, though, allowing the DM to easily state, "This is when his alignment shifts," rather than sifting through the gradual process of redemption.
But for Paladins and clerics, the Atonment spell is the only way to get thier powers back after changing alignmnet, so one spell would be necessary.

[Snooder]

What about magical items? Like a helm of opposite alignment or an intelligent weapon that changes the user's alignment over time?

[Aquillion]

I think that retaining a Fiendish Servant qualifies as "associating with evil creatures."Have your wizard polymorph them into a humanoid form for a moment, then slap a Helm of Opposite Alignment on them. If you get a two-for-one sale on the helms, you're most of the way to being redeemed yourself.


Regardless, it should take quite a bit of work to become redeemed. First, the character must somehow recognize that he is evil. This takes quite a bit of work, as most people fervently believe that they are right. After this completely life-altering conversion, they'll probably just be at Neutral. Eventually, they can redeem themselves by performing Good acts which eventually change their outlook. I saw a forum thread once on writing redemption, linked from the comic forum. Lemme see if I can find it...Those would certainly make sense as a house rule, but it should be pointed out that per RAW it isn't required at all... one application of the Atonement spell returns a genuinely repentant paladin to grace instantly with no other requirement. The caster of the spell often requires some sort of quest or geas, but they are never required to do so.

(In other words, if you're DM for a game and the Paladin looks like they're about to decide to fall, make it clear if you're going to require a quest even for PC-cast Atonements before they start, as soon as it becomes clear it's relevant. In fact, it's something you should make clear before the game starts at all, when they first choose to be a Paladin, since it is a departure from the rules they'd expect.)

[Mewtarthio]

What about magical items? Like a helm of opposite alignment or an intelligent weapon that changes the user's alignment over time?

Well, yes, but I think the OP's asking about getting a Blackguard to redeem himself realistically, through mundane means, rather than just how to change an alignment to Good. Brainwashing doesn't really count. I could see the intelligent weapon as being a sort of guide on his quest for redemption ("No, Hylsop, don't kill him! Even those such as he deserve redemption!"). I don't recall items actually changing alignment, though; just forcing the character to take certain actions.


Have your wizard polymorph them into a humanoid form for a moment, then slap a Helm of Opposite Alignment on them. If you get a two-for-one sale on the helms, you're most of the way to being redeemed yourself.

What happens when he un-summons the servant? The servant goes straight back to whatever hell he came from...


Those would certainly make sense as a house rule, but it should be pointed out that per RAW it isn't required at all... one application of the Atonement spell returns a genuinely repentant paladin to grace instantly with no other requirement. The caster of the spell often requires some sort of quest or geas, but they are never required to do so.

(In other words, if you're DM for a game and the Paladin looks like they're about to decide to fall, make it clear if you're going to require a quest even for PC-cast Atonements before they start, as soon as it becomes clear it's relevant. In fact, it's something you should make clear before the game starts at all, when they first choose to be a Paladin, since it is a departure from the rules they'd expect.)

The key phrase here is "genuinely repentant." I'm talking about how to get to a state of genuine repentance.

[Nowhere Girl]

All a blackguard needs to do to "fall" to good is save his own son from the evil Emporer. I thought everyone knew that. :smallbiggrin:

[Rad]

All a blackguard needs to do to "fall" to good is save his own son from the evil Emporer. I thought everyone knew that. :smallbiggrin:

as someone pointed out it is the intentions and the state of mind that influences your alignment, more than the number and magnitude of your direct actions.
After all, since some DMs are so keen to declare a paladin fallen after one questionably-evil act, I find it pretty normal that someone (hopefully it should be the same people) can declare that an evil character has turned to good just out of a single good act.

Ah, and I'm slightly amused by the fact tat everyone finds perfectly normal that a paladin can fall to a blackguard but that it would be incredible for a blackguard to become a paladin...

[Aquillion]

What happens when he un-summons the servant? The servant goes straight back to whatever hell he came from...Whoops. Er, sucks to be them.


The key phrase here is "genuinely repentant." I'm talking about how to get to a state of genuine repentance.Players get to decide their character's state of mind completely. Just as a player can say "my paladin is succumbing to evil and becomes a blackguard" whenever they want, they can say "my blackguard has seen the errors of his ways and is genuinely repentant" at any time, and instantly meet all the qualifications (well, the only qualification) for an atonement spell.

Requiring a quest on the basis you implied above just doesn't make any sense--repentant doesn't mean that they've paid for all of their sins, it just means that they want to pay for them. They do not have to show or prove this new attitude in any form. Well, technically they're "proving" it insofar as the atonement spell will fail if their attitude isn't right, but per RAW, simply feeling that way in their heart is enough.

If a player says 'My blackguard is repentant', they're repentant. End of story. I can understand house-ruling that players need to go on quests to atone for serious enough transgressions, but that is a house rule, with no support in the rules, and as such you ought to make it clear to everyone before you start. The rules as written unambiguously make redeeming a Paladin a straightforward and simple process as long as they genuinely want to be redeemed; and a PC's player is the only person who has any say in whether or not their character wants to be redeemed.

...now, with that said, there's another issue here. Jokes about Helm of Opposite Alignment aside, IIRC a Blackguard draws on infernal powers for his abilities. That means, I think, that using any blackguard powers is an evil act. Sure, they don't lose them just for switching to good, but a redeemed Paladin who used any blackguard abilities at all would fall again immediately. Even if your DM allows you to constantly atone after each fall, you'll have trouble getting a cleric to pay the 500 xp eventually...

In the right setting or with DM approval you could use Gray Guard, I guess, to negate the 500 xp cost for atonement as long as you're committing evil for the greater good, but Gray Guard levels won't count towards Blackguard abilities, will they? And you still lose all your Paladin and Gray Guard abilities every time you use a Blackguard ability, at least until you atone.

It might be an interesting character (a sort of trite 'walking the line between good and evil' thing), but hardly overpowering.

[SMDVogrin]

What happens when he un-summons the servant? The servant goes straight back to whatever hell he came from...


Note that the Blackguard's Fiendish Servant does _not_ have the same lines about "magically calling from the realms where it resides" that the Paladin's special mount does. Nothing I see indicates that Blackguards get the Pokeball effect for their Servants.

[Mewtarthio]

as someone pointed out it is the intentions and the state of mind that influences your alignment, more than the number and magnitude of your direct actions.
After all, since some DMs are so keen to declare a paladin fallen after one questionably-evil act, I find it pretty normal that someone (hopefully it should be the same people) can declare that an evil character has turned to good just out of a single good act.

Ah, and I'm slightly amused by the fact tat everyone finds perfectly normal that a paladin can fall to a blackguard but that it would be incredible for a blackguard to become a paladin...

Well, it should be harder to go from evil to good than vice versa. Evil represents self-interest and greed, which are far more natural than sacrifice and altruism.


Players get to decide their character's state of mind completely. Just as a player can say "my paladin is succumbing to evil and becomes a blackguard" whenever they want, they can say "my blackguard has seen the errors of his ways and is genuinely repentant" at any time, and instantly meet all the qualifications (well, the only qualification) for an atonement spell.

Requiring a quest on the basis you implied above just doesn't make any sense--repentant doesn't mean that they've paid for all of their sins, it just means that they want to pay for them. They do not have to show or prove this new attitude in any form. Well, technically they're "proving" it insofar as the atonement spell will fail if their attitude isn't right, but per RAW, simply feeling that way in their heart is enough.

If a player says 'My blackguard is repentant', they're repentant. End of story. I can understand house-ruling that players need to go on quests to atone for serious enough transgressions, but that is a house rule, with no support in the rules, and as such you ought to make it clear to everyone before you start. The rules as written unambiguously make redeeming a Paladin a straightforward and simple process as long as they genuinely want to be redeemed; and a PC's player is the only person who has any say in whether or not their character wants to be redeemed.

I'm assuming that the characters are decently realistic. Sure, you could perform heinous acts of blatant Evil whenever it suits you and then immediately state, "I feel really bad about it and am truly repentant," but that doesn't mean any sane DM should let you.

[Aquillion]

I'm assuming that the characters are decently realistic. Sure, you could perform heinous acts of blatant Evil whenever it suits you and then immediately state, "I feel really bad about it and am truly repentant," but that doesn't mean any sane DM should let you.That's a horrible attitude towards DMing. We aren't talking about some obscure abuse of the rules here, we're talking about a player taking perfectly normal and by-the-books options to choose the direction their character is going. Players are supposed to be able to change the alignment of their character with near-complete freedom; that's why spells like atonement exist in the first place. The only time a DM should have to step in is when a player is acting extremely deviantly from their declared alignment or changing at an absurd rate, and even then, all they're supposed to do is say "change your alignment or change your behavior, it's up to you."

Telling a player, with no advance warning or discussion of house rules, "Oh, of course a repentant paladin has to undergo a long and painful quest" is comparable to saying (for example) "Oh, of course you can't take Barbarian and Wizard levels in the same character, look at how opposed they are. If you take the wizard levels you lose your ability to rage forever."

Of course there's a place for sanity checks when a player's decisions get to the point where it's impossible for anyone to interact with their character without laughing, but a DM shouldn't constantly be looking for chances to shout 'gotcha' at a player's decisions... alignment is ultimately intended to be a tool for players to use in roleplaying their characters, not a straitjacket.

For the record, the easy-atonement redemption for paladins is very much a central part of the rules; the Gray Guard, for instance, is almost completely dependant on it, and has easy atonement as a class feature. Their flavor suggests that they receive atonement for evil deeds committed in the name of good fairly frequently. Now, a character changing their mind about being a blackguard is a bit more of a shift than that... but it's hardly unimaginable.

And if a DM just can't stand the EZ-insert-coin-gain-redemption offered by the atonement spell, they should at least tell the players whatever their houserules are before the game starts, so they'll know not to start a build based around redeeming a blackguard or whatever. Doing it any other way only leads to arguments and bad blood.

[Sardia]

Well, it should be harder to go from evil to good than vice versa. Evil represents self-interest and greed, which are far more natural than sacrifice and altruism.


That would seem to imply that the majority of the NPCs that characters interact with would be evil, then. Merchant? Evil. Barmaid? Evil. Ship Captain? Evil, along with his evil crew. Most political structures and clergy? Evil to the core.
If it's far more natural, shouldn't it be far more prevalent? The Paladins are going to get a workout...

[Falconsflight]

Firstly, Evil is Self interest and Greed at the expense of others. I.e. your willing to see a man go bankrupt and live on the streets so you can have change in your pocket. self interest and greed are not inherently evil. It's only when you do them too much. But the reason why i posted is not an ehtics alignment argument.

My question is, If you drop as a blackgaurd, you keep ALL the blackgaurd abilities is that right? And lets say you start up as a paladin again. Okay. Now you have Aura of Good and Aura of evil... What exactly does that mean? By that I mean when your Paladin and Blackgaurd levels are the same. Level 5 blackgaurd/level 5 paladin. When someone casts Detect evil and detect good... what happens? "Your evil... AND good?"

Also, do Dark blessing and Divine Grace Stack? (What, plus 12 to all my saving throws. Why thank you.)

[Tokiko Mima]

Really, the best way to do this is to take your Blackguard levels first, THEN change your alignment voluntarily to Lawful Good and take your Paladin levels. Barbarian would make a good class to start off.

6-7 levels of Barbarian, then 7 levels of Blackguard, then an alignment switch and 5-6 levels of Paladin. You would have an insane Fort save, and get to count double your Charisma on Saves on top of that. Additionally, you'd be healing others (or yourself for Cha * 5 or 6 damage) and could heal yourself or your fiendish servant for Cha * 7 damage. You could Smite Good 4/day, or Smite Evil 2/day. A very interesting character, probably best suited for an "Internal Affairs" type job at a large Good aligned church!

[Rad]

I would have found it to be perfectly normal if the blackguard, as all other divine-related classes, had an ex-blackguard entry sorting that out. I'd have seen favorably a level trade-off from blackguard to paladin as well, similar to the one that exists the other way round.
The only in-game reason I can find for t not to exist, however, is that a blackguard is a very particular agent of evil, that operates on a very, very long leash... so long that the evil powers that grant her powers just did that once and cannot take them back.
This is pretty much the only possible explanation for retaining any supernatural ability upon falling, but has the huge disadvantage of not fitting with how D&D deities are supposed to work.

The BG abilities, however, allude to the fact that you make a pact with evil outsiders rather than gods, that could be very interesting as the ex-BG might have to "take his soul back" from the demon holding it, or the demon might simply beleive that his servant will turn to evil again, and leave her his powers as a token of this "trust". If the BG turned good, retaining her evil powers is going to be upsetting, especially if his ex-"employer" keeps sending dreams and visions like "your soul belongs to me" or "you will come back... you know you will" all the time.

[Rad]

Well, it should be harder to go from evil to good than vice versa. Evil represents self-interest and greed, which are far more natural than sacrifice and altruism.

This is VERY arguable... I would not want to start a theology dispute about the inherent good present in everyone here, but I would not let this pass as assured either.

Leaving all real-life philosophy and religion aside, the D&D system is constructed so that there is symmetry between good and evil at all time; it is also assumed somewhere that the average person is neutral, implying that good and evil are roughly balancing forces in the soul of everyone. Then some people choose to follow good and make themselves good suppressing their evil tendencies, and some others becoming evil suppressing their good ones.

[Caledonian]

I think this thread is an excellent example of why people shouldn't approach RPGs from a purely mechanical perspective.

A Barbarian... becoming a Blackguard... and then a Paladin... in order to gain cool powers.

[Falconsflight]

actually, upon further inspection, you can't, well - You can't fall as a paladin, become a blackgaurd and come back. Rules state that once a paladin multiclasses he can't go back into paladin. But the big question is - Would he regain all his powers if he does the atonement spell?

[Snooder]

I think this thread is an excellent example of why people shouldn't approach RPGs from a purely mechanical perspective.

A Barbarian... becoming a Blackguard... and then a Paladin... in order to gain cool powers.

Actually that works out much better than lot of the multiclass builds you see out there. Hell it even makes more sense than the entire cleric class.

Simple, a barbarian from the wilds makes a pact with an evil outsider and becomes a Blackguard. He continues merrily hacking his way to evil glory when he has an epiphany and decides to start being good. Ergo, becomes a paladin.

If you think about it Darth Vader went from barbarian to paladin to blackguard to paladin again.

[BabbageCliolog]

Actually that works out much better than lot of the multiclass builds you see out there. Hell it even makes more sense than the entire cleric class.

Simple, a barbarian from the wilds makes a pact with an evil outsider and becomes a Blackguard. He continues merrily hacking his way to evil glory when he has an epiphany and decides to start being good. Ergo, becomes a paladin.

If you think about it Darth Vader went from barbarian to paladin to blackguard to paladin again.

I am SO going to make this character and soon!

That is an awesome build. How come I didn't think of that?

/BC

[Roderick_BR]

I'm not very sure, but in the Book of Exalted Deeds, there's an entry about redeemed villains. It doesn't really talk about how or when an evil character changes alignment though, I guess.

[Squatting_Monk]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something but... what possible benefit is there from going Barbarian/Blackguard/Paladin? In the finished build, the Barbarian won't be able to use his rage ability because he's Lawful, so the only real benefits you can get are the Fast Movement and Damage Reduction. Since the latter is only available to character who've taken a large number of Barbarian levels (and then only in a small amount), that's not a very good benefit. A Paladin going Blackguard then back to Paladin would make much more roleplaying sense as well as being much more powerful in the end.

[Falconsflight]

First - A paladin who becomes a blackgaurd can't become a paladin again. Because it explicitly states in the paladin thing -You can't go back to paladin
once you leave it.

Second - Sadly you can't become a paladin after leaving blackgaurd since blackgaurds will still have "aura of evil." Aura of evil is channeling evil power, you can't become a paladin if your still radiating evil.

[Roderick_BR]

You can still regain your paladins powers, you just can't rise more levels. Although some scenarios and PrCs allows you to gain more paladin levels. And if you stop being a backguard, you lose your powers, so, no more aura of evil.

[Falconsflight]

Actually you don't lose your powers if you stop being a blackgaurd Nowhere int he ruling do you lose your powers

But I just realized something, you don't have to go back to beign a paladin. at least you don't have to put more levels into it. Lets say you pull off Paladin 6/Blackgaurd 5. Then you get atonement cast on ya. You regain your paladin hood. YOu can't gain levesl for sure, but you regain the abilities. As long as your L-G.

[Talya]

The idea is for a 10 paladin, 10 blackguard to repent/redeem/attone themselves.

Then they keep a full 10 levels of blackguard. They have 10 fully functional levels of paladin. In addition to both of those things, the blackguard retains these abilities:


Fallen Paladins
Blackguards who have levels in the paladin class (that is to say, are now ex-paladins) gain extra abilities the more levels of paladin they have.

A fallen paladin who becomes a blackguard gains all of the following abilities that apply, according to the number of paladin levels the character has.

1-2
Smite good 1/day. (This is in addition to the ability granted to all blackguards at 2nd level.

3-4
Lay on hands. Once per day, the blackguard can use this supernatural ability to cure himself or his fiendish servant of damage equal to his Charisma bonus × his level.

5-6
Sneak attack damage increased by +1d6. Smite good 2/day.

7-8
Fiendish summoning. Once per day, the blackguard can use a summon monster I spell to call forth an evil creature. For this spell, the caster level is double the blackguard’s class level.

9-10
Undead companion. In addition to the fiendish servant, the blackguard gains (at 5th level) a Medium-size skeleton or zombie as a companion. This companion cannot be turned or rebuked and gains all special bonuses as a fiendish servant when the blackguard gains levels. Smite good 3/day.


Now, the caveat is that a lot of these abilities are "evil acts" to use in and of themselves, so while you have the abilities, you couldn't use them all.

[Falconsflight]

Actually, except for the smite good, you could do all of that as a level 10 paladin/level 10 blackgaurd/level 1 whatever. At level 1 whatever, if you are good, you gain all your paladin powers(Via atonement. you need atonement for this) and keep all your blackgaurd powers. The only problem is - You would have ot get rid of your evil counterparts - THe fiendish freind and the undead guy. No good person would keep around evil creatures. even if they could keep them in line.

[Talya]

The only problem is - You would have ot get rid of your evil counterparts - THe fiendish freind and the undead guy. No good person would keep around evil creatures. even if they could keep them in line.

Yeah. You might make an argument to get away with the undead. In D20 RAW, necromancy is not necessarily evil. But not the fiendish servant. I think you'd need to be rid of them both myself. Like I said, not all of the abilities would be safely useable by a paladin even if they had them.

[Squatting_Monk]

First - A paladin who becomes a blackgaurd can't become a paladin again. Because it explicitly states in the paladin thing -You can't go back to paladin
once you leave it.

Ooo... forgot about that. Okay, the question still stands, though. Why Barbarian as opposed to, say, Fighter?

[Karaswanton]

Interesting:
-Gray Guard levels count as Pally levels for Blackguard--specifically stated in Complete Scoundrel.

-The class requirements of GG could be met by a Paladin/Ex-Blackguard.
If you were to go Paladin 5/Black-guard 10, and then atone, you get all your Paladin class-features back, but can't progress further as a Paladin. But, since you're Paladin powers are back, you meet the pre-reqs for Gray-Guard.
This could actually make for an interesting character if your DM allows BG levels to count as Paladin levels for GG. (It works the other way around..)

[Snooder]

You know what's interesting, if you got at least Pally 7 before you turned into a Blackguard you could use the summon monster ability in a VERY interesting manner.

Just summon an evil creature once a day, then slay it. Not only do u get xp for killing stuff, you are doing good by preventing the creature from coming to the neutral plane for a while. (at least i have the specifics of summoning right)

[Tokiko Mima]

Ooo... forgot about that. Okay, the question still stands, though. Why Barbarian as opposed to, say, Fighter?

Because I like Barbarian better than Fighter, especially for leveling up? It was just an example of how you could construct someone with Blackguard and Paladin levels without breaking the rules. You need a class to fufill the requirements of Blackguard. and a class that would ulimately compliment the melee style of Blackguard and Paladin would be ideal. So I picked Barbarian rather than any other class out of personal preference.

Fighter would work, too. It's a matter of picking 4 feats vs. Fast Movement, DR 1/-, trap sense, and having rage until you went Paladin.


Second - Sadly you can't become a paladin after leaving blackgaurd since blackgaurds will still have "aura of evil." Aura of evil is channeling evil power, you can't become a paladin if your still radiating evil.

Kindly point me in the direction of the rule that states that you can't become a Paladin because you have an Evil Aura, please? It's possible to have outsiders with an evil subtype become Paladins, or so I've been told. The only prerequisite that I'm aware of is LG alignment, but if you've found a rule I'm unaware of, I would be thrilled to read it.

[ElHugo]

Besides, you're not becoming a paladin, you're just regaining the paladin powers you already had... Do you have to stick to the paladins' CoC again, or would you just need to stay LG?

[Dausuul]

That's a horrible attitude towards DMing. We aren't talking about some obscure abuse of the rules here, we're talking about a player taking perfectly normal and by-the-books options to choose the direction their character is going. Players are supposed to be able to change the alignment of their character with near-complete freedom; that's why spells like atonement exist in the first place. The only time a DM should have to step in is when a player is acting extremely deviantly from their declared alignment or changing at an absurd rate, and even then, all they're supposed to do is say "change your alignment or change your behavior, it's up to you."

The original statement was this:


I'm assuming that the characters are decently realistic. Sure, you could perform heinous acts of blatant Evil whenever it suits you and then immediately state, "I feel really bad about it and am truly repentant," but that doesn't mean any sane DM should let you.

I don't think it's at all bad DMing to refuse to let a player get away with this, since it's essentially a player wanting to be able to do evil at will and then get a pass from the Powers That Be so she can keep her shiny paladin abilities. Once, okay. As a DM I would look very suspiciously at any character who did something evil and then immediately claimed to be repentant and went in search of an atonement spell (and they'd sure as hell get a quest if they asked an NPC cleric for it), but I'd probably let it slide. If they did it again, though, I'd say, "Uh, no. If you were truly repentant the first time, you wouldn't have done it the second time. You might as well start taking those blackguard levels, because you're not getting your paladinhood back any time soon."

[Tokiko Mima]

Besides, you're not becoming a paladin, you're just regaining the paladin powers you already had... Do you have to stick to the paladins' CoC again, or would you just need to stay LG?

Well, the problem I have with regaining your Paladin powers after you've done something really evil like taking Blackguard or Assassin is that it requires an Atonement spell. The wording of that spell technically requires you to repent your evil actions and if you've taken Blackguard levels, you've racked up a LOT of evil to repent for.

As far as answering your question: Yes, as long as you maintain your Paladin powers you must follow the Code of Conduct or lose them, even if you're no longer taking Paladin levels. Simply being Lawful Good is not sufficient, though it is a CoC requirement.

[Falconsflight]

Kindly point me in the direction of the rule that states that you can't become a Paladin because you have an Evil Aura, please? It's possible to have outsiders with an evil subtype become Paladins, or so I've been told. The only prerequisite that I'm aware of is LG alignment, but if you've found a rule I'm unaware of, I would be thrilled to read it.

Book of Exalted Deeds. Paladin's can't channel dark energy. The Aura of evil is constantly channelling dark energy. You can be a good person and channel dark energy, since your not using it for any sort of purpose. But it's against a paladin's CoC or something like that.

Also, That's what atonement does. It cleanses you of your evil deeds. It won't get rid of aura of evil, but it does cleanse you of your evil deeds and has one of the gods recognize you aren't who you were before. I.e. now good.

Actually, once you leave paladin to do anything else, you don't have to follow a Paladin's CoC. Since that's a paladin's way of life. Once you step off of it, you dont' have to follow a paladin's way of life, but you still have to be good to recieve your powers. Plus, that's all it says in the Ex-Paladin part of the PHB. all you need to do is be good.

[alchemy.freak]

for being redeemed after becoming a Blackguard, i would think it would depend on the deity/church's idea of redemption. If you are worshiping Hieroneous you are less likely to be forgiven then if you had more of a Christian type religion going on, where forgiveness from sin is much more likely

[Aquillion]

Actually, once you leave paladin to do anything else, you don't have to follow a Paladin's CoC. Since that's a paladin's way of life. Once you step off of it, you dont' have to follow a paladin's way of life, but you still have to be good to recieve your powers. Plus, that's all it says in the Ex-Paladin part of the PHB. all you need to do is be good.I think that's stretching it a little. Remember, under the D&D system, taking a level in another class isn't defined as "leaving" your old class or anything like that--a Paladin who takes a level in Fighter or whatever is still a Paladin, just one that can't advance any further. The d20srd is pretty clear on this when it says that Paladins can still be multiclass characters.

Multiclass Paladins are still subject to all the Paladin rules, including the CoC and atonement. While it may technically be true that they don't have to follow the code, they do if they want to retain any Paladin abilities.

[the_tick_rules]

it happens. not often but it happens.

[Falconsflight]

A paladin's life is a calling. Once you step down from that, i.e. changing class, my only guess is the god gives you the power for services rendered. That's why you still keep the powers after leaving the "service" of your god. As long as you remain on his good side, he'll allow you to keep your powers. The code of Conduct is just a way to make the paladin larger than life. To make him seem absolute in his power. To make him an avatar of his god. Once he's no longer an avatar. Why would th god make you follow the Code?

[the_tick_rules]

i think it was one of the shadowbanes com complete warrior or adventurer that reforemed blackguards become sometimes right?

[Tokiko Mima]

Book of Exalted Deeds. Paladin's can't channel dark energy. The Aura of evil is constantly channelling dark energy. You can be a good person and channel dark energy, since your not using it for any sort of purpose. But it's against a paladin's CoC or something like that.

Also, That's what atonement does. It cleanses you of your evil deeds. It won't get rid of aura of evil, but it does cleanse you of your evil deeds and has one of the gods recognize you aren't who you were before. I.e. now good.

Actually, once you leave paladin to do anything else, you don't have to follow a Paladin's CoC. Since that's a paladin's way of life. Once you step off of it, you dont' have to follow a paladin's way of life, but you still have to be good to recieve your powers. Plus, that's all it says in the Ex-Paladin part of the PHB. all you need to do is be good.

Actually, you'll notice in the section for Ex-Paladins (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm#CodeofConduct) it clearly states:


Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully commits an evil act, or who grossly violates the code of conduct loses all paladin spells and abilities (including the service of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield proficiencies). She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.


So you do have to follow the Paladin CoC if you want your Paladin powers whether you're taking Paladin levels at the time or not.

As far as channelling dark energy, I'm not aware of a specific passage in the Book of Exalted Deeds that says that 'Paladin's can't channel dark energy. The Aura of evil is constantly channelling dark energy. You can be a good person and channel dark energy, since your not using it for any sort of purpose.' I do own that book, and I read through it a lot. Part of the Redemption of Evil sections would seem to directly counter your assertion. In fact, BoED even claims that the highest form of Good is redeeming Evil.

[Falconsflight]

*Failed spot check*

You are right, it does say that. (Talking about the Ex-paladins thingy) Well... Yeah. Sorry about that, I misread(i.e. didn't fully remember) the text for that. So yes. L-G and follow code of conduct.

[Tobrian]

If you think about it Darth Vader went from barbarian to paladin to blackguard to paladin again.

I disagree. He started as a Rogue (street kid)/Expert (technician) became a psionic Paladin and "fell" to Blackguard, and then renounced his alligiance to the Dark Side just before he bit the dust. That merely turned him from Sith into a Fallen Jedi. </nitpick>


A paladin's life is a calling. Once you step down from that, i.e. changing class, my only guess is the god gives you the power for services rendered. That's why you still keep the powers after leaving the "service" of your god. As long as you remain on his good side, he'll allow you to keep your powers. The code of Conduct is just a way to make the paladin larger than life. To make him seem absolute in his power. To make him an avatar of his god. Once he's no longer an avatar. Why would th god make you follow the Code?

Your god doesn't "make" you follow your paladin code (if he has to force you it's not really your calling is it?). YOU chose to follow a chivalric ideal, YOU swear to uphold truth and justice. Because you believe in it. So why would you want to change that? And if you do drop the code, why would you still expect to keep your paladin powers?

In D&D 3E, multiclassing does not mean "abandoning" or changing your starting class, (unless you use retraining rules and completely overhaul the character, exchanging x levels of one class for x levels of another). It merely means adding different skills to your portfolio. There are legit feats in various sourcebooks that allow you to freely multiclass between paladin/cleric or even paladin/bard, usually as part of a monastic order background.

I doubt a garden-variety paladin can be called an "avatar". An avatar of a god is clearly defined in D&D. Not even an Exalted paladin is really fit to be an avatar, he is still a mortal.

[Jothki]

If you start as something other than a paladin, become a blackguard, and then become a paladin, do you gain more powers as a blackguard as your paladin level rises? If you gain 11 or more paladin levels in this way, can you still trade them in for blackguard levels?