Is it dead yet?

[Fwiffo86]

Base Issue:

Druid gets beaten down in a fight while in animal form.
Druid fails save vs. Power Word Kill (hp is less than 100).

My understanding is the druid dies. End of story. Result, druid in humanoid form, that is still a corpse.

Reasoning:

The druid did NOT in fact take damage. He suffered a death inducing effect. Reversion does not negate the death effect. The only exception to this is excessive damage, where extra damage carries over into the original form.

Reversion is triggered specifically by Unconsciousness, being reduced to 0 hp (which is NOT dead), and death. Since death is specifically listed as a condition (for lack of a better term) you get a humanoid corpse that is still dead.

Thoughts?

[Madfellow]

Yeah, sounds legit.

[Shadow]

Yep, and anyone who argues that the druid reverts to humanoid form with his HP intact is not the type of player welcome at my table.

[Myzz]

just to be clear...

The druid form, had fewer than 100 hps, not the wild shaped form?

and if you allow this spell to directly affect the druid form and bypass the wild shape form, wouldn't it stand to reason that any psychic damage dealt to druids in wild shape directly affect the druid and not the actual wild shape?

As a a DM I am all for either interpretation as long as it is consistent. IMO you can not bypass wildform in one instance and not in the other. Furthermore, if psionics does ever come out druids would be really hosed.

Back to the original question though... IF the druid shape had more than 100 hps but his wild shape did not I would not allow it to ever kill the druid, I might allow it to kill his wild shape and pop him out... but if you rule that, you couldnt then turn around and kill the druid with less than 100 hps while his wild shape is up, having already set a precedent that the spell does indeed target his wild shape.

[Fwiffo86]

Back to the original question though... IF the druid shape had more than 100 hps but his wild shape did not I would not allow it to ever kill the druid, I might allow it to kill his wild shape and pop him out... but if you rule that, you couldnt then turn around and kill the druid with less than 100 hps while his wild shape is up, having already set a precedent that the spell does indeed target his wild shape.

My understanding is that the druid does NOT have a combined hp pool. He has the HP pool of his form. Thus, his humanoid form does not come into the equation vs PWK.

If at any time his present/active Hp pool is 100 or below, he must make the save. Failing the save makes him dead. There is no damage to the spell. You go from being alive (hp are irrelevant) to dead. And since death (as a condition) triggers reversion, but revision does not remove death, the druid is still dead.

[Shadow]

just to be clear...

The druid form, had fewer than 100 hps, not the wild shaped form?

and if you allow this spell to directly affect the druid form and bypass the wild shape form, wouldn't it stand to reason that any psychic damage dealt to druids in wild shape directly affect the druid and not the actual wild shape?

As a a DM I am all for either interpretation as long as it is consistent. IMO you can not bypass wildform in one instance and not in the other. Furthermore, if psionics does ever come out druids would be really hosed.

Back to the original question though... IF the druid shape had more than 100 hps but his wild shape did not I would not allow it to ever kill the druid, I might allow it to kill his wild shape and pop him out... but if you rule that, you couldnt then turn around and kill the druid with less than 100 hps while his wild shape is up, having already set a precedent that the spell does indeed target his wild shape.

And that's where people are misreading it.
The spell says nothing about HP except for describing available targets.
Once you have a valid target, it doesn't reduce HP. It kills. Period. The druid's HP in humanoid form vs beast form is irrelevant. If the form that he is currently in has less than 100hp at that particular moment and he fails his save:
He's dead.

[Myzz]

The druid's body would have to be still alive... The caster of Power Word Kill can not see that body, so he can not kill that body. If the Wold shape creature were killed and the druid did revert to a different body, that second body would have to be alive as it was not accessible during the casting of Power Word Kill.

From PHB 66, "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 HP's, OR DIE."

Power word kills the wild shape and the druid is in whatever state his caster form was in.

[Shadow]

The druid's body would have to be still alive... The caster of Power Word Kill can not see that body, so he can not kill that body. If the Wold shape creature were killed and the druid did revert to a different body, that second body would have to be alive as it was not accessible during the casting of Power Word Kill.
The druid's body IS the beast's body. They are one and the same. The druid BECAME the beast. There IS NO second body.


From PHB 66, "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 HP's, OR DIE."

Power word kills the wild shape and the druid is in whatever state his caster form was in.

And where does it say that reverting to humanoid form brings the character back to life?
It doesn't. He dies, and he reverts to humanoid form, and he's still dead. Like in the movies when the werewolf gets shot by the silver bullet and dies and transforms back into the priest or whoever. You're left with a dead, naked priest.
PWK doesn't kill the wildshape form. It kills the target. The target is the druid. PWK kills the druid.

[Fwiffo86]

From PHB 66, "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 HP's, OR DIE."

Power word kills the wild shape and the druid is in whatever state his caster form was in.

I'm with Shadow. There is no indication that reversion restores life. Especially vs. Death effects, which by nature, do NOT cause hp damage. Death is specifically called out as a reversion trigger. Reversion being defined as being changed back to your original form, or if you prefer, revision "dispels" the wildshape, ending its effects, nothing more. You still have the death problem to deal with.

I can understand why you think there would be two bodies, given the different Hp pools I was describing. But as Shadow said, its the same body.

[Myzz]

PHB 67, bullet 2:
"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed.... blah blah blah excess dmg"

Combined with the rule that says you revert when you DIE (pg 66 and previous quote), you revert and when you revert you have hit points before you transformed.

Obviously the spell Kills the body you are in. Just like if you were a wizard and had a clone, it does not prevent your soul from traveling to your clone, unless there was some other magic at work.

On a side note, interpreting the spell that way is overly harsh. You could one shot a level 20 druid who was just flying through the air as a little bird, or swimming around as a fish in a fountain or whatever. As well as coupling it with polymorph you could 2 shot any bad guy, or true polymorph if you need a higher spell to bypass immunities to low level spells. Which to be honest, is the real reason NOT to rule as your interpretation. Nearly all your high level bad guys could be killed in one round with 2 spells, if the first save was failed.

[Shadow]

You "blah blah blah"'d right over the important part.
Any excess damage carries over.

Q: How much excess damage is there?
A: All of it, because you DIE.

I'm still waiting for you to explain to me exactly where it explains how death is removed via a shapechange.
Wildshape isn't a Get Out of 9th Level Spells Free card. Do you honestly think that a level 2 ability trumps a level 9 spell?
That's ridiculous.

[Fwiffo86]

PHB 67, bullet 2:
"When you transform, you assume the beast's hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed.... blah blah blah excess dmg"

The druid's hit point total is irrelevant. The spell deals no damage. It makes the druid dead.



Combined with the rule that says you revert when you DIE (pg 66 and previous quote), you revert and when you revert you have hit points before you transformed.

Correct. Your dead body has all of the hit points it had before you died. Death and 0 Hp are two different things.



Obviously the spell Kills the body you are in. Just like if you were a wizard and had a clone, it does not prevent your soul from traveling to your clone, unless there was some other magic at work.

Wildshape does not "clone" the druid. And in the clone scenario, the spirit moves to the clone as per normal. That does not change the fact that the original body is now dead.


On a side note, interpreting the spell that way is overly harsh. You could one shot a level 20 druid who was just flying through the air as a little bird, or swimming around as a fish in a fountain or whatever. As well as coupling it with polymorph you could 2 shot any bad guy, or true polymorph if you need a higher spell to bypass immunities to low level spells. Which to be honest, is the real reason NOT to rule as your interpretation. Nearly all your high level bad guys could be killed in one round with 2 spells, if the first save was failed.

Yes, it is harsh. But it is what it is. It isn't the first spell to just flat out kill someone. If it dealt damage instead, your interpretation would be correct, due to the extra damage carrying over to the humanoid form. But again, the spell doesn't deal damage. It just flat out kills.

Visual Aid:

Druid Condition List:

[Wild Shape]

-fails save vs. PWK

[Wild Shape]
[Death]

- reversion triggers removing Wild Shape

[Death]

[Myzz]

Power word kill does 0... ZERO dmg, it kills the target you can see (if it has less than 100 hps)

You see whatever form the druid is in and Kill it! The form dies and the druid reverts per the rules. Page 66 says "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to zero hitpoints, OR DIE." In this case power word kills you, and you revert. There is no damage to carry over, since power word kill does no damage. NOTE it does not say that the wild shape dies. It says you, as in you the druid.

I skipped that part because someone had previously posted that indeed the spell does no damage and everyone seemed on board with that.

If you just want to kill the druid, drop a meteor on him the size as the state of Texas, no save...his wild form dies, he reverts and is crushed to death or burned to cinders your choice, or both...

BUT no level 9 spell 1 shots any level 20 character at his normal full HP's, including this one... AND yes the DRUID could potentially be at full HP in this scenario, the wild shape he is in however is not and that does indeed die.

On a side NOTE: if a druid's wild shape was killed by a flaming sphere over him, or within 5ft if you want to rule the sphere is a solid mass, the druid then reverts does he take dmg to his druid form for being so close to the flaiming sphere immediately? lets assume the druid moved within range on his turn attacked and got hit by more damage than he expected, his turn ends so takes dmg from flaming sphere which does no carryover dmg, but does kill his shape? I would rule that the dmg took place at the end of his turn and so only takes it once, therefor reverted form takes no dmg this turn...

[Joe the Rat]

Heh, there are all sorts of fun options here. Get caught in the wrong form at the wrong time, and Sleep becomes an issue.

[Fwiffo86]

BUT no level 9 spell 1 shots any level 20 character at his normal full HP's, including this one... AND yes the DRUID could potentially be at full HP in this scenario, the wild shape he is in however is not and that does indeed die.

We are not discussing "Full" hit points. For the purposes of the scenario, the Druid is a viable target. Meaning he meets the 100 or less Hp requirement at the time of casting.

This scenario requires that the druid by whatever is necessary is at 100 hp or less in the form he is in. Be that previously damaged, Max Hp of the form is not 101 or higher, etc.. So yes, since virtually all forms available to the druid for wildshape are 100 hp or less, yes, you can just go... "DRUID! PWK!"

The ultimate issue is that Death effects are not removed by reversion from wildshape. They simply trigger reversion.

On a side NOTE: if a druid's wild shape was killed by a flaming sphere over him, or within 5ft if you want to rule the sphere is a solid mass, the druid then reverts does he take dmg to his druid form for being so close to the flaiming sphere immediately? lets assume the druid moved within range on his turn attacked and got hit by more damage than he expected, his turn ends so takes dmg from flaming sphere which does no carryover dmg, but does kill his shape? I would rule that the dmg took place at the end of his turn and so only takes it once, therefor reverted form takes no dmg this turn...

I concur as per the tenants of the spell. The sphere does damage when it is required too. Beginning of his next turn, or first entering the sphere. Since the druid is already in the sphere, that damage is dealt already (to his Wildshape form) and at the beginning of his next turn, his humanoid form takes the spheres damage.


Heh, there are all sorts of fun options here. Get caught in the wrong form at the wrong time, and Sleep becomes an issue.

Yes, you are correct. The same applies to all characters. Sleep is viable until level 20 because of this. Unfortunately, you can still roll like garbage though.

[Talin]

The druid's body IS the beast's body. They are one and the same. The druid BECAME the beast. There IS NO second body.



And where does it say that reverting to humanoid form brings the character back to life?
It doesn't. He dies, and he reverts to humanoid form, and he's still dead. Like in the movies when the werewolf gets shot by the silver bullet and dies and transforms back into the priest or whoever. You're left with a dead, naked priest.
PWK doesn't kill the wildshape form. It kills the target. The target is the druid. PWK kills the druid.

That has to be the most solid callout of a rule I have seen on these forums yet, and I am going to back that call as a seasoned DM. As far as I am concerned the fact a druid can Wild Shape get his ass kicked, revert and still have HP is one hell of a feature to have, and certainly gives enough of an edge in combat.

When faced with "Power Word Kill" it doesn't matter what it is, that spell is going to KILL anything that it is directed towards if it has less than 100 HP, No save, no nothing just Dead. Really as far as I'm concerned unless you are a D10 Hit die or higher with 14 CON don't expect to survive unless you are level 13 or higher.

[Occasional Sage]

The druid is dead, regardless of xir form when PWK was cast. The druid's current HP total allows targeting, and the spell kills the target.

The druid may revert to human form if Wild Shaped (I haven't looked at wording); if so, the body is still dead in the new form.

[Eslin]

Just be aware that means anyone with CWB and anyone with power word: kill is basically an instant victory against pretty much any foe. Drop a couple of spells, the druid/bard summons 24 pixies and then the other caster uses PW:K on the enemy once they fail one of their 24 saves against polymorph.

It's like the whole 'do seperated parts disappear once the transformed person changes back' thing - if they do, infinite free poison. If they don't, you can use the body parts/transformed body parts to pull all kinds of tricks, can tracelessly murder someone by feeding them bits of druid and then transforming the druid back to instantly kill them once they've incorporated the flesh into themselves.

[JAL_1138]

...either 20th-level druids are functionally immortal or a two-spell combo kills anything in the world in pretty much one round. Oy...you'd think they'd catch this kind of thing, as long as the playtest ran for.

[Yoroichi]

We had a similar situation in our group.

A dire wolf shapeshifted druid got attacked by a mind flayer and has his brain exhumed which makes you dead.

We ruled that the original form died as well, what are your thoughts?

I understand and am with the reasoning that the original form dies as well, but when you shapeshift, brain shapeshifts to brain ?

[Myzz]

still think all of you who say the druid is dead are missing the part that says when he dies in wild shape he reverts back to his normal form and when he reverts he reverts to whatever hit points he had. It explicitly states that.

Power word kill, does NOT Kill the target. It causes it to die. This is an important distinction because, in the druid description of what causes him to revert it says: "you can revert to normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious. drop to 0 hit points, or die."

later

"... When you revert to normal form, you return to the number of hitpoints you had before dropping to 0 hitpoints, any excess (which does not apply in this case as PWK does no dmg)..."

PRK does not infact Kill you, it makes you die. It does not make you dead... It does not attach the state of being dead. It causes the target to die, so you follow rules as written as to what happens when that specific character dies. In this case the Druid dies, he reverts as noted in his wild shape description, and when he does so he has whatever hit points he had prior to reverting. Power word Kill is an instantaneous spell so its effect of making the druid die does not linger until after he reverts...

Polymorph and other such spells that transform creature/character have very similar descriptors, so this 2 shot combo does not work on them either.


Druid Takes on wild shape -> Wizard casts PWK on druid -> Druid dies in wild shape (PRK is over and done instantly) -> Druid reverts to normal form -> because druid was forced to revert due to dying he has whatever hit points he had prior to reverting

per the rules the druid's normal form could have 1 hit point and if he reverts to a 1 HP bug, and a wizard cast PWK on the druid, he would only cause the druid to revert to normal form, per RAW.

How everyone seems to be deviating from this simple progression of sequences baffles me. I do not understand what you are misreading (or what I am misreading). This seems straight forward and obvious if you read each description fully, and not make assumptions on what you think each aspect does. I believe the misinterpretation is in what PWK actually does. In PHB there is no state of being dead listed as a condition. PWK does not attach the state of being dead, and it does not say it kills the target. PWK explicitly says the target dies. Druid reversion does not say that the druid only reverts as a result of dying due to HP damage, it actually says it reverts due to being reduced to 0 HP AND if the druid dies...

Please explain how you can come to any other conclusion using the wording of these two event citing sources please. I am extremely confused...

[Fwiffo86]

We had a similar situation in our group.

A dire wolf shapeshifted druid got attacked by a mind flayer and has his brain exhumed which makes you dead.

We ruled that the original form died as well, what are your thoughts?

I understand and am with the reasoning that the original form dies as well, but when you shapeshift, brain shapeshifts to brain ?

Fundamentally, it boils down to death caused without loss of Hp. If something insta-kills, it doesn't matter what Hp total the target is at.

Druids wildshaped into a creature are not two separate entities sharing space. It is one creature. Kill it in any form, and the druid dies.

[Fwiffo86]

Power word kill, does NOT Kill the target. It causes it to die.

Which part of die does not equal kill?



"... When you revert to normal form, you return to the number of hitpoints you had before dropping to 0 hitpoints, any excess (which does not apply in this case as PWK does no dmg)..."


I will state again... You are correct. The dead body of the druid has all of the hit points it had before the wild shape. You have a corpse with X number of hit points.

Being at zero hit points does NOT kill you. In fact, you simply fall unconscious and start to make checks to AVOID DYING, because you are not dead.... yet.

Put another way: At no point does the druid lose hit points from PWK. In every step, he still has hit points. PWK doesn't take them away. His wildshaped form still has all the hit points it had when the spell connected. But he still dies.

Power word kill snuffs out your lifeforce. The target does not take any damage, they just die. Sort of like a heart attack in a healthy 30 year old. No damage is applied, they just die.



PRK does not infact Kill you, it makes you die. It does not make you dead... It does not attach the state of being dead. It causes the target to die, so you follow rules as written as to what happens when that specific character dies. In this case the Druid dies, he reverts as noted in his wild shape description, and when he does so he has whatever hit points he had prior to reverting. Power word Kill is an instantaneous spell so its effect of making the druid die does not linger until after he reverts...


Again, just to be clear. Wildshape clearly calls out the following conditions for involuntary reversion to humanoid form: Unconsciousness, being reduced to 0 hit points, and DEATH. Since it is called out specifically, logic states that this is a separate condition/issue. No where in the description does it say it restores the druid to life. Dead.... is..... dead. It is not a magic life restoring ability.

By your logic, you should be able to restore characters who died from hp loss simply by making a healing check and restoring 1 hp. Or casting a healing spell on the dead body.



Polymorph and other such spells that transform creature/character have very similar descriptors, so this 2 shot combo does not work on them either.


Except you are completely incorrect, as stated above.



Druid Takes on wild shape -> Wizard casts PWK on druid -> Druid dies in wild shape (PRK is over and done instantly) -> Druid reverts to normal form -> because druid was forced to revert due to dying he has whatever hit points he had prior to reverting

Yes. A very dead 130 hp corpse. He is still dead.



How everyone seems to be deviating from this simple progression of sequences baffles me. I do not understand what you are misreading (or what I am misreading).


You are not understanding that the hit points of the druid are not remotely relevant to the fact that he is dead. Once you are dead, you need some form of magic that specifically restores to you life. (see cleric spells) The druid's hit points of his humanoid form, DO NOT UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE carry the power to restore him to life once he has suffered a death effect.



This seems straight forward and obvious if you read each description fully, and not make assumptions on what you think each aspect does. I believe the misinterpretation is in what PWK actually does. In PHB there is no state of being dead listed as a condition. PWK does not attach the state of being dead, and it does not say it kills the target. PWK explicitly says the target dies. Druid reversion does not say that the druid only reverts as a result of dying due to HP damage, it actually says it reverts due to being reduced to 0 HP AND if the druid dies...


You are correct, it is a separate trigger. But it does not remove the fact that the druid is dead. Death is not listed as a condition because everyone knows what it means. It means your character stops moving, stops having actions, can't cast spells, talk, move, dance, twitch, nothing. Everyone knows that. It didn't have to be listed because it doesn't require definition in mechanical terms! Your argument is not valid.

[Myzz]

no where does it say when a druid Dies in wild shape that he is dead. It actually says when he dies he reverts. When he reverts he has his previous HPs. There is no caveat that if he reverts to dying that he is still dead.


Druid's are not essentially immortal. You just need to do lots of dmg that carryover to their actual body, or do enough dmg to force them to revert then PWK them in their actual form. Or use Moonbeam or something similar to force them to revert then PWK them, or beat them down. Wild shape is a bonus action for moon druid's but it still has to be used on their turn.

And again you keep using Kill, thats its name not its function. Its function is to make a creature die. A very specific word that has very specific meanings in this context. It could have said it kills the creature, or it could have said that the creature suffers death, which is how it is worded in the Death Saving Throws section. PWK could have also stated suffers Instant Death.

I would agree that you do not get any saving throws however.

Mechanically why do you think a druid's actual body does not take any dmg while they are in wild shape, same thing for those who are polymorphed? Magic wise I would say that creature X was summoned and they took possession of it. The carry over dmg was caused mid attack/spell/effect and the druid's actual body was subject to partial effects. Since the druid has a mechanism to heal himself while in wild shape giving him HP's prior to wild shape upon reversion makes sense no other way. The drui'd body must not have suffered any of the injuries, therefor must have been in a temporary dimensional stasis while wild shaped. Makes sense in regards to their 18th level ability Timeless Body; they spend so much time wild shaped that their normal body does not suffer aging as normal since it is in temporal stasis. Of course thats merely my interpretation not RAW.

[Fwiffo86]

no where does it say when a druid Dies in wild shape that he is dead. It actually says when he dies he reverts. When he reverts he has his previous HPs. There is no caveat that if he reverts to dying that he is still dead.


Druid's are not essentially immortal. You just need to do lots of dmg that carryover to their actual body, or do enough dmg to force them to revert then PWK them in their actual form. Or use Moonbeam or something similar to force them to revert then PWK them, or beat them down. Wild shape is a bonus action for moon druid's but it still has to be used on their turn.

And again you keep using Kill, thats its name not its function. Its function is to make a creature die. A very specific word that has very specific meanings in this context. It could have said it kills the creature, or it could have said that the creature suffers death, which is how it is worded in the Death Saving Throws section. PWK could have also stated suffers Instant Death.

I would agree that you do not get any saving throws however.

Mechanically why do you think a druid's actual body does not take any dmg while they are in wild shape, same thing for those who are polymorphed? Magic wise I would say that creature X was summoned and they took possession of it. The carry over dmg was caused mid attack/spell/effect and the druid's actual body was subject to partial effects. Since the druid has a mechanism to heal himself while in wild shape giving him HP's prior to wild shape upon reversion makes sense no other way. The drui'd body must not have suffered any of the injuries, therefor must have been in a temporary dimensional stasis while wild shaped. Makes sense in regards to their 18th level ability Timeless Body; they spend so much time wild shaped that their normal body does not suffer aging as normal since it is in temporal stasis. Of course thats merely my interpretation not RAW.

I have read your responses multiple times. I think I understand what you are trying to say. You are thinking that die/dying/etc. is like walking. It takes some time to accomplish. It is separate from being dead. However, this is not the case. You are either alive, or you are dead.

The only mechanical situation in which this might apply as you are interpreting it is the situation where damage has been applied to reduce someone to 0 hp, and they must make death checks to avoid "dying". Basically, as I understand it, you think PWK puts you in this state. And by having hit points, you immediately come out of this state (no rolls needed). You will notice that 0 hp is specifically listed for reversion for this very reason. If this were the case, PWK would be a completely useless spell to use, as it is incapable of dealing damage, or actually killing anyone. Think about it, if all it does is force death checks which are immediately negated because you have positive hp, what is the point?

This is not how PWK works. PWK skips the death check scenario altogether, and causes instant death. No death checks. No "dying" situation. You go from being alive, to dead. This is where your understanding is not correct.

[Myzz]

I understand that part as my last line before the spoiler would indicate.

I don't understand how or why it bypasses the druid's reversion rules. Dying being a condition that causes them to revert, and when they revert they have HP as before wild shape. No where does it say to do otherwise. They could have put that reversion due to death left them dead, but they do not, same with all the polymorph effects.

I would think that the reduced to 0 HP, or Die caveat is put in there for this exact reason. Instant Death due to HP carry over would kill them as normal. But the effect of PWK is they Die. When they die while in wildshape they revert. When they revert they go back to their HP's.

As a side note I do like the idea that PWK and any Psychic dmg bypasses forms. And would actually work as you intend. I just do not think that is what RAW states.

[Fwiffo86]

I would think that the reduced to 0 HP, or Die caveat is put in there for this exact reason. Instant Death due to HP carry over would kill them as normal. But the effect of PWK is they Die. When they die while in wildshape they revert. When they revert they go back to their HP's.


I have repeatedly stated that this is correct. The only difference is, they are still dead. Having a positive Hp does not change that. They revert. Absolutely. They have all their hit points. Absolutely. They are also dead.

More importantly, PWK doesn't temporarily drop them to 0 hp. It doesn't affect hp at all. That is not part of the scenario/equation/situation.

[Rowan Wolf]

Base Issue:

Druid gets beaten down in a fight while in animal form.
Druid fails save vs. Power Word Kill (hp is less than 100).

My understanding is the druid dies. End of story. Result, druid in humanoid form, that is still a corpse.

Reasoning:

The druid did NOT in fact take damage. He suffered a death inducing effect. Reversion does not negate the death effect. The only exception to this is excessive damage, where extra damage carries over into the original form.

Reversion is triggered specifically by Unconsciousness, being reduced to 0 hp (which is NOT dead), and death. Since death is specifically listed as a condition (for lack of a better term) you get a humanoid corpse that is still dead.

Thoughts?
I don't think there is a save for Power Word: Kill

Major oversight for the wild shape design as (as far as I can find) there isn't a form that would have enough hit points undamaged not to be vulnerable to Power Word Kill. That being say a wizard with only +1 con bonus (non hill dwarf) can't even survive that spell the level that he/she would gain access to it.

[Fwiffo86]

I don't think there is a save for Power Word: Kill

Major oversight for the wild shape design as (as far as I can find) there isn't a form that would have enough hit points undamaged not to be vulnerable to Power Word Kill. That being say a wizard with only +1 con bonus (non hill dwarf) can't even survive that spell the level that he/she would gain access to it.

This is true. However, its a what? 9th level spell? So you can expect 1 casting per combat, unless you line your combats with power casters.

[Particle_Man]

I felt a great disturbance on the Messageboards, as if millions of 20th level Moon Druids suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

[Rowan Wolf]

This is true. However, its a what? 9th level spell? So you can expect 1 casting per combat, unless you line your combats with power casters.

The spell itself stinks of meta-gaming as the it uses HP total as a 'defense' against it. Too likely to get abused. Unfortunately it is basically the capstone of (in school) offense for both bard (along side true polymorph) and enchanter, until more books are published with spells.

Funny thing about it is that with the removal of spell resistance (which this spell in the previous editions was subject to) kind of make for a will someone is going to die. that being said

[Fwiffo86]

I felt a great disturbance on the Messageboards, as if millions of 20th level Moon Druids suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced.

My name is Fwiffo86, and I approve this post.

[jaydubs]

They could have put that reversion due to death left them dead, but they do not, same with all the polymorph effects.

I would think that the reduced to 0 HP, or Die caveat is put in there for this exact reason.

It was put in there for equipment and loot reasons. So druid enemies (or allies) could still drop gear, rather than leave you with a bear corpse when killed.

[Glarnog]

Is this PWK scenario the only one in which a druid in a wild shaped form dies and doesn't revert to his original form with the then current hit points at the time that they wild shaped?

What about fatigue levels? Suffocating? Drowning? The Disintegrate spell? If while wild shaped and poisoned will the poison condition carry over after reverting? If turned to stone would you be unconcious and revert? Or would the time keep ticking on the wild shape form and you revert once your limit of hours in half levels was reached?

[Fwiffo86]

Is this PWK scenario the only one in which a druid in a wild shaped form dies and doesn't revert to his original form with the then current hit points at the time that they wild shaped?

What about fatigue levels? Suffocating? Drowning? The Disintegrate spell? If while wild shaped and poisoned will the poison condition carry over after reverting? If turned to stone would you be unconcious and revert? Or would the time keep ticking on the wild shape form and you revert once your limit of hours in half levels was reached?

No. Any time the druid would "die" from any reason other than loss of Hp, he dies. Sufficient exhaustion, suffocating, drowning all fall in this category.

I'm AFB, but I think disintegrate would kill the druid outright, unless he saved then took the damage.

Poison condition remains even if you die and are restored to life, so I would say you are still poisoned when you revert.

I think for being turned to stone, you "should" revert, but are stone. If the stone effect ends you revert then. The timer is put on hold in this instance.

[Justin Sane]

I'm honestly wondering the demographics (is primarily a player/DM) of the yay/nay (dead druid?) split on this thread. Gut feeling tells me most DMs are voting yay.

[MunkeeGamer]

I think this whole thread could come down to "Does having positive HP determine whether you alive or not?"

That's the only point of contention here. OP is saying HP does not mean you are alive. The people disagreeing are saying that having HP means you are alive.

I don't think this issue is directly, explicitly fleshed out anywhere. It seems to come down to table interpretation. I've got admit, I completely understand OP's point and perspective but I would rule at my table that having positive HPs means you are conscious and alive. I can't justify to a player why their character that has +85hp is dead.

Has anyone seen Hemlock Grove on Netflix? In that show, the werewolf/man is literally, magically inside the current form. So from man to wolf, the wolf rips through his skin and sheds all the blood and guts. Back from wolf to man, the human crawls out through the throat and mouth of the wolf leaving the dead remains behind. It's like a fractal. The point of all this is that since I read the druid form rules, I've interpreted the 5e druid to behave in this way. It explains how the beast form can literally die and the humanoid form come out at an HP prior to transformation. No other werewolf interpretation made much sense with regards to that caveat of the rules.

Given that, my first instinct and my current position still holds true. You PWK the beast and the humanoid form crawl out at the exact HP they had before transforming. I'm not really able to reconcile the effect of returning to positive HP any other way.


I'm honestly wondering the demographics (is primarily a player/DM) of the yay/nay (dead druid?) split on this thread. Gut feeling tells me most DMs are voting yay.

DM here.

[MadBear]

Well, I'm primarily a player and I'd vote "dead is dead is dead".

If you get hit with a PWK you die and revert and are still very much dead.

[Fwiffo86]

I think this whole thread could come down to "Does having positive HP determine whether you alive or not?"

That's the only point of contention here. OP is saying HP does not mean you are alive. The people disagreeing are saying that having HP means you are alive.

I don't think this issue is directly, explicitly fleshed out anywhere. It seems to come down to table interpretation. I've got admit, I completely understand OP's point and perspective but I would rule at my table that having positive HPs means you are conscious and alive. I can't justify to a player why their character that has +85hp is dead.

Has anyone seen Hemlock Grove on Netflix? In that show, the werewolf/man is literally, magically inside the current form. So from man to wolf, the wolf rips through his skin and sheds all the blood and guts. Back from wolf to man, the human crawls out through the throat and mouth of the wolf leaving the dead remains behind. It's like a fractal. The point of all this is that since I read the druid form rules, I've interpreted the 5e druid to behave in this way. It explains how the beast form can literally die and the humanoid form come out at an HP prior to transformation. No other werewolf interpretation made much sense with regards to that caveat of the rules.

Given that, my first instinct and my current position still holds true. You PWK the beast and the humanoid form crawl out at the exact HP they had before transforming. I'm not really able to reconcile the effect of returning to positive HP any other way.



DM here.

DM here.

I'm curious. How do you reconcile death from exhaustion? Or old age? They aren't HP related any more than PWK is.

[visitor]

Sorry I think I'm late to the party but just found this thread.

I think the idea that Power Word Kill would kill the druid even in wild shape is a good point, but just not RAW.

The problem seems that more is being attributed to PWK than what is really written about it.

PWK doesn't describe some ultimate death or life force squelching just because it's a crazy awesome 9th level spell. Otherwise, do you rule similarly with a vorpal blade hit (no hp dam, just kills) or nine lives stealer weapon? What if a druid in wolf form falls into a pool and drowns? Suffocates? Or a potent poison that kills on failed saves without regard to hps?

From there, then you'd need to consider the aftereffects of spells like disintegrate or finger of death...how much "carry over" happens to the druid from his wild shape.



As an aside, you could rule the druid dead if druid + wild shape had less than 100 hp for PWK. And/or druid takes the left over of 100 hp damage or some sort.

[holygroundj]

Player here, and I love how overpowered wildshape is (munchkin at heart):

Dying in wild shape form is dying. Having positive HP does not mean you are alive any more than having 0 or negative hp means you are dead.

So if you look at what can take you out of wild shape:

Falling unconscious. Someone casts sleep on you and you fall unconscious. You are alive, and revert to your caster form, including its HP. You are not dead, but you are unconscious.

Dropping to 0 hit points. You are hit by a fireball and are dropped to exactly 0 HP. You are alive and revert to your caster form including its HP . You do not fall unconscious per the rules of 0 hp because the wildshape reverting rulesuperceedes that rule.

Dying: Someone casts PW:K on you (or wish or whatever). You die and revert to your caster form, including the HP of that form. Even if this would make you immune to the spell, you're still dead (the spell is over and has killed you).

Just because you might have more HP than you did in animal form doesn't mean you're alive. The amount of HP you have when you die is not relevant to this dead state. We did not arrive to this state through the HP > failed death save > dead rule of dying.

I understand why some people would argue otherwise. But while wildshape is a type of shield for HP (as in, when you wildshape you gaint something that resembles temp HP, but isn't, really) It doesn't shield your caster form from any other conditions. And being dead is a condition.

[MunkeeGamer]

DM here.

I'm curious. How do you reconcile death from exhaustion? Or old age? They aren't HP related any more than PWK is.

In my game, if they were exhausted, they would be losing HP. They could not go into a fight, on the brink of death from exhaustion, with the same HP as someone in perfectly comfortable eating, drinking, and climate conditions. A couple hits and they would be down. That would be need to be tracked by HP.

Additionally, by old age, their Constitution would be dropping until it hit zero. You don't just "die" from old age, it's from series of organ failures due to tissue degradation. That would be tracked by constitution being reduced until they were dead.

This is, of course, how I would manage it at my table. I don't really play with random strangers, or really even people I don't know. I also never visit game shop events where you all roll and play with complete strangers. I would not consider that environment to be where I would have the most fun. I have a feeling that in those circles, they would agree with you, however. It's just not a judement for me and my table would go for.

[deusflac]

PWK doesn't describe some ultimate death or life force squelching just because it's a crazy awesome 9th level spell. Otherwise, do you rule similarly with a vorpal blade hit (no hp dam, just kills) or nine lives stealer weapon? What if a druid in wolf form falls into a pool and drowns? Suffocates? Or a potent poison that kills on failed saves without regard to hps?


well if a druid gets vorpaled in wild shape, how would one justify getting their head back once reverted? a headless wild shaped druid reverts to a headless humanoid druid imo.

here's the wording for PWK (emphasis mine): You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.

so you target the wild shaped druid, it dies. it reverts. does the creature change? no. it's still the same creature. it's still dead.

i do agree too many people are getting hung up on the whole "but the druid still has HP therefore alive" argument, but as the spell is written, HP doesnt matter. a hale and hearty creature with less than 100 HP goes from living to dead, still with 100 HP.

[MunkeeGamer]

Dying in wild shape form is dying. Having positive HP does not mean you are alive any more than having 0 or negative hp means you are dead.

Like I said, this is the only point of debate here. I simply disagree with that statement.

[Laurefindel]

If I may chime in...

Strictly by RaW, I agree that the druid should die. If the druid does not have 100 hp by the time he/she's hit by the Power Word Kill, he/she dies. It's a powerful spell, it's a 9th level spell...

However, I do believe this situation should be opened to interpretation. Otherwise, a 20th level druid at full health and wild shaping into a hawk would be killed after receiving 2 points of damage due to massive damage insta-death rule (falcon has 1 hp, instant death if it receives 2 points of damage or more). I find this rather harsh, and makes Polymorph (a 4th level spell) a save-or-die spell regardless of the non-legendary BBEG level or CR. No need to cast PWK after.

Both as a player and as a DM, I'd rather rule that a druid with 150 hp, wild shaping into a 1 hp hawk still has 150 hp, but it is forced to revert back to its original form after taking 1 point of damage. Under this RaI, a druid with more than 100 hp is immune to Power Word Kill regardless of its form.

'findel

[edit] The paragraph on Wild Shape does state that the druid isn't knocked unconscious as long as the remaining damage does not bring the druid's original form to 0hp, but strictly by RaW, this doesn't rule out instant death from massive damage...

[MunkeeGamer]

well if a druid gets vorpaled in wild shape, how would one justify getting their head back once reverted? a headless wild shaped druid reverts to a headless humanoid druid imo.

This is where the show Hemlock Grove becomes relevant. I've interpreted the 5e druid in this way since the beginning and I can't really explain the whole "HP shield" thing any other way. Or, onion druid concept. To me, the shapechange is completely a new creature that is surrounding your humanoid form and your will is driving it like a gundam mobile suit or Eva. You break the suit and the caster crawls out. Anything that would've happened to the caster happens to the beast form instead. Vorpal'd, PWK'd, poison--all of it.

The only way to change my mind on that concept is to remove the line that says you return to your HP before the transformation. If that was gone, none of this discussion would happen.

[Baptor]

I think this whole thread could come down to "Does having positive HP determine whether you alive or not?"

That's the only point of contention here. OP is saying HP does not mean you are alive. The people disagreeing are saying that having HP means you are alive.

I don't think this issue is directly, explicitly fleshed out anywhere. It seems to come down to table interpretation. I've got admit, I completely understand OP's point and perspective but I would rule at my table that having positive HPs means you are conscious and alive. I can't justify to a player why their character that has +85hp is dead

So what you're saying is, if my character who has 90hp is hit with a PWK, which kills me but does not do any hp damage, I do not in fact die?

Because that's what your ruling says. As long as I've got hp, I can't die. Ever. In any circumstances. If I have positive hp I am "conscious and alive." Since PWK doesn't reduce my hp, I am still alive, by your rules.

[Fwiffo86]

So what you're saying is, if my character who has 90hp is hit with a PWK, which kills me but does not do any hp damage, I do not in fact die?

Because that's what your ruling says. As long as I've got hp, I can't die. Ever. In any circumstances. If I have positive hp I am "conscious and alive." Since PWK doesn't reduce my hp, I am still alive, by your rules.

to add to this...

This would render PWK completely useless. It deals not actual damage. So you're hp never drop. It can't kill you as long as you have Hp. Rendering it pointless.

[Shining Wrath]

I'm going to side with Shadow et al. To wax metaphysical for a moment, the HP are associated your body, and the Druid's "soul" inhabits the old and the new bodies, which is why a Wildshaped Druid can still use class abilities, and why dropping to 0 HP sends you back to your old body with its associated HP.

PWK does reduce your HP to 0, but that's a side effect of the main function, which is to KILL you. For playable races, that means it separates the soul from the body. Being killed is a state worse than having 0 HP, as illustrated by the fact that you make saves to stabilize when at 0 HP. When your wild shape form disappears and your normal body appears, the normal body normally has some HP - but in this case there's no soul in the body because PWK is worse than being hit with a sword and reduced to 0 HP, hence no HP remain in the normal body.

Now to complicate matters - if a Celestial or Fiend gains 2 levels of Druid, is hit with PWK while wildshaped, what happens? The soul and the body are one entity. I say the body disappears, which means that any equipment that merged with the wildshaped body also vanishes. This could annoy your friends and companions :smalltongue:

[holygroundj]

So what you're saying is, if my character who has 90hp is hit with a PWK, which kills me but does not do any hp damage, I do not in fact die?

Because that's what your ruling says. As long as I've got hp, I can't die. Ever. In any circumstances. If I have positive hp I am "conscious and alive." Since PWK doesn't reduce my hp, I am still alive, by your rules.

Also, if a character dies, does casting cure wounds on the dead character revive it? Note, I'm not asking about a character who is dying i.e. unstabalized and rolling saving throws for death. I mean someone who failed 3 times.

[kaoskonfety]

Perhaps I'm an old timer:
No save and you die. It's dangerous, but not busted. Power Word: Kill is supposed to make you think twice about... well, power word kill.

From my perspective as a DM:
If you are dealing with people who have 9th level magic you have access to some flavour of raise dead OR you are picking the wrong fights (yes, often players pick the wrong fights, this is not a rules problem and I, the storyteller, always have the option to NOT murder everyone if the get in too deep due to a misjudgement).

Being a Wolf in a fight with a mighty spell caster in a setting where this spell is a thing and you are not 100% sure he has not prepared it? You have made a mistake, a generous DM would not exploit this error and/or may warn you/provide a skill check for you to realize.

NPC Wizard with 9th level magic kills a 'random' passing hawk that happens to be a players powerful druid? Your DM is an ***. There was a comic on this, with Blackwing and archers... made me laugh. Don't be this DM.

Player tosses 9th level spells at random animals in hope that the villain is shape shifted into a bunny? Um... neat, you maniac?

Might make a house rule for a Player vs. Player game but otherwise, you are the big shiny heroes, deal with it.

If I have a player at my table who objects to this ruling I'd be delighted to discuss it - maybe an enhancement feat for the feature that does your full natural forms HP damage to you on being struck by a successful death effect while shape shifted? and you are stunned? maybe exhausted?... ya, that sounds neat and is a sweet a** curve ball for me to put on an enemy druid...
Probably toss a +1 to a stat and/or some other "still alive" or Shape shape buff effect on it cause this is intensely specific.

... Or maybe an entire 'rebirth' Druid class specialization revolving around being difficult to kill while shape-changed capping out at some contingency-reincarnate hilarity? Killing them is easy(ish), keeping them down is hard.

Man now I'm writing a sweet arch-villain in my head... and he even gets a new face every time you kill him so even figuring out its the same foe takes significant work.

[Justin Sane]

Also, if a character dies, does casting cure wounds on the dead character revive it? Note, I'm not asking about a character who is dying i.e. unstabalized and rolling saving throws for death. I mean someone who failed 3 times.What? No, it does not. It most definitely should not. That's what Raise Dead is for.

[Shadow]

What? No, it does not. It most definitely should not. That's what Raise Dead is for.

That was his point.
He was asking because by the previous poster's thought process, having a single hit point means you aren't dead, so with that in mind casting cure wounds on someone that is dead would bring them back to life.
He was being facetious.

[Baptor]

That was his point.
He was asking because by the previous poster's thought process, having a single hit point means you aren't dead, so with that in mind casting cure wounds on someone that is dead would bring them back to life.
He was being facetious.

Well not quite the previous poster. I was replying to someone with that mindset.

Point is, death is a condition that cannot be remedied by adding hit points. No matter how many times you give a dead man tylenol, he's still dead. Rub ointment on his wounds? Still dead. Cast cure wounds on him? Dead. Death is a condition that can only be remedied by specific spells or effects, such as raise dead or resurrection.

[Justin Sane]

He was being facetious.Whoops. I'll blame the meds for giving me Disadvantage on my Insight roll.

[holygroundj]

Well not quite the previous poster. I was replying to someone with that mindset.

Point is, death is a condition that cannot be remedied by adding hit points. No matter how many times you give a dead man tylenol, he's still dead. Rub ointment on his wounds? Still dead. Cast cure wounds on him? Dead. Death is a condition that can only be remedied by specific spells or effects, such as raise dead or resurrection.

which is why I argue that power word kill kills the druid. It doesn't matter if the caster form has 1 hitpoint or a thousand. If the dead condition is applied to the wildshaped druid, it's dead, no matter how many hit points it has. My only problem is I'm AFB right now, so I have to ask: what conditions maintain application when a druid reverts to their normal form?

[Laurefindel]

From my perspective as a DM:
If you are dealing with people who have 9th level magic you have access to some flavour of raise dead OR you are picking the wrong fights (yes, often players pick the wrong fights, this is not a rules problem and I, the storyteller, always have the option to NOT murder everyone if the get in too deep due to a misjudgement).

By curiosity, how would you deal with Instant Death by massive damage, which is also a "death effect" and is based on the hp. If your hp = the hp of your current form, then it doesn't need a 9th level spell to screw you up. It only takes 2 points of damage to instantaneously kill a hawk by massive damage.

As you go up in level, the likelihood that one single attack deals at least twice as much damage as your current form has hp get pretty high.

[Koury]

Death is a condition that can only be remedied by specific spells or effects, such as raise dead or resurrection.

The real problem here is that death isn't a condition at all. At least, not that I see in the PHB. If it was, than there would be no problem here.

From a strictly RAW, rules-lawyery perspective, all being dead does is prevents you from healing (PHB pg 197, under Healing). On the opposite page, under Hit Points, it says that you are fully capable of acting so long as you have more than 0 HP. Therefore, the Druid would be Dead, and revert to caster form with all his HP, able to act as normal. He would no longer be able to heal, as he is dead, until he is brought back to life via Raise Dead-type magic.

I'm not saying any of this is how I believe it to be intended, nor how I would run my game. I just think this is how it actually works RAW. By all means, point me to the rules that say otherwise. I want to be wrong here.

[Baptor]

The real problem here is that death isn't a condition at all. At least, not that I see in the PHB. If it was, than there would be no problem here.

From a strictly RAW, rules-lawyery perspective, all being dead does is prevents you from healing (PHB pg 197, under Healing). On the opposite page, under Hit Points, it says that you are fully capable of acting so long as you have more than 0 HP. Therefore, the Druid would be Dead, and revert to caster form with all his HP, able to act as normal. He would no longer be able to heal, as he is dead, until he is brought back to life via Raise Dead-type magic.

I'm not saying any of this is how I believe it to be intended, nor how I would run my game. I just think this is how it actually works RAW. By all means, point me to the rules that say otherwise. I want to be wrong here.

If the rule on hit points is applied fully that you mention, it means PWK would never kill anyone, ever. It does not reduce your hp to zero, therefore you can't die because you have hit points. Its absurd.

[Shadow]

This isn't a matter of finding a page number to extrapolate and explain the RAW.
This is a matter of 5e running on a different engine, where this new engine doesn't feel the need to describe exactly what happens when you die, because common sense plays itself out here.
The 3e rules lawyers are having an extremely difficult time with this concept, because they want a page number telling them exactly what happens to you when you're dead.
Everyone else understand that when you die, you stay dead until such time as you are brought back to life by some means.

[Yagyujubei]

Power word kill does 0... ZERO dmg, it kills the target you can see (if it has less than 100 hps)

You see whatever form the druid is in and Kill it! The form dies and the druid reverts per the rules. Page 66 says "You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to zero hitpoints, OR DIE." In this case power word kills you, and you revert. There is no damage to carry over, since power word kill does no damage. NOTE it does not say that the wild shape dies. It says you, as in you the druid.

I skipped that part because someone had previously posted that indeed the spell does no damage and everyone seemed on board with that.

If you just want to kill the druid, drop a meteor on him the size as the state of Texas, no save...his wild form dies, he reverts and is crushed to death or burned to cinders your choice, or both...

BUT no level 9 spell 1 shots any level 20 character at his normal full HP's, including this one... AND yes the DRUID could potentially be at full HP in this scenario, the wild shape he is in however is not and that does indeed die.

On a side NOTE: if a druid's wild shape was killed by a flaming sphere over him, or within 5ft if you want to rule the sphere is a solid mass, the druid then reverts does he take dmg to his druid form for being so close to the flaiming sphere immediately? lets assume the druid moved within range on his turn attacked and got hit by more damage than he expected, his turn ends so takes dmg from flaming sphere which does no carryover dmg, but does kill his shape? I would rule that the dmg took place at the end of his turn and so only takes it once, therefor reverted form takes no dmg this turn...

your problem here is assuming that wild form counts as a different body for the druid. it doesn't. it's simply the druid's body shapechanged into the form of another creature. so when the wildshaped body dies to PWK, it reverts to the un-shapchanged, but still very dead body of the druid, since they are the same.

[Baptor]

This isn't a matter of finding a page number to extrapolate and explain the RAW.
This is a matter of 5e running on a different engine, where this new engine doesn't feel the need to describe exactly what happens when you die, because common sense plays itself out here.
The 3e rules lawyers are having an extremely difficult time with this concept, because they want a page number telling them exactly what happens to you when you're dead.
Everyone else understand that when you die, you stay dead until such time as you are brought back to life by some means.

I like this Shadow, he speaks good words.

[deusflac]

here's a question that ties into this discussion mainly aimed at the folks who believe the druid would survive getting PWK'd while wild shaped. it was touched upon very lightly earlier.

what happens to a wild shaped druid who get hit by a nat 20 with a vorpal sword? their head is chopped off and they are dead, which would trigger them to revert back to caster form. now when they revert, are they headless?

[SharkForce]

here's a question that ties into this discussion mainly aimed at the folks who believe the druid would survive getting PWK'd while wild shaped. it was touched upon very lightly earlier.

what happens to a wild shaped druid who get hit by a nat 20 with a vorpal sword? their head is chopped off and they are dead, which would trigger them to revert back to caster form. now when they revert, are they headless?

headless in the sense that their head is separated from their body, yes.

regarding the death from massive damage rule: you hit 0 HP, you revert, further damage is applied to your natural form, not to your wild shaped form. no chance of death from massive damage, unless the remaining damage is enough to go through your natural form's HP and overkill by your maximum HP.

[Koury]

I like this Shadow, he speaks good words.

Does he though? Because the whole issue is that 5e is NOT a whole different beast from 3e. It does NOT have a different engine, really. It still is based on three rule books that serve only to specify what you are able to do and when. The rules are what give you the entirety of your options. If there isn't a line somewhere saying that you can do something, you generally can't. So it is not really any surprise that when you exclude rules on something so basic to the game as death, that these issues arise.

Now keep in mind, as far as the issue at hand, I am personally undecided. Same for the Vorpal sword example (though for some reason I lean toward caster form being alive there, which is its own problem). But getting all uppity because people want the rules to actually give rulings on these matters is not a thing that I think is good. Being a jerk and telling people that they're dumb (or, I'm sorry, having trouble grasping the concept) for wanting clear and concise solutions is elitist and rude. It serves to stifle conversation. Which, I assume, is intended. And as such, I will have to disagree about those words being particularly good.

The problem here, with regards to Druids and Death effects, is due to the rules being insufficient. They should have been made more clear. That's it. It has nothing to do with common sense or lack thereof. Because the rules are insufficient, there are logical arguments for both sides. Feel free to debate the merits of your own side, and feel free to point out inconsistencies in the other side. But try to do so without being an ass.

[Fwiffo86]

What makes more sense?

Druids can ignore death effects due to wildshape?

Power Word Kill is an empty 9th level spell that couldn't kill a housefly?

The baseline issue is as I said: Wildshape does not prevent death effects. There are spells that do. Rather lower level spells I might add.

[Baptor]

Does he though? Because the whole issue is that 5e is NOT a whole different beast from 3e. It does NOT have a different engine, really. It still is based on three rule books that serve only to specify what you are able to do and when. The rules are what give you the entirety of your options. If there isn't a line somewhere saying that you can do something, you generally can't. So it is not really any surprise that when you exclude rules on something so basic to the game as death, that these issues arise.

Now keep in mind, as far as the issue at hand, I am personally undecided. Same for the Vorpal sword example (though for some reason I lean toward caster form being alive there, which is its own problem). But getting all uppity because people want the rules to actually give rulings on these matters is not a thing that I think is good. Being a jerk and telling people that they're dumb (or, I'm sorry, having trouble grasping the concept) for wanting clear and concise solutions is elitist and rude. It serves to stifle conversation. Which, I assume, is intended. And as such, I will have to disagree about those words being particularly good.

The problem here, with regards to Druids and Death effects, is due to the rules being insufficient. They should have been made more clear. That's it. It has nothing to do with common sense or lack thereof. Because the rules are insufficient, there are logical arguments for both sides. Feel free to debate the merits of your own side, and feel free to point out inconsistencies in the other side. But try to do so without being an ass.

I don't think liking what Shadow said as making sense makes me inpolite, or whatever words you choose to use to mean "inpolite."

So far, I hadn't yet read an argument from the other side that, "Hey guys the rules are just unclear so we have to do what we can to make sense of it." Instead I've seen people trying to do some pretty insane gymnastics with RAW that make no logical sense. That was the part of Shadow's post I agreed with.

I personally didn't take it as offensive to anyone, but if you did, then know that I do not agree with an offensive nature it was communicating.

What I agree with, to be clear, is that many of the "druid lives" crowd are trying to find answers within RAW that simply aren't there. DM fiat is all we have.

[Shining Wrath]

your problem here is assuming that wild form counts as a different body for the druid. it doesn't. it's simply the druid's body shapechanged into the form of another creature. so when the wildshaped body dies to PWK, it reverts to the un-shapchanged, but still very dead body of the druid, since they are the same.

As I said above - the point of PW:K is to separate the soul from the body, instantly. Reducing someone to 0 HP allows them to roll to stabilize and remain alive. PW:K skips that process; your soul is off to the hereafter.

If subsequent to the Great Vacuum in the Sky sucking your soul away your body changes shape back to that of your caster form, that might be convenient for those seeking to loot your corpse, but it's still a corpse.

[MunkeeGamer]

The real problem here is that death isn't a condition at all. At least, not that I see in the PHB. If it was, than there would be no problem here.

From a strictly RAW, rules-lawyery perspective, all being dead does is prevents you from healing (PHB pg 197, under Healing). On the opposite page, under Hit Points, it says that you are fully capable of acting so long as you have more than 0 HP. Therefore, the Druid would be Dead, and revert to caster form with all his HP, able to act as normal. He would no longer be able to heal, as he is dead, until he is brought back to life via Raise Dead-type magic.

I'm not saying any of this is how I believe it to be intended, nor how I would run my game. I just think this is how it actually works RAW. By all means, point me to the rules that say otherwise. I want to be wrong here.

This is what I was trying to get at. Having HP means you are conscious and mobile. The basic reason for this feature is something straightforward, I think. You fight and fight. You drop to 0hp, <something happens to beast form> then you revert back to your original form with all your original HP.

I suppose the next issue that needs cleared up in my head is what is the significant difference between the beast form reaching 0hp from combat and leaving the caster alive and the PWK killing the beast form and leaving the caster dead.

If we're calling death a status effect, then I suppose I might leave that on the druid. His abundance of vital energy took the brunt of the blow but it put him in some near-zombie state until he can get that status cured. The only game play implications being that he can't restore HPs until receiving a raise dead effect. But this is as far as I could possibly take it. The only way to say that PWK kills the beast form and caster completely is to take away any mention of the reversion.

[Fwiffo86]

The problem here, with regards to Druids and Death effects, is due to the rules being insufficient. They should have been made more clear. That's it. It has nothing to do with common sense or lack thereof. Because the rules are insufficient, there are logical arguments for both sides. Feel free to debate the merits of your own side, and feel free to point out inconsistencies in the other side. But try to do so without being an ass.

The rules are not insufficient. The rules clearly list death as a means of reversion, and clearly do not say that it restores you to life.

There is no logical argument to PWK not being able to kill the druid. Reversion is not a restore life.

If you want to view it this way: The druid NEVER hits 0 hp, because the damage carries over into their original form. Unlike all other characters that hit 0 hp and stop. Thus, they never have to make the death checks to avoid dying in this scenario.

Additionally, PWK skips this step as well, but instead of "automatically making the death check" as the above example hints at, you "automatically fail the death check". Your body reverts, just like a dead lycanthrope.

Allowing reversion to ignore this also brings to the table the following for this reason: I'm not dead because I have Hp

Cure wounds will restore dead character who has 0 hp.
Power Work Kill has zero effect
Death effects are only useful when coupled with Hp damage.
Protection from death is now half pointless, remaining so only for negating an instant death damage attack.

I'm sure there are more spells and attacks out there that this completely breaks. Now I ask once more... does this make sense?

[Vogonjeltz]

Instant Death - Damage that drops you to 0 and deals excess damage equal to maximum hit points.
Falling Unconcious - Ends if you regain any hit points.

Wild Shape Reverts if:
X hours elapse
Bonus action on your turn
Automatic if Unconcious, Drop to 0 hit points (which would render unconcious), or Die.

Reverting:
Return to normal hit points.
If reverting from dropping to 0, excess damage applies to normal hit points. Remain concious as long as excess damage doesn't reduce normal hp to 0.


Seems pretty clear. Instant death isn't from dropping to 0, so that doesn't apply, and it's not falling unconcious, so that doesn't apply.

Also, the section on death says a character that dies can not regain any hit points until magic has returned it to life, via such as by revivify.

Fwiffo86 alluded to this, but to repeat, if you are dead you can't regain hit points. So Reverting due to death does nothing for the Druid.

So, that Druid is absolutely dead, if we're going to go by the printed rules.


Also, if a character dies, does casting cure wounds on the dead character revive it? Note, I'm not asking about a character who is dying i.e. unstabalized and rolling saving throws for death. I mean someone who failed 3 times.

No, it does not, a dead character can't regain hit points until magically brought back to life. This is explicitly called out in the rules on death, and it is exactly why reverting does nothing for the Druid if they die outright.

[Fwiffo86]

Also, the section on death says a character that dies can not regain any hit points until magic has returned it to life, via such as by revivify.



Page Number that!!!

[MunkeeGamer]

You guys realize that at your table, you can play however you want? If your players disagree with you and you are the DM the discussion is over because you're the DM.

I've got to say that I'm still inclined to say that the Druid's caster form would emerge unharmed. This is not a game breaking ruling. This is not alter the balance of power in the world. Like someone said before, if you want to one shot a druid, drop a very big rock on him.

It fits more thematically, with the world as I see it, to have the druid who is full of the planets' life force to take the brunt of a 1 PWK to the face and keep going. The second one, however, would finish off the caster form. I like the ruling this way.

[mephnick]

It fits more thematically, with the world as I see it, to have the druid who is full of the planets' life force to take the brunt of a 1 PWK to the face and keep going. The second one, however, would finish off the caster form. I like the ruling this way.

So you've made the druid class mechanically stronger than every other class in the canon of your setting?

I'd be pretty mad if my warlock got killed immediately from a PWK and my friend druid just looked around confused and shrugged his shoulders. That doesn't seem very consistent to me.

[Baptor]

The rules are not insufficient. The rules clearly list death as a means of reversion, and clearly do not say that it restores you to life.

There is no logical argument to PWK not being able to kill the druid. Reversion is not a restore life.

If you want to view it this way: The druid NEVER hits 0 hp, because the damage carries over into their original form. Unlike all other characters that hit 0 hp and stop. Thus, they never have to make the death checks to avoid dying in this scenario.

Additionally, PWK skips this step as well, but instead of "automatically making the death check" as the above example hints at, you "automatically fail the death check". Your body reverts, just like a dead lycanthrope.

Allowing reversion to ignore this also brings to the table the following for this reason: I'm not dead because I have Hp

Cure wounds will restore dead character who has 0 hp.
Power Work Kill has zero effect
Death effects are only useful when coupled with Hp damage.
Protection from death is now half pointless, remaining so only for negating an instant death damage attack.

I'm sure there are more spells and attacks out there that this completely breaks. Now I ask once more... does this make sense?

Exactly right. If PWK can't kill a wild shaped druid because the druid gets its hp back after it reverts, then PWK can't kill anything with at least 1hp.

The ruling has broader implications than this one incident with the wild shaped druid.

[SharkForce]

why does it make sense for the druid's life force to soak a PWK but it doesn't make sense for anything else to do so, except for things that specifically prevent death effects?

i don't care if you are wild shaped. you died. the trigger for you to go back into your own form is death, so if it you didn't actually die, you would not have reverted.

so you died, and that's that. too bad.

afterwards, you need something to fix that problem if you want to be not dead. if you don't use something that specifically fixes the problem of being dead, then you are dead. does wild shape even hint anywhere in the description at making you not be dead any more? i certainly can't find anything that says reverting restores you to life. i can find special rules for when you're dropped to 0 HP, but absolutely nothing whatsoever that says "and if you were dead before you reverted, you cease to be dead", or any variation thereof.

[kaoskonfety]

By curiosity, how would you deal with Instant Death by massive damage, which is also a "death effect" and is based on the hp. If your hp = the hp of your current form, then it doesn't need a 9th level spell to screw you up. It only takes 2 points of damage to instantaneously kill a hawk by massive damage.

As you go up in level, the likelihood that one single attack deals at least twice as much damage as your current form has hp get pretty high.


I suppose I'd say I'm unclear why anyone thinks massive damage applies. One of the conditions that hard stop *ends* the power is being reduced to 0 hp. There is then a clear rule for the "over flow" damage on wild shaped character - you revert to your nature shape and it gets applied to your normal bodies hit point total. I'd assume this specific mention was intended to overrule the general overflow damage guidelines and make the power usable.

This reasoning with the fact that if massive damage is applied this core class feature it ends up somewhere between "desperate escape and retreat power" and "dumb to ever use"?

There is a vast sea between these 2 questions. One applies from level one up and makes the power unusable for dread fear of children critically hitting with slingshots while you are a chicken, compared to the caveat/weakness "don't get Power Word:Killed when you are a pretending to be a duck" (a good rule most days, even when you are not a duck).

[Baptor]

I agree. Massive damage is different. If only because we are dealing with HP in that situation.
This is where RAW falls apart, and while I continue to argue this has to be handled by the DM and not raw.

[Vogonjeltz]

Page Number that!!!

It's the end of the PHB chapter on combat, I don't recall the number off the top of my head. 190something (197,198?)

*198 under the topic: Healing (not death)

[GiantOctopodes]

Yeah, have to agree, I don't see why they would separate hp loss and death in reasons why they revert unless they were distinguishing exactly that- that death can and does occur from sources other than hp loss, and in those events, the druid's corpse reverts.

Vorpal Sword, Exhaustion, Starvation, Drowning (though if a Druid dies of drowning, he really messed up), Suffocation, Power Word Kill, or any other method that kills which does not rely on HP loss does not meaningfully interact with the rules wherein they revert to their previous HP total - it simply stops being relevant what their HP total is or is not. I see nothing that makes me believe a Druid stops being dead because they change forms.

And in terms of Eslin's warning of the resultant "OP" combo of summon woodland beings and PWK, that's fair in my book- two casters using a 9th and 8th level slot can kill (most likely) one creature who is within 120 feet of them, providing you can see them, it is not dark, they are not immune to shapechange or polymorph style effects and / or death effects (depending on your DM's interpretation of "game statistics"), that seems totally acceptable. I will go one step further- a 4 caster party can possibly have someone teleport them in, summon the pixies, polymorph, PWK the target, and teleport out within a round, making the penultimate assassination squad and a fantastic force to send players against.

[Laurefindel]

I agree. Massive damage is different. If only because we are dealing with HP in that situation.
This is where RAW falls apart, and while I continue to argue this has to be handled by the DM and not raw.

Not that different, both massive damage and Power Word Kill are based on hp, and both state that the character is killed instantaneously if not enough hp are left.

Druid has 150 hp, then druid shapeshift into a wolf (11hp)

scenario a) wolf-druid is hit by PWK. Since wolf-druid has less than 100 hp in that form, it it instantaneously dies due to the magic of the spell.

scenario b) wolf-druid is hit by an attack dealing 25 damage. Since wolf druid has 11hp in that form, attack brings it down to -14 hp. Since 14 remaining damage is more than wolf-druid hit point total, it instantaneously dies due to massive damage. This is an instant death effect; wolf-druid does not revert exactly at 0 hp and then take the remaining damage.

[Tenmujiin]

I'm a little late to the party but inanimate objects can have HP. Therefore, having HP =/= being alive. If the druid dies in wild shape, he is dead.

[Tenmujiin]

Wolf-druid is brought down to -14 hp, and since wolf-druid has 11hp, it instantaneously dies due to massive damage.

The druid never gets to -14, it never even gets to -1. The animal form takes damage equal to its health (triggering reversion) and then the druid reverts, taking the 14 remaining damage.

[Laurefindel]

The druid never gets to -14, it never even gets to -1. The animal form takes damage equal to its health (triggering reversion) and then the druid reverts, taking the 14 remaining damage.

[goes back to the book, reads wild shape section]

That sounds rather metagame-y but RaW indeed illustrates it that way. At least it brings some survivability to the class...

This leads me to believe that the RaI behind the rule is that the druid keeps it hp. Only, it's wild shape is dispelled after taking damage equal to the form's hp.

[Tenmujiin]

That sounds rather metagame-y but RaW indeed illustrates it that way. At least it brings some survivability to the class...

This leads me to believe that the RaI behind the rule is that the druid keeps it hp. Only, it's wild shape is dispelled after taking damage equal to the form's hp.

Thats more or less how I saw it, although since sleep was confirmed as an intended weakness to wild shape by a developer tweet I'd also rule that PWK was an even better (9th level) counter.

[Laurefindel]

Thats more or less how I saw it, although since sleep was confirmed as an intended weakness to wild shape by a developer tweet I'd also rule that PWK was an even better (9th level) counter.

Good to know. If sleep was intended to be a weakness for wild shape, then logically PWK should be as well.

[Ohnoeszz]

From a strictly RAW, rules-lawyery perspective, all being dead does is prevents you from healing (PHB pg 197, under Healing). On the opposite page, under Hit Points, it says that you are fully capable of acting so long as you have more than 0 HP. Therefore, the Druid would be Dead, and revert to caster form with all his HP, able to act as normal. He would no longer be able to heal, as he is dead, until he is brought back to life via Raise Dead-type magic.

I'm not saying any of this is how I believe it to be intended, nor how I would run my game. I just think this is how it actually works RAW. By all means, point me to the rules that say otherwise. I want to be wrong here.

This is very relevant. The rules explicitly state(pg. 196):
"The loss of hit points has no effect on the creature's capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points."

That same section also states:
"Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck."

To me, a dead creature inherently lacks "mental durability" and "the will to live." It makes infinitely more sense to reduce a dead creature to 0 hit points rather than leaving them with a floating stat that is meant to depict the creature's life force. That practice alone is simple and helps to clear up some of the issues in this thread.

-----
As much as people want to distinguish between RAW and RAI it isn't entirely doable since language itself is interpreted...Relevant Example:

Power Word Kill states - "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies."

In this thread, everyone seems to agree that the Druid form and the Beast form are considered one creature. Why shouldn't we consider that creature to still "have" the hit points that the Druid form possesses?

A contrary point could say that on pg.67 it says, "your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast...." Then we could have a discussion/argument over whether that change in "game statistics" trumps the fact that this dual form creature technically (at least in one linguistic interpretation) still "has" the hit points of each form.

-----
These discussions about rules semantics really get us nowhere closer to having a quality, playable set of rules. We aren't fixing the hole here, we're arguing over its dimensions.

If you consider the Power Word Kill spell to be something that snuffs out the life-force of a creature, how do you justify using the hit points of a hawk to represent the life-force of a high level Druid?

In terms of finding workable rules, as DM, I'd simply combine the hit points of the beast form and the Druid to see if they are eligible for power word kill. I don't think this makes the Druid any more difficult to kill than it already is - there just isn't a high level spell that circumvents almost it's entire class. (Alternatively, it makes much more sense IMO to use only the Druid's HP, instead of only the beast form's HP, if you feel my method to be too big a mechanical advantage).

Lore-wise (I don't like "fluff" because that makes it seems unimportant when in reality the game is incredibly flimsy and bland without it), I'd view the beast form as a magical/spiritual self-enhancement, that adds the power of the beast's spiritual form in conjunction with the physical transformation. Druids have a special connection with nature that allows them to become slightly more than just themselves - a physical and spiritual avatar of Nature (or a specific god of nature) embodied by a single creature of its realm.

[visitor]

I agree with Tenmujin.

I see how people are interpreting the PHB's text of Wild Shape of reverting "if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points or die" as meaning wild shaped druids are not immune to death: but if this was the intent, there would be no point to the second bullet point of spill over damage.

That whole bullet point reads as wild shape is meant to function as temporary hit points of a sort. It would be completely useless if a bear form druid is killed by damage, and because he's "dead", he reverts back to full hit point, dead, human druid.

Why is being hammered to death and reverting back alive and well not the same as being blasted by a PWK and then reverting back alive and well?



The problem seems that the text does not address death effects (which I have always felt rather cheesy) well: like PWK, Vorpal blades, nine lives stealer, drowning, poison, etc.

Both approaches can have stupid scenarios. While I do favor druids reverting alive (as that seems the intent), it wouldn't be too fun for players to encounter the monstrous meat grinder trap of instant death, have their druid wild shape to a bunny, toss the bunny in, then gather up the now untrapped loot.

[Fwiffo86]

I don't define Hp as hit points. If any post I made lead you to that conclusion, I apologize. It was nothing more than an convenient way to express a thought. If anything, I would consider it the difference between a live body, and a dead one. Nothing quantifiable. Nothing terribly important themantically. Just a method of thinking mechanically.

[GiantOctopodes]

This is very relevant. The rules explicitly state(pg. 196):
"The loss of hit points has no effect on the creature's capabilities until the creature drops to 0 hit points."

That same section also states:
"Hit points represent a combination of physical and mental durability, the will to live, and luck."

To me, a dead creature inherently lacks "mental durability" and "the will to live." It makes infinitely more sense to reduce a dead creature to 0 hit points rather than leaving them with a floating stat that is meant to depict the creature's life force. That practice alone is simple and helps to clear up some of the issues in this thread.

-----
As much as people want to distinguish between RAW and RAI it isn't entirely doable since language itself is interpreted...Relevant Example:

Power Word Kill states - "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies."

In this thread, everyone seems to agree that the Druid form and the Beast form are considered one creature. Why shouldn't we consider that creature to still "have" the hit points that the Druid form possesses?

A contrary point could say that on pg.67 it says, "your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast...." Then we could have a discussion/argument over whether that change in "game statistics" trumps the fact that this dual form creature technically (at least in one linguistic interpretation) still "has" the hit points of each form.

-----
These discussions about rules semantics really get us nowhere closer to having a quality, playable set of rules. We aren't fixing the hole here, we're arguing over its dimensions.

If you consider the Power Word Kill spell to be something that snuffs out the life-force of a creature, how do you justify using the hit points of a hawk to represent the life-force of a high level Druid?

In terms of finding workable rules, as DM, I'd simply combine the hit points of the beast form and the Druid to see if they are eligible for power word kill. I don't think this makes the Druid any more difficult to kill than it already is - there just isn't a high level spell that circumvents almost it's entire class.

Lore-wise (I don't like "fluff" because that makes it seems unimportant when in reality the game is incredibly flimsy and bland without it), I'd view the beast form as a magical/spiritual self-enhancement, that adds the power of the beast's spiritual form in conjunction with the physical transformation. Druids have a special connection with nature that allows them to become slightly more than just themselves - a physical and spiritual avatar of Nature (or a specific god of nature) embodied by a single creature of its realm.

Indeed, I agree (I think) with your initial point, if I am gathering correctly that you mean to imply that the loss of hit points having an effect on your capabilities is entirely different from being fully capable as long as you have hit points. As has been reiterated numerous times, PWK does not cause HP loss, thus does not interact meaningfully with the rules regarding your capabilities or lack thereof when it comes to hit points.

Your argument about combining the HP of both forms (essentially treating at that point the form's HP as temp HP) doesn't seem particularly defensible when you consider the other condition for reverting is dropping to 0 HP, or the statement "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed", implying those HP are not at all part of your HP pool when in the beast's form. The whole convoluted mechanic regarding HP is imho asinine in the first place, but with the way it's set up, in no way shape or form does the druid technically "have" the HP of his normal form. He only returns to that HP total if he reverts, until then he *only* has the HP total of the beast's form. It's not like it's a huge vulnerability, either- a 20th level druid with poor con and or bad luck may not even have 100 HP normally, so it's entirely possible he'd be vulnerable to it normally, certainly after a few hits. However, your "solution" actually makes a druid far *less* vulnerable to PWK than any other class, and *certainly* makes it harder to kill than it normally would be.

Lore-wise, I personally have always seen it as taking on the aspect of a Beast, becoming that animal almost in whole, being closer to that animal than perhaps they are to their own body, and accepting both the positive and negative aspects of that animal, rather than as a spiritual enhancement. For the kind of enhancement you're talking about, I would say that Enhance Ability is a more apt match for what you're describing.


I agree with Tenmujin.

I see how people are interpreting the PHB's text of Wild Shape of reverting "if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points or die" as meaning wild shaped druids are not immune to death: but if this was the intent, there would be no point to the second bullet point of spill over damage.

That whole bullet point reads as wild shape is meant to function as temporary hit points of a sort. It would be completely useless if a bear form druid is killed by damage, and because he's "dead", he reverts back to full hit point, dead, human druid.

Why is being hammered to death and reverting back alive and well not the same as being blasted by a PWK and then reverting back alive and well?



The problem seems that the text does not address death effects (which I have always felt rather cheesy) well: like PWK, Vorpal blades, nine lives stealer, drowning, poison, etc.

Both approaches can have stupid scenarios. While I do favor druids reverting alive (as that seems the intent), it wouldn't be too fun for players to encounter the monstrous meat grinder trap of instant death, have their druid wild shape to a bunny, toss the bunny in, then gather up the now untrapped loot.

But you miss the entire point- the second bullet point of spill over damage applies wholly and expressly to reverting due to dropping to 0 hp. The intent being in the way you describe (which I agree with) in no way invalidates the second bullet point, it means that there is an allowance for events other than those that fall under the purview of that scenario. If it was meant to function as temporary HP, they could have easily said you gain the beast's HP as temp HP, and revert when your temp HP are exhausted, but they did not, they chose to handle it this way instead, which is mechanically dissimilar. By having the "or die" clause, they are in fact addressing death effects. Otherwise, why include "or die"? If not addressing death effects (things other than 0 HP), the "or die" would not exist. The 0 HP scenario is addressed in depth, they apparently didn't feel dying needs much elaboration: You are dead, after all.

[Talin]

At this point I have only one thing to ask anyone, seeing as you're all still on about the Druid vs PWK.

AD&D 1st Ed. Power word kill, KILLS ANY TARGET with less than the described HP (Osric states 60 or less). So that means if the Fighter, the Paladin, the Wizard , the Thief, the Ranger, the Cleric, or the DRUID have less than 60 HP THEY ARE DEAD.

AD&D 2nd Ed. is no different, if the Fighter, the Paladin, the Wizard , the Thief, the Ranger, the Cleric, or the DRUID have less than the specified amount of HP THEY ARE DEAD.

3.P is the same way, Whether the Druid is Wildshaped or not, if they get PWK and then have 100 hp or less THEY DIE.

so WHY in the name of the Planes, would 5th Ed be any different? The Spell says ONE THING "If the target has less than 100 HP they DIE"

No ifs, ands, or buts THEY DIE.

Fighter, Paladin, Warlock, Rogue, Sorcerer, Bard, Wizard, DRUID, Tiefling, Elf, Orc, Halfling, Human, Dwarf, Bugbear, Pixie, HOMEBREW, IF YOU HAVE LESS THAN 100 HP YOU DIE PERIOD. It doesn't matter who or what you are that 9th level spell has ONE condition, that you have less than 100 hp, and if you do welcome to dead, DEAD, DEADY DEAD DEADERSON and Co. it doesn't matter how much hp you have in any form you can take if your CURRENT HP REGARDLESS OF FORM IS LESS THAN 100............

YOU......ARE..... DEAD

[Dizlag]

This is simply a "specific rule beats a general rule" from page 7 of the PHB. The last sentence in the second paragraph says "Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules."

In general, a druid will "automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die ... When you revert to you normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

Specifically, when you cast Power Word Kill "you utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies.

The creature, a druid in bear form, is dead.

Dizlag

[Talin]

This is simply a "specific rule beats a general rule" from page 7 of the PHB. The last sentence in the second paragraph says "Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules."

In general, a druid will "automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die ... When you revert to you normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

Specifically, when you cast Power Word Kill "you utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies.

The creature, a druid in bear form, is dead.

Dizlag

Well said there Dizlag.

"When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal
form, you return to the number o f hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a
result o f dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you
take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as
the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious.

A perfect expample of Specific vs General ruling in action. By that statement in the book on page 67 of The PHB the Druid REPLACES his HP total and Hit Die with that of the Creature he turns into. therefoer if that Bear has less than 100 HP the DRUID has less than 100hp and Dies by the SPECIFIC ruling of PWK vs. the GENERAL ruling of the Druid, simple as that, and so the rule has been since the 1970's

[Ohnoeszz]

Indeed, I agree (I think) with your initial point, if I am gathering correctly that you mean to imply that the loss of hit points having an effect on your capabilities is entirely different from being fully capable as long as you have hit points. As has been reiterated numerous times, PWK does not cause HP loss, thus does not interact meaningfully with the rules regarding your capabilities or lack thereof when it comes to hit points.

Your argument about combining the HP of both forms (essentially treating at that point the form's HP as temp HP) doesn't seem particularly defensible when you consider the other condition for reverting is dropping to 0 HP, or the statement "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed", implying those HP are not at all part of your HP pool when in the beast's form. The whole convoluted mechanic regarding HP is imho asinine in the first place, but with the way it's set up, in no way shape or form does the druid technically "have" the HP of his normal form. He only returns to that HP total if he reverts, until then he *only* has the HP total of the beast's form. It's not like it's a huge vulnerability, either- a 20th level druid with poor con and or bad luck may not even have 100 HP normally, so it's entirely possible he'd be vulnerable to it normally, certainly after a few hits. However, your "solution" actually makes a druid far *less* vulnerable to PWK than any other class, and *certainly* makes it harder to kill than it normally would be.

Lore-wise, I personally have always seen it as taking on the aspect of a Beast, becoming that animal almost in whole, being closer to that animal than perhaps they are to their own body, and accepting both the positive and negative aspects of that animal, rather than as a spiritual enhancement. For the kind of enhancement you're talking about, I would say that Enhance Ability is a more apt match for what you're describing.


I agree that my solution makes the Druid less vulnerable to PWK. The way I view the transformation lore-wise I am was comfortable with the advantage provided by beast form because I'd think the magic insulates the character. I shouldn't have said that there isn't an advantage, but rather that the advantage fits both with what the Druid does mechanically (act as a tank) and my view of its lore.

To add, I'm a bit dismissive of the advantage because I view PWK as a slim corner case. The game won't be broken either way... but I'm much more concerned with a 9th level spell, in a single action, circumventing all the abilities of a high level tank, than I am about a 9th level spell being a bit worse.

I edited while you were writing that if this seemed like too much of an advantage mechanically(and it does now that I start thinking of possible higher level forms and some of the math involved), it makes more sense to use the Druid's HP rather than the beast's HP. I'd propose that instead.


-----
From another angle, I would differentiate sleep from PWK because sleep is a physical need. The spell could be interpreted as affecting the physical form. I don't know how to interpret PWK except as something that targets the mind or the creature's will to live.

Primarily it seems utterly silly to me that a 20th level Druid who flies up as a bird to scout can be so easily snuffed out by a spell that seems to target a creature's will to live. The Druid maintains its own Int, Wis and Cha through the transformation, I would also ascribe to it any other mental capabilities as well.

-----
The whole discussion on what HP the creature has was merely alluding to the interpretation inherent in actually playing the game. It's not a stance I want to defend, just one I want to point out could be defended linguistically.

I just want to use good rules, not find ways to justify bad ones.

They could have used temporary HP. I don't think that they didn't because of some thought out reasoning. This whole situation seems like editing oversight rather than carefully crafted wording.

-----
As to your interpretation of the lore, I find it difficult to view it as embracing the weaknesses of the animal when the form maintains the druid's intellectual ability scores and reverts to the druid's full HP with no impact on the self when the change ends.

I think it's more cohesive to view it as an enhancement that protects the self while limiting the user's capabilities to the chosen form.

[visitor]

Well maybe I'm really old school, but I've always equated zero Hp = dead; and some HP = alive. (and this zero HP stabilizing stuff is just something thrown in to be nice to low levels).

So reading the PHB that a druid reverts and "returns to the number of hit points you had before" naturally reads to me as he's alive as well. But I can see the other side as well.

So when a druid is drowned or suffocated in your games, is he dead with full hit points?

And as a aside; how do you handle a wraith's life drain?

[Talin]

Well maybe I'm really old school, but I've always equated zero Hp = dead; and some HP = alive. (and this zero HP stabilizing stuff is just something thrown in to be nice to low levels).

So reading the PHB that a druid reverts and "returns to the number of hit points you had before" naturally reads to me as he's alive as well. But I can see the other side as well.

So when a druid is drowned or suffocated in your games, is he dead with full hit points?

And as a aside; how do you handle a wraith's life drain?

The thing is Hit Points do NOT mean something is alive, there are many nonliving things in D&D that have had HP over the years.

[GiantOctopodes]

As to your interpretation of the lore, I find it difficult to view it as embracing the weaknesses of the animal when the form maintains the druid's intellectual ability scores and reverts to the druid's full HP with no impact on the self when the change ends.

I think it's more cohesive to view it as an enhancement that protects the self while limiting the user's capabilities to the chosen form.

Except you take on the creature's physical ability scores, even when those are worse than your own, and you lose special senses such as darkvision, unless the creature also has them, also taking on a potentially more disadvantageous movement rate, not to mention the loss of the use of hands. You certainly must embrace the weaknesses of the creature, from what I see. Certainly those weaknesses go away when you revert, but you were referring to the lore aspect of it, and from that standpoint it draws to mind Druids who spend more time in animal form than human form, who potentially forget about writing or speaking (due to spending so much time in the animal form which lacks that ability), or who revert back with a measure of remorse from the form of a frog or fish, for though they may have hands, higher strength, and be in all ways more physically capable than they were in that form, they miss the freedom of spirit, or whatever it may be, that they have in that form vs their human form. A Druid wild shaped as a frog is certainly more than a frog, but is arguably much less than a Druid when in their human or elven forms, so it certainly is arguably the opposite of an enhancement. Despite the apparent restrictions and or weakness of the form, some Druids prefer it.

If you view it as an enhancement because the Druid pops out, unharmed at the end of it, I would point out that you also have a potentially much lower AC, and carry over damage certainly carries over as well, so in many ways they are potentially more vulnerable to harm than if they are in their physical form. It's not necessarily and in all ways an enhancement, which is where I come from with the whole "embrace the weakness" thing. As you indicate, PWK is a fringe case, but when it comes to those fringe cases, I'll definitely lean more towards a 9th level spell working than not working when there is any doubt (and in my eyes there is no doubt, I do think of it as "good rules" for it to work in that case), especially when separate protections are specifically made for it. As you indicated, it's a fringe case and not likely to affect the overall power of a class either way, but I don't see it as negating much of the entire feature of a class, rather, I think focusing on non-HP damaging ways to kill someone with large or renewable HP pools is just good tactics and more interesting than beating on something until it does.

I also don't think of it as targeting a creature's will to live, necessarily, any more than targeting their physical fortitude. I think of it as targeting their essence, true, unravelling their very being or soul. Yet in that moment, as the Druid's essence is a fusion of that which is him and that which is the animal, and that spell targets the aspect of him that is the animal (the HP pool), I certainly think it would end his life. It's much the same as dying while your mind is swapped with another creature- sure, it was that creature which died, but it died with your mind inside it, so you are now dead as well.

[Ohnoeszz]

^Fair enough and well explained. To each their own I suppose.

[visitor]

The thing is Hit Points do NOT mean something is alive, there are many nonliving things in D&D that have had HP over the years.

Nonliving object's hit points are obviously not meant to reflect that they are "alive".

But a door with 1 hit point remaining is still capable of functioning as a door...one would naturally assume repairing a broken zero hit point door to positive hit points would restore its functionality

[GiantOctopodes]

Nonliving object's hit points are obviously not meant to reflect that they are "alive".

But a door with 1 hit point remaining is still capable of functioning as a door...one would naturally assume repairing a broken zero hit point door to positive hit points would restore its functionality

Actually, from that standpoint "A creature that has died can’t regain hit points until magic such as the revivify spell has restored it to life", per page 197, so if you want to try to stretch the creature / object HP relationship, the likely end result is that a door could not be repaired at all magically once it hit 0 HP. Also, I think he was referring more to Undead, who are specifically *not* alive, but I believe you are referring more to "able to function" when you say "alive". However, if you think of it that way, even ignoring that you simply *can't* cure wounds someone back from the dead, if you are looking at it from the standpoint of "well, he hasn't lost all his HP, so he's not dead", and thus rule that when someone drowns or whatever else it sets them to 0 HP (I'm kinda assuming now, you didn't clarify), wouldn't the more logical end result be this:

Druid dies, druid's HP is set to 0, druid reverts, druid would return to the number of HP he had before he transformed, but based on the healing rules, cannot, and thus remains at 0 HP?

[visitor]

Actually, from that standpoint "A creature that has died can’t regain hit points until magic such as the revivify spell has restored it to life", per page 197, so if you want to try to stretch the creature / object HP relationship, the likely end result is that a door could not be repaired at all magically once it hit 0 HP. Also, I think he was referring more to Undead, who are specifically *not* alive, but I believe you are referring more to "able to function" when you say "alive". However, if you think of it that way, even ignoring that you simply *can't* cure wounds someone back from the dead, if you are looking at it from the standpoint of "well, he hasn't lost all his HP, so he's not dead", and thus rule that when someone drowns or whatever else it sets them to 0 HP (I'm kinda assuming now, you didn't clarify), wouldn't the more logical end result be this:

Druid dies, druid's HP is set to 0, druid reverts, druid would return to the number of HP he had before he transformed, but based on the healing rules, cannot, and thus remains at 0 HP?

Wow this topic has been totally beaten to a pulp.

And yes, after anything that makes a player dead I would usually assume that lump of meat has zero hit points. As for the quoted rule, well, I guess this would be one of those specific rules vs general rules (after reverting the druid regains his hit points). I agree, PHB doesn't specifically say the reverting druid is brought back to life, but otherwise giving a corpse hit points seems silly from my point of view (hit points reflecting functionality/life).

But, I do think both views have merit.

[Laurefindel]

so WHY in the name of the Planes, would 5th Ed be any different? The Spell says ONE THING "If the target has less than 100 HP they DIE"

I think the crux of the issue is when the druid has over 100 hp (in its original form) but less than 100 in its wild shape form.

Hence the 20th level druid with 200 hp, who normally wouldn't worry about PWK, is instantaneously killed by PWK if caught in wild shape because few if no form allows more than 100 hp.

[visitor]

I think the crux of the issue is when the druid has over 100 hp (in its original form) but less than 100 in its wild shape form.

Hence the 20th level druid with 200 hp, who normally wouldn't worry about PWK, is instantaneously killed by PWK if caught in wild shape because few if no form allows more than 100 hp.

Yes.

So, which is more egregious:
The legendary 20th level druid, slayer of all evil, being killed by Farmer Brown because he was fooling around as a bunny?
or
The scrawny weenie 2nd level druid cheesing out of being killed by PWK with a bear form buffer?

[Pex]

Yes.

So, which is more egregious:
The legendary 20th level druid, slayer of all evil, being killed by Farmer Brown because he was fooling around as a bunny?
or
The scrawny weenie 2nd level druid cheesing out of being killed by PWK with a bear form buffer?

Example doesn't work. Farmer Brown wouldn't be casting Power Word Kill. He can slay the bunny all he wants with his pitchfork. He'd just be doing damage which wild shape clearly states the druid would revert to his normal form in full health minus any excess lost as a bunny. The druid would be annoyed. The farmer would be surprised.

Why a spellcaster would waste such a powerful spell on a 2nd level druid is perplexing. You can grant the spellcaster wouldn't necessarily know the druid is only 2nd level, but he could figure that out after round 1 of the combat, round 2 tops.

[SharkForce]

i'm having a hard time feeling too sorry for the druid's infinite HP capstone having an actual drawback, personally. a drawback which essentially only comes into play when someone successfully identifies them as a worthwhile target for a level 9 spell which they may or may not have prepared, and then actually uses said spell on the druid, expending resources that aren't coming back short of a long rest, no less.

[visitor]

Example doesn't work. Farmer Brown wouldn't be casting Power Word Kill. He can slay the bunny all he wants with his pitchfork. He'd just be doing damage which wild shape clearly states the druid would revert to his normal form in full health minus any excess lost as a bunny. The druid would be annoyed. The farmer would be surprised.

Why a spellcaster would waste such a powerful spell on a 2nd level druid is perplexing. You can grant the spellcaster wouldn't necessarily know the druid is only 2nd level, but he could figure that out after round 1 of the combat, round 2 tops.

Sorry, was only semi-serious, didn't mean anyone to take me so literally.

What was alluded to in a previous post was the situation where a high level druid is caught in a low level form, and made more vulnerable thereby. Say the bunny ate rabbit poison laid out by the farmer. Bunny dies; should the high level druid be dead?

On the other hand, easier to be upset with the scenario that a low level druid may be able to escape what should be certain death.

Really, nothing that a little common sense and communication couldn't work out

[BurgerBeast]

I see myself as unbiased in this, though I am primarily a DM and not a player, and my initial thoughts were "the druid is dead." But, upon examination of the rules, I think that, RAW, the PW:K results in the druid reverting to base form and staying alive. Here's my line of thought:

1. From the PW:K description (PHB 267) "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies."

To me this means the character is dead, and this is to my mind a general rule governing the specific effect of "it dies."

On the issue of whether PW:K causes death but no hit point loss, this strikes me as totally wrong and despite one poster's attempts to put forward reasons, none of those reasons satisfy me. I agree that any spell or effect that causes instant death causes the character to die, in the first place, and a direct consequence of this is that your hit points are set to zero. I can't offer justification for this except that I believe there are precedents from similar effects, albeit different effects or different versions of the game.

(The consequences offered such as PW:K therefore can't affect anyone with hit points don't strike me as valid, because "dies" means the character is dead and as a direct consequence has zero hit points; or the notion that a character who is dead can be healed and therefore become alive is refuted pretty simply: you can't heal a dead person [except for specific exceptions], and this applies regardless of any interpretation of the correlation between hit points and the state of being alive.)

2. Understanding that the druid has died while wild-shaped, I now look to the rules governing wild shape (PHB 66) "You automatically revert if you... die."

Okay, so the druid reverts to his/her base form because the druid died while in wild shape.

3. Understanding that the druid reverts, I look to the rules governing reversion (PHB 67) "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

Okay, so the druid is now in base form [I]and has the number of hit points he/she had before he/she transformed because he/she reverted. In my view, this is a specific rule to override the general rule about what "dies" means. As I said previously, I think that having positive hit points implies that a character is alive.

Conclusion:

These are the reasons that I think, RAW, the druid reverts to base form and is alive with the same hit points he had when he wild-shaped.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is my preference, nor do I necessarily think this was the design intent. Regardless, I think this is the RAW consequence of the situation presented, and frankly I don't see much room for other interpretations.

[Talin]

I think the crux of the issue is when the druid has over 100 hp (in its original form) but less than 100 in its wild shape form.

Hence the 20th level druid with 200 hp, who normally wouldn't worry about PWK, is instantaneously killed by PWK if caught in wild shape because few if no form allows more than 100 hp.

Okay first and foremost, the Druid CURRENTLY has less than 100 HP while Wildshaped in this scenerio making it a valid target for PWK.

Page 7 has a paragraph dedicated to Specific rule vs General Rule, The Druids WildShape is a General Rule and shares much of its function to that of Polymorph. Power Word Kill creates a Specific rule that states if the target has 100 hp or Less that it DIES no question asked, at this point it doesn't matter what the target is or what it can do, the fact is PWK KILLS it DEAD. PWK creates a VERY SPECIFIC scenerio where it IGNORES all other general rules and KILLS its target. the only way around PWK is to be immune to death effects, or to have more than 100 Current HP.

Now onto the Druid and its Wildshape, when the Druid wildshapes it assumes the HP and Hit die of what it transforms into meaning that THAT CREATURES HP IS NOW THE DRUIDS HP. The Druids normal HP no longer has any relevance to his Wildshape with the exception of taking damage and reverting back to his base form in which the damage carries over. Other than that the Druid, who lets say in this scenerio has 117 HP, transforms into a Wolf or Falcon, the Druid now has the HP of a Wolf or Falcon and NO LONGER HAS 117 HP, making him a Valid target for PWK)

Now as far as Reversion goes, you revert when you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hp or DIE. Now then that creates an interesting spot to interpret rules, seeing as a Druid can't maintain its Wildshape while unconscious, it clearly wouldn't be able to now being dead either. This creates three scnerios.

Unconscious: The Druid reverts back to its base form and remains unconscious due to Status effects being carried over from Shapeshift.

Drop to 0 Hp: The Druid Reverts and continues to take any left over damage from before if applicable.

Dies: The Druid reverts back to its base form due to being unconscious on account of being Dead.

Seeing as the Druid reverts for being knocked out the conclusion we draw is that the Druid HAS to be conscious to be Wildshaped which he clearly can not be if he is Dead..


That all being said, the same can be said for Polymorphed individuals when put into the same scenerio, if a Wizard Polymorphs the tartget into a Sheep and then PWKs the Sheep, the target is dead and reverts back to its base form and remains Dead.

[GiantOctopodes]

I see myself as unbiased in this, though I am primarily a DM and not a player, and my initial thoughts were "the druid is dead." But, upon examination of the rules, I think that, RAW, the PW:K results in the druid reverting to base form and staying alive. Here's my line of thought:

1. From the PW:K description (PHB 267) "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies."

To me this means the character is dead, and this is to my mind a general rule governing the specific effect of "it dies."

On the issue of whether PW:K causes death but no hit point loss, this strikes me as totally wrong and despite one poster's attempts to put forward reasons, none of those reasons satisfy me. I agree that any spell or effect that causes instant death causes the character to die, in the first place, and a direct consequence of this is that your hit points are set to zero. I can't offer justification for this except that I believe there are precedents from similar effects, albeit different effects or different versions of the game.

(The consequences offered such as PW:K therefore can't affect anyone with hit points don't strike me as valid, because "dies" means the character is dead and as a direct consequence has zero hit points; or the notion that a character who is dead can be healed and therefore become alive is refuted pretty simply: you can't heal a dead person [except for specific exceptions], and this applies regardless of any interpretation of the correlation between hit points and the state of being alive.)

2. Understanding that the druid has died while wild-shaped, I now look to the rules governing wild shape (PHB 66) "You automatically revert if you... die."

Okay, so the druid reverts to his/her base form because the druid died while in wild shape.

3. Understanding that the druid reverts, I look to the rules governing reversion (PHB 67) "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

Okay, so the druid is now in base form [I]and has the number of hit points he/she had before he/she transformed because he/she reverted. In my view, this is a specific rule to override the general rule about what "dies" means. As I said previously, I think that having positive hit points implies that a character is alive.

Conclusion:

These are the reasons that I think, RAW, the druid reverts to base form and is alive with the same hit points he had when he wild-shaped.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is my preference, nor do I necessarily think this was the design intent. Regardless, I think this is the RAW consequence of the situation presented, and frankly I don't see much room for other interpretations.

The exact same train of events and logic would apply to drowning, suffocation, and all other death effects, because, as you indicate, they would put the druid at 0 hp, when he dies, and when he reverts he would be restored to positive HP and thus life from your logic. As such, being wildshaped would make a Druid immune to *death*.

I will also state that your "not much room for interpretation" standpoint relies on the creation of several house rules, most notably that being dead is equivalent to being at 0 HP, and that having a positive HP total means you're alive. I will further point out that the statement that when dead you cannot regain hit points until restored to life is *just* as specific as the statement that when you revert you return to the number of hitpoints held by your previous form. One is not more specific than the other. However, the most crucial house rule in there is also the most general one- you house rule that when a dead druid reverts form, he returns to life. The rules do not in any way shape or form state that occurs. Just be aware that is 100% a house rule. You may feel that is an entirely natural house rule that everyone should have. I disagree 100%. It may not state that when he reverts form he stays dead, but nor does it state that a paralyzed druid that reverts form remains paralyzed. For existing conditions to remain in effect is the natural state of things (inertia, if you want to think of it that way). You only need to call out specifics if it is different from normal, the normal course of things being that things which are dead stay dead until restored to life through magic such as revivify, which is not what is happening here.

[Talin]

The exact same train of events and logic would apply to drowning, suffocation, and all other death effects, because, as you indicate, they would put the druid at 0 hp, when he dies, and when he reverts he would be restored to positive HP and thus life from your logic. As such, being wildshaped would make a Druid immune to *death*.

I will also state that your "not much room for interpretation" standpoint relies on the creation of several house rules, most notably that being dead is equivalent to being at 0 HP, and that having a positive HP total means you're alive. I will further point out that the statement that when dead you cannot regain hit points until restored to life is *just* as specific as the statement that when you revert you return to the number of hitpoints held by your previous form. One is not more specific than the other. However, the most crucial house rule in there is also the most general one- you house rule that when a dead druid reverts form, he returns to life. The rules do not in any way shape or form state that occurs. Just be aware that is 100% a house rule. You may feel that is an entirely natural house rule that everyone should have. I disagree 100%. It may not state that when he reverts form he stays dead, but nor does it state that a paralyzed druid that reverts form remains paralyzed. For existing conditions to remain in effect is the natural state of things (inertia, if you want to think of it that way). You only need to call out specifics if it is different from normal, the normal course of things being that things which are dead stay dead until restored to life through magic such as revivify, which is not what is happening here.

It is also worth mentioning that the Spell REVIVIFY returns the target back to life with 1 hp implying in the book that Death reduces your HP to 0 automatically. While Death itself is never mentioned as a Status it is still safe to assume that your HP score becomes 0 upon death anyway.

that being said the Druid in Question would resolve as so, the Wildshaped Druid is targeted by PWK, PWK kills the Druid, the Druid reverts back to his base on account of already being dead. The Druid now dead has an HP total of 0 (considering Revivify restores you to life with 1 hp instead of what you had when you died, it is implied that Death reduces your HP to at least 0 after you die if it wasn't negative to begin with.)

[Talin]

i'm having a hard time feeling too sorry for the druid's infinite HP capstone having an actual drawback, personally. a drawback which essentially only comes into play when someone successfully identifies them as a worthwhile target for a level 9 spell which they may or may not have prepared, and then actually uses said spell on the druid, expending resources that aren't coming back short of a long rest, no less.

Amen brother.

[Eslin]

Amen brother.

Once again, keep in mind that means that CWB+PW:K kills pretty much everything.

[Talin]

Once again, keep in mind that means that CWB+PW:K kills pretty much everything.

You are right , it would but hey Noone can cast PWK till at least level 17 so why is it a big deal?

[BurgerBeast]

The exact same train of events and logic would apply to drowning, suffocation, and all other death effects, because, as you indicate, they would put the druid at 0 hp, when he dies, and when he reverts he would be restored to positive HP and thus life from your logic. As such, being wildshaped would make a Druid immune to *death*.

I will also state that your "not much room for interpretation" standpoint relies on the creation of several house rules, most notably that being dead is equivalent to being at 0 HP, and that having a positive HP total means you're alive. I will further point out that the statement that when dead you cannot regain hit points until restored to life is *just* as specific as the statement that when you revert you return to the number of hitpoints held by your previous form. One is not more specific than the other. However, the most crucial house rule in there is also the most general one- you house rule that when a dead druid reverts form, he returns to life. The rules do not in any way shape or form state that occurs. Just be aware that is 100% a house rule. You may feel that is an entirely natural house rule that everyone should have. I disagree 100%. It may not state that when he reverts form he stays dead, but nor does it state that a paralyzed druid that reverts form remains paralyzed. For existing conditions to remain in effect is the natural state of things (inertia, if you want to think of it that way). You only need to call out specifics if it is different from normal, the normal course of things being that things which are dead stay dead until restored to life through magic such as revivify, which is not what is happening here.


I didn’t see the rules about drowning or all other death effects, but regarding suffocation (PHB 183) “it drops to zero hit points and is dying.” (Not dead.) From there I look to reversion and see that dropping to zero causes reversion, and see that reversion returns the character to the hit points he/she had before wild shaping. Presumably, this character is still without oxygen (since they probably did all they could to stop suffocating) and has Con modifier +1 minutes until suffocating in base form.

[edit: I originally wrote "submerged" instead of "without oxygen"]

“most notably that being dead is equivalent to being at 0 HP” – I never said this. I said that being dead has the consequence of setting HP to zero. This doesn’t make them equivalent. It means one causes the other.

“that having a positive HP total means you're alive” – I have never seen a counter-example, except those offered here about PW:K taking a character with (for example) 76 hp and making him dead with 76 hp. I don’t think this is reasonable, and there is some evidence to support me. For example some spells revive and set hp to a certain amount. Why wouldn’t these spells set a character who is dead with 76 hp to alive with 76 hp, instead of 1 hp as with revivify? Also (granted this example is from 4e) why would healing someone with -13 hp for 24 points of healing result in alive with 24 hp instead of alive with 11 hp? This seems to imply that dead is connected to zero hp.

“I will further point out that the statement that when dead you cannot regain hit points until restored to life is *just* as specific as the statement that when you revert you return to the number of hitpoints held by your previous form.” – No, it isn’t. The first statement applies to all instances of death. The second applies specifically to deaths while wild-shaped, which are a subset of all deaths, therefore more specific.

“you house rule that when a dead druid reverts form, he returns to life.” – Not exactly, though I’ll grant you the result is the same. I “houserule” that when a character has hit points, he is alive. The rules say that when a druid reverts, he has the same hit points he had when he wild-shaped.

“It may not state that when he reverts form he stays dead, but nor does it state that a paralyzed druid that reverts form remains paralyzed.” This is a very good point, and I agree on the face of it. The problems is that there are no paralyzation points which relate to the condition and are restored by reversion. If paralyzation was caused by having your "movement points" reduced to zero, and if reversion specifically caused "movement points" to return to the same as they were at the time of wild-shaping, we'd be having the same debate about paralyzation.

[BurgerBeast]

It is also worth mentioning that the Spell REVIVIFY returns the target back to life with 1 hp implying in the book that Death reduces your HP to 0 automatically. While Death itself is never mentioned as a Status it is still safe to assume that your HP score becomes 0 upon death anyway.

that being said the Druid in Question would resolve as so, the Wildshaped Druid is targeted by PWK, PWK kills the Druid, the Druid reverts back to his base on account of already being dead. The Druid now dead has an HP total of 0 (considering Revivify restores you to life with 1 hp instead of what you had when you died, it is implied that Death reduces your HP to at least 0 after you die if it wasn't negative to begin with.)

You seem to have left out a little tidbit that is directly from the PHB:

"the Druid reverts back to his base on account of already being dead." Reversion resets the druid to the same hp he had prior to wild-shaping. "The Druid now dead has an HP total of 0" apparently has his hp back. Enter dilemma.

[Talin]

You seem to have left out a little tidbit that is directly from the PHB:

"the Druid reverts back to his base on account of already being dead." Reversion resets the druid to the same hp he had prior to wild-shaping. "The Druid now dead has an HP total of 0" apparently has his hp back. Enter dilemma.

If by dilemma you mean what to do with a dead Druid then you'd be right. At this point I don't care what you say or what you come up with I have all this time been trying to say that if a Druid wildshaped or not gets targeted by PWK and has less than 100 HP its dead. I've stated multiple times now that PWK creates a Specific rules that overwrites any of the text on the Druids page. If PWK targets something with less than 100 HP they are dead, its been that way since 1st edition.

Now as far as using CWB to summon fey to Polymorph and then follow up with PWK, YES that is a thing I have personally seen it happen more times than can be counted but guess what PWK is an instant death spell and is level 9 for a reason, so all you happy little Druids need to climb down off the soap box and just deal with the fact that PWK KILLS YOU!

[GiantOctopodes]

Once again, keep in mind that means that CWB+PW:K kills pretty much everything.

Everything not immune to shapechange, or in the dark, or more than 120 feet away, or invisible, or (depending on how you interpret the rules of polymorph) immune to death effects. In exchange for using a 9th and 8th level spell, by two different high level casters, against a single creature. Assuming initiative does not allow an ally of the creature in question the chance to 'slay' it by dropping it to 0 HP, or it the chance to commit 'suicide' (thus ending the polymorph) before PWK is cast. I see no issue here.

[Talin]

Everything not immune to shapechange, or in the dark, or more than 120 feet away, or invisible, or (depending on how you interpret the rules of polymorph) immune to death effects. In exchange for using a 9th and 8th level spell, by two different high level casters, against a single creature. Assuming initiative does not allow an ally of the creature in question the chance to 'slay' it by dropping it to 0 HP, or it the chance to commit 'suicide' (thus ending the polymorph) before PWK is cast. I see no issue here.

nor do I, personally I say if you have those spell slots and you feel you need to Kill someone thats how I would do it. And the same can be said for Druids Wildshape, I put the Poly-PWK on the same boat. As far as I'm concerned its been that way since 1st edition and I don't expect it to change anytime soon. Especially when you consider that an Druid basically has infinite HP at level 20 by abusing Wildshape.

[BurgerBeast]

On the opposite page, under Hit Points, it says that you are fully capable of acting so long as you have more than 0 HP.

I haven't found this myself. If it does say this, this would be good evidence that having hit points implies you are capable of acting and therefore not dead.

[BurgerBeast]

If by dilemma you mean what to do with a dead Druid then you'd be right. At this point I don't care what you say or what you come up with I have all this time been trying to say that if a Druid wildshaped or not gets targeted by PWK and has less than 100 HP its dead. I've stated multiple times now that PWK creates a Specific rules that overwrites any of the text on the Druids page. If PWK targets something with less than 100 HP they are dead, its been that way since 1st edition.

Now as far as using CWB to summon fey to Polymorph and then follow up with PWK, YES that is a thing I have personally seen it happen more times than can be counted but guess what PWK is an instant death spell and is level 9 for a reason, so all you happy little Druids need to climb down off the soap box and just deal with the fact that PWK KILLS YOU!

Well, if it says in the rules that the spell description overwrites the druid text, I concede that you are right. As I previously alluded, I actually want you to be right, but my current interpretation is that RAW, you're not. I'm cheering for you, here. I want to be convinced.

"It's been that way [sic] since first edition" isn't an argument. It does perhaps provide insight into design intent, and the way we both think the RAW should be. My problem is that RAW appear to be different than we both think they should be, and possibly different than they were intended to be.

[Talin]

I haven't found this myself. If it does say this, this would be good evidence that having hit points implies you are capable of acting and therefore not dead.

I have seen nothing of the sort and I've been scouring the Core Books since Noon

[Talin]

Well, if it says in the rules that the spell description overwrites the druid text, I concede that you are right. As I previously alluded, I actually want you to be right, but my current interpretation is that RAW, you're not. I'm cheering for you, here. I want to be convinced.

"It's been that way [sic] since first edition" isn't an argument. It does perhaps provide insight into design intent, and the way we both think the RAW should be. My problem is that RAW appear to be different than we both think they should be, and possibly different than they were intended to be.

Specific Beats General Pg. 7 of the PHB

This book contains rules, especially in parts 2 and 3, that govern h ow the game plays. That said, many racial traits, class features, spells, magic items, monster abilities, and other game elements break the general rules in some way, creating an exception to how the rest of the game works. Remember this: If a specific rule contradicts a general rule, the specific rule wins. Exceptions to the rules are often minor. For instance, many adventurers don’t have proficiency with longbows, but every wood elf does because of a racial trait. That trait creates a minor exception in the game. Other examples of rule-breaking are more conspicuous. For instance, an adventurer can’t normally pass through walls, but some spells make that possible. Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules.

Power Word Kill

You utter a word of power that can compel one creature you can see within range to die instantly. If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies. Otherwise, the spell has no effect.


Power Word Kill creates a very Specific rule, and gives only one Condition "100 hit points or fewer". By the word of Specific Vs General, PWK creates an exception to anything else in the game at this point. When you target a Creature with 100 or fewer health it dies, there's no more to read into the spell kills its target. Again "Magic accounts for most of the major exceptions to the rules." and this is one of the exceptions it talks about. Power Word Kill ignores all other rules in the game at this point and only reads one thing "Current HP of the Target" It doesn't matter what it is, it dies.

The ONLY way to avoid Death is by having more than 100 current HP, or be Immune to Death effects.

[BurgerBeast]

I have seen nothing of the sort and I've been scouring the Core Books since Noon

Yeah. Bizarre.

I wish they added "unless you are dead" to "When you revert to you normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

What's even weirder is that if unconsciousness triggers the reversion, it seems to me that RAW the druid reverts and remains unconscious. Everything points to the notion that the intention is for PW:K to kill the druid, but I still think RAW there's a mistake.

[BurgerBeast]

Power Word Kill creates a very Specific rule, and gives only one Condition "100 hit points or fewer". By the word of Specific Vs General, PWK creates an exception to anything else in the game at this point.

I don't agree. It seems to me I could say that it applies to everything in the game. But then there's the druid wild shape rule, and it creates an exception whenever a druid specifically dies in wild shape… and I'm not sure either of us would have a better case.


The ONLY way to avoid Death is by having more than 100 current HP, or be Immune to Death effects.

What about by having an ability that is triggered by death? I suppose I'd have to ask first if you agree that reversion is triggered by death, and second are there other precedents out there, such as magic jar or something? Is this a fair comparison or would such a spell be a specific rule and therefore different than wild shape (which I think you consider to be general)?

Anyway I'm off to bed for now but thanks for the engaging discussion.

[Talin]

I don't agree. It seems to me I could say that it applies to everything in the game. But then there's the druid wild shape rule, and it creates an exception whenever a druid specifically dies in wild shape… and I'm not sure either of us would have a better case.



What about by having an ability that is triggered by death? I suppose I'd have to ask first if you agree that reversion is triggered by death, and second are there other precedents out there, such as magic jar or something? Is this a fair comparison or would such a spell be a specific rule and therefore different than wild shape (which I think you insider to be general)?

Anyway I'm off to bed for now but thanks for the engaging discussion.

I am going to stand by what I said earlier

"Now as far as Reversion goes, you revert when you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hp or DIE. Now then that creates an interesting spot to interpret rules, seeing as a Druid can't maintain its Wildshape while unconscious, it clearly wouldn't be able to now being dead either. This creates three scnerios.

Unconscious: The Druid reverts back to its base form and remains unconscious due to Status effects being carried over from Shapeshift.

Drop to 0 Hp: The Druid Reverts and continues to take any left over damage from before if applicable.

Dies: The Druid reverts back to its base form due to being unconscious on account of being Dead.

Seeing as the Druid reverts for being knocked out the conclusion we draw is that the Druid HAS to be conscious to be Wildshaped which he clearly can not be if he is Dead..


That all being said, the same can be said for Polymorphed individuals when put into the same scenerio, if a Wizard Polymorphs the tartget into a Sheep and then PWKs the Sheep, the target is dead and reverts back to its base form and remains Dead."

I will not argue that if the Wildshape reverts from damage that the Druid will still be alive, but if the Druid is KILLED while in its Wildshape by an effect that doesn't do damage, that he is dead and can no longer hold his Wildshape because he is dead.

When a creature is targeted by PWK if they have less than 100 HP they die irrevocably, and as far as I can tell the ONLY time a question pops up is whether or not reversion from Wildshape or Polymorph would bring the target back alive, to which I say NO if they were targeted by PWK and had less than 100 HP they are dead no way around it. That is how PWK works, that is how it has ALWAYS worked that is the way it will CONTINUE to work unless WotC says otherwise. PWK is an instant kill spell that kills whatever it is pointed at so long as the target has 100 hp or less.

NOW until WotC specifically says otherwise, THAT is what I say PWK does vs. Wildshape/Polymorph. And until WotC SPECIFICALLY says otherwise I am going to stick by it.

PWK Kills the Druid, it kills the Victim of Polymorph I REST MY CASE!!!!

[visitor]

Burgerbeast, I'm with you. My posts haven't been as succinct or clear, but my reasoning is about the same.

I don't think you can make a general vs specific rule argument here, because both cases are specific: one a spell description, one a class feature.

And while I agree a 9th level spell should be powerful, there are many terrible spells that are head scratchingly high level. Also, look at the 4th level spell [B]Death Ward[B]: It can be cast by 7th level clerics and the text is very specific: "if...the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage, that effect is instead negated against the target,...". Now while not everyone will be running around with Death Ward, here the mighty PWK is countered by simple 4th level spell. My point being, just because PWK is a 9th level spell doesn't mean it should take precedent over other specific rules.

[Rowan Wolf]

Burgerbeast, I'm with you. My posts haven't been as succinct or clear, but my reasoning is about the same.

I don't think you can make a general vs specific rule argument here, because both cases are specific: one a spell description, one a class feature.

And while I agree a 9th level spell should be powerful, there are many terrible spells that are head scratchingly high level. Also, look at the 4th level spell [B]Death Ward[B]: It can be cast by 7th level clerics and the text is very specific: "if...the target is subjected to an effect that would kill it instantaneously without dealing damage, that effect is instead negated against the target,...". Now while not everyone will be running around with Death Ward, here the mighty PWK is countered by simple 4th level spell. My point being, just because PWK is a 9th level spell doesn't mean it should take precedent over other specific rules.

If I recall correctly their were additional ways to block that effect in previous editions (mostly by virtue of being immune to compulsions/mind affecting effects)

Not to derail the discussion any, but the fact that the Level of the Spell gets brought up kind of show a caster bias in both ruling and general perception of functionality.

[Yoroichi]

Well, i have thoroughly followed this thread, and although i am 100% convinced the Druid should stay dead, i can not rule so just by raw.

Also i believe it is useful to define death. Death makes you unconscious and brings you to 0 hp period. If death is a condition, it carries over to the druid form making it dead as well.

However i probably have missed the part in the PHB that says that conditions carry over to your normal form.

Also the other instant death conditions fail, if you rule that they kill the druid as well. For instance massive damage does not kill the druid, exhaustion though probably does, because conditions carry over right?

I think the most logical explanation is that PWK and specific other death effects cause death to the soul. It targets the body, but kills the soul, if you need a logical aid to accept the deadness.

I agree that PWK creates a specific rule and that it indeed kills the druid in its original form as it reverts and remains dead but i think every death condition should be closely inspected and ruled accordingly.

The other thought i have is that since death makes you unconscious, it should not be listed separately in the reversion reasons. It is my understanding that it is listed separately because they intended to also make the druid form dead ( probably for looting reasons as mentioned before) but forgot to add something like this:

"When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed" except if your beast form instadied in which case you remain dead.

or something of the sort.

[Cazero]

My 2 cents :
Lots of people here are assuming that being dead put you at 0 HP. It is wrong. Being dead put you at minus infinity HP, wich is why healing doesn't work anymore. You can heal for finite amount all the time you want, your dead buddy is still dead at minus infinity HP.
Therefore, death effects deal infinity damage that bypass classic damage immunity. The infinity of damage dealt to the druid carries over his wildshaped form and deals infinity damage to his druid form, killing him again instantly.
Only specific resurrection effect can cure that, because they don't add HP. They replace the current value with 1 or max HP or chatever the resurrection effects says.

[Fwiffo86]

I see myself as unbiased in this, though I am primarily a DM and not a player, and my initial thoughts were "the druid is dead." But, upon examination of the rules, I think that, RAW, the PW:K results in the druid reverting to base form and staying alive. Here's my line of thought:

1. From the PW:K description (PHB 267) "If the creature you choose has 100 hit points or fewer, it dies."

To me this means the character is dead, and this is to my mind a general rule governing the specific effect of "it dies."

On the issue of whether PW:K causes death but no hit point loss, this strikes me as totally wrong and despite one poster's attempts to put forward reasons, none of those reasons satisfy me. I agree that any spell or effect that causes instant death causes the character to die, in the first place, and a direct consequence of this is that your hit points are set to zero. I can't offer justification for this except that I believe there are precedents from similar effects, albeit different effects or different versions of the game.

(The consequences offered such as PW:K therefore can't affect anyone with hit points don't strike me as valid, because "dies" means the character is dead and as a direct consequence has zero hit points; or the notion that a character who is dead can be healed and therefore become alive is refuted pretty simply: you can't heal a dead person [except for specific exceptions], and this applies regardless of any interpretation of the correlation between hit points and the state of being alive.)


Scenario - If you have a giant dead body, and your players hit it once? does it suddenly disintegrate because it has no hit points? Is that your interpretation? Or do they have to hit it several times, inflicting damage with each hit, in order to separate the pieces? I understand what you are getting at. My point is that dead bodies have hit points, just like doors, and walls, and every other inanimate object that players may want to smash.

I bring this up simply to point out that the druid NEVER hits zero hit points from PWK. He becomes a corpse with HP equal to his total upon reversion, a mechanic used simply to determine how much damage the "inanimate dead body" has against repeated damage.



2. Understanding that the druid has died while wild-shaped, I now look to the rules governing wild shape (PHB 66) "You automatically revert if you... die."

Okay, so the druid reverts to his/her base form because the druid died while in wild shape.

3. Understanding that the druid reverts, I look to the rules governing reversion (PHB 67) "When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed."

Okay, so the druid is now in base form [I]and has the number of hit points he/she had before he/she transformed because he/she reverted. In my view, this is a specific rule to override the general rule about what "dies" means. As I said previously, I think that having positive hit points implies that a character is alive.

Conclusion:

These are the reasons that I think, RAW, the druid reverts to base form and is alive with the same hit points he had when he wild-shaped.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is my preference, nor do I necessarily think this was the design intent. Regardless, I think this is the RAW consequence of the situation presented, and frankly I don't see much room for other interpretations.

Other interpretation listed above. To me, there is no other explanation that makes sense. If something were to essentially cure death, it would say so. That is an essential feature. There are what? 5 spells that cure death now? 6 if you count wish as well? I would certainly indicate a level 2 class feature that renders the class immune to death, death effects (short of massive damage) and would have noticed if by level 20 you have a completely unkillable character class.

[deusflac]

Conclusion:

These are the reasons that I think, RAW, the druid reverts to base form and is alive with the same hit points he had when he wild-shaped.

For the record, I don't necessarily think this is my preference, nor do I necessarily think this was the design intent. Regardless, I think this is the RAW consequence of the situation presented, and frankly I don't see much room for other interpretations.

based on that conclusion how do you adjudicate vorpal then? the druid is in wild shape with full health and takes a nat 20 vorpal hit, and for the sake of argument damage is rolled but it is min damage i.e. not enough to one shot under other circumstances.

so the druid reverts. does it still have a head? sure it reverts back with its prior HP, but headlessness is a whole different matter.

[Fwiffo86]

Also i believe it is useful to define death. Death makes you unconscious and brings you to 0 hp period. If death is a condition, it carries over to the druid form making it dead as well.


Death definition: (pulled from areas such as the healing section in the PHB)

[[Edited for rewording]]

You are unconscious and can take no actions. (For modifiers, see unconscious)
A dead character cannot regain hit points
A dead character remains dead until a restore life effect targets the character.

*note*
This is not clearly defined, more of an assembly definition. I am proposing this simply because I can see no reason the designers would think this needs to be put into the game as a defined condition.

Now, that being said, it still leaves us with the problem of the druid having their HP set to its previous amount. I use the above definition of the "condition" of death. Thus, even though the druid has his HP set to his previous amount as per reversion, he still has not had a restore life effect targeted him, and is thus, still dead.

I'm a DM. This is the ruling I am using.

[Shining Wrath]

Gonna say it again:
Creatures in D&D have souls.
PW:K sends that soul away.
The druid's soul is gone to the hereafter. Whether in the wildshaped form or the druid form, there is no soul to animate the body; it is a corpse.

Would you argue that if someone Magic Jars a wildshaped druid that the druid reverts to normal form and their soul comes back?

[Myzz]

I think the differences center around 2 issues:
1. Druid's body vs Wildshape Form's body
2. Lack of a Dead Condition

The general vs specific argument on which is more specific is interesting. I would agree that PWK is a very specific spell, that applies a very general condition (so general that the condition does not really exist as a condition but does have specific rules that apply to that condition none of which are relevant to this discussion because it does NOT say when you die you gain 0 Hit points).

Druid Wildshape is a somewhat general state, that has very specific rules that govern it. One such very specific rule states that if the druid dies then it reverts. Another very specific rule that says if it reverts it returns to hitpoints prior to gaining wildshape. I can see no specific ruling on whether status conditions carry over to the new form except hit point damage that exceeds what the wildshape body was able to accommodate for.

This discrepancy is what leads me to conclude that the druid's body and that of his wildshape are 2 seperate bodies, not one body. (same goes for polymorph and other such effects.)

Humor me for a moment:
What happens to a creature other than a player that reaches 0 Hit Points? It dies. No Death saving throws.

What happens when a conjured creature reaches 0 hit pints? It vanishes, no body remains.

What happens to a druid in whildhape when it reaches 0 Hit points? he doesnt die, he doesn't receive saving throws to stay in that form, he automatically reverts. Why? IMO its for the same reason as a conjured animal being reduced to 0 HP's.

You dont need the druid reverting back to normal for loot rules because the druid could have had them all fall to the ground when he took on the shape for that reason.

Lore wise (read fluff), I can only see a few different ways to mechanically make the druid HP onion pool viable.

First, the animal is a meat suit that is conjured around him... Damage does not directly affect the druid's normal bodyas it has to bypass the meat suit first. All psychic dmg would apply directly to the druid but not the meat suit. And the druid would be susceptible to PWK only when both HP totals were less than 100, the meat suit functioning as a temp HP pool.

Or Second, The druid conjures a beast who consciousness the druid possesses, while his own body is stuck in a temporal stasis in a seperate dimension. In which case all psychic dmg would directly affect the wildsphape, PWK would affect the druid based on the wild shapes HP pool, but would only kill the creature and the druid would shunted back into his own body.

Or Third, the druid becomes the actual creature transforming his body into the creature, in which case any additions to druid's Con and HP gaining abilities should affect the creatures body. For instance a Tiefling Druid with Fire Resistance would have fire resistance in wild shape (but would not in the previous 2 examples). The Feat Tough would affect the druid in wild shape because that is the same skin after all its just been formed into a new shape. ASI improvements to CON would also increase wildshape HP's It is the Druid's internal organs, skin and the like after all. And PWK would kill the druid, it is after the druid. Psychic DMG would directly affect the wildshape. And when the druid in whildshape was reduced to 0 HP, the druid would fall unconscious and revert to his normal form with whatever HP he had left that was the difference between the amount of HPs he had as a beast and his norm minus any extra damage. After all that was the druid being attacked not some different animal. This is NOT the way the rule for druid are written in this edition.

I see no other option for how the druid mechanic could work lorewise. Which should indicate how the effect of PWK works in this instance of being a differerent creature.

All of that is of course up to the DM to interpret how they wish. I prefer option 3, but thats not RAW. And I think Option 2 is the closest interpretation of RAW. And Option 1 just looks cool.

(note: I had to go AFK while in the middle of typing)

edited cuz I mixed up 1 and 2 in conclusion.

[SharkForce]

Once again, keep in mind that means that CWB+PW:K kills pretty much everything.

whether we do that or not, it's entirely possible for a couple of people to combine their efforts to make PWK + some other action instantly kill.

but truthfully, the largest part of the problem there is that a creature which can cast polymorph shouldn't be CR 1/4, because with or without PWK polymorph can basically remove an enemy from a fight by simply turning them into a small (mostly) harmless creature.

[Fwiffo86]

First, the animal is a meat suit that is conjured around him... Damage does not directly affect the druid's normal bodyas it has to bypass the meat suit first. All psychic dmg would apply directly to the druid but not the meat suit. And the druid would be susceptible to PWK only when both HP totals were less than 100, the meat suit functioning as a temp HP pool.


The only flaw here is that it is not counted as temporary hit points, elsewise it would be described as such. The system is very specific about temporary hit points, and what gives them. In no way would they have ignored this if that was the intention.



Or Second, The druid conjures a beast who consciousness the druid possesses, while his own body is stuck in a temporal stasis in a seperate dimension. In which case all psychic dmg would directly affect the wildsphape, PWK would affect the druid based on the wild shapes HP pool, but would only kill the creature and the druid would shunted back into his own body.


Except that Wildshape and polymorph spells specifically share mechanics. A target of a polymorph spell is not shunted to some extradimensional closet. Especially when you consider that polymorph can become permanent.



Or Third, the druid becomes the actual creature transforming his body into the creature, in which case any additions to druid's Con and HP gaining abilities should affect the creatures body. For instance a Tiefling Druid with Fire Resistance would have fire resistance in wild shape (but would not in the previous 2 examples). The Feat Tough would affect the druid in wild shape because that is the same skin after all its just been formed into a new shape. ASI improvements to CON would also increase wildshape HP's It is the Druid's internal organs, skin and the like after all. And PWK would kill the druid, it is after the druid. Psychic DMG would directly affect the wildshape. And when the druid in whildshape was reduced to 0 HP, the druid would fall unconscious and revert to his normal form with whatever HP he had left that was the difference between the amount of HPs he had as a beast and his norm minus any extra damage. After all that was the druid being attacked not some different animal. This is NOT the way the rule for druid are written in this edition.


This is closest to being true as per the description in Wildshape. The druid keeps any racial abilities it had. Thus a wildshaped elf is in fact immune to magical sleep, can trance, etc. Thus a tiefling keeps his fire resistance. Racial sensory abilities are specifically called out, and transfer over only if the new form shares them. All other physical aspects of the character (Str, Dex, Con, Hp, etc) are superseded by the new forms stats as per the description as well.

The argument about ASI increasing druid forms has been done. Since all classes get them, they are not considered class abilities (which are unique to the class that grants them) and thus do not fall under the "keep class abilities" clause.

The druid form is not a set of clothes or temp hit points. If it were, it would have been described as so. With being forced to adopt the physical attributes of the form, how is any other description left for interpretation other than changing shape?



I see no other option for how the druid mechanic could work lorewise. Which should indicate how the effect of PWK works in this instance of being a differerent creature.


I appreciate and understand your argument. But we aren't discussing fluff, or lore. We are trying to hammer down a spell interaction mechanic vs. a class ability. Lore and fluff should not be considered until after, and then reconciled when a deciding factor has been come to. If that is on an individual basis, then so be it.

[gameogre]

Druid is alive when he reverts to his true form.

To do otherwise would be bad. Not just for the druid but for everyone.

It changes the entire game if he isn't and turns the major druid ability to crud.

People getting too wrapped up into wording and forgetting the fun aspect of the game.

There are tons of ways to end up dead without taking hit point damage. Is a nice little perk for druids that like to shape shift, lord knows they need it.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

[Fwiffo86]

Druid is alive when he reverts to his true form.

To do otherwise would be bad. Not just for the druid but for everyone.

It changes the entire game if he isn't and turns the major druid ability to crud.

People getting too wrapped up into wording and forgetting the fun aspect of the game.

There are tons of ways to end up dead without taking hit point damage. Is a nice little perk for druids that like to shape shift, lord knows they need it.

Don't sweat the small stuff.

Except the only way to kill the druid is to deal around 230 points of damage to him. You have in immortal druid.

Not to mention this brings "I can bring people back from the dead by casting Cure Wounds on them! They have hit points! They are Alive!"

As well as renders all other death effects moot. Suffocation, Exhaustion, Poison, Beheading, etc.

Its not small stuff.

[gameogre]

Except the only way to kill the druid is to deal around 230 points of damage to him. You have in immortal druid.

Not to mention this brings "I can bring people back from the dead by casting Cure Wounds on them! They have hit points! They are Alive!"

As well as renders all other death effects moot. Suffocation, Exhaustion, Poison, Beheading, etc.

Its not small stuff.

Your premise is faulty. There are literally thousands of ways to kill the druid. You have tunnel vision because you are all wrapped up in this argument and only see one set of (right) facts.

Relax man, we are all friends just playing a game. Nobody wants to defeat game death.

Frankly shape shifting already seems like a pretty weak power for the druids as it is. If you ruled that any death other than strait hit point damage death bypassed things and killed them it would be pretty much worthless especially at higher levels. If you are going to error I always try and error on the side of PC coolness.

[Z3ro]

Your premise is faulty. There are literally thousands of ways to kill the druid.


Please elaborate; there's been multiple threads trying to kill level 20 druids, and most fail to find an easy way.

[Myzz]

Why do you keep thinking druid is immortal if you can't PWK him?

You do X amount of dmg to a druid in wild shape that likely killed his wild shape and applied carry over, his next turn if no one else attacked him he changes into something else and again you do Y dmg to him with carry over. A moon druid could drink a potion and or cast a heal on himself then as a bonus action change... either way he is expending resources to be a HP sponge.

At 20th level, a Druid would have at most 300 HP's. Thats if he started with a 20 Con and took the Tough feat. Most of his forms even at that level are going to have under 200. There are effects that can make him auto shift out besides reducing his wildshape to 0. So either force him out, and dmg him directly which he cant heal for or be healed to during his wildshape, then PWK or keep dmging him when he's in normal form. HE does not become immortal or invincible by being able to deflect a PWK much like a level 4 Cleric Spell. Saying the whole schtick of a class/subclass combo is worse than a level 4 spell is kind of redonkulous.



to hearken to the title of the post... I get the impression that the purpose of the post is to say look, i finally found a way to bypass all those pesky druid hp's. In which case I think your not very inventive. teleport him into a volcano splash bear druid just died in lava. teleport him to the abyss and let him have some fun there while you deal with his party mates... You dont even need to have him make a save if BBEG goes with him via a hidden teleportation circle, of course anyone in range also enters said Abyss. Drop a force cage or some barrier around circle prior so that they have to spend time/resources in order to follow you. Could even be a contingency spell. Once in the Abyss... the druid and whoever managed to go with him will deffinately find a fight they were not expecting and most likely die anyways...

[ZeltArruin]

I'm kinda confused by this whole argument, given that death is explicitly covered by the written rules. It has no effect on the druid when they are forced back via dying. It literally says that. Lots of people have been putting words that aren't there into the rules.

[Fwiffo86]

Why do you keep thinking druid is immortal if you can't PWK him?

to hearken to the title of the post... I get the impression that the purpose of the post is to say look, i finally found a way to bypass all those pesky druid hp's. In which case I think your not very inventive. teleport him into a volcano splash bear druid just died in lava.


Unless he takes 300 damage per round, incorrect, he just spends his bonus action to wildshape, then move, takes damage, forced out of wildshape, repeat process until he is out of the lava



teleport him to the abyss and let him have some fun there while you deal with his party mates...


The question of the thread is not how to remove a druid from combat. It is Is the druid dead after reversion from a non-hit point damage death effect?

[GiantOctopodes]

1) Why do you keep thinking druid is immortal if you can't PWK him?

You do X amount of dmg to a druid in wild shape that likely killed his wild shape and applied carry over, his next turn if no one else attacked him he changes into something else and again you do Y dmg to him with carry over. A moon druid could drink a potion and or cast a heal on himself then as a bonus action change... either way he is expending resources to be a HP sponge.

At 20th level, a Druid would have at most 300 HP's. Thats if he started with a 20 Con and took the Tough feat. Most of his forms even at that level are going to have under 200. There are effects that can make him auto shift out besides reducing his wildshape to 0. So either force him out, and dmg him directly which he cant heal for or be healed to during his wildshape, then PWK or keep dmging him when he's in normal form. HE does not become immortal or invincible by being able to deflect a PWK much like a level 4 Cleric Spell. Saying the whole schtick of a class/subclass combo is worse than a level 4 spell is kind of redonkulous.



2) to hearken to the title of the post... I get the impression that the purpose of the post is to say look, i finally found a way to bypass all those pesky druid hp's. In which case I think your not very inventive. teleport him into a volcano splash bear druid just died in lava. teleport him to the abyss and let him have some fun there while you deal with his party mates... You dont even need to have him make a save if BBEG goes with him via a hidden teleportation circle, of course anyone in range also enters said Abyss. Drop a force cage or some barrier around circle prior so that they have to spend time/resources in order to follow you. Could even be a contingency spell. Once in the Abyss... the druid and whoever managed to go with him will deffinately find a fight they were not expecting and most likely die anyways...

1) It makes him substantially *more* immortal to any other class. It makes what is already the singular best source of renewable temp HP, if you want to think of it that way, also a blanket immunity to all non-HP means of death, which is frankly an absurdly powerful buff to an already very powerful ability. It's giving Druids a 4th level spell at will wrapped into an existing ability.

2) The Druid uses control weather to turn the area around here as cold as possible, then uses meld into stone to merge with the molten stone, until it completely cools off. Or he creates water to locally cool the stone and creates a pathway he walks across in that manner. Alternately he wild shapes into a bird and rises on the thermal air and flies away. Alternately, he uses plane shift to get out of there. Plenty of options, Volcano does not equal dead druid even slightly. Ignoring that he could just plane shift out of the abyss as well, being in the Abyss is not inherently harmful, and you have not demonstrated how the creatures in the abyss would kill the aforementioned 20th level moon druid whose wild shape makes him immune to death.

[Fwiffo86]

I'm kinda confused by this whole argument, given that death is explicitly covered by the written rules. It has no effect on the druid when they are forced back via dying. It literally says that. Lots of people have been putting words that aren't there into the rules.

Please site where you are obtaining this information. I would like to view it for myself. I don't recall anywhere saying that reversion restores dead characters.

If it did, all you would have to do is polymorph a dead body and cancel the spell to return a character to life.

[GiantOctopodes]

Please site where you are obtaining this information. I would like to view it for myself. I don't recall anywhere saying that reversion restores dead characters.

If it did, all you would have to do is polymorph a dead body and cancel the spell to return a character to life.

Actually, I think (but am not sure) that he may have been arguing the other standpoint, that it has no effect (as in, it does not restore hit points or restore to life in any way) on a dead druid. Of course, the fact that his statement in and of itself can be taken multiple different ways is not a strong indication of the clarity of the rules.

[ZeltArruin]

Please site where you are obtaining this information. I would like to view it for myself. I don't recall anywhere saying that reversion restores dead characters.

If it did, all you would have to do is polymorph a dead body and cancel the spell to return a character to life.

It never states that the druid dies, simply that the wildshape form is killed.

[Fwiffo86]

It never states that the druid dies, simply that the wildshape form is killed.

It doesn't say that either. It says that death causes the druid to revert to their humanoid form. There is no killing a wildshape form. If it actually said that, we wouldn't have the issue, the Druid would be dead, since a wildshaped druid is still a druid.

[deusflac]

It never states that the druid dies, simply that the wildshape form is killed.

that would only work if the wild shape form is a completely different body, which is not stated anywhere. RAW specifically states that the "druid magically assumes the shape" which indicates that its still the druid's body but with different physical stats due to the new body's shape.

[ZeltArruin]

It doesn't say that either. It says that death causes the druid to revert to their humanoid form. There is no killing a wildshape form. If it actually said that, we wouldn't have the issue, the Druid would be dead, since a wildshaped druid is still a druid.

Right, it doesn't mention anything about the druid form. It only mentions the death of the wildshape. I don't care about people's interpretations of the wildshape-druid relationship, that doesn't enter into the conversation. When the form dies/etc, you pop back to druid form as you were when you shaped. That's what it says in the wildshape rules.

[Myzz]

it says the target of the spell: "That Bear over there", not that Druid in Bear form. The Bear dies from PWK and druid reverts per normal rules. His soul was not sent elsewhere (does not saying thing about that), it says the target dies. What happens when that 34 HP Brown Bear dies? Out pops a 160ish HP level 20 Druid... Alive and with whatever HP's he had going in.

PWK does not give you the ability to see the druid's soul and target that... You see a bear and you target that... When the bear dies it is replaced by a normal druid who is indeed alive!

<edited to say: Wow up to 6 pages, on something I thought was pretty clear. I am really glad I was not the only one reading it this way...>

[Ent]

PWK does not give you the ability to see the druid's soul and target that... You see a bear and you target that... When the bear dies it is replaced by a normal druid who is indeed alive!

Is your argument that the druid and the bear are different characters?

[GiantOctopodes]

This whole thing is somewhat silly. People are free to add rules and play their game however they want. However, it's past time for someone to break down RAW:

What it DOES say:
"You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die" (3 different conditions)
"When you transform, you assume the beast’s hit points and Hit Dice. When you revert to your normal form, you return to the number of hit points you had before you transformed. However, if you revert as a result of dropping to 0 hit points, any excess damage carries over to your normal form. For example, if you take 10 damage in animal form and have only 1 hit point left, you revert and take 9 damage. As long as the excess damage doesn’t reduce your normal form to 0 hit points, you aren’t knocked unconscious."

What it DOES NOT say:
When you revert, if you reverted as a result of falling unconscious, you stay unconscious.
When you revert, if you reverted as a result of dying, you stay dead.
When you revert, if you reverted as a result of falling unconscious, you are no longer unconscious.
When you revert, if you reverted as a result of dying, you are no longer dead.

Now, the one (out of 3) conditions it expressly details what occurs when you revert is HP loss. The rules about managing your HP are for exactly that, managing your HP, and do not apply, directly or indirectly, to either being unconscious or dead. If you choose to ADD a link between HP and being alive or dead to the rules, you should then similarly ADD mechanics supporting that house rule to the abilities that don't currently need any such mechanics, because there *is no such link* in the rules as they are written. If there are, I'd welcome a page number and or quote.

That being said, when it does not specify if a condition persists or is negated, that would mean it persists. Death has specific conditions for when it ends- notably, the use of magic such as revivify. Revivify or similar magic is not used here. Thus the conditions for ceasing to be dead have not met, and as such, per the RAW, a Druid who dies while under the effects of Wildshape, though they revert, reverts dead and remains dead until revivify or similar magic is used.

[Myzz]

Different character with different HP pools and different stats, YES.

The game has very specific rules on what happens to a killed wildshape and or polymorph form. Targeting a creature under either of those set conditions is targeting the creature, not whoevers soul happens to be inside said creature at the time. Those effects when ended due to its death causes a very specific rule occurance where the actual inhabitor of that body is now revealed with his/her Hit points prior to assuming said effect.

[visitor]

Is your argument that the druid and the bear are different characters?

I think what some are saying at this point is it doesn't matter. It's not philosophy or metaphysics.

[Icewraith]

Is the reversion language used in the description of wild shape also found in the description of the polymorph spell?

If you look at it as saying "when a wildshaped druid dies, he pops back into his normal form at the HP total he had before entering the shape, less any overdamage from the attack that killed him" it's pretty hard to argue that PWK permakills a wildshaped druid below 100 HP. In fact, since you usually fall unconscious well before you die from HP damage, the reversion language specifically mentioning unconsciousness AND death might suggest that if you hit a wildshaped druid with any sort of hp damage bypassing death effect, it is SUPPOSED to trigger reversion and the druid is supposed to be forced out of wildshape but otherwise fine.

[Myzz]

btw you are causing that <insert wildshape creature here> to die, not the druid. You can only see the <insert wildshape creature here> , therefore only able to target <insert wildshape creature here> which does indeed die. (incidentally just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP). Thus druid underneath could NOT be targeted nor affected.



edited for english and slight

[gameogre]

it says the target of the spell: "That Bear over there", not that Druid in Bear form. The Bear dies from PWK and druid reverts per normal rules. His soul was not sent elsewhere (does not saying thing about that), it says the target dies. What happens when that 34 HP Brown Bear dies? Out pops a 160ish HP level 20 Druid... Alive and with whatever HP's he had going in.

PWK does not give you the ability to see the druid's soul and target that... You see a bear and you target that... When the bear dies it is replaced by a normal druid who is indeed alive!

<edited to say: Wow up to 6 pages, on something I thought was pretty clear. I am really glad I was not the only one reading it this way...>

You are not the only one by a long shot.

[GiantOctopodes]

Is the reversion language used in the description of wild shape also found in the description of the polymorph spell?

If you look at it as saying "when a wildshaped druid dies, he pops back into his normal form at the HP total he had before entering the shape, less any overdamage from the attack that killed him" it's pretty hard to argue that PWK permakills a wildshaped druid below 100 HP. In fact, since you usually fall unconscious well before you die from HP damage, the reversion language specifically mentioning unconsciousness AND death might suggest that if you hit a wildshaped druid with any sort of hp damage bypassing death effect, it is SUPPOSED to trigger reversion and the druid is supposed to be forced out of wildshape but otherwise fine.

But that's expressly *NOT* what it says. It says "when a wildshape is reduced to 0 HP, he pops back to his normal form at the HP total he had before entering the shape, less any overdamage from the attack that reduced him to 0 hp". It mentions 0 HP as being something that can revert the druid, *and* unconsciousness and death. It also mentions that he is not unconscious when he reverts *if and only if* he was going to be unconscious due to HP loss, but the HP loss in question does not revert his original form to 0 HP.

[Ent]

I think what some are saying at this point is it doesn't matter. It's not philosophy or metaphysics.

I just think GiantOctopodes is correct and do not see how it can be viewed as 2 different characters.

[GiantOctopodes]

btw you are causing that <insert wildshape creature here> to die, not the druid. You can only see the <insert wildshape creature here> , therefore only able to target <insert wildshape creature here> which does indeed die. (incidentally just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP). Thus druid underneath could NOT be targeted nor affected.



edited for english and slight

What Wild Shape actually does:

"Starting at 2nd level, you can use your action to magically assume the shape of a beast that you have seen before."
"You can stay in a beast shape for a number of hours equal to half your druid level (rounded down)."
"Your game statistics are replaced by the statistics of the beast, but you retain your alignment, personality, and Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. You also retain all of your skill and saving throw proficiencies, in addition to gaining those of the creature"

You do not magically conjure an animal and hide your soul within it. You take on the form, or shape of a creature. You *are* the bear, in all ways shapes and forms, otherwise it would not be under your control. If the Bear dies, you die, because the Bear is just a druid with the shape of a bear, not a separate bear conjured that the Druid is somehow inhabiting.

[Myzz]

It also mentions that he is not unconscious when he reverts *if and only if* he was going to be unconscious due to HP loss, but the HP loss in question does not revert his original form to 0 HP.

Thats not what it says. It does indeed imply that though.

"As long as the excess dmg doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hp, you aren't knocked unconscious"

That is nearly verbatim, i added the abbreviations. AND it is the only time other than auto-reverting conditions that says anything about unconsiousness.

That could be interpreted to mean that reverting due to unconsciousness leaves the druid unconscious or that since the druid's normal form was not reduced to 0 hp's he is NOT unconscious. Which is a seperate but linked topic, mostly having to deal with what the changing mechanic is.

[Myzz]

You do not magically conjure an animal and hide your soul within it. You take on the form, or shape of a creature. You *are* the bear, in all ways shapes and forms, otherwise it would not be under your control. If the Bear dies, you die, because the Bear is just a druid with the shape of a bear, not a separate bear conjured that the Druid is somehow inhabiting.

then when the druid exits wild shape it should have a proportional amount of HP loss due to being the same. Mechanically it does not.

The way I was told to think of druid's wildshape is. When you wild shape you gain a new character sheet, for that beast with your relevant abilities added to the beasts. So when that character is killed, you toss that sheet away and return to your original druid sheet.

In this case the Wildshape sheet was indeed killed by PWK, and now the Druid is himself again with whatever HP's he previously had. I would also wipe any status effects, conditions by doing so. This is the easiest way to run the Druid mechanic, and shows how he is affected while in wild shape...

<edited for english>

[GiantOctopodes]

\
"As long as the excess dmg doesn't reduce your normal form to 0 hp, you aren't knocked unconscious"

That is nearly verbatim, i added the abbreviations. AND it is the only time other than auto-reverting conditions that says anything about unconsiousness.

That could be interpreted to mean that reverting due to unconsciousness leaves the druid unconscious or that since the druid's normal form was not reduced to 0 hp's he is NOT unconscious. Which is a seperate but linked topic, mostly having to deal with what the changing mechanic is.

No, what it says then is that if your base form isn't reduced to 0 hp, you aren't reduced to 0 HP you aren't KNOCKED unconscious. Meaning, you don't Acquire the unconscious condition through hitting 0 HP, as you normally would. Again speaking specifically about HP loss, and expressly stating you do not GAIN the condition, not that the condition does not persist if already present. It does indeed not detail it elsewhere, because it does not need to. The things which make you unconscious have their own rules for how they act, how long they persist, how they can be ended, etc. It is expressly not adding any new rules regarding this, which means that the existing rules would still apply- if, as an example, you were knocked unconscious via the sleep spell, you would follow the normal rules regarding the sleep spell, with the only difference being this specifying that the moment you went out, you revert to your normal form.

It specifies no other differences in the way being unconscious operates, so it *is not* otherwise different from normal (you're out for a minute or until someone wakes or damages you).

Edit:

then when the druid exits wild shape it should have a proportional amount of HP loss due to being the same. Mechanically it does not.

The way I was told to think of druid's wildshape is. When you wild shape you gain a new character sheet, for that beast with your relevant abilities added to the beasts. So when that character is killed, you toss that sheet away and return to your original druid sheet.

In this case the Wildshape sheet was indeed killed by PWK, and now the Druid is himself again with whatever HP's he previously had. I would also wipe any status effects, conditions by doing so. This is the easiest way to run the Druid mechanic, and shows how he is affected while in wild shape...

<edited for english>

That's a fine way to operate, but not at all what the rules indicate. You don't gain a new character sheet, you specifically *replace* (their word, not mine) certain statistics on your character sheet with those of the animal. So when the character is killed, or paralyzed, or poisoned, or whatever else, that doesn't magically go away just because certain statistics are replaced back. And in terms of having a proportional amount of HP loss, I agree, but they have specific mechanics for how HP loss operates, and it is *quite* possible for a blow that hits the rabbit to severely damage or kill the druid, because it's the same creature. The fact that you can take damage from a blow to the creature *at all* should tell you they are one and the same.

[Shadow]

The way I was told to think of druid's wildshape is. When you wild shape you gain a new character sheet, for that beast with your relevant abilities added to the beasts. So when that character is killed, you toss that sheet away and return to your original druid sheet.

In this case the Wildshape sheet was indeed killed by PWK, and now the Druid is himself again with whatever HP's he previously had. I would also wipe any status effects, conditions by doing so. This is the easiest way to run the Druid mechanic, and shows how he is affected while in wild shape...

<edited for english>

The way you were told to think of wildshape is incorrect, and that's probably where your confusion comes from.
He should have told you:
When you wild shape you gain a new character sheet, for your body transforms and your stats change to those of that beast with your relevant abilities added to the beasts. So when that character is killed reduced to 0hp, you toss that sheet away and return to your original druid sheet, but any status effects and lingering effects remain.

[deusflac]

btw you are causing that <insert wildshape creature here> to die, not the druid. You can only see the <insert wildshape creature here> , therefore only able to target <insert wildshape creature here> which does indeed die. (incidentally just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP). Thus druid underneath could NOT be targeted nor affected.



edited for english and slight

but there is no "druid underneath." the wild shaped creature is the druid not some sort of meat gundam. RAW specifically states that the druid "...magically assume the shape of a beast" not "be enveloped by meat armor"

[Shadow]

Look people, the Druid is the target of the death effect from a spell, not some imaginary bear that protects the druid from death effects.
The Druid changed the shape of his body into that of a bear. Then someone targets the Druid with a death effect. His life force is snuffed out. He dies. Then his dead body reverts to its natural state, because that's the way changing shapes works.
This does not mysteriously anti-snuff his life force back into his body.
He. Is. Dead.
Get over it.

For all intents and purposes, the wildshape gives you temp HP equal to that of the beast, and when those temp HP are gone, you revert. They didn't word it this way because if they did then temp HP wouldn't stack with it, and the reasonably low HP of beasts made adding temp HP to the form a preferable strategy.

edit: v *that post wasn't edited* v

[visitor]

The way you were told to think of wildshape is incorrect, and that's probably where your confusion comes from.
He should have told you:
When you wild shape you gain a new character sheet, for your body transforms and your stats change to those of that beast with your relevant abilities added to the beasts. So when that character is killed reduced to 0hp, you toss that sheet away and return to your original druid sheet, but any status effects and lingering effects remain.

I think he has a perfectly reasonable way to interpret things. Not the only way, and that's why this thread is 6 pages and growing.

You're edit about "status effects and lingering effects remaining" are also your interpretation, and not RAW. It's reasonable too.

[visitor]

Look people, the Druid is the target of the death effect from a spell, not some imaginary bear that protects the druid from death effects.
The Druid changed the shape of his body into that of a bear. Then someone targets the Druid with a death effect. His life force is snuffed out. He dies. Then his dead body reverts to its natural state, because that's the way changing shapes works.
This does not mysteriously anti-snuff his life force back into his body.
He. Is. Dead.
Get over it.

edit: v *that post wasn't edited* v

Another way to look at it would be it's the druid protected by a spell. The 4th level cleric spell Death Ward protects completely from PWK, and it's duration is 8 hrs.

It's just not that clear.

[Z3ro]

Just out of curiosity, for the people arguing that PW:K does not kill a wildshaped druid:

What happens when a vorpal sword rolls a 20 against a wildshaped druid? The item explicitly says it severs the head and kills the target. Now, presumably, this would cause the druid to revert, but revert to what? Are they alive without their head? Are they dead? Does the severed head just disappear?

[Shadow]

Another way to look at it would be it's the druid protected by a spell. The 4th level cleric spell Death Ward protects completely from PWK, and it's duration is 8 hrs.

It's just not that clear.

You missed my edit.

For all intents and purposes, the wildshape gives you temp HP equal to that of the beast, and when those temp HP are gone, you revert. They didn't word it this way because if they did then temp HP wouldn't stack with it, and the reasonably low HP of beasts made adding temp HP to the form a preferable strategy.

edit: Plus, they wanted Druids in wildshape to be vulnerable to effects which rely on HP, and adding temp HP would have made them resistant, whiich would be counterproductive to the concept.
But the idea remains the same. It is effectively temp HP for these purposes, but you don't count the normal HP when determining effects which rely on HP.

[deusflac]

Just out of curiosity, for the people arguing that PW:K does not kill a wildshaped druid:

What happens when a vorpal sword rolls a 20 against a wildshaped druid? The item explicitly says it severs the head and kills the target. Now, presumably, this would cause the druid to revert, but revert to what? Are they alive without their head? Are they dead? Does the severed head just disappear?

i've been trying to get that questioned answered several times in this thread and it keeps on getting missed. but from my observation the meat armor camp would say the druid reverts, conscious, with a head, but unable to justify why.

[visitor]

Just out of curiosity, for the people arguing that PW:K does not kill a wildshaped druid:

What happens when a vorpal sword rolls a 20 against a wildshaped druid? The item explicitly says it severs the head and kills the target. Now, presumably, this would cause the druid to revert, but revert to what? Are they alive without their head? Are they dead? Does the severed head just disappear?

I think that's another odd ball situation very much like PWK, and can be looked at either way. Disintegrate is sort of the same, is the bear body reduced to ash? Does it revert first, then turn to ash? Does it revert, continue to take the damage, and ends fine if HP>0?

I think it boils down to not being clear cut in the books. I would tend to rule it whatever is more fun for the players.

edit: Actually, I would probably tend toward the vorpal killing the druid. If it will kill a 20th level fighter/wizard/cleric (unless he's death warded), then sure.

[GiantOctopodes]

Another way to look at it would be it's the druid protected by a spell. The 4th level cleric spell Death Ward protects completely from PWK, and it's duration is 8 hrs.

It's just not that clear.

Yes, but that's the difference. Death Ward completely protects from PWK, a 4th level spell, because it expressly states it does so. I will point out that *no* class gets an at will ability equal to a 4th level spell (in fact, not even equal to a 3rd level spell), so rolling one into an existing 2nd level ability which *does not* expressly state it protects against such effects is a huge and massively powerful boost to the ability.

Note too that the rules are pretty clear, by their absence. Wild Shape does not indicate it removes any conditions present on you when you take on the form. It indicates which statistics you replace and which ones you keep, but says nothing about conditions, either when taking on the form or reverting. If a part of the book (as an example, the ability that causes the condition) has rules for how the condition is gained, how it is lost, how long it lasts, etc, and there is nothing in the rules for wildshape which countermands those rules, would it not make sense that the rules that do exist which govern that condition, which have not been countermanded or overwritten in any way, would continue to apply normally? Indomitable does not say that "on a second failure, you suffer half of normal damage if damage is taken from the effect in question". As such, on a second failure, the normal consequences of failing the saving throw apply. It does not need to specify what happens if you fail, because those rules already exist. The same applies here. Unless you specifically ADD rules and abilities to something that does NOT expressly have them now, there simply *are* no meaningful rules regarding the interaction of Wildshape and conditions, which would simply mean there *is* no interaction between wild shape and conditions, the normal condition rules (which already exist) would take effect instead.

Edit:

I think that's another odd ball situation very much like PWK, and can be looked at either way. Disintegrate is sort of the same, is the bear body reduced to ash? Does it revert first, then turn to ash? Does it revert, continue to take the damage, and ends fine if HP>0?

I think it boils down to not being clear cut in the books. I would tend to rule it whatever is more fun for the players.

Personally I'd rule that Vorpal Swords kill the druid, if it would kill the creature. After all, it doesn't revert due to body part loss, only if the sword reduces the target to 0 HP or kills it. If the sword has killed it, it doesn't matter that the reverted form has a head (it would, as far as I can tell), it's still dead.
The same would be true of disintegrate. They get knocked to 0 HP, disintegrated, turn into dust, then revert back- intact other than any equipment the form in question was wearing / wielding, which was of course disintegrated, but quite dead and only able to be brought back to life via true resurrection or Wish. The rules do not conflict.

[Shadow]

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/553630203550138369

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls @wotc_rodney Wildshaped druid gets hit with PWK > reverts > dead or alive?

[pwykersotz]

i've been trying to get that questioned answered several times in this thread and it keeps on getting missed. but from my observation the meat armor camp would say the druid reverts, conscious, with a head, but unable to justify why.

Mainly DM; sometimes player.

I'm firmly in the "It's dead, Jim" camp, but that argument isn't insurmountable.

Presumably magic which alters form is capable of a certain amount of flexibility when changing the form. If it can generate new limbs (in the case of creatures with a tail, for example) then the transformation might very well compensate for the head being gone as well. If it couldn't compensate for wounds at all, the Druid would bear the scars of every blow taken as an animal. Re-forming the head is just a more powerful version of that.

[Shadow]

https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/553630203550138369

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls @wotc_rodney Wildshaped druid gets hit with PWK > reverts > dead or alive?

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Dead. PWK does not deal damage; it causes death if the target has a certain number of hit points.

/thread

[mephnick]

I'm just not sure why people are so quick to make the druid completely immune to death effects.

Better give the other classes something amazing to catch up.

[Myzz]

Vorpal Sword would chop off the Bear's head, the bear dies, the druid reverts to normal self with his head on and whatever HP's...

The Bear in the PWK example is not an imaginary creature it is the only creature in this example that you are targeting with PWK. The Bear dies, just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP, which is what happens to every creature that is NOT a player character at 0 HP's.

When the bear creature dies, the druid character reverts to his druid creature self!

Notice I said the druid is a creature... Wait... most spells say "creature" not target or such. Barkskin for example: "You touch a willing creature..."

Like I said, there only 2 Mechanics for shifting that make sense in regards to HP pool:

1. The shifted form is a meat suit, and essentially gives you temp HP equal to said meat suit and the physical attributes of that meat suit and other abilities it has (ala druid jumped in a Mech suit). Meat suit, functioning essentially as armor allows you to cast an additional Temp HP buff upon it. In this case you can not see the druid driving the suit, so you can not target said druid. Incidentally if the Wiz had True Seeing up this would NOT be the case as he could see the Druid's actual form and target that!

2. The shifted form is actually a conjuration that the druid's soul possesses while his own body is kept safe in temporal stasis until he converts or is forced to revert. Which in this case you can NOT target the druid (except by True Seeing). When you target the best you are infact targeting a completely separate creature. So when you PWK the creature you see, the bear dies, out pop's druid at his norm hps and fully alive.


IF INDEED the druid and wildshape were one and the same body:

A. HP dmg would carry over proportionally to what the beast actually took

B. There would be nothing special to see with True Seeing when viewing a wildshaped druid, polymorphed anything, shapechanged lyncathrope and other such phenomena.

Mechanically playing where you rend the soul out of the druid's wild shape is perfectly acceptable to me. But in doing so, why didnt the druid instantly join up with his perfectly healthy body that has now appeared. PWK does not actually send your soul anywhere, if it did it would say that. Like many of you are saying the dead druid's body has whatever HP's but is dead because the druid's soul is not there... All sorts of nasty entities would love to fill that void. But unfortunatley for them the druid is the closest and strongest tied metaphysically to that body so he invariably wins control of the body. You could of course have him roll against a demon who happened to be nearby to take control back for his body, maybe opposed will power checks requiring 3 success? First one to 3 wins the body?

[Ohnoeszz]

Look people, the Druid is the target of the death effect from a spell, not some imaginary bear that protects the druid from death effects.
The Druid changed the shape of his body into that of a bear. Then someone targets the Druid with a death effect. His life force is snuffed out. He dies. Then his dead body reverts to its natural state, because that's the way changing shapes works.
This does not mysteriously anti-snuff his life force back into his body.
He. Is. Dead.
Get over it.

For all intents and purposes, the wildshape gives you temp HP equal to that of the beast, and when those temp HP are gone, you revert. They didn't word it this way because if they did then temp HP wouldn't stack with it, and the reasonably low HP of beasts made adding temp HP to the form a preferable strategy.

edit: v *that post wasn't edited* v

Look people, if I once again, condescendingly state my own interpretation of the rules, that should be enough for all of you. I have spoken.

That's helpful, isn't it?

We aren't at your table and you aren't DM. This thread has quickly reached this many pages precisely because rules beg interpretation and there are more than one defensible interpretation for these circumstances. Simply being more adamant is counterproductive to this discussion.

You say yourself, that for all intents and purposes, wild shape gives you temporary HP. Why then use only that temporary HP to represent the life-force of the Druid?

-----
Can someone tweet whoever-it-is so we can get a ruling like we did with Warlock invocations?

[Shadow]

Can someone tweet whoever-it-is so we can get a ruling like we did with Warlock invocations?

I already did, and I already got a response.
Scroll up a bit.
He's dead.

[Myzz]

I'm just not sure why people are so quick to make the druid completely immune to death effects.

Better give the other classes something amazing to catch up.

He is not immune, he just has protection while in wild shape. Get him to normal form and then he's just as susceptible as everyone else.

[Myzz]

I already did, and I already got a response.
Scroll up a bit.
He's dead.

sorry it might be my servers filters but I cant access that.

[Ent]

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Dead. PWK does not deal damage; it causes death if the target has a certain number of hit points.

/thread

After many pages, we have an answer: It is dead.

[Eslin]

Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?

[Z3ro]

Vorpal Sword would chop off the Bear's head, the bear dies, the druid reverts to normal self with his head on and whatever HP's...

What happens to the bear head?

[GiantOctopodes]

Vorpal Sword would chop off the Bear's head, the bear dies, the druid reverts to normal self with his head on and whatever HP's...

Who still just happens to be dead.


The Bear in the PWK example is not an imaginary creature it is the only creature in this example that you are targeting with PWK. The Bear dies, just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP, which is what happens to every creature that is NOT a player character at 0 HP's.

By Bear, you mean druid, because there is no bear, only a Druid with the shape of a bear.


When the bear creature dies, the druid character reverts to his druid creature self!

Or put another way, when the druid with the shape of a bear dies, the druid character reverts to his druid creature shape. This is entirely correct, and does not mean that druid creature is alive. Specifically, he just died, and reverted because he is *dead*. If he were not dead, he would not have reverted.




1. The shifted form is a meat suit, and essentially gives you temp HP equal to said meat suit and the physical attributes of that meat suit and other abilities it has (ala druid jumped in a Mech suit). Meat suit, functioning essentially as armor allows you to cast an additional Temp HP buff upon it. In this case you can not see the druid driving the suit, so you can not target said druid. Incidentally if the Wiz had True Seeing up this would NOT be the case as he could see the Druid's actual form and target that!


Incorrect, otherwise you would not *lose* abilities not possessed by the current form (most notably forms of movement, senses, speech, etc). Also, not what the rules indicate.



2. The shifted form is actually a conjuration that the druid's soul possesses while his own body is kept safe in temporal stasis until he converts or is forced to revert. Which in this case you can NOT target the druid (except by True Seeing). When you target the best you are infact targeting a completely separate creature. So when you PWK the creature you see, the bear dies, out pop's druid at his norm hps and fully alive.


Incorrect, simply because it is not *at all* what the rules indicate. As the rules have stated, which has been quoted many times, you take on the SHAPE of a Beast. Part of your Statistics are REPLACED by those of the animal, while others are not. No Bear is conjured or worn like a Mech, your body physically transforms to the shape of the beast in question. It's still you, just in a different shape.



IF INDEED the druid and wildshape were one and the same body:

A. HP dmg would carry over proportionally to what the beast actually took


HP damage *can* carry over. So, this point reinforces that as not only the way the rules say it occurs, but the correct interpretation. That it would carry over "proportionally" is how you feel it should occur is kinda a moot point, I happen to agree, but the fact remains, we have specific mechanics for HP loss and those *do* include carry over damage.



B. There would be nothing special to see with True Seeing when viewing a wildshaped druid, polymorphed anything, shapechanged lyncathrope and other such phenomena.


Not at all. You are seeing their *natural* form. As indicated, the same is true for polymorphed anything, shapechanged anything, etc. You see it as it would normally be if not under any effects. You're not peering into its soul or anything, merely seeing through the effect that has transformed their *body*.



Mechanically playing where you rend the soul out of the druid's wild shape is perfectly acceptable to me. But in doing so, why didnt the druid instantly join up with his perfectly healthy body that has now appeared. PWK does not actually send your soul anywhere, if it did it would say that. Like many of you are saying the dead druid's body has whatever HP's but is dead because the druid's soul is not there... All sorts of nasty entities would love to fill that void. But unfortunatley for them the druid is the closest and strongest tied metaphysically to that body so he invariably wins control of the body. You could of course have him roll against a demon who happened to be nearby to take control back for his body, maybe opposed will power checks requiring 3 success? First one to 3 wins the body?

There are no mechanics for an uninhabited soul to take control of a nearby empty corpse, which is what his body is. Upon death, per D&D lore, your soul *immediately* goes to the plane in which your diety resides, or whatever less harsh fate they have for faithless nowadays. You simply do not have the option of sticking around and hopping back in. The same is true of any other class who is cut down with Power Word Kill- their body is entirely unharmed by it, by the exact same logic, what is to stop them from hopping back into it? They don't have the option. Or someone gruesomly cut down, whose body is immediately repaired through curative magic. Why not hop back in? Because they can't. Same with the Druid, it doesn't matter that their corpse is unharmed, it's a corpse, and their soul is off to whatever fate it has in store for it, it simply *cannot* be reunited with its body short of magic such as revivify, just as the rules indicate.

[pwykersotz]

Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?

Your notation confuses me, is there another Conjure Woodland - something spell?

Are we taking as a premise that the player chooses what creatures to summon?

Globe of Invulnerability or Counterspell against the summon should do it.

[Ohnoeszz]

And now we have the greater issue IMO, that polymorph + PWK kills anything in the game.

[Fwiffo86]

Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?

At the power level required, I would expect any single bad guy to

A: Only be confronted face to face after he knows the tactics and countermeasures of his foes, and thus confronting them when he/it deems it is time.

B: Have set himself/itself up where killing him poses an exceptional problem to the players. (Slaying the king, having to take their place ruling over hell, etc.)

C: Waiting until the characters have recently fought minions and are getting ready to rest, then jump them with their pants down.

Just a few options.

[GiantOctopodes]

Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?

Indeed, have it be dark where he is, pixies can't see in the dark. Or have him immune to shapechange. Or immune to death effects. Or don't allow the PCs within 120' or line of sight of him. Or have him in an AMF. Or in the middle of a fog cloud or any other effect that obstructs vision. Or have him surrounded by allies who slay him the moment he transforms. Or have him wearing something that causes tremendous contact poison damage, and something that provides immunity to poison. When transformed, the contact poison item remains or falls to the ground (either way, he's touching it) while the immunity to poison item melds into his form, causing him to take massive poison damage and immediately revert. Or give him immunity to fire, and have him wallowing in an area of tremendous heat, such that any creature which starts its turn in it takes X damage, as pixies only have 1 HP, *any* amount of environmental damage will make them instantly combust. There are plenty of other options, but these were some of the basic ones that came to me off the top of my head.

[mephnick]

Can you even polymorph and PWK at the same time? Polymorph requires concentration. You'd need two high level casters.

I'm sure there are lots of two caster combos that can end a single enemy pretty fast.

Edit: Meant CWB, is also concentration

[Myzz]

First can someone repost the tweet for me I can't visit that page. Browser says its dead.



Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?

Easy Anti-Magic Lair or whatever. In Forgotten Realms there are many of Anti-Magic zones, some of which shadow magic actually works and normal magic, from arcane or divine sources do not. Perfect base for a powerful BBEG who fears being PWK'd with the combo.

Barring that:
Immunity to polymorph
Immunity to death effects


For SNG

Could a Lich or any undead, be True Polymorphed into whatever then have Death Magic like PWK used on them?

AND I still have not seen an explanation of how wildhshape and other shapechanger effects like polymorph work mechanically to restore HP to the original form? Why doesnt heal spell cast on a wild shape druid also effect his normal shape?

I understand wanting to have the spell work as it always has... but there are other mechanics in play, and this is a different edition and that is a different spell than previous versions of it...

[Z3ro]

And now we have the greater issue IMO, that polymorph + PWK kills anything in the game.

As others have pointed out, that combo has existed for a long time, but normally you'd cast a spell like disintegrate first. Bonus points for a wizard 18/fighter 2 to be able to do it by themselves.

[Shadow]

First can someone repost the tweet for me I can't visit that page. Browser says its dead.


https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/553630203550138369

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls @wotc_rodney Wildshaped druid gets hit with PWK > reverts > dead or alive?

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Dead. PWK does not deal damage; it causes death if the target has a certain number of hit points.

[kaoskonfety]

I assume its the summon a pixie with polymorph thing? and then murder?

Away from my books, but does this polymorph allow a save? - if so its a big bad for a lvl 17+ party, I declare I pass it. If not...

Deathward works fine yes? it doesn't vanish when you turn into a duck?
Putting a warrior NPC boss guy into and anti-magic field is hilarious...
Counterspell?
"I really *Wish* I wasn't a duck"
Contingency teleport "I become unable to cast spells"
temporary hit points trick?
kill the F***ing pixie first
kill the Power Word Caster first


If my lvl 17+ party broke out this particular... trick... I'd probably allow it to work. Cause... good job, you maniacs?

Then of course the tale of this madness spreads and a larger than expected number of bigbad people have workarounds, tricks and traps to account for it.

[GiantOctopodes]

Can you even polymorph and PWK at the same time? Polymorph requires concentration. You'd need two high level casters.

I'm sure there are lots of two caster combos that can end a single enemy pretty fast.

Indeed, the penultimate assassination squad in question would ideally have 4 high level casters- one of whom is a bard, for initiative manipulation, one of whom has CWB and an 8th level slot, one of whom has PWK, and the other of whom just needs to teleport them back out once the deed is done. They could in theory assassinate most people within a 6 second window, with little to no chance of repercussion, but a dimensional barrier such as in Hallow, amongst any of the multitude of things stated above, shuts them down. Just the two can do the job in a round when they're there, one with a 9th level slot and one with an 8th level, and so just a Bard and Wizard can do the deed, but they leave themselves open to reprisal in the course of committing the deed, and of course are still stymied by virtually any protection or preparation.

[Eslin]

As others have pointed out, that combo has existed for a long time, but normally you'd cast a spell like disintegrate first. Bonus points for a wizard 18/fighter 2 to be able to do it by themselves.

Why disintegrate? A 9th level disintegrate does 106.5 damage on a failed save - cast it on a pit fiend (CR 20, using it as my example here) and you're doing an average of half that in damage, it'll require 8 casts to get it into PW:K range. In comparison, summoning a bunch of pixies give a 92% chance to fail at least one save and then it's instantly dead.

[Shadow]

SAomeone felt the need for clarification, so I will add it for the sake of completeness.



First can someone repost the tweet for me I can't visit that page. Browser says its dead.


https://twitter.com/calebrus44/status/553630203550138369

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@JeremyECrawford @mikemearls @wotc_rodney Wildshaped druid gets hit with PWK > reverts > dead or alive?

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Dead. PWK does not deal damage; it causes death if the target has a certain number of hit points.

SirPantsPants @pj28doyl_sir
@wotc_rodney @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls ...And does death not revert the Druid back to form with its original HP?

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls It reverts physically, sure, but the druid is dead...

SirPantsPants ‏@pj28doyl_sir
@wotc_rodney @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Additionally, given your ruling, does polymorph + PWK = instakill

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Sure, if you polymorph something into a creature that has fewer than 100 hp

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Also that takes 2 actions, and requires 2 spells and a failed save

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@wotc_rodney @pj28doyl_sir We had a heated debate on our hands regarding WildShape reversion HP, so thank you for clearing it up for us.

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @pj28doyl_sir The important thing is that dead is dead.

[Shining Wrath]

1) It makes him substantially *more* immortal to any other class. It makes what is already the singular best source of renewable temp HP, if you want to think of it that way, also a blanket immunity to all non-HP means of death, which is frankly an absurdly powerful buff to an already very powerful ability. It's giving Druids a 4th level spell at will wrapped into an existing ability.

2) The Druid uses control weather to turn the area around here as cold as possible, then uses meld into stone to merge with the molten stone, until it completely cools off. Or he creates water to locally cool the stone and creates a pathway he walks across in that manner. Alternately he wild shapes into a bird and rises on the thermal air and flies away. Alternately, he uses plane shift to get out of there. Plenty of options, Volcano does not equal dead druid even slightly. Ignoring that he could just plane shift out of the abyss as well, being in the Abyss is not inherently harmful, and you have not demonstrated how the creatures in the abyss would kill the aforementioned 20th level moon druid whose wild shape makes him immune to death.

Or he takes the form of a fire elemental and basks, sipping an extremely hot latte.

[GiantOctopodes]

Why disintegrate? A 9th level disintegrate does 106.5 damage on a failed save - cast it on a pit fiend (CR 20, using it as my example here) and you're doing an average of half that in damage, it'll require 8 casts to get it into PW:K range. In comparison, summoning a bunch of pixies give a 92% chance to fail at least one save and then it's instantly dead.

Actually, the Pit Fiend in particular has both poison and fire immunity, so literally any one of the tricks listed above would work, but even just a naked unprotected pit fiend has advantage on saving throws, and a +10 to Wis saving throws (vs the DC of 12). As such, he needs to roll a 1 on 2 different dice to fail (a 1/400 chance, or .0025%). Over 24 castings of that, he has a 95% chance of passing all 24, or rather, a 5% chance of failing at least one of them. Even then, unless you're next in initiative, there are plenty of other options he can take to undo the damage before the PWK is used.

Edit: As a point of trivia, it takes a bit over 240 pixies before they get the Pit Fiend down to a 50% chance of failing one of the saves. Not remarkably efficient.

[Z3ro]

Why disintegrate? A 9th level disintegrate does 106.5 damage on a failed save - cast it on a pit fiend (CR 20, using it as my example here) and you're doing an average of half that in damage, it'll require 8 casts to get it into PW:K range. In comparison, summoning a bunch of pixies give a 92% chance to fail at least one save and then it's instantly dead.

I was thinking more of another PC (especially a spell-caster) who would only have in the 150-200 HP range. Feel free to substitute whatever damaging spell you like, it wasn't meant to be a one-situation-fits-all, much as the polymorph wouldn't work on a lycanthrope.

[Myzz]

1. Polymorph (L4 Wiz, Sorc, Or 6 Bard dipped 1 caster) + Disintegrate (L6 Wiz) = the lower level version of the combo

2. As well as you CWB - 8 pixies (L4 Druid) + Disintegrate (L6 Wiz)


Option 1 requires a Wizard and Sorc, or 2 Wizards, Or a L6 Bard dipped in at least 1 level of pure caster and a wizard.

Option 2 requires a Druid and a Wizard

Any Bard could get Polymorph at 10th Level, a Lore Bard could get it at his 6th level in Bard, +1 level any other pure caster.

And any pure caster level X + Wiz 1 could when they achieved thier 4th level slot scribe Polymorph into his/her spellbook and then cast it. (which from another post I wrote is why a spellbook is pretty powerfull, it allows access to all spells you could put in it and not have any requirements for casting that spell from the Class it belongs too).

So 2 party members can take out anyone who fails that poly save... And then a Dex save. Oh wait add an assassin or anyone with poison on their weapons who goes first and poison guy, now he's at a disadvantage on future save = WIN

[Justin Sane]

/threadYou're overly optimstic, aren't you? :smalltongue:

Ok, good we've sorted that out. Now that we know it works like that, anyone have a non-arbitrary way for powerful single bad guys to avoid getting instagibbed by a CW:B+PWK combo?Death Ward.

[Dizlag]

What happens to the bear head?

Being more of an old school gamer and remembering the Druid class from long ago requiring you to be True Neutral alignment, I would say the bear head would revert back to the normal form. The reason for the True Neutral alignment was the druid was to preserve the balance of nature and this kind of echoes the concept of nature balancing itself back out. Can't have bear head without a body and can't have a human body, for instance, without it's head. =)

Just my 2 cp.

Dizlag

[Vogonjeltz]

Please elaborate; there's been multiple threads trying to kill level 20 druids, and most fail to find an easy way.

It occurs to me that suffocation would be successful. Grapple Check to grab onto the Druid (or if bigger than large, Climb onto the Druid). Then a contest to begin choking the Druid. Druid can make an opposed Athletics or Acrobatics check to get out, otherwise follow the standard rules for suffocation.

If you're concerned about it working on Shapeshifting creatures, think Zaphod Beeblebrox choking out the Frogstar Prisoner Relations Officer.

[Talin]

I am going to stand by what I said earlier

"Now as far as Reversion goes, you revert when you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hp or DIE. Now then that creates an interesting spot to interpret rules, seeing as a Druid can't maintain its Wildshape while unconscious, it clearly wouldn't be able to now being dead either. This creates three scnerios.

Unconscious: The Druid reverts back to its base form and remains unconscious due to Status effects being carried over from Shapeshift.

Drop to 0 Hp: The Druid Reverts and continues to take any left over damage from before if applicable.

Dies: The Druid reverts back to its base form due to being unconscious on account of being Dead.

Seeing as the Druid reverts for being knocked out the conclusion we draw is that the Druid HAS to be conscious to be Wildshaped which he clearly can not be if he is Dead..


That all being said, the same can be said for Polymorphed individuals when put into the same scenerio, if a Wizard Polymorphs the tartget into a Sheep and then PWKs the Sheep, the target is dead and reverts back to its base form and remains Dead."

I will not argue that if the Wildshape reverts from damage that the Druid will still be alive, but if the Druid is KILLED while in its Wildshape by an effect that doesn't do damage, that he is dead and can no longer hold his Wildshape because he is dead.

When a creature is targeted by PWK if they have less than 100 HP they die irrevocably, and as far as I can tell the ONLY time a question pops up is whether or not reversion from Wildshape or Polymorph would bring the target back alive, to which I say NO if they were targeted by PWK and had less than 100 HP they are dead no way around it. That is how PWK works, that is how it has ALWAYS worked that is the way it will CONTINUE to work unless WotC says otherwise. PWK is an instant kill spell that kills whatever it is pointed at so long as the target has 100 hp or less.

NOW until WotC specifically says otherwise, THAT is what I say PWK does vs. Wildshape/Polymorph. And until WotC SPECIFICALLY says otherwise I am going to stick by it.

PWK Kills the Druid, it kills the Victim of Polymorph I REST MY CASE!!!!



SAomeone felt the need for clarification, so I will add it for the sake of completeness.



SirPantsPants @pj28doyl_sir
@wotc_rodney @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls ...And does death not revert the Druid back to form with its original HP?

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls It reverts physically, sure, but the druid is dead...

SirPantsPants ‏@pj28doyl_sir
@wotc_rodney @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Additionally, given your ruling, does polymorph + PWK = instakill

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Sure, if you polymorph something into a creature that has fewer than 100 hp

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@pj28doyl_sir @calebrus44 @JeremyECrawford @mikemearls Also that takes 2 actions, and requires 2 spells and a failed save

calebrus44 ‏@calebrus44
@wotc_rodney @pj28doyl_sir We had a heated debate on our hands regarding WildShape reversion HP, so thank you for clearing it up for us.

Rodney Thompson ‏@wotc_rodney
@calebrus44 @pj28doyl_sir The important thing is that dead is dead.



Well there you go I rest my Case and then we hear from WotC.........So then I guess it doesnt matter what we interpret fact is DEAD!

[MunkeeGamer]

I find the official answer to be woefully inadequate. I'm sure they answered off the cuff. If they were exposed to the arguments posed in this thread, they would likely reconsider.

The only way I could accept this now "official" interpretation is to completely remove the reversion feature. I'm inclined to say that if this is the official ruling then there's no need to make a point of reverting back to your original hp at all. You get killed as a bear in combat, dead is dead, like they said. Your bones are broken, your organs ruptured from combat. You revert back, having been killed as the bear and now your caster form is dead. If PWK would keep you dead then so would combat damage. I can't see the relevant difference. Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

[MadBear]

Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

really not sure why you think those should be the only 2 options.... I think the ruling makes perfect sense, and is in line with what the rules said anyway.

[Fwiffo86]

I find the official answer to be woefully inadequate. I'm sure they answered off the cuff. If they were exposed to the arguments posed in this thread, they would likely reconsider.

The only way I could accept this now "official" interpretation is to completely remove the reversion feature. I'm inclined to say that if this is the official ruling then there's no need to make a point of reverting back to your original hp at all. You get killed as a bear in combat, dead is dead, like they said. Your bones are broken, your organs ruptured from combat. You revert back, having been killed as the bear and now your caster form is dead. If PWK would keep you dead then so would combat damage. I can't see the relevant difference. Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

I suppose you could view it as the heart just stopped working. No damage. No reason other than "magic". Which is what PWK does anyway. Just kills. No damage. Death does not require damage. I think this is where you hang-up stems from.

[MunkeeGamer]

really not sure why you think those should be the only 2 options.... I think the ruling makes perfect sense, and is in line with what the rules said anyway.

Which is fine for your table. I just don't think I would give druids access to the reversion given that understanding. Remember, dead is dead. They've been killed in combat, then they're dead. Period.

[Justin Sane]

I find the official answer to be woefully inadequate. I'm sure they answered off the cuff. If they were exposed to the arguments posed in this thread, they would likely reconsider.

The only way I could accept this now "official" interpretation is to completely remove the reversion feature. I'm inclined to say that if this is the official ruling then there's no need to make a point of reverting back to your original hp at all. You get killed as a bear in combat, dead is dead, like they said. Your bones are broken, your organs ruptured from combat. You revert back, having been killed as the bear and now your caster form is dead. If PWK would keep you dead then so would combat damage. I can't see the relevant difference. Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

Does that apply only to Wild Shape, or to all Polymorph effects? 'Cause if that's the case, I really want to play a summoner at your table :smallamused:


Yes, I turned him into a housecat then fried him. Payback's a bitch, huh?

[MadBear]

Which is fine for your table. I just don't think I would give druids access to the reversion given that understanding. Remember, dead is dead. They've been killed in combat, then they're dead. Period.

you're right dead is dead. period.

and the dead bear reverts to a dead druid. no hang up, no problem. I just don't understand why you wouldn't do the reversion. Put another way, I'm not sure what you're house rule is fixing by doing that.

[DanyBallon]

I find the official answer to be woefully inadequate. I'm sure they answered off the cuff. If they were exposed to the arguments posed in this thread, they would likely reconsider.

The only way I could accept this now "official" interpretation is to completely remove the reversion feature. I'm inclined to say that if this is the official ruling then there's no need to make a point of reverting back to your original hp at all. You get killed as a bear in combat, dead is dead, like they said. Your bones are broken, your organs ruptured from combat. You revert back, having been killed as the bear and now your caster form is dead. If PWK would keep you dead then so would combat damage. I can't see the relevant difference. Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

Just to understand, let's forget all the druid reversion stuff and all for a moment. How do you apply a PWK against a creature that have less than 100 hp. Let's say mister peasant #1 with an impressing 2hp!!! The local evil lord, who is a powerful spell caster, feeling the threat that this lowly rabble rouser is to the order of it's kingdom decide to make an example of him and cast one of is most potent spell, PWK on him. The miserable peasant, being way under 100 hp, is killed instantly. Now, PWK don't deal any damage. So is the peasant still alive since he still have 2hp (no damage dealt remember) or is he dead, as the spell intend to?
In my opinion, the peasant, while still having a full 2hp, is still very dead from the spell.

I'm asking, because I don't see how a dead druid cannot revert to its natural form and still be dead is so unbelievable for you. We see it all the time in movies (especially the old ones and/or cheap ones :D ) Reverting, only means that the druid revert to its natural body, if dealt damage that would kill its shape-shifted form, or if he fall unconscious, or if he dies. In the case that the shape-shifted form is slain via damage, the excess damage is applied to the druid natural form hit points.

The reason they added the revert to natural form hp if dealt damage, is to prevent tripping on a rock from killing you. A 9th level spell killing you outright is totally justifiable, randomly casting the spell at passing animal hoping to hit a druid in shape-shifted from is more questionable, as is shape shifting in a fight against a powerful spell caster... Polymorphing someone then PWK him is a neat and effective combo, but requires a lot of resources, so it's fine by me.

[Laurefindel]

The reason they added the revert to natural form hp if dealt damage, is to prevent tripping on a rock from killing you. A 9th level spell killing you outright is totally justifiable

What gets to me in this is the lack of coherency in design philosophy.

On one hand, damage carry-over without killing the druid by massive damage (which should happen if the druid only had X hp), leading to believe that the druid retains its own hp, only, the wild shape is dispelled after taking X number of damage.

On the other hand, the druid is affected by status effect solely based on the hp of its form, not of its own.

I don't refute the rules, the are pretty clear by RaW and confirmed by designers.

Personally, I don't have issues with PWK killing a character with less than 100 hp outright. I don't even have issues with PWK killing a character with 200 hp that took a good beating before the spell was cast. However, I do have an issue with PWK killing a fresh, unarmed character with 200 hp right off the bat on the first round of combat, because he/she happened to use one of its class feature :(

[DanyBallon]

Personally, I don't have issues with PWK killing a character with less than 100 hp outright. I don't even have issues with PWK killing a character with 200 hp that took a good beating before the spell was cast. However, I do have an issue with PWK killing a fresh, unarmed character with 200 hp right off the bat on the first round of combat, because he/she happened to use one of its class feature :(

Like I said, if you are going to fight a powerful caster and still decide to shapeshift in a creature that is definitely less resistant to damage than your natural form, that's your problem, you are aware of the risks of doing so. On the other end, I would be a real bad dm if I metagame with my caster that prior to combat the animal over there must be a druid, lets zip it with PWK just in case. Unless the druid choose to shapeshift in an animal that just don't belong there, like a polar bear in the savanah, etc.

As for massive damage, the way I see it, is that it insta kill you if the damage would bring you to a negative number exceeding your total hit point, but since the shapeshift rules specifically states, that once the shape-shifted from reach 0 hp you revert to your original form with your current hp, then apply all exceeding damage, you just don't get into the negative zone. Unless your natural form don't have much hit point either, then in this case it could be possible that the exceeding damage is been treated as massive damage as well. ie.: you're a 2nd level druid with 16 hp and are shape-shifted in a frog (1 hp), some nasty goblin pick you up and for fun throw you from a 60 feet cliff, when you splatter on the ground, you're really unlucky and suffer from the maximum 36 damage, your frog form, would be dealt 1 damage, then you revert to your original form, and the 35 remaining damage bring you to -19 which is more negative hit point than you max hit point. Now you can say that you are insta killed :P If you would have been just a little bit luckier and only suffered 32 damage from the fall, you would have end up at -15, not enough to kill you outright and starting to roll your checks for stabilizing.

[Laurefindel]

As for massive damage, the way I see it, is that it insta kill you if the damage would bring you to a negative number exceeding your total hit point, but since the shapeshift rules specifically states, that once the shape-shifted from reach 0 hp you revert to your original form with your current hp, then apply all exceeding damage, you just don't get into the negative zone.

That's exactly how the rules explain it, and I can understand the reasoning; It wouldn't be much an ability if if 2 points of damage caused instant death!

Only, it doesn't mesh well with with the fact that status effects are based on hp form's hp. For damage, there a druid behind the animal shape so to speak. But with those spells, there isn't.

But I'm willing to accept a certain mysticism that doesn't "make sense" and that the druid themselves probably don't quite understand. You are right in saying that druids would be aware of this and would take appropriate care. That reality is part of the game's world; druids will have to work with it.

Now I'm curious to see what kind of countermeasures the game offers, and what it will offer over the course of the years to come.

[gameogre]

It's not like Power Word death is the only way to be killed without having your hit points gone through.

Any Druid would be a idiot to use this class feature now. There are tons and tons of ways that you can be killed now with this class feature that you couldn't without it.

[BurgerBeast]

Fwiffo86:


“Scenario - If you have a giant dead body, and your players hit it once? does it suddenly disintegrate because it has no hit points? Is that your interpretation? Or do they have to hit it several times, inflicting damage with each hit, in order to separate the pieces? I understand what you are getting at. My point is that dead bodies have hit points, just like doors, and walls, and every other inanimate object that players may want to smash.”

Look, this explanation might seem fine and dandy to you, but it isn’t without its flaws. Let’s assume you’re correct and the dead body has hit points. How do you explain the fact that a level 10 fighter’s dead corpse has roughly ten times the hit points as the exact same body did when said fighter was level 1? The short answer is: hit points aren’t that concrete.

If my players tell me they hit a dead body with their sword, I can tell you what I wouldn’t ever do: make them roll. I’d ask them where they hit it and describe the effect. For example: you carve a chunk of flesh out of the flank of the corpse. If the players want to cut it up into pieces, I’d say “after about thirty minutes of hacking and slicing, you finish and you have a pile of corpsy pieces.”


“I bring this up simply to point out that the druid NEVER hits zero hit points from PWK. He becomes a corpse with HP equal to his total upon reversion, a mechanic used simply to determine how much damage the "inanimate dead body" has against repeated damage.”

This is totally unfounded. I’m not saying it’s false, but there’s no good reason for me to accept it.


If something were to essentially cure death, it would say so.

It doesn’t cure death, in my view. For lack of a better description, it interrupts or overrides a death effect.


based on that conclusion how do you adjudicate vorpal then? the druid is in wild shape with full health and takes a nat 20 vorpal hit, and for the sake of argument damage is rolled but it is min damage i.e. not enough to one shot under other circumstances.

so the druid reverts. does it still have a head? sure it reverts back with its prior HP, but headlessness is a whole different matter.

First, I want to be clear that if we’re talking about how I personally would adjudicate this scenario, it’s entirely irrelevant because I would rule that PW:K kills the druid. My position is that this is not RAW though.

But rather than avoid the question, I would say the vorpal kills the druid outright. If you’re asking me what my interpretation of RAW is, however, my answer is I don’t know. I would rule that the head is severed, resulting in death, resulting in zero HP and triggering reversion, which then causes the druid to return to pre-wild-shape HP and consequently back to life. I think I would rule that the druid is returned to life, but his head is off, which then causes him to die. I would have to put some thought into this, because of some other considerations that were presented in this thread, particularly those of pwykersotz.


Please site where you are obtaining this information. I would like to view it for myself. I don't recall anywhere saying that reversion restores dead characters.

If it did, all you would have to do is polymorph a dead body and cancel the spell to return a character to life.

The claim is not that reversion restores characters to life. The claim is that it returns characters to the same amount of HP they had before they morphed. In the case of the dead character, this is zero. So no, this wouldn’t have the effect you claim it would.

Talin:


Well there you go I rest my Case and then we hear from WotC.........So then I guess it doesnt matter what we interpret fact is DEAD!

Oddly enough this doesn’t prove your point. My stance has been that the druid should die, and that I suspected that RAI he dies, but that RAW he lives. The twitter comments contradict the RAW, in my view. I'm glad they do. But to me this does't mean that the druid dies according to RAW. To me this means the twitter comments have added a new rule.

Any way, I’ve tried to stay out of the comments that are based on the consequences of the reversion and their perceived effects on other aspects of the game rules, or on the essentially invented explanations of posters that then lead to all forms of inconsistency and irrelevant debate. I’m claiming, as I always have, that RAW, whether they make sense or not, say that when a dead wild-shaped druid reverts, he returns to some positive number of hit points and that I personally understand this to mean the druid is then alive. I'm not happy about it but that's not relevant.

[deusflac]

The claim is not that reversion restores characters to life. The claim is that it returns characters to the same amount of HP they had before they morphed. In the case of the dead character, this is zero. So no, this wouldn’t have the effect you claim it would.



but thats exactly what the claim is. those who, for lack of a better word, is pro "wild shape is meat armor" are claiming that once zapped by PWK a druid who is in wild shape form would die, the wild shape form would end and whats left is a living, conscious druid in caster form. which simply isnt the case.

[Rowan Wolf]

At this point I think the title of this thread no longer speak of the druid but the thread itself. I just felt like sharing that.

[BurgerBeast]

but thats exactly what the claim is. those who, for lack of a better word, is pro "wild shape is meat armor" are claiming that once zapped by PWK a druid who is in wild shape form would die, the wild shape form would end and whats left is a living, conscious druid in caster form. which simply isnt the case.

Whether someone thinks of wild shape as meat armour, or as the druid himself, or believes D&D characters have souls, or whatever, is irrelevant. The rules say PW:K causes the wild shaped druid to die. The rules also say that when a wild-shaped druid dies, he reverts. The rules also say that when a wild-shaped druid reverts, he then has the same HP he had at the time he wild-shaped.

To me it's just a trigger. If you die while wild-shaped, you revert to your base form with the same HP you had at the time of wild-shaping.

In regard to the proposed restorative power of wild-shape: A relevant example was previously given: if polymorph is cast on a dead character, and then dispelled, the character does not become alive because reversion doesn't restore life. What it does do is return the character to the same HP he/she had before the morph. So the dead creature is not restored to life. That's not what reversion does.

There are examples where the restoration of life is a direct consequence of the return to pre-existing HP, and so yes, the result in those cases can be described (inaccurately, I would say) as restoring life, but this is a consequence of its function, not the function itself.

[Fwiffo86]

Fwiffo86:
The short answer is: hit points aren’t that concrete.


Hit points are not relevant to death effects. Nor do they override death effects. This is where you are having problems reconciling this issue. A death effect is named such because it overrides the hp damage mechanic entirely. Thus, it is possible to suffer a death effect and kill a character that would otherwise be able to take a considerable damage pounding. As I said upthread, its sort of like a perfectly healthy person dying because their heart stopped. Essentially the death effect just stopped their heart. It has nothing to do with how undamaged, tired, or unlucky (all alternate ways of thinking about hp) the character is.



It doesn’t cure death, in my view. For lack of a better description, it interrupts or overrides a death effect.


As I have explained above, this is actually backwards. Death effects override HP. They wouldn't be called death effects if they didn't. They in fact, would have zero effect on characters at all. The Death effect does not transition the HP total to zero. It transitions the character from alive to dead. Hp are completely irrelevant in this transition. Damage taken to 0 is not dead either, it is unconscious and dying. You roll to avoid that very thing according to the rules (death checks). Death effects ignore this part of the dying process as well. You do not have changes to Hp totals, and make no death checks. The character just transitions from alive, to dead.



First, I want to be clear that if we’re talking about how I personally would adjudicate this scenario, it’s entirely irrelevant because I would rule that PW:K kills the druid. My position is that this is not RAW though.


Now that I understand what you are talking about (I think and have attempted to address above) I believe that your interpretation of Death effects is causing your misunderstanding of RAW. Nothing more.



The claim is not that reversion restores characters to life. The claim is that it returns characters to the same amount of HP they had before they morphed. In the case of the dead character, this is zero. So no, this wouldn’t have the effect you claim it would.


As I have explained above, this is not how death effects work. This is a house rule. My point is here that regardless of how you handle it, or describe it, or even think of it, HP is not changed by the death effect. PWK only does a HP total check. It inflicts no damage. Death effects do not inflict damage. If they did, they would be damage effects instead. Because it is NOT a damage affect, it cannot change Hp totals in either direction.

It seems self explanatory that a death effect overrides the damage mechanic, but I can see where in this situation (druid) it became obfuscated. And to a certain extent, I can sympathize. But as long as you think dead characters can have only 0 hp, or that death effects change hp to zero, you will be experiencing this issue in more than just the druid scenario.

[Lonely Tylenol]

This is what I was trying to get at. Having HP means you are conscious and mobile. The basic reason for this feature is something straightforward, I think. You fight and fight. You drop to 0hp, <something happens to beast form> then you revert back to your original form with all your original HP.

The severance of an astral cord (PHB 215),
Power Word: Kill (PHB 266),
Stage 6 of exhaustion (PHB 291),
Old age (which can be expedited by the Horrifying Visage feature of a Ghost, MM 147, or attuning to an artifact, DMG 221),
Being separated from an Intellect Devourer (MM 191),
Being drained by a Shadow (MM 269),
Having your life consumed by a Will-o'-Wisp (MM 301),
Being devoured by a Bag of Devouring (DMG 153),
Being struck by a critical hit from the Hammer of Thunderbolts (if giant) (DMG 173),
Failing your save against a Talisman of Pure Good (if evil) or Talisman of Ultimate Evil (if good) (DMG 207),
Being beheaded by a Vorpal Sword (DMG 209),
Attuning to an artifact with Major Detrimental Property 81-85 on the d100 chart (DMG 221),
Removing either the Hand or Eye of Vecna (DMG 224), and
Failing to attune to the Wand of Orcus (DMG 227).

A (non-inclusive?) list of the things that simply kill you, without affecting your hit point value in any way, or requiring that you have zero hit points (current or maximum) in order to die.

I made this list to illustrate that the dichotomy of "if you have more than 0 HP, you are alive; else you die" is false.

I realize that this post was quite a bit back, but I felt that this contribution is probably meaningful at any stage in the thread. I'll go back through and read the rest now.

EDIT: Since nobody has replied since my last post, I'll just affix anything else to this post:

EDIT II: Harrumph. People responded while I was editing the post. I'll shuffle it down for chronology's sake.

[grub]

I don't get why you would use such a powerful spell to kill something that squishy? I enjoy overkill as much as the next guy but that is ridiculous.
The way I see it you could kill it in 2 turns anyways. If you want to waste a spell slot on something that has that few hitpoints it is your choice. I would think that most people would just kill the animal form with a non-caster, and then if it turns out to be a Druid let the Wizard kill it later in the round with PWK.

Unless we're meta-gaming which I do my best not to do, because I don't enjoy it.

[Shining Wrath]

For all those arguing the wildshaped form is not still the Druid - if a Wildshaped Druid uses spell slots, do you think those return when the Druid reverts?

They don't?

OK, then the druid is there, in a different shape. HP damage has special rules. The body is different, the mind & associated stuff is the same.

Powerful fey enchants wildshaped druid? Reverted druid is still enchanted.

Lost head? This I'm not sure about, because changing your shape is part of the wildshape magic and conservation of mass does not apply.

Death? If death is a purely physical event, then you can argue that reverting restores life. But by RAW, in this game, creatures have souls. Magic Jar is a thing, Resurrection is a thing, even Eberron has the Plane of Dohlurr where souls go after death. I can't see a good RAW argument that death in D&D is a purely physical effect.

Which means that a death effect, including PW:K, affects the mind. It goes away with the soul to its not-eternal reward.

[Lonely Tylenol]

Vorpal Sword would chop off the Bear's head, the bear dies, the druid reverts to normal self with his head on and whatever HP's...

The Bear in the PWK example is not an imaginary creature it is the only creature in this example that you are targeting with PWK. The Bear dies, just as if it had been reduced to 0 HP, which is what happens to every creature that is NOT a player character at 0 HP's.

When the bear creature dies, the druid character reverts to his druid creature self!

etc. etc.

I find this interpretation endlessly amusing. If the druid's unchanged body is simply occupying a meat suit, what happens when your meat suit is smaller than your druid form, such as a Tiefling (which is Medium-sized) wild shaping into a Raven (which is Tiny-sized)? Is the result something like this monstrosity (http://youtu.be/8ZDgjjDnWLM?t=4m34s)?

What happens if the entire body is destroyed? Say, for example, your druid, which is wild shaped into an Ape (a Wild Shaped form with manual dexterity and opposable thumbs), reaches into a Bag of Devouring, is pulled in, and is not pulled out before the beginning of its next turn. The body is devoured. Does the druid appear outside of the bag with a puzzled expression on his face, or perhaps a terrified one, covered in extradimensional saliva?

What happens if the mind is destroyed, but not the body? Say, for example, your druid (which dumped INT, as most druid guides will likely suggest) fails their Intelligence save and subsequent contest with an Intellect Devourer while in Dire Wolf form. In a panic, the party paladin casts Protection From Evil and Good on the body, driving the Intellect Devourer from the druid, which causes the druid, still in Dire Wolf form, to die in 1 round (as its brain has been magically consumed). Does the druid leap out of his meat suit like a birthday cake at the party and yell, "surprise! The creature devoured the Dire Wolf's intelligence all along!" or what?

EDIT: Allow me to offer a third possible explanation for what happens when you Wild Shape, and for the purpose of argument, I will refer to this as the "Astral Cord analogy". Astral Projection, you see, works in a very specific way, which involves not two, but three metaphysical components of the person:

1) The physical body, upon which the spell was cast, which remains at its starting location;
2) The astral body, which departs from the physical body and enters the Astral Plane; and
3) The astral cord which connects the two.

While you are projecting, things that happen to one body do not happen to the other. If you take damage in astral form while traversing the planes, the damage does not translate to your physical form, and similarly, if you take damage in physical form by an attacker who has found your unconscious body, your astral form does not suffer. The two are, however, inexorably tied together by the astral cord; if enough damage happens to one of the two bodies to reduce it to 0 hp (again, independently of the other), the spell ends and you are "pulled" from your astral body and back to your physical one, with all (or none) of the damage your physical form has endured, and none of the damage your astral form endured (which is to say, if you are brought to 0 astrally, you are at whatever HP you had before physically, but if you are brought to 0 physically, you do not retain whatever hit point value you had astrally). While both of these bodies contain what could be considered your own full strength, the most tenuous link is itself the Astral Cord, which is fragile, but can only be severed if specific conditions are met.

The relationship of the druid and animal forms while in Wild Shape share a similar relationship as the astral and physical bodies, in that you can think of it as not two, but three overlapping mechanical components:

1) The druid's personhood, which "exists" within the animal's body as a component part of the animal and replaces the animal sentience;
2) The animal's physical body, which occupies the physical space of whatever animal form you take, but does not have the animal's sentience; and
3) The natural bond which exists between them, and allows them to cohabit.

Now, there are some key differences here that must be addressed, such as the fact that the link is one-directional in the absence of a human body (the "cord" can only be "pulled" in one direction--animal reversion to human form--and not the other) and the two cohabit one body as overlapping component parts rather than two bodies with no overlap, but the analogy is extended more or less in the same way: while you are in wild shape, your physical characteristics and any class features pertaining to your base form are in "suspended animation" while they are in this form you have manifested, but you don't cease to exist; your consciousness has remained intact as you have melded into a new form. The strength of this natural bond you have formed between druidic consciousness and animal body is only as strong as the animal form (and is represented in the animal form's hp), which is relatively vulnerable, and as a consequence of this, when this animal form is reduced to 0 hp, you are "pulled" back into your human form without breaking the bond in order to preserve your life (essentially, you allow your concentration to break). Because of this, even though the animal itself is fairly weak, transforming into the animal does not make you physically weaker, overall, than the druidic form alone; in fact, any physical difference in strength is additive because you are your druidic form plus any contributions you make in animal form.

The same could not be said, however, for the natural bond between druidic consciousness and the animal form you transform into, which is intangible, and can only be destroyed under very specific conditions. Since wild shaping does not make you physically weaker, you cannot simply crush the animal to destroy the natural bond; doing so only "pulls" the druid back into their natural form. Death effects, however, are capable of severing the natural bond directly, which kills the druid entirely regardless of the hit points of either form if successful. Since the strength of the wild shape bond is reflected in the animal's hit points--something that is traditionally a strength, as is the relative indestructibility of the astral form you take during Astral Projection as long as the cord is intact--the druid has one critical weakness in that its natural bond itself can be severed, killing all metaphysical parts regardless of the well-being of the other.

There; an explanation of how wild shape mechanics work that are basically rules-consistent, but doesn't require a complete suspension of immersion.


I find the official answer to be woefully inadequate. I'm sure they answered off the cuff. If they were exposed to the arguments posed in this thread, they would likely reconsider.

The only way I could accept this now "official" interpretation is to completely remove the reversion feature. I'm inclined to say that if this is the official ruling then there's no need to make a point of reverting back to your original hp at all. You get killed as a bear in combat, dead is dead, like they said. Your bones are broken, your organs ruptured from combat. You revert back, having been killed as the bear and now your caster form is dead. If PWK would keep you dead then so would combat damage. I can't see the relevant difference. Either you revert into a healthy caster or you die.

I want you to please point out where, in the book, it says to me that losing your hit points in combat constitutes death.

[BurgerBeast]

Hit points are not relevant to death effects. Nor do they override death effects. This is where you are having problems reconciling this issue.

But this isn't where my problems are. I say this because I 100% agree that "Hit points are not relevant to death effects. Nor do they override death effects." This is why it does't much matter to me if you think the a non-druid victim of PW:K is dead with 70HP or dead with zero HP. Dead is dead.

There are, to my mind, two points on which we disagree. The first is whether or not going from dead to a set number of HP (if and when this is ever possible, and we both agree that regular healing magic cannot do this) implies that you are alive. I think it does and you think it doesn't. While this is somewhat interesting to me, and I'd like to pursue it, it's not relevant here.


A death effect is named such because it overrides the hp damage mechanic entirely. Thus, it is possible to suffer a death effect and kill a character that would otherwise be able to take a considerable damage pounding.

I 100% agree.


As I said upthread, its sort of like a perfectly healthy person dying because their heart stopped. Essentially the death effect just stopped their heart. It has nothing to do with how undamaged, tired, or unlucky (all alternate ways of thinking about hp) the character is.

I won't address this analogy because I agree wholeheartedly in the spirit of what you've said above and so it doesn't really matter if I accept this analogy. I agree with what is written above.


As I have explained above, this is actually backwards. Death effects override HP. They wouldn't be called death effects if they didn't. They in fact, would have zero effect on characters at all. The Death effect does not transition the HP total to zero. It transitions the character from alive to dead. Hp are completely irrelevant in this transition. Damage taken to 0 is not dead either, it is unconscious and dying. You roll to avoid that very thing according to the rules (death checks). Death effects ignore this part of the dying process as well. You do not have changes to Hp totals, and make no death checks. The character just transitions from alive, to dead.

I agree 100% with all but the first sentence.


Now that I understand what you are talking about (I think and have attempted to address above) I believe that your interpretation of Death effects is causing your misunderstanding of RAW. Nothing more.

Well, I think I have shown that I don't misunderstand the death effect. So this can't be the case.

I think that where we disagree is on what reversion means. I think reversion simply "switches" (for lack of a better word) the druid back to his original form in the condition it was before it wild-shaped (and I would personally add that conditions applied to the wild-shape also apply - but this isn't particularly relevant and may lead to other problems).

For example, if the bear was paralyzed and then reverted, in my view, the reverted human druid is now paralyzed. But, and this is an important but, if the paralyzation was an identified trigger that popped the druid out of wild-shape, I would say that the trigger popped the druid out of wild shape and he is not now paralyzed. My reason is that the paralyzation caused the reversion - that was its effect in this specific case. Other conditions would still apply (such as poisoned or what have you). The same for the "he dies" effect. It seems to me that, RAW, the death of the wild-shaped druid triggers the pop. That's its effect in this case.


As I have explained above, this is not how death effects work. This is a house rule. My point is here that regardless of how you handle it, or describe it, or even think of it, HP is not changed by the death effect. PWK only does a HP total check. It inflicts no damage. Death effects do not inflict damage. If they did, they would be damage effects instead. Because it is NOT a damage affect, it cannot change Hp totals in either direction.

100% agree with all of that.


It seems self explanatory that a death effect overrides the damage mechanic, but I can see where in this situation (druid) it became obfuscated. And to a certain extent, I can sympathize. But as long as you think dead characters can have only 0 hp, or that death effects change hp to zero, you will be experiencing this issue in more than just the druid scenario.

Well I do think death sets hp to zero, and it hasn't raised a problem, ever. Even in this case, I don't think it does.

I do think I need to clear something up though. People are misinterpreting what I've claimed. I want to use a different spell combination as an analogy to clarify.

Analogy: Bless is a spell that grants a bonus to particular rolls. That's what it does. That's it's function. But when Bless is cast in an area where Bane is in effect, that's not what it does. It cancels or dispels Bane. Ruling that Bless dispels Bane does not imply that I think Bless has the power to dispel magic, and that therefore Bless can be used to dispel anything. Bless has a particular function. In the presence of Bane, which is a specific situation, that function is different.

Now the cases:

Case 1 (the analogy does't really apply here): A wild-shaped druid is PW:K'd. The druid then dies. The druid then reverts. The druid then returns to life because it says so under the rules of wild shape. In this case reversion [edit: heals restores life to] the druid.

I do not think this. I think this is stupid. But even if I did think this it would not mean that I think reversion has restorative power in general. It would mean that I think reversion has restorative power in one case. But I don't think this.

Case 2: A wild-shaped druid is the victim of PW:K. PW:K causes the druid to die. Death generally means that you are dead (as Bless generally means you get a bonus to attacks), however in the specific case of a wild-shaped druid (as with Bless in the particular case of the presence of Bane), death does not function that way, death reverts the wild-shaped druid (as Bless dispels Bane).

This is what I think. I hope this clarifies my stance. [edit: and this is the second point on which I think we disagree - on what my stance is] Also, I would like to thank you for your continued engagement. I have quite enjoyed this discussion.

[edit: I suppose, if I was better at summarizing, I would have saved myself and all of you some time and just wrote this: In the specific case of a wild-shaped druid, death effects do not necessarily cause the druid to die. Instead they effectively dispel the wild-shape by triggering reversion. *The reason I say not necessarily is because of things like drowning and decapitation. A drowned wild-shaped druid is very likely to drown after reverting, and a decapitated wild-shaped druid will be immediately subjected to death upon reverting because a decapitated head causes death.]

[visitor]

Excellent, very clear summary.

[Fwiffo86]

Analogy: Bless is a spell that grants a bonus to particular rolls. That's what it does. That's it's function. But when Bless is cast in an area where Bane is in effect, that's not what it does. It cancels or dispels Bane. Ruling that Bless dispels Bane does not imply that I think Bless has the power to dispel magic, and that therefore Bless can be used to dispel anything. Bless has a particular function. In the presence of Bane, which is a specific situation, that function is different.


There is nothing in the bless or bane spell that says they dispel each other. Because they don't. You are house ruling the counter/dispel effect here because neither spell says or specifically indicates that they cancel each other. Both spells remain in effect. Mechanically, if someone is blessed and baned, they add a d4 and subtract another d4 to their rolls. Expressed as: (1d20 + 1d4 - 1d4) you roll three dice to be clear.



[edit: I suppose, if I was better at summarizing, I would have saved myself and all of you some time and just wrote this: In the specific case of a wild-shaped druid, death effects do not necessarily cause the druid to die. Instead they effectively dispel the wild-shape by triggering reversion. *The reason I say not necessarily is because of things like drowning and decapitation. A drowned wild-shaped druid is very likely to drown after reverting, and a decapitated wild-shaped druid will be immediately subjected to death upon reverting because a decapitated head causes death.]

How do you account for the removal of the dead condition? You are welcome btw. I can see that I was misinterpreting you. I will use a visual representation of why I think this is incorrect.

Druid: items in brackets for all purposes are considered "conditions/buffs/etc"
[Wildshape]

Add death effect from PWK
[Wildshape] [Death]

Reversion is triggered due to dying. This ends the wildshape condition. Reversion does not remove any condition other than wildshape. It does not restore(remove/cure) any other conditions other than wildshape.

--Normal stats-- [Death]

Druid end condition
--Normal stats-- [Death]

[BurgerBeast]

There is nothing in the bless or bane spell that says they dispel each other. Because they don't. You are house ruling the counter/dispel effect here because neither spell says or specifically indicates that they cancel each other. Both spells remain in effect. Mechanically, if someone is blessed and baned, they add a d4 and subtract another d4 to their rolls. Expressed as: (1d20 + 1d4 - 1d4) you roll three dice to be clear.

I stand corrected on this.

3.5 handled such spells as Bless/Bane, Consecrate/Desecrate, and Haste/Slow in the way I described. You're welcome to say that this doesn't matter because it's a different edition, but I think it illustrates a relevant example of how an effect can function differently in specific circumstances regardless of system or version. I also think that this is apparently similar to how wild-shape is described in 5e because of the particular way in which the relevant rules are written. My knowledge of 5e isn't thorough enough to know if similar examples exist in 5e or where to point if they do.


How do you account for the removal of the dead condition? You are welcome btw. I can see that I was misinterpreting you. I will use a visual representation of why I think this is incorrect.

Druid: items in brackets for all purposes are considered "conditions/buffs/etc"
[Wildshape]

Add death effect from PWK
[Wildshape] [Death]

Reversion is triggered due to dying. This ends the wildshape condition. Reversion does not remove any condition other than wildshape. It does not restore(remove/cure) any other conditions other than wildshape.

--Normal stats-- [Death]

Druid end condition
--Normal stats-- [Death]

Well, you misrepresented me again. I don't need to account for removal of the dead condition because I don't think the dead condition ever applies by RAW. I think that PW:K triggers reversion instead of the dead condition. In the same way that the 3.5e spell interaction played out.

If a WS druid is knocked unconscious, does it become an unconscious human druid or a conscious human druid? I suppose you would say unconscious? And I would say conscious. At least we're consistent.

As a hypothetical, if under the rules for reversion it said that reversion is triggered by paralysis, would you rule that a druid who was paralyzed in WS would revert and be paralyzed in human form? Again I suppose you'd say yes and I'd say no.

At this point I'd say I've exhausted my ability to bring anything new to the conversation. I will say again that I'm relieved to know that by [edit: RAI the intended rules] the druid dies.

[edit: I don't know if RAI is supposed to mean rules as intended or rules as interpreted]

[goto124]

If a human druid, wildshaped into a bear, gets vorpaled, I imagine that the headless bear corpse turns to a headless human corpse, while the detached bear head reverts to a detached human head. This would be fun to describe :D

[Fwiffo86]

[edit: I don't know if RAI is supposed to mean rules as intended or rules as interpreted]

I always read it as Read As Intended.

[BurgerBeast]

If a human druid, wildshaped into a bear, gets vorpaled, I imagine that the headless bear corpse turns to a headless human corpse, while the detached bear head reverts to a detached human head. This would be fun to describe :D

Me too, but with an important distinction. I imagine that the (momentarily still living) headless bear corpse turns into a (momentarily) alive headless human and the dead bear head turns into a (momentarily) alive human head that is alive for a fleeting moment and then dead as a result of decapitation.

Same end result and also fun to describe. Philosophically speaking, it might not even matter because the PC in question might be too preoccupied with his impending death to even notice if he reverts. All right, now to send the druid PC in my party up against a clan of vorpal-weilding goblins… if I ever get a 5e campaign going.

[holygroundj]

So, let's talk about conditions in general.

If there is a condition having an effect on a non-wildshaped druid, and then the druid wildshapes, does the condition affect the druid in wildshape form?

For example: exhaustion, blind, prone, etc?

Second question: is dead a condition?

Third question: If conditions are sustained through wildshaping, AND dead is a condition, then wouldn't it go both ways?

I am simply curious because it seems to me like the condition of being dead overides any HP you might have. While I understand the idea that wildshape is a type of energy that protects the caster, but I don't see that in the rules.

And honestly, I think the reverting when dead is for things that affect the druid in death. So, like spells/rezzing, or in the case of NPCs, looting.

But honestly, The question remains: If unconscious is a condition--and it is-- and it causes a druid to revert, is the reverted druid now conscious? If not, why is the dead wildshaped druid now not dead? Is it because death isn't listed as a condition in the back of the book?

[Fwiffo86]

But honestly, The question remains: If unconscious is a condition--and it is-- and it causes a druid to revert, is the reverted druid now conscious?

Nothing in the description of wildshape specifically says that it removes poison, unconsciousness, etc. Therefore, these conditions are not removed by reversion.



If not, why is the dead wildshaped druid now not dead? Is it because death isn't listed as a condition in the back of the book?

The official ruling is the druid is dead. Death is not listed as a condition. I believe the reason to be is that everyone understands what death means. But if this helps, I will repost my definition of death as a condition. You have complete permission to use or not use as you see fit.

Death:
A dead character is unconscious (see unconscious)
A dead character cannot gain hit points (as from curative magic, healing checks, or temporary hit points).
A dead character cannot be restored to life unless targeted by magic that specifically restores life.

[goto124]

I believe the reason to be is that everyone understands what death means. But if this helps, I will repost my definition of death as a condition. You have complete permission to use or not use as you see fit.

Death:
A dead character is unconscious (see unconscious)
A dead character cannot gain hit points (as from curative magic, healing checks, or temporary hit points).
A dead character cannot be restored to life unless targeted by magic that specifically restores life.

I know a game where your spirit floats above your corpse upon death. Resurrection spell is required to bring you back to life, and the only thing you could do while dead was talk. So you can spend your 'dead time' whining on and on (ICly) about how that kobold was totally OP :smallbiggrin:

But as for what happens when a druid's WS dies... it could depend. If the druid's WS form is particulary vulnerable to damage, the druid might end up avoiding that form or risk almost certain death.

You could have situations where it doesn't matter, such as a bird-form druid forced into human about 200 feet above ground, but that's a different matter...

[Person_Man]

I think a lot of people are taking a very legalistic view of the rules on this. (Which makes perfect sense. This is a D&D forum after all). But my guess is that it was left intentionally vague so that DMs could just do whatever makes sense in the given situation. Death effect = death. Headless is dead. Other status conditions may or may not carry over depending on situation - mental ones probably do but physical ones probably don't.

Also, my players all know that my rulings are always a double edged sword. If I rule that X doesn't kill the Druid player if he is in Wildshape, then X does not kill the Druid NPC BBEG if he is in Wildshape, and there WILL be a Druid NPC BBEG, along with a small army of beasts and lower level Evil Druids under his control. This makes the players think twice about asking for favorable rulings outside of RAW.

[Myzz]

There was a recurring theme in this thread that bothered me and I couldn't put my finger on it. I think I finally did. (1)The assumption that PWK has always done what it does and will always continue to do so... and (2)the mass assumption that wildshape turns the druid's physical body into that of the beast he takes the shape of.

I'll addrss 2 first:

in 2e, Druid was a subset of the Priest Class. When a Druid wildshaped it healed his body for 10-60% (1d6 x10%) of his normal HPS upon shapechanging. So the Beast shape used the Druid's own HP pool, so did the spells shapechange and polymorph (wildshape actually being a limited form of shapechange self)

In 3.0 Druid became his own class, and wildshape became a limited form of Polymorph Self. The Druid's own HP pool was usedand upon assuming a wildshape he would be healed as if having rested for a day (HP only, no other curative effects)

In 3.5, wildshape remained pretty much the same as 3.0, but specifically added the phrase "If slain, the subject reverts to its original form, though it remains dead."

In 4.0 Druid was not a core class (I'm not sure if it was an alt class since the group I DM'd for gave up on 4.0 from the get go though they did try one session to amuse me.)

Now to address Point 1:

in 2e, PWK targeted 1 creature with 60 HP or fewer or 2 or more creatures of 10 HP or fewer and up to 120 HP max and killed them.

3.0, PWK targeted 1 creature with 100 HP or less or a 15 ft radius sphere, within the sphere it affected creatures with 20 or fewer HP starting with the lowest up to 200 HP total.

3.5, PWK targeted only 1 creature and killed it, those with 101 or more HPs were unaffected by the spell.

4.0, PWK does not exist in core books for players.

What does any of this have to do with anything in 5e? Purpose, Intent and Design!

PWK, has always been imo the weakest 9th level spell. Mostly because I could never shake its 2e ideology. PWK was a finishing move that targeted 1 creature that had already taken a beating and failed to recieve any healing, or usually it was used to wipe out a a large group of very low level creatures (minions). It effectively retained that purpose in 3.0, but lost that purpose in 3.5. In both editions it was nearly doublly as effective against a single target.

Wildshape and all shapechange mechanics have been linked within each edition using the same mechanic, including 5e. AND in each edition except 5e, the druid's own HP pool has been utilized for the HP of the beast. %e brings a new mechanic for shapechange and therefore performance of spells upon the new mechanic must be evaluated. I do not believe that has been done for death eath effects, regardless of the off the cuff tweet previously given.

In conclusion, PWK has never been able to one shot a fully healthy 20th level druid who wild shaped into a "lesser" form, nor do I believe that it is intended to in this edition.

For a better explanation, a 20th level druid with >100 HP has the VITALITY to resist a PWK even if in the form of a 1 HP creature. That vitality is expressed as the druid's own HP pool.

I will address the comments that misrepresented or misinterpretted what I stated earlier in a few moments.

[Fwiffo86]

How is 60 hp any different than 100 hp? or 10 hp? They are arbitrary numbers used to set the parameters of the spell. At no point has PWK ever done damage.

It

Just

Kills.

Not to mention the issue is death effects. PWK is just one example.

[Fwiffo86]

In conclusion, PWK has never been able to one shot a fully healthy 20th level druid who wild shaped into a "lesser" form, nor do I believe that it is intended to in this edition.


Can you explain why the druid alone is the only who gets to ignore this spell? Every other class is a viable target at level 17-20. All that is required is the hp total be 100 or less. Why does the druid get to ignore a level 9 spell using a level 2 class ability?

[Gwendol]

Can you explain why the druid alone is the only who gets to ignore this spell? Every other class is a viable target at level 17-20. All that is required is the hp total be 100 or less. Why does the druid get to ignore a level 9 spell using a level 2 class ability?

Probably because he's already dead... As this thread should have been X pages ago.

[Kornaki]

On one hand, damage carry-over without killing the druid by massive damage (which should happen if the druid only had X hp), leading to believe that the druid retains its own hp, only, the wild shape is dispelled after taking X number of damage.

It's not actually clear to me that the druid is immune to death by massive damage by the rules.

[GWJ_DanyBoy]

Probably because he's already dead... As this thread should have been X pages ago.

I am amazed to still see it at the top and nearly at double digit pages. From what I can tell the arguments haven't evolved since page 1.

[Myzz]

I have previously stated that I believe the rules imply the way the mechanism for all shapechanging is that a body is summoned and that the person is either forced into said body or voluntarily enters that body, and the person's original body is put in a temporary demi plane in stasis.

I Think the Meat Shield Idea looks the coolest, but is not the closest approximation of RAW. In regards to "how could a humanoid fit into that space?" It's magic... storage space for the druid within a body is WAY easier to explain that how his actual body is forced into a smaller form. Druid's mass X becomes Beast with mass X/100, or stretched into mass X*100.

Vorpal takes head off the beast... why does it have to be the druid's head? Maybe it was just his pinky...

Consider... A blind half elf druid assumes the shape of a bear, is the druid still blind? Not by RAW since he gains the sensory inputs of what he takes... So a druid does not need functioning eyes to actually see with his shape. Druid takes a form with multiple limbs? are those limbs useless because the druid does not have those limbs? If one of them is chopped off does the druid lose a limb of his own? How do you decide with of the limbs was the druid's actual limbs?

In one of the spalt books for 2e I think... Can't remember where exactly since I didn't play the character, but it was in a game I ran, that druid's could actually change their internal organ locations.

The argument that a 20th level druid should Know Better than approach BBEG that can cast PWK, is besides the point. BBEG with PWK probably does have access to Trueseeing, and probably has it permanently as a magic item (mine do). So BBEG, is out exploring because he has either heard through his contacts that Adventurers are looking for him (or Divined it). He sees druid scouting area as a local bird and PWK's the bird... Should the 20th level druid be dead? Nope!

Better example of how absurd this is. Mielikki, Goddess of Nature, visits her favorite druid circle and decides to fly through the forest with them to check it out. BBEG who happens to live nearby and has many frequent run ins with said druid circle, is travelling through the forest looking for fey to take home and torture/dissect, when he looks up on the sky and sees the Goddess in such a frail body... He PWK's her and she falls dead. Now BBEG goes about bragging about having killed a Goddess with one shot, and druids since they do not have revivify or resurrection in this edition can do nothing but take her body to an actual cleric...

Also reasons I think PWK is weakest 9th level spell:
1. criteria very specific
2. can be negated by a level 4 Cleric buff - Death Ward
3. can be reversed by a level 3 Cleric spell - Revify
4. can be reversed by using a level 14 transmuter ability - Revify from Transmuters stone
5. AND like all spells can be countered with a level 3 spell - Counterspell (works best by giving up a 9th level slot tho)

Only Positive is that PWK does not allow a saving throw.

I do appreciate Lonely Tylonel's attempt to create a mechanic, but 2 things i find wrong here TL, its way too long and its contradictory.


1) The druid's personhood, which "exists" within the animal's body as a component part of the animal and replaces the animal sentience;
2) The animal's physical body, which occupies the physical space of whatever animal form you take, but does not have the animal's sentience; and
3) The natural bond which exists between them, and allows them to cohabit.

Now, there are some key differences here that must be addressed, such as the fact that the link is one-directional in the absence of a human body (the "cord" can only be "pulled" in one direction--animal reversion to human form--and not the other) and the two cohabit one body as overlapping component parts rather than two bodies with no overlap, but the analogy is extended more or less in the same way: while you are in wild shape, your physical characteristics and any class features pertaining to your base form are in "suspended animation" while they are in this form you have manifested, but you don't cease to exist; your consciousness has remained intact as you have melded into a new form. The strength of this natural bond you have formed between druidic consciousness and animal body is only as strong as the animal form (and is represented in the animal form's hp), which is relatively vulnerable, and as a consequence of this, when this animal form is reduced to 0 hp, you are "pulled" back into your human form without breaking the bond in order to preserve your life (essentially, you allow your concentration to break). Because of this, even though the animal itself is fairly weak, transforming into the animal does not make you physically weaker, overall, than the druidic form alone; in fact, any physical difference in strength is additive because you are your druidic form plus any contributions you make in animal form.

Bold for the parts that I think contradict your stance on PWK and wildshape. The two cohabit one body implies that indeed there are 2 and NOT 1 body. Hence 2 targets not one, only one of which can be targeted and the other inaccessible as a target. And the last part implies that for the PWK you would add druid HP and form HP to determine if PWK would apply. AND I would agree that is fair, more in line with shapechange in general, but not RAW.

Again from my preceding post, the druid's vitality has the force to resist PWK, this vitality is represented not by the creature's HP but by the Druid's normal HP.

I personally think the departure from how the shapechanging mechanic functioned was unnecessary and a poor choice. The only reason I see is that polymorph was being used a full healing. Wizard gets in trouble health wise, but no cleric is around, so he polymorphs to regain full HP, might use a spell like ability of the creature (to turn invis say) then reverts back to keep blasting at full HP. SO the mechanic was altered but not carefully torn apart to see where/how this could be abused.

So shapechanging has gone from making creatures stronger, to weaker at higher levels while giving a substantial boost at lower levels. I do not believe this was the intent.

[Dalebert]

I only just discovered this thread and I apologize in advance for only getting halfway through so I may repeat someone's argument.


However, I do believe this situation should be opened to interpretation. Otherwise, a 20th level druid at full health and wild shaping into a hawk would be killed after receiving 2 points of damage due to massive damage insta-death rule.

Saying a druid in any beast form can just soak a 9th level spell and lose nothing but one of his wild shapes is making wild shape too powerful.

Saying PWK or an attack that does twice the beast's hp in one swing insta-kills both animal and druid is overly gimping the druid.

I suggest a reasonable compromise for balance reasons. If the druid's hp before shifting were greater than 100, then the PWK was only strong enough to kill his animal form (if <= 100) so he simply reverts. If the druid's hp before shifting were no more than 100, then the PWK was powerful enough to kill both so the druid dies. If the beast has > 100, then there's no effect. This is contrary to the RAW, but the RAW makes the druid too powerful IMHO.


What makes more sense?

Druids can ignore death effects due to wildshape?

Power Word Kill is an empty 9th level spell that couldn't kill a housefly?

Neither. That's why a compromise makes the most sense from a balance perspective.


The druid never gets to -14, it never even gets to -1. The animal form takes damage equal to its health (triggering reversion) and then the druid reverts, taking the 14 remaining damage.

There are no negative hp in 5e, period. The end. This reflects 3.x thinking. I believe the wording about instakill blows says doing at least twice the remaining hp of a creature kills it. That means a druid in hawk form dies when it takes 2 hp dmg. Fortunately, they don't intend for the druid to die when the creature dies. That's why they say the druid reverts back to his form WITH his original hp intact, i.e. still alive. This is consistent with him being still asleep from a Sleep spell. Sleep makes him unconcious which triggers the shift back and he's still asleep. PWK makes him dead which triggers the shift back with his original hp, i.e. alive. In either case, he turns back WITH his original hp, i.e. alive, just as he would from the animal dying by any other means like an instakill double-hp attack.

That's a reasonable interpretation by RAW, but I think it's too powerful. That's why I suggest the compromise for balance reasons. Otherwise the druid is either too powerful or too weak/vulnerable.

[Kornaki]

I Think the Meat Shield Idea looks the coolest, but is not the closest approximation of RAW. In regards to "how could a humanoid fit into that space?" It's magic... storage space for the druid within a body is WAY easier to explain that how his actual body is forced into a smaller form. Druid's mass X becomes Beast with mass X/100, or stretched into mass X*100.

What. What. You realize there is a second level spell called Enlarge that changes the mass by a factor of eight as it changes the size of a creature? How is this any different? It's not.


The argument that a 20th level druid should Know Better than approach BBEG that can cast PWK, is besides the point. BBEG with PWK probably does have access to Trueseeing, and probably has it permanently as a magic item (mine do). So BBEG, is out exploring because he has either heard through his contacts that Adventurers are looking for him (or Divined it). He sees druid scouting area as a local bird and PWK's the bird... Should the 20th level druid be dead? Nope!

Same argument could be made for a level 20 wizard. He's got invisibility, and is using stealth (proficiency gained from his background), to scout out the area - trueseeing, power word kill, dead wizard. How is that fair? It's not, and the problem lies with the DM.

[Laurefindel]

It's not actually clear to me that the druid is immune to death by massive damage by the rules.

If you take the rules quite literally, the paragraph on wild shape states that the druid takes damage until its beast shape drops to 0 hp, then revert, then takes the rest of the damage. Since the druid reverts between " dropping to 0 hp" and "excess damage carries over to your normal form", the beast shape never gets into minus hp and therefore cannot dies by massive damage (unless of course, if the excess damage also exceeds the druid hp below 0).

In other words, the wild shape doesn't have time to die by massive damage before the druid reverts to its normal form. I find this rather cheesy and stretching believability even by D&D standards, but it makes the druid survivable.

I wish they had formulated something like "You conserve your own hit points and hit dice. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, take more damage than the assumed beast's hit point total, or die. Or something like "you gain beast hit points as temporary hit points until you revert"

However, this would have meant that the druid, even in beast shape, would not be affected by a Power Word Kill as long as the druid had 100 hp and apparently, that wasn't the intent of the designers.

[Laurefindel]

There are no negative hp in 5e, period.

True, but you still need to track excess damage once a character is brought to 0 hp, and "10 damage below 0" and "-10 hp" are similar enough for the purpose of this conversation.

[Fwiffo86]

Snipped for space saving purposes by Fwiffo86

Your error is your belief in how wildshape works. No more need be said.

Clarification:
There is not two bodies. There is only one body - the body of the druid. It is changed to resemble but not is the animal form as is evidenced by the druid keeping their mental stats, proficiencies, etc. There is not a summoned animal that the druid essence drives around like a car. It is not a bubble of animal essence that protects the druid essence from death effect spells.

One druid. One body. One essence.