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Obak
2015-01-07, 07:09 PM
We are about to set out on a campaign to the underdark with Menzoberranzan as our final destination. I have proposed to my fellow players that we should set ourselves up a the new rulera of the city. My comrades seem amused at the idea and our DM somewhat terrified.
I plan on playing a male drow (no female or nobles allowed)
Question is, how would one go about to accomplice this monumental task? What would you do?

Red Fel
2015-01-07, 07:49 PM
We are about to set out on a campaign to the underdark with Menzoberranzan as our final destination. I have proposed to my fellow players that we should set ourselves up a the new rulera of the city. My comrades seem amused at the idea and our DM somewhat terrified.
I plan on playing a male drow (no female or nobles allowed)
Question is, how would one go about to accomplice this monumental task? What would you do?

I think you're asking the wrong question. It's not how you would take over Menzo (to which the answer is "With insurmountable difficulty,") but why you would.

Imagine, for a moment, that you found an isolated, sandy beach, populated by nothing but small albino crabs. Suppose you made your way to a dune at the center of the beach, and announced loudly, "Behold, for I am now lord of this beach! I am King of the Sand Crabs!"

What, exactly, have you accomplished? Do you think the crabs actually care?

Now imagine that the crabs are intelligent. And hateful. And have lived all of their lives planning to overthrow one ruler or another. And unlike you, they don't sleep. Tell me again why you want that?

That's what you're doing. You're taking over a city populated entirely by people who have lived for the sole purpose of overthrowing the people above them - such as yourself. A population that loathes you, despises who and what you are and everything you represent. They will never follow your edicts, never respect your orders or your wishes. They will attempt to murder you every hour of every day - your servants, your ministers of state, the nobles and the peasantry, every last one will want you extremely dead.

Even assuming you succeeded in "taking over" Menzo, whatever that means, how exactly do you plan to rule a population composed entirely of people who wish to murder you as soon and as painfully as possible? Why would you even want to?

Admiral Squish
2015-01-07, 07:56 PM
I think the bigger question would be 'why would you want to?'.
The leader of the drow city is always, always, ALWAYS gonna have a target on their back, just begging for a knife. Lolth's shenanigans make sure that's not about to change any time soon. The entire culture is self-destructive and brutally classist and sexist. To become the leader of the city while being a common male would be practically impossible. This isn't a question of alignment, where it would make sense for an evil character to strive for this. It's just a matter of efficiency. The system in place is horribly inefficient. A leader can't get anything done if he's spending half his energy making sure nobody's trying to put a knife between his ribs. Any sensible ruler, good or evil, would do whatever necessary to destroy it and make something more efficient in its place.

I suspect you'd fare better doing a clean-slate wipe. Kill the entire power structure of the city, every noble and every leader. Destroy everything relating to Lolth, cut the goddess off from the only group stupid enough to put up with her insanity and let her starve for lack of prayer. Establish yourself as a 'liberator of the common people' (whether you're actually good or not), and take over, swiftly using your own powers and your powerful allies to establish a new order that would actually allow you to remain in control for a useful length of time, and afford you a measure of security.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-07, 08:03 PM
I think the answer to why you would want to rule a drow city is simple: Use their bodies to make a troupe of dancing skeletons! Seriously, you're all male commoners. You'd have to be pretty dumb to think that Lolth is a good way to go. You also have favored class: wizard in many editions. I'd say go necromancer and figure out a way to teach a skeleton how to make drinks for you and your buddies. Or just you if that is how you want to go, just make sure you're the the necromancer in that case.

Mr Beer
2015-01-07, 09:51 PM
I suspect you'd fare better doing a clean-slate wipe. Kill the entire power structure of the city, every noble and every leader. Destroy everything relating to Lolth, cut the goddess off from the only group stupid enough to put up with her insanity and let her starve for lack of prayer. Establish yourself as a 'liberator of the common people' (whether you're actually good or not), and take over, swiftly using your own powers and your powerful allies to establish a new order that would actually allow you to remain in control for a useful length of time, and afford you a measure of security.

I agree that's likely the best way to do it. Certainly killing all the priestesses and razing the temple(s) would be almost essential. I would suggest against just sealing the temple up, bad things always get back in when you do that.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-07, 09:59 PM
And remember: It is better to have razed then to have never razed at all if too much of the loot was going to melt your face off.

Obak
2015-01-08, 06:47 AM
Why conquer the city of lier, assassins and thiefs? Because it is there!
Joke aside, on a personal level I have allways had a love/hate relationship with the Drow. The premises of amoral, scheeming, nasty elves that live in caves and figth illithids and graydwarves seems to hold so much promise of hours of fun play that is brutally crushed under the utter idiocy of their society! When I think of Drow I want something more like Rome or Spartacus rather then 1984 or Stalins soviet. Drow society is the poster definition of chaotic stupid, and I HATE chaotic stupd! And so does my character...
My character is a political fanatic and a nationaist, like many other fanatics he love his people but hate their society and believes the old regieme must be torn down and destroyed so that hs kind kan enter into a new golden age and reclaim their rightful place in history.

You have all touched upon the issue and Squish said it best:

I suspect you'd fare better doing a clean-slate wipe. Kill the entire power structure of the city, every noble and every leader. Destroy everything relating to Lolth, cut the goddess off from the only group stupid enough to put up with her insanity and let her starve for lack of prayer. Establish yourself as a 'liberator of the common people' (whether you're actually good or not), and take over, swiftly using your own powers and your powerful allies to establish a new order that would actually allow you to remain in control for a useful length of time, and afford you a measure of security.

Question is, how?

The Cult of Lolth must be destroyed, there is no other option. As of right now they are however far too strong fora direct assault. Since there are no clear chalengers my bet is that they must first be weakend from within before a decisive deathblow can be dealt!

The nobel houses are of course next in line (but don't tell them that) but whether to destroy them or just cull them remains to be see, I don't want to repeat Stalins misstake.

What resources do we have to accomplish this?
Slaves and lower classes: Menzo have a great slave population that ofcourse will hve its uses, but to rely on them for a coup d'etat is out of the question. We need what little legitimacy there is to be gained from the general Drow population.

Middle class: The whole system is set up to keep these guys down, so I am fairly sure we can rely on them once we are in power but I doubt they would pick up arms as long as the cult of Lolth still holds power.

Warriors and Wizards: Ah, the fertile ground for ANY successful revolution, displeased young men with lots of free time and no future. This seems to be the logical base of recruitment.

Nobles: These guys have the money and the resources but also all the stupid bagage that comes with ruling in menzo, plus their leadership is in cahoots with Lolth. On the upside there should be more then enough displeased and ambitious heirs that could be usefull in tearing down the Lolthites power base.

Lolths cult: The enemy on top of the yramid that must be destroyed before any real change can take place, before ANY change can take place! I have a few ideas how to deal with them but nothing rock solid.

kardar233
2015-01-08, 12:50 PM
I would strongly suggest reading at least the first and second books of the War of the Spider Queen series (Dissolution and Insurrection), which should give you a sense of how to go about doing this, and also why you probably shouldn't.

(Un)Inspired
2015-01-08, 01:16 PM
I plan on playing a male drow (no female or nobles allowed)


This made me laugh. Your character is like the Dnd equivalent of Calvin with his Get Rid Of Slimey girlS (G.R.O.S.S.) club.

Grim Portent
2015-01-08, 01:43 PM
To conquer Menzoberran would be very hard. The backstabby nature of the Drow makes them unreliable allies and rather ineffective servants/slaves. How can you rely on an army that will betray you at the first opportunity?

To rule the Drow there are only really two options I can see.

The first is to rule them from the shadows, a clandestine cabal manipulating them to your own ends. This wouldn't be easy and would likely fail to achieve your desired result of making the drow great and powerful.

The second is to crush them with overwhelming power. Tear Menzoberran apart, render it into dust and rubble, cull it's people into a shadow of their former numbers and rip their gods from their hearts and minds. Make them beg to be reforged into a weapon of war, lethal and deadly so that they will never know such desolation again. Then fashion them into a totalitarian kingdom of torment and order where all power flows from their immortal god-ruler (insert yourself into this position, immortality isn't hard to get depending on system).

To do so would require a lot of power, first and foremost it would need the armies of most of the other Underdark races. They're mostly chaff to be thrown into the traps and fortifications of Menzoberran, but a few are more than a match for Drow in direct battle. Mind Flayers and Shadow Dragons are the two most prominent ones to come to mind.

Mind Flayers have occasional trade deals with the Drow so it would be wise to provide a great incentive before approaching them for an alliance. They adore the taste of elf and human brains, and simply cherish the chance to eat a fey's brain. Suitable payment is easy with Mind Flayers, though they can't be trusted any more than the Drow can.

Shadow Dragons are less fleshed out as dragons go, but would probably be motivated by wealth and sadism like most evil dragons.

Outside of the Underdark factions I think two useful sources of allies would be the undead and the devils.

The undead are an easy source of sturdy but clumsy minions who can bolster your forces where needed. Not much else to say about them really.

The devils are one of the most powerful forces in the cosmos and would almost certainly jump at the chance to overthrow the demonic spider goddess. Phrase any alliance in terms of souls offered, demons thwarted and freedoms restricted and they'd have a hard time refusing an invitation to join in such a venture.

Obak
2015-01-08, 04:35 PM
I would not set out on such a venture without some gurantees, namely our DM let slip that he estimated us to reach level 70 (!) at the end of the campaign. If that is not a level high enough to atempta grab at Menzoberranzan, I don't know what is.
I plan to make my second class a cloistered cleric of Chronepsis, the dragon deity of fate, and one of the guys in the group plan to play a necromancer.
Making allies with devils to figth the spider queen would make sense. Hardly a problem free alliance but one can not be too picky under circumstances like this.
Crushing the Drow is out of the question from the standpoint of my character, his goal is to set his people free, not to become the tyrant ruler of a wasteland filled with huddled slaves.

My hope is by weakening the the cult of Lolth enough and eventually destroy them will set the nobel huses on each others throats, opening up the oportunity for a coup to install a secular military dicatorship that could force a monoply of violence upon the city.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 04:42 PM
So...Tyranny is bad, but military dictatorship is fine? I'm a little confused here.

Obak
2015-01-08, 04:48 PM
So...Tyranny is bad, but military dictatorship is fine? I'm a little confused here.

MY brand of tyrany!
My character is not a saint, he is at heart a Drow. What makes his brand of tyrany preferable would be the abolishment of Lolth worship and instating law and order to replace might makes rigth.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 04:49 PM
Are you sure you're not already worshiping a devil? I think a demon vs. devil extension of the bloodwar would be interesting, but I'm just plain biased.

Solaris
2015-01-08, 04:54 PM
I can't help but feel this plan could use more Mindrape.

Say, rig up a Mindrape trap (or a chain of them) that you force-march your captives through which brainwashes them into your loyal minions as they go through it. Alignment change to Lawful, loyalty switched to you, Lolth replaced with the deity of your choice, even switch the dominant gender in society by rewriting their minds.

Admiral Squish
2015-01-08, 05:42 PM
The HOW to do it is a very difficult question.
Your goal seems to be do destroy/abolish Lolth's worship, and then take over. But honestly, I don't see it working that simply. If you want to take over leadership as a male, common-born drow, a 'neat and tidy' takeover is not an option. You can't just outlaw the cult, Lolth's rewards are just too good for those out of power not to take advantage of them, especially if the spider queen starts to get desperate. You have to DESTROY the cult. Every temple. Every altar. Every secret congregation. Every recording of her rites and rituals, every cleric, ever true believer, every monument, motif, icon, image... EVERYTHING related to her and her worship. To do that in an orderly fashion would be impractical. Lolth is a goddess of chaos, and thrives in change. Any gradual, orderly attempt to destroy her would give her far, far too much time to maneuver and make deals and slither around your efforts and strike back from where you least expect. No, this is not a gradual, orderly change. This calls for overwhelming force and a LOT of blood. There's simply no way around it.

I see two options.
One, you can wipe the slate and rebuild. Destroy the city. Rally all the armies you can and get them to march on Menzo. The armies of the underdark will be difficult to convince, but they should be easier to convince than your other options. Maybe you could whip the armies of the surface elves or the dwarves into a crusading mood, but it would be a real challenge. You could seek supernatural help, gating in an army of demons or devils to wage war on the spider queen's minions. You'll also need help from inside, probably Bregan D'aerthe, to hold the gates open and shut down their defenses. Perhaps soften the city up with some sort of disaster beforehand, such as an enormous earthquake, or a cataclymsic flood. You're a wizard, you can make it happen. Get creative. Up to this point, you'll be able to keep your hands clean, only indirectly attacking the city through the hordes you unleash upon it. Afterwards, you'll have to get your hands dirty. You'll need to actively control the mop-up, and make sure that EVERY last remnant of the old system has been destroyed. You'll have to personally ensure every last trace of Lolth is gone from the city, from the people, and be EXTREMELY thorough. People tend to cling to old beliefs in times of disaster, and since lolth isn't afraid of getting hands-on to reward her faithful, and will likely be desperate, you're going to have a very difficult task. You have to present an alternative that's more effective, either yourself or some carefully-selected supernatural entity to lead the drow in a new direction.
Personally, I happen to think scorpions are cool. They have a lot in common with spiders, so you might be able to reuse some stuff, but they're much more durable, resilient, and direct, which are some aspects you could market that would likely appeal to a shattered Menzo. Check out eberron and Vulkoor.

The second is more direct, and yet more difficult. You have to kill Lolth. We're talking planar campaign of genocide against lolth and all her minions. If you kill the goddess, the power structure of Menzo will be much, much easier to dismantle, since they've pretty much put all their proverbial eggs in that proverbial basket. The clerics will be unable to keep their authority without divine power, and, by extension, the houses will undergo a VERY sudden, dramatic change in leadership, making the city itself much more vulnerable to an eternal power coming in to establish control. Killing Lolth will be hard. She's a tough goddess, very resilient, very adaptable. The strategy here would be very similar to that described for destroying the city, but has the advantage of sparing more drow lives. You would have to marshal a planar army to go toe-to-toe with the spider queen. Demons would be the first choice, since there are more of them and it would deny her allies, but if you could somehow get demons and devils to gang up on her, that would be ideal. You might be able to arrange some sort of good-aligned planar allies if you could offer something valuable enough to convince them to risk a crusade into enemy territory. Of course, depending on how stupid-good the outsiders are, they might jump at the chance to take out such a powerful adversary. You'd have to go full-on extermination, make sure that absolutely nothing escaped that could rebuild her power base. You would pretty much HAVE to be epic for this plan to work. It'd be a lot slower to set in motion, from your perspective, but it opens the door for a neat-er, less fratricidal takeover of the city... provided other entities don't take advantage of the chaos to invade the city or step in as the new drow god.

Obak
2015-01-08, 09:12 PM
Question is hw would we go about weakening the cult of Lolth until we are ready to srike at Lolth herself?
I imagine making Drow nature work against itself is a key part of any plan to weaken the cult from wihin.
Fueling resources and intelligence into the right hands, namely amitious and desperate priestessess could cause a lot of internal strife and upheaval, mainly I am just looking at the maximum number of dead and fractioning within the cult.
Sparking conflict between the noble houses and in the ensuing chaos assassinating as many key priestesses would also seem as a good idea, but I want to attack the cults legitimacy, their wealth and their hold over the peoples hearts and minds.
Engineering hunger riots by poisoning wells and livestock, destroying warehouses and trade, perhaps encouraging eilistrae worhippers?
Anything to weaken the cult or make it apear weak.

Solaris
2015-01-08, 09:16 PM
... Knowing Lolth, she'd probably feed on the subterfuge and the backstabbing in some twisted way.

Red Fel
2015-01-08, 09:26 PM
Question is hw would we go about weakening the cult of Lolth until we are ready to srike at Lolth herself?
I imagine making Drow nature work against itself is a key part of any plan to weaken the cult from wihin.
Fueling resources and intelligence into the right hands, namely amitious and desperate priestessess could cause a lot of internal strife and upheaval, mainly I am just looking at the maximum number of dead and fractioning within the cult.
Sparking conflict between the noble houses and in the ensuing chaos assassinating as many key priestesses would also seem as a good idea, but I want to attack the cults legitimacy, their wealth and their hold over the peoples hearts and minds.
Engineering hunger riots by poisoning wells and livestock, destroying warehouses and trade, perhaps encouraging eilistrae worhippers?
Anything to weaken the cult or make it apear weak.

Drow priestesses are already ambitious and desperate, causing strife and upheaval, and generally killing one another. Noble houses are already in conflict, there is already chaos ensuing.

The maximum number of dead within the cult is "all," as in "all Drow in Menzoberranzan." Because the precious few Drow who don't worship Lolth are either (1) dead, (2) in exile, or (3) in hiding. None of the above will be of use to you. Creating dissent from within won't work, because it already exists - the entire system inexplicably thrives on it. There is no rational reason why such a society shouldn't have imploded centuries ago, and yet it persists in that form. Contributing to the chaos won't make a dent, because there's so much of it already. Taking out the leadership won't make a dent, because it will simply create a power vacuum that Drow have been raised from birth to attempt to fill. Even putting everyone in Menzo to the sword won't be enough, because Menzo is the megapolis in the Underdark, but not the only Drow settlement, and once other Drow become aware of the leadership vacuum, you'll have to contend with them as well.

You can't make the Church of Lolth appear weak, because it isn't. The strongest, cruelest, and most ambitious rise to the top of that chain, or are devoured. If you make them appear weak, they will simply be replaced, and new people will take on the mantle of High Priestess in order to wear it as a symbol of strength. The cultists may be vulnerable, but the Church itself will endure.

There is no end. There is no rest. The chaos will continue, forever, eternal, until the last Lolth-worshiping Drow has been scoured from the Underdark.

Obak
2015-01-08, 09:38 PM
Your terms are acceptable

Envyus
2015-01-08, 10:06 PM
Problem is 99% of the Drow in the city faithfully worship Lolth even if some are more faithful then others.

2nd killing leaders and and nobles won't fix anything. While their so city is horrible and holding them back Lolth made sure it was structured enough that it won't collapse in on itself.


Question is how would we go about weakening the cult of Lolth until we are ready to strike at Lolth herself?
I imagine making Drow nature work against itself is a key part of any plan to weaken the cult from within.

Drow nature working against itself is how it works right now. It's going to be hard to make it worse.


Fueling resources and intelligence into the right hands, namely amitious and desperate priestessess could cause a lot of internal strife and upheaval, mainly I am just looking at the maximum number of dead and fractioning within the cult.
Well the cult is the entire city. They are already fractioned as hell. If one them acted stupidly they would be wiped out with out a trace. Then another Drow would take their place and nothing will have changed.


Sparking conflict between the noble houses and in the ensuing chaos assassinating as many key priestesses would also seem as a good idea, but I want to attack the cults legitimacy, their wealth and their hold over the peoples hearts and minds.
Drow law is that if two noble houses get into a big fight the one that started it is wiped out by the other houses unless none of the other house remains to bring it up. Drow Houses won't go to war with each other unless they are sure they can win. Killing Priestesses won't solve anything as they will just be replaced by the one below them who was waiting for that to happen.



Engineering hunger riots by poisoning wells and livestock, destroying warehouses and trade, perhaps encouraging eilistrae worhippers?
The lesser drow are not going to care. A Drow learns from birth to look for poison and deceit and they would know that none of the Nobles or Priestesses would do something like this Doing stuff like this well just let the Drow know somethings up and they will try and to find out. Encouraging worship of Eilistraee is probably the stupidest thing you can do. Almost every Drow that you try to convert will just report to Nobles or Priestesses and they will wipe out the insurgents.


Anything to weaken the cult or make it appear weak.
It can't really be called a cult as it is an official religion and not a hidden sect. Every Drow is a member and every time somthing happens in the group a Drow will just use it as an excuse to grab power. A dead member just means a Drow that wanted them dead takes their place.

This is not even getting into the fact that The leadership of the Drow has many powerful and high level Figures and even they are willing to unite in a threat to their power. A powerful Drow like Gromph or a High Ranking Matron upon figuring out something is up. Can easily use powerful magic to learn what is wrong. Powerful Matrons and Priestess and Wizards won't even go down when killed and will likely be raised or have back ups to ensure they are brought back. (Gromph probably has 10 or so clones hidden away somewhere in case he dies)

You won't win a indirect assault. You would have to take over the city by force and wipe out the Priesthood and Noble family's. Even then the Drow can hold their own in a fight and would likely be ready for such an attack.

Admiral Squish
2015-01-08, 10:18 PM
Hmm... I hadn't considered other drow cities. That's going to be a serious problem.
On further consideration, even killing Lolth wouldn't be enough. The cult of Lolth and its followers created the problem, and they stoke the flames, but the problem is now ingrained in the culture. Every underdark drow is raised into a society that rewards cruelty and ambition and punishes generosity, trust, love, and kindness. Ultimately, you wouldn't be able to truly escape the chaos and madness of drow society unless you founded an entirely new society, free of such taint.

New plan: Start kidnapping babies. I mean infants, not toddlers. The fresher the better, to avoid taint. You'll have to raise them yourself, or get some very trustworthy drow rebels to do it while you continue your machinations, and you'll have to do it somewhere isolated. Maybe some construct assistants could help. Probably would be best to do it on a genesis-d demiplane with fast time, to raise them to adulthood as quickly as possible. Then, they start to breed independently. Once you establish a stable gene pool, continue to grow your numbers through baby-kidnapping whenever possible. Maybe the demiplane could become a sort of boarding school, where young drow go as toddlers for their childhood education, to emerge as functioning young adults in 1/10th the time. Once you have sufficient numbers, enact plan #2, then plan #1, but a little more... aggressive. We're aiming for full extermination this time. Use the chaos from the loss of Lolth to kill every drow in the underdark, and destroy every trace of Lolth and her teachings. The culture must be destroyed utterly. Then, when you're done... well, there's not much in the way of drow left after that, and those that are left are those you've carefully raised in your own image.
Will they be perfect? No. Will it be the same? No. But you've got a fledgling nation of drow and epic magic. You can make it work.

Solaris
2015-01-08, 10:32 PM
Problem is 99% of the Drow in the city faithfully worship Lolth even if some are more faithful then others.
Solution:

Rig up a Mindrape trap (or a chain of them) that you force-march your captives through which brainwashes them into your loyal minions as they go through it. Alignment change to Lawful, loyalty switched to you, Lolth replaced with the deity of your choice, even switch the dominant gender in society by rewriting their minds.

The spell can be delivered personally against the particularly important targets.

Red Fel
2015-01-08, 10:44 PM
New plan: Start kidnapping babies. I mean infants, not toddlers. The fresher the better, to avoid taint. You'll have to raise them yourself, or get some very trustworthy drow rebels to do it while you continue your machinations, and you'll have to do it somewhere isolated. Maybe some construct assistants could help. Probably would be best to do it on a genesis-d demiplane with fast time, to raise them to adulthood as quickly as possible. Then, they start to breed independently. Once you establish a stable gene pool, continue to grow your numbers through baby-kidnapping whenever possible. Maybe the demiplane could become a sort of boarding school, where young drow go as toddlers for their childhood education, to emerge as functioning young adults in 1/10th the time. Once you have sufficient numbers, enact plan #2, then plan #1, but a little more... aggressive. We're aiming for full extermination this time. Use the chaos from the loss of Lolth to kill every drow in the underdark, and destroy every trace of Lolth and her teachings. The culture must be destroyed utterly. Then, when you're done... well, there's not much in the way of drow left after that, and those that are left are those you've carefully raised in your own image.
Will they be perfect? No. Will it be the same? No. But you've got a fledgling nation of drow and epic magic. You can make it work.

This could work. You might even get the blessing of Eilistraee for such a task - important, because there's no way Lolth will let you get away with un-tainting her babies for long.

Ultimately, however, it addresses the question of how to make a non-scummy Drow society. It does not address the OP's question, which is how to conquer a preexisting scummy Drow society.

If you're in it for the long haul, this is an option. Create an entire non-scummy Drow society, with larger numbers, superior unity and tactics, and better firepower. Conquer Menzo by force. Replace the scummy Drow population with your new non-scummy generation.

The problem, ironically, will be one of your own creation - the non-scummy Drow will want to show mercy. They'll be Good, y'see, and they'll realize that Drow aren't inherently Evil. After all, they're the living proof. So they'll want to spare those who request mercy. Many of the dumber Drow will spit on this offer, and suffer either exile or death. Those who die are dead, but those who live know the ins and outs of Menzo, and they'll be back - and, as Alec Guinness once said, in greater numbers.

The smart ones, though? They'll ask for mercy. They'll beg, they'll plead, they'll be pitiful. And once spared, they will integrate into new Menzo society. They'll form a rotten core in the heart of this big new apple. And while enemies will attack from without, the most dangerous and capable will be destroying from within.

Or you could just, y'know, kill them all. I'm sure there's an artifact or high-level spell that boils down to "murder everything alive within the city limits." Pretty sure you could just do that, then sweep up the ashes and set up shop. Just make sure you import a ready (non-Drow) populace, though.

Because enemy's at the gates, chief.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 10:45 PM
I'm a little confused, when did good enter into the kidnapping baby plan? I thought the idea was to instill loyalty, not goodness into them.

goto124
2015-01-08, 10:49 PM
I'm a little confused, when did good enter into the kidnapping baby plan? I thought the idea was to instill loyalty, not goodness into them.

So... create a Lawful Evil society to overthrow the Chaotic Evil society?

Admiral Squish
2015-01-08, 11:02 PM
The baby-napping plan functions regardless of morality. (Now THAT'S a sentence I never thought I'd type...)
Overall, I'd try to avoid having your fledgling drow society involved in the genocide at all. You'd probably want to use third parties to destroy the drow, or do it on your own. If you can prevent any sort of contact between your drow and the old drow, that would be ideal. You'd want to be sure the genocide was complete with epic magic before pulling your non-chaotic-stupid drow population out of their secluded residence to take over the (completely de-lolthed) remains of the city/cities. Using local third parties would also help in the long run, allowing you to deplete their resources so as to give you more time to establish your new society before they can mount a threat against your settlers.

Kitten Champion
2015-01-08, 11:03 PM
I'd probably burn it down for the insurance money, which is the solution to most of life's problems.

However, accepting I'd want to rule such a place, I'd probably need help. I'd start bringing in an occupational army from the surface and the surrounding non-evil races, to get boots on the ground who are not in any way Drow with the promises of Underdark riches. Why not? You're the conqueror, so conquer. Kill the powerful, anyone who would pose too much of a threat in the long term, put up lights everywhere, step firmly on their necks until they're good and compliant. You can't wait for the old guard to die, not unless you want to be there for hundreds of years, so put them to the sword.

Secondly, is the systemic deprogramming. As Admiral Squish suggested, take the young away. Give them speech and etiquette lessons to turn them into proper English ladies and gentlemen.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 11:08 PM
So... create a Lawful Evil society to overthrow the Chaotic Evil society?

Why not? And at this rate, I have to ask: What is this dude's people? Drow only? Or would he be up for some hybridzation? I mean, meet a nice evil princess, maybe a priestess, (or prince/priest, children will just overthrow you anyway) romance her/him over a feast of succulent baby unicorn, encourage some intermingling and get a political alliance.

I really just want to see a male drow and a female duergar power couple.

Admiral Squish
2015-01-08, 11:21 PM
I'd probably burn it down for the insurance money, which is the solution to most of life's problems.

However, accepting I'd want to rule such a place, I'd probably need help. I'd start bringing in an occupational army from the surface and the surrounding non-evil races, to get boots on the ground who are not in any way Drow with the promises of Underdark riches. Why not? You're the conqueror, so conquer. Kill the powerful, anyone who would pose too much of a threat in the long term, put up lights everywhere, step firmly on their necks until they're good and compliant. You can't wait for the old guard to die, not unless you want to be there for hundreds of years, so put them to the sword.

Secondly, is the systemic deprogramming. As Admiral Squish suggested, take the young away. Give them speech and etiquette lessons to turn them into proper English ladies and gentlemen.

You know... It would be risky, taking power in Menzo for any length of time, but if you could hold it for a few years and grab all the babies made in the entire city for your descummification program, that would shorten the time frame for developing your replacement society. Once you had enough babies, all you'd have to do is disappear, let the infighting recommence, and then come back down the line with the full genocide plan.

Kitten Champion
2015-01-08, 11:32 PM
You know... It would be risky, taking power in Menzo for any length of time, but if you could hold it for a few years and grab all the babies made in the entire city for your descummification program, that would shorten the time frame for developing your replacement society. Once you had enough babies, all you'd have to do is disappear, let the infighting recommence, and then come back down the line with the full genocide plan.

See, with the occupational forces you don't need to do all the work. Seriously, how many on the surface or in the Underdark could see the benefit of a de-fanged and conquered Menzoberranzan? Especially the Elves. You don't need to do all the work and stay there for hundreds of years to keep a lid on the place. Set the ground work with taking down their major defences and inviting these - let's say goodly - forces to partake in the effort and ultimate reward. Kind of like the UN peacekeepers in some truly terrible places around the globe.

Delousing them of their fascist stupidity will take ages, even with an aggressive child-snatching policy, and speaking for myself as a theoretical PC in these circumstance -- I don't have that kind of time.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-08, 11:36 PM
Unless you are a necromancer and obtain immortality. At level 70...You should have immortality.

Admiral Squish
2015-01-08, 11:43 PM
See, with the occupational forces you don't need to do all the work. Seriously, how many on the surface or in the Underdark could see the benefit of a de-fanged and conquered Menzoberranzan? Especially the Elves. You don't need to do all the work and stay there for hundreds of years to keep a lid on the place. Set the ground work with taking down their major defences and inviting these - let's say goodly - forces to partake in the effort and ultimate reward. Kind of like the UN peacekeepers in some truly terrible places around the globe.

Delousing them of their fascist stupidity will take ages, even with an aggressive child-snatching policy, and speaking for myself as a theoretical PC in these circumstance -- I don't have that kind of time.

Ultimately, though, holding or controlling menzo isn't a feasible option. Even if you take control on the surface, the society's scummy underbelly will continue to thrive, and any new drow you bring in will be tainted to some degree by the continuing evil. Eventually, the drow will manage to skitter out from under the boot of the occupying force, and either start up again somewhere out of sight, take down the occupiers, or even corrupt them into their way of thinking. If you think you can REALLY control the drow, I'd like to point out, Menzo is never really under control, even when a legitimate and mostly-agreed-upon leader is in the lead. A conquerer, a male commoner, or worse, some other race? The drow would never really obey such an authority figure.

Yeah, it'd take a long time to replace the society. However, it could be done in 1/10h the original time with a fast-time demiplane, and regardless of the actual timeframe, I imagine that the vast majority of the plan would be taking place off-camera during time-skips.

Flickerdart
2015-01-08, 11:44 PM
Just gas the entire thing and turn it into a necropolis. Lolth won't be too happy but then she hardly ever is.

Envyus
2015-01-09, 01:35 AM
Just gas the entire thing and turn it into a necropolis. Lolth won't be too happy but then she hardly ever is.

The undead Drow then turn to Orcus thus starting the problem again but with undead. :)

Obak
2015-01-09, 12:48 PM
Please excuse me but I am going out on a rant here. Don't missunderstand me, I am not casting any blame on anyone in this thread. No my blame and ire goes out to every hackney writer that writes chaotic stupid fantasy!
A society can by no rhyme or reason be set up as that of the Drow, it makes no logical sense that ANY society even remotely like that of Menzoberranzan should stand firm for more than a few years, tops a few generations, before inner tension and outwards preassure would make it all collapse in on itself!
Drow borrow shamelessly from the worst parts of human behaviour, Stalinist soviet, Nazi germany, North Korea and Sparta to name a few but without recognising that these societies where A: Inherrently unstable and hinging on one person (Hitler, Stalin, The Kim dynasty) or B: Actually provided some minimum amount of benefit to the population! A society like the Drow that only serve to please the insane whims of a mad godess, where everyone is a thies, liar, assassin and trust, honor, law and integrity is unheard of could, in theory and with LOTS of tequila, work at least temporary. Mind controll, indoctrination and opression can only do so much, the problem with this is that ANYONE with even the smallest ammount of selfpreservation would understand that of all bad ways to govern a state, this is the absoluely worst!
Having a society like the Drow that is under such constat flux, where scheems and assasinations are so common and STILL having it adamantly resistant to change is just bad, bad writing and one of the few arguments that makes sense in favour of all-out thermonuclear war.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 01:28 PM
I think that's why so many people are in favor of the Scorched Earth policy. Might I ask what your party desires from taking over the city?

Obak
2015-01-09, 01:36 PM
We are going there anyway and we should be around level 70 when we are done with the campaign so its a fitting challenge.
I brought up the idea because I love the Drow, hate their fluff, thought it could be a good challenging goal in an intrigue centered game and watching ISIS rampage through the middle east I thought to myself "Heck, we could do that!".

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 01:44 PM
Then might I ask, what is it about the drow you love? Also, which setting of drow are we dealing with? Occurs to me that might make a bit of difference.

Red Fel
2015-01-09, 01:52 PM
We are going there anyway and we should be around level 70 when we are done with the campaign so its a fitting challenge.
I brought up the idea because I love the Drow, hate their fluff, thought it could be a good challenging goal in an intrigue centered game and watching ISIS rampage through the middle east I thought to myself "Heck, we could do that!".

I agree with your earlier rant, it's absurd just how Chaotic Stupid they are, it makes no sense, but that's what's written.

That said, Menzo is a fine setting for intrigue when you're part of the system. That's basically all they do there. That's not the case with you, however. There is no way for an outsider to engage in Drow intrigue.

Consider instead a more Lawful society, where people respect their leaders, even while plotting against them. There's a veneer of civility to it. The person on the throne can actually wield power, at least until he's deposed. Menzo is so absurd that if you somehow manage to take the throne, it won't even matter, because they'll simply ignore you until they've managed to kill you. In a Lawful society, you could at least enjoy your brief reign (if not the agonizing death that follows).

Heck, at your level, you'd actually be better off laying claim to a layer of the Abyss. Sure, there's backstabbing, corruption, and ambition, but they respect strength. The plane itself acknowledges (and corrupts) the powerful. You want CE? Go to the Abyss. Heck, take on Lolth in person. Maybe if you can replace her, you can rebuild Menzo in your image by becoming its patron deity. The Drow already know and fear Lolth. Let them know and fear you.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 01:54 PM
This sorta sounds like a situation where cross-dressing is appropriate. Find a female cleric coming into the city, kill her, dispose of the body and take her stuff and pretend you are her. Your DM banned females, not transvestism.

Envyus
2015-01-09, 05:58 PM
On why Drow Society does not collapse. That is due implied to be due to Lolth. She works some of her divine magic in some sort of way that makes it so that it does not destroy itself. Despite her love of chaos she also put some iron clad rules down in her kingdoms to further prevent self destruction. (Like the Two Drow Houses can't go to war or else the other Drow wipe out the house that started the fight if one of the attacked house is around to press charges.)

House Baenre main Matron Mother Yvonnel managed to master the system so well she was pretty much the Drow Queen of Menzoberranzan with everyone too afraid to challenge her power or oppose her. She had pretty much complete control of the city. However Lolth found that too orderly for her liking and so convinced Yvonnel to go to war with the surface were she ended up dying. Thus leaving a power gap and ensuring chaos for her to watch again.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 06:01 PM
...So someone was too skilled at the game she set up, so she got her killed pointlessly so a power gap was left? Which would imply that Menzo was weakened by the whole ordeal.

Envyus
2015-01-09, 07:14 PM
...So someone was too skilled at the game she set up, so she got her killed pointlessly so a power gap was left? Which would imply that Menzo was weakened by the whole ordeal.



After the Time of Troubles ended, Yvonnel led the army gathered from all houses in the city on her long-awaited conquest. Though they might have succeeded had drow not been drow, her plans where ruined by the valor of the defenders, dissent and desertion in her ranks, and by the unexpectedly successful headhunt by Drizzt's party. When Errtu's (A Balor that Lolth hired) appointed general opened a chest with a dead-magic gem inside, all magic failed and Matron Mother Yvonnel Baenre fell to the floor from her glowdisc all of her defensive magic dispelled and was killed by an enraged Bruenor Battlehammer. Lolth's plan all along was to bring about chaos and to rid herself of Matron Baenre as she told Errtu to give his general the dead magic gem.

They did drive out the Deep gnomes who were afraid to take on the drow army, but Lolth did not really care about results she just wanted to shake things up as she was tired of Yvonnel who had a strangle hold on the city for centuries.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-09, 07:29 PM
Presumably the drow lady was devout, clever, cunning and powerful. But instead of using that to further her plans, she...Kills her. This is not really convincing me that Lolth is a cunning antagonist. Bored maybe, but not cunning. I didn't even think the Deep Gnomes were all that much of a threat, to be honest.

Envyus
2015-01-09, 08:28 PM
Presumably the drow lady was devout, clever, cunning and powerful. But instead of using that to further her plans, she...Kills her. This is not really convincing me that Lolth is a cunning antagonist. Bored maybe, but not cunning. I didn't even think the Deep Gnomes were all that much of a threat, to be honest.

Well she now she has the over 2000 year old Drow Cleric in the Abyss loyally serving her. Yvonnel never learned her death was a result of her gods meddling.

Anyway Lolth never wants a single Drow with too much power in one of her cities. It makes the entire game for her less fun. Though when she has big plans she is willing to put power in a single chip.

Recently in the books Yvonnel's 3rd daughter and current Matron Mother mother of House Baenre was given upgrade by degree of Lolth. Quenthel despite her position of Matron Mother of the first ranking house of Menzobaranzen the lower houses of the city considered her weak and stupid. Her older brother Gromph openly talked down to her and she really could not do anything about it. He was planning on killing her and placing one of his lovers in her place but was given divine instructions by Lolth. A Mindflayer that served as Yvonnel advisor was entrusted to Gromph who brought Quenthel to it. (She also had a hidden room for him in the chamber were the leaders of the top 8 houses of Menzobaranzen meet so he could scan their minds with out being detected and get a good reading on what they were thinking and planning and, telepathically relaying it to Yvonnel.) The Mindflayer used Yvonnels brain (Or ate it I can't remember) to infuse Quenthel with the wisdom and experience of her mother. This new outlook allowed Quenthel to become much more dominant in the city and prepare for a war with the surface.

Also fun fact. Lolth's favored Servant is a Drow priestess named Eclavdra. Eclavdra is the epitome of the Drow and has betrayed and back stabbed Lolth multiple times for other gods and demon lords, and has even attempted to take her place. Lolth likes her tenacity and as a result Eclavdra now serves as Lolth's chief diplomat, as well as the supreme mortal ruler of her organization and religion. Lolth admires ambition above loyalty, and thus Eclavdra is one of the most favored denizens of the Abyss.

Obak
2015-01-09, 08:50 PM
Rule by Deus ex machina is as bad as plot armour :(

I like drows because they are exotic, the look bad ass, they live in an exotic enviorment and they are generally nasty and bereft of moral qualms and they eat pesky elves!

Envyus
2015-01-09, 08:56 PM
Rule by Deus ex machina is as bad as plot armour :(


As pointed out some of the Drow leaders are actually too good at the game and Lolth brings them down because she does not want that. Pretty much thanks to Lolth's guidance the Drow have a horrible society that is hard to topple and collapse due to it's rules and way it is run and but is also a chaotic and awful place that promotes ambition.

Obak
2015-01-10, 09:16 AM
Reasonably it would then stand that the highest strata of Drow society would be open to convert to other gods that would let them keep their power.

Obak
2015-01-10, 04:19 PM
I have read that the Drow have a parthenon, but recent editions seems to make Lolth their only god, was woship of other Drow gods ever allowed or have the Drow become monotheistic recently?

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-10, 04:26 PM
You might be reading FR material, which has other drow deities, such as Vhaeraun. Personally, I'd ask your DM about the setting to see if he is interested in other drow gods. Kiransalee might appeal to you for instance.

Coidzor
2015-01-10, 07:06 PM
We are about to set out on a campaign to the underdark with Menzoberranzan as our final destination. I have proposed to my fellow players that we should set ourselves up a the new rulera of the city. My comrades seem amused at the idea and our DM somewhat terrified.
I plan on playing a male drow (no female or nobles allowed)
Question is, how would one go about to accomplice this monumental task? What would you do?

Well, I'd start by gaining enough power to kill or forcibly convert the entire populace. Or even just become a veritable demigod and take everyone captive and rewrite their will and memories to serve me and my aims loyally.

If I wanted to take the city over by co-opting the power structures, I suppose I'd start by having various cats-paws or pseudonyms unify the various factions more coherently and then play them off one another until what was left was aligned with my interests while also making sure to remove the clergy of Lolth that would actually be placed to make everything come crumbling down.

So, y'know, suborn the matriarches of as many noble houses as you can, get the commoners in line with a mass conspiracy, seduce or negotiate their non-Drow allies away from them, and then create a crisis that weakens or destroys those you can't suborn where you or your main puppet are the only solution and use that to gain overt power.

Obak
2015-01-11, 09:15 AM
If I wanted to take the city over by co-opting the power structures, I suppose I'd start by having various cats-paws or pseudonyms unify the various factions more coherently and then play them off one another until what was left was aligned with my interests while also making sure to remove the clergy of Lolth that would actually be placed to make everything come crumbling down.

So, y'know, suborn the matriarches of as many noble houses as you can, get the commoners in line with a mass conspiracy, seduce or negotiate their non-Drow allies away from them, and then create a crisis that weakens or destroys those you can't suborn where you or your main puppet are the only solution and use that to gain overt power.

Question is, how would one go about to gain loyal Drow followers in menzoberranzan?
The Leadership feat? Are there any guarantees?
Brainwashing magic?
I have read that when Elistrae dies, about 20% of all drows get converted to regular elves with dark skin, does this imply that about 1 in 5 of all Drow are either worshippers of Elistrae or not Evil aligned?

Ravens_cry
2015-01-11, 09:32 AM
On one hand, I'd say it would be better to rule as a power behind the throne, but, on the other hand, drow are so used to backstabbing and conniving that someone ruling in their own right with a loyal council would be something of a surprise, The big problem is Lolth. If she tells the priesthood she doesn't like you, you are going to face an angry, hostile city, with few, if any, allies among the populous. You need those if you are to truly rule a city.

Obak
2015-01-11, 11:51 AM
On one hand, I'd say it would be better to rule as a power behind the throne, but, on the other hand, drow are so used to backstabbing and conniving that someone ruling in their own right with a loyal council would be something of a surprise, The big problem is Lolth. If she tells the priesthood she doesn't like you, you are going to face an angry, hostile city, with few, if any, allies among the populous. You need those if you are to truly rule a city.

Yes, my thought exactly. The priesthood must be compromised in some way.

Red Fel
2015-01-11, 12:15 PM
Yes, my thought exactly. The priesthood must be compromised in some way.

Does dead count as compromised? I'm going to go out on a limb here and argue that if you find a way to kill every single Cleric of Lolth (or NPC equivalent) in Menzo, the priesthood has been compromised.

Barring that, no dice. There's nothing you can do to the clergy that the Drow don't do to themselves on a daily basis. Everyone is trying to one-up everyone else. About the only thing you can do is make it abundantly clear that Lolth-worship leads to an immediate death. That doesn't compromise the priesthood, but it gives it an immediate lack of appeal. Nobody will want to voluntarily line up for the guillotine, after all.

The only way to break the priesthood's stranglehold on the population is to completely and utterly destroy the priesthood. Not to discredit them, because their credentials are impeccable. Not to weed them out, because like weeds, they'll spring back up. Not to destroy their holdings and assets, because they'll simply take new ones by force and authority. You have to kill every last one of them, publicly and with prejudice. You need to make the Drow genuinely fear the consequences of worshiping Lolth. And you need to do that under the very nose of one of the most hateful, conniving, and begrudging deities in the cosmology. And you need to get away with it without a smiting.

Good luck.

Knaight
2015-01-11, 01:14 PM
I agree with your earlier rant, it's absurd just how Chaotic Stupid they are, it makes no sense, but that's what's written.

It's not as unreasonable as it seems. Basically, there are a bunch of familial structures, and there's usually a fair amount of loyalty within them, though there is jockeying for position. These exist within a broader structure which generally favors local stability, in which a sudden gain by any one party is going to be responded to by a lot of others. On top of that, there's a clergy that isn't directly a part of the political structure, but which can impose laws upon it. That's actually not that exotic of an organization, it's basically a bunch of clans under a common church. A lot of feudalism worked in a pretty similar way, where just about every major leader change was hotly contested (including cases where the legal heir was obvious).

As for the takeover - there isn't any real, single, centralized authority. There's a bunch of tiny clans, and the priesthood. Odds are that there wouldn't be a particularly unified response to a takeover heavily directed only at some clan holdings, even if there is a nominal alliance. Consider crusader states and similar, where crusader states routinely warred against each other and had allies among the countries they were nominally on crusade against. Sure, there was a general trend, and sure, there were some large sides that were defined by the general trend, but in practice it was much messier than that. Something similar can be leveraged*.

The church is a bigger problem. There are probably religious schisms to exploit, and it does have territories, so some of the strategies aimed at political entities should transfer. Beyond that though, a more revolutionary tack may be necessary. The big asset here is that there is a very large underclass. There are internal divisions within it (full slaves and exploited commoners are distinct), and the way those are usually maintained involves those with the actual power trying to set the groups against each other. If the commoners can be convinced that the slaves gaining enough power to improve themselves to the point where the groups blur is a major risk, they might just help keep them down. Drow society seems to use holy doctrine as the primary tool there.

As such, starting with an internal schism could work. Basically, it needs to look like those in power consider the lower classes sufficiently interchangeable that a revolt is their real concern. Having someone preaching that threat could actually make it more likely, as it might make more sense for the commoners to ally with the slaves. Appealing directly to the noble fear about their power holding structures failing could work here, it won't look like a populist plot. It will also instill general hostility towards the church. Now, the revolutionary movement that needs to be seeded, that looks a bit more populist. An informal cell based structure rooted in lots and lots of secret societies is the best bet. With how the clans work, it almost works out to the formation of secret clans among the commoners and slaves. Individual secret societies can be found out, and it's not a problem. If the individual societies also pick up a cell based structure, they get all the stronger.

Then there's the matter of opportunity. The best opportunity for a revolutionary movement is when the state apparatus the revolution is against is also under external attack. The clan structure works against you here, since attacks on some clans won't be interpreted as a wide scale external attack. On the other hand, if the target is explicitly the church, odds get a bit better. This has to be implemented carefully, as there's the potential for it to backfire by promoting religious unity instead. That sort of fervor is likely to be short lived though, an extended conflict will burn through it, particularly if it's clear that the conflict ends when the church does, and that the attacking forces will settle for not actually implementing their replacement. The appearance of a war of conquest has to be avoided, it undermines that and is probably the best way to get some degree of unification in response.

Then the trick is transitioning away from a revolutionary state. The revolution needs to collapse in infighting. Essentially, you want a terror to follow it, French Revolution style. The trappings may be useful, with public executions, propaganda, etc. The incentives need to be for the hardliners to have the power, pushing people towards more and more extreme positions, deposing and executing those who deviate from increasingly stringent standards. The leaders of the revolution have to be consumed in it. You can try to pull a Napoleon style takeover here, but it isn't recommended. Staying the heck away from the situation until the terror eventually grinds to a halt is a better idea. The characteristic behavior of it is that the fanatical hardliners continuously take power, and those in power are continuously ousted, eventually the supply of people who can drift over to the fanatical hardliner end will deplete. Maybe a few will stick around because they are unusually savvy, for the most part what helps is just not being all that ambitious, and being more docile and detached.

Those same traits are not particularly conducive to resisting a conquering army, so that's the obvious tactic from there. It is also part of the reason that so much time is needed, as even a vestige of the previous church structure or even the loose clan structure might be enough to provide a focal point for unification against the external, which undoes everything.

*I'm assuming evil characters here, because the tactics involved pretty much demand it.

Ravens_cry
2015-01-11, 02:26 PM
The trouble with the idea of exploiting schisms is Lolth.
She is a very active goddess.
She loves to micromanage.
While she probably starts schisms for giggles, if someone else started playing with her toys, well, you know this means war!
Also, I would say the priesthood is the centralized authority, being the cultural touchstone. If the priesthood says something happens, that thing happens.

Envyus
2015-01-11, 03:34 PM
Though it should be noted that he leaders of the priesthood are all leaders of the major Drow Houses.

Coidzor
2015-01-11, 05:51 PM
Question is, how would one go about to gain loyal Drow followers in menzoberranzan?
The Leadership feat? Are there any guarantees?
Brainwashing magic?
I have read that when Elistrae dies, about 20% of all drows get converted to regular elves with dark skin, does this imply that about 1 in 5 of all Drow are either worshippers of Elistrae or not Evil aligned?

That's between you and your DM, sadly. I mean, we could conjecture about particular avenues to investigate, I suppose. The Drow Commoners can't enjoy the place in society they hold where they're not slaves but they're treated as helots for the children of Drow Nobles to practice murdering and assassinating.

The Elistraee turning 1 in 5 Drow into surface Elves is more to do with how many Drow are descended from this one demon who worked for Lolth and had sex with an awful lot of Drow who then went on to control most of the society and have their children have sex with an awful lot of Drow and so on and so forth sort of like how a massive chunk of the world's human population is somehow descended from Genghis Khan in some fashion.

Ravens_cry
2015-01-11, 06:41 PM
Though it should be noted that he leaders of the priesthood are all leaders of the major Drow Houses.
True enough, and they do enough squabbling amongst themselves in both roles, but when the word comes from on high from Lolth, they present something akin to a unified front.

goto124
2015-01-11, 07:16 PM
You need to make the Drow genuinely fear the consequences of worshiping Lolth. And you need to do that under the very nose of one of the most hateful, conniving, and begrudging deities in the cosmology. And you need to get away with it without a smiting.

Good luck.

Probably a lot easier if Lolth doesn't actually exist. I don't know how gods work here...

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-11, 07:28 PM
Why am I getting the feeling this thread is ending up with 'Step 1: Kill Lolth.' I mean, given the level, it seems appropriate.

Red Fel
2015-01-11, 07:37 PM
Why am I getting the feeling this thread is ending up with 'Step 1: Kill Lolth.'

Because you know us?

Knaight
2015-01-11, 10:41 PM
Why am I getting the feeling this thread is ending up with 'Step 1: Kill Lolth.' I mean, given the level, it seems appropriate.

It also does solve problems with the priesthood being unified. For instance, the plan I outlined works assuming that the high probability events all happen, and Lloth isn't interventionist - it's one of the downsides to it being based on patterns from real events, where (avoiding specifics), you can get a schism without the deity immediately and unambiguously stepping in and setting things straight.

goto124
2015-01-11, 11:02 PM
It also does solve problems with the priesthood being unified. For instance, the plan I outlined works assuming that the high probability events all happen, and Lloth isn't interventionist - it's one of the downsides to it being based on patterns from real events, where (avoiding specifics), you can get a schism without the deity immediately and unambiguously stepping in and setting things straight.

In RL, gods don't actively warp reality (let's try not to turn this thread into a purely religious discussion). This bit depends on how the DM deals with gods, whether they're more interventionist or more 'stay in the shadows'.

Since the players and DM seem to want to deal with the drow society itself, not the gods, it might help to rule for a less interventionist god. Or one that doesn't actually exist.

Admiral Squish
2015-01-11, 11:06 PM
Nonono, step one is to kidnap babies and a breed a replacement culture. Step tow is prepare mortal-world forces to strike against drow cities on your command. You only kill Lolth in step three. Then step four is kill all the old drow culture, and step five is replace it with your own.

Knaight
2015-01-11, 11:15 PM
In RL, gods don't actively warp reality (let's try not to turn this thread into a purely religious discussion). This bit depends on how the DM deals with gods, whether they're more interventionist or more 'stay in the shadows'.

I deliberately phrased it more widely specifically to avoid running across any points of religious contention. It takes well past just actively warping reality for the plan to really be effected. Even if the active warping is routine and incredibly obvious, there's a lot of rooms for sects to come up if it doesn't come with active communication. For instance, there could easily be a schism regarding conflicting ideas on the motivation behind some sort of intervention.

goto124
2015-01-11, 11:27 PM
I deliberately phrased it more widely specifically to avoid running across any points of religious contention. It takes well past just actively warping reality for the plan to really be effected. Even if the active warping is routine and incredibly obvious, there's a lot of rooms for sects

:sabine: Sorry, I got distracted when you said that.

Coidzor
2015-01-12, 12:16 AM
Why am I getting the feeling this thread is ending up with 'Step 1: Kill Lolth.' I mean, given the level, it seems appropriate.

Not necessarily, but you do need to be prepared to deal with what she can dish out on the material plane. Which largely depends upon the DM and how sueish he plays her.

So there is a range of possibilities where, on the high end, one might need to be able to neutralize an Aspect, Avatar, or Lolth herself over this.

Solaris
2015-01-12, 01:16 AM
Why am I getting the feeling this thread is ending up with 'Step 1: Kill Lolth.' I mean, given the level, it seems appropriate.

Because that would pretty much be the easiest way to go about it?

That... that really says something about how messed up the drow are, that killing a deity is the easiest way to straighten their culture out.

Obak
2015-01-12, 06:41 AM
Killing Lolth will propaly be part of any plan to rule menzoberranzan, but having it as stepp number one is either just a bad plan or a nasty DM.
As I see it, there must be done some ground-work fisrt, at least untill the upheaving party is at the apropriate level to go toe-to-toe with a demon god.

The Drow are used to intrigue, but they are either intrigues within the system that aims only to change it within existing parameters (replacing one abusive tyrant with another using the traditional means of stepping on others and back stabbing) or external threats that seek to destroy the city. This would make them prone to assume either the one or the other.
Therefore I would assume that say for example; supporting multiple mid-ranking overambitions priestesses (in secret of course) would pass under the rader as just another power-grab scheem from some up-and-comming house, instad of its true purpose which is to solely upset the priesthood.

There is allways the chance of Lolth stepping in and demaning something be done, but even in this instance I would expect the Drow till still be Drow and even under the watchfull gaze of their god they would still try to backstab and outmanouver each other, perhaps even more so since they know their gods appreciation of ambition and opportunism.

Irennan
2015-01-13, 05:18 PM
The Elistraee turning 1 in 5 Drow into surface Elves is more to do with how many Drow are descended from this one demon who worked for Lolth and had sex with an awful lot of Drow who then went on to control most of the society and have their children have sex with an awful lot of Drow and so on and so forth sort of like how a massive chunk of the world's human population is somehow descended from Genghis Khan in some fashion.

Drow who worship Eilistraee are indeed about 20% of the total, tho . They are however still a narrow minority of the total and are mostly scattered on the surface of Faerun. Most of the drow who didn't descend from the demon-messed bloodline were wiped in a huge ritual by the elves during the Crown Wars (the Dark Disaster), the few survivors fled in the Underdark after the Descent (which for some reason hit them as well) and during the millennia, they too had sex with the other drow, therefore reducing the number of ''pure'' dark elves to a neglectable %. The bulk of the transformed drow consists of ''tainted'' (so to speak, in the sense that the Seldarine don't let them into the VIP Arvandor because ''OMG demon'', but can totally go to -say- Eilistraee's domain in that plane) followers of Eilistraee.

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-14, 11:18 PM
Drow who worship Eilistraee are indeed about 20% of the total, tho

Except Eilistraee's dead, so...

Also, 20%? That seems like an unlikely huge number. I would have put it at no more than 5%, though that number is admittedly apropos nothing. Where are you getting 20% from?

goto124
2015-01-14, 11:35 PM
Where are all of you getting your information from? Which version of Menzo are we talking about? Surely it differs from story to story?

Obak
2015-01-15, 01:37 AM
I believe it was somewhere on the forgotten realms wiki related to the death of Eilistraee, but I can't find the page again.

hamishspence
2015-01-15, 03:23 AM
The Elistraee turning 1 in 5 Drow into surface Elves is more to do with how many Drow are descended from this one demon who worked for Lolth

In the Evermeet novel - it's implied that many drow are descended from Lolth as a demon - after she was turned into a demon and banished to the Abyss, she managed to find gates to the mortal world, took a powerful drow archmage (Ka'Narlist) as a consort, and had a lot of offspring.

(Spelling is Lloth in this particular book)


The dark elf Ka'Narlist was a being she could truly enjoy. Perhaps it was time that she took a new consort. She had no doubt that he would accept her joyfully - they were as like each other as two dark pearls. She might even bear children to him, and why not? She would not be the first god to be tempted by a mortal, nor was she likely to be the last. And the children she might spawn - ah, the possibilities of breeding such delicious evil into a race of elves! Such elves would trample Corellon's children, conquering the world and breeding worshippers for Lloth, followers she could claim with pride!

Ka'Narlist's dark and vaulting ambitions set new flame to her own. Lloth would be a goddess once again. She who once had spun the thread of the dark elves' destiny felt that her hands were set once again to the loom of fate.

Kami2awa
2015-01-15, 03:43 AM
At level 70, you're quite able to cut the head off the snake - that is to say, kill Lolth. She's the thing that makes Drow society stable in any way whatsoever, and also will always oppose change.

Killing Lolth de-powers her priesthood (no spell renewal), who incidentally run the society (in as much as anyone runs anything in a CE world). The result will be anarchy, probably short lived as arcane casters or even non casters will take over (because that's what Drow do). The "revolution" overthrows Lolth's priestess-hood but nothing much changes - however, the society is no longer has the inertia created by Lolth.

Therefore, during the anarchy you need to be the ones who take over instead. Lawful evil probably trumps chaotic evil just by being better organised and having minions it can depend upon not to backstab it. Start your LE rebel faction amongst the disgruntled classes of the Drow world (i.e. all of them). Get the powerful but downtrodden on your side. What can you offer? Well, you're level 70, what can't you offer?

Eventually, your LE faction comes to dominate the city, with you at the top. You won.

Irennan
2015-01-15, 05:27 AM
Also, 20%? That seems like an unlikely huge number. I would have put it at no more than 5%, though that number is admittedly apropos nothing. Where are you getting 20% from?

http://http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67#159733 (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5812&whichpage=67#159733)

That's from Ed Greenwood. And 20% is not a huge number IMO, because 1)not all Eilistraee worshippers are ''good'' 2)they're spread on the surface of Faerun (the ''Secret Moondancers'' are rare in cities like Menzo), 3)the remaining 80% are still split among brainwahsed Lolth followers (most of them), Vhaerunites (a few of them even overlaps with the number of Eilistraeens) and -in small part- others, which are closer to the stereotypical ''evil'' drow 4)it's like a snapshot taken during or shortly after the Silence of Lolth, which means many opportunists.

Also, Eilistraee may very well be still alive (despite WotC's intentions. The author of the novels said that she left various loopholes to allow the Dark Maiden to be easily reintroduced). Even in canon, a goddess can be killed only on her own home plane, and in the novels she appears to be killed in her avatar form, and by a sword that had lost most of its original properties (since the ''soul destroying'' part stopped working after it was shattered). WotC said literally nothing about Eilistraee after those novels, and in ''Menzoberranzan; City of Intrigue'' (the 4e book) her 'defeat' is still attributed to her chosen being killed while possessed by the goddess, which leads to what I said before. The situation is very muddy there, I guess that the new lore that Mr. Greenwood has written about her in the post-Sundering era of the FR will tell us what Eilistraee actually did. http://theedverse.com/#comment-1713535372


Setting that aside, the Dark Dancer's status depends on which era the Op is playing in and on what they and their DM want to do with canon events. Furthermore, if they are playing in the Sundering era (present), Eilistraee is most likely back and alive, just like the other ''lost'' deities are.

http://http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597 (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=19597).


@hemishpence.
Dark elves were there before Lolth did whatever with Ka'Narlist. After the Crown Wars Corellon decided to banish them and they were called dhaeraow (which with time has become drow) by the elves because of the actions of Ilythiiri (one of the two ancient dark elven realms in FR) armies and magic users, who summoned Lolth's power to aid them.

hamishspence
2015-01-15, 06:55 AM
@hemishpence.
Dark elves were there before Lolth did whatever with Ka'Narlist.
Yup - hence Lolth describing him as a dark elf in her thoughts.


After the Crown Wars Corellon decided to banish them and they were called dhaeraow (which with time has become drow) by the elves because of the actions of Ilythiiri (one of the two ancient dark elven realms in FR) armies and magic users, who summoned Lolth's power to aid them.

Yup. It wasn't just dark elves who became drow though - those green elves who sided with them during the Crown Wars were also transformed and banished, going by Grand History of the Realms.

It was the descendants of those green elves who were mostly turned back, in the Lady Penitent trilogy, with Eilistraee's sacrifice.

Irennan
2015-01-15, 07:02 AM
AFAIK all Eilistraee's followers were turned back, alongside those drow who didn't have a lil bit of Wendonai in their blood --those were the conditions of the ritual performed by that mage, Q'arlynd or smth-- (WotC's goal was to remove those ''good'' drow and their goddess from the setting, after all). The latter are basically neglectable, because the descendants you are talking about have been living with other drow for millennia, which led to their bloodlines being mixed (also that's why Eilistraee's actions are so out of her character -assuming that what happened actually was a sacrifice, to me that didn't look like one at all-, she gave a narrow part of the drow -her followers+the ''pure'' ones- something they didn't need and didn't ask for -and that wouldn't have wanted to get if that meant losing their goddess and their cause-, while the turning her back to the vast majority of drow. It goes against her very mission and what she stands for).

I feel like this is derailing the thread, tho. My apologies to the OP.

Kami2awa
2015-01-15, 07:21 AM
Killing Lolth will propaly be part of any plan to rule menzoberranzan, but having it as stepp number one is either just a bad plan or a nasty DM.
As I see it, there must be done some ground-work fisrt, at least untill the upheaving party is at the apropriate level to go toe-to-toe with a demon god.

The Drow are used to intrigue, but they are either intrigues within the system that aims only to change it within existing parameters (replacing one abusive tyrant with another using the traditional means of stepping on others and back stabbing) or external threats that seek to destroy the city. This would make them prone to assume either the one or the other.
Therefore I would assume that say for example; supporting multiple mid-ranking overambitions priestesses (in secret of course) would pass under the rader as just another power-grab scheem from some up-and-comming house, instad of its true purpose which is to solely upset the priesthood.

There is allways the chance of Lolth stepping in and demaning something be done, but even in this instance I would expect the Drow till still be Drow and even under the watchfull gaze of their god they would still try to backstab and outmanouver each other, perhaps even more so since they know their gods appreciation of ambition and opportunism.

Yes, I agree that taking on Lolth is a long term goal... but you can, before that, gradually build up the LE (or even LN or *even*, dare I say it, Good) faction within the city. It really should be possible to rally the downtrodden behind you and Drow society gives you so many downtrodden to choose from. As you go up in level get more and more powerful figures under your control. Use the natural tendency of Drow to in-fight to eliminate rivals or those close to uncovering the whole plan. At the risk of breaking the real-world politics ban, take inspiration from how dictators get to the top in the first place while working within their existing society. Imagine that + magical powers + the eventual potential to kill Lolth.

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-15, 08:16 AM
That's from Ed Greenwood. And 20% is not a huge number IMO

Hmm. Ed needs to space his paragraphs better for ease of reading...

"Drow who ONLY worship Eilistraee are almost entirely her clergy, and are probably between 10 and 12 percent of all drow."

22% worship Eilistraee as part of the larger Drow pantheon, but Greenwood says that it's like how a Tymoran might occasionally give offerings to Umberlee, Lathander, and even Beshaba at times. I wouldn't mark Drow pantheists as being Eilistraee followers in particular, especially in the Realms where you have to pick one patron above others.

The organization of Lolth < Vhaerun < Eilistraee < Selvetarm < Ghaundaur mostly makes sense to me. No love for Kiaransalee? Oh well. The wording on her "death" makes it sound like she (Kiaransalee) could come back as a Vestige, at least.

10-12% is still way more then I've ever personally believed. I mean, the vast majority of drow live underground in Lolth-controlled city-states - I would have assumed 75% of the race, though I'd have to get my copy of Underdark and do some number-crunching to be sure. In Lolth-controlled cities the worship of Selvetarm would generally be tolerated amongst the males and he'd be seen as an "acceptable" alternative for male warriors, so I would have pegged him as above Eilistraee; while Vhaerun gets the majority of surface drow to himself. Ghaundaur and Kiaransalee are still somewhere around the bottom.

The fact that priests of Eilistraee have to spend some time as female is...unsettling.


Also, Eilistraee may very well be still alive (despite WotC's intentions. The author of the novels said that she left various loopholes to allow the Dark Maiden to be easily reintroduced).

Yes, but at the moment insofar as canon is concerned, she's dead. It might not stick. Bane and Bhaal both died but both are now running around the Realms again, after all, but I don't want to take it as a given that she'll come back (especially not if Eilistraeen worship was so large - such a big minority of drow following her kind of undercuts the whole "renegade drow cult of good" idea - and if that whole changedance thing is canon, because...that's unsettling. Oh well, she is a drow goddess, so I can get behind the idea that it's due to a large number of former Lolthite priestesses who established much of her rituals and had trouble adapting, while Eilistraee herself might be somewhat tainted due to millennia of contact with drow culture).

(Also death starts to sort of lose meaning if anyone can recover from it. Bane and Bhaal both explicitly had backup plans in place and had those plans in place for some time. In Bhaal's case it's taken us 17 years to actually see it come to fruition but the groundwork was laid some time ago, so even though I wasn't expecting Bhaal's return, it's not out of the blue and I can buy the logic behind it. If Eilistraee comes back just because she's popular amongst the fanbase...well, I won't blame WotC, their job is to cater to their customers, but I will make an FR campaign where suddenly every dead god starts coming back to life and Ao just throws up his hands and quits)

And her death was super awkward. I don't mind her dying and Correllon taking over, that's fine and dramatic and stuff. My issue is how those drow who followed Eilistraee/Vhaerun went from being black-skinned to brown-skinned, the implication being that they're halfway to redeemed.

That's...come on, Wizards of the Coast. You already face issues all the damn time over the fact that the drow are evil and black. Did you really have to imply that having brown skin makes you halfway redeemed, the full implication being that white skin is "pure"? Ugh. Just have drow be drow and even redeemed drow still be drow.

goto124
2015-01-15, 09:01 AM
You already face issues all the damn time over the fact that the drow are evil and black. Did you really have to imply that having brown skin makes you halfway redeemed, the full implication being that white skin is "pure"? Ugh. Just have drow be drow and even redeemed drow still be drow.

I've always wanted to ask why drow aren't associated with black people :smalltongue:

Irennan
2015-01-15, 09:02 AM
@Rogue Shadows

I don't like the changedance either, but it has reasons behind it. Ed meant Eilistraee as a mother goddess (and somehow a fertility goddess as well), fighting to help the drow -her children- grow and flourish in a hostile world. He says that one cannot truly feel her divine dance except as a female, and it is because of this reason. In order to ''fully cleave'' to the Dark Dancer, her priest(esse)s have to feel her mother side, and -according to what Ed says- it is truly possible only as a woman. It's basically part of who Eilistraee is. Besides, males can choose to not undergo the changedance, but many choose to do it, because without it they can't completely feel the Dark Dancer (I guess that means that they can't have a full divine conncetion with her, therefore not getting access to some spells, or something like that).

About what happened in the Lady Penitent novels, as you can see from Perkin's answer to my letter, it was mainly aimed to remove Eilistraee from the FR because she makes Drizzt ''less special'' (even if Eilistraeens and Drizzt are two compeltely different kind of characters, with completely different kind of goals). The problem is that what happened at the end not only brings up the problem you pointed out, but it just doesn't fit the Dark Dancer's character and goal, like at all.

First there's the lifting of Corellon's Descent. That is a good thing on its own, but it is not something that her followers needed or maybe even wanted (certainly not something that they would want to lose their goddess for) and instead it was forced upon them (an act that the Dark Dancer would never do). The idea at the base of Eilistraee's cause is that drow are not innately evil, they can choose their life and coexist with other races, she sees no reason why the ones who do shouldn't be accepted as such -drow- and works to make that happen. Her followers want to be together with the elves, but why would they need or be willing to give up who they are and their goddess for it? They are born drow, to them it's who they are, they don't fight to change their identity or get rid of some magical ''corruption'', but strive for a better future for all their people -the drow (sorry for repeating it)- (something that after these events, as brown elves, they can't do anymore, with the drow attacking them on sight). After all (from Demihuman Deities) ''Eilistraee is forging her own path, one that welcomes beings of all races who revel in life and freedom of expression of all that entails''.

Then there is the removal of a demonic taint which (as it can be seen from various examples, including all followers of Eilistraee) didn't force them to choose evil or substantially influence their life, but mainly barred them from Arvandor (but not from other nice places, like their goddess' realm). This too is a good achievement on its own, but again not a primary aspect of the Dark Maiden's goal (also I think that her followers didn't care for Arvandor, but only wanted to be with her after their death). It was passed as 'redemption', but Eilistraee was never about removing Lolth's taint, or some other kind of curse: drow can only redeem themselves through choice and she can only ignite the desire to change in them. Her followers had already made their choice, they were already redeemed and didn't need this. For the other dark elves, even if she had managed to remove the taint from the whole race, they surely wouldn't have changed their life just because of it.

And yet the story had Eilistraee leave so many drow behind, still in her mother's grasp -therefore abandoning the quest she dedicated her life to-, giving herself to accomplish so little for her purpose (and for a small -compared to the remaining drow- number of people who didn't need it and would have by far preferred to keep her). All of this -to me- just isnt the Dark Maiden, but something that she would never consider, that defeats the very ideals she stand for (and the part about the remaining dark elves being considered 'unwilling' and to be 'cast down' makes this feel even sadder, because it really goes against what Eilistraee is).

And Corellon didn't even take her place, he simply allowed her followers into Arvandor (not that Eilistraee would have any reason to give up and let her father take over). He doesn't even come close to be what Eilistraee is for the drow.

I do mind her being removed, a lot. Eilistraee and Vhaeraun are what makes the realmsian drow unique and different from gygaxian drow copy-pasted into the Realms. They are both Ed's original creation for his own home campaing, whom he made official when TSR asked for more drow deities. If anything, they are iconic to the realmsian drow as much as Lolth is, a big part of what gives depth of character to FR drow. They have very neat and well defined concepts on their own, and they were thrown away in such a poor way.

Now, this gives plenty of reasons to bring Eilistraee back, besides popularity. It wouldn't be out of the blue, given that the novels left A LOT of room for her returning in a logical way (or being never actually gone, to begin with). And -according to Perkins and given that Ed has already written lore about her in the ''present'' FR- I'd say that it is very probable that we are going to see the Dark Dancer again soon(TM). I agree with you that she could have her influence diminished, but with her coming back her power would be FAR less than it was. She would have a new beginning, with its pro and cons (including being weakened). I'm completely fine with that.

Or they could use the idea that was -sadly- cut from the 4e Menzo sourcebook: The Masked Lady originated from Eilistraee and Vhaeraun forming an alliance, and at the end of the LP trilogy she didn't die but actually lost her divinity (which fueled the ritual that transformed her drow into brown elves). After that event the two siblings -single entities again- became archfey and -although much weakened- continued their quest to free the dark elves from Lolth's grasp.

Also, the FR now is pure cheese. Just look at the whole premise of the Sundering. Besides, all the gods who perished during the Times of Troubles are back --Ao is bringing all the gods back with his new tablets of fate-- (just look at the PHB list of FR deities -which according to Mearls is even incomplete-, basically all of them are back available as player choices in the Organized Play, which is canon and is set post-Sundering), why should two interesting and unique gods like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun be left out?

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-15, 09:25 AM
Besides, males can choose to not undergo the changedance,

Yes, but then they're excluded from a number of Eilistraeen rites. As a male who's never felt a real desire to be anything but male, this bothers me. Plus it's not like other mother goddesses in the FR pantheon - Chauntea, for example - have similar requirements.


Also, the FR now is pure cheese. Just look at the whole premise of the Sundering. Besides, all the gods who perished during the Times of Troubles are back --Ao is bringing all the gods back with his new tablets of fate-- (just look at the PHB list of FR gods -which according to Mearls is even incomplete-, basically all of them are back available as player choices in the Organized Play, which is canon and is set post-Sundering), why should two interesting and unique gods like Eilistraee and Vhaeraun be left out?

This only argues to me that bringing back all these gods really shouldn't have happened. Bhaal is the only one I can see as getting away with it (Bane did his thing between 2nd and 3rd Edition and so doesn't count for our purposes), because, again, the groundwork was laid for the consumer 17 years ago with the Baldur's Gate games establishing the Bhaalspawn and that each one of them dying adds fuel to Bhaal's rebirth. It's a bit cheesy but at least it builds on something both long-established and explicitly concerning Bhaal's resurrection. They even chose the perfect last two Bhaalspawn: Abdel, whom the consumers know (even if they don't like) as the default CHARNAME and expect to have survived Throne of Bhaal, and Viekang, who's teleporting ability means it would make perfect sense for him to avoid being killed at Saradush (as indeed there's even an option to help Viekang do exactly that when you play Throne of Bhaal).

The Lady Penitent series, conversely, mostly just left a lot of vague possibility for Eilistraee to come back. It feels wrong - but if the drow must have a good deity then I think I'd rather some mortal drow undergoing an apotheosis into the role. What's Liriel Baenre up to these days? She seems like a good candidate. Give her a trilogy and make it happen.

Again, death should have some semblance of permanence. Otherwise we end up with a Dragon Ball Z like scenario where death loses all meaning because it can be reversed so easily. It becomes an inconvenience rather than a tragedy. I mean, yeah, the same basic problem exists in D&D when played at mid- to high-levels, but the literature for D&D at least generally avoided that.

Irennan
2015-01-15, 09:43 AM
Yes, but then they're excluded from a number of Eilistraeen rites. As a male who's never felt a real desire to be anything but male, this bothers me. Plus it's not like other mother goddesses in the FR pantheon - Chauntea, for example - have similar requirements.

well, I see, but they're not exactly the same. Chauntea is a goddess of nature and fertility in general, while Ed wanted Eilistraee to be a mother for the drow people, the mother that Lolth could never be. Perhaps he wanted her priestesses to reflect that motherly flavor. Also he says that the males that choose the changedance feel the need to spend more time in it, so it seems like they don't feel it as a constriction. I don't like this either (and maybe they could change this side of the goddess with her return, after the time spent as the Masked Lady), but it's a part of Eilistraee that IMHO adds nuances to her character.





The Lady Penitent serious, conversely, mostly just left a lot of vague possibility for Eilistraee to come back. It feels wrong - if the drow must have a good deity then I think I'd rather some mortal drow undergoing an apotheosis into the role. What's Liriel Baenre up to these days? She seems like a good candidate.


Well, the possibilities for the Dark Dancer to come back are a lot actually. There's a consistent chance for Eilistraee to not even be dead, why should it feel wrong? The whole series felt wrong TBH, with all the drow deities all of sudden randomly starting to kill each other, with all the BS going on at the end, with E&V and the whole drow pantheon being basically thrown away --the main reason behind their removal being ''too many deities'' and ''Drizzt must be more special''-- with Eilistraee going against what she stands for. It was just a huge Deus ex Machina to implement chenges to the drow and that was turned into novels because drow sell. As I said, both of the siblings are iconic to the FR drow, and they are unique and well defined characters with a cool story behind them. Why waste them like that? I -and many others- would enjoy even their return as archefey -or hell, mortals- as long as they can fight again for their cause.

Lets face it, WotC went way overboard with godly deaths (and foolishness), they lost their meaning, they were implemented as shock value in novels and as tools to do whatever changes to the setting (like Eilistraee's followers all of sudden not being drow anymore so that Drizzt could feel more special). The FR as a whole has been drowned in cheese with the loads of godly drama and cataclysms. What is done is done, since so many have already returned, why should two such popular and interesting character be randomly left out?

If I were you, I would also wait before saying that it feels wrong to see the Dark Dancer returning. Ed has already written lore about Eilistraee in the 5e FR, it could very well offer a really cool explanation to the whole thing, and it will most likely include her and her followers fighting to forge their path again, truly capturing the feel of the ''light and becaon of hope in the darkness''. It could be a new beginning, like after the fall of Miyeritar Eilistraee and her drow were trying to do exactly that, so we would get to see a similar situation, while we didn't get to see it for the past -and it would be very interesting IMO, offering a lot of campaign and story possibilities-.


I would like to see Liriel too, but she's far more interesting as a mortal that we can follow in her adventures, rather than a deity.

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-15, 10:44 AM
The whole series felt wrong TBH, with all the drow deities all of sudden randomly starting to kill each other,

Actually that was the one bit that felt right, with regards to the drow pantheon. When a house of cards starts to fall it falls fast. Given the sheer level of Chaos and keikaku dōri floating around in drow society it makes sense that ultimately their pantheon mirrors one of their Houses. The moment there was the slightest chance for real change everyone leaped at the opportunity and the result was an awful lot of blood.


I would like to see Liriel too, but she's far more interesting as a mortal that we can follow in her adventures, rather than a deity.

I agree - well, sort of, the Daughter of the Drow trilogy had this weird tendency to be really engaging books until their last 25 pages or so, at which point they tended to disappoint me in a number of ways, usually because I'm left feeling like a lot less had been accomplished then we've been lead to believe. Elaine Cunningham can't write satisfying endings.

But otherwise I would much prefer Liriel to remain as a mortal. But if we must have a good drow goddess then I'd rather Eilistraee stays dead and our good drow goddess is plucked from amongst the mortal drow. Liriel was just my first choice off the top of my head as an alternative to creating a new character wholesale.

Vhaeraun coming back would feel even weirder since he was explicitly killed insofar as I can remember.


As I said, both of the siblings are iconic to the FR drow

To be completely honest they always felt somewhat tacked on anyway (let's not delude ourselves - they were added to cater to players of good drow), although Eilistraee more so then Vhaeraun. I wasn't even aware of Eilistraee's existence for most of 2nd Edition's run and was really only barely aware of her for the first half of 3rd Edition; probably not helped by the fact that she didn't show up in any of the Drizzt books, where you think she'd be a shoe-in even if only to show up to Drizzt at some point and say "thanks for being a drow that's famous and good; you're good PR for my priestesses." But apparently one in ten drow actively worship her as their patron and one in five worship her as part of the larger drow pantheon? I don't think Greenwood really thought things through there. Mostly it argues for a far greater number of Good drow than we've been lead to believe actually exist.

Vhaeraun doesn't feel quite as tacked on because he doesn't require me to believe that a massive number of drow have a radically different mindset from that of the Lolthites, just less gender bias. I'm not saying that the drow are predisposed towards evil by their nature. I am saying that they're predisposed towards evil by their cultural upbringing. So I would think that male drow would turn to Vhaeraun and Selvetarm over Eilistraee (especially as her clergy is still female-dominated; it doesn't look like much of a change from a male coming from Lolth-worship perspective), while females benefit from Lolth worship and, if they must look elsewhere, would probably look to Kiaransalee as a more "natural" alternative. Most drow on the surface would be exiles either looking to get back underground and rule, in which case they'd follow Lolth or Selvetarm; or looking to carve their own territory without the need for Lolth, in which case Kiaransalee or Vhaeraun are the most natural choices.

I think Ed Greenwood got caught up a little bit in the moment and the idea of a "good" drow deity and didn't really stop to think about a more natural progression when considering the vast majority of drow live in Lolthite-controlled city states. Really, it should be Lolth-majority, Selvetarm-minority for underground drow, Vhaeraun-majority, Eilistraee minority for surface drow (and the two together probably should only just barely equal Selvetarm's worship), and Kiaransalee, Ghaundaur, and other deities from other panthoens picking up the remainder

Irennan
2015-01-15, 11:09 AM
Actually that was the one bit that felt right, with regards to the drow pantheon. When a house of cards starts to fall it falls fast. Given the sheer level of Chaos and keikaku dōri floating around in drow society it makes sense that ultimately their pantheon mirrors one of their Houses. The moment there was the slightest chance for real change everyone leaped at the opportunity and the result was an awful lot of blood.

It would, but truly, I don't see Eilistraee taking part to all of that in a ''join the killing'' way. It's the opposite of what she stands for and wants to achieve. Her whole holy crusade gimmick feels wrong IMO.

In that story the Dark Maiden's focus was in trying to kill her mother, but 'slay the evil' is not what she is about. The redemption she wishes for can't come with that, but only with the drow choosing to be free: it's a personal path that each of them must follow. They are not magically going to change their mind and embrace her and her ideals just because she killed Lolth (which would likely cause a bloodbath among the dark elves and make them turn to other dark deities rather than herself). Eilistraee knows it, knows that she needs to make the drow understand that the life she wishes for them is possible and it can only be done by caring about them, 'being at their side' in the darkest moments and showing them the joy and beauty that there is in the kind existence that they have forgotten.





But otherwise I would much prefer Liriel to remain as a mortal. But if we must have a good drow goddess then I'd rather Eilistraee stays dead and our good drow goddess is plucked from amongst the mortal drow. Liriel was just my first choice off the top of my head as an alternative to creating a new character wholesale.

Well, at this point is matter of our preferences, but Eilistraee was treated like crap, truly, and she has depth and flavor as a character and a bond with the drow that is unique among deities. She chose to share their exile and suffering, to be one of them, to be a beacon of hopefor them -a mother goddess-. She shares their desire of a better life and fights to make it a reality. It's just awesome IMO. It would be a total waste to let her go like that-



Vhaeraun coming back would feel even weirder since he was explicitly killed insofar as I can remember.

There are many speculations there too. I've already said it, but there was lore that was cut at the last moment from the Menzoberranzan sourcebook that had Eilistraee and Vhaeraun allying and forming the MAsked Lady (Vaheraun's corpse was a deception that they put up for their mother), then giving away their divinity to lift whatever curse, becoming archfey but still keeping going on with their quest.



To be completely honest they always felt somewhat tacked on anyway (let's not delude ourselves - they were added to cater to players of good drow),

FR has been published in 1987, Eilistraee and the Dark Seldarine came up in 1991. Per Ed's words


Yes, Eilistraee is part of the "home" Realms campaign and has appeared "onstage" and by dream-vision and manifestation in Realmsplay. At the writing of (the first) DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, I was asked to create a deity for "good" drow for the game, and used the opportunity to make official the Dark Dancer female drow goddess I'd already created for my own use.
And, oh yes: Eilistraee lives!
:}
Ed


They have been part of his original FR and he made them official when TSR asked for a good drow deity. Granted it was done because good drow were becoming popular, but they haven't been tacked on. They are part of the Realms with their definite story, roles and concepts, because they were already so in Ed's campaing. Also, they are indeed iconic to FR, they are widely popular and define the drow in the Realms as much as Lolth does.



I think Ed Greenwood got caught up a little bit in the moment and the idea of a "good" drow deity and didn't really stop to think about a more natural progression when considering the vast majority of drow live in Lolthite-controlled city states. Really, it should be Lolth-majority, Selvetarm-minority for underground drow, Vhaeraun-majority, Eilistraee minority for surface drow (and the two together probably should only just barely equal Selvetarm's worship), and Kiaransalee, Ghaundaur, and other deities from other panthoens picking up the remainder

But it is kinda so. He said that most Eilistraeens are spread on the surface, and that Vhaeraun is a more popular choice. Also -as I said- the 20% is during the Silence of Lolth (and most likey overlaps with worshippers of Vhaeraun or other deities), when many drow priestesses picked Eilistraee as a goddess as a sort of refuge. It isn't really that huge, remember that the remaining 80% is spread among Vhaerunites and others, with Lolth being ahead. But then, I could very well do with that number being drastically reduced and Eilistraee building again --I've said it many times, it would be a new beginning for her--.

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-15, 11:18 AM
And, oh yes: Eilistraee lives!

Whelp, time to start that campaign in which all the dead gods of the Realms just start coming back apropos Ao. I didn't like what 4E did to the Realms, but it happened, and it should be possible to move things forward without literally turning back the clock and creating the most contrived circumstances ever seen by man.

Damn I've got a list to run through, though.

Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Kiaransalee, Zinzerena, Selvetarm, Gilgeam, Girru, Inanna, Ki, Marduk, Nanna-Sin, Nergal, Ramman, Utu, Amaunator, Auppenser, Bhaal, Chronos, Earthmother, Eshowdow, Helm, Ibrandul, Iyachtu Xvim, Jazirian, Kalzareinad, Karsus (that'll be fun), Kiputytto, Kukul, Leira, Moander, Murdane, Myrkul, Mystryl, Othea, Ra, the Seven Lost Gods (Camnod, Borem, Haask, Maram, Tyranthraxus, and presumably there's more), Tyche, Valigan Thirdborn, Tchazzar, Gorm Gulthyn, Haela Brightaxe, Laduguer, and the World Serpent all walk into a bar...

Irennan
2015-01-15, 11:26 AM
Heh, your camapaing looks a lot like the Sundering...

Jokes aside, I can see your point, but now I truly don't care anymore. The FR have turned into a mess of random godly drama, explosions and cataclysms and munchkins running all over the place. Every character is already a time traveler or something, a lot of contrived stuff has been written in order to restore what was taken away (Helm was a fricking goat, and Mystra a bear!!), lands have been swapped and continents rained from the sky.

You can't get more ridiculous then that. There's nothing to lose anymore. Then, at this point, the Sundering is basically a masked reboot. Where's the harm in restoring all that was cool and randomly destroyed, and after that drawing a line and saying ''ok, now enough 'epic' cheesy stories, lets focus on making the FR a campaign setting again, rather than a comics one''?

Rogue Shadows
2015-01-15, 11:46 AM
Then, at this point, the Sundering is basically a masked reboot.

"Masked" nothing, it's been openly stated as such.


Where's the harm in restoring all that was cool and randomly destroyed, and after that drawing a line and saying ''ok, now enough 'epic' cheesy stories, lets focus on making the FR a campaign setting again, rather than a comics one''?

The thing that's still left to lose is Ed Greenwood's credibility as a writer and worldbuilder. I don't mind that he wants to "turn back the clock," but if he's going to do that then just turn back the damn clock and reset the game year to 1379 DR and wipe everything else that happened from canon.

Otherwise he's making the Realms fall into the same trap that comic books are in. "Oh, Superman died. That will last." "Oh, Captain America lost his powers. Yawn."

The Sundering should be fixing things by moving forward, not backward. The sole reason I'm okay with Bhaal coming back is that there was extensive, 17-year-old groundwork laid explicitly for the purpose of bringing him back from the dead. There was nothing vague about it, nothing that needs even the slightest bit of interpretation or leaves any room for doubt: He spawned a bunch of kids and as those kids die they fuel his rebirth; once they're all dead, he's back. And even then I find him coming back more than a little contrived because the entire point of Throne of Bhaal was that Amellysan screwed that up for her own benefit and then was killed, scattering the Bhaalspawn essence into nothing and/or allowing CHARNAME to claim it all.

Helm is dead. He should stay dead. If Ao wants his position filled, he should be replaced by some other deity, or better yet a mortal. It's not like mortals haven't replaced gods before in the Realms when needed; Midnight replacing Mystryl and becoming Mystra, for example, or Hell, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul are all ascended mortals, as are Cyric and Kelemvor, and a host of others. The logical mechanism to move things forward was already there and would feel far more natural then this blatant pandering. I mean, it would still be pandering, but at least it would be pandering within the logical confines of the established world.

Irennan
2015-01-15, 12:03 PM
Well, tbh, we're talking about gods. They are being of such power that death is never permanent for them. They prepare contingencies, split their soul so that they can always come back eventually, have backplans and so on. Gods returning is ''logical'' within the boundaries of a high magic fantasy setting. They are not like mortal, their essence lingers and Ao bringing them back is not that far fetched (and definitely not more far fetched than them behaving like fools and dying like flies).

I wouldn't say the same about mortal character who magically end up in stasis or something, tho.

The boundaries have already been broken long ago. We already have the Superman syndrome (Bane dying and returning shortly after, many characters from the past reappearing), we have worse than that: continents appearing and disappearing like np, deus ex machina all over the place. The deities returning with the Sundering would be the last of this. Then stop: stop messing with them and blowing stuff up.

They can't turn back the clock (and I wouldn't turn it to 1379, but at least before the whole drowpocalypse -the first 4e victims- started -1375-, when their whole pantheon wasn't merely Lolth and Eilistraee) because otherwise Drizzt novels set post Spellplague become non-canon, and Drizzt is their main income apparently.

Coidzor
2015-01-15, 03:28 PM
Wait. Your party is level 70 and you're only just now getting around to collecting cities like trophies? :smallconfused:

Yeah, you don't need to be subtle about this, you just need to acquire or generate the right amount of mindrape. The theoretical combined might of all of the cities of the Drow are as a newborn kitten before your individual character, let alone your party.

Honest Tiefling
2015-01-15, 03:50 PM
Level 70 at the end...I assume they start under 20, and even then, they need some method to not die in the process if they decide to go toe-to-toe with Lolth herself. Or depending on the setting, need caution even with the drow themselves.

I think the War of the Spider Queen (Is that their correct name?) mentioned a race of a hybrid humanoid spider...Thing. Not driders, something different. They worshiped Lolth as well. How would your PC feel about turning them from Lolth to another patron?

I think a good first step is...Probably learning about the city now that I think about it. This way the DM can set up some plots and characters and stuff, and you guys can work with it to infiltrate the city. What level are you starting at?

hamishspence
2015-01-16, 03:21 AM
I think the War of the Spider Queen (Is that their correct name?) mentioned a race of a hybrid humanoid spider...Thing. Not driders, something different. They worshiped Lolth as well. How would your PC feel about turning them from Lolth to another patron?


Chitines. They're in the 3.0 book Monsters of Faerun (I think they might be in the 3.5 book Underdark as well).

Obak
2015-01-16, 04:52 AM
We will start around level 3, so there is quiet a long way to go until 70

Kami2awa
2015-01-18, 03:49 AM
We will start around level 3, so there is quiet a long way to go until 70

That's a LOOOOONNNNGGGG campaign you got there :) With a generous GM I levelled up from 1 to 8 in about half a year.

Obak
2015-01-20, 04:52 AM
Any suggestion what combination of classes would be best for this task?

Obak
2015-01-21, 07:01 AM
Becaise I'm thinking "Thrall herd"