Schrodinger's super fighter

[Renen]

Question: how good would a fighter be if you changed him completely?

Just as a thought I had: Say you keep the fighter the same with 2 changes:
1) His bonus feats can be any feat he qualifies for.
2) He can change his feats as a free action every round.

Only limitation to 2 would be no getting spells (like those builds that get you lvl 9 spells via only feats)

[atemu1234]

Still only really dip-worthy. It could make a pounce barbarian all the more powerful.

[eggynack]

As I recall, because this sort of thing comes up on occasion, this ability pushes the fighter to about tier three on the basis of speedy use of martial study/stance, granting spontaneous and repeated access to a bunch of maneuvers.

[Rebel7284]

Highest tier 3. He always has the right tools for the situation. Kind of like Factotum++.
- Fey Heritage out of combat is nice, for example for charm person. Any other feats that grant spells and SLA are now available on a whim.
- Open minded gives a ton of floating skill points.
- Feats like Frozen Berserker give you whatever immunities you need at the moment.
- Maneuvers can still be acquired at a moment's notice for all the utility they add.
- Bind vestige for picking up binder abilities
- Incarnum Feats for even MORE flexibility
- That feat that gives you a level 1 psionic power can be nice too and opens psionic feats.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you want them doing it as a free action. That means they can do it in the middle of other actions. Who knows what sort of wonky rules issues that would cause?

[Renen]

Ok... maybe at the start of the round they can auto-pick all their feats again.
I wonder if in addition to nixing spellcasting, if getting maneuvers should be disallowed too. Because that would make them like an initiator, just better in every way. As for incarnum... that MAY not be as OP?

[Troacctid]

Shape Soulmeld has no provision for losing the meld if you lose the feat. That means you can take the feat ten times, get a soulmeld in every chakra slot, and have them there permanently.

[Grod_The_Giant]

Ok... maybe at the start of the round they can auto-pick all their feats again.
I wonder if in addition to nixing spellcasting, if getting maneuvers should be disallowed too. Because that would make them like an initiator, just better in every way. As for incarnum... that MAY not be as OP?
It would probably be best to disallow any feat that grants access to a subsystem. I'd keep Incarnum out too, as freely-shifting melds makes for another "like the normal classes but better" situation. (Made worse by all the character-level-based aspects of meldshaping).

It's worth being careful about all X/day abilities. It might be best to have a pool of daily uses that can be applied to any feat.

The other problem with an idea like this is bookkeeping, which becomes nightmarish if you need to remember hundreds of potentially-useful feats.

[OldTrees1]

The bookkeeping would be solved by diminishing returns from additional bookkeeping.


There would be limits to this Fighter. While they have Skills and Melee locked down, Aerial combat would require resorting to ranged combat which can be shut down.

[Troacctid]

The bookkeeping would be solved by diminishing returns from additional bookkeeping.


There would be limits to this Fighter. While they have Skills and Melee locked down, Aerial combat would require resorting to ranged combat which can be shut down.

That or taking a feat like Animal Devotion that gives them flight. Which they can totally do whenever they feel like it.

[gooddragon1]

Not just not as a free action, make it not an action at all >:3.

Freely shifting attack and damage potential to the maximum as needed. Allow them to shift... everything (except class levels).

Need to make a reflex save? Good thing you maxed dexterity. Time for a search check? Perfect time to have max ranks in search, int maxed, skill focus, and any other relevant feats. Need to do a reflex save and then a will save immediately afterwards? Good thing you suddenly have the best stats you can get for both exactly as you need them.

EDIT: You're firing a bow? Well, it's a good thing that you have the strength to avoid a penalty to attack rolls with that +9 composite bow but when it comes time to roll the attack roll your dex is maxed and then your strength is maxed again when you roll damage (I know the first two would have a conflict but just "roll" with it :D).

[Qwertystop]

I'd note that I don't think they'd be better at initiating than the main classes. They could have any first-level maneuver, but a lot of what's past that has prerequisites, which means tying up more feats to get the prerequisites, and thus not having any other feats that would be useful for that attack (or defense in the rest of the round, if we're limiting it to once per round as suggested).

[sideswipe]

I'd note that I don't think they'd be better at initiating than the main classes. They could have any first-level maneuver, but a lot of what's past that has prerequisites, which means tying up more feats to get the prerequisites, and thus not having any other feats that would be useful for that attack (or defense in the rest of the round, if we're limiting it to once per round as suggested).

expanding on this they could only ever have up to 5th level manoeuvres.


a fighter that can change feats at any time but after 15 mins of meditation and exercise would be much more balanced. and would make them tier 3, as long as it is any feat they qualify for.
if they use this to obtain spells/powers/soulmelds/equivelent of any sort they can only have up to equal their int modifier, and need the required int to cast the spell. they may only cast one spell/other each day equal to every point of int modifier each day.
when they change feats they lose ALL benefits they ever had of gaining the feats they previously had.

e.g. with int 14 you can prepare as many spells each day as you want of 4th level or lower, but in the entire day you may only cast 2 spells.
powers, and any other "spell emulating abilities" count against this daily amount.

say with powers they gain PP equal to int score, manifester level = to hd.
essentia is 1 per int mod
you see where i'm going with it.

the main draw would still then be the fighters melee or other normal abilities, whilst giving them a couple of spells to augment it if they dump a few feats in.

[Psyren]

Question: how good would a fighter be if you changed him completely?

Just as a thought I had: Say you keep the fighter the same with 2 changes:
1) His bonus feats can be any feat he qualifies for.
2) He can change his feats as a free action every round.

Only limitation to 2 would be no getting spells (like those builds that get you lvl 9 spells via only feats)

If you want to give this kind of thing a test run, a 14th-level Martial Master Fighter (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/martial-master) in PF can change a combat feat as a free action.

[illyahr]

I picked up the idea for Wildcard Feats from a system called Iron Heroes. The Fighter can change his fighter bonus feats at the beginning of each day. Keeps him slightly more versatile.

[EyethatBinds]

Give the fighter Spot, Listen, and Search as class skills, perhaps a few more such as selecting one or two Knowledge skills. Int+6 per level for skill points.

Improved Weapon Focus
Prerequisite: Fighter 3rd
Effect: Fighter gains +1 to attack with all weapons either ranged or melee (player's choice). This feat stacks with Weapon Focus and subsequent feats for attack bonuses. This feat may only be taken once.

Improved Weapon Specialization
Prerequisite: Fighter 9th
Effect: Fighter gains +2 to damage rolls with all weapons either ranged or melee (player's choice. The feat stacks with Weapon Specialization and subsequent feats for damage bonuses. This feat may only be taken once.

Essentially, just a bunch more feats that boost how awesome Fighters are that would seem unbalanced for any other class.

[Renen]

Now... what would happen if those feats stayed as "only fighter feats" but were truly a free action? So you can change them between rolling to hit and rolling damage?

[Extra Anchovies]

For this to work you'd need to ban certain sorts of feats. Metamagic, Incarnum, Metapsionic, Devotion, Reserve, and Metashadow would all have to go. Most fighter feats are also general feats, so maybe limit them to Psionic, General, Tactical, and Style feats?

[Seerow]

For this to work you'd need to ban certain sorts of feats. Metamagic, Incarnum, Metapsionic, Devotion, Reserve, and Metashadow would all have to go. Most fighter feats are also general feats, so maybe limit them to Psionic, General, Tactical, and Style feats?

But if the goal is to make a high tier fighter, taking away all possible feats that can grant high tier abilities kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

[Vhaidara]

But if the goal is to make a high tier fighter, taking away all possible feats that can grant high tier abilities kind of defeats the purpose, doesn't it?

The problem is that if you leave those in, then a standard Wizard build tacks on two levels of Fighter, because now you can suddenly have a reserve feat, or exactly the metamagic you need as well as Arcane Thesis with the spell you're casting. See the problem?

[Seerow]

The problem is that if you leave those in, then a standard Wizard build tacks on two levels of Fighter, because now you can suddenly have a reserve feat, or exactly the metamagic you need as well as Arcane Thesis with the spell you're casting. See the problem?

And because of that you are banning the fighter from being able to pick up all of the nice things from Incarnum, Devotion feats, Binding feats, Maneuver Feats, and other potentially very useful options or even the magic feats he may be able to use. See the problem?


But yes, giving wizards at will access to free changing unrestricted feats is bad. If for no other reason than because they could take spell mastery and signature spell to spontaneously cast whatever spell is in their spellbook at any time, nevermind metamagic shenanigans. So solve that problem specifically. Don't hamstring the single classed fighter out of fear for what a Fighter2/Wizard18 could do.

[Vhaidara]

And because of that you are banning the fighter from being able to pick up all of the nice things from Incarnum, Devotion feats, Binding feats, Maneuver Feats, and other potentially very useful options or even the magic feats he may be able to use. See the problem?

Pesonally, I would just ban out things the fighter can't use natively. Metagmagic, anything requiring spells, etc. That should be manageable damage control on multiclass abuse without actually hurting people who want to play Fighters.

I would also probably limit them somehow on Shape Soulmelds/Open Chakras, to keep the from outdoing Incarnum at Incarnum.

[Metahuman1]

Maybe just add in a rule in the fighter class that says they can't multyclass with certain things? Like, Tier 1 and 2 classes? Kinda how Monk can't normally multyclass with Bard with out some serious work?

Just a thought.

[OldTrees1]

I notice I am confused.

If the feats are chosen at the beginning of the round as a free action and limited to non-caster feats, then we end up with an OP Tier 3 Fighter.

So if our goal is Tier 3, then we don't need to relax the restrictions on the feats, if our goal is Tier 2 then we obviously need to relax the restriction since spells are required for Tier 2.

So I am confused.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Maybe just add in a rule in the fighter class that says they can't multyclass with certain things? Like, Tier 1 and 2 classes? Kinda how Monk can't normally multyclass with Bard with out some serious work?

Just a thought.

Or give the ability to them at a high enough level that it is unattractive to casters (like 10). My first thought is that this is a bit of a rules headache follow by a massive paperwork headache. Limiting the feats transferable would make the ability manageable.

[Vhaidara]

Maybe just add in a rule in the fighter class that says they can't multyclass with certain things? Like, Tier 1 and 2 classes? Kinda how Monk can't normally multyclass with Bard with out some serious work?

Just a thought.

Well, that's actually Monk not being able to multiclass at all and being Lawful only. And I wouldn't want to tear Fighter out of Gish builds. It's just that Fighter should be getting feats that help him fight, not use magic. He's not a magic user, to use what I believe is OD&D terms.

[The Vagabond]

The problem is that if you leave those in, then a standard Wizard build tacks on two levels of Fighter, because now you can suddenly have a reserve feat, or exactly the metamagic you need as well as Arcane Thesis with the spell you're casting. See the problem?
Personally, the best method I can say to prevent dipping, make it a 5th level Fighter ability. Or a 7th level one, or... Point is, at a point where it'll stop being a decent dip.

[Deadline]

Or give the ability to them at a high enough level that it is unattractive to casters (like 10). My first thought is that this is a bit of a rules headache follow by a massive paperwork headache. Limiting the feats transferable would make the ability manageable.

Or drop in language like this, so you don't punish low-level fighters:


Super Fighter: A Fighter dedicated to his path is capable of leveraging his skills and experiences to handle nearly any situation. At 1st level, in addition to his combat training, a Fighter can improvise and adapt to a situation very quickly. A Fighter with this ability may freely change his bonus feats at the start of each round in combat.

A Fighter who chooses to multiclass loses this adaptability and ability to improvise due to having to split his focus. However, with enough dedication to the Fighter class, he can retain this ability. As long as he has at least 10 levels in Fighter, a multiclass Fighter retains or regains this ability.

[Troacctid]

That makes every Fighter build identical.

[Metahuman1]

No more so then every Warblade, crusader, Factotum, Swordsage, Bard, Psykick Warrior, Duskblade, Binder, Dread Necromancer, Wildshape/Mystic Ranger, Shugenja, Totemist, Incarnate, Beguiler or Dragonfire Adept is Identical.

[OldTrees1]

No more so then every Warblade, crusader, Factotum, Swordsage, Bard, Psykick Warrior, Duskblade, Binder, Dread Necromancer, Wildshape/Mystic Ranger, Shugenja, Totemist, Incarnate, Beguiler or Dragonfire Adept is Identical.

Um. Yes more identical by a couple orders of magnitude. If Fighter is able to change their feats at will to any non-caster feats they qualify for, then all their skills are [HD+3 ranks] when used and they will reformat their combat feats to the set the situation demands(including buying skill tricks). Only Race, Traits, Flaws, ACFs, Ability Score, and Equipment would differ.

Considering how much of a Fighter's capabilities are determined by skills and feats, the various Fighters would be theoretically very similar in ability. (Not similar in use of course since characters have character)

[Metahuman1]

I assume that this was with out the notion of cutting off feats that allow access to magic and other subsystems, since, you know, with out those, this whole thing kinda fails hard.

[OldTrees1]

I assume that this was with out the notion of cutting off feats that allow access to magic and other subsystems, since, you know, with out those, this whole thing kinda fails hard.

I assume likewise. I think something to that effect was even said in the OP.

[Metahuman1]

Apologies, that was a typo. I Was trying to say that I was assuming that this would involve, not cutting off access to things that grant magics and subsystem access as otherwise, at very best, you make the fighter a low Tier 4 character who can hit stuff. Kinda. Most of the time.

[OldTrees1]

Apologies, that was a typo. I Was trying to say that I was assuming that this would involve, not cutting off access to things that grant magics and subsystem access as otherwise, at very best, you make the fighter a low Tier 4 character who can hit stuff. Kinda. Most of the time.

Really? Max Class Skill ranks with an extra +5 bonus to all skills(even ones normally cross class) AND having combat prowess(including reasonable flight) is low Tier 4?

[P.F.]

Question: how good would a fighter be if you changed him completely?

Just as a thought I had: Say you keep the fighter the same with 2 changes:
1) His bonus feats can be any feat he qualifies for.
2) He can change his feats as a free action every round.

Only limitation to 2 would be no getting spells (like those builds that get you lvl 9 spells via only feats)

So very abuseable. Broken, even. Every bit as bad as an un-adjudicated R.A.W. magic system. Have you seen the Feat Compendium?

If it were limited to fighter feats, or even just combat feats, then it would be harder to abuse in deep, game-breaking ways. It might be fun to play a fighter who gets all the combat styles and can seamlessly flow between them, definitely more fun than the current limited options. It might be interesting to map this out in blocks of feat line progressions or groups of related feats (like WF + WSpec + GrWF + GrWSpec) to see how the abilities would fit (or not fit) together.

Since we're only talking about "bonus feats" here and not all feats, all fighters would only be ~ 3/4ths identical, far less than the 100+ times more identical than any other class as mentioned above.

[OldTrees1]

Since we're only talking about "bonus feats" here and not all feats, all fighters would only be ~ 3/4ths identical, far less than the 100+ times more identical than any other class as mentioned above.

For any given activity a 12th level fighter will have 7 unlocked feats and some fraction of 5 locked feats that are relevant to that task. 7:1 < 100:1 < 7:0. However the 100:1 was meant as hyperbole.

Concrete example: 12 level fighter might get Skill Focus(Knowledge Religion) with a locked feat. But they are more likely to not expend the feat on that when it only takes 5 unlocked feats to get 15 ranks, a +1, and Skill focus for a whopping +19 from unlocked feats which they can reassign to Knowledge Nature next.

[P.F.]

For any given activity a 12th level fighter will have 7 unlocked feats and some fraction of 5 locked feats that are relevant to that task.

Yes, this is the part that interests me. What 5 feats would one select to define the build ... certainly not your skill bonus feats, but perhaps feats that grant spells or spell-like abilities. Necropolitan seems like a popular choice although there could be advantages to turning that one on/off on a per-round basis. I guess there's a few like Improved Initiative that are hard to pass up.

For the 7 interchangeable feats I had assumed one would usually include the ->->->GrWSpec: Whatever-I'm-Wielding, but that only leaves a 3-long chain to select a second power. I would want more than that, say, ->->Improved Precise Shot + Rapid Shot + Manyshot.

I had assumed that with the ability to swap bonus feats one would be able to have all the feats needed for just about any build, but that is beginning to look like less and less the case.

Perhaps there is a different set of 7 feats which could make one more useful in combat ? Out-of-combat the +5 untyped bonus to any skill is clearly going to be useful ... did I understand that there is a feat which allows one to reallocate skill points? I don't have my books in front of me and the feats on the SRD are a steaming load of meh.

[OldTrees1]

Yes, this is the part that interests me. What 5 feats would one select to define the build ... certainly not your skill bonus feats, but perhaps feats that grant spells or spell-like abilities. Necropolitan seems like a popular choice although there could be advantages to turning that one on/off on a per-round basis. I guess there's a few like Improved Initiative that are hard to pass up.

For the 7 interchangeable feats I had assumed one would usually include the ->->->GrWSpec: Whatever-I'm-Wielding, but that only leaves a 3-long chain to select a second power. I would want more than that, say, ->->Improved Precise Shot + Rapid Shot + Manyshot.

I had assumed that with the ability to swap bonus feats one would be able to have all the feats needed for just about any build, but that is beginning to look like less and less the case.

Perhaps there is a different set of 7 feats which could make one more useful in combat ? Out-of-combat the +5 untyped bonus to any skill is clearly going to be useful ... did I understand that there is a feat which allows one to reallocate skill points? I don't have my books in front of me and the feats on the SRD are a steaming load of meh.

Hard to say what those 5 feats would be. Probably not the Necropolitian template since templates are not feats. Things like Improved Initiative are not useful after rolling initiative so it would not be selected either. (I would walk around with Improved Initiative and other +Initative feats as by default unlocked feats to be swapped after Initiative order is determined)

From my own forays into Fighters, I would conclude that the Weapon Focus line would be avoided entirely when possible unless they could be swapped out between Attack roll, Hit, and damage. Otherwise they would simply be in the way of things like On-Hit effects, attack options or multipliers.

So for a Spiked Chain I would pick these 7:
EWP, Power Attack, Improved Bullrush, Knockback, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Knockdown.

If I were able to swap between Attack, Hit, and Damage then things would change a bit. But that seems too crazy for an example.


PS: Open Mindx3 is where those skill points come from in my example (gaining it as a class skill is yet another feat). The +5 is from Skill Focus and another feat.

[GoodbyeSoberDay]

Question: how good would a fighter be if you changed him completely?

Just as a thought I had: Say you keep the fighter the same with 2 changes:
1) His bonus feats can be any feat he qualifies for.
2) He can change his feats as a free action every round.

Only limitation to 2 would be no getting spells (like those builds that get you lvl 9 spells via only feats)In this original iteration, it seems like one could do the following:

1. Free action: Obtain Martial Study for White Raven Tactics (along with necessary prereqs).
2. Do a full round's worth of actions.
3. Swift action: WRT yourself, get another turn.
4. Free actions: Switch out Martial Study for something else. Then switch it back in. Let's call this the homebrew chaos shuffle. Since it's a new feat, the maneuver is not expended.
5. Repeat 2-4 ad nauseum for arbitrary actions.

[Psyren]

Note that WotC ruled you can't WRT yourself. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070731a)

I know, FAQ isn't RAW and all that, but 3.5 lacks a blanket rule like PF's whereby you count as your own ally so it's still bitterly contested.

[atemu1234]

Note that WotC ruled you can't WRT yourself. (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ask/20070731a)

I know, FAQ isn't RAW and all that, but 3.5 lacks a blanket rule like PF's whereby you count as your own ally so it's still bitterly contested.

To be fair, it also says you can't adventure during pregnancy and after.

[OldTrees1]

In this original iteration, it seems like one could do the following:

1. Free action: Obtain Martial Study for White Raven Tactics (along with necessary prereqs).
2. Do a full round's worth of actions.
3. Swift action: WRT yourself, get another turn.
4. Free actions: Switch out Martial Study for something else. Then switch it back in. Let's call this the homebrew chaos shuffle. Since it's a new feat, the maneuver is not expended.
5. Repeat 2-4 ad nauseum for arbitrary actions.

Why don't we all just accept the reasonable assumption that swapping something out and then back in will not recharge its limited uses?

[P.F.]

Why don't we all just accept the reasonable assumption that swapping something out and then back in will not recharge its limited uses?

I second the motion.

[Renen]

That would be a reasonable assumption. In effect if you have something thats "1 per day" for example. You get one per day, even if you swap it out and swap it back in. because you already used it for that one day.