Doppelganger build

[X_TheLostOne_X]

greetings everyone i am making a Doppelganger (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Doppelgangers_(Race)) were i the LA have been reduced from +8 to +4.
i was thinking of making a pure shapeshift character that turns into strong beings.
as such getting Master Of Many (http://eberronunlimited.wikidot.com/master-of-many-forms) sounded like a good idea.
and perhaps i can get the group to agree to change Doppelganger's Change Shape (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Change_Shape) to Alternate Form (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Alternate_Form).
with would be a small change that would cause extreme changes.
then there's a few levels of warshaper (http://therafimrpg.wikidot.com/warshaper) to get even more immunity.

as a limit i could do like Druid, and "HD limit as CL divided by 2.

a world of information about my group, we got seveal people who make extreme builds.

our group is currently at level 10.

i would like some ideas/feedback to what i said so far :).

[gawwy]

when you sat you can

"as a limit i could do like Druid, and "HD limit as CL divided by 2."

can you use that to qualify for master of many forms?

is the 4 la actuall HD? so you would have 4 bab 4d8 hp and 7*(2+int) skills?

if the answer to the above are all yes then go dopple ganger 4/momf10/wildshape ranger6

you could only get to 18 hd beasties but the early start would be awesome.

take the trophy collector feat for fun.

[X_TheLostOne_X]

the druid thing was a suggestion to make it balanced (as changing form to a high dragon should be prevented.)
druids got a limit for Wild shape called "The new form’s Hit Dice can’t exceed the character’s druid level."

my suggestion was to make a similar limit.

now that i think about it, i guess i "should" be unable to choose master of many forms as Wild shape is not the same as Change Shape however wild shape is based on alternate form.

so with two non-official changes being.
1. Doppelganger LA adjustment changed from 8 to 4
2. Doppelganger's Change Shape to Alternate Form.

the idea is to create a character that can perfectly mimic monsters to use there strengths and weaknesses as i so desire still with the personality of a Doppelganger in mind.

as far as i see there's two things i don't get from the monsters i mimic.
1. HP
2. Supernatural abilities

ps. i'll look into your suggestions.
pss. i love the Trophy Collector feat! would really add texture to the character.
wild shaping ranger? were is that from?
oh and this have still not been approved yet as i plan to hear what people have to say here first.

[gawwy]

wildshape ranger is an unearthed arcana variant found here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#ranger) it swaps the rangers combat feats for fast movement at level one and wildshape as a druid at level 5. probably the better entry to momf as its full bab and 6 skills per level. no casting but as MOMF doesn't advance casting that's OK.

I actually plated a changeling wildshap ranger5/momf x for a while used the trophy collector feat and everything was a fun character. had the shape change fluff your looking for and no la to contend with. so that's my real advice use changeling and a bunch of levels of wildshape ranger to enter.

[rockdeworld]

Your post is a bit confusing. Dopplegangers don't have LA +8; they have 4 RHD and LA +4, for base ECL 8.

If your DM allows LA +0, and Change Shape to count as Wild Shape for MoMF (and assuming the 'your level as HD limit'), I agree with Gawwy on going Doppleganger 4/MoMF 10/Wildshape Ranger 6. It would be high power due to your great versatility and choices of forms, so your group probably wouldn't be okay with that unless they're used to playing at a high power/optimization level.

[X_TheLostOne_X]

oh they certainly are.
so far i've had 5 characters die because they could not keep up, and i'd like to avoid that.
the underlying issue is that one of our roleplayers have played dnd for about 10-12 years with means optimized builds comes natural to him.

we have tried a resolve of debuffing overpowered players ones but we/i came to a conclusion that we should never have to debuff a player for the sake of balance as it would ruin everything.

so i'm making a cool shape shifting character that i can play and adapt to the game as i see fit.

by the way so far we're only level 10.
i guess the build would be Doppleganger 4/Wildshape Ranger 1/MoMF 5 ?
or would you say Doppleganger 4/MoMF 6?

[rockdeworld]

Some debuffing is normal in the form of banning the most overpowered options. And level 10 is the point when mundane builds start having to work hard to keep up with casters, so you're probably starting to feel that.

To that end, I'd say get as many MoMF levels as soon as possible. Wildshape Ranger doesn't get Wild Shape until level 5 (as the druid) if I understand correctly, so 1 level of that is useless. On that note, if your group is really high powered, I'd instead go Doppleganger 4/MoMF 10/Warshaper 5/X 1.

And my unsolicited advice (ignore it freely) is to get that guy to whom optimization comes naturally to help you with the details of your character. Have fun!

[icefractal]

By RAW, Doppelganger doesn't even qualify for MoMF. It's not an unreasonable house-rule to allow it, especially in a high-power game, but check that the DM is allowing it.

That said, Doppelganger 4/MoMF 7/Warshaper 5 is not a bad start. Round it out with more MoMF, some Mindspy, Chameleon, or maybe some Swordsage. The key breakpoints are:

MoMF 7 - When you get special qualities. Beeline for this, it makes a huge difference.
The rest of MoMF is good too, giving you more forms, but definitely get at least 7.

Warshaper 1 - Gets Morphic Weapons, probably the most significant ability for you.
Warshaper 3 - Morphic Body and Morphic Reach are nice too. You don't care about the fast healing because you have Troll regeneration already from MoMF 7.
Warshaper 5 - Flashmorph is nice.

Mindspy - No specific breakpoints; it gets progressively better each level. This might not actually be the strongest option available, but it's pretty fun and well suited for a Doppelganger.

Chameleon 2 - You get the floating bonus feat. Especially fun for a MoMF, because you can use it to take Assume Supernatural Ability for a different ability each day.

[X_TheLostOne_X]

quite some good advice :D

ok so sets see...

4 levels of Doppelganger and 6 levels for classes and 3 feats.
Warshaper 1 (the first level is the most essential)
MoMF 5 (going to level this to 7 to get those bonuses)
wildshape ranger 0 (i'll look future into it as i'm still not all that familiar with ranger.)

the 3 feats would be Alertness, Endurance (requirements for MoMF) not entirely sure about the 3rd yet.

after level 12 i could take an other level of warshaper as level 2 is still pretty useful, and then the rest towards wildshape ranger, ultimately leading to the build of.
Doppelganger 4/Warshaper 1/MoMF 5/ MoMF 2/Warshaper 1/wildshape ranger 7/

how does that look?
by the way I've never found reach very useful except of course of those if 5 feet is enough to not provoke an attack of opportunity?

mindspy sounded pretty funny but feels like i'd have to dedicate myself to that if i took it.

by the way currently i am not feeling much pressure as a level 10 due to being spellcaster druid.
making this as preparation in case my druid dies, she was pretty close when the experienced player started shooting us with a very optimized ranger build, pumping 3-4 attacks out per round, and i would have been dead if not for DM protection and a 150% powered tortoise shell shield on my back.

PS. in our group we pass the DM position along switching so that everyone can be player and DM :D

[rockdeworld]

the experienced player started shooting us with a very optimized ranger build
Found your problem. It sounds like the problem isn't that you're playing weak characters, but rather that you have a killer DM. That's something to talk to him about. Optimized PCs do not good enemies make.

At level 10 you should have 4 feats: level 1, 3, 6, and 9. RHD grant feats like class levels do. As a meleer, consider Improved Grapple or Improved Trip (and their prerequisites). If you do, that 6th level of MoMF becomes more important at level 10 than Warshaper 1.

Every level of warshaper is good for one reason or another, just like MoMF. Level 2 gives you +4 STR/CON, and I've heard that Reach Is King (especially if you're tripping/grappling).

Your suggested build looks weak at the top end. I don't see any reason to take Wildshape Ranger when you already have "wild shape".

[X_TheLostOne_X]

could i get more information on this topic of "killer DM"?

and i guess i agree with the wild shape ranger, but with wild shape, original form stats matters little at less it adds to health and hit dice as all others are changed by the new form's yes?

i guess grappling someone and tossing them a few miles with strenght+grapple sounds fun.
or just squeezing the life out of them, works too.

[rockdeworld]

could i get more information on this topic of "killer DM"?
A killer DM is someone who gets the party killed because of unreasonably-tough encounters, a grudge, or some other reason. See also here (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/KillerGameMaster).

Anyone who makes an optimized build an throws it at an unoptimized party is a killer DM.

[X_TheLostOne_X]

i feel desperate, i want to defend him but i know you people are right xD...guess that's a good thing huh?...
either way.

the problem is often that when he puts hes mind to something, there is no changing it.
he gets bored of a town? "storm out in a random direction at max run speed"
one of our other gm's decide to throw him a bone(matter of speech) and he'll he starts going into a frenzy. (likely the gm's fault tho but that situation ended with me saving a party member and gm stepping in to save me with great irony.)
and many others


...i guess what i am saying is that he is not doing it intentionally but it is rather the extreme difference in skill in the group.

thanks for the help, i'm not sure what to do about him so for now i'll let things slide as they are. (we are bound to get good at some point)

there's of course the positive aspect of what he's doing.
he's forcing us to be innovative and think fast.

[rockdeworld]

i feel desperate, i want to defend him but i know you people are right xD
It seems to me that there's no need to argue or confront him. Just because you identified the problem doesn't mean you have to change him. You could also change yourself so that it's not a problem any more, which is what you have been doing by asking the Playground's help building an optimized character. Or even accept that it's a problem and move on, trying to enjoy the game any way. My point is, you've got options.

Oh, and I forgot about this:

original form stats matters little at less it adds to health and hit dice as all others are changed by the new form's yes?
Yes, for a mundane build like the one you've been talking about. Str/Dex/Con are all changed, but HP/HD/Int/Wis/Cha remain the same.