Intentionally Failing a Skill Check?

[Myzz]

Can you still choose to intentionally fail a skill check?

If so, do you count that as a roll of 1 for opposed checks?

Specifically, making Dexterity Checks for Initiative. Can you just choose to go last? And if so, if 2 or more party members were to choose to go last can they determine the order of when they want to go?

Obviously I am asking this with the idea of better coordinating party tactics to effect synergy between specific characters.

From previous thread about Lightfoot Halflings hiding behind Larger party members to gain range advantage in combat...

Lightfoot Halfing shortbow wielding Assassin has teamed up with a nearly 7 ft tall half Orc Battle master.

They both choose to fail their iniative. The Half Orc will act followed by the Halfling. Halfling starts combat from stealth. Half Orc moves into combat and attacks, if he was not previously moved to and attacked. After Half orc makes his attacks, halfling plinks one of the enemies critting with his sneak attack and poisoning said enemy. Then halfling moves behind Half Orc uses him to block los, and as bonus action hides. Said enemy is at disadvantage to keep track of halfling due to being poisoned. Enemy loses halfling who is successfully sneaking.

Next Round enemy attack Half Orc, and misses due to being at disadvantage while poisoned. Half Orc attacks and hits. Halfling steps out from behind Half Orc on the right, plinking enemy again with a critted sneak attack, and applying poison again, moves behind Half Orc and hides, gaining stealth since enemy is still at disadvantage.

Same next round except that to keep surprise up, Halfling does an acrobatic manuever by running up his friend the Half Orc's backside before firing into the enemies face, he does a backflip off his buddy, surprising the enemy so again getting s critted sneak attack and again applying more poison, and hides again behind him...

In the example I used one extremely tough bad guy, but could work on multiples in from of the Half Orc. All of whom would have an opportunity to notice the Halfling attempt to hide behind his buddy.

I also used a liberal interpretation of the word "surprise". From PHB 189 "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of an encounter." Which takes away their action and reaction . There not being a surprise round anylonger, I take the meaning of surprise to be anytime a creature doesn't notice a threat. Furthermore having no idea where a threat could possibly come from, implies being unaware of said threat. Doesn't seem attack coming. Although they expect the attack they are unaware of its nature.

Part of my reasoning behind this would be the more normal example of Rogue sneaks into position behind bad guy, group comes up towards bad guy who can hear them coming and notices them. Group engages bad guy, and rogue sneak attacks bad guy who was unaware of said attack and is surprised by the attack, but was not "surprised" by the threat of an attack.

The halfling of course does not just stay behind the big Half Orc he drops to the ground and wiggles his way to the side and attacks from enemies flank or even rear (if he has the speed and movement for it while sneaking)

Said duo could even have a third melee that the halfling teams up with, and he just randomly uses either or to break los with enemies and get into a surprise condition.

I am looking for examples of where RAW says no. With citation please.

[Easy_Lee]

Can't you just hold your action until whatever initiative order? Used to be able to do that and just delay your turn.

As far as the skill check, either do nothing at all or roll the skill to see how good a job you do at doing it poorly. On a natural 1 you somehow succeed anyway.

[metaridley18]

Can't you just hold your action until whatever initiative order? Used to be able to do that and just delay your turn.

As far as the skill check, either do nothing at all or roll the skill to see how good a job you do at doing it poorly. On a natural 1 you somehow succeed anyway.

There's no way to alter initiative order in 5E. I think that's a design choice to speed up play. You can take a readied action, but you can't move your actual turn.

[Easy_Lee]

There's no way to alter initiative order in 5E. I think that's a design choice to speed up play. You can take a readied action, but you can't move your actual turn.

That's odd. Seems like a reasonable house rule, though.

[metaridley18]

That's odd. Seems like a reasonable house rule, though.

Sure, if the DM doesn't care. As a DM it's REALLY NICE that the turn order will never change, so I don't have to worry about shuffling index cards or what have you. Although I recently learned about the "everyone higher than monsters go in any order, monsters go, everyone lower than monsters go in any order system" and I'm tempted.

Currently I roll for every individual enemy so that neither side gets shafted by action clumping, which is a lot of tracking.

[Feldarove]

As 5e is the king of "Up to your DM", I think you could choose to take a 1 on initiative.

WHICH!!!! ....is a lot different than dropping where you are on initiative to a certain spot. That's where things get messy.

[eastmabl]

That's odd. Seems like a reasonable house rule, though.

Holding an action is presently a way for you to take a reaction, provided that (1) the conditions to trigger held action occur and (2) your held action can be completed as a reaction - for example, you couldn't move and take an action.

It is an outgrowth of shenanigans by players who would hold their turn in initiative order to try to avoid suffering from the final round of a spell by waiting until the spell is over. (For example, if the character (initiative 10) is suffering from 10 ongoing damage per turn, and the spell ends on the caster's initiative (7), the player could hold his action until initiative 6, avoid the damage, and take his full turn).

[Easy_Lee]

Holding an action is presently a way for you to take a reaction, provided that (1) the conditions to trigger held action occur and (2) your held action can be completed as a reaction - for example, you couldn't move and take an action.

It is an outgrowth of shenanigans by players who would hold their turn in initiative order to try to avoid suffering from the final round of a spell by waiting until the spell is over. (For example, if the character (initiative 10) is suffering from 10 ongoing damage per turn, and the spell ends on the caster's initiative (7), the player could hold his action until initiative 6, avoid the damage, and take his full turn).

Gotcha. Seems like that could be avoided just by having effects end on initiative orders rather than turns, though. That's what I did for a homebrew.

[Justin Sane]

Although I recently learned about the "everyone higher than monsters go in any order, monsters go, everyone lower than monsters go in any order system" and I'm tempted.Like in Numenera? From my experience, it just boils down to "our turn/their turn".

[Person_Man]

I always give my players the option of team initiative. All of the players go first in whatever order the players choose, then all of the monsters go second in whatever order the monsters choose. (Unless the players are surprised/ambushed/etc, in which case its reversed). It speeds up combat, encourages teamwork, makes Dexterity (the god stat) less important, and its easy for me to add more/better monsters to encounters to compensate for whatever optimization benefits they might get from it.

[Feldarove]

I always give my players the option of team initiative. All of the players go first in whatever order the players choose, then all of the monsters go second in whatever order the monsters choose. (Unless the players are surprised/ambushed/etc, in which case its reversed). It speeds up combat, encourages teamwork, makes Dexterity (the god stat) less important, and its easy for me to add more/better monsters to encounters to compensate for whatever optimization benefits they might get from it.

This is a good example of devaluing a fundamental part of the game

and it really not making a difference.

[eastmabl]

This is a good example of devaluing a fundamental part of the game

and it really not making a difference.

I don't know if "initiative order" is a fundamental part of the game, especially since the rules for it have changed through most editions of the game. Remember weapon speed? I don't in D&D, but I hated it in Exalted. Person_Man's rule makes it simpler for everyone to sit down and have some fun - you don't have to worry about not casting a spell because your buddy's in the way - he does his thing, then you do yours, and everyone has fun. (Well, except for the monster - he's dead).

An Aside:
This is pretty similar to the way that combat is handled in Dungeon World - the players go in the order that makes sense, and then the monsters go. Anything that makes D&D more like Dungeon World is cool in my book.

As a DM, I'm prone to buggering up the initiative order at least once a fight, so I just might adopt this in my own 5e games. The only thing I'm afraid of is that this might lead the game to feel like a game of MtG - the players' deck goes, they cast their spells and make their attacks - and then the DM's deck gets to go.

[Easy_Lee]

This is a good example of devaluing a fundamental part of the game

and it really not making a difference.

Way to insult another player's house rule without explaining why you don't like it.

[Isyndel]

Way to insult another player's house rule without explaining why you don't like it.

I'm not sure he was insulting it as much as pointing out that initiative, while a core part of combat, isn't really crucial to combat itself.

[Louro]

I'm not sure he was insulting it as much as pointing out that initiative, while a core part of combat, isn't really crucial to combat itself.

Yes it is. Going first is a big big advantage as you can get to the better position, negate an enemy turn, apply conditions...
VS just one big foe is not much, but against a couple of enemies with nasty tricks... can mean the difference between a normal or a deadly encounter.

[Tenmujiin]

Yes it is. Going first is a big big advantage as you can get to the better position, negate an enemy turn, apply conditions...
VS just one big foe is not much, but against a couple of enemies with nasty tricks... can mean the difference between a normal or a deadly encounter.

All the more reason to get rid of it IMO since it is one of the most swingy rolls that exists in this edition, having it make such a difference to encounter difficulties can mean the difference between a deadly encounter and an unavoidable TPK.

Personally I (and the other DM in my group) roll once for each set if similar monsters (if an encounter includes 3 orcs and an ettin the orcs share initiative count) and each player rolls, I then allow any players that have no monsters between their turns to act in the order they chose and likewise for monsters. It keeps the dice rolling but speeds up play as well as providing more tactical options to the players (and monsters).

[RedMage125]

I think you are being WAYYYYY to liberal in the use of the word "surprise".

By the rules, "surprised" is only a condition that applies during the first round of combat, and only if the enemy did not notice you at all, and thus does not get a turn in that first round. So once the first round is over, they are no longer surprised.

Example: Assassin gets the highest initiative at a 22, monster gets a 14, but is also surprised.

Round 1: Assassin goes, his attack is a Sneak Attack and a crit, monster does not get to act due to surprised condition.
Round 2: Assassin STILL goes before the monster, but sine the first round is over, monster is not surprised. So no auto-crit.

[Louro]

Personally I (and the other DM in my group) roll once for each set if similar monsters (if an encounter includes 3 orcs and an ettin the orcs share initiative count) and each player rolls, I then allow any players that have no monsters between their turns to act in the order they chose and likewise for monsters. It keeps the dice rolling but speeds up play as well as providing more tactical options to the players (and monsters).
I will test this next time, buy isn't it too powerful when the party faces only one foe?
And do they pick order for the first round and then stick to that order or do they pick order every round?

[Inglorin]

An Aside:
This is pretty similar to the way that combat is handled in Dungeon World - the players go in the order that makes sense, and then the monsters go. Anything that makes D&D more like Dungeon World is cool in my book.


No, it is not. Monsters don't get a turn in Dungeon World. There are no turns in Dungeon World. :smallsmile:

[Sjappo]

I like this variant, it is from fate iirc. I haven't tried it but it sounds cool. It's kind of like a tag-team.

Logic dictates the first to act. If no consensus can be reached then the one with the highest attribute, dex in dnd's case, goes first. He also decides who goes second. The second one decides who goes third and so on until every monster and player has made a turn. The last one in a round decides who goes first in the next round.

Initiative orde changes from round to round and makes it possible to set op nice combo's. Going first is nice, but going last can make you go first in the next round.

It sounds to me that it may introduce a nice tactical mini game. I could never convince my players to adapt it though.

[Tiber]

Huh. Our group kind of just assumed delaying was still in. I've been using it a lot with my (non-assassin) rogue. Sneak attack damage just makes up such a huge portion of a rogue's damage that it makes more sense to wait for an ally to move in.

[Myzz]

The biggest problem with ready is that it technically uses your reaction, which you dont get another of until the start of your next turn.

The assassin example is great and all but is not pertinent since the assassin, went in what is traditionally thought of as the surprise round. Which I agree is the typical way to play it.

However in this example it would be more like:
1. Player A (Assassin) sneaks into position behind BBEG (who is unaware that A is there)
2. Player B (Barbarian) sneak forward of his compatriots who are following him.
3. Player C (cleric) is attempting to sneak up following B, but fails miserably.
4. BBEG is now no longer surprised by C, and makes an active check and finds B as well
5. A waits for everyone to approach BBEG, he doesnt want to be the only one stuck in melee range after his turn after all.
6. BBEG pronounces B and C's impending doom as they engage in combat. BBEG attacks
7. B attacks, C attacks.
8. A attacks - and here is the dilemma, is BBEG surprised by A. IMO yes. Which means that surprise does NOT need to only be in the first round. SO what is surprise? And can an Assassin ever regain it?

The wording is "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of combat"

Which does imply that surprise is a condition separate from starting combat. Then follow the rules for being surprised at the beginning of combat. The question being does surprise ever really occur after combat has started? I believe so. Next question, can an asssassin maneuver himself as to acquire surprise during combat? Again I think so, but I see flip side. If you are unaware of the assassin sneaking up behind you while engaged in combat, then you are unaware of the threat that assassin imposes and therefore surprised.

The only real argument I see against it is very meta-gamey: That double an Assassins dmg in combat at level 3 which seems absurd.

In response I say a Monk can triple his at that level expending KI, A paladin can more than double by expending spell slots, whereas a fight has to wait till 5 and expends no resources to do so. The assassin in this case in order to gain surprise as an advantage would have to have the ability to do so and its very situational (open well lit areas being the bane to this tactic).

[Feldarove]

I'm not sure he was insulting it as much as pointing out that initiative, while a core part of combat, isn't really crucial to combat itself.

This is what I meant syndel. I actually really liked the idea. At first I thought 'no, that's too broken', but the more I thought about it, the more I liked the idea.

I love you personman, I hope you weren't offended!

[pwykersotz]

I always give my players the option of team initiative. All of the players go first in whatever order the players choose, then all of the monsters go second in whatever order the monsters choose. (Unless the players are surprised/ambushed/etc, in which case its reversed). It speeds up combat, encourages teamwork, makes Dexterity (the god stat) less important, and its easy for me to add more/better monsters to encounters to compensate for whatever optimization benefits they might get from it.

I started this three sessions ago. My players and I all love it. Though I don't let them automatically go first. Players roll initiative, Monsters roll a single initiative at the highest bonus. Players who beat the monsters go first, then monsters, then players, etc.

It leads to some awesome teamwork, and allows a player who is having a tough time deciding what to do the chance to think about it for a minute without slowing down the game. It does breed a little trouble in that one of my players keeps trying to retcon actions that have already happened by saying "I wanted to use my bonus action to buff him before he did that" but that's easily dealt with.

[Sjappo]

However in this example it would be more like:
1. Player A (Assassin) sneaks into position behind BBEG (who is unaware that A is there)
2. Player B (Barbarian) sneak forward of his compatriots who are following him.
3. Player C (cleric) is attempting to sneak up following B, but fails miserably.
4. BBEG is now no longer surprised by C, and makes an active check and finds B as well
5. A waits for everyone to approach BBEG, he doesnt want to be the only one stuck in melee range after his turn after all.
6. BBEG pronounces B and C's impending doom as they engage in combat. BBEG attacks
7. B attacks, C attacks.
8. A attacks - and here is the dilemma, is BBEG surprised by A. IMO yes. Which means that surprise does NOT need to only be in the first round. SO what is surprise? And can an Assassin ever regain it?

The wording is "Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of combat"

That's not how it works. The phb specifically states that you loose actions in the first round of combat (phb p.189 right column top).

So, in your example. Combat starts at 6 at the latest. At that point no one is surprised. The assassin lost his chance. Since there is no facing the assassin cannot sneak up on the BBEG,nor can surprise be regained. That would be pointless anyway since combat has started and the first round has come and gone.

So, in conclusion, the only way for the assassin to strike from surprise is to strike first, from stealth.

[Myzz]

That's not how it works. The phb specifically states that you loose actions in the first round of combat (phb p.189 right column top).

So, in your example. Combat starts at 6 at the latest. At that point no one is surprised. The assassin lost his chance. Since there is no facing the assassin cannot sneak up on the BBEG,nor can surprise be regained. That would be pointless anyway since combat has started and the first round has come and gone.

So, in conclusion, the only way for the assassin to strike from surprise is to strike first, from stealth.

Thats not what it says, it says IF:
"If you are surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends..."

You enter the first round of combat being surprised... as in having the condition surprised. Then since your surprised at the start of combat all this stuff occurs

PHB 189:
"The DM determines who might be surprised...

PHB 183:
"Surprising Foes. If the adventurers encounter a hostile creature or group, the DM determines whether the adventurers or their foes might be surprised when combat erupts..."

But that is in traveling section not Combat. So if traveling, surprise then combat those rules are as read/

PHB 194-195:
Its awefully silent saying only "When a creature can't see you, you have advantage on attack rolls against it".

Implying that you indeed do not have surprise because it does not say you. But doesn't the advantage imply that the target does not notice the threat until too late? therefore he was surprised?

[Celcey]

Hmm. I dunno about this rule. While I think it opens up a lot of possibilities for some really cool maneuvers, I dunno that I would be happy with the players just doing whatever they want. I might have them role, and allow certain players to switch places, but monsters would go in the order they rolled.