Vitality/Wound Points System in Actual Play

[Larkas]

Does anyone have experience with this variant subsystem in actual play? What effects does it have? What are its pros/cons?

On a related question, did SWSaga do away with it?

[Brookshw]

The only time I've used it was Star Wars d20 and it was sorta, meh, okay. Can be a bit grim and gritty so great for that type of game. The D&D version is slightly watered down but similar. I wouldn't ne opposed to using it, especially for an e6 game, or filing off the restriction of wound damage stopping at 0 for an especially gritty game.

[slade88green]

We are currently using it in the 3.5 game I am running. It seems to be working pretty well so far. A few things had to be modified, such as the diehard feat, but that's pretty easy to do. My players like the aspect of being staggered instead of just having no effect until your unconscious. It allows for them and their opponents to retreat from battle easier if things are not going their way. In several instances so far, it has allowed them to take and question prisoners where before they might not have been able to. We have agreed on a house rule that it is harder to heal if you do get knocked below -con HP. We use that after that point, healing spells heal 1 point per spell level. It does make combat last a little longer, but not overly so. Give it a try. The worst that can happen is that you and your players don't like it and revert back to standard.

[Nousos]

Having only used it in Star Wars d20 (yes, Saga doesn't have it) I can say it lends itself perfectly to a reality based setting like that one. It makes you want to take cover and fight smart more often, due to the fact that a swarm of weak enemies can still get a crit and do good damage, especially with high powered plasma weapons in the setting. Forced me to learn to only fight on my own terms.

Due to the lower power of the weapons themselves, (that can crit) at low levels a dnd game might have an easier time surviving, as it can act as a cushion of sorts. When the damage that can hit wound points increases at higher levels, death is a gamble every fight. Plus, any temp hp would go to vitality, making it a bit less helpful.

Basicly the higher power the monsters in a primarily melee setting means crit=death. God forbid you bring a dual kukri wielding crit fisher to the table.

[j_spencer93]

i use a modified version. My players seem to love it actually. Not entirely sure why but they do.

[RolkFlameraven]

It was fun in SW but the last time I played Revised was... 9 years ago? Crits can end you in one shot and the whole magic = HP that was Jedi was more then a little wonky.

I like how they did it with Saga myself. A way for getting hurt to have an impact in how your character is capable of doing things, as well as a good way to make 'death' harder so getting captured doesn't feel so contrived. Might even try such a thing next time I DM, though I've been thinking of playing Saga again now that I've found all my books again.

My big worry with Wound Points in 3.5 would be crit builds that would bypass Vitality a large chunk of the time, a Rogue getting SA with a rapier or duel wielding kukri could well kill anyone in short order. While cinematic and, arguably, more realistic your players might not like it much, or they could love it.

Not sure how healing magic would work either. Would it only heal Vit or would some go to Wounds as well? Different spells?

[j_spencer93]

He is right the crit system caused problems. If you use it how it is, a rogue becomes extremely over powered

[Gemini476]

Not sure how healing magic would work either. Would it only heal Vit or would some go to Wounds as well? Different spells?

From the 3.5 implementation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/vitalityAndWoundPoints.htm):

Creatures capable of dealing a large amount of damage on a single hit become significantly more deadly in this system, since a lucky attack roll can give a deadly blow to almost any character. For critical hits, consider reducing the additional damage from bonus damage dice (such as a flaming sword or a rogue’s sneak attack) to only 1 point per die. (Such attacks deal normal damage on noncritical hits.) That’s still pretty scary when fighting a high-level rogue, but not quite as terrifying as facing the possibility of an extra 5 or 10 dice of wound point damage with a successful sneak attack critical hit. You may find other places where damage needs adjustment in this system as well; don’t be afraid to tinker when needed to keep your game fun and exciting.

Magical Healing
Spells that heal hit point damage work somewhat differently in this system. For spells that heal a variable amount of hit point damage based on a die roll (such as cure light wounds), apply the actual die roll as restored vitality points, and any modifier to the die roll (such as caster level, for cure spells) as restored wound points.

For example, cure moderate wounds heals 2d8 points of damage, +1 point per caster level (maximum +10). Under this system, a 10th-level cleric could cast it to heal 2d8 vitality points and 10 wound points.

Spells or effects that return a number of hit points not based on a die roll, such as heal, apply the healing to lost wound points first, then to lost vitality. For example, an 11th-level cleric casting heal has 110 points of healing to apply. If the target has taken 12 points of wound damage and 104 points of vitality damage, the spell heals all the wound damage and 98 points of the vitality damage, leaving the target with only 6 points of vitality damage remaining.

[Solaris]

He is right the crit system caused problems. If you use it how it is, a rogue becomes extremely over powered

That's why the system advises you to reduce the sneak attack and other bonus dice to simply flat +1s.


I use VP/WP pretty much exclusively, and have for years. I've modified it as follows:

Death-and-dying part works the same as regular D&D (that is to say, -10 wound points is death), and I've kept critical hits the same as normal D&D for threat range/multiplier (but they still hit wound points). However, only the bonus damage (including +1 per bonus dice) from the critical goes to wound points. The regular weapon damage goes to VP as normal. Axes are pretty lethal in this set-up.

I've also done it that poison/disease only apply when you're damaging wound points, and that all creatures have DR due to their size (Large is DR 3/-, Huge is DR 5/-, Gargantuan is DR 10/-, and Colossal is DR 15/-). DR applies only to wound point damage, unless it is of the supernatural types. A critical hit against 'bare' wound points forces the creature to make a Fort save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or be knocked down to -1 and dying.

Undead have no wound points, only vitality points (though sometimes I do them as having WP equal to their Strength or their Charisma), while constructs I have with WP based on their Strength scores. This is definitely different than the UA version.

In my set-up, some monsters have VP, but a lot of the 'mook' type monsters don't. This is to counterbalance the fact that, especially at lower levels, monsters will have a lot more 'hit points' than you're used to. Kobolds, for example, have triple the staying power they normally have in regular D&D. It's not worth spending five or six combat rounds on some schmucky little aberration when you could be fighting something more interesting.

[Blackhawk748]

I like it, it stops players from running around thinking they are god considering they can die from a lucky crit. So if thats what your going for its great.

[RolkFlameraven]

Huh, so SA becomes normal damage +1's, cool. THW Fighters could still make you have a very bad day with a Falchion or Elven Court Blade though, but meh, its THW and you can do crazy things with that already. TWF with Kukri's is still deadly with crit fishing though that is now more a death of 4-5 cuts over 1-2.

I could also see Swashbucklers having a few good try's or at lest even more dips if you've got the INT and levels to spare for insightful strike.

It looks like fun, and much more playable then I would have thought before reading those rule changes, it might even help the non-magical classes a bit, but at the same time make them much more fragile up there on the frontlines.

I do wonder about wounding weapons and things like Collision though. CON damage is WP damage IIRC and collision is a flat +5 to damage. On a crit build that would be 2D4+12+(str*2) per hit with a +1 collision Kukri and not adding any SA or anything else. Is there anything about things like that or would that need to be rule 0ed as the game went on?

[Seerow]

Death-and-dying part works the same as regular D&D (that is to say, -10 wound points is death), and I've kept critical hits the same as normal D&D for threat range/multiplier (but they still hit wound points). However, only the bonus damage (including +1 per bonus dice) from the critical goes to wound points. The regular weapon damage goes to VP as normal. Axes are pretty lethal in this set-up.


I am confused. Am I reading this right and you took a system where the biggest complaint is swinginess of combat and a crit instakilling almost anything, and made it even more swingly and lethal?

[Nousos]

One thing you might consider if you use this is making armor grant DR (only for wound points, as with all DR) to instead of defense bonus. perhaps in addition to if you like. It works well for star wars and makes sense with vitality being an abstract for near misses.

[Solaris]

I am confused. Am I reading this right and you took a system where the biggest complaint is swinginess of combat and a crit instakilling almost anything, and made it even more swingly and lethal?

Yes.
What many see as a bug, I (and my players) see as a feature. It retains the perception of danger, even though actual risk is minimal at best - I've had one player character die since I started DMing with this rule in the early 2000s, and that was from plain stupidity rather than a critical hit (he walked out from cover into the middle of the road, casting spells while hobgoblin riflemen were shooting at the party; he was surprised and upset when he drew all the fire). There've been a couple of close calls, but nobody's died from a critical hit. A lot of monsters have died from critical hits, though, including a white dragon my brother's paladin one-shotted.


One thing you might consider if you use this is making armor grant DR (only for wound points, as with all DR) to instead of defense bonus. perhaps in addition to if you like. It works well for star wars and makes sense with vitality being an abstract for near misses.

I'm a fan of the armor-as-DR rule variant, too. I've done it both in addition to a class defense bonus and without.
A variant I've used on it is that magic weapons bypass the DR of armors with a lower enhancement bonus. Thus, a +1 weapon ignores the DR of mundane armor, a +2 weapon bypasses the DR of a +1 armor, and a +3 armor's DR applies against a mundane, +1, +2, and +3 weapon but not a +4.

[Nibbens]

I like it, it stops players from running around thinking they are god considering they can dies from a lucky crit. So if thats what your going for its great.

Played with a Wound Level system in Deadlands, and I must agree with the above quote.

Also, I love that it makes gameplay feel more cinematic. You aren't just hit for 10 damage - you're struck in the upper abdomen and this wound causes you to take negatives to everything you do, etc etc.

And, of course - "guess what, you're arm just got cut off!" - is a statement that my players would never have allowed a DM to say from just taking damage. With a wound system, you can make damage look lasting and permanent.

[Seruvius]

Tried it in once for a one-off. The system defs makes combat more realistic, with crits hitting wound points suddenly a dagger being wielded by someone without sneak attack is still nasty. It makes low level mooks a lot stronger and stuff. We used normal magic but as we use a nat 1 nasty stuff happens, the nat 20 being real pwoerful was a nice balance to magics power as unless its a touch spell (and then by our rules also could go awry on a 1) then spells cant crit.

[Calimehter]

I ran this variant a couple of years ago, but it only lasted a handful of sessions, and it was a bit combat light (by D&D standards anyway). We did have one guy laid up for a while after a bad crit, but it didn't result in much disruption to actual game play.

Aside from the extra importance for crits, there are a couple of other features that I like. One is the quick vitality healing, which enables no-magic healing, which can be handy for those situations when divine healing is not available. This obviously is more common at some combo of low op/level/magic but it also means you don't "have" to have a cleric (on a stick or otherwise) for lower level play, which can be nice.

The other is the "backstop" save vs. death you get . . . even if you take a hit that would have ordinarily knocked you to -10 or worse under the normal system, you can't go below 0 and you get a fixed DC 15 save to avoid death.

[lsfreak]

I think every time I notice wounds being brought up, I pander the version Eldariel used in a low-magic game:



Your normal HP is basically your VP
Your WP total is Con + 1/HD [recent change due to lethality]
VP damage grants scaling penalties to...basically all rolls. ½ your full VP is -1, 1/4th is -2 and 0 is -3.
Criticals deal the weapon damage and 1 point per any bonus dice (Sneak Attack, maneuvers, etc. - could apply to spells too, but we don't use spells) to WP. Rest is dealt to VP as per normal (the rolled dice, bonus damage, etc.) [recent change due to lethality]
Whenever a character takes WP damage (critical or otherwise), roll 1d20 to determine which bodypart the hit lands at. 1-2 for head, 3-5 for left arm, 6-8 for right arm, 9-12 for left leg, 13-16 for right leg, 17-20 for torso. Torso is a standard crit, leg hit ½s movement, arm hit screws up using that arm and head hit grants penalties to the Fort-save vs. stun/death. All also apply -4 to anything using the bodypart in question; skills, attacks, etc. These heal when you've healed as much WP damage as the hit dealt to you.
You naturally heal WP at the rate of 1/night as opposed to 1/level/night.
Fort-save to avoid going to "Dying" is 15+damage taken over 0 WP as opposed to static 15.

I've wanted to trial a lite version that changes penalties to -1 at half VP and -2 at no VP, remove the body part hits, and removes the assumption that non-NPCs only have woundsvitality. It worked pretty well for all of two sessions of a level 1 E6 campaign I started before it fell apart, which isn't saying much. But the trial I used involved much more ready access to vitality healing (though generally topping out at half vitality, not full healing), via things like class abilities and Heal skill.

I didn't get a chance to do it in my brief campaign, but I also feel like playing NPCs as being really reluctant to fight would help sell up the danger. Anyone should be really hesitant to get into a fight, doing everything they can to avoid it, unless they're very stupid, very crazy (psychosis, drugs, mob mentality), or very dangerous.

[Zilzmaer]

Eldariel has a campaign journal going with this variant; after each session, he types his thoughts about it, including the rules.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?110635-D-amp-D-3-5-Campaign-Journal-Uncovering-the-Lost-World-(Low-Magic-World-Player-s-PoV)

[Larkas]

Hmmm, that's all very interesting. Thanks for the input, guys!