How powerful would you describe a level 3 character?

[Brendanicus]

Wow, now I know why people consider Tippy to be a near-Giant level authority on the forums. This is really good stuff. Thanks. It will really help me build my campaign world up.

[Vhaidara]

Well, one of the more commonly accepted equivalencies to real life is that no one (or at least, no more than maybe 3 in a billion) have passed level 6.

For fiction parallels, the Three Hunters (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) are generally level 6-8, Gandalf is actually only around level 10-12 (Some mix of Wizard, Fighter, and Abjurant Champion, I'd say)

[Flame of Anor]

They've taken the first steps on the road to heroism.

[Urpriest]

Level 3 is around the level of a Village Sheriff. You're someone the average person can rely on, but still a small fish in a big pond in the wider world.

[Troacctid]

For fiction parallels, the Three Hunters (Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli) are generally level 6-8, Gandalf is actually only around level 10-12 (Some mix of Wizard, Fighter, and Abjurant Champion, I'd say)

Gandalf isn't a great example as he would have a level adjustment and racial HD messing with his ECL.

[Brookshw]

I'd describe them as sort of akin to a sergeant, they've been around, they've got some experience.

[Vhaidara]

Gandalf isn't a great example as he would have a level adjustment and racial HD messing with his ECL.

Eh, I'd say it's less RHD and LA and more being a DMPC Mary Sue. He is definitely a gish though.

[Demidos]

Given they must have survived a good number of fights (between, what was it, 26 regular CR encounters or like 10 50/50 chance to win fights), they're likely competent brawlers, and thats about it. Approaching the point where regular folks wouldnt be able to touch them (a cleric should be able to take down at LEAST a good 10 or so 1st commoners solo, even without prep time).

[Emperor Tippy]

90% of the world has no PC levels.

Likewise 90% of the world is not going to reach ECL 5.

Those two groups aren't one and the same but there is overlap.

A level 1 fighter with 14 Con has 12 HP. An average commoner (level 1, 10 Con) has 4 HP. The level 1 fighter is already better than the vast majority of the population in combat. This isn't "new recruit" level it's "son of the local lord who has been intensively trained in the arts of war pretty much since he could walk and talk".

Per the DMG a small town of one to two thousand people is going to have a single level 8 fighter at best with the average small town having a single level 4 or 5 fighter. The best small town is going to have one level 8 fighter, two level 4 fighters, four level 2 fighters, and eight level 1 fighters. This is the town where a renowned hero has retired and set up a fighting academy or the like.

---
Level 1 PC class: Highly skilled or intensively schooled but likely lacking in real world experience.

Level 3 PC class: As before except with anything from a year to a decade of experience.

Level 5 PC class: As before except either very exceptional, exceptional circumstances are in play, or two decades or more of experience. Not a legend or anything but generally a local hero, often the local lord who has been rewarded for a lifetime of good service to a greater lord.

Level 8 PC class: Part of the King's personal guard or the like. Generally those with exceptional natural talent in their chosen field, a fair amount of luck, and helpful circumstances.

Level 10 PC class: Legend. This is where you have made it into the bards stories that will be sung not just months or years later but long after you are dead and your bones are dust. Sorcerer's bind entire armies of elemental's and outsiders to serve them, Necromancer's can field whole bands of undead, Fighter's single handedly slaughter whole Orc bands, Cleric's can bring the dead to life, kill with a single touch, and speak directly to their god.

Level 13 PC class: Beyond merely a legend. Often times the most powerful single individual in an entire kingdom. Wizards can be anywhere in the great wheel in 12 seconds (Plane Shift + Greater Teleport) or command the very weather over an entire city. Clerics can kill a legion of unbelievers with but a single word. A fighter can pick up a weapon that he has never heard of in his life before and wield in better than most masters. A Bard can regularly perform pieces of music so enthralling that even deities sit up and take notice or make even an unfriendly crowd walk away as the bards friends, or with a few minutes of work turn even a hostile enemy into a friend.

Level 15 PC class: Generally beyond the concerns of individual kingdoms. Their enemies threaten the survival or freedom of the entire world. Sorcerer's bind and enslave the general's of hell's armies. Wizard's can turn themselves into living iron and slaughter the armies of entire nations with impunity, burn entire armies to ash, bring winter across an entire nation in the middle of summer, conquer aging, bend time, and turn you into a dragon with a finger snap. A Fighter can take the field against twenty five thousand foes and walk off two days later without a scratch on him and none of his foes alive or fight the champions of the Abyss in single combat and emerge victorious. A Bard can calm a raging enemy with but a few words and turn him into a fanatical follower with but a short conversation, or he can turn an entire legion in to a fanatical mob that will willingly die for the Bard.

Level 18 PC Class: Demigods. World spanning empires can be single handedly conquered in days. Entire planes with whatever laws of reality the individual desires can be created. Death is of no concern. Continent spanning cities made of Mithril and sculpted so perfectly that even the gods weep at the beauty can be brought into existence with a finger snap.

Level 21+ PC class: Limitations are for lesser beings. There is no feat that can not be performed, no task that can not be completed, no enemy that can not be defeated. Stories exist of Fighter's who have held a single passage against unending demonic hordes for ten thousand years without even a minutes rest, and they are true.

My answer to roughly the same question in another thread.

---
Level 3 is basically someone who is either competently trained, of average talent, and with a decade or so of experience or someone of fairly exceptional training and talent with some real world experience.

[Inevitability]

To look at it from another perspective, what monsters can 3rd-level characters defeat?

A 3rd-level character is at a level where he, together with his friends, can beat ogres, werewolves, minor elementals, and even wyrmling dragons. I guess that would translate to people in a small area knowing them for defeating monsters they could never dream of killing, with some stories of others further away from where they did this. I'd say a 3rd-level PC is where people start running to when they have a problem.

[TypoNinja]

Eh, I'd say it's less RHD and LA and more being a DMPC Mary Sue. He is definitely a gish though.

No, hes literally an angel on the same scale as the Balor, the Wizards in middle earth are not human wizards like D&D wizards, they are all outsiders closer to Deities than Mortals.


On topic, 3rd level characters are already super human. 1st level PC's equate to Olympic Champions.

Consider a Cleric who casts a 2d8+3 cure spell. That's potentially enough healing to take your average solider from the brink of death to perfect health.

A Second level (raging) Barbarian has a str around 24 depending on racials , which lets him surpass the world record for dead lift by a good half again more. If you want to get really silly there's a feat that doubles your carrying capacity, if you'd like the bust the record by a factor of 3. Before applying magic.

[Afgncaap5]

Level 3 is Season 1 Buffy. You know you can technically beat a Werewolf but it's still a pretty big deal to run across one, and vampires are really dangerous adversaries instead of easily dispatched minions.

[Susano-wo]

I would absolutely second what Tippy and Dire Stirge said. That's how I think of it. (ok, I might not go quite as far as Tippy with the high level stuff but certainly the level 13 and below stuff:smallbiggrin:)
Though, of course, every DM sees it differently, I hate the lvl 1 characters are weak newbs mentality. A lvl1 wizard can cast spells, which is pretty special in and of itself, and a level one fighter knows how to fight effectively with all but the most bizarre weapons. (not to mention that wizards, rogues, and fighters represent essentially high talent versions of NPC classes, indicating that even having class levels in a PC class is special--most priests are not clerics, in my mind, only the chosen few.)

[LoyalPaladin]

I posted a threat like this a while back. Emperor Tippy had a really great response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18435693&postcount=11).

Edit:
It would appear Tippy himself beat me to that punch.

[Amaril]

My scale is pretty similar to Tippy's, though I've never really thought about levels beyond 8 or 10 because none of my games have gone higher than that.


1st level: Novice
As a 1st-level adventurer, you're above most normal people, but still untested, just beginning to advance in your chosen class. A fighter might be just about to finish their time as a squire and be made a full knight; a rogue might be embarking on their first heist after living as a common pickpocket for years; a wizard is just beginning to move beyond theoretical study and start experimenting with real, practical magic.

3rd level: Professional
At 3rd level, you're generally considered to be a "real" member of your class--this is the level of most adventurers you'll meet. A fighter can take down two, maybe three ordinary bandits in open combat at the same time, and will be able to hold their own against another trained warrior. A wizard has fully graduated from their apprentice status and can be taken seriously by their colleagues as a practitioner, eligible to join most wizard orders as a full member.

5th level: Veteran
5th-level characters are experts in their chosen profession, respected for their experience and skill. Common criminals will think twice about crossing the 5th-level rogue who leads the local gang. A 5th-level fighter might be a sergeant or captain in their local lord's army, with command of their own unit. Apprentices will seek out 5th-level wizards to train them in the arts of magic.

8th level: Master
As an 8th-level character, you're considered to be among the very best, and your reputation will most likely precede you. Knights across the kingdom will tell stories about the 8th-level fighter's prowess in battle. When people need a priceless relic stolen or a high-profile target taken out with full deniability, they call the 8th-level rogue. An 8th-level wizard will be the archmage of their order, commanding the admiration and respect of their colleagues far and wide.

10th level: Hero
10th-level characters have passed beyond the pinnacle of normal mortal achievement--they are the sort of special people who only come about once in a generation, and the stories of their deeds will be sung for decades after they are gone. You're the one people call when they need something done that would be impossible for anyone else. The 10th-level fighter can slay the ancient dragon that terrorizes the kingdom; the 10th-level rogue can slip past the emperor's finest soldiers and cut his throat while he sleeps without anyone seeing so much as a shadow.

11th+ level: Legend
In all of recorded history, no mortal has ever managed to achieve this level of prowess. This is the realm of terrible monsters and immortal beings that live only in the ancient stories, those who can topple kingdoms and challenge gods.

[Flickerdart]

For comparison, the following things are CR3 and thus roughly comparable in fighting prowess:

Lion
Dire Ape
Dire Wolf
Giant Eagle
Dragons (Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, Green Wyrmlings, White very young)
Huge viper
Medium elementals

How would you feel if a dragon or a giant wolf or a dude made of fire showed up on your doorstep? Treat a level 3 character in much the same way.

[dascarletm]

I posted a threat like this a while back. Emperor Tippy had a really great response (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=18435693&postcount=11).

Edit:
It would appear Tippy himself beat me to that punch.

That's because Tippy=Win. :smallwink:

[atemu1234]

I wonder what lvl 20 would be.

[Ssalarn]

For comparison, the following things are CR3 and thus roughly comparable in fighting prowess:

Lion
Dire Ape
Dire Wolf
Giant Eagle
Dragons (Black, Blue, Brass, Bronze, Green Wyrmlings, White very young)
Huge viper
Medium elementals

How would you feel if a dragon or a giant wolf or a dude made of fire showed up on your doorstep? Treat a level 3 character in much the same way.

Although Lions and Huge [snakes] are real life threats that a well prepared person could deal with without use of modern technology, so that's something to keep in mind. Generally I look at it as a 3rd level Fighter is a person who's roughly on par with the trained combatants of our world, with maybe some advantages in a couple places because of the math for weight and carrying capacity being wonky and inconsistent. A 6th level Fighter is basically old school Captain America, peak human potential in all physical categories but still theoretically possible. Pretty much everything after that has entered the realm of superheroes and doesn't really have a real life corrolary.

[Flickerdart]

I wonder what lvl 20 would be.
Pretty much god-like. Consider that in mythology, the greatest of great heroes (even Gilgamesh, two thirds god) would always be praying to the gods for this and that to happen, and the gods would help them because they were righteous, not because they were strong. A level 20 wizard doesn't need to pray to gods, he just shoots fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his arse.


Although Lions and Huge [snakes] are real life threats that a well prepared person could deal with without use of modern technology, so that's something to keep in mind.
You'd have to be a stone cold badass to go mano a mano with a lion and win, though. We're talking professional fighters at the height of their careers.

[Vhaidara]

A level 20 wizard doesn't need to pray to gods, he just shoots fireballs from his eyes and lightning from his arse.

No, that's level 10, and unoptimized at that.


A level 20 wizard doesn't need to pray to gods, he just shoots fireballs gates from his eyes and lightning wish from his arse.

[Flickerdart]

No, that's level 10, and unoptimized at that.
No, a level 20 wizard casts gate and wish. A level 20 wizard's eyes and arse are themselves lower-level wizards.

[Chronos]

What's the question to which we're responding? The OP has been replaced by a reply, fracturing the conversation.

[Flickerdart]

What's the question to which we're responding? The OP has been replaced by a reply, fracturing the conversation.
The title and the posts in the thread before (and during) Tippy's make that abundantly clear.

[TypoNinja]

No, a level 20 wizard casts gate and wish. A level 20 wizard's eyes and arse are themselves lower-level wizards.

Named William Wallace, from all indications.

[Sam K]

As a thought experiment, I started thinking about what the level of non-adventurers should be. Even if they don't "overcome encounters", then could still technically get exp for achieving their goals (and sometimes an NPC might actually have an encounter they get atleast partial exp for). Keep in mind, for a commoner, a goal may be to have enough food for the winter (challenging enough when you cannot rely on magic) or make your business turn a small profit.

I came up with the very rough guideline that a non-adventurer who was modereately successful in a relatively low-risk lifestyle (what most people in a fantasy setting would be dealing with, seeing all those goblins, kobolds, bandits and adventurers running around) would average 1 exp per day. This means that your average person hits level 2 in roughly 3 years, and level 3 in about 9.

To me, this seems fairly reasonable. After a few years of being on your own, you will have seen many of the common challenges of your trade. A pesant may have dealt with a bad harvest, an innkeeper would have met all kinds of people, a guardsman would know the beat and the city. Your skills would be a bit more tested and you would be more confidant and aware of what you can do. You would have proven to people around you that you are reasonably skilled at what you do. After 8-10 years, you're an established professional in your field. You've dealt with most things, picked up some new tricks (in the form of a feat). Your skills are significantly better than those starting out. You'd be a respected member of the village, a master craftsman (allowed to have your own workshop), a watch sargeant, or a senior clerk.

In practice, once you get to this point, most average challenges may not give you much (if any) exp so advancement would slow down unless you took up more challenging lifestyle. Most humans wouldn't get further than 3 or maybe 4 with this system before old age claimed them.

Long lived races would have an advantage, ofcourse, but to me that makes some sense. Perhaps elves and dwarves have relatively influencial cultures despite being few in number because their citizens are generally of a higher level.

Anyway, this was just a bunch of theorycrafting from me, and it seems like I end up at about the same result as tippy, only with alot more rambling :P

[Urpriest]

As a thought experiment, I started thinking about what the level of non-adventurers should be. Even if they don't "overcome encounters", then could still technically get exp for achieving their goals (and sometimes an NPC might actually have an encounter they get atleast partial exp for). Keep in mind, for a commoner, a goal may be to have enough food for the winter (challenging enough when you cannot rely on magic) or make your business turn a small profit.

I came up with the very rough guideline that a non-adventurer who was modereately successful in a relatively low-risk lifestyle (what most people in a fantasy setting would be dealing with, seeing all those goblins, kobolds, bandits and adventurers running around) would average 1 exp per day. This means that your average person hits level 2 in roughly 3 years, and level 3 in about 9.

To me, this seems fairly reasonable. After a few years of being on your own, you will have seen many of the common challenges of your trade. A pesant may have dealt with a bad harvest, an innkeeper would have met all kinds of people, a guardsman would know the beat and the city. Your skills would be a bit more tested and you would be more confidant and aware of what you can do. You would have proven to people around you that you are reasonably skilled at what you do. After 8-10 years, you're an established professional in your field. You've dealt with most things, picked up some new tricks (in the form of a feat). Your skills are significantly better than those starting out. You'd be a respected member of the village, a master craftsman (allowed to have your own workshop), a watch sargeant, or a senior clerk.

In practice, once you get to this point, most average challenges may not give you much (if any) exp so advancement would slow down unless you took up more challenging lifestyle. Most humans wouldn't get further than 3 or maybe 4 with this system before old age claimed them.

Long lived races would have an advantage, ofcourse, but to me that makes some sense. Perhaps elves and dwarves have relatively influencial cultures despite being few in number because their citizens are generally of a higher level.

Anyway, this was just a bunch of theorycrafting from me, and it seems like I end up at about the same result as tippy, only with alot more rambling :P

You'd have to skew populations pretty young to reconcile your model with the demographic info we have available, though, unless you're using Eberron demographics.

[Sam K]

I must admit I didn't take the experiment far enough to apply it to a any campaign world demographics. I just looked at human starting ages, and if your average human with a simple career start at age 17 (15+1d4), it would mean lvl 20 at age 20 and level 3 around 30, which seemed reasonable.

[Coidzor]

In the settings I've been working on, Level 3 is basically an established professional. This is in comparison with Level 5-6, which is basically like being a master of one's trade or Level 1, which is basically someone who just completed an apprenticeship.

An analogy would be that a level 1 Lawyer would have just passed the bar and be looking for employment with a law firm or having just acquired it. A few years later once they've found their niche in the legal world, that'd be about level 3. By the time they became a partner, they'd be about level 6. Of course, my recollections of lawyering might be flawed and it might be that the level 3 lawyer would be the one who is trying for/just made partner and level 6 lawyers are the ones who could actually start law firms and have a reasonable success rate with starting one.

So, a blacksmith in a small town that's fully trained and isn't new would be expected to be level 3-4 while the master of a smithy in a large town or city would be expected to be level 6+ with a number of 0th level Apprentices, 1st level Journeymen, and depending upon the scope of the enterprise, a level 3ish type or two.

[Flickerdart]

Honestly, people who run a business (such as a partner of a law firm, or a master blacksmith with many apprentices) don't even need to be high level, so much as just be good at management and making the right social connections.

Consider that skill increase is actually very logarithmic - at level 1 a Human Expert with Elite Array can have +12 (+2 from ability score, +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from crappy +2/+2 feat, +4 from ranks, +1 from trait). At level 2, that jumps by 3 (+1 rank, +2 from a synergy skill) and if he can afford it, another +2 from a masterwork tool, for a total of +17.

At level 3, he just gets one skill rank, for +1 (unless there is somehow another feat that boosts his skill of choice). At level 4, he gets a skill rank, and an ability boost that might mean another +1. Levels 5 and 6 are also just +1 (it is truly a rare skill that has four feats increasing it!) unless he is buying magic items, too.

So the difference between an experienced lawyer (Expert 4) and one of the most experienced lawyers around (Expert 6) is only around 2 points. If an NPC character ends his career at level 3 or 4, it doesn't have any consequences to the verisimilitude of a setting, and even level 2 as a typical NPC's capstone doesn't make much of an impact (so the average great lawyer has a mod of +17, and a lawyer of truly rare and exceptional skill might go up as high as +22).

This is much different for PCs. A 6th level fighter is much better at fighting than a 4th level fighter, a 6th level sorcerer roasts a 4th level sorcerer every time, etc. It's mostly a lifestyle difference - wealth that isn't wasted on luxuries and the complexity of the combat system compared to everything else in the game make every PC level a lot more impactful.

[danzibr]

This thread makes me want to play E6.

[TypoNinja]

Honestly, people who run a business (such as a partner of a law firm, or a master blacksmith with many apprentices) don't even need to be high level, so much as just be good at management and making the right social connections.

Consider that skill increase is actually very logarithmic - at level 1 a Human Expert with Elite Array can have +12 (+2 from ability score, +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from crappy +2/+2 feat, +4 from ranks, +1 from trait). At level 2, that jumps by 3 (+1 rank, +2 from a synergy skill) and if he can afford it, another +2 from a masterwork tool, for a total of +17.

At level 3, he just gets one skill rank, for +1 (unless there is somehow another feat that boosts his skill of choice). At level 4, he gets a skill rank, and an ability boost that might mean another +1. Levels 5 and 6 are also just +1 (it is truly a rare skill that has four feats increasing it!) unless he is buying magic items, too.

So the difference between an experienced lawyer (Expert 4) and one of the most experienced lawyers around (Expert 6) is only around 2 points. If an NPC character ends his career at level 3 or 4, it doesn't have any consequences to the verisimilitude of a setting, and even level 2 as a typical NPC's capstone doesn't make much of an impact (so the average great lawyer has a mod of +17, and a lawyer of truly rare and exceptional skill might go up as high as +22).


I think from a commoner plying his trade standpoint the skill benchmarks agaisnt taking a 10 are the important ones. Multiples of 5. If I do a task for a living I can't afford to screw it up 20% of the time or more. I need to know that my time and raw materials are not going to waste. I'll always be taking a ten, and I'll never try something too difficult for me, so +14 to +15 is a huge deal, Probably your apprenticeship ending, +15 to +16 is almost pointless, but again +19 to +20 opens a new set of options.

[Ssalarn]

I think from a commoner plying his trade standpoint the skill benchmarks agaisnt taking a 10 are the important ones. Multiples of 5. If I do a task for a living I can't afford to screw it up 20% of the time or more. I need to know that my time and raw materials are not going to waste. I'll always be taking a ten, and I'll never try something too difficult for me, so +14 to +15 is a huge deal, Probably your apprenticeship ending, +15 to +16 is almost pointless, but again +19 to +20 opens a new set of options.

I don't know, a lawyer who wins 80% of his cases is pretty good, a merchant who makes a profit on 80% of their goods is doing about as well as or better than most modern businesses, and athletes who win 80% of their competitions are generally world class competitors - you can go into playoffs with a losing record and still come out as the Super Bowl champions in American football.

[Troacctid]

I don't know, a lawyer who wins 80% of his cases is pretty good, a merchant who makes a profit on 80% of their goods is doing about as well as or better than most modern businesses, and athletes who win 80% of their competitions are generally world class competitors - you can go into playoffs with a losing record and still come out as the Super Bowl champions in American football.

Lawyers and athletes are different, though. They're making opposed checks.

[Urpriest]

Lawyers and athletes are different, though. They're making opposed checks.

Merchants too, arguably: opposed Diplomacy for negotiation/haggling.

[Flickerdart]

I think from a commoner plying his trade standpoint the skill benchmarks agaisnt taking a 10 are the important ones. Multiples of 5. If I do a task for a living I can't afford to screw it up 20% of the time or more. I need to know that my time and raw materials are not going to waste. I'll always be taking a ten, and I'll never try something too difficult for me, so +14 to +15 is a huge deal, Probably your apprenticeship ending, +15 to +16 is almost pointless, but again +19 to +20 opens a new set of options.
Right, but that's the thing. The difference of +5, literally the smallest possible difference that the system cares about, is a difference across a 200% level increase. 1 to 2? +5. 2 to 6? +5.

[Arbane]

Pretty much god-like. Consider that in mythology, the greatest of great heroes (even Gilgamesh, two thirds god) would always be praying to the gods for this and that to happen, and the gods would help them because they were righteous, not because they were strong.

Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? Most of it happens because (some of) the gods were out to get him in one way or another.

Herakles had divine aid, sure, but Gilgamesh not so much. I haven't read it lately....

[Flickerdart]

Have you read the Epic of Gilgamesh? Most of it happens because the gods were out to get him in one way or another.
Gilgamesh gets help from Ninsun, Shamash, Sin, and Ea. He has a pretty serious godly backing.

[Arbane]

Gilgamesh gets help from Ninsun, Shamash, Sin, and Ea. He has a pretty serious godly backing.

Fair enough. He also had Ishtar out to get him, and Aruru created Enkidu specifically to be Gil's arch-rival, but it didn't quite work out...

[TypoNinja]

I don't know, a lawyer who wins 80% of his cases is pretty good, a merchant who makes a profit on 80% of their goods is doing about as well as or better than most modern businesses, and athletes who win 80% of their competitions are generally world class competitors - you can go into playoffs with a losing record and still come out as the Super Bowl champions in American football.

You've picked things who's sucess isn't dependant on just the check.

It doesn't matter how good your laywer skill is if your client is actually guilty and the other side can prove it. An athlete competes, I know I can hurl my shot put X feet, weather I win or not isn't based on hitting a benchmark its if my competitors can do better. A merchant doesn't just magic up his gear from nowhere, unless he happens to be a crafter selling his own goods. His entire profession is buying something cheap (he hopes) and selling it for more than he paid for it + his costs.

The less said about American football the better.

On the other hand if I'm a crafter making something, like say longswords, I can do this or not on a ten. I can make a sword, or I can mess up and waste time and money. I'm never going to risk wasting time and resources on a failed longsword. If I can make a longsword taking a ten, but need to roll a 15 to master work it, trying for masterwork is a terrible idea. I'm more likely to **** up than not, waste money, and have somebody who can afford masterwork weapons now mad at me for not delivering on time.

Rolling a check is the last refuge of the desperate or the stupid, taking the ten is already the break even point on the dice. If I need that 15 I have a whopping 25% chance of getting it right. Can you afford to risk your lively hood wasting time and money on three out of four items that take a week each? Burn the full market price of an item, to get one crafted? I'm literally better off buying one from somebody more skilled than me to fill that order. I'll have at least saved my self a month of crafting.

Since the 10 when taking 10 is already the halfway mark, anything you can't make taking a ten is a bad bet, you are more likely to fail it than not, wasting not just the materials, but your time, which could have been spent making something you could have sold. This is the opportunity cost gone as well.

[Flickerdart]

Consider a 2nd level craftsman. 5 ranks, +3 Skill Focus (Craft), +2 masterwork tool, +1 from Specialized, +2 from 15 in Intelligence. Total bonus: +13, or a result of 23 on a Take 10. He can make everything off the Craft table, including Masterwork items, without fail (with the exception of the most complex alchemical items, for which he needs an apprentice). Hell, even a 1st level crafter (4 ranks, +3 Skill Focus, +2 Int, Specialized) can take 10 to make a Masterwork item. To have to roll for a longsword, you have to have only a +4 mod, meaning that you either have no natural talent for crafting whatsoever (no Int bonus, racial bonus, or Specialized trait) or you didn't bother to invest in the skill properly (by maxing out ranks or picking up feats). Either way, a character like that doesn't deserve to succeed every time.

The same guy at level 6 has 4 more ranks, and another point of Int mod. He's gone up 5 points from the level 2 guy, but other than ditching the apprentice he hasn't actually gained the ability to make anything new. He can make some stuff faster, but a setting loses nothing from shaving 4 levels off every blacksmith, and gains quite a bit in terms of reduced bulletproofness of random dudes and increasing the meaningfulness of levels.

The level 6 guys might buy magic items that boost his check. A +5 competence item goes for 2500gp...too bad that this is a recommended item cost for a 7th level PC to have. Sure, you could fiat that the craftsman spent half of his earthly possessions on that +5, but again, it doesn't really give him access to anything more than speed. Of course, you can make the argument that money-earning NPCs don't run on WBL, but there's no reason the level 2 crafter can't own such an item in that case*.

Once again, however, these extra levels benefit adventurers much more, even in the skill playground - an average lock is already out of reach for anybody with less than a +15 mod taking 10 (although there are more feats and synergy bonuses that boost Open Lock so you could have that by level 2). Slipping out of manacles? That's DC30 Escape Artist. All the really important DCs are calibrated for high level characters, but crafting just isn't one of those.


*As an aside, I decided to run some numbers on the viability of the magic item.

The level 6 craftsman normally has a result of 28, meaning that he can make accelerated exotic weapons. He crafts sianghams at 30sp a piece, and cranks out 26 of these babies a week. 10sp from the sianghams goes to pay for raw materials, so we're looking at 20sp profits per siangham, or 52gp per week. With the +5, he's better off doing something easier so he can accelerate twice - a DC12 simple weapon. He settles on sickles, at 60sp a pop. That's 17 sickles per week, net 4gp profit from each, total 68. So he's making 16gp more. This means it will take him 156 weeks to pay for the cost of the +5 competence item - exactly 3 years. I'm not going to get into the complexities of loans or try to figure out how much the poor guy needs to spend on his house, wife, and kids every week and how much he can put away to buy the thing in the first place.

The level 2 craftsman normally has a result of 23, so he's looking at the sickle strategy even without the tool. 8 sickles a week, 32gp of profit. With a +5, he can do the level 6 guy's siangham strategy for 52gp, paying off his thing in 125 weeks because he gets more benefit out of it? That doesn't seem right. Someone check my math, it's 2 AM.

[Rogue Shadows]

This reminds me of a discussion I was in about a year or two back concerning the d20 system's ability to model Einstein. I think by the end of it we'd sorted out (well, I'd sorted out, to my satisfaction) that a 32-year-old Einstein (around the age where he made his most significant breakthroughs) he could be modeled as low as a 1st-level character and still be capable of phenomenal insight into the field of physics. Hang on...ah, here we go.

New Class: Modern Commoners
Modern Commoners may select any 5 skills to be class skills. They are otherwise identical to Commoners as found in the DMG.

New Feat: Erudite
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on all Decipher Script checks and on all Knowledge checks

Albert Einstein, Age 32: Human Commoner 1; HD 1; hp 2; BAB +0, Grp +0, AC 9, Touch 9, Flat-footed 9; Atk Unarmed +0 (1d3) or Ranged +0 (by weapon); SA None, SQ Human traits, Modern Commoner traits; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; AB Str 10, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills and Feats: Appraise +8, Diplomacy +2, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (physics) +13, Knowledge (mathematics) +10, Profession (patent clerk) +4, Profession (teacher) +4; Erudite, Skill Focus (Knowledge [physics]).

Einstein has chosen Appraise, Knowledge (physics, mathematics), and Profession (patent clerk, teacher) as his Modern Commoner class skills.

So here we are, boiled down to the absolute most basic stats possible for Einstein. I've given him a full range of skills and can justify each one based on his life, if you like (for example, his ranks in Knowledge (geography) are based off of the fact that he did in fact travel the world, going to Asia, America, and various places in Europe). He's a 32-year-old-man and so this is him during his age of great scientific achievement, without any modifiers for having aged yet as all of his greatest discoveries were before he was 35. Except for his Intelligence being 18 and his Dexterity being 9 he is in all ways average; he is built using the 25-point-buy method.

With a +13 to Knowledge (physics) he can take 10 to hit DC 23 questions, or take 20 to hit DC 33. Throw in an assistant (+2 aid another), library (+2 circumstance), science equipment (+2 equipment), and he can hit DC 39 Knowledge (physics) checks. Bump him up one level, and his combat ability only barely improves (by giving him 2 extra hit points and +1 to BAB), but he can now hit DC 40 Physics questions. Or, if that breaks your immersion too much, just keep him at level 1 but institute a "library quality" thing wherein well-stocked libraries will provide larger than a +2 bonus. BAM! Level 1 Einstein, no combat ability, all his relevant knowledges and skills accounted for, energy-mass equivalence.

[Flickerdart]

This reminds me of a discussion I was in about a year or two back concerning the d20 system's ability to model Einstein. I think by the end of it we'd sorted out (well, I'd sorted out, to my satisfaction) that a 32-year-old Einstein (around the age where he made his most significant breakthroughs) he could be modeled as low as a 1st-level character and still be capable of phenomenal insight into the field of physics. Hang on...ah, here we go.

New Class: Modern Commoners
Modern Commoners may select any 5 skills to be class skills. They are otherwise identical to Commoners as found in the DMG.

New Feat: Erudite
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on all Decipher Script checks and on all Knowledge checks

Albert Einstein, Age 32: Human Commoner 1; HD 1; hp 2; BAB +0, Grp +0, AC 9, Touch 9, Flat-footed 9; Atk Unarmed +0 (1d3) or Ranged +0 (by weapon); SA None, SQ Human traits, Modern Commoner traits; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; AB Str 10, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills and Feats: Appraise +8, Diplomacy +2, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (physics) +13, Knowledge (mathematics) +10, Profession (patent clerk) +4, Profession (teacher) +4; Erudite, Skill Focus (Knowledge [physics]).

Einstein has chosen Appraise, Knowledge (physics, mathematics), and Profession (patent clerk, teacher) as his Modern Commoner class skills.

So here we are, boiled down to the absolute most basic stats possible for Einstein. I've given him a full range of skills and can justify each one based on his life, if you like (for example, his ranks in Knowledge (geography) are based off of the fact that he did in fact travel the world, going to Asia, America, and various places in Europe). He's a 32-year-old-man and so this is him during his age of great scientific achievement, without any modifiers for having aged yet as all of his greatest discoveries were before he was 35. Except for his Intelligence being 18 and his Dexterity being 9 he is in all ways average; he is built using the 25-point-buy method.

With a +13 to Knowledge (physics) he can take 10 to hit DC 23 questions, or take 20 to hit DC 33. Throw in an assistant (+2 aid another), library (+2 circumstance), science equipment (+2 equipment), and he can hit DC 39 Knowledge (physics) checks. Bump him up one level, and his combat ability only barely improves (by giving him 2 extra hit points and +1 to BAB), but he can now hit DC 40 Physics questions. Or, if that breaks your immersion too much, just keep him at level 1 but institute a "library quality" thing wherein well-stocked libraries will provide larger than a +2 bonus. BAM! Level 1 Einstein, no combat ability, all his relevant knowledges and skills accounted for, energy-mass equivalence.

Your average PhD is Int 18. Einstein is a prime candidate for the Prodigy template (+2 to an ability and +4 to ability checks and skills involving that ability). He would also definitely be Specialized in physics.

[Optimator]

I always pictured someone who is 4 levels above someone else is twice as good as the other and someone 2 levels higher is one "tier" above the other. Also, when doing "real life" comparisons I don't like to be limited by the stat of 18 as being max. I prefer the Mutants and Masterminds scale (which is really the same and D&D) there 18-19 is "Highly Gifted", 20-21 is "Best in Nation", 22-23 is "Best in World" and 24-25 is "Best Ever; Peak of Human Achievement". I think this still tracks into D&D when one factors in level bonuses and the odd freak/savant.

[Flickerdart]

I always pictured someone who is 4 levels above someone else is twice as good as the other and someone 2 levels higher is one "tier" above the other.
Funny how the numbers don't actually support that. I mean, if you literally double the number of dudes, the CR of an encounter goes up by 2, so by definition, someone who's twice as good at combat is 2 levels higher. And all the math on this page clearly shows that 4 levels up is only about 1/4 worth of improvement.

[ericgrau]

Experienced soldier. Not fresh out of training (level 1), not elite (level 5). I imagine very many NPCs would end their careers or lives at level 3, but not go beyond that. A professional. If you hired a decent bodyguard or mercenary I imagine he'd be level 3. Not a rookie, but not too uncommonly good either.

Simply having a 25% greater chance to hit and on checks doesn't mean you're only 25% better. Even a level 5 fighter could fight 4 level 1 fighters. With barely any optimization I'd even say it's a 1 sided fight in favor of the level 5 fighter. Fewer hits x less damage per hit x more hp = many more hits to take down the level 5 fighter. And the reverse for the level 5 hitting the level 1 guys. But OTOH with the right tactical setup maybe the level 1 fighters could pull off a trick.

[Flickerdart]

Experienced soldier. Not fresh out of training (level 1), not elite (level 5). I imagine very many NPCs would end their careers or lives at level 3, but not go beyond that. A professional. If you hired a decent bodyguard or mercenary I imagine he'd be level 3. Not a rookie, but not too uncommonly good either.
A level 1 fighter is not just some guy that went through training. Tippy covers that in his post.



Simply having a 25% greater chance to hit and on checks doesn't mean you're only 25% better.
It does in cases where the skill check is the only thing that matters, like for craftsmen.



Even a level 5 fighter could fight 4 level 1 fighters. With barely any optimization I'd even say it's a 1 sided fight in favor of the level 5 fighter. Fewer hits x less damage per hit x more hp = many more hits to take down the level 5 fighter. And the reverse for the level 5 hitting the level 1 guys. But OTOH with the right tactical setup maybe the level 1 fighters could pull off a trick.
You seem to forget about action advantage. Plus, your damage and AC doesn't go up meaningfully over 4 levels without factoring in wealth-based increases that don't need to be a function of level for NPCs. A level 5 typical fighter will have HP in the mid-40s, which won't last long when he's facing down the business end of four opponents dealing an average of 10 damage per hit each (2d6+3) and hitting pretty much half the time (+6 attack - +1 BAB, +1 WF, +2 STR, +2 flank - vs 16 AC - +1 Dex, +5 breastplate, and even that's generous).

[ericgrau]

I factored in wealth based AC because the CR system expects it too. Try figuring out the damage per round (average hits per round x damage per hit) and hp of the level 1 and level 5 fighters vs eachother. See which side drops first.

Even for craftsmen it isn't truly 25% more successes. It's 25% more of random checks succeed. So 50% success => 75% success actually means 50% more productivity. And for craftsmen in particular it often involves taking a 10 so it means not succeeding at all to always succeeding. For those trying to make an income what they get is proportional to the quadratic check x DC, not the linear check alone, so their income may very well double.

For the fighter it's proportional to the hits x reduced chance to get hit x damage / lesser enemy damage x hp / enemy hp so it's to the 6th power. Some of those increase more than others, but the effect is still pretty dramatic. Then on top of that the level 1 fighter power decreases with every kill while the level 5 fighter stays flat until he hits zero from dying. Try it with WBL. I've done too many of these and I don't have the time I used to, plus I find people don't pay attention unless they get involved themselves.

Special attacks and circumstances like choke points (favors few) and special items like alchemical items in the right situation (favors many) can change things, but damage in an open field is a good starting point to ballpark. Otherwise the possibilities are limitless and there's no clear answer. Only speculation. Another reason why I don't get sucked into hours of math anymore. Too busy.

[Flickerdart]

Even for craftsmen it isn't truly 25% more successes. It's 25% more of random checks succeed. So 50% success => 75% success actually means 50% more productivity. And for craftsmen in particular it often involves taking a 10 so it means not succeeding at all to always succeeding.
Did you not look at the math up there? There's no crafting DC that a level 2 crafter can't hit. There is literally no case where "not succeeding at all" enters the picture.

[ericgrau]

Accelerated crafting for more profit at +10 to the DC. Also, crafting was about 7th place in my concerns compared to fighting. Professionals don't really need nor are able to acquire many class levels even in their entire life. Combatants do.

[Sam K]

Honestly, people who run a business (such as a partner of a law firm, or a master blacksmith with many apprentices) don't even need to be high level, so much as just be good at management and making the right social connections.

Consider that skill increase is actually very logarithmic - at level 1 a Human Expert with Elite Array can have +12 (+2 from ability score, +3 from Skill Focus, +2 from crappy +2/+2 feat, +4 from ranks, +1 from trait). At level 2, that jumps by 3 (+1 rank, +2 from a synergy skill) and if he can afford it, another +2 from a masterwork tool, for a total of +17.

At level 3, he just gets one skill rank, for +1 (unless there is somehow another feat that boosts his skill of choice). At level 4, he gets a skill rank, and an ability boost that might mean another +1. Levels 5 and 6 are also just +1 (it is truly a rare skill that has four feats increasing it!) unless he is buying magic items, too.

So the difference between an experienced lawyer (Expert 4) and one of the most experienced lawyers around (Expert 6) is only around 2 points. If an NPC character ends his career at level 3 or 4, it doesn't have any consequences to the verisimilitude of a setting, and even level 2 as a typical NPC's capstone doesn't make much of an impact (so the average great lawyer has a mod of +17, and a lawyer of truly rare and exceptional skill might go up as high as +22).

This is much different for PCs. A 6th level fighter is much better at fighting than a 4th level fighter, a 6th level sorcerer roasts a 4th level sorcerer every time, etc. It's mostly a lifestyle difference - wealth that isn't wasted on luxuries and the complexity of the combat system compared to everything else in the game make every PC level a lot more impactful.

This is pretty much how it works in RL as well. In most standard tasks, it doesn't make a significant difference if you're "the best" or just "pretty good". In your lawyer example, the 6th level lawyer would have paralegals and junior associates handle everything which can be resolved by taking 10. The 6th level guy would take the cases where you would be making opposed checks, or static checks where you can't take ten.

[hamishspence]

I think by the end of it we'd sorted out (well, I'd sorted out, to my satisfaction) that a 32-year-old Einstein (around the age where he made his most significant breakthroughs) he could be modeled as low as a 1st-level character and still be capable of phenomenal insight into the field of physics. Hang on...ah, here we go.

New Class: Modern Commoners
Modern Commoners may select any 5 skills to be class skills. They are otherwise identical to Commoners as found in the DMG.

New Feat: Erudite
Benefit: You receive a +2 bonus on all Decipher Script checks and on all Knowledge checks

Albert Einstein, Age 32: Human Commoner 1; HD 1; hp 2; BAB +0, Grp +0, AC 9, Touch 9, Flat-footed 9; Atk Unarmed +0 (1d3) or Ranged +0 (by weapon); SA None, SQ Human traits, Modern Commoner traits; SV Fort +0, Ref +0, Will +0; AB Str 10, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 18, Wis 10, Cha 10
Skills and Feats: Appraise +8, Diplomacy +2, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (physics) +13, Knowledge (mathematics) +10, Profession (patent clerk) +4, Profession (teacher) +4; Erudite, Skill Focus (Knowledge [physics]).

Einstein has chosen Appraise, Knowledge (physics, mathematics), and Profession (patent clerk, teacher) as his Modern Commoner class skills.

So here we are, boiled down to the absolute most basic stats possible for Einstein. I've given him a full range of skills and can justify each one based on his life, if you like (for example, his ranks in Knowledge (geography) are based off of the fact that he did in fact travel the world, going to Asia, America, and various places in Europe). He's a 32-year-old-man and so this is him during his age of great scientific achievement, without any modifiers for having aged yet as all of his greatest discoveries were before he was 35. Except for his Intelligence being 18 and his Dexterity being 9 he is in all ways average; he is built using the 25-point-buy method.

With a +13 to Knowledge (physics) he can take 10 to hit DC 23 questions, or take 20 to hit DC 33. Throw in an assistant (+2 aid another), library (+2 circumstance), science equipment (+2 equipment), and he can hit DC 39 Knowledge (physics) checks. Bump him up one level, and his combat ability only barely improves (by giving him 2 extra hit points and +1 to BAB), but he can now hit DC 40 Physics questions. Or, if that breaks your immersion too much, just keep him at level 1 but institute a "library quality" thing wherein well-stocked libraries will provide larger than a +2 bonus. BAM! Level 1 Einstein, no combat ability, all his relevant knowledges and skills accounted for, energy-mass equivalence.
The rules for exceptional libraries are in Stronghold Builder's Guidebook.


Your average PhD is Int 18. Einstein is a prime candidate for the Prodigy template (+2 to an ability and +4 to ability checks and skills involving that ability). He would also definitely be Specialized in physics.

I know Prodigy template's in DMG2 - what's Specialized in?

[Dread_Head]

I know Prodigy template's in DMG2 - what's Specialized in?

It's a trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#specialized).

[hamishspence]

It's a trait (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/characterTraits.htm#specialized).

I remember now - from Unearthed Arcana.