Building a Competent Duelist

[BladeofObliviom]

Okay, I'm currently working on a character for a PF game I was invited to. The DM told me to try to keep it to Core, but also said that he'd accept any Archetypes as long as they can be found in the Pathfinder SRD online. The group seems to be mid-OP with some variation, so rather than going with caster-y shenanigans I figured I'd try running something a bit more grounded. We're starting at level 2, so most of this is me planning ahead, but I'd like to have some idea of what I'm doing.


My basic concept is a middle-aged fellow who walks with a cane and insists that he is neither a priest nor an arcanist of any kind. This is because he's actually a retired soldier with a scholarly bent and a bit of conviction to pull him through the tough times; the cane is a sword cane and the knowledge comes from both experience and study.



In any case, my current build plan looks like this:

Race: Human

1: Fighter (Lore Warden) 1
2: Paladin (Enlightened Paladin) 1
3: Fighter (Lore Warden) 2
4: Fighter (Lore Warden) 3
5: Paladin (Enlightened Paladin) 2
6: Fighter (Lore Warden) 4
7+x: Duelist 1+x

(I doubt the campaign will reach level 17 and thus require me to pick something other than Duelist, but I'll cross that bridge when I come to it if it does.)


The ability scores I rolled were 14, 17, 17, 9, 15, and 15. Not a bad set of rolls at all, and probably better than what I would have had with typical point buy. Knowing that I was going for middle age and that would affect things, I distributed them like this:

Str: 14 (-1 age)
Dex: 17 (-1 age, +2 human)
Con: 15 (-1 age)
Int: 17 (+1 age)
Wis: 9 (+1 age)
Cha: 15 (+1 age)

For a final array of 13, 18, 14, 18, 10, 16. I don't care much about Strength for this, though I kept it high enough for PA if I want it later and for a tiny bit of extra damage even though I'll be finessing. Dex is a priority, so I applied the human bonus to it to keep it as high as possible. Con isn't a priority, but I made sure to have a +2 modifier for enough wiggle room to take a hit or two in melee. Int is my other priority, since Lore Warden benefits heavily from skill points and I want to be able to handle an array of knowledge skills, plus Duelist will benefit from it down the line. Wisdom is unimportant aside from saves, but I don't want a penalty because of saves. Charisma is nice for the Paladin stuff like Divine Grace and Enlightened Paladin's Cha-to-AC in particular.

Saves should be tolerable-to-good. Fortitude will be strongest early, though a high dex score will help with the Reflex saves. The Paladin levels also grant a very-welcome boost to the Will save and of course Divine Grace, which is good for everything with a decent Charisma score and should help keep me a little ahead of the curve across the board.

He'll be pretty good at skills with high intelligence, human, and Lore Warden bumping in extra skill points. The Paladin levels will be a little shorter on skill points but not terrible and Duelist will only lose out on the favored class bonus. I shouldn't have a problem meeting Duelist's skill requirements or most reasonable checks.

I'll have some decent class abilities too; Lore Warden gets a very nice CMB and CMD bonus at level 3, and I'll still get those Fighter Bonus feats. Enlightened Paladin gets a kinda cool ability to declare a foe and get +1 to attack and damage vs them in addition to +1 saves and AC vs. their attacks, which will be nice when I encounter a boss; not as strong as Smite Evil, but works against anything, plus I can flavor it as challenging them to a duel. I'll get Lay on Hands still, which is pretty sexy at lower levels for the swift action healing and patching up the party; It's magic, but I can probably reflavor it.

There's also an ability that amounts to "Detect Monks", which is exactly as useless as it sounds unless the DM throws the Foot Clan at us.







Anyway, my real questions are thus:

1. Is this a viable build for mid-op? I'm expecting to meet some stiff resistance to be sure and death will likely be a meaningful risk, but probably not batman wizards or other optimized enemies, at least not outside of boss-fight-style-encounters.

2. With a not-terrible strength, full BaB, and Lore Warden's bonus, is a maneuver-heavy build viable or a waste of feats? If the former, which maneuvers are worth it? Tripping was okay in 3.5, but maybe there's something I haven't considered.

3. Are my defenses decent? How much effort should I put into shoring them up with magic items, or would those funds be better spent on mobility and other options?

4. I don't have any good sources of bonus damage until Duelist comes online at level 7, which is some ways away.

5. Party composition (that I'm aware of) consists of an archery Rogue, two casters, and two more players that haven't reported in yet. Should it be necessary, could this build perform acceptably as a tank?

6. What kinds of feats should I take? Obviously I'll be wanting Dodge, Mobility, and Weapon Finesse for Duelist, but what else?

7. Does anyone have miscellaneous advice that doesn't fit any of the above questions?

[GreyBlack]

Just throwing this out there, but did you consider the swashbuckler at all for a class? For my money, single classing in Pathfinder rather than multi-classing and gets you slightly more power and still keeps that flavor of the middle-aged swashbuckler duelist. If not, then I would, for my money, just go whole hog with the lore warden and just play up the charisma as flavor.

[gorfnab]

How about some of the Swordlord stuff? Like the Swordlord Prestige Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/swordlord), Swordlord Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/swordlord), etc?

[BWR]

I second the Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler).
Gives you all the awesome stuff from level 1, and you get the single class bonus for most of those levels. Loathe though I am to recommend dipping, one level of Enlightened Paladin would probably do a lot of good, what with the Swashbuckler's focus on Charisma.

[Firest Kathon]

If you can convince your DM to accept things outside of core, have a look at the Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) feat from DSP's Path of War. It gives you Dex instead of Str for weapon damage.

Also interesting is the Feat Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat), which is basically Power Attack for light weapons. Besides the Player Companion listed on the linked page it also appears in DSP's Ultimate Psionics.

[Psyren]

Ooh, Enlightened Paladin looks fun! I need to read through ISC.

[Ssalarn]

I second the Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler).
Gives you all the awesome stuff from level 1, and you get the single class bonus for most of those levels. Loathe though I am to recommend dipping, one level of Enlightened Paladin would probably do a lot of good, what with the Swashbuckler's focus on Charisma.

The Daring Champion Cavalier archetype can also give you a lot of the fun duelist stuff on a sturdier chassis.

To the OP's questions:

1) It's not bad. Note that once you actually start hitting the point where your build plans on picking up Duelist levels is where maneuvers start becoming less reliable/powerful. Lore Warden should help with the reliability portion of things though.

2) Since you've said you're using Weapon Finesse, you should be fine. You can use DEX with any maneuver you can perform with a finessable weapon, so your ability to successfully pull off maneuvers should be acceptable.

3) Low Will is a big weakness; looks like you've done what you can to shore it up with the Paladin levels though.

4) I didn't see a question here, but I agree with your statement. Piranha Strike might help a bit.

5) Eehhh.... Reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, you can probably do the job of "mitigating damage to my teammates" reasonably well. You're going to be treading a thin line though, since you'll be less durable than most dedicated tank-types.

6) Combat Reflexes is a must, what with your high Dex and CMB, and it'll help with that tanking thing. Piranha Strike is basically Power Attack for Dex-based characters, another big item for you. The Improved and possibly Greater versions of the feats for one or two lines of maneuvers is probably also a good idea; Disarm and Trip are probably the two best maneuvers when they apply but depending on the campaign you could be using them anywhere from constantly to never. Improved/Greater/Quick Dirty Trick can give you a handy debuff ability, especially since blinded is one of the options.

7) I don't want to change the idea you have for the character's backstory, so no, not really.


Ooh, Enlightened Paladin looks fun! I need to read through ISC.

It was a surprisingly fun book. Definitely a purchase I was pleased with.

[Psyren]

It was a surprisingly fun book. Definitely a purchase I was pleased with.

Oh yeah, I got it (and ISM) but I haven't sat down and really read it.

[BladeofObliviom]

Just throwing this out there, but did you consider the swashbuckler at all for a class? For my money, single classing in Pathfinder rather than multi-classing and gets you slightly more power and still keeps that flavor of the middle-aged swashbuckler duelist. If not, then I would, for my money, just go whole hog with the lore warden and just play up the charisma as flavor.


How about some of the Swordlord stuff? Like the Swordlord Prestige Class (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/s-z/swordlord), Swordlord Fighter Archetype (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/paizo---fighter-archetypes/swordlord), etc?


I second the Swashbuckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/swashbuckler).
Gives you all the awesome stuff from level 1, and you get the single class bonus for most of those levels. Loathe though I am to recommend dipping, one level of Enlightened Paladin would probably do a lot of good, what with the Swashbuckler's focus on Charisma.


If you can convince your DM to accept things outside of core, have a look at the Deadly Agility (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats#TOC-Deadly-Agility-Combat-) feat from DSP's Path of War. It gives you Dex instead of Str for weapon damage.

Also interesting is the Feat Piranha Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/piranha-strike-combat), which is basically Power Attack for light weapons. Besides the Player Companion listed on the linked page it also appears in DSP's Ultimate Psionics.


The Daring Champion Cavalier archetype can also give you a lot of the fun duelist stuff on a sturdier chassis.

To the OP's questions:

1) It's not bad. Note that once you actually start hitting the point where your build plans on picking up Duelist levels is where maneuvers start becoming less reliable/powerful. Lore Warden should help with the reliability portion of things though.

2) Since you've said you're using Weapon Finesse, you should be fine. You can use DEX with any maneuver you can perform with a finessable weapon, so your ability to successfully pull off maneuvers should be acceptable.

3) Low Will is a big weakness; looks like you've done what you can to shore it up with the Paladin levels though.

4) I didn't see a question here, but I agree with your statement. Piranha Strike might help a bit.

5) Eehhh.... Reach weapon, Combat Reflexes, you can probably do the job of "mitigating damage to my teammates" reasonably well. You're going to be treading a thin line though, since you'll be less durable than most dedicated tank-types.

6) Combat Reflexes is a must, what with your high Dex and CMB, and it'll help with that tanking thing. Piranha Strike is basically Power Attack for Dex-based characters, another big item for you. The Improved and possibly Greater versions of the feats for one or two lines of maneuvers is probably also a good idea; Disarm and Trip are probably the two best maneuvers when they apply but depending on the campaign you could be using them anywhere from constantly to never. Improved/Greater/Quick Dirty Trick can give you a handy debuff ability, especially since blinded is one of the options.

7) I don't want to change the idea you have for the character's backstory, so no, not really.



It was a surprisingly fun book. Definitely a purchase I was pleased with.


Thanks for all the advice! Unfortunately, the point is moot because I talked to the DM again and I actually misunderstood him; he really did mean core-only, since those are the only books he has. When he said Archetypes, he meant archetypes as a literary construct rather than a rules construct, and was suggesting the Pathfinder SRD in case I didn't have the books. So I'll have to start over. Bleh.

More annoyingly, the other players showed up with 2 Melee Warrior types, a Blaster Sorcerer, and an Archery Rogue. So I'm probably going to roll up a Cleric so everyone doesn't die. Thankfully Cleric's a powerful class that's pretty hard to screw up short of playing a particularly inefficient healbot, so I'll likely be fine. Thanks anyway!